Drizzt Do'urden vs.... T'challa

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Sin I AM
Fight occurs in the jungle at night.

The dark elf has both scimitars, the panther figurine, the bracers, and catties bow and lightning arrows.

The avenger is at classic levels, has the ebony blade, his blessed armor, and Rogers shield. (for the threads sake he is equally as skilled with the shield).


bp is able to call on Shuri anytime the panther comes into play thru out the fight.

Discuss

srankmissingnin
Panther stomps. You could throw in Drizzt current crew, Artemis and Dahlia, and T'Challa would still win.

Charon's Claw is out tomorrow though. I'm excited! big grin

Sin I AM
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Panther stomps. You could throw in Drizzt current crew, Artemis and Dahlia, and T'Challa would still win.

Charon's Claw is out tomorrow though. I'm excited! big grin

U feel like panther could solo? He'd be hard pressed to take DD on he's atleast peak human

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Sin I AM
U feel like panther could solo? He'd be hard pressed to take DD on he's atleast peak human

In a feat war Drizzt is woefully out gunned. Panther would wreak him.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
In a feat war Drizzt is woefully out gunned. Panther would wreak him.

Meh, I suppose from a graphic point of view but FR has retold the first six books in comic adaption that does him justice

srankmissingnin
Even then Drizzt is more of a Nighttrasher level guy than Panther level.

leonidas
nightthrasher?? nice.... don't hear that name pulled out often. as for the thread--i don't haveeven the tiniest clue. carry on. big grin

Digi
T'Challa would not stomp. I'm ok with someone saying he'd win, especially with the shield, but it would be damn close. I'd actually take Drizzt in this fight though. I believe his sheer speed (both with the blades and manuevering/running) would be enough to overcome T'Challa.

Guen is also a factor. I mean, intelligent beasts of Guen's size and skill aren't exactly fodder for BP, and everyone involved is more than comfortable in this setting.

Combine all his toys and allow him Guen, and Drizzt is the equal of quite a few low metas. BP blurs that line as well, especially with the equipment you gave him, so this is a good fight.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Even then Drizzt is more of a Nighttrasher level guy than Panther level.

nightthrasher? Lol I think your.lowballing here, DD due to his natural heritage has peak human attributes, on top of the fact that he's in possession of the bracers that make him superhuman in speed and hes arguable one of the best swordsman in literature the guys no pushover. And that's not even accounting for his magical abilities

the ninjak
Did little research and found Drizzt to be a Dark Elf from the Forgotten Realms series......good times.

Though my experience is solely through the early 90's PC DnD gaming series.
The nerd in you is strong Sin.

I haven't read any DnD comics but the spells they had in that series should make a high level warrior close to Doom in regards to sneaky spells.


stick out tongue

Sin I AM
Originally posted by the ninjak
Did little research and found Drizzt to be a Dark Elf from the Forgotten Realms series......good times.

Though my experience is solely through the early 90's PC DnD gaming series.
The nerd in you is strong Sin.

I haven't read any DnD comics but the spells they had in that series should make a high level warrior close to Doom in regards to sneaky spells.


stick out tongue

Just want a slight change of pace here in thr forum. But I was a DM since 12 smile anywho I wouldn't place him that high, he is a exceptional fighter with alot of innate and magical abilities. He's not stomping bp but he is more than a.good match for him

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Sin I AM
nightthrasher? Lol I think your.lowballing here, DD due to his natural heritage has peak human attributes, on top of the fact that he's in possession of the bracers that make him superhuman in speed and hes arguable one of the best swordsman in literature the guys no pushover. And that's not even accounting for his magical abilities

I don't think so.

There isn't some universal "peak human" constant that every genre universe agreed would be the standard. Based off of feats comic book peak humans are simply physically better than those of FR. Batman - for example - has better speed feats without Bracers of the Blinding Strike on his ankles. On paper this might seem like a good match, but if you compare feats and accomplishments side by side I honestly believe this to be a spite thread. Panther has significantly better strength, speed and skill feats than Drizzt.

I can name about a dozen better swords men than Drizzt of the top of my head from various High Fantasy and Sword and Sorcery novels... some of who would stomp Drizzt and still get tooled out by Panther.

leonidas
lancelot du lac--greatest swordsmen in all the worlds. fionavar tapestry. if you've not read it i envy you and what you have to look forward to. sad

Digi
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I don't think so.

There isn't some universal "peak human" constant that every genre universe agreed would be the standard. Based off of feats comic book peak humans are simply physically better than those of FR. Batman - for example - has better speed feats without Bracers of the Blinding Strike on his ankles. On paper this might seem like a good match, but if you compare feats and accomplishments side by side I honestly believe this to be a spite thread. Panther has significantly better strength, speed and skill feats than Drizzt.

I can name about a dozen better swords men than Drizzt of the top of my head from various High Fantasy and Sword and Sorcery novels... some of who would stomp Drizzt and still get tooled out by Panther.

I guess there's a disconnect then. Not going to argue the point - you and Sin/I just have different ideas of the power ranges within that universe. I think Drizzt is more than a match for Panther, but the fundamental disagreement between our perspectives is too basic to be reconciled through debate.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by leonidas
lancelot du lac--greatest swordsmen in all the worlds. fionavar tapestry. if you've not read it i envy you and what you have to look forward to. sad

Cyrano de Bergerac cool

leonidas
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Cyrano de Bergerac cool

really? that's news to me. he'd need to be pretty good to be better than lancelot....

Newjak
This takes me back to the first low meta/street level hero tourney I was in.

Someone draft Drizzt.

I also played DnD for a bit although not for very long. He is a beast

Sin I AM
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I don't think so.

There isn't some universal "peak human" constant that every genre universe agreed would be the standard. Based off of feats comic book peak humans are simply physically better than those of FR. Batman - for example - has better speed feats without Bracers of the Blinding Strike on his ankles. On paper this might seem like a good match, but if you compare feats and accomplishments side by side I honestly believe this to be a spite thread. Panther has significantly better strength, speed and skill feats than Drizzt.

I can name about a dozen better swords men than Drizzt of the top of my head from various High Fantasy and Sword and Sorcery novels... some of who would stomp Drizzt and still get tooled out by Panther.

Hmmm, where would u place him?

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Digi
I guess there's a disconnect then. Not going to argue the point - you and Sin/I just have different ideas of the power ranges within that universe. I think Drizzt is more than a match for Panther, but the fundamental disagreement between our perspectives is too basic to be reconciled through debate.

/shrug

I don't know... the difference seems blatantly obvious to me. Just for example, there has been several times in the books where Drizzt or Artemis have lamented against engaging a "score" of (which I think is twenty) orcs - or what have you - and how they can't win the contest straight up (and they've had back up with them in most of those instances). Alternatively Daredevil will just jump in and fight 200 super human Yakuza juiced on Mutant Growth Hormone... and win. The difference between Drizzt and a comic peak human is pretty glaring.

There are certain obvious exceptions, but for the most part fictional swords men / martial artists from novels just can't content with their comic book counter parts. in the same way that that human comic book swords men / martial artists are typically outgunned by the anime / manga equivalents.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Hmmm, where would u place him?

Not sure. There are so many amazing swords men in fiction that it would be a daunting task to come up with a top 100 list... and that's just looking at novels and not comics / movies / anime.

But just for an example there are dozens of characters in David Gemmel books that I would say are more skilled than Drizzt, some by a decent margin.

Sin I AM
I'll take that, but I think your reaching a bit here with the dd analogy. That is an example of pis, it's just not reasonable for Matt to trounce so many super powered villians so easily without assistance.

I try to gauge both characters powersets across each medium by using their averages, and also taken into account that henchmen are just that fodder, their ease of defeat or lack thereof is plot induced.

It's like one omac giving superman pause, then the next scene he's plowing thru them

the ninjak
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Just want a slight change of pace here in thr forum. But I was a DM since 12 smile anywho I wouldn't place him that high, he is a exceptional fighter with alot of innate and magical abilities. He's not stomping bp but he is more than a.good match for him

wink Damn I wish I knew girls like you.

What are Drizzt's feats?

Sin I AM
http://www.comicvine.com/drizzt-dourden/29-43472/?full_site=true

Go to Barnes and Nobles me and my friends loiter there for hours although their more into japanime than me

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Sin I AM
I'll take that, but I think your reaching a bit here with the dd analogy. That is an example of pis, it's just not reasonable for Matt to trounce so many super powered villians so easily without assistance.

I try to gauge both characters powersets across each medium by using their averages, and also taken into account that henchmen are just that fodder, their ease of defeat or lack thereof is plot induced.

It's like one omac giving superman pause, then the next scene he's plowing thru them

The MGH pushes it over the top, but it's not the only time DD has engaged a group in the triple digits and won, and he isn't the only character who has done it either. Batman, Cap, they've all done it. The level these guys operate on is far and above the level Drizzt is at. Drizzt's best speed feat is whirl winding his swords and deflecting arrows / cross bow bolt. Batman can turn on a dime and catch arrows out of the arrow while they are fired on his turned back... and that doesn't even warrant a place in a list of Batman's best speed feats. IMO There is just huge disparity between the established capabilities of these characters.

ares834
Are the Drizzet comics just comic adaptations of the novels or are they original stories?

Sin I AM
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The MGH pushes it over the top, but it's not the only time DD has engaged a group in the triple digits and won, and he isn't the only character who has done it either. Batman, Cap, they've all done it. The level these guys operate on is far and above the level Drizzt is at. Drizzt's best speed feat is whirl winding his swords and deflecting arrows / cross bow bolt. Batman can turn on a dime and catch arrows out of the arrow while they are fired on his turned back... and that doesn't even warrant a place in a list of Batman's best speed feats. IMO There is just huge disparity between the established capabilities of these characters.

Fodder is fodder regardless if its ten ninjas or a hundred goblins. You seem to grant the mgh hordes some great advantages over the orcs n trolls of the realms when most campaign setting characters have fighting skills as opposed to comic analogues. It's not like BP is gonna wade thru a group of high streets

Originally posted by ares834
Are the Drizzet comics just comic adaptations of the novels or are they original stories?

The former

Digi
Originally posted by the ninjak
wink Damn I wish I knew girls like you.

What are Drizzt's feats?

He exists almost solely in books, so there's no real documentation.

He's a dark elf master swordsman, who was the best among an entire race of creatures whose lives are spent training for martial combat or magic.

He has an onyx figurine that can summon an 800lb panther, who is semi-intelligent and can respond to commands and battle strategies.

He has two scimitars, one was recovered from an ice dragon's lair and can negate the effects of intense heat on the bearer, even going so far as to extinguish many flames. The other is diamond-edged.

His skill as a swordsman is rivaled by few, and he can move as a blur to average combatants. He also wears enchanted bracers which enhance his running speed and foot dexterity.

Consistent with his race's innate abilities, he can summon globes of absolute darkness, through which no light can pierce. He can summon these globes a considerable distance away from him if needed. He can also switch his vision to detect heat (infrared?) to give himself an advantage at night or in darkness. His senses are also considerably refined, though they are not enhanced by any magical means.

He currently also wields a bow that has infinite ammo, and whose arrows strike with lightning blasts and can cut through rock.

He can also summon a unicorn. This is used more as a mount than a fighting partner, but has proven itself adept at combat as well.

If you accept that his physical stats and skill are on par with those in the "high street" comic tier, his trinkets and abilities push him to low meta. Not all think this, however.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
/shrug

I don't know... the difference seems blatantly obvious to me. Just for example, there has been several times in the books where Drizzt or Artemis have lamented against engaging a "score" of (which I think is twenty) orcs - or what have you - and how they can't win the contest straight up (and they've had back up with them in most of those instances). Alternatively Daredevil will just jump in and fight 200 super human Yakuza juiced on Mutant Growth Hormone... and win. The difference between Drizzt and a comic peak human is pretty glaring.

There are certain obvious exceptions, but for the most part fictional swords men / martial artists from novels just can't content with their comic book counter parts. in the same way that that human comic book swords men / martial artists are typically outgunned by the anime / manga equivalents.

I think your orc example just has more to do with comics and their treatment of "fodder" characters. Whereas Salvatore will describe an entire fight sequence involving, say, 6 orcs, comics will gloss over it. Thus, it wouldn't make any sense to have him casually dismiss 100 orcs in a page or two. It's narrative more than power-based. His skill and precision are about as good as one can be without being superhumanly fast, and he is superhumanly fast at times due to the bracers. Anyway, if those Yakuza were all high-street-ish and not utter fodder, then DD running through them is one of the worst cases of PIS ever.

Guen can't be discounted either, making it a 2-on-1 in any fight where the figurine is considered standard equipment.

I'd also contend that Drizzt has faced such odds more than once, though not always in sheer numbers (trolls, giants, etc. count for more than individual goblins, for example). I don't know if he'd clear the Yakuza gauntlet you mentioned, but I think he'd fare pretty well, and manage the fight to his advantage.

I don't doubt that comics in general > novel characters. However, I don't think the skill gap is that wide in this case, if it exists at all, and all of his other abilities and items puts him above nearly any street character.

leonidas
Originally posted by Digi

I don't doubt that comics in general > novel characters.

shifty

Digi
Originally posted by leonidas
shifty

So...Drizzt wins.

no expression

BlueFnord
As much as I love Drizzt and Guenhwyvar (grew up playing 2nd edition FR) I think BP comes out on top. Extremely hard fought battle though.

leonidas
Originally posted by Digi
So...Drizzt wins.

no expression

shifty

Sin I AM
Originally posted by BlueFnord
As much as I love Drizzt and Guenhwyvar (grew up playing 2nd edition FR) I think BP comes out on top. Extremely hard fought battle though. what does bp bring to the table that pushes him over the top

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Fodder is fodder regardless if its ten ninjas or a hundred goblins. You seem to grant the mgh hordes some great advantages over the orcs n trolls of the realms when most campaign setting characters have fighting skills as opposed to comic analogues. It's not like BP is gonna wade thru a group of high streets


The former

Fodder may always be fodder, but beating ten enemies is always more impressive than beating one, and beating a hundred is more impressive that ten. In terms of scale, comic book streets operate on a different level then the Companions of the Hall, everything Drizzt and crew do, comic streets do bigger and better.

Originally posted by Digi
I think your orc example just has more to do with comics and their treatment of "fodder" characters. Whereas Salvatore will describe an entire fight sequence involving, say, 6 orcs, comics will gloss over it. Thus, it wouldn't make any sense to have him casually dismiss 100 orcs in a page or two. It's narrative more than power-based. His skill and precision are about as good as one can be without being superhumanly fast, and he is superhumanly fast at times due to the bracers. Anyway, if those Yakuza were all high-street-ish and not utter fodder, then DD running through them is one of the worst cases of PIS ever.

Guen can't be discounted either, making it a 2-on-1 in any fight where the figurine is considered standard equipment.

I'd also contend that Drizzt has faced such odds more than once, though not always in sheer numbers (trolls, giants, etc. count for more than individual goblins, for example). I don't know if he'd clear the Yakuza gauntlet you mentioned, but I think he'd fare pretty well, and manage the fight to his advantage.

I don't doubt that comics in general > novel characters. However, I don't think the skill gap is that wide in this case, if it exists at all, and all of his other abilities and items puts him above nearly any street character.

Salvatore could write a fight scene where Drizzt kills 1000 orcs, as easily he can write a scene where he fights ten. Drizzt isn't operating at a smaller scale do to some inherent limitation of the medium, because the only limitations of the written word is the imagination of the writer. He is depicted at operating at the levels he operates at... because that's what the author has in mind. RA Salvatore still up holds some pretense that these characters are around human levels... Marvel and DC long ago stopped pretending that their top streets were in the realm of humanly possible. I don't see how you can just ignore the fact that characters like Panther routinely engage scores of enemies in martial combat against on their own and win. Beating 100 men is more impressive then beating 10. It's ten times more impressive. I know you really don't want to concede that Panther and the other streets have better feats... but what is you rationalization behind your stance that Drizzt is a match for these guys? If you don't dismiss Black Panther's accomplishments off hand, then a simple side by side comparison of the relative speed, strength and skill feats of these characters is going to lean HEAVILY in T'Challa's favour. I'm really curious as to why you think Drizzt stands a chance... because right now it just seems like something you've arbitrarily decided with nothing concrete to base it on. If you aren't going to base your opinion on the accomplishments of the characters... why even bother.


I don't think Guen matters... I think Panther could solo the entire Companions of the Hall.

Digi
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Salvatore could write a fight scene where Drizzt kills 1000 orcs, as easily he can write a scene where he fights ten. Drizzt isn't operating at a smaller scale do to some inherent limitation of the medium, because the only limitations of the written word is the imagination of the writer. He is depicted at operating at the levels he operates at... because that's what the author has in mind. RA Salvatore still up holds some pretense that these characters are around human levels... Marvel and DC long ago stopped pretending that their top streets were in the realm of humanly possible. I don't see how you can just ignore the fact that characters like Panther routinely engage scores of enemies in martial combat against on their own and win. Beating 100 men is more impressive then beating 10. It's ten times more impressive. I know you really don't want to concede that Panther and the other streets have better feats... but what is you rationalization behind your stance that Drizzt is a match for these guys? If you don't dismiss Black Panther's accomplishments off hand, then a simple side by side comparison of the relative speed, strength and skill feats of these characters is going to lean HEAVILY in T'Challa's favour. I'm really curious as to why you think Drizzt stands a chance... because right now it just seems like something you've arbitrarily decided with nothing concrete to base it on. If you aren't going to base your opinion on the accomplishments of the characters... why even bother.


I don't think Guen matters... I think Panther could solo the entire Companions of the Hall.

Well, I think you downplay Drizzt's best feats. He's waded into indeterminate amounts of baddies before and done well...I'm thinking of, for example, when he went into "Hunter" mode during the big orc war. Also as mentioned, some of the harder-to-pin-down encounters, like he and Wulfgar in the save of...was it giants? Anyway, he has at least a few such feats, and guys like that are orders of magnitude tougher than similarly-numbered fodder.

Again, though, I don't know that fodder count should be our primary gauge.

I also think he routinely moves as fast as anything BP does. Perhaps BP best feats trump Drizzt's, I'm not a BP expert despite knowing as much about him as the average comic book and Avengers nerd, but Drizzt has faster-than-perception hand and feet feats, and he's also incredibly consistent in his ability and power...probably the benefit of having a single writer.

The arrows have slight AoE and Drizzt can fire off entire volleys while under duress until they're in melee range. And I think you're woefully undersell Guen.

Soloing the Companions...well, like I said, the disconnect is too great. We're not going to find common ground here.

BlueFnord
Originally posted by Sin I AM
what does bp bring to the table that pushes him over the top

He can tank whatever arrows he doesnt dodge . Dropping globes of darkness and levitating aren't going to fool BP. While Drizzt is impeccable in melee I don't see Icingdeath and Twinkle getting past the suit. BP wears him down then ko's imo. He brings peak human stats ,superior senses, his fighting skill, and his vibranium suit that help push him past . Convince me how Drizzt wins.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by BlueFnord
He can tank whatever arrows he doesnt dodge . Dropping globes of darkness and levitating aren't going to fool BP. While Drizzt is impeccable in melee I don't see Icingdeath and Twinkle getting past the suit. BP wears him down then ko's imo. He brings peak human stats ,superior senses, his fighting skill, and his vibranium suit that help push him past . Convince me how Drizzt wins.

Digi pretty much summed it up earlier. Drizzt is a force of nature when he goes feral with those scimitars and transforms into the hunter. The vibranium suit of BPs isn't tanking an enchanted sword slash nor will his senses aid him in a globe of magical darkness

Dream Stuff
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Fodder may always be fodder, but beating ten enemies is always more impressive than beating one

What a strange statement. This whole argument seems to rely upon two unlike things being roughly equivalent simply because of some affinity with the word "fodder." But the expectation that 10 of one thing is 10x as impressive as 1 of a different thing is patently ridiculous. How many hand ninjas would it take to defeat 10 new york city purse-snatchers?

For the record, I agree that BP wins a feat war with Drzzt any day and should win this fight (his equipment plays a big role).

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Dream Stuff
What a strange statement. This whole argument seems to rely upon two unlike things being roughly equivalent simply because of some affinity with the word "fodder." But the expectation that 10 of one thing is 10x as impressive as 1 of a different thing is patently ridiculous. How many hand ninjas would it take to defeat 10 new york city purse-snatchers?

For the record, I agree that BP wins a feat war with Drzzt any day and should win this fight (his equipment plays a big role).

If you are going to bother responding to something, it would behoove you to read the previous posts to get an understanding the context the statement was provided in...

Sin said something like "fodder is fodder, 10 ninjas or 100 goblins, it doesn't matter." The implication being that the number of enemies is irrelevant, and the mere fact that the example involves fodder equalizes all the feats regardless of the number. I suppose there is an inherent implication that all fodder is equal in her post as well, but I was merely addressing the number element. Acknowledging a hypothetical hierarchy of fodder was not germane to the point was making.

Sin I AM
i believe it to be true. i just think that quality overrides quantity.... Feats like those dont necessarily mean BP is heads and shoulders above the rest. Im more impressed with him beating crossbones or batroc in h2h instead of 100 hand ninjas...

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