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Any names pop in mind?

My my top best would be:

1. Luke
2. Yoda
3. Mace
4. Sidious
5. Dooku
6. Caedus
7. Bane
8. Kas'im
9. Maul
10. Obi-Wan

Luke is pretty much undisputedly number 1.

Certainly wouldn't put Maul in the top ten though. There are plenty of others who have shown more skill.

Luke takes number 1 in just about anything.
But I agree, there have been better showings than anything Maul can do.

Originally posted by ares834
Certainly wouldn't put Maul in the top ten though. There are plenty of others who have shown more skill.

Like....

Zannah, Anakin, Katarn, etc...

Zannah--dunno much about her saber skill.

Damn... I forgot about Anakin and Katarn

Zannah survived a fight with Bane in his Orbalisks when he was actually trying to kill her. That alone is a major testament to her skill.

1. Irek Ismaren.
Takes on with sabers Luke, Mara, Tahiri and 16 Yuuzhan Vong SIMULTANEOUSLY.

2. Luke
3.Caedus
4. Windu
5. Yoda
6. Palpatine
7. Jaina
8. Mara
9. Dooku
10. Kenobi

Bane era not considered.

Irek Ismaren had no training is lightsaber combat at all. It was all instinct. Therefore I don't think he can be called the best duelist.

And what've you got against the Bane era, punk?

I don't put Caedus in the top 10 and definitely not above Bane. If we're going to go all the way back then even Raskta Lsu is a more technically-proficient duelist.

Caedus only managed to survive as long as he did against Luke on the Anakin because of the surroundings and even without Ben's interference he would have been finished.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Irek Ismaren had no training is lightsaber combat at all. It was all instinct. Therefore I don't think he can be called the best duelist.

And what've you got against the Bane era, punk?
True. But looking at tables it seems that people take power into consideration on first place. And skill is not mentioned either.

I've got nothing against Bane era, I didn't read it, emo!
Well, to be honest all those debates made me overcritical to Drew's material. I enjoyed Revan novel but after I entered this forum and began analyzing feats, I can't Force myself to ignore his "cool" game like Force portrayal. Was in long dilemma but after I found that he portrays Force statis from Kotor as legitimate power in one of the Bane books, that was too much for me. I just skipped all of that to Plagueis novel and it's damn good.

Irek Ismaren's also a big cyborg with 7 sabers drawing from a force nexus.



Agreed. I'd put the top Jedi and Sith from most eras higher.

Especially given how thoroughly he gets his ass kicked in the upcoming novel.

Sure, his opponent was pretty fawking good, but such a humiliating defeat isn't worthy of the best.


Here's a thought: Nomi Sunrider. She doesn't have a lot of feats, but as I recall she wielded her lightsaber like a master on her first try.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Here's a thought: Nomi Sunrider. She doesn't have a lot of feats, but as I recall she wielded her lightsaber like a master on her first try.

Yea, she was a natural, though most of her really impressive feats were force feats.

Of course, bringing up her brings up Ulic and Exar, both masters with a saber.

I'd give all three of those, Krayt, etc. wins over Maul.

I think part of it with Maul is that one, he was in line to replace Sidious at some point and two, he looked too badass not to be one of the best. As things stand though it's clear that Sidious likely saw him as a thorough errand-boy more than someone who would really follow him as leader of the Sith.

As I hear in Plagueis, Sidious views him more like a pet than an apprentice.

Yes. Maul, if he'd ever become Sith Master, was still well away from it.

Irek Ismaren's also a big cyborg with 7 sabers drawing from a force nexus.
He showed all his lightsaber feats before drawing on Force nexus.


Lightsaber duel prowess has nothing to do with Sith philosophy and arcane teachings he had no access to.

Originally posted by Arhael
Lightsaber duel prowess has nothing to do with Sith philosophy and arcane teachings he had no access to.

Since he was Sith Apprentice, I figure Sidious was teaching him *some*, and'd teach him more as he grew stronger. But he was at the shallow end of the pool in PM.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As I hear in Plagueis, Sidious views him more like a pet than an apprentice.

Originally posted by Arhael



Lightsaber duel prowess has nothing to do with Sith philosophy and arcane teachings he had no access to.

Originally posted by Q99
Since he was Sith Apprentice, I figure Sidious was teaching him *some*, and'd teach him more as he grew stronger. But he was at the shallow end of the pool in PM.

Well according to Dave Filoni Maul is well trained In All The Ways of the Sith. He also says Maul has a lot of knowledge on Why Sidious is so successful as a Sith Lord.

So he was obviously taught quite a bit.

On another note not sure why people are rating Obi-Wan above Maul considering they've fought a few times now and if anything Maul's usually been shown to be the superior combatant.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

On another note not sure why people are rating Obi-Wan above Maul considering they've fought a few times now and if anything Maul's usually been shown to be the superior combatant.

Probably because Obi-wan continues to improve and his win against Anakin is incredibly impressive.

Originally posted by Q99
Probably because Obi-wan continues to improve and his win against Anakin is incredibly impressive.

From what the novel is saying Maul is also becoming more powerful as the war goes on. His next fight with Obi-Wan will be in the very next episode, and Maul definitely grows more powerful after that fight as he trains Savage and as his anger grows.

Anyway considering all the accounts from the EU and from Dave Filoni's statements about how skilled and well trained Maul is, I personally have a very hard time seeing any version of Kenobi being above Maul at the height of his power.

How does suit Vader compare to Maul in sabers?

Poorly. He only uses one.

Though in skill I'd go with Vader.

I'd give Strength and Power to Vader. Speed and Mobility to Maul.

Both have great skill. But if I was to give anyone the edge in skill then it would probably be Maul.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Both have great skill. But if I was to give anyone the edge in skill then it would probably be Maul.

I'm just thinking of the number of masters and knights that Vader has beaten down. He's got a good deal more experience.

In terms of overall power my list would be

Tier 1:Palpatine,Darth Tyranus/Count Dooku,Mace Windu,Yoda,Anakin Sywalker
Tier 2:Obi Wan Kenobi(ROTS),OT Darth Vader
Tier 3:Maul,Kit Fisto,Ki Adi Mundi,Shaak Ti,Plo Koon,Depa Billba,General Grievous,Qui Gon Jinn

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Any names pop in mind?

My my top best would be:

1. Luke
2. Yoda
3. Mace
4. Sidious
5. Dooku
6. Caedus
7. Bane
8. Kas'im
9. Maul
10. Obi-Wan Tulak Hord is the greatest lightsaber duelists to have ever lived.

Lol

Originally posted by ares834
Lol

He is entitle to his opinion guys.

Originally posted by ares834
Lol

Kao Cen Darach's blade-work is also amazing. He was able use a double-bladed lightsaber in conjunction with a normal lightsaber with great skill in a duel.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Tulak Hord is the greatest lightsaber duelists to have ever lived.
Tulak Hord is a legendary duelist from ancient times. But nothing suggests that he was the greatest ever.

Khem in the Inquisitor storyline of TOR tells some stories that make him seem pretty legitimately amazing. Soloing armies and such, which I know you get wet over.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Khem in the Inquisitor storyline of TOR tells some stories that make him seem pretty legitimately amazing. Soloing armies and such, which I know you get wet over.
Well, if this is true then this guy would logically rank among the best in history at least.

Tulak Hord's story should be deeply explored IMO.

Kas'im was the most knowledgeable and well-trained master of the lightsaber. He studied and improved his technical skills for decades. Luke Skywalker proved most prodigious and was the quickest learner, it was a sixth sense if you will. He was able to instantly learn Form V during his duel with Vader aboard the second Death Star. He was a freak.

Originally posted by Dolos
Kas'im was the most knowledgeable and well-trained master of the lightsaber. He studied and improved his technical skills for decades.

In Bane's opinion and nothing more.

Obi-Wan is the most skilled duelist.

He handed Maul and Savage their asses, after all.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
In Bane's opinion and nothing more.

No he literally spent about thirty years perfecting his mastery of seven lightsaber forms, his proficiency with three different types of lightsabers, and his technical skills.

As far as who could win a lightsaber duel that would be Mace Windu, Luke Skywalker, but that's beside the point - most of that comes from the Force.

Originally posted by Dolos
No he literally spent about thirty years perfecting his mastery of seven lightsaber forms, his proficiency with three different types of lightsabers, and his technical skills.

I was referring to the appellation of "the most knowledgeable and well-trained" duelist ever. All that is strictly by Bane's estimation and there's no reason to assume he'd be in a position to know and judge accurately.

Have to put Maul in here now after the Dual Saber Uberness he displayed against Sidious.

Originally posted by Dolos
No he literally spent about thirty years perfecting his mastery
And Yoda 800, so what?

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Obi-Wan is the most skilled duelist.

He handed Maul and Savage their asses, after all.

Well yeah.

his sword fighting against the brothers was actually better than Sidious's.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Have to put Maul in here now after the Dual Saber Uberness he displayed against Sidious.

His 'uberness' lasted about 30 seconds or less... He got his ass handed to him and begged for his life.

Not saying he isn't a good saber duelist.

One thing I like? As you know, I'm a legacy fan and I like Krayt & Co.

One of A'Sharad's good showings... is against Obi-wan at his peak, not long after all these Clone Wars fights.

So stuff that establishes Obi-Wan as good, in turn helps establish the level there.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
His 'uberness' lasted about 30 seconds or less... He got his ass handed to him and begged for his life.

Not saying he isn't a good saber duelist.

It's not about the length of the duel, it's about how close it was. There was clearly a Level of parity in that duel.

And he begged for his life after Sidious starting using his Force powers on him. That has no relevance to a discussion on best Saber duelists.

There was no parity. How many times is Tempest going to have to point out that Sidious 'never wavered from his position of superiority' before you guys get that?

Originally posted by Nephthys
There was no parity. How many times is Tempest going to have to point out that Sidious 'never wavered from his position of superiority' before you guys get that?

I am passing the torch to you, my child. Now immolate them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
There was no parity. How many times is Tempest going to have to point out that Sidious 'never wavered from his position of superiority' before you guys get that?

And what does that have to do with Saber ability?

His superior position over Maul was through superior force powers every time.

If you didn't see anything even close to parity in the last Saber duel then I really don't know what you were seeing.

Originally posted by Nephthys
There was no parity. How many times is Tempest going to have to point out that Sidious 'never wavered from his position of superiority' before you guys get that?



Now the torch is yours.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And what does that have to do with Saber ability?

His superior position over Maul was through superior force powers every time.

If you didn't see anything even close to parity in the last Saber duel then I really don't know what you were seeing.

The majority of the fight was a lightsaber duel. The quote says that he NEVER wavered in his superiority. Do the math.

He had his Force powers available to him the whole fight and used them to keep his position of superiority.

Opress gets past his defenses and knocks him off the balcony. Sidious uses his force powers to grab both brothers and pull them down. Hence keeping his position of superiority.

Maul and Opress tiring Sidious in Sabers, so he floors Opress and knocks Maul out with his Superior force powers. Hence keeping his position of superiority.

Those moments where you say he's pressed would invalidate the quote, as that would be Sidious wavering in his superiority. You do know what wavering means right? Its exactly what you're describing.

Besides having "a level of parity" in the saber duel (which was how I put it) doesn't even contradict Sidious winning the Saber duel. But the quotes from the site and from Filoni are all referring to the All Out combat which Sidious was winning by a significant margin.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Those moments where you say he's pressed would invalidate the quote, as that would be Sidious wavering in his superiority. You do know what wavering means right? Its exactly what you're describing.

And your taking the quote too literally. Your saying he was superior every second? How exactly was he in the superior position when Opress knocked him off the balcony? Please enlighten me.

Any element of parity contradicts Sidious never wavering in his superiority.

Savage's attack didn't even seem to tickle him. I wouldn't be surprised if he let Savage hit him, thats how little he seemed to care. In fact, moving into a more open area only benefited him.

No, because he was still FAR superior in the all out. So it doesn't at all.

http://nefariouslabs.r30.net/Dead%20Horse.jpg

This isn't a ****ing forum fight. There is no divide between sabers and all-out. They were in a lightsaber duel. You are saying they were on par in the lightsaber duel. If that were true, that would be Sidious wavering in his superiority. End of story.

Originally posted by Nephthys


Savage's attack didn't even seem to tickle him. I wouldn't be surprised if he let Savage hit him, thats how little he seemed to care. In fact, moving into a more open area only benefited him.

While Sidious was hit and falling and the brothers were watching him fall, tell me how was he in the superior position in that second.

The superiority was there because he was easily able to use his Force powers to drag them down with him.

Sidious can fly.

But if Savage was able to get a hit in legitimately then that would be Sidious' superiority wavering.

This is a pretty amusing debate btw. You're trying to argue that Sidious was always superior while still arguing that Maul and Savage pressed him at times. Hilarious.

Originally posted by Nephthys


This isn't a ****ing forum fight. There is no divide between sabers and all-out. They were in a lightsaber duel. You are saying they were on par in the lightsaber duel. If that were true, that would be Sidious wavering in his superiority. End of story.

This board is about Sabers only.

What I said was there was "a clear level of parity" in the last Saber fight, Not in the all out. Not at all. That doesn't contradict that quote which wasn't even referring to the final Maul vs Sidious.

The quote for that fight is something like "Maul just couldn't defeat Sidious power."

But personally from what the fight showed I think there was a level of parity in the whole Saber fight, apart from the Sidious vs Opress one on one.

Maul definitely proved himself to be up there as a Saber duelist.

Originally posted by Nephthys
There was no parity. How many times is Tempest going to have to point out that Sidious 'never wavered from his position of superiority' before you guys get that?

What do you mean 'you guys'?

I've never said anything about Maul being on par at any moment against Sidious. Damn it, Neph.

That said, I have no issue with Maul being on the list.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious can fly.

But if Savage was able to get a hit in legitimately then that would be Sidious' superiority wavering.

This is a pretty amusing debate btw. You're trying to argue that Sidious was always superior while still arguing that Maul and Savage pressed him at times. Hilarious.

Not when you distinguish between:
1) Sabers
2) Force
3) All-Out

I think Maul and Savage together pressed Sidious in 1. Mainly due to Maul. Opress was just an add-on. But Sidious still had so much superiority in 2 it was just ridiculous.

All the quotes from Filoni and the website refer to 3.

Edit

1. Luke (Super-genius in the Force and in lightsaber combat, prodigious mastery of the lightsaber, instant learning and mimicry of lightsaber and Force forms, total recollection of everything pertaining to lightsaber combat, unrivaled perceptiveness of an opponent's form, able to use shatterpoint to best it, etc etc)

2. Sidious (A master of every weapon and every style, able to outsmart pretty much anyone, absolutely prestine technical skill, able to kill in a moment and set up all kinds of mistakes to do so)

3. Kas'im (Decades of honed skill, a master of every weapon and every style)

4. Mace Windu (Creator and only master of Vapaad PLUS Shatterpoint)

5. Count Dooku (Technical precision surpassing Kas'im and rivaling Sidious)

6. Grevious (His immense skill allowed him to keep pace with Force users despite having zero ability to use the Force)

7. Tulak Hord (The best in a competitive age of talented lightsaber duelists the likes of which wasn't seen again until height of the Jedi Order)

Disregard my previous post. The most impresive duelists shouldn't be ordered, instead you should read why I list them, as the art of lightsaber combat is a little broader than most people would understand, you must determine for yourself what is more impressive.

Luke (Super-genius in the Force and in lightsaber combat, prodigious mastery of the lightsaber, instant learning and mimicry of lightsaber and Force forms, total recollection of everything pertaining to lightsaber combat, unrivaled perceptiveness of an opponent's form, able to use shatterpoint to best it, etc etc)

Sidious (A master of every weapon and every style, able to outsmart pretty much anyone, absolutely prestine technical skill, able to kill in a moment and set up all kinds of mistakes to do so)

Kas'im (Decades of honed skill, a master of every weapon and every style)

Mace Windu (Creator and only master of Vapaad PLUS Shatterpoint)

Count Dooku (Technical precision surpassing Kas'im and rivaling Sidious)

Starkiller Clone (His mastery of telekinetic lightsaber combat is unholy. The only other person to use telekinetic lightsaber combat was Kreia, and her's was nothing next to the Starkiller Clone)

Grevious (His immense skill allowed him to keep pace with Force users despite having zero ability to use the Force)

Tulak Hord (The best in a competitive age of talented lightsaber duelists the likes of which wasn't seen again until height of the Jedi Order)

Yoda (Able to utilize his power in the Force to orchestrate sequences of the Ataru Form so advanced that he not only completely compensates for his lack of size and reach and advaced age, but also allows him an advantage as a blur nearly impossible to hit even for the likes of Dooku)

Starkiller (Able to utilize powerful Force techniques to enhance his abilities in conjuction with lightsaber combat to such that he is wrecking ball to pretty much anyone or anything that opposses him, wrecking Sith and Jedi that surpass him by leagues, and even overcoming Sidious when unharmed for a brief moment)

Darth Maul (Killer instinct, just born better than his brother Savage Opress, his ultimate skill is in his unconventionality, the way he combines a peerless martial arts mastery with Juyo and the unfamiliar double-bladed lightsaber)

Darth Vader (As a human he was extremely powerful both physically and in the Force, and had mastered form V to ferocious effect, almost in a more devestating conjuction with Ataru before losing all of his mobility and much of his strength in the Force on Mustafar. Despite being weighed down, unbalanced, and lacking a range of normal vision - he miraculously adapted to be even more formidable than ever before, evidenced by his battles with Galen Marek and Luke Skywalker...what he did in every single lightsaber duel with another well trained Force sensitive required tremendous patience, refinery, willpower, percptiveness, and improvisation the likes of which no one on this list matches except perhaps his son, Luke Skywalker himself.)

How do we determine who is better between Sidious and Tyranus? Both seemed to have proved inferior to the likes of Yoda. Both have taken on and beaten multiple Jedi Masters at a single time.

Easy. We compare their feats and the context of those feats. Dooku has never slaughtered saber masters as effortlessly as Sidious has, nor has he shown anything to suggest that he could.

Comparing Dooku to Sidious based solely on his performance against Yoda is a very bad way to compare them. During his fight with Dooku on Geonosis, Yoda was not so willing to kill Dooku. Between this and the way Yoda restrained himself in their force duel, it's very reasonable to conclude that he also restrained himself in the saber fight. To what extent Yoda was holding back is hard to tell, but the fact is, Yoda did not try his hardest with Dooku. If he had, he wouldn't have restrained himself from using the force, so there is no reason to believe that he suddenly decided to try his hardest to take Dooku out in sabers. Taking all this into consideration, crossing blades with Yoda for 30 seconds does not make Dooku an equal saber duelist to Sidious. He might rival Sidious in technical skill, but Sidious is considerably faster and stronger than Dooku.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Kao Cen Darach's blade-work is also amazing. He was able use a double-bladed lightsaber in conjunction with a normal lightsaber with great skill in a duel.


Tulak Hord is a legendary duelist from ancient times. But nothing suggests that he was the greatest ever. Tulak Hord is the greatest lightsaber master to have ever lived, he single-handedly killed over 1,500 jedi 2,000 soldiers with a lightsaber alone, while his servent and fellow sith warrior Khem Val fed on what was left of the fallen jedis Force energy, provided that he single-handedly conquered 100 worlds for his sith empire, being undefeated for as long as he lived and for as long as he reined as a Dark Lord Of The Sith.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Easy. We compare their feats and the context of those feats. Dooku has never slaughtered saber masters as effortlessly as Sidious has, nor has he shown anything to suggest that he could.

Comparing Dooku to Sidious based solely on his performance against Yoda is a very bad way to compare them. During his fight with Dooku on Geonosis, Yoda was not so willing to kill Dooku. Between this and the way Yoda restrained himself in their force duel, it's very reasonable to conclude that he also restrained himself in the saber fight. To what extent Yoda was holding back is hard to tell, but the fact is, Yoda did not try his hardest with Dooku. If he had, he wouldn't have restrained himself from using the force, so there is no reason to believe that he suddenly decided to try his hardest to take Dooku out in sabers. Taking all this into consideration, crossing blades with Yoda for 30 seconds does not make Dooku an equal saber duelist to Sidious. He might rival Sidious in technical skill, but Sidious is considerably faster and stronger than Dooku.

Dude, that's wayyy too much thinking and it has NO basis.

We determine it as such, Dooku was force to retreat from Yoda, and was forced to retreat from Sidious. Sidious is to Yoda as Yoda is to Dooku more or less. Republic troops showed up after the duel on Geonosis, and in Coruscant Clone Troopers arrived after the duel between Sidious and Yoda, that is however a non-factor dispite past debates. Yoda did not know Clones were coming and Dooku did not know Padme was coming. Sidious' victory, or Yoda's victory, are also non-factors when the Force is put into consideration, and lightsaber skills are made less important as they augment even duelists.

Barriss dominates. List forthcoming.

Someone please send the men in white coats to take this guy away.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Tulak Hord is the greatest lightsaber master to have ever lived, he single-handedly killed over 1,500 jedi 2,000 soldiers with a lightsaber alone, while his servent and fellow sith warrior Khem Val fed on what was left of the fallen jedis Force energy, provided that he single-handedly conquered 100 worlds for his sith empire, being undefeated for as long as he lived and for as long as he reined as a Dark Lord Of The Sith.

Can you post something official showing this? The last we discussed him the fact that all records of him are inconsistent lean to his actual ability never being confirmed. Kreia says one thing, the other blurbs say that sabers likely weren't even in the hands of the Sith at the time of his existence.

Just wanting some concrete canon on him.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Can you post something official showing this? The last we discussed him the fact that all records of him are inconsistent lean to his actual ability never being confirmed. Kreia says one thing, the other blurbs say that sabers likely weren't even in the hands of the Sith at the time of his existence.

Just wanting some concrete canon on him. if you need official showing just go to googel in put tulak hord and it will show a post of official showing about tulak hord you should see starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TulakHord

I've barely read the EU stuff, and even I wouldn't have Maul in the top ten, tbh. Not with Sith like Dooku and Sidious in front of him.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I've barely read the EU stuff, and even I wouldn't have Maul in the top ten, tbh. Not with Sith like Dooku and Sidious in front of him.

Yea, in his own era alone, he's like... maybe 7th? Sidious, Yoda, Mace, Dooku, Anakin, Obi-wan.

Throw Barriss on the list or suffer. uhuh

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, in his own era alone, he's like... maybe 7th? Sidious, Yoda, Mace, Dooku, Anakin, Obi-wan.

Well yeah but a lot of those PT top-tiers are pretty close in Saber Prowess.

And I honestly wouldn't put Obi-Wan too far ahead of Maul looking at their fights.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, in his own era alone, he's like... maybe 7th? Sidious, Yoda, Mace, Dooku, Anakin, Obi-wan.

I dunno tbh. Maybe.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Throw Barriss on the list or suffer. uhuh

When/if they confirm it's her, then we'll see.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well yeah but a lot of those PT top-tiers are pretty close in Saber Prowess.

And I honestly wouldn't put Obi-Wan too far ahead of Maul looking at their fights.

I would, tbh. I'm still amazed how much lip service Maul is getting, though I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, given that he's like the Boba Fett of the PT.

Originally posted by -Pr-




When/if they confirm it's her, then we'll see.

Even if it's her, she didn't anything overly impressive. If Ventress knew she was in a fight, and she solidly beat her in Sabers, then that would have been somewhat impressive.



Originally posted by -Pr-
I would, tbh. I'm still amazed how much lip service Maul is getting,

Just stomping Opress puts him up there Imo. So far Opress's list of wins include Adi-Gallia, Plo Koon and Ventress. So utterly stomping him is no small feat.

And I think he held his own against Sidious (in Sabers). That in it self puts him in an elite few.

Plus even as of TPM he was beating the crap out of some of the best Jedi Swordsmen- Qui-Gon and Anoon Bondara.


Originally posted by -Pr-
though I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, given that he's like the Boba Fett of the PT.

Well yeah, it wasn't like it was a proper fight; just Ventress getting caught out to help the plot along.

I don't like it, tbh. The guy is on some planet for what, a decade? And somehow he's able to still keep up with people like Kenobi that have been refining their skills in that time? It makes little sense to me.

Who's Anoon Bondara?

Originally posted by -Pr-


Who's Anoon Bondara?

From the novel Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter. He's described as being the a swordsman whose skills with a Saber are second to none.

Not that he would take Yoda or anything. Just in terms of his sword fighting skills he was supposedly unmatched. People like Qui-Gon would always spar him to improve their own sword fighting abilities.

And Maul was said to be a superior fighter to Anoon in their fight.

That novel and other Maul novels constantly praise Maul's sword fighting and close combat skills. Not surprising seen as he was introduced in TPM just as this bad ass Saber fighting guy.

But I get your point about him being out of action for 10+ years.

I also thought it was kind of unrealistic how he just got his legs replaced again 2 episodes before he fights the Emperor.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Just stomping Opress puts him up there Imo. So far Opress's list of wins include Adi-Gallia, Plo Koon and Ventress. So utterly stomping him is no small feat.


It's quite impressive and puts him good in his era, but of all-time, there's quite a few more uber people more impressive than Maul.




Mostly due to his natural talent and power, but once people start adjusting to that, he starts getting his butt kicked.




Probably the Jedi battlemaster of the time of Phantom Menace, and a noted skilled warrior.


But, we aren't talking Mace Windu or Yoda level here, mind you. Council member level, certainly skilled, but not uber tier, and during peace time.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
From the novel Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter. He's described as being the a swordsman whose skills with a Saber are second to none.

Not that he would take Yoda or anything. Just in terms of his sword fighting skills he was supposedly unmatched. People like Qui-Gon would always spar him to improve their own sword fighting abilities.

And Maul was said to be a superior fighter to Anoon in their fight.

That novel and other Maul novels constantly praise Maul's sword fighting and close combat skills. Not surprising seen as he was introduced in TPM just as this bad ass Saber fighting guy.

But I get your point about him being out of action for 10+ years.

I also thought it was kind of unrealistic how he just got his legs replaced again 2 episodes before he fights the Emperor.

He has nothing below the waist... I'd be pissed too.

Originally posted by Q99
It's quite impressive and puts him good in his era, but of all-time, there's quite a few more uber people more impressive than Maul.




Mostly due to his natural talent and power, but once people start adjusting to that, he starts getting his butt kicked.




Probably the Jedi battlemaster of the time of Phantom Menace, and a noted skilled warrior.


But, we aren't talking Mace Windu or Yoda level here, mind you. Council member level, certainly skilled, but not uber tier, and during peace time.

The only thing i would say is, what about Ventress/Obi-Wan's natural talent and power?

But yeah, I know it's Maul, etc.

Originally posted by Q99

Mostly due to his natural talent and power, but once people start adjusting to that, he starts getting his butt kicked.



Correct me if I'm wrong but I think your talking about Opress. But you quoted Pr who was talking about Maul being out of commission for 10 years.

Savage was specially amped; you can explain away his being so dangerous due to what the Nightsisters did to him. At least, that's how I see it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think your talking about Opress. But you quoted Pr who was talking about Maul being out of commission for 10 years.

Oops, yea.

Maul keeping up isn't too explained, but I'd say it's part starting much higher than Obi-wan, and part focusing his anger and still going over fights in his head over and over, most likely.

My own martial arts instructor mentioned that one of the key figures in Hsing-Yi killed a guy in a duel, was sent to prison for years with the dude's buddies waiting for him to get out, and while in the prison managed to develop the style further (despite not being in a place where he could properly train), keep in shape, and when he got out, killed the buddy.

Then he got sent back to prison for killing the other guy. Kinda dumb, really ^^

So anyway, someone who's already an expert training on their own and managing to keep their level and think up some new moves isn't without real life precedence.

Maul was insane, though. And a big, metal spider. I mean, if they had found him living and surviving on the planet as something resembling himself, that would have been fine, but they went out of their way to show how completely mentally ruined he'd become. All he had left was his hate, and while that makes him powerful, I don't consider it to be the same thing as being skilled.

Though I can't really complain too much after the kicking Obi-Wan gave both of them in that episode. Such a good feat.

I do think a lot of it was just he started out pretty high. Obi-wan in that time frame grew from well below him, to passed him.

Plus now his hatred is so much more intense than it was, he can probably draw on the dark side better. Certainly once his mind was restored he'd be more focused on improvement than ever before.

I honestly don't think the gap between them at the start was that extreme, tbh, but that's just me.

Yeah, his use of the dark side should be much improved. Hate makes you powerful and all that.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I honestly don't think the gap between them at the start was that extreme, tbh, but that's just me.

From when they first fought back in PM? Maul kicked him in the face like, three times, and he was just serving as support for Qui-gon to boot.

He also switched lightsaber styles almost entirely, from an offensive style to a defensive one that he became famous for. Obi-wan remade himself as fighter over the intervening years, and grew from a wet behind the ears just-barely-a-knight to a solid master.


His experience during the CW caused him to grow more, but there's quite a big gap between PM Obi-wan and even start of Clones Wars Obi-wan.

I'm not saying Maul wasn't superior. He obviously was. He was the equivalent of a fully trained Jedi Knight with more experience than Obi-Wan.

I honestly don't think he switched his style due to Maul as much as it was him feeling like he had to be the teacher, and how Jedi tend to pick a style as they grow.

Maul was superior at the time, obviously. I just don't think it was to the extent that Kenobi was a noob against him. He did hold his own for a time in pure saber combat, and it was Maul's experience with the force that got Obi off of him.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I'm not saying Maul wasn't superior. He obviously was. He was the equivalent of a fully trained Jedi Knight with more experience than Obi-Wan.

I honestly don't think he switched his style due to Maul as much as it was him feeling like he had to be the teacher, and how Jedi tend to pick a style as they grow.

Maul was superior at the time, obviously. I just don't think it was to the extent that Kenobi was a noob against him. He did hold his own for a time in pure saber combat, and it was Maul's experience with the force that got Obi off of him.

Have to disagree here. TPM Novel makes it clear that at the time Qui-Gon>Obi-Wan. Although Qui-Gon was confident that Obi-Wan would surpass him one day.

The novel also notes that Maul was a match for the 2 of them combined.

You have to remember Maul and Obi-Wan's final fight in TPM was quite circumstantial. Obi-Wan had been out of the fight for a while so would be completely revitalized. And his anger at seeing Qui-Gon die gave him a huge but temporary boost which according to the Official Site caught Maul by surprise.

Also Maul's rigorous training at the hands of Sidious was beyond that received by any Knight.

But yes Maul overpowered Obi-Wan with the Force in that final fight. And it seems he can still do that to CW Obi-Wan too.

Originally posted by -Pr-


I honestly don't think he switched his style due to Maul as much as it was him feeling like he had to be the teacher, and how Jedi tend to pick a style as they grow.

His original style was the same as Qui-Gon's, mind. And the Maul fight definitely shaped his combat thinking- note how in the final Anakin fight, Anakin was basically in his place and he in Maul's, only he defended where Maul failed.

Originally posted by Q99
note how in the final Anakin fight, Anakin was basically in his place and he in Maul's, only he defended where Maul failed.

Well yeah but Maul was caught by surprise. He had no idea Obi-Wan had a weapon.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Have to disagree here. TPM Novel makes it clear that at the time Qui-Gon>Obi-Wan. Although Qui-Gon was confident that Obi-Wan would surpass him one day.

The novel also notes that Maul was a match for the 2 of them combined.

You have to remember Maul and Obi-Wan's final fight in TPM was quite circumstantial. Obi-Wan had been out of the fight for a while so would be completely revitalized. And his anger at seeing Qui-Gon die gave him a huge but temporary boost which according to the Official Site caught Maul by surprise.

Also Maul's rigorous training at the hands of Sidious was beyond that received by any Knight.

But yes Maul overpowered Obi-Wan with the Force in that final fight. And it seems he can still do that to CW Obi-Wan too.

Where did I say that Obi-Wan was > Qui Gon? I don't believe that at all.

I haven't read the novel, so I can't agree or disagree.

Originally posted by Q99
His original style was the same as Qui-Gon's, mind. And the Maul fight definitely shaped his combat thinking- note how in the final Anakin fight, Anakin was basically in his place and he in Maul's, only he defended where Maul failed.

I honestly don't agree, but that's more personal preference. I can see why you think that, so not going to argue.

One thing I will say, though, is that the two vs one fight is very different than a one v one. When Kenobi and Jinn were together fighting Maul, they were working as a team. Flanking, even feinting at one point. When Obi-Wan was on his own, his outrage, or anger if you want to call it that, fueled his desire to win, and he fought a lot more aggresively than he had when they teamed up.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Where did I say that Obi-Wan was > Qui Gon? I don't believe that at all.

Oh I thought you were saying that Obi-Wan was almost a match for Maul. Obviously we know Qui-Gon was no match for Maul so I just assumed you meant that Obi-Wan may have been greater than Qui-Gon.





Originally posted by -Pr-
I honestly don't agree, but that's more personal preference. I can see why you think that, so not going to argue.

One thing I will say, though, is that the two vs one fight is very different than a one v one. When Kenobi and Jinn were together fighting Maul, they were working as a team. Flanking, even feinting at one point. When Obi-Wan was on his own, his outrage, or anger if you want to call it that, fueled his desire to win, and he fought a lot more aggresively than he had when they teamed up.

Yeah that's true. His rage and aggression clearly enhanced his performance. But he won't be doing that under normal circumstances.

The older Obi-Wan actually started losing when CW Maul tried to get him angry in their first CW fight.

The rage thing doesn't suit his now much more advanced(and more Jedi-Like) style of combat.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh I thought you were saying that Obi-Wan was almost a match for Maul. Obviously we know Qui-Gon was no match for Maul so I just assumed you meant that Obi-Wan may have been greater than Qui-Gon.







Yeah that's true. His rage and aggression clearly enhanced his performance. But he won't be doing that under normal circumstances.

The older Obi-Wan actually started losing when CW Maul tried to get him angry in their first CW fight.

The rage thing doesn't suit his now much more advanced(and more Jedi-Like) style of combat.

I believe that Maul > Qui Gon by a little bit, and then Qui Gon > Obi-Wan by another bit. Though wasn't it said that Qui Gon was at a disadvantage due to ataru being shit in that setting, or something?

Yeah, that's true. He's (imo) one of the best duelists in the order now, and that's in no small part to how refined he is with his use of Soresu.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Though wasn't it said that Qui Gon was at a disadvantage due to ataru being shit in that setting, or something? It's not that Ataru was shit, per se-- it's that Qui-Gon simply fatigued faster than Maul. This allowed Maul to press advantage, which ultimately lead to Qui-Gon's death:

"Qui-Gon was on him in an instant, covering the distance separating them in a rush, hammering into the Sith Lord anew. But he was beginning to weary now from carrying the battle alone. His strokes were not so vigorous as before his face bathed with sweat and taut with fatigue. Slowly, Darth Maul began to edge his way back into the fight, becoming the aggressor once more."


However, before Qui-Gon's stamina gave out, he was fighting Maul quite evenly. In fact, he even gained the advantage for a bit after he meditated:

" could only watch and wait and pray that Qui-Gon could hold on. It appeared that the Jedi Master would. He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. With quick, hard strokes of his lightsaber, he bored into his adversary, deliberately engaging in close-quarters combat, refusing to let the other bring his double-bladed weapon to bear. He drove Darth Maul backward about the rim of the overhang, keeping the Sith Lord constantly on the defensive, pressing in on him steadily. Qui-Gon Jinn might no longer be young, but he was still powerful. Darth Maul's ragged face took on a frenzied look, and the glitter of his strange eyes brightened with uncertainty."

Yeah sorry, that's what I meant. I know Ataru in and of itself isn't bad. After all look at Yoda.

Nice quotes though, thanks.

Qui-Gon was no joke in sabers. In his youth he'd of smoked Maul, imo.

That, I believe.

Ataru was a fairly bad form for an older duelist because it does use more endurance compared to some of the others.

Not that it'd matter in most fights, but in a battle that long it drains the conditioning more.

Yeah. A form like that is more often than not going to favour someone younger with more energy,

bump

Done to death, but...

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Yoda | Palpatine
3. Revan
4. Jacen Solo
5. Darth Malgus
6. Arcann
7. Darth Nyriss
8. Outlander (Hero of Tython)
9. Darth Plagueis
10. Mace Windu
11. Emperor's Wrath II (SOR)
12. Darth Krayt
13. Anakin Skywalker
14. Lord Scourge | Darth Marr
15. Exar Kun | Count Dooku

Outlander > Arcann tho.

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Yoda
3. Palpatine
4. Krayt
5. Darth Plaguies
6. Revan/Caedus
7. Tulak Hord
8. Mace Windu
9. Anakin Skywalker
10. Obi-Wan Kenobi/Count Dooku/Exar Kun
11. Darth Vader/Ulic Qel-Droma/Darth Malgus

Darth Malgus?
Outlander?
Darth Nyriss?

Originally posted by JKBart
Darth Malgus?
Outlander?
Darth Nyriss?

Malgus I forgot about, same as the Outlander.

I don't consider taking down Rookie Scourge and a hindered Meetra Surik that impressive, even in sabers.

Plus she was amped, but so was Scourge, so meh.

1. Luke
2. Yoda
3. Palpatine
4. Anakin
5. Caedus
6. Krayt
7. Windu
8. Exar Kun
9. Vader
10. Dooku

Id put Vader above Exar,and Windu above Krayt personally. But my list would look something like yours

In all of Galactic history, still Dooku.

Originally posted by carthage
Id put Vader above Exar,and Windu above Krayt personally. But my list would look something like yours

Shit, I meant to put Vader above Exar.

Tulak Hord is underrated as a duelist, I think I'm the only one who really appreciates the guy :/

Originally posted by The Ellimist
1. Luke
2. Yoda
3. Palpatine
4. Anakin
5. Caedus
6. Krayt
7. Windu
8. Exar Kun
9. Vader
10. Dooku

Yeah, something like this. Plagueis should be here somewhere though, imo.

Originally posted by Trocity
Yeah, something like this. Plagueis should be here somewhere though, imo.

Shit, I forgot about him. And Tenebrous too tbh.

Not including Plagueis/Tenebrous.

1. Luke
2. Yoda/Sidious
3. Caedus
4. Anakin
5. Exar Kun
6-10. Windu/Dooku/Vader/Krayt

Exar Kun
Ulic Qel-Droma
Count Dooku
Mace Windu
Darth Maul

1. Mortakin
2. Luke
4/5. Yoda/Sidious
6/7/8/9/10. Plagueis/Krayt/Exar Kun/Tenebrous/Zonakin

Honorable mentions: Revan, Vader, Dooku, Mace, Ulic

^ list is fcked. Tenebrous above Mace, Ulic and Dooku makes me sick

Mortakin has what to his name in terms of dueling? Beating TCW Ahsoka?

Is this list just feats or is scaling allowed?

Godlander
Bane
Exar Kun
Ulic Qel'droma
Tulak Hord
Arcann
Krayt
Luke
Zannah
Yoda

Please tell me that's not in order, lol.

What makes you think it isn't?

Well, knowing you, it might be. I'll just stick to my (hopefully correct) belief that not even you would rank Zannah over Yoda. Zannah doesn't belong anywhere on a top duelists list, anyway.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Godlander
Bane
Exar Kun
Ulic Qel'droma
Tulak Hord
Arcann
Krayt
Luke
Zannah
Yoda Nice that you're repping for Hord, but Yoda, Sidious, and most likely, Mace, are all above the Outlander.

Originally posted by Azronger
Is this list just feats or is scaling allowed? Scaling is allowed.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Nice that you're repping for Hord, but Yoda, Sidious, and most likely, Mace, are all above the Outlander.
Do you want to say: Mace>Yoda|Sidious?

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Mortakin has what to his name in terms of dueling? Beating TCW Ahsoka? Do I really need to explain to your banned ass why Anakin's force augmentation would completely overshadow any other duelists' skill?

And thats already with Anakin's incredible saber dueling skills in mind.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Do you want to say: Mace>Yoda|Sidious? I think Mace could take at least A win from both combatants, yes.

In sabers only, of course.

No. He isn't as skilled, and by far not as fast or strong. He could barely react.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
No. He isn't as skilled, and by far not as fast or strong. He could barely react. You're gross. Go watch a little movie called "Revenge Of The Sith", for me buddy.

What speed feats has he to compete with them?

Originally posted by Ursumeles
What speed feats has he to compete with them? Mace already beat Palpatine.

While heavily amped, yeah. So Jacen>Luke now, because he is stated to be the most powerful Jedi ever?

Originally posted by Ursumeles
While heavily amped, yeah. So Jacen>Luke now, because he is stated to be the most powerful Jedi ever? "Heavily".

Uh, no.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Scaling is allowed.

Then my list remains as it is.

Mace won the fight.

I do think Yoda is above Mace, but not that far above him in sabers.

None of that proves he was heavily amped.

Mace didn't think he would need to defend them because he was confident in their abilities.

Mace had sparred with Tiin before, so he knew what he was capable of, he turned out to be wrong.

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Yoda
3. Sidious
4. Caedus
5. Plagueis
6. Mace Windu
7. Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader
8. Darth Krayt
9. Exar Kun
10. Count Dooku

Originally posted by BazookaMaster
1. Luke Skywalker
2. Yoda
3. Sidious
4. Caedus
5. Plagueis
6. Mace Windu
7. Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader
8. Darth Krayt
9. Exar Kun
10. Count Dooku ...Krayt below Vader?

Vader on par with Anakin?...

I put them both at once, it's a mess to me to divide them xD

Originally posted by BazookaMaster
I put them both at once, it's a mess to me to divide them xD Well Anakin's definitely above Vader.

Mace Windu hasn't beat Sidious fair, lol.
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/silver2467/blog/mace-windu-vs-darth-sidious-what-really-happened-r/77247/

Windu and Dooku are the best Duelists of the PT era. Technically anyway, but Yoda and Sidious have superior connections to the force and therefore, have speed and strength that outstrip Mace and the Count's. Anakin isn't all that far behind either