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Both battle in the following

1.Regular Versions
2.Most powerfull versions of each

Who wins in each of the above how and why?

...

Billy rapes her in an innocent all William like way.

And the second one... the most powerful Cap was laying an absolute whooping on Spectre...

1.) Split generally, but Diana can win easily knowing that the lasso can force Cap to say the name of the wizard whom empowers him. Flip side of that is that Cap also knows that's a possibility and will be on guard for it.

2.) Cap in a massacre.

Branlor already brought-up how Billy was doing during um, whatever that INFINITE CRISIS lead-up's name was. I should note this was the same Spectre that beat Shazam, in Shazam's own realm, who had prepped ahead of time. Even if it couldn't be sustained, Diana wouldn't endure it long before defeat.

As for regular, Wonder Woman wasn't able to beat a temporarily handicapped Billy(broken arm and powers reduced; although shortly into the fight his full powers returned and his arm instantly healed) even though she was backed by Guy(with his alien powers), Kyle, J'Onn, Wally and maybe more. And they weren't mind controlled, the realm they were in merely fanned the flames of the bad in them or something like that. Neron specified it wasn't them being controlled, it was them being influenced.

1. Regular fight I think WW would win somehow. Even though he is supposed to have all that wisdom, Billy's childishness comes out now and then... Diana would make use of that and win.

2. Billy takes it.

Regular, they're pretty equal but Diana does have the lasso edge (and the lasso has been used to revert him at least twice) and is more of a tactician, so I'd give it to her.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Branlor already brought-up how Billy was doing during um, whatever that INFINITE CRISIS lead-up's name was. I should note this was the same Spectre that beat Shazam, in Shazam's own realm, who had prepped ahead of time. Even if it couldn't be sustained, Diana wouldn't endure it long before defeat.

Days of Vengeance, and yea, CM empowered by *every magic user on earth* is a bit impressive


On the flip side, her strongest is Trinity Wonder Woman, and in that form she might really be able to outlast him.



Eh, J'onn's taking down Billy solo before when Billy was controlled by the Gray Man.

Sounds like, at best, they were fighting poorly. Kyle, J'onn, Diana, and Wally are each individually dangerous foes for him after all.

What story was that?

While I think J'onn can take down Billy, it's only fair to mention Cap just snapped out of his mind control, and wasn't even sure where he was, let alone he was in a fight with one of the most powerful characters on DC Earth.

But yeah, the Neron influenced fight doesn't prove much of anything, IMO. Just one of those "Hero faces impossible odds" moments that never reached a conclusion, and while a nice feat for Cap, proves nothing about 1 vs 1 battles, given the context.

Originally posted by Q99
Regular, they're pretty equal but Diana does have the lasso edge (and the lasso has been used to revert him at least twice) and is more of a tactician, so I'd give it to her.

During the WAR OF THE GODS storyline, Diana fought evenly simply because she was dodging his attacks, and he was sorta mind-controlled. So I dunno if she'd do as well when he's in his right mind. And he generally did better against Superman than Diana ever did.

Originally posted by Q99
Days of Vengeance, and yea, CM empowered by *every magic user on earth* is a bit impressive

I knew I remembered the name, but I couldn't spell "vengeance" right.

Originally posted by Q99
On the flip side, her strongest is Trinity Wonder Woman, and in that form she might really be able to outlast him.

I assume you mean the 52 issue TRINITY. Haven't read all the issues yet, so I'll have to

Originally posted by Q99
Eh, J'onn's taking down Billy solo before when Billy was controlled by the Gray Man.

Sounds like, at best, they were fighting poorly. Kyle, J'onn, Diana, and Wally are each individually dangerous foes for him after all.

What story was that?

Billy was essentially sucker-punched when J'Onn forced Gray Man out of his mind. He also hurt J'Onn before Gray Many was forced out. That's why J'Onn attacked Cap, he specifically stated he was dazed, so he didn't notice the shift in minds. Gray Man-controlled Cap was about to finish the fight, then Billy's all, "WTF?"

As for the storyline where Cap fights that team, it was in I think UNDERWORLD UNLEASHED. I'd show the fight, but Photobucket seems to be having issues and some of the scans aren't showing-up right now. I'll post it later.

Originally posted by Delta1938
As for the storyline where Cap fights that team, it was in I think UNDERWORLD UNLEASHED. I'd show the fight, but Photobucket seems to be having issues and some of the scans aren't showing-up right now. I'll post it later. Yeah it was that arc.

I think it's just on your end. It happened to me yesterday when I'd click scans I posted and it would show up blank with a KMC link at the top.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Yeah it was that arc.

I think it's just on your end. It happened to me yesterday when I'd click scans I posted and it would show up blank with a KMC link at the top.

It seems most of the images are working, but when I was pulling-up the fight, some of them said "image down, we're working on it" or something along those lines. So I didn't want to show an incomplete fight.

Originally posted by Delta1938
It seems most of the images are working, but when I was pulling-up the fight, some of them said "image down, we're working on it" or something along those lines. So I didn't want to show an incomplete fight. I don't know. Photobucket is a fickle *****.

I just use Tinypic in the event of not wanting to log in.

Originally posted by Delta1938

I assume you mean the 52 issue TRINITY. Haven't read all the issues yet, so I'll have to

Busieks Trinity. Neat concept that had some moments, but overall fell flat, imo.

Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman represent some sort of abstract concept that lets them tap into creation energies from the Cosmic Egg, plus energies in the main DC universe, and basically become abstract level beings.

The trio was supposed to be as powerful combined as Krona, who himself absorbed a ton of Cosmic Egg creation energy.

I really liked the alternate trinity-less world.


Originally posted by Delta1938
During the WAR OF THE GODS storyline, Diana fought evenly simply because she was dodging his attacks, and he was sorta mind-controlled. So I dunno if she'd do as well when he's in his right mind.

Still got the martial arts skill edge.



I think Diana has the better track record, in that she has an actual win. WW managed to cut his throat and have him helpless in Sacrifice, while CM vs Supes is pretty much always a draw.


Also, when CM and Superman fight, they tend to strait-up slugfest, rather than Superman using his range of powers. When WW and Superman fight, he's occasionally done slugfest, but on other times busted out his toolbox.

Has Cap ever shown any feats where he's actually using the Wisdom of Solomon? Only one I can think of off the top of my head is when he refused membership to Batman's alternate JLA in the Obsidian Age storyline.

Isn't it MEANT to give him fighting knowledge etc as well?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Has Cap ever shown any feats where he's actually using the Wisdom of Solomon? Only one I can think of off the top of my head is when he refused membership to Batman's alternate JLA in the Obsidian Age storyline.

Isn't it MEANT to give him fighting knowledge etc as well?


It quite often gives him advice on matters like a villain not being what it seems and such.

It's not primarily a fighting ability.

Cap wins in both. In war of the gods ares was mindcontrolling and draining cap and even then all diana could do was to stalemate him for a few panel. Add in her low tolerance to electric attacks and his lightning amped punches would wreck her.Originally posted by Q99
I really liked the alternate trinity-less world.




Still got the martial arts skill edge.



I think Diana has the better track record, in that she has an actual win. WW managed to cut his throat and have him helpless in Sacrifice, while CM vs Supes is pretty much always a draw.


Also, when CM and Superman fight, they tend to strait-up slugfest, rather than Superman using his range of powers. When WW and Superman fight, he's occasionally done slugfest, but on other times busted out his toolbox.
You have been corrected on this many times. Don't make me pwn you again.

If this happened in a comic, Billy would headbutt her, and while she's out of it, he lifts her bottom up and holds her head down.

Then it fades to black

Originally posted by Q99
I really liked the alternate trinity-less world.




Still got the martial arts skill edge.



I think Diana has the better track record, in that she has an actual win. WW managed to cut his throat and have him helpless in Sacrifice, while CM vs Supes is pretty much always a draw.


Also, when CM and Superman fight, they tend to strait-up slugfest, rather than Superman using his range of powers. When WW and Superman fight, he's occasionally done slugfest, but on other times busted out his toolbox.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Has Cap ever shown any feats where he's actually using the Wisdom of Solomon? Only one I can think of off the top of my head is when he refused membership to Batman's alternate JLA in the Obsidian Age storyline.

Isn't it MEANT to give him fighting knowledge etc as well?

It's given him awareness like a sixth sense. I remember in THE POWER OF SHAZAM! graphic novel how it let him just know things, some of them being useful in the fight, although it didn't give him like Martian Arts knowledge or anything.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
If this happened in a comic, Billy would headbutt her, and while she's out of it, he lifts her bottom up and holds her head down.

Then it fades to black

A hormone-driven young teenager with the stamina of Atlas.....

Originally posted by abhilegend

You have been corrected on this many times. Don't make me pwn you again.

*Pats abhilegend's head* Repeating isn't the same as being right





Yea. Like it might tell him what an enemy's weak point is, or if it's magic tell him the nature of their powers.

Originally posted by Q99
*Pats abhilegend's head* Repeating isn't the same as being right





Yea. Like it might tell him what an enemy's weak point is, or if it's magic tell him the nature of their powers.
You want another round kid? Repeating is what you do for living.

Originally posted by abhilegend
You want another round kid? Repeating is what you do for living.

(gets-out popcorn) GET 'EM ABHI!!!

Originally posted by Delta1938
(gets-out popcorn) GET 'EM ABHI!!!
I've owned Q99 and her ilk more times than I can remember.

What is with all the rape 'jokes'? Do you people even know who Billy Batson is?


Originally posted by abhilegend
You want another round kid? Repeating is what you do for living.

Yea, turns out what actually happened in the comic doesn't change much, funny that.


Personally I don't know how you can go on so long headbutting into the comic.



You've tried, you've just never been right ^^

Helpful tip: Telling people they're wrong when the facts don't line up with you means you're wrong.


Honestly I don't argue with you that much because I know you're one of the posters who doesn't listen, so what's the point? That might be why you think you've won.

Originally posted by Q99
What is with all the rape 'jokes'? Do you people even know who Billy Batson is? A teenager who just dropped WW out cold and helpless.

Originally posted by Q99
What is with all the rape 'jokes'? Do you people even know who Billy Batson is?




Yea, turns out what actually happened in the comic doesn't change much, funny that.


Personally I don't know how you can go on so long headbutting into the comic.



You've tried, you've just never been right ^^

Helpful tip: Telling people they're wrong when the facts don't line up with you means you're wrong.


Honestly I don't argue with you that much because I know you're one of the posters who doesn't listen, so what's the point? That might be why you think you've won.
Keep telling yourself that. When you have the guts to face me again, I'm here to wreck your argument again. Now scoot, I've much better things to do than owning some random WW fangirls.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Has Cap ever shown any feats where he's actually using the Wisdom of Solomon? Only one I can think of off the top of my head is when he refused membership to Batman's alternate JLA in the Obsidian Age storyline.

Isn't it MEANT to give him fighting knowledge etc as well?

Like others said, it's not normally used for combat, but in a general knowledge sense.

In Legends, he thought his lightning killed someone, so he vowed never to turn into Captain Marvel.

When he finally did, the Wisdom of Solomon made him realize he'd been duped by Darkseid.

If nothing else, such an ability should make mind games and psychology useless against him..

Originally posted by abhilegend
Keep telling yourself that. When you have the guts to face me again, I'm here to wreck your argument again. Now scoot, I've much better things to do than owning some random WW fangirls.

Yea, I argue with people like PR and such, because they're people who argue well, but smacking you down without you even noticing a couple times? Bores-ville.


"Wonder Woman ended the fight with Superman's throat cut, and he was bleeding and unable to use his hands to defend himself for at least 30 seconds, 1/3rd the entire prior length of the fight. That's a win."

"Oh, I already smacked you down on that! You can't use that!"

" "


Is soooo convincing ^^

Q, Abhi, either get to actually arguing the subject that's in dispute instead of who owned who, or give into the sexual tension and start making out. My popcorn is getting cold.

Yes, my penis is getting flaccid

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Yes, my penis is getting flaccid

Deep down I always knew you were a guy, but I liked to pretend that your avatar pic was actually of you. Now you've completely ruined it for me. I hate you.

I wish I was Taylor Swift as well.

My fingers would never leave my vagina

DAY 21 OF KMC-WATCH:
So far Abhi and Q99, the two pandas shipped in last month have been sniffing at each other, without much progress. The zoo experts have now decided to show them panda porn, in an effort to kindle their interest in each other.

For some reason, this has taken the form of WW and Captain Marvel cosplay. With pandas.....

Guys, I don't wanna play anymore. Whatever this is, I'm out.

what

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
what



I scared myself

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
DAY 21 OF KMC-WATCH:
So far Abhi and Q99, the two pandas shipped in last month have been sniffing at each other, without much progress. The zoo experts have now decided to show them panda porn, in an effort to kindle their interest in each other.

For some reason, this has taken the form of WW and Captain Marvel cosplay. With pandas.....

Guys, I don't wanna play anymore. Whatever this is, I'm out.

I laughed so hard my jaw hurts.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, I argue with people like PR and such, because they're people who argue well, but smacking you down without you even noticing a couple times? Bores-ville.


"Wonder Woman ended the fight with Superman's throat cut, and he was bleeding and unable to use his hands to defend himself for at least 30 seconds, 1/3rd the entire prior length of the fight. That's a win."

"Oh, I already smacked you down on that! You can't use that!"

" "


Is soooo convincing ^^ Originally posted by abhilegend
Keep telling yourself that. When you have the guts to face me again, I'm here to wreck your argument again. Now scoot, I've much better things to do than owning some random WW fangirls.
Also, it was just a couple of seconds. You always forget things like "wonder woman oneshotted supergirl". Do you want me to bring out all the threads where I owned you? It wouldn't be pretty for you. As far this fight goes black lightning owned diana with just a single attack, Dr. polaris did the same with tazers. Imagine what shazam lightning amped superman level punches would do to her.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
DAY 21 OF KMC-WATCH:
So far Abhi and Q99, the two pandas shipped in last month have been sniffing at each other, without much progress. The zoo experts have now decided to show them panda porn, in an effort to kindle their interest in each other.

For some reason, this has taken the form of WW and Captain Marvel cosplay. With pandas.....

Guys, I don't wanna play anymore. Whatever this is, I'm out.
F U darky.

Originally posted by abhilegend
F U darky.

Coming from anyone else, I'd be offended

But back to the thread.

Good point on the SHAZAM punches Abhi - but what about WW's resistance to magic? Surely that would help her?

Guys, remain on topic please. No inappropriate comments.

Originally posted by Q99
I really liked the alternate trinity-less world.




Still got the martial arts skill edge.



I think Diana has the better track record, in that she has an actual win. WW managed to cut his throat and have him helpless in Sacrifice, while CM vs Supes is pretty much always a draw.


Also, when CM and Superman fight, they tend to strait-up slugfest, rather than Superman using his range of powers. When WW and Superman fight, he's occasionally done slugfest, but on other times busted out his toolbox.

i wouldn't count that as a win any more than him punching her through the atmosphere. IE, not at all, especially with his HF.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Coming from anyone else, I'd be offended

But back to the thread.

Good point on the SHAZAM punches Abhi - but what about WW's resistance to magic? Surely that would help her?
Considering SHAZAM bolts actually disrupt magic (cap has done that many times) and diana being essentialy a magical clay golem, I would call it a disadvantage for her.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Coming from anyone else, I'd be offended

But back to the thread.

Good point on the SHAZAM punches Abhi - but what about WW's resistance to magic? Surely that would help her?

Wonder Woman's resistance to magick didn't seem to help her against Disciple(which Superman walked through) nor, when taking all context into consideration, keep her from looking compared to Superman against KINGDOM Gog.

Then the odds have just shortened imo for Cap.

Originally posted by -Pr-

i wouldn't count that as a win any more than him punching her through the atmosphere. IE, not at all, especially with his HF.

Except after the atmosphere one, he tried to get to her to finish the job and she was already recovered by the time he arrived. He was unable to take advantage.

He, on the other hand, was there for over 25 seconds (we have a video recording that gives time stamps) before his throat closed while WW was just standing there talking or breaking necks.


While it's not inconceivable for him to last that long without taking his hands off the neck, he was very much at a disadvantage in a way that WW's brief KO wasn't.





Time stamp of neck cut: 2 minutes, 1.688 seconds after battle begins.

Time stamp of Lord's neck snap: 2 minutes, 25.991 seconds after battle begins.

Elapsed time: Precisely 24.303 seconds.

Thank you, Brother Eye, for your work in labeled recordings.

Also, when Superman did remove his hand, several seconds after that, his neck was not done healing, it began bleeding again, but soon stopped.

This is a topic where I've pwned you with regularity




I did admit I was wrong about that one.


Still, you can't just ignore the rest like you like to. And that's not exactly a low feat, she still took down a herald even if it was a beat up herald.





And she's also taken Zeus's lightning just fine.

Where does CM get his lightning? Zeus.


Her electricity resistance is simply inconsistent. It's worked twice, and not worked plenty of times.

Disadvantage? Sure. The fight over because of that action? Not in the slightest imo. He still had one free arm and plenty of other options. Besides, even if she had pressed the attack, there was no guarantee of victory.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Disadvantage? Sure. The fight over because of that action? Not in the slightest imo. He still had one free arm and plenty of other options. Besides, even if she had pressed the attack, there was no guarantee of victory.

Not a guarantee, but having your throat cut is a prrrrretty large disadvantage in my book.


If a fight stops when one side has a major advantage, I call it a 'win.'

Originally posted by Q99
Except after the atmosphere one, he tried to get to her to finish the job and she was already recovered by the time he arrived. He was unable to take advantage.

He, on the other hand, was there for over 25 seconds (we have a video recording that gives time stamps) before his throat closed while WW was just standing there talking or breaking necks.


While it's not inconceivable for him to last that long without taking his hands off the neck, he was very much at a disadvantage in a way that WW's brief KO wasn't.





Time stamp of neck cut: 2 minutes, 1.688 seconds after battle begins.

Time stamp of Lord's neck snap: 2 minutes, 25.991 seconds after battle begins.

Elapsed time: Precisely 24.303 seconds.

Thank you, Brother Eye, for your work in labeled recordings.

Also, when Superman did remove his hand, several seconds after that, his neck was not done healing, it began bleeding again, but soon stopped.

This is a topic where I've pwned you with regularity




I did admit I was wrong about that one.


Still, you can't just ignore the rest like you like to. And that's not exactly a low feat, she still took down a herald even if it was a beat up herald.





And she's also taken Zeus's lightning just fine.

Where does CM get his lightning? Zeus.


Her electricity resistance is simply inconsistent. It's worked twice, and not worked plenty of times.
I would like to see that non-existant scan which you didn't produce at your imaginary threads where you owned me. What happened in reality though is that he went in shock when diana freed him from max's control like when bruce called him out and he saw what max forced him to do. As for that slit throat, it didn't even stopped him from talking much less made him helpless

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Durability/healing/wonderwoman219zy.jpg

Anyway this is superman, the guy has had bullets punch right through his torso after getting highly depowered and keep on fighting

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Durability/healing/ActionComics817a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Durability/healing/ActionComics818a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Durability/healing/ActionComics818b.jpg

Healed from a kryptonite sword through heart in one panel
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Durability/healing/supermanbatman18a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Durability/healing/supermanbatman18b.jpg

Originally posted by Q99
Not a guarantee, but having your throat cut is a prrrrretty large disadvantage in my book.


If a fight stops when one side has a major advantage, I call it a 'win.'

I could, like I said, easily say the same about his punch through the atmosphere, though. Superman was still conscious, still physically able, so I don't see how Diana beat him, tbh.

Besides, if we started deciding fights that way, guys with Healing Factors wouldn't have half of the wins they have.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I would like to see that non-existant scan which you didn't produce at your imaginary threads where you owned me. What happened in reality though is that he went in shock when diana freed him from max's control like when bruce called him out and he saw what max forced him to do. As for that slit throat, it didn't even stopped him from talking much less made him helpless

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Durability/healing/wonderwoman219zy.jpg

Anyway this is superman, the guy has had bullets punch right through his torso after getting highly depowered and keep on fighting

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Durability/healing/ActionComics817a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Durability/healing/ActionComics818a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Durability/healing/ActionComics818b.jpg

Healed from a kryptonite sword through heart in one panel
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Durability/healing/supermanbatman18a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Durability/healing/supermanbatman18b.jpg

Do you have to be so bloody snarky with people? Really?

I wouldn't see it the same way, with HF guys - most of the time, they deliberately take it because they know they can heal from it.

Superman, iirc, didn't deliberately try to tank the tiara.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I could, like I said, easily say the same about his punch through the atmosphere, though. Superman was still conscious, still physically able, so I don't see how Diana beat him, tbh.

Besides, if we started deciding fights that way, guys with Healing Factors wouldn't have half of the wins they have.



Do you have to be so bloody snarky with people? Really?
Its all your fault. If you had banned carver, I wouldn't have developed my snarky behaviour.uhuh

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I wouldn't see it the same way, with HF guys - most of the time, they deliberately take it because they know they can heal from it.

Superman, iirc, didn't deliberately try to tank the tiara.

Huh? Superman tries to tank everything. It's his MO.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Its all your fault. If you had banned carver, I wouldn't have developed my snarky behaviour.uhuh

sneer

Originally posted by -Pr-
Huh? Superman tries to tank everything. It's his MO.



sneer So you accept your sins? Atone them by banning carvester immediately.ahuh

Lord knows Ive had my share of Superman vs. Wonder Woman debates with Q, and in the end we just didnt see eye to eye (but Ive always respect him, and valued his opinions on this and all such matters). Ive seen Too Many instances where Superman proved to be Wonder Womans superior, she herself even admitting she cant reliably beat him in a fight, where her best showing was the throat slitting tiara throw, and even that Id not call a WW win (as Supes was beating the crud out of her before that, and that fight could have easily gone either way).

But this isnt Superman but Capt Marvel vs. Wonder Woman, and while physically CM is a near match to Supes, he doesnt have Supes will, drive, experience, intellect, fighting skills or array of powers, and Wonder Woman unlike Superman doesnt have a weakness to magic. Still, I think CM is closer to Supes than WW is, and in the end would give him a slight nod against her, but it would be a very close fight.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Then the odds have just shortened imo for Cap.

What do you mean?

Originally posted by Q99
Except after the atmosphere one, he tried to get to her to finish the job and she was already recovered by the time he arrived. He was unable to take advantage.

He, on the other hand, was there for over 25 seconds (we have a video recording that gives time stamps) before his throat closed while WW was just standing there talking or breaking necks.

Except, Wonder Woman was only revived because of re-entry heat, and Superman didn't even know the tiara was coming. If he had, he could've easily dodged it or deflected it with his breath. And the fact that he had all that shock from being unaware of the circumstances causes huge issues when trying to apply this for Wonder Woman in a typical debate scenario.




Originally posted by abhilegend

Healed from a kryptonite sword through heart in one panel
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Durability/healing/supermanbatman18a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Durability/healing/supermanbatman18b.jpg

You forgot to add that Cosmic King had turned the iron in Superman's blood into Kryptonite before he took that sword.

I think in that same storyline, which granted is an alternate universe one, though IMO still perfectly valid, Superman demolished and then killed an armored/weaponed up Wonder Woman (he was enraged after finding out she killed Batman, who was like a brother to him).

Originally posted by DTM
I think in that same storyline, which granted is an alternate universe one, though IMO still perfectly valid, Superman demolished and then killed an armored/weaponed up Wonder Woman (he was enraged after finding out she killed Batman, who was like a brother to him).
You are correct and that is perfectly valid as the we see that every superhero in world was unchanged except superman and batman and that wonder woman also had lasso of truth by which she forced uncle sam to realize who he is, her bracelets, sword and shield. Though WW fangirl would disagree.

Originally posted by DTM
I think in that same storyline, which granted is an alternate universe one, though IMO still perfectly valid, Superman demolished and then killed an armored/weaponed up Wonder Woman (he was enraged after finding out she killed Batman, who was like a brother to him).

Well I don't see it as an alternate universe or anything like that. Time was messed with, but the LSV had only gone far enough into the past to when the moments that made Superman and Batman happened, and then eventually Clark and Bruce set things right.

And yeah, Superman demolished her in a short period of time. Wonder Woman supporters try to use that things were different, that she wouldn't have had her power-ups, blah blah blah. Problem with that argument, is that would mean Superman likely wouldn't have had any power-ups either. If we do assume power levels were different, if anything it'd be him at Byrne-levels, just not holding back.

And I also thought of them as the equivalent of adoptive brothers in that story arc. Which I say, since I'm adopted myself, doesn't really change anything if you're raised from birth like I was.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Huh? Superman tries to tank everything. It's his MO.



Things like bullets and bombs, sure. But not one writer had him trying to tank Darkseids OE, even before he knew what they were.

I'd think if he was in his right mind, he'd know better than to tank a magical item..

Byrne usually wrote a smarter Superman. Had him deliberately thinking to himself that he's better off dodging weird laser beams fired by strange a giant mechanical construct, than try and take them. Hell, his first thought vs a giant flying stone cube thrown by Blok was whether he was able to dodge it, even though it couldn't possible hurt him..

Originally posted by cdtm
Things like bullets and bombs, sure. But not one writer had him trying to tank Darkseids OE, even before he knew what they were.

I'd think if he was in his right mind, he'd know better than to tank a magical item..

Byrne usually wrote a smarter Superman. Had him deliberately thinking to himself that he's better off dodging weird laser beams fired by strange a giant mechanical construct, than try and take them. Hell, his first thought vs a giant flying stone cube thrown by Blok was whether he was able to dodge it, even though it couldn't possible hurt him..

Byrne also wrote a Superman who was still learning his limits. There's better examples of Byrne writing a "smarter" Superman than him dodging stuff when he's still learning what he can and can't take.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Byrne also wrote a Superman who was still learning his limits. There's better examples of Byrne writing a "smarter" Superman than him dodging stuff when he's still learning what he can and can't take.

I don't know, I consider it pretty smart writing that he didn't let his powers go to his head, and was actually level headed enough to be cautious despite knowing he had god like power...

For all the flack early era Guy Gardner got, he's pretty much what you're most likely to get when you give a noob god like power. Reckless charging into every situation, because you don't think you can be stopped.

Originally posted by cdtm
Things like bullets and bombs, sure. But not one writer had him trying to tank Darkseids OE, even before he knew what they were.

I'd think if he was in his right mind, he'd know better than to tank a magical item..

Byrne usually wrote a smarter Superman. Had him deliberately thinking to himself that he's better off dodging weird laser beams fired by strange a giant mechanical construct, than try and take them. Hell, his first thought vs a giant flying stone cube thrown by Blok was whether he was able to dodge it, even though it couldn't possible hurt him..

So those panels where Superman is tanking Darkseid's eyebeams never happened, did they?

Originally posted by -Pr-
I could, like I said, easily say the same about his punch through the atmosphere, though. Superman was still conscious, still physically able, so I don't see how Diana beat him, tbh.

Besides, if we started deciding fights that way, guys with Healing Factors wouldn't have half of the wins they have.


But if there'd been 30 seconds of more beating in there, when he was already getting significant damage in a fair fight, then his situation would've been quite a bit worse. It would've required a huge lucky break to turn things around, something hard to get against a foe of her skill.

Also, on the Healing Factor thing- if there's a fight between Logan and Creed, and it ends with Logan having his throat and guts torn out and Creed walks away, then that's a Creed win.

If it continues, there's every sign the lead's going to expand before Logan gets a chance to recover.

Heck, didn't Logan pretty much count Creed's yearly beatings as losses for that exact reason?

Even with a healing factor, one side can have a sizable edge.




Originally posted by Delta1938

Except, Wonder Woman was only revived because of re-entry heat,

Yes, she was revived by getting warm. And impact wouldn't have revived her if that hadn't? Or just a few more seconds? If you're out deep, warmth does not wake you up.



Uh, she threw it head-on while he was looking at her. He might not have expected her to do that attack since it looked like she was paying attention to Max, but catching an opponent off-guard with a sudden attack is part of battle.

Also, I'll note he dodged a lasso throw earlier, so it's not like he was ignoring the weapons. There was nothing preventing defense there except surprise.




Likewise.
---

The way I phrase it is, they'll fight in a stalemate that'll degrade into Clark's favor based on his stats, unless one of them makes a mistake.

That time? It was Clark that made a mistake, and Diana won.

Another time? It could be Diana that makes a mistake, and Clark wins.

Or it could be neither, and again Clark wins.

So yea, he has the advantage. It's still impressive as heck to be able to roll the dice and have a chance to win, even if it is unreliable.


(And while Superman did some major damage before that point, so did Diana! Smashed his ears, hurt his ribs enough to get him to lay down for a bit and hold them in pain when he got up, etc.. It's not like it was a one-sided fight)



And finally, I'll make an additional note: Wonder Woman got a weapons upgrade after that fight. Magic lightning from her bracers. That's a tool that'd make things even dicier for Clark, and is of more minor benefit against Billy.

Originally posted by cdtm
I don't know, to me the fact Superman didn't let his powers go to his head and maintained a certain level of caution in each fight is proof enough he's smarter than the average...

For all the flack early era Guy Gardner got, he's pretty much what you're most likely to get when you give a noob god like power.

If you were suddenly given immense power, but didn't know the limits, wouldn't you be cautious?

As for Guy, he's egotistical and a bit delusional. You're talking about the same dude who wanted to prove who's boss to Batman, AFTER taking his Power Ring off.

Originally posted by Q99
But if there'd been 30 seconds of more beating in there, when he was already getting significant damage in a fair fight, then his situation would've been quite a bit worse. It would've required a huge lucky break to turn things around, something hard to get against a foe of her skill.

Also, on the Healing Factor thing- if there's a fight between Logan and Creed, and it ends with Logan having his throat and guts torn out and Creed walks away, then that's a Creed win.

If it continues, there's every sign the lead's going to expand before Logan gets a chance to recover.

Heck, didn't Logan pretty much count Creed's yearly beatings as losses for that exact reason?

Even with a healing factor, one side can have a sizable edge.






Yes, she was revived by getting warm. And impact wouldn't have revived her if that hadn't? Or just a few more seconds? If you're out deep, warmth does not wake you up.



Uh, she threw it head-on while he was looking at her. He might not have expected her to do that attack since it looked like she was paying attention to Max, but catching an opponent off-guard with a sudden attack is part of battle.

Also, I'll note he dodged a lasso throw earlier, so it's not like he was ignoring the weapons. There was nothing preventing defense there except surprise.




Likewise.
---

The way I phrase it is, they'll fight in a stalemate that'll degrade into Clark's favor based on his stats, unless one of them makes a mistake.

That time? It was Clark that made a mistake, and Diana won.

Another time? It could be Diana that makes a mistake, and Clark wins.

Or it could be neither, and again Clark wins.

So yea, he has the advantage. It's still impressive as heck to be able to roll the dice and have a chance to win, even if it is unreliable.


(And while Superman did some major damage before that point, so did Diana! Smashed his ears, hurt his ribs enough to get him to lay down for a bit and hold them in pain when he got up, etc.. It's not like it was a one-sided fight)



And finally, I'll make an additional note: Wonder Woman got a weapons upgrade after that fight. Magic lightning from her bracers. That's a tool that'd make things even dicier for Clark, and is of more minor benefit against Billy.

Superman wasn't incapacitated, though, which is my point. He was holding his throat with one hand. That left freeze breath, heat vision and even his other hand free to engage her if need be.

And it still goes back to my original point where Diana didn't even seem to think she'd beaten him, hence her killing Maxwell Lord.

Originally posted by -Pr-
So those panels where Superman is tanking Darkseid's eyebeams never happened, did they?

Never happened.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Superman wasn't incapacitated, though, which is my point. He was holding his throat with one hand. That left freeze breath, heat vision and even his other hand free to engage her if need be.

And it still goes back to my original point where Diana didn't even seem to think she'd beaten him, hence her killing Maxwell Lord.

Agree 100%, as if Wonder Woman had beaten Superman with that throat slit, she wouldnt have then needed to turn her attention to Lord to kill him so that Supermans hold would be dropped. If that was a winning blow, she would simply have lassoed Lord up and ended this situation, but Superman wasnt out, he was delayed at best, so WW did the only thing she could do to stop Superman, that was kill Maxwell Lord. (and this is pretty much the best showing Ive ever seen WW have against Supes).

Originally posted by -Pr-
Superman wasn't incapacitated, though, which is my point. He was holding his throat with one hand. That left freeze breath, heat vision and even his other hand free to engage her if need be.

Actually, at first it was two hands, it only went to one hand after the neck-snap and he'd had 25 seconds to heal.

And if she knocks that hand away? Suddenly he's losing blood and is going to be in danger of passing out.

And he was in shock from the attack to begin with, leaving him open to an immediate follow-up.

And she'd already defended against HV and freeze breath, this time they were in close range so HtH is more likely, and last time they were in HtH, 45 seconds before, she dealt more blows than he did when he had two arms.




One of the main point, that was a significant part of the story, was sooner or later it'd restart unless Diana killed Superman or killed Lord or got killed, and simply beating him was pointless as long as Lord was alive.


That it was made clear that a normal victory was pointless doesn't mean the fight wasn't won by conventional standards. A boxer coming back for a rematch doesn't mean they didn't lose the first fight.

The very point was it was "Kill Max or Superman, or it's round 1 of however many rounds it takes for WW to die." Could be next round, could be the third one, but the result was inevitable.


Originally posted by DTM
Agree 100%, as if Wonder Woman had beaten Superman with that throat slit, she wouldnt have then needed to turn her attention to Lord to kill him so that Supermans hold would be dropped. If that was a winning blow, she would simply have lassoed Lord up and ended this situation, but Superman wasnt out, he was delayed at best, so WW did the only thing she could do to stop Superman, that was kill Maxwell Lord. (and this is pretty much the best showing Ive ever seen WW have against Supes).

Did both of you miss the part where Superman wasn't under control while Lord was lassoed once WW made him break it? (one of the lasso's powers)


Superman was in no danger of springing up and continuing the fight that minute.

The point was that the fight would resume eventually since the conditioning wouldn't go away while Lord lived, but she was in no danger right then and there.


Also-


That is exactly what she did.




Well, yes, I think "stand there while the opponent's busy trying to keep his throat from bleeding out" is hard to top

(Just kidding around- anyway, yea, she's got some stalemates, but I don't think anyone will disagree that Sacrifice is the best result she's gotten)

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, she was revived by getting warm. And impact wouldn't have revived her if that hadn't? Or just a few more seconds? If you're out deep, warmth does not wake you up.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Wonder%20Woman/WW%20V2%20219/P00008.jpg

"THE HEAT OF REENTRY BRINGS ME BACK..."

It flat-out says that the heat woke her back-up. And "reentry heat" is a lot more than "warmth." And the impact? Might have woken her up, might've hurt her more. People can be knocked back into consciousness, but it's not always the case. If it were, then we'd have a lot less KOs in any striking-based combat sport.

Originally posted by Q99
Uh, she threw it head-on while he was looking at her. He might not have expected her to do that attack since it looked like she was paying attention to Max, but catching an opponent off-guard with a sudden attack is part of battle.

Yeah, and he thought he was fighting Doomsday. Who doesn't throw tiaras that can decapitate demigods. Fail.

Originally posted by Q99
Also, I'll note he dodged a lasso throw earlier, so it's not like he was ignoring the weapons. There was nothing preventing defense there except surprise.

That was BEFORE Diana had wrapped Max in the lasso. When he dodged the lasso, she states "What's Max making him see now?" A bit of a difference when Max's tied-up and focused on her with her hand on his throat


Originally posted by Q99

(And while Superman did some major damage before that point, so did Diana! Smashed his ears, hurt his ribs enough to get him to lay down for a bit and hold them in pain when he got up, etc.. It's not like it was a one-sided fight)

hahahahahah You do NOT want to bring-up her bashing his ears in. She sneaks-up on him, and bashes two very vulnerable areas with her BRACELETS and she still can't knock him out? That shows how inferior she is to him. That'd be like you sneaking-up behind someone and bashing them in the ears with 2 cast iron skillets and failing to KO him.

Originally posted by Q99
And finally, I'll make an additional note: Wonder Woman got a weapons upgrade after that fight. Magic lightning from her bracers. That's a tool that'd make things even dicier for Clark, and is of more minor benefit against Billy.

I haven't seen anything to convince me her lightning would make a significant difference with what Superman's endured before.

Originally posted by Q99
But if there'd been 30 seconds of more beating in there, when he was already getting significant damage in a fair fight, then his situation would've been quite a bit worse. It would've required a huge lucky break to turn things around, something hard to get against a foe of her skill.

Also, on the Healing Factor thing- if there's a fight between Logan and Creed, and it ends with Logan having his throat and guts torn out and Creed walks away, then that's a Creed win.

If it continues, there's every sign the lead's going to expand before Logan gets a chance to recover.

Heck, didn't Logan pretty much count Creed's yearly beatings as losses for that exact reason?

Even with a healing factor, one side can have a sizable edge.






Yes, she was revived by getting warm. And impact wouldn't have revived her if that hadn't? Or just a few more seconds? If you're out deep, warmth does not wake you up.



Uh, she threw it head-on while he was looking at her. He might not have expected her to do that attack since it looked like she was paying attention to Max, but catching an opponent off-guard with a sudden attack is part of battle.

Also, I'll note he dodged a lasso throw earlier, so it's not like he was ignoring the weapons. There was nothing preventing defense there except surprise.




Likewise.
---

The way I phrase it is, they'll fight in a stalemate that'll degrade into Clark's favor based on his stats, unless one of them makes a mistake.

That time? It was Clark that made a mistake, and Diana won.

Another time? It could be Diana that makes a mistake, and Clark wins.

Or it could be neither, and again Clark wins.

So yea, he has the advantage. It's still impressive as heck to be able to roll the dice and have a chance to win, even if it is unreliable.


(And while Superman did some major damage before that point, so did Diana! Smashed his ears, hurt his ribs enough to get him to lay down for a bit and hold them in pain when he got up, etc.. It's not like it was a one-sided fight)



And finally, I'll make an additional note: Wonder Woman got a weapons upgrade after that fight. Magic lightning from her bracers. That's a tool that'd make things even dicier for Clark, and is of more minor benefit against Billy.
Wow, your reaching is certainly something, you might pull something in your body with that. You didn't post that non-existent scan of brother eye recording. Also if anybody is interested Absolute power didn't change anybody else other than superman and batman. Here is diana reminding uncle sam to his true form by lasso
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_019-SupermanBatman014Rembrandt-DCP.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_020-SupermanBatman014Rembrandt-DCP.jpg

Here are the rest of superheroes both had killed

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_013-SupermanBatman17.jpg

Original JLA as they are in the main universe

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_016-SupermanBatman17.jpg

Originally posted by -Pr-

And it still goes back to my original point where Diana didn't even seem to think she'd beaten him, hence her killing Maxwell Lord.

Well, her goal was to fix his mind.. Even if she blatantly knocked him cold, there's still freeing him from Lords control.

And extending the fight, only gives Max time to get away.

Not that I think WW "defeated" Superman. But she did have good reason to focus on Max over her fight.

Well, difference of opinion. She got behind him and made one of the strongest people on the planet scream in pain.

Also, that type of hit... doesn't render people unconscious anyway.



It blasted back a god and rendered an Ivo-made combat android into ash.

Bare minimum, it'd have made that attempt to throw her into the sun out of the question, as he'd be bugzapped the entire way up.


Originally posted by abhilegend
Wow, your reaching is certainly something, you might pull something in your body with that. You didn't post that non-existent scan of brother eye recording.

See, this is why PR and DTM and Delta are better debaters than you and actually worth debating. You jump immediately to gloating at the start of a debate, which is just silly. You don't know, you just assume.


It's the first page of OMAC #3, I'll get a scan shortly.





I think this, better than anything, is an argument against normal powers. And/or that Superman just being stronger than normal.

They beat GL, MM, etc. etc., even when the heroes knew they were coming and'd work together against them?

Normal Supes may be the strongest around, but not by that much, he can't really beat them all.

Originally posted by Q99
Well, difference of opinion. She got behind him and made one of the strongest people on the planet scream in pain.

Also, that type of hit... doesn't render people unconscious anyway.



It blasted back a god and rendered an Ivo-made combat android into ash.

Bare minimum, it'd have made that attempt to throw her into the sun out of the question, as he'd be bugzapped the entire way up.




See, this is why PR and DTM and Delta are better debaters than you and actually worth debating. You jump immediately to gloating at the start of a debate, which is just silly. You don't know, you just assume.


It's the first page of OMAC #3, I'll get a scan shortly.





I think this, better than anything, is an argument against normal powers. And/or that Superman just being stronger than normal.

They beat GL, MM, etc. etc., even when the heroes knew they were coming and'd work together against them?

Normal Supes may be the strongest around, but not by that much, he can't really beat them all.
Here is batman owning wonder woman by the same sneak attack she used on superman under the same writer

http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Wonder%20Woman/WW%20v2%20212%20-%20blind%20%20vs%20JLA/th_page06.jpg

Post the scan.

JLA was killed by LOSV. Have you even read the story?

Originally posted by cdtm
Never happened.







even supposing it was 25 seconds, I don't see why HV wouldn't work; it had worked well against her already.

personally, i'd take quality over quantity. i'd even say he did more damage than she did. or at least, more lasting damage.

Originally posted by DTM
Agree 100%, as if Wonder Woman had beaten Superman with that throat slit, she wouldnt have then needed to turn her attention to Lord to kill him so that Supermans hold would be dropped. If that was a winning blow, she would simply have lassoed Lord up and ended this situation, but Superman wasnt out, he was delayed at best, so WW did the only thing she could do to stop Superman, that was kill Maxwell Lord. (and this is pretty much the best showing Ive ever seen WW have against Supes).

my point exactly.

======

Also, guys, Absolute Power isn't usable either way.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b219/Q99/OMAC3p01.jpg

Timestamps for you.



Nope. Explain the situation, if you will, rather than pre-emptively assuming victory.

The story looks like a pretty heavily divergent timeline to me from the scans you posted.

The bracelet ear bash thing reminds me, that comic had it where he had to "activate" his super hearing.

First and only time he's ever had to do that. By rights, he should have heard WW's heartbeat anyways while using super hearing, or heard her breathing, or even the air moving, even if she used her super speed....

Originally posted by -Pr-




even supposing it was 25 seconds, I don't see why HV wouldn't work; it had worked well against her already.

personally, i'd take quality over quantity. i'd even say he did more damage than she did. or at least, more lasting damage.



my point exactly.

======

Also, guys, Absolute Power isn't usable either way.
Why not? Its not like other time travel stories. Not only superman and batman retained their memories, they were physically the same throughout the arc and after the arc concluded. Take example of bishop, he was the only guy who wasn't altered in AOA and thus he retained his memories and what he did in AOA is canon for him.

Originally posted by cdtm
The bracelet ear bash thing reminds me, that comic had it where he had to "activate" his super hearing.

First and only time he's ever had to do that. By rights, he should have heard WW's heartbeat anyways while using super hearing, or heard her breathing, or even the air moving, even if she used her super speed....

It never said he had to activate it.

He just paused for a moment to listen and she struck. Keep in mind, she is superfast, she can move faster than sound, and she did just zip behind him when she wasn't there a moment before.


Originally posted by abhilegend
Why not? Its not like other time travel stories. Not only superman and batman retained their memories, they were physically the same throughout the arc and after the arc concluded. Take example of bishop, he was the only guy who wasn't altered in AOA and thus he retained his memories and what he did in AOA is canon for him.

Doesn't mean everyone else wasn't different.

And actually, a lot of time travel stories were like that. See all of Booster Gold's for example.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Why not? Its not like other time travel stories. Not only superman and batman retained their memories, they were physically the same throughout the arc and after the arc concluded. Take example of bishop, he was the only guy who wasn't altered in AOA and thus he retained his memories and what he did in AOA is canon for him.

True.

And besides, doesn't time travel work differently in DC than it does in Marvel? Time travel doesn't automatically create alternate timelines, and thus non canon feats in time travel stories, right?

Originally posted by Q99
It never said he had to activate it.

The words were something like "He's using his super hearing". He's ALWAYS using it, and focusing on it.. Otherwise, Jimmy's watch wouldn't be much use.

Originally posted by cdtm
The words were something like "He's using his super hearing". He's ALWAYS using it, and focusing on it.. Otherwise, Jimmy's watch wouldn't be much use.

I wouldn't say he's always focusing on it. I'm pretty sure there's been other occasions he's stopped to listen more closely.


I think even involving Jimmy's watch. He's stop, pause, listen for a moment and say 'that's Jimmy's signal watch!" or that sort of thing. Picking out max details seems like a thing he focuses on.

Originally posted by Q99
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b219/Q99/OMAC3p01.jpg

Timestamps for you.



Nope. Explain the situation, if you will, rather than pre-emptively assuming victory.

The story looks like a pretty heavily divergent timeline to me from the scans you posted.
Okay, you were right. But that hardly changes anything as we saw the slit throat didn't do much as he was still talking and he has fought with worse wounds like chest riddled with bullets and a kryptonite sword through heart. That and he went into shock everytime he was freed from max's control. He wasn't helpless, accept it and move on. He also didn't have any reason to attack as he was freed from max's control just after that attack.

No need for me to do that, you read the story. It wasn't and your view on it changes nothing.

Originally posted by Q99
I wouldn't say he's always focusing on it. I'm pretty sure there's been other occasions he's stopped to listen more closely.


I think even involving Jimmy's watch. He's stop, pause, listen for a moment and say 'that's Jimmy's signal watch!" or that sort of thing. Picking out max details seems like a thing he focuses on.
You don't know much about superman, do you? His hearing is always on otherwise explain how he can hear green arrow shouting "Clark" from south pole from daily planet or how he caught lois when she got shot in qurac before she could fall or hear jimmy's call from Vega star system or Kyle's call from another solar system etc.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Okay, you were right. But that hardly changes anything as we saw the slit throat didn't do much as he was still talking

The talking only occurred after the 'kill me' and neck snap- so after that 24 seconds to heal.



Sure, but against a skilled foe who've already been dishing out some hurt on him before having that handicapped? Not the best position.



He looked like he was in shock before the control broke.

He wasn't completely helpless, but he was severely disadvantaged.

Even if you don't count it as a win, she was definitely winn-ing.



Yea, and if he hadn't been, he'd be fighting with a major neck wound for the next half a minute minimum.



It's not diverged even those WW looks different, all the heroes are dead, they have different experiences, but Superman and Batman both remember it so it counts, even though it's widely considered that the time divergences the like of Booster Gold handle which are made in similar ways and which he remembers are non-canon and don't count?

Gotcha.


Listen, I'm willing to take your word to describe it properly unless something says otherwise, but "I'm not going to tell you the evidence," just sounds like, "I don't want to admit it."

Originally posted by Q99
Well, difference of opinion. She got behind him and made one of the strongest people on the planet scream in pain.

Also, that type of hit... doesn't render people unconscious anyway.

If it were her simply boxing his ears, you'd have a point. But she bashed his ears with her bracelets. That would be like bashing someone in the ears with 2 cast iron skillets. How do you think YOU would stand-up to someone bashing you between the ears with those? Wonder Woman looks horrible in there since she couldn't KO him the way she attacked him.

Originally posted by Q99
It blasted back a god and rendered an Ivo-made combat android into ash.

I'm not impressed. Knocking back a god itself doesn't mean anything. I dunno the level the android you're referring to was at, but I know Amazo models have had inconsistencies. Superman on the other hand wasn't downed when Captain Marvel used several Shazam bolts, nor when Shazam himself blast Superman multiple times after the fight with Captain Marvel. And Superman had fought a Kryptonian battlesuit that had Kryptonite in the alloy and blasted him with red solar radiation before his fight with Captain Marvel, so he would've been weakened to a degree.

Originally posted by Q99
Bare minimum, it'd have made that attempt to throw her into the sun out of the question, as he'd be bugzapped the entire way up.

And doesn't she require connecting the bracelets to do this? She was not able to break his grip via pure strength, she had to use pain compliance to make him let go. Which is another example of why she looked blatantly inferior in the SACRIFICE fight. She basically attempted to use the same choke defense technique in Krav Maga. A technique that allows you to break the grip of a STRONGER attacker. So if she's STILL unable to break the grip, he's MUCH, MUCH stronger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9srBDFW0Z0

Originally posted by Q99
Normal Supes may be the strongest around, but not by that much, he can't really beat them all.

Which JLAer other than Superman has multiple examples showing him stronger than multiple Top-Tiers combined, again?

Also, I should note, you apparently ignored the point I made about she wouldn't have been able to pull-off the tiara throw under normal circumstances, after I corrected your response.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Okay, you were right. But that hardly changes anything as we saw the slit throat didn't do much as he was still talking and he has fought with worse wounds like chest riddled with bullets and a kryptonite sword through heart. That and he went into shock everytime he was freed from max's control. He wasn't helpless, accept it and move on. He also didn't have any reason to attack as he was freed from max's control just after that attack.

No need for me to do that, you read the story. It wasn't and your view on it changes nothing.

I think him being somewhat ok after Emperor Joker literally ripped-out his heart(MORTAL KOMBAT-style) would be a good showing of still around after serious damage.

And I noticed this has turned into Superman VS Wonder Woman, from WW VS Captain Marvel. Is it my fault because I brought-up their fights against Superman as a gauge for each other?

Originally posted by Q99
The talking only occurred after the 'kill me' and neck snap- so after that 24 seconds to heal.



Sure, but against a skilled foe who've already been dishing out some hurt on him before having that handicapped? Not the best position.



He looked like he was in shock before the control broke.

He wasn't completely helpless, but he was severely disadvantaged.

Even if you don't count it as a win, she was definitely winn-ing.



Yea, and if he hadn't been, he'd be fighting with a major neck wound for the next half a minute minimum.



It's not diverged even those WW looks different, all the heroes are dead, they have different experiences, but Superman and Batman both remember it so it counts, even though it's widely considered that the time divergences the like of Booster Gold handle which are made in similar ways and which he remembers are non-canon and don't count?

Gotcha.


Listen, I'm willing to take your word to describe it properly unless something says otherwise, but "I'm not going to tell you the evidence," just sounds like, "I don't want to admit it."
You stepped down from helpless to disadvantaged, that's a start. Could she have used her advantage, maybe. Could she win, not likely seeing he has bounced back from worse. He was healed and wasn't even down from the attack, how's that a winning position? Superman could've just punched in the sun except earth and would've ended that disaster of a story. A neck wound that didn't stop him from talking, meh. He's fought without a heart before.

What booster gold experiences are divergent timelines, here the main timeline got changed and changed back. So diana had lasso of truth, her bracers, her sword, shield but since she didn't wore panties, she was different? Excellent logic. Superman and batman also imprisoned deadman and mention that zatanna was still a powerful magician, so your theory fails here too. Also, I didn't tell you because I don't want to. You can think whatever you want for all I care. Its perfectly canon and perfectly usable.

Right. We DO have Captain Marvel being two-shotted by Superman, who was mind controlled, so.....

If we remember that this thread is WW vs Cap Marvel, not WW vs Superman, well, Cap M isn't quite the same in a fistfight as Superman, not by feats really. He's to Superman what BRB is to Thor.

Keep in mind, at this level, hitting with unbreakable metal and hitting with flesh isn't a significant difference, it's super-tough either way. It's not like the difference between our flesh and metal.



Nope. Crossing the bracers is required for the aegis-shield effect but not the bug zap.

The Ivo-made android she ashed was holding both of her arms behind her back when she fried it.



Superman admittedly does have the best showings, but still, he's got plenty of times when fighting a top tier is a real fight for him.



And he does think Doomsday has lassos? Because he dodged that. Thinking she was Doomsday, interestingly, did not stop him from reacting to WW-specific attacks.


Doomsday does have projectiles too- bone spikes- so there's not even a reason for him to not think there would be projectiles at some point. I could see misjudging the threat a bit, but a bone spike to the throat'd hurt too.




I wouldn't blame yourself.

They are in kind of a 'V' with Superman at the middle, and both of them being the regulars called to fight him when he's controlled or something (something that I think speaks well of both- "Superman's mind control? Quick, call one of those two! No, you can sit down, J'onn.". So, somewhat natural comparison point.

Originally posted by abhilegend
You stepped down from helpless to disadvantaged, that's a start. Could she have used her advantage, maybe. Could she win, not likely seeing he has bounced back from worse. He was healed and wasn't even down from the attack, how's that a winning position? Superman could've just punched in the sun except earth and would've ended that disaster of a story. A neck wound that didn't stop him from talking, meh. He's fought without a heart before.

Pretty likely, considering she was already dealing him significant damage before that point. Without the ability to defend himself nearly as well, the damage is going to pile up faster.

A neck wound that, given half a minute to let his healing work, was healed enough to allow talking.

And she's fought while impaled and blinded before, where the flesh has been peeled off her bones by sorcery, and so on.




There are plenty of alt-worlds where the WW has those things. Almost every one, in fact. And it's not just the outfit, but that things happened different in that world meaning her experiences are different. That Diana might've never temporarily been ascended to a god, or fought half the foes she did to gain experience, or gotten some of the power boosts she received.

And the main timeline changing and changing back is what Booster Gold deals with too. Or the JSA, or everyone else.

That's actually normal.



Yeeeea, you do realize this applies to, like, half of the non-canon timelines out there?

Tons of timelines have most of the people look the same and have similar roles.



Ok, but if you don't explain, then you aren't actually using it in the debate.

Saying "I could win a debate with this, but I don't want to," does in fact mean you aren't winning a debate with it. You could be right, could be wrong, but it's just ceding the field.

Originally posted by Q99
Keep in mind, at this level, hitting with unbreakable metal and hitting with flesh isn't a significant difference, it's super-tough either way. It's not like the difference between our flesh and metal.

Then why is it when Captain Marvel KOed Superman with ZEUS-AMPED sucker-punches, that he rubbed his hand as if he hurt it after? Or when Superman punched Lobo into orbit in MOS #30, he noted his powers must have increased because his knuckles didn't even hurt? Before Kryptonite-X he was on at least a comparable level to Wonder Woman. Going by that logic, it seems like she wouldn't need her bracelets aside from they're too iconic.

Originally posted by Q99
Nope. Crossing the bracers is required for the aegis-shield effect but not the bug zap.

The Ivo-made android she ashed was holding both of her arms behind her back when she fried it.

I've only seen one or two examples of her using it, so I'll have to take your word for it.

Originally posted by Q99
Superman admittedly does have the best showings, but still, he's got plenty of times when fighting a top tier is a real fight for him.

You forget that he holds back more than others. And in fact, he's been outright stated to hold back to the point he suppresses his own powers. And we've got examples of him increasing his powers in a dynamic manner similar to Hulk. And I've seen other examples of him simply showing to be a good deal stronger than various other Top-Tiers(Wonder Woman, J'OInn, Captain Marvel) that aren't even his best showings.

Originally posted by Q99
And he does think Doomsday has lassos? Because he dodged that. Thinking she was Doomsday, interestingly, did not stop him from reacting to WW-specific attacks.


Doomsday does have projectiles too- bone spikes- so there's not even a reason for him to not think there would be projectiles at some point. I could see misjudging the threat a bit, but a bone spike to the throat'd hurt too.

Originally posted by Delta1938
That was BEFORE Diana had wrapped Max in the lasso. When he dodged the lasso, she states "What's Max making him see now?" A bit of a difference when Max's tied-up and focused on her with her hand on his throat


Originally posted by Q99
I wouldn't blame yourself.

They are in kind of a 'V' with Superman at the middle, and both of them being the regulars called to fight him when he's controlled or something (something that I think speaks well of both- "Superman's mind control? Quick, call one of those two! No, you can sit down, J'onn.". So, somewhat natural comparison point.

Oh I know it's natural to use Superman to compare them. He's one of only two character I can think of off the top of my head that both have fought(the other being Captain Nazi) and the only one I'm aware of that both have had multiple fights with. So he's probably the best comparison aside from their own fights, which I only know two of.

Doesn't change the fact though that this has gone completely off-topic and I don't think I've really seen anybody argue for WW VS CM in a while. Even Pr, who in his mod-duties I've seen tell everybody to get back on top in AT LEAST three separate threads THAT I'VE SEEN since I came back yesterday(depending on where you are, and your sense of time), has gotten in on the Superman VS Wonder Woman debate train. Which amuses me.

And I started it.

Originally posted by Q99
Pretty likely, considering she was already dealing him significant damage before that point. Nope, she used weak points and nerve strikes to stun him momentarily. He was snapping her bones like twig an melting her face. Nothing comparable. He was perfectly able to defend himself. Only you would think a slit is seriously hampering him when he can fight with bullets riddling his chest and poisoned with kryptonite. There is no allusion that he couldn't defend himself.

He was talking just after the wound.
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Durability/healing/wonderwoman219zx.jpg

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Durability/healing/wonderwoman219zy.jpg

Irrelevant, she doesn't has a HF which can repair her wounds nigh instantly.




None of them are relevant here, they are hypertime alternate reality. The only relevant would be when Ivo changed history in DC 2000 and every hero had their histories changed but their powers remained same. Irrelevant, her powers are the same. She was still an amazon so her training would still apply. Just speculation. We know that she had her powers and artifacts and she hasn't recieved any power boost post crisis.

Nope, that would be hypertime divergent realities in case of booster gold. Flashpoint would be closest to Absolute power and we saw that power levels were same, only characters changed.



Name those DC stories.

Name them. They are either due to hypertime or reaveled to be seperate universes.



I'm not using it in debate because then cap would stomp her.

I've already won the debate on Absolute Power. You are just ignoring proofs and telling me to prove a negative. Every superhero was same, superman and batman were same physically, diana had her powers and artifacts but according to you she wasn't real wonder woman because she didn't wore panties and *probably* didn't recieve any power up which in fact she hasn't recieved any post crisis.

If he can talk....he could have sung her out of existence

On other note Sacrifice was just terribly written. I laugh when WW fangirls say that it was how a smart superman fight. Here he is heat visioning towards sky while having her in a vulnerable position after snapping her arm
http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/2005%20-%20Sacrifice%20-%20All%20Out%20vs%20WW/th_P00016.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
If he can talk....he could have sung her out of existence
hmm
He has cracked hal's construct and threw WW away by just raising his voice in frustration. Imagine him shouting like black bolt!

Originally posted by abhilegend
hmm
He has cracked hal's construct and threw WW away by just raising his voice in frustration. Imagine him shouting like black bolt!

I know the Hal construct crack, but knocking her away by raising her voice? When'd that happen?

Originally posted by Delta1938
I know the Hal construct crack, but knocking her away by raising her voice? When'd that happen?
In the same scene when he was chasing Arion. I might be wrong about that.

Hey, Delta, what happened to your promise to me from yesterday?



I'd appreciate knowing your opinion on the matches in the following thread and/or having some of your input there.

Agree with the response I was given? Disagree?

Thanks for your time.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f71/t565671.html




Originally posted by Delta1938
I heard Darkseid was responsible for the pantheon splitting into the Greek and Roman counter-parts(to weaken their potential threat), and at the end of WAR OF THE GODS they merged back together. I have WAR OF THE GODS but haven't read it yet. Right now reading UP, UP AND AWAY, will read WOTG next and tell you when I finish.

And I'll check that thread later tonight.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Hey, Delta, what happened to your promise to me from yesterday?



I'd appreciate knowing your opinion on the matches in the following thread and/or having some of your input there.

Agree with the response I was given? Disagree?

Thanks for your time.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f71/t565671.html


I started the video, paused it, then had to step away for a while, then my headphones broke.

Wonder Woman is much faster than Captain Marvel, able to force herself into the speed force under her own power.https://m.imgur.com/a/jS1uF

She has consistent feats of being comparable to Clark physically, and if we use stand alone feats without scaling from Superman, Wonder Woman still comes out on top.

For example, Captain Marvel has the strength of Hercules, but Diana physically wrecks Hercules on a regular basis

Superman>Wonder Woman>Captain Marvel

Diana was using a gateway which amped her speed a hundred times. She didn't get into speed force either.

She still has this feat, which is at least thousands of times faster than light (so way faster than Billy can even conceive)

https://m.imgur.com/a/5dOoi

Originally posted by XLR87T3
She still has this feat, which is at least thousands of times faster than light (so way faster than Billy can even conceive)

https://m.imgur.com/a/5dOoi
Why? The particles weren't FTL, they were teleported from the end of the universe.

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Wonder-Woman-1987/Issue-194?id=7150

She was outflying the particles by flying into near orbit, not even going into space.

Over the course of the Post-Crisis period, and continuing through the New 52, DC slowly uncoupled Captain Marvel from Superman in terms of being physical clones, further trying to differentiate them by playing up the lightning aspect of the Shazam power holders.
I think these days that Shazam and WW are close physically, but WW might have an edge. Combined with her skills, I think she has the overall advantage. But it's close. They are on the same tier.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Why? The particles weren't FTL, they were teleported from the end of the universe.

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Wonder-Woman-1987/Issue-194?id=7150

She was outflying the particles by flying into near orbit, not even going into space. Umm, no? She barely even left the ground the dude was standing on, let alone fly into the sky. WW basically jumped over the guy in a circle

Not only is Wonder Woman faster than Billy, but Superman says out of his own mouth, that he and WW are evenly matched in RAW Might.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111148187/6652662-3548663405-23439.jpg

Batman says that Superman is the only force on Earth that can restrain Wonder Woman. Not Captain Marvel, Superman himself.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111148187/6652664-8177257635-23439.jpg

Green Lantern's ring scans and tells him power levels. He says Wonder Woman operates in Superman's Hood. The ring is saying she's in Superman's POWER level.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111148187/6652665-7923022448-23439.jpg

When Titus takes out Superman and Wonder Woman, he says the MIGHTIEST of the League have fallen.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111148187/6652667-6820656270-23439.jpg

I'm sure there's statements about Captain Marvel being equal to Superman, but Wonder Woman has more. Billy would get wrecked by a serious Diana, he's below her

Originally posted by XLR87T3
Billy would get wrecked by a serious Diana, he's below her
Yup, I've been saying this for years. In terms of physical stats she easily matches or exceeds him, then you throw in her gear and it's game over. Not to mention she's done better vs Superman than Billy has and well...you get the picture.

https://i.imgur.com/DJa4dmb.jpg

VS

https://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/20-600x922.jpg

Originally posted by zopzop
Yup, I've been saying this for years. In terms of physical stats she easily matches or exceeds him, then you throw in her gear and it's game over. Not to mention she's done better vs Superman than Billy has and well...you get the picture. Originally posted by One Big Mob
https://i.imgur.com/Pe910kg.jpg

Now onto speed:

https://i.imgur.com/4Rltynz.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/GvywUIJ.jpg

Seems Billy is faster

Originally posted by zopzop
Yup, I've been saying this for years. In terms of physical stats she easily matches or exceeds him, then you throw in her gear and it's game over. Not to mention she's done better vs Superman than Billy has and well...you get the picture. Hm. I don't think she's done better than Billy physically against Superman, to whom she always comes across as noticeably inferior. Then again, she's also faced the types of Superman that Billy hasn't but at the same time, even the calm Superman has handled her easily . By contrast, Shazam's portrayals have shown him as getting beat but putting up an evenish fight against Eclipso Superman , but getting beat by a serious Superman , and his peer Black Adam getting crushed by a non-magic weakened Superman .

I think she'd win based on pure overall formidability, but physically I don't think she "easily matches or exceeds him". It depends how much they play her "stronger than Hercules" stuff, but given she's the daughter of Zeus, I don't think her powerset is Shazam'd anymore, to say she's "stronger than Hercules, faster than Hermes" etc.

I think he'll settle around Wonder Woman physically, but with wizardly stuff, the same way she is weapony stuff, while Superman is the superior one with the 'punching you out' stuff. Johns is, imo, purposely trying to differentiate him from Superman by making him more 'a master of all magical trades'.

", and his peer Black Adam getting crushed by a non-magic weakened Superman ."

With decades of DIRECT or even indirect comparison/fights, you choose to reference an alternate reality version of Captain Marvel? Imagine arbitrarily deciding that a character who was not the same thing conceptually and almost certainly in practice (7 kids turned into CM and alternate reality characters that are especially gory, not intended for accuracy and treated as temporarily allow for a lot more inconsistency).

Kingdom Come Superman vs. CM would be a much more accurate reference imo.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
", and his peer Black Adam getting crushed by a non-magic weakened Superman ."

With decades of DIRECT or even indirect comparison/fights, you choose to reference an alternate reality version of Captain Marvel? Imagine arbitrarily deciding that a character who was not the same thing conceptually and almost certainly in practice (7 kids turned into CM and alternate reality characters that are especially gory, not intended for accuracy and treated as temporarily allow for a lot more inconsistency).

Kingdom Come Superman vs. CM would be a much more accurate reference imo.
Jurgens had Superman say Captain Thunder reminded him of someone he knew back home. That's clear indication of how he was intended to be shown.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
https://i.imgur.com/DJa4dmb.jpg

VS

https://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/20-600x922.jpg
Context?
Originally posted by One Big Mob

LOL. You're phucking evil.

Originally posted by zopzop
Context?

LOL. You're phucking evil.

There isn't any....

Edit: actually, the bullet ricocheted off Superman and hit her....

Originally posted by zopzop
Yup, I've been saying this for years. In terms of physical stats she easily matches or exceeds him, then you throw in her gear and it's game over. Not to mention she's done better vs Superman than Billy has and well...you get the picture. On top of that, Diana has beaten the s*** out of Hercules, the same guy who gives Captain Marvep his strength.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11133/111337052/6652671-rsz_1ioqitaj.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Now onto speed:

https://i.imgur.com/4Rltynz.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/GvywUIJ.jpg

Seems Billy is faster

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/105634/3826469-catch+him.png

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman directly said Thunder had a counterpart on his world.

https://i.postimg.cc/5ysT3Rt2/image.jpg

What would be the purpose of such a statement?

Also Jurgens Superman on everyday and Jurgens Superman trying to save Lois are two different beasts.
Justice? Seriously?

At least the alt versions he's using are named the same.....

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
At least the alt versions he's using are named the same.....

It's obviously more accurate if they have the same name but are completely different out-of-continuity versions, than if they are the in-continuity Superman and Flashpoint Captain Marvel.

Oh, wait..

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ClosedJointAustraliansilkyterrier-size_restricted.gif

Fight me

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Fight me https://i.imgur.com/m8qzwY7.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
At least the alt versions he's using are named the same.....
Yeah, it's not like Flashpoint is just an alternate history of the main earth and not an alternate world.

https://i.postimg.cc/7CqKXQ28/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/CB1mpB7c/image.jpg

Oh right.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, it's not like Flashpoint is just an alternate history of the main earth and not an alternate world.

https://i.postimg.cc/7CqKXQ28/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/CB1mpB7c/image.jpg

Oh right.

Well am just saying. Using Captain Thunder as justification for Shazam isn't exactly proof.

I mean, I can show a picture of BRB to you. Quickly, which Avenger does he remind you of?

Correct answer is of course, Hulk, due to his massive schlong. But I would also accept Thor.

Does that mean Thor's feats/defeats transfer over to BRB, and vice-versa? No.

Counterpart =/= the same. And even if it did (after all, ALL GL rings are the same; X-23 is a genetic copy of Wolverine) we don't share feats.

'Reminding you of someone back home' =/= OMG Captain Thunder's feats are the same as Shazam!!

Why is this so hard for you to grasp?

Originally posted by XLR87T3
Not only is Wonder Woman faster than Billy, but Superman says out of his own mouth, that he and WW are evenly matched in RAW Might.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111148187/6652662-3548663405-23439.jpg

Batman says that Superman is the only force on Earth that can restrain Wonder Woman. Not Captain Marvel, Superman himself.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111148187/6652664-8177257635-23439.jpg

Green Lantern's ring scans and tells him power levels. He says Wonder Woman operates in Superman's Hood. The ring is saying she's in Superman's POWER level.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111148187/6652665-7923022448-23439.jpg

When Titus takes out Superman and Wonder Woman, he says the MIGHTIEST of the League have fallen.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111148187/6652667-6820656270-23439.jpg

I'm sure there's statements about Captain Marvel being equal to Superman, but Wonder Woman has more. Billy would get wrecked by a serious Diana, he's below her

There are more statements about Diana and Superman being peers. I just stopped by to look at the desperation of the scans posted in here of alternate characters being used as evidence for who would win. Lol... I'm sure Superman (I hope) have combat showing since his rebirth that proves whatever the topic is. Interesting.

He is not exactly Captain Marvel but that is closer than any other comparison to him.

BRB is equal to Thor most of the times than not. All GL rings are not the same but counterparts of Hal Jordan would be equal most of the times. Same with Hulk when both heroes reborn hulk and ultimate hulk looked equal to 616 hulk. Ultimate mjolnir was equal to or more powerful than 616 mjolnir and War Thor was at least equal to 616 Thor.

How many times have you seen an alternate reality counterpart be shown as outright weaker than main earth character?

WW wins.

Originally posted by carver9
There are more statements about Diana and Superman being peers. I just stopped by to look at the desperation of the scans posted in here of alternate characters being used as evidence for who would win. Lol... I'm sure Superman (I hope) have combat showing since his rebirth that proves whatever the topic is. Interesting.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He is not exactly Captain Marvel but that is closer than any other comparison to him.

BRB is equal to Thor most of the times than not. All GL rings are not the same but counterparts of Hal Jordan would be equal most of the times. Same with Hulk when both heroes reborn hulk and ultimate hulk looked equal to 616 hulk. Ultimate mjolnir was equal to or more powerful than 616 mjolnir and War Thor was at least equal to 616 Thor.

How many times have you seen an alternate reality counterpart be shown as outright weaker than main earth character?

So they can interchange feats? All heralds of Galactus, Wolverine/X-23, GLs, Jane/Odinson, etc?

Red Son Superman = OG Superman? Red Son Hal Jordan = God of Will Hal?

....Justice Universe?

Come on.

Why can't you just use comparisons from the comics themselves? I already showed two direct comparisons between WW and Shazam, both post Flashpoint, in canon.

WW is not bulletproof. Shazam is. Durability goes to Shazam.

They had a race. Shazam won. Speed (travel, at least) goes to Shazam.

Am sure we can keep going. Their performances against Aquaman, or Hercules, for example. Why bring up straw grasping like Captain Thunder (lol).

When the JLA met the Avengers, Hawkeye said the JLA reminded him of Squadron Supreme-lite. Does that mean JLA are Squadron Supreme lite? Lol.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
https://i.imgur.com/DJa4dmb.jpg

VS

https://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/20-600x922.jpg

There you go Carver. Non-alt reality characters. Of course, current WW is a different beast, but as you can see, I am not using that in my scans

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So they can interchange feats? All heralds of Galactus, Wolverine/X-23, GLs, Jane/Odinson, etc?

Red Son Superman = OG Superman? Red Son Hal Jordan = God of Will Hal?

....Justice Universe?

Come on.

Why can't you just use comparisons from the comics themselves? I already showed two direct comparisons between WW and Shazam, both post Flashpoint, in canon.

WW is not bulletproof. Shazam is. Durability goes to Shazam.

They had a race. Shazam won. Speed (travel, at least) goes to Shazam.

Am sure we can keep going. Their performances against Aquaman, or Hercules, for example. Why bring up straw grasping like Captain Thunder (lol).

When the JLA met the Avengers, Hawkeye said the JLA reminded him of Squadron Supreme-lite. Does that mean JLA are Squadron Supreme lite? Lol.

Wonder Woman is faster than him. The speed guide DC just presented even say this.

Originally posted by carver9
Wonder Woman is faster than him. The speed guide DC just presented even say this.

In running

Luckily Cap can fly.

Edit: and DC have presented him being faster in flying.

Here you are, Carv:

https://i.postimg.cc/Kv8X1K5x/c8e.jpg

Her edge is due to her skill (lol). Not her actual raw speed itself.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So they can interchange feats? All heralds of Galactus, Wolverine/X-23, GLs, Jane/Odinson, etc?

Red Son Superman = OG Superman? Red Son Hal Jordan = God of Will Hal?

....Justice Universe?

Come on.

Why can't you just use comparisons from the comics themselves? I already showed two direct comparisons between WW and Shazam, both post Flashpoint, in canon.

WW is not bulletproof. Shazam is. Durability goes to Shazam.

They had a race. Shazam won. Speed (travel, at least) goes to Shazam.

Am sure we can keep going. Their performances against Aquaman, or Hercules, for example. Why bring up straw grasping like Captain Thunder (lol).

When the JLA met the Avengers, Hawkeye said the JLA reminded him of Squadron Supreme-lite. Does that mean JLA are Squadron Supreme lite? Lol.
You're taking a simple concept and reaching it to absurd level. Not all counterparts are equal and derivative characters are rarely equal to the original but alternate history counterparts like Captain Marvel/Thunder where only the recepient of the power of Shazam was different? Yes, they are equal.

I showed you the proof that Flashpoint wasn't an alternate reality but an altered main earth where power of Shazam was given to seven children rather than simply to Billy Batson. Mind showing where Captain Thunder was shown as weaker than Captain Marvel?

Originally posted by abhilegend
You're taking a simple concept and reaching it to absurd level. Not all counterparts are equal and derivative characters are rarely equal to the original but alternate history counterparts like Captain Marvel/Thunder where only the recepient of the power of Shazam was different? Yes, they are equal.

I showed you the proof that Flashpoint wasn't an alternate reality but an altered main earth where power of Shazam was given to seven children rather than simply to Billy Batson. Mind showing where Captain Thunder was shown as weaker than Captain Marvel?

Sweet.

Jane Thor = Odinson. After all, it is merely the power of Thor where only the recipient is different.

John Stewart = some no-name Lantern. After all, it is merely the GL ring where only the recipient is different.

X-23 = Wolverine. After all, mutations come from your DNA, and it is only the recipient of said DNA which is different.

Red Son Superman is exactly the same. Only, due to time differences, he landed in Ukraine, not Kansas. Hell, it's even the same baby.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Sweet.

Jane Thor = Odinson. After all, it is merely the power of Thor where only the recipient is different.

John Stewart = some no-name Lantern. After all, it is merely the GL ring where only the recipient is different.

X-23 = Wolverine. After all, mutations come from your DNA, and it is only the recipient of said DNA which is different.

Red Son Superman is exactly the same. Only, due to time differences, he landed in Ukraine, not Kansas. Hell, it's even the same baby.
Jane was equal to Thor, she even stalemated Hercules in strength. Who said she was lower than Thor?

X-23 actually had faster HF than Logan. She doesn't has his experience or adamantium of Logan hence their feats are not interchangable.

Hal's willpower is above John hence not the same.

Red Son Superman is an alternate universe Superman.

You are throwing random red herrings without proving anything. Standard Darksaint response when you don't have anything to say.

Come back when you have anything substantial to say.

King Thor was still mainstream Thor, even if the timeline was rewritten.

Captain Thunder is still in posession of the powers of the mainstream SHAZAM powers, even if the timeline was replaced.

Red Son Superman isn't the mainstream Superman whose timeline got replaced, but a completely different Superman, who happened to land in Russia.

If Red Son Superman was produced by Flash going back in time and replacing mainstream Superman's landing site, then he'd be mainstream Superman.

False equivalencies everywhere, DS.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Jane was equal to Thor, she even stalemated Hercules in strength. Who said she was lower than Thor?

Not me. My point is that we are going down the Hulk is Hulk route. If a thread says a certain character, it doesn't mean we can just throw others in.


So.....the senses are the same?


Note how I said 'no-name Lantern', NOT Hal?


Where the only difference was the time difference, up until then.



My point remains the same. Captain Thunder isn't Captain Marvel (Shazam) as named in OP.

He DEFINITELY isn't the REGULAR version. If you want to argue in round 2, that he's the most powerful version, go ahead.

Originally posted by ozz81
Both battle in the following

1.Regular Versions
2.Most powerfull versions of each

Who wins in each of the above how and why?

Billy is slow as f***
https://i.imgur.com/pWG275tr.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
We can get a mod ruling on this. Sure. I, for one, cannot wait to make King Thor inadmissible for mainstream Thor due to being a changed timeline, and treat him as a "What If?" Universe, with "What If?" Desak, "What If?" Hulk, etc.

The Flashpoint Universe is the DC Universe, but with random events modifications. It's no an alternate timeline in the way "What Ifs" are. Unless we're arguing the Flash went back in time and changed the Wizard's Shazam's gifts, they'd be the same, since it's the same Universe.

I don't know how we got here from my first post, though, since I was mostly displaying writer intention. But...anyway.

Originally posted by XLR87T3
Billy is slow as f***
*snip*

In running.

In flying?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Now onto speed:

https://i.imgur.com/4Rltynz.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/GvywUIJ.jpg

Seems Billy is faster

He was flying in that scan and he was still way slower than Wonder Woman running

Originally posted by XLR87T3
He was flying in that scan and he was still way slower than Wonder Woman running

You didn't read the text, did you,lol.

https://i.postimg.cc/Kv8X1K5x/c8e.jpg

Edit: also, check Superman out. Also flying. The text says he's unmatched when flying.

But he's 4th placed in the art. Wait, is he fastest, or 4th fastest? Lol.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I always thought it was inadmissible in the same way we don't have possible future Gladiator as canon for Glads etc.

I mean, would Flashpoint Superman = Superman? The one who was weakened in the bunker for years?

No. Because the history is changed. But it's not a possible future.

Flashpoint Superman is literally mainstream Superman when the mainstream Superman was put in a bunker for most of his life under red sun by changing details in the mainstream Universe.

The Universe didn't branch-out into an alternate Superman. He IS the Superman.

You've read Flash. Imagine that every time Flash goes back in the past, we treat it as a separate Universe. EVERY. TIME. Because, technically, the timeline is now changed.

Do we?

But history was.

Shazam in a fight with WW would fight differently to Thunder in a fight, for example - we even saw that in the comic.

'Last time I was only trying to talk to you...not this time!'

Histories etc are all different. Which affects their mindsets, etc, which affects their performances.

Edit: stop editing!

Edit edit: Stop!! Lol. This makes the thread flow different everytime you go back and change your post...ohh...meta.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But history was.

Shazam in a fight with WW would fight differently to Thunder in a fight, for example - we even saw that in the comic.

'Last time I was only trying to talk to you...not this time!'

Histories etc are all different. Which affects their mindsets, etc, which affects their performances. Oh, I agree with that completely, if that's your objection.

Of course.

But the powerset itself is not different. Experience? Tactics? Yes.

edit: just for.

edit2: just to think I added something else, and for you to scan it.

There are some fts that was said by the same posters in this thread about Gladiator where his timeline affected the showings not belonging to him. Let's not stray away from this and give credit to showings due to them belonging to Superman.

Maybe Captain Thunder likes to work out every Sunday. Maybe he likes to just sit at home eating pizza and getting all fat and soft. Maybe....you see what I mean?

Still has the same powerset. Different histories, different mindset, different powerlevels.

Which is what I use with Gladiator. Maybe future Glads works out at the local Crossfit gym every day, boosting his strength. Maybe he trains with the finest MAs to hone his skills. Still has the exact same powerset - strength, flight, eyebeams, whatever. But not the same in a forum match.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
PowerSET may not change, but powerLEVELS would - which is my objection, and hence, the inadmissibility.

As Rage said, it's not as if we don't have years and years of the two to compare. I don't read rage's posts.

I think you're conflating powerlevel with formidability.

Powerset IS the powerlevel. Formidability is how you use that powerset.

Shazam/Captain Thunder have the same powerlevel. But, given more showings/experience, you can't say they'd do the same in a fight.

edit: now you're editing, lol! But this is semantics...