Time-Trapper Vs Phoenix Force

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by cdtm
Well, it's not just that he made a universe, but how he went about pruning and shaping it. He wanted nothing more than Earth and Krypton, and wanted them to evolve in a very particular way to produce his Pre Crisis Superboy... No mean feat. Full on "God" level reality warping skills there.

Plus, classic TT is an aspect of entropy. I'd say that makes him a nice match for a sentient Big Bang. wink

But what has the full Phoenix entity actually done? What's it's best feats, and how does it compare with other abstracts?

Thats still the warping of a pocket dimension, skyfathers and hell lords can do that.

Being a representative or agent for Entropy doesnt make him a match for the Phoenix Force who perpetuates the creation cycle being both its beginning and end thereby having the power to control Entropy.

The Phoenix Force as the Big Bang is the sum of all energy in reality. The Abstracts are concepts that gain relevance following the Big Bang event and tap into this creation energy.

Without the Force, there are no Abstracts, Eternity stated that his existence is ensured by the Phoenix Force.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Golgo13
The Phoenix has been hurt before, though. And by beings of less magnitude as TT. What is Phoenix going to do to TT?

Being hurt means nothing. Doesnt mean you can overlook or ignore its role and its feats. erm

Golgo13

Originally posted by Uriel005
Dunno true phoenix is destruction and creation on the other hand recent PF has not impressed. by most recent showing TT in a stomp. Before AvX I'd give the nod to Phoenix... barely though.

But what could the Phoenix do? Time Trapper cannot die, either.

Uriel005

Originally posted by Golgo13
But what could the Phoenix do? Time Trapper cannot die, either. Before AvX and finding out the Phoenix got spanked by a baby dragon I'd say Phoenix has the edge in raw power. Enough to pull a knockout. By no means would I say it would be easy. But.... I just have to go with the big bang especially if it really is life and evolution itself. By that train of logic the phoenix could technically evolve itself to kill him somehow.

Batman-Prime

PF is more like a tool and I would rank her below Abstracts like Eternity or Death. I think she can be as powerful as Galactus. She should be Universal.

TT takes it.

Golgo13

Originally posted by Uriel005
Before AvX and finding out the Phoenix got spanked by a baby dragon I'd say Phoenix has the edge in raw power. Enough to pull a knockout. By no means would I say it would be easy. But.... I just have to go with the big bang especially if it really is life and evolution itself. By that train of logic the phoenix could technically evolve itself to kill him somehow.

I just don't see it,tbh. Trapper was fighting ZH Mon-El who were fighting in the sun, crashing planets, etc... He has shown more power by creating pocket dimensions and surviving basically everything that was thrown his way.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Uriel005
Before AvX and finding out the Phoenix got spanked by a baby dragon I'd say Phoenix has the edge in raw power. Enough to pull a knockout. By no means would I say it would be easy. But.... I just have to go with the big bang especially if it really is life and evolution itself. By that train of logic the phoenix could technically evolve itself to kill him somehow.

You never found that out.

The story said legends told of that happening. That is inconclusive.

Furthermore, Necrom ripped a shard of the Phoenix Forces power for his own use and the Force fled in pain. Does that mean Necrom is more powerful than the Force or could defeat it in battle?

No.

Because Necrom coveted the Phoenix power so it could make him a god.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
PF is more like a tool and I would rank her below Abstracts like Eternity or Death. I think she can be as powerful as Galactus. She should be Universal.

TT takes it.

Eternity himself states that his existence is brought about by the PF

Canon states that his power derives from the Big Bang which is the PF.

The Phoenix Force and its hosts have performed feats beyond any of the Abstracts.

Do not let showings by the P5 make you overlook the capabilities of the Force itself.

Golgo13

What actual feats would put her above TT?

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Golgo13
I just don't see it,tbh. Trapper was fighting ZH Mon-El who were fighting in the sun, crashing planets, etc... He has shown more power by creating pocket dimensions and surviving basically everything that was thrown his way.

Creating pocket dimensions is done by sky fathers and hell lords, it is not as impressive in the cosmic scheme of things as you seem to think.

The PF is the energies of creation, it both triggers reality, sustains it and brings about its end as the Big Crunch thereby showing it controls entropy. smile

Mindset

This is what I've been waiting for.

I wonder if Mr. Master is a Time Trapper fan. mmm

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Golgo13
What actual feats would put her above TT?

The fact that its the power behind the actual universe itself which makes it exponentially greater than a pocket dimension creator. Odin can do that erm

Without the PF there are no Abstracts, no reality.

Jean Grey the Forces host has contained the power of the M'kraan crystal which destroyed and recreated the previous Marvel multiverse. A multiversal feat.

Jean Grey has manipulated the atoms of the universe itself and severed timelines from the multiverse and disposed of them.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Mindset
This is what I've been waiting for.

I wonder if Mr. Master is a Time Trapper fan. mmm

He disappeared after Leonidas stomped him and everyone ganged up on him laughing out loud

Mindset

Lol, I must've missed that.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Mindset
Lol, I must've missed that.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...mp;pagenumber=6

big grin

guy222

great to see u gs

pf wins

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You never found that out.

The story said legends told of that happening. That is inconclusive.
Except Fong Ji did summon the dragon to overpower the Phoenix so that she could claim its power(from New Avengers # 27) :
Originally posted by -K-M-
Oh hell here are the scans

Fongji vs. the Pheonix
1. http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f188/A_Flight5/Avengers-Zone002.jpg
2. http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f188/A_Flight5/Avengers-Zone003.jpg
3. http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f188/A_Flight5/Avengers-Zone004.jpg
4. http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f188/A_Flight5/Avengers-Zone005.jpg
5. http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f188/A_Flight5/Avengers-Zone006.jpg
6. http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f188/A_Flight5/Avengers-Zone007.jpg
7. http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f188/A_Flight5/Avengers-Zone008.jpg
This incident happened centuries ago . That is where the "legend" of Shao Lao beating the Phoenix Force came from .

Golgo13

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The fact that its the power behind the actual universe itself which makes it exponentially greater than a pocket dimension creator. Odin can do that erm

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...mp;pagenumber=6

big grin

That's the homepage .

cdtm

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You never found that out.

The story said legends told of that happening. That is inconclusive.

Furthermore, Necrom ripped a shard of the Phoenix Forces power for his own use and the Force fled in pain. Does that mean Necrom is more powerful than the Force or could defeat it in battle?

No.

Because Necrom coveted the Phoenix power so it could make him a god.

Looking at feats of character A tapping power from character B can be kind wonky in general...

Take Kalibak tapping into Darkseid's power. He's able to punk out Orion by siphoning it, yet Darkseid himself can't beat Orion?

Batman-Prime

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Eternity himself states that his existence is brought about by the PF

Canon states that his power derives from the Big Bang which is the PF.

The Phoenix Force and its hosts have performed feats beyond any of the Abstracts.

Do not let showings by the P5 make you overlook the capabilities of the Force itself.

You know that a Spark can create a Fire that is bigger and more powerful than itself. Some mutants have performed greater feats then PF or even most Abstracts as well, doesn't make them more powerful or more important. Abstracts don't have a comic series and only few appearances^^.

As far as I see it the PF is as much needed as Galactus and important and powerful enough to play a vital role in the Universe but she is a part of the Universe after it's created and there are beings in the same Universe which are more powerful then it. She never appeared to be the ultimate infinite power tbh. The infinite power is a quite misused term in comics btw.

The PF was also beaten by less then Abstracts.

But where would you rank the PF? Beyond Galactus? Death? The IG or even Eternity?

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by cdtm
Looking at feats of character A tapping power from character B can be kind wonky in general...

Take Kalibak tapping into Darkseid's power. He's able to punk out Orion by siphoning it, yet Darkseid himself can't beat Orion?

If Darkseids power can be used by an amateur to take out Orion and yet DS himself can not or at least has not in their battles then its common sense that the potential is their for DS to do it to, however their is another factor in play.

Its important not to be so superficial in your assessments.

The P5s showings as heroes whilst trying to be restrained and acting hero-like does not demean the Force.

A ruthless villain wielding a shard of the power less than any of the P5 members was blowing up solar systems.

That shows you how great an effect the P5s determination to be heroes has on their showings.

Batman-Prime

Originally posted by cdtm
Looking at feats of character A tapping power from character B can be kind wonky in general...

Take Kalibak tapping into Darkseid's power. He's able to punk out Orion by siphoning it, yet Darkseid himself can't beat Orion?

Maybe because we can assume that DS has only Avatars working for him and they are limited to the power they can use, a True Darkseid appeared just once during FC imho.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
You know that a Spark can create a Fire that is bigger and more powerful than itself. Some mutants have performed greater feats then PF or even most Abstracts as well, doesn't make them more powerful or more important. Abstracts don't have a comic series and only few appearances^^.

As far as I see it the PF is as much needed as Galactus and important and powerful enough to play a vital role in the Universe but she is a part of the Universe after it's created and there are beings in the same Universe which are more powerful then it. She never appeared to be the ultimate infinite power tbh. The infinite power is a quite misused term in comics btw.

The PF was also beaten by less then Abstracts.

But where would you rank the PF? Beyond Galactus? Death? The IG or even Eternity?

Thats not the case at all.

The PFs role is to perpetuate the creation cycle by igniting it and eventually destroying it however its being is the actual energies of creation, the Big Bang.

The Firebird isnt the sum of the Phoenix Force, it is an avatar, a manifestation of the energies of creation, within creation.

The PF has been called by the Watcher as 2nd in power only to the supreme being

The Supreme Intelligence called it the greatest destructive power in existence

Eternity himself states that it controls the creation cycle and that he and the other Abstracts wouldnt exist without it

Roma the omniversal majestrix confirmed its role as the energies of creation by saying without the Force there would be no universe, just a void

Reed Richards confirms it is the energies of creation

Tony Stark in AvX confirms it is one and the same as the Big Bang

One thing to keep in mind is that the Force is not an evil entity or a ruthless villain, it is a cosmic force with a role and purpose so comparing its destructive feats to those of the IG or some other power wielded by a villain isnt a sensible comparison.

as i stated compare the feats of Necrom wielding a shard of the PF to one of the P5 members who wield more and you'll see how great an effect a characters role and intentions have on their showings.

The Phoenix Force is beyond the Abstracts as confirmed by Eternity.

cdtm

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If Darkseids power can be used by an amateur to take out Orion and yet DS himself can not or at least has not in their battles then its common sense that the potential is their for DS to do it to, however their is another factor in play.

Or, it's common sense that there's PIS in play.

There's no evidence of an "avatar" Darkseid, and no evidence of "other factors". (And from what you're saying, the Necrom example sounds like similar PIS writing, if Necrom could drive away the Phoenix Force in pain.)

Sometimes bad writing, is simply bad writing.

cdtm

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Maybe because we can assume that DS has only Avatars working for him and they are limited to the power they can use, a True Darkseid appeared just once during FC imho.

Orion's fought, and beaten, the true Darkseid before. Simonson's Darkseid was the "true Darkseid".

cdtm

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

The Phoenix Force is beyond the Abstracts as confirmed by Eternity.

So you believe the PF can defeat any abstract in 616?

To quote Quanchi: Based on?

So far, you're arguing that the PF's role, and comments from other characters, put it at the top of the abstract chain. But being important to the universe doesn't always equate to top tier power levels...

TT is, at the least, above Skyfather level. He grappled with and survived an encounter with Infinite Man, who became the a living embodiment of time in its entity, from the the Big Bang to Entropy, and around again.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by cdtm
Or, it's common sense that there's PIS in play.

There's no evidence of an "avatar" Darkseid, and no evidence of "other factors". (And from what you're saying, the Necrom example sounds like similar PIS writing.)

Sometimes bad writing, is simply bad writing.

For a start i made no mention of Darkseids avatars in my argument so that point needs to be directed elsewhere....

And if an amateur can tap into DS' powers and beat Orion whereas Ds can not then that clearly shows that DS has the potential to beat Orion himself.

Lets get back on point anyway.

The Phoenix Force controls the creation cycle in Marvel from Big Bang to Big Crunch thereby demonstrating control over entropy in her role.

Simple.

cdtm

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
For a start i made no mention of Darkseids avatars in my argument so that point needs to be directed elsewhere....

And if an amateur can tap into DS' powers and beat Orion whereas Ds can not then that clearly shows that DS has the potential to beat Orion himself.

Lets get back on point anyway.

The Phoenix Force controls the creation cycle in Marvel from Big Bang to Big Crunch thereby demonstrating control over entropy in her role.

Simple.

By your logic, Chronos also controls the Big Bang and Big Crunch, as he controls time itself (And what did Hourman do? He froze a big bang in time lock.)

And again, TT survived an encounter with Infinite Man, who's essentially a living cycle of time, from Big Bang to Big Crunch, to Big Bang all over again.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by cdtm
So you believe the PF can defeat any abstract in 616?

To quote Quanchi: Based on?

So far, you're arguing that the PF's role, and comments from other characters, put it at the top of the abstract chain. But I'm not hearing too many big feats..

TT is, at the least, above Skyfather level. He grappled with and survived an encounter with Infinite Man, who became the a living embodiment of time in its entity, from the the Big Bang to Entropy, and around again.

Comments from reputable characters especially cosmics themselves or geniuses from the MU are good enough as proof.

Furthermore if the PF is confirmed as the power that determines Eternity and the Abstracts existence by Eternity himself then its position as beyond the Abstracts is not debatable.

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/2/xmenforever0616.th.jpg

The M'kraan crystal is a multiversal power. By canon it destroyed the previous multiverse and recreated the current one. The Phoenix Forces power contained its energies when its power was unleashed in the current multiverse.

Jean Grey as the White Phoenix manipulated the atoms of the entire 616 universe

She also amputated not just a universe, but an entire timeline from the multiverse and disposed of it.

So the Phoenix Force empowered Jean Grey to do those feats whilst simultaneously sustaining creation and empowering avatars across the multiverse

And did i tell you that the latest Phoenix Force handbook describes it as a multiversal entity? Thats enough smile

Golgo13

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by cdtm
By your logic, Chronos also controls the Big Bang and Big Crunch, as he controls time itself (And what did Hourman do? He froze a big bang in time lock.)

And again, TT survived an encounter with Infinite Man, who's essentially a living cycle of time, from Big Bang to Big Crunch, to Big Bang all over again.

Time has no relevance in a void. Time only gains relevance following the creation event which is known as the beginning of time. Eternity is the embodiment of the chronal axis and the concept of time exists after the Big Bang smile

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/2/xmenforever0616.th.jpg

Before the Big Bang and following the Big Crunch that the Phoenix Force perpetuates, Chronos would be powerless big grin

Furthermore the Phoenix Force is both of creation and beyond

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2339/excalibur064p21.th.jpg

it could not be controlled by a time manipulator. It determines time, it gives that concept relevance.

CortSether

Not sure if GS is a really successful troll or just deluded.

cdtm

Originally posted by CortSether
Not sure if GS is a really successful troll or just deluded.

O_o Harsh.

GS's alright. It's just comics, bro.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by CortSether
Not sure if GS is a really successful troll or just deluded.

A troll in what way?

Because my perspectives arent shared by the majority?

I can back up all of my arguments with scans stating my points, if you think that makes me a troll then that would make you the deluded one smile

Why not try contributing something of substance instead of popping in to drop an off topic insult kinda like a troll big grin

Golgo13

I love the Phoenix, probably one of my fav abstacts in comics, but TT takes this. PF has been less than stellar lately.

Batman-Prime

Nice theory. But well the cosmology works different in both companies, obviously.
Still the PF is just one part of a giant Multiversal mechanism and though important just like in a clockwork mechanism all gear wheels are important and wouldn't work without the others, it doesn't create the others, it isn't beyond those others. It's used to give rebirth but after it the Abstracts are again what they were, necessities of the Universe, like Death.
You might disagree, but that's ok.
And you said it, before the big bang, means that there was a time before the big bang, maybe even before the PF itself.
It can be manipulated by a time manipulator, time exists and it was manipulated and defeated by less. Its enegry and energy can always be manipulated. Actually it was always manipulated to give birth to a new Universe, wasn't it?
I still would rank it somewhere between the Abstracts, with a Host even below this.

Edit: BTW I don't think you are a troll, I think your theory is just fine. Comics gives us enough room for different interpretations, yours is rather exotic but still ok, it just doesn't hold more turth in it then other theories imho. Nevermind^^.

Still siding with TT, he seems more powerful and impressive *shurg*.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Golgo13
I love the Phoenix, probably one of my fav abstacts in comics, but TT takes this. PF has been less than stellar lately.

The P5s showings have been less than stellar, but that doesnt demote the Phoenix Force.

Especially when the comics make it clear the P5 are trying to be heroes and act accordingly which explains why they arent blowing enemies apart or eating solar systems. Would you expect that from a good guy? Well thats what they think they are and what they are trying to be.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Nice theory. But well the cosmology works different in both companies, obviously.
Still the PF is just one part of a giant Multiversal mechanism and though important just like in a clockwork mechanism all gear wheels are important and wouldn't work without the others, it doesn't create the others, it isn't beyond those others. It's used to give rebirth but after it the Abstracts are again what they were, necessities of the Universe, like Death.
You might disagree, but that's ok.
And you said it, before the big bang, means that there was a time before the big bang, maybe even before the PF itself.
It can be manipulated by a time manipulator, time exists and it was manipulated and defeated by less. Its enegry and energy can always be manipulated. Actually it was always manipulated to give birth to a new Universe, wasn't it?
I still would rank it somewhere between the Abstracts, with a Host even below this.

The abstracts themselves state that their existence is determined by the Phoenix Force
It is canon that the Abstracts existence and power stems from the Big Bang
The Phoenix Force is the Big Bang
One of the Phoenix Forces many hosts was able to manipulate the entirety of the universe in the palm of her hand displaying complete control of its atomic structure and that was Jean Grey, not the entire Phoenix Force, as previously mentioned it has been stated to be a multiversal force and by containing the power of the M'kraan crystal it has demonstrated that. Both its role and the feats it has empowered its hosts to do whilst simultaneously sustaining creation and empowering other hosts conclusively ranks its power as greater than the Abstracts which it enables and sustains.

If you are not aware of these feats than thats cool i can show you them smile

The Abstracts play very important roles as well, but as the controller of the universal creation cycle and the energies of creation that determine the existence of all within that cycle, its role and power are clearly and understandably the greatest.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

Edit: BTW I don't think you are a troll, I think your theory is just fine. Comics gives us enough room for different interpretations, yours is rather exotic but still ok, it just doesn't hold more turth in it then other theories imho. Nevermind^^.

Thank you.

Youre very reasonable.

Posters like CortSether believe that anyone who refuses to accept their view on things is a troll and expresses that by being a troll himself lol. I can live with that big grin

Batman-Prime

^You know, the writers contradict each other, there can't be a final truth to concepts, they might change over time. I find your theory interesting.

As for the PF.
Have to disagree as seemingly "lesser" beings within creation are more or did greater things then the PF, like HOM Wanda, the IG or the Beyonder and MM imo. Anyway, I think we won't agree on this one smile

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

And you said it, before the big bang, means that there was a time before the big bang, maybe even before the PF itself.
It can be manipulated by a time manipulator, time exists and it was manipulated and defeated by less. Its enegry and energy can always be manipulated. Actually it was always manipulated to give birth to a new Universe, wasn't it?

With the exception of Oblivion, in Marvel the Abstracts and the Concepts they embody do not exist before the Big Bang.

Eternity himself states that the Phoenix Force ensures his creation through its control of the creation cycle.

If the Phoenix was to deviate from its role none of the Abstracts would exist. The Phoenix Force however is not dependent on the Abstracts.

A host of the PF or the firebird avatar acting within the timestream can be manipulated by time, however the full Phoenix Force encompasses all of creation and it also exists beyond so if we're talking the full entity here time manipulation isnt going to cut it. Jean Grey casually amputates and disposes of timelines with a thought. So how is a being whose power is dependent on timelines going to be a bother?

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by CortSether
Not sure if GS is a really successful troll or just deluded.
The latter is more likely .

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
^You know, the writers contradict each other, there can't be a final truth to concepts, they might change over time. I find your theory interesting.

As for the PF.
Have to disagree as seemingly "lesser" beings within creation are more or did greater things then the PF, like HOM Wanda, the IG or the Beyonder and MM imo. Anyway, I think we won't agree on this one smile

.

But what youre not taking into account is said characters were the villains in their storylines and acting recklessly, whereas characters like the PF act within their creator given roles. Comparing the big destructive displays of a role driven cosmic entity to a villain with no cosmic responsibilities lashing out with their power makes no sense.

However Jean Grey containing the multiversal power of the M'kraan crystal, given its proven power (its canon it destroyed the previous multiverse and created the present one) is a greater power feat than HOM Wanda, or Thanos' universal feats with the IG or anything any cube being has done.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
The latter is more likely .

And your actions would mark you as the former smile

Nothing ive said is illogical. Nothing ive said is not explicitly stated on panel, it is just an unpopular opinion because people just cant seem to make a division between hosts and the PF or even the firebird avatar and the full PF, then use low showings to ignore its stated role and feats in official sources. smile

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And your actions would mark you as the former smile

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Originally posted by CortSether
Not sure if GS is a really successful troll or just deluded. The latter is more likely .

GalacticStorm

Not quite sure what that achieved but knock yourself out. smile

If you believe im deluded then instead of descending into troll like activities why not pick apart my argument and ask for proof.

We can do this one point at a time smile

The anticipation! eek!

CortSether

The funny thing is that GS has been repeatedly owned in numerous threads where he has sprouted unfounded Phoenix hype - like the hilarious "Phoenix Force is the Big Bang" claim. Of course, if he continues to repeat the same lies he'll eventually convince people who are ignorant of the character, so he continues to do so.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not quite sure what that achieved but knock yourself out. smile

If you believe im deluded then instead of descending into troll like activities why not pick apart my argument and ask for proof.

We can do this one point at a time smile

The anticipation! eek!

http://www.lolwut.com/layout/lolwut.jpg

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by CortSether
The funny thing is that GS has been repeatedly owned in numerous threads where he has sprouted unfounded Phoenix hype - like the hilarious "Phoenix Force is the Big Bang" claim. Of course, if he continues to repeat the same lies he'll eventually convince people who are ignorant of the character, so he continues to do so.
GalacticStorm is an open masochist .

This describes him perfectly :
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QLIGr8oFC_A/Taqql7gzs1I/AAAAAAAAAE8/AIIZIbELSdc/s1600/1098667958_eMasochist.jpg

Stoic

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
GalacticStorm is an open masochist .

This describes him perfectly :
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QLIGr8oFC_A/Taqql7gzs1I/AAAAAAAAAE8/AIIZIbELSdc/s1600/1098667958_eMasochist.jpg

I'm curious. Is there a reason that you believe that GS is incorrect in his appraisal concerning this subject?

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by Stoic
I'm curious. Is there a reason that you believe that GS is incorrect in his appraisal concerning this subject?
Yes . And Cort summed it up perfectly :
Originally posted by CortSether
The funny thing is that GS has been repeatedly owned in numerous threads where he has sprouted unfounded Phoenix hype - like the hilarious "Phoenix Force is the Big Bang" claim. Of course, if he continues to repeat the same lies he'll eventually convince people who are ignorant of the character, so he continues to do so.

cdtm

Link to some other posts?

The only reason I'm even following this post, is because it involves Time Trapper. But I can't really debate against a character I only know about through ancient X-Men storylines..

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by CortSether
The funny thing is that GS has been repeatedly owned in numerous threads where he has sprouted unfounded Phoenix hype - like the hilarious "Phoenix Force is the Big Bang" claim. Of course, if he continues to repeat the same lies he'll eventually convince people who are ignorant of the character, so he continues to do so.

Ive never been owned regarding the Phoenix Force. The lies! eek!

Are you seriously going to ignore explicit comments from reputable characters stating its the Big Bang just because you believe its showings don't reflect that in your opinion?

Thats your problem erm

Reed Richards, what is the Phoenix?

The Big Bang

http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/8905/fantasticfour52212.th.jpg

Tony Stark what is the Phoenix Force?

The Big Bang

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/9589/avxzone017.th.jpg

Watcher! Death! what would happen if the Phoenix Force left reality?

There'd be a void

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2769/excalibur02520.th.jpg

Stars are the biggest concentration of Big Bang matter and energy in reality. Kubik! Where do stars derive from?

The Phoenix Force

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/3699/ffann02358.th.jpg

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/2092/ffann02359.th.jpg

Phoenix Force! What are you?

The Big Bang

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3056/excalibur052p10.th.jpg

You have Abstracts, high tiered cosmic beings, the Phoenix itself and Earths top scientific minds all explicitly confirming the Force as the Big Bang. The point is not debatable. You will deal.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Yes . And Cort summed it up perfectly :

So in other words you wish to decline my offer to pick apart my argument point for point because you have no solid argument, no evidence to back you up, just a contrary opinion? : confused

We'll leave it at that big grin

Batman-Prime

I think it is fine and makes sense that the PF is what starts the big bang or that it can be considered to be the Big Bang. Like Imperiex from DC who holds also the energies of the Big Bang inside of him and restarts the Universe.

Whats not ok imho is to insult other posters just because they disagree. I could understand a frustration if an opinion would be far off the truth (Like Batman being Multiversal, he is Omniversal after all) but GS theory sounds plausible enough to make it one possibility among others. To insult someone is like admitting to be wrong, I did or do it too sometimes, but its still no excuse.

abhilegend

Trapper wins. Statements are just that, statements. What are the actual feats of phoenix?

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by abhilegend
Trapper wins. Statements are just that, statements. What are the actual feats of phoenix?

If you read the multiple posts ive made ive stated them multiple times as well as given reasons why TT wouldnt.

TT just doesnt sound like a top tier cosmic. Hes a time manipulating cosmic. Cool. Not on the PFs level.

abhilegend

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If you read the multiple posts ive made ive stated them multiple times as well as given reasons why TT wouldnt.

TT just doesnt sound like a top tier cosmic. Hes a time manipulating cosmic. Cool. Not on the PFs level.
I've read them and its nothing worth responding. Your opinion is yours only, it matters little what you think of trapper compared to PF. Give feats of PF.

cdtm

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If you read the multiple posts ive made ive stated them multiple times as well as given reasons why TT wouldnt.

TT just doesnt sound like a top tier cosmic. Hes a time manipulating cosmic. Cool. Not on the PFs level.

Time manipulating cosmics could be pretty powerful. Rex Tyler, the Hourman android, faced down an entity that created constructs from a Big Bang, that could became replicas of anyone they came into contact with. They even made an imperfect copy of The Worlogog, one of the most powerful relics in DCU... And Rex did this with it:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/Hourman13p16.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/Hourman13p17.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/Hourman13p18.jpg

Not too bad, for a flawed copy, right?

Of course, what Time Trapper is capable of is another argument, but it's a good example of just how powerful mere "time cosmics" could be.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by cdtm
Time manipulating cosmics could be pretty powerful. Rex Tyler, the Hourman android, faced down an entity that created constructs from a Big Bang, that could became replicas of anyone they came into contact with. They even made an imperfect copy of The Worlogog, one of the most powerful relics in DCU... And Rex did this with it:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/Hourman13p16.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/Hourman13p17.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/Hourman13p18.jpg

Not too bad, for a flawed copy, right?

Of course, what Time Trapper is capable of is another argument, but it's a good example of just how powerful mere "time cosmics" could be.

Nice.

And Jean Grey one of many hosts the Phoenix Force empowers across the multiverse casually amputated 150 years of timeline from the multiverse and disposed of it with a thought-

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7486/newxmen154herecomestomo.th.jpg

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7517/allnewofficialhandbooko.th.jpg

An unprecedented feat of timeline manipulation to sever and dispose of timeline as if it were a physical object.

Jean Grey can also manipulate the a universe down to its component atoms:

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/4884/newxmen148pyrate12.th.jpg

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5170/nxm15421.th.jpg

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/9042/xmenphoenixforcehandboo.th.jpg

The Force is not bound to the timestream, it is both of and beyond time and space

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2339/excalibur064p21.th.jpg

and it is a multiversal power that powers avatars across the multiversal and can empower avatars such as Jean with the ability to manipulate whole universes in her palm. An exponential feat when you consider the Force simultaneously powers other avatars and sustains reality as the energies of creation.

abhilegend

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nice.

And Jean Grey one of many hosts the Phoenix Force empowers across the multiverse casually amputated 150 years of timeline from the multiverse and disposed of it with a thought-

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7486/newxmen154herecomestomo.th.jpg

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7517/allnewofficialhandbooko.th.jpg

An unprecedented feat of timeline manipulation to sever and dispose of timeline as if it were a physical object.

Jean Grey can also manipulate the a universe down to its component atoms:

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/4884/newxmen148pyrate12.th.jpg

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5170/nxm15421.th.jpg

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/9042/xmenphoenixforcehandboo.th.jpg

The Force is not bound to the timestream, it is both of and beyond time and space

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2339/excalibur064p21.th.jpg

and it is a multiversal power that powers avatars across the multiversal and can empower avatars such as Jean with the ability to manipulate whole universes in her palm. An exponential feat when you consider the Force simultaneously powers other avatars and sustains reality as the energies of creation.
Trapper was seen doing the same i.e. manipulating entire DCU on the palm of his hand and stopping the wall of anti-matter that erased the entire multiverse from effecting the pocket universe. Trapper is entropy incarnate which devour entire universes. Imperiex with the power of entropy created another big bang. Those are good feats but trapper's feat are better.

cdtm

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7486/newxmen154herecomestomo.th.jpg

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7517/allnewofficialhandbooko.th.jpg

An unprecedented feat of timeline manipulation to sever and dispose of timeline as if it were a physical object.

Interesting.. So she just willed it, and destroyed an entire future alternate timeline?

Impressive. The first scan sounds like God Cable level stuff, but repairing an infant universe is something else. I'll have to check out the White Phoenix story now. big grin

But the PF still inhabits an avatar for this fight, right? So far, no scans of a disembodied PF are being offered, therefore the PF is limited by the power displayed by its best avatar....

Just like the white light entity in Blackest Night may be supremely powerful as a concept, but has no combat feats all its own..

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So in other words you wish to decline my offer to pick apart my argument point for point because you have no solid argument, no evidence to back you up, just a contrary opinion? : confused

We'll leave it at that big grin

http://www.lolwut.com/layout/lolwut.jpg

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by abhilegend
Trapper was seen doing the same i.e. manipulating entire DCU on the palm of his hand and stopping the wall of anti-matter that erased the entire multiverse from effecting the pocket universe. Trapper is entropy incarnate which devour entire universes. Imperiex with the power of entropy created another big bang. Those are good feats but trapper's feat are better.

Well its not really the same because TT is just manipulating time. He has control over one facet of existence. However TT needs reality, he needs a timestream for his powers to have relevance. If you think of a universe as a video file. TTs power is related to the timetrack of that file and enables him to pause reality at any point, fast forward, or rewind to parts he wants to visit or view. Cool. The video file itself is a manifestation of the multiversal Phoenix Force within reality. It has the power to enable one of its many hosts to also act as a software suite to do everything TT can but also play video editor and edit the timetrack itself, delete parts of it, rearrange the order of the timetrack and also apply special effects to change the content of the file from the original. Also with a host empowered to be able to manipulate the energy and matter of reality on a universal scale they could also act as a file converter to change the fundamental properties of the file. Or to send the file itself to the recycle bin.

The fact that a single one of its many multiversal hosts can out perform the TT whilst the Phoenix also empowers other hosts and also sustains creation shows you how out of his league TT would be against the PF itself.

A closer match would be TT vs the White Phoenix Of The Crown and he would still lose.

People too often make the mistake of ignoring what continuity has stated and shown and thinking that the hosts showings equate to all the PF is capable of or that the firebird avatar is the sum of the PF. It is not. It is a manifestation. Hosts performances are dependent on their experience, their intentions and whether said intentions coincide with the PFs agenda.

In Marvel the Phoenix Force determines the creation cycle meaning Entropy has no power over it.

A single host of the Force can manipulate all the matter and energy of the universe in her palm

A single host can dispose of timelines (the source of TTs power) with a thought

A host of the PF can contain a multiversal power source

TT is no match for the PF.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by cdtm
Interesting.. So she just willed it, and destroyed an entire future alternate timeline?

Exactly. An entire timeline was casually severed from the multiverse and disposed of with a thought. That is unprecedented power.

Originally posted by cdtm
Impressive. The first scan sounds like God Cable level stuff, but repairing an infant universe is something else. I'll have to check out the White Phoenix story now. big grin

The 1st few sentences sound like God Cable stuff but then the stuff about making universes does not. stick out tongue

Check out Grant Morrison's New X-men run. Hands down the best X-men run in the past decade.

Jean could amputate and destroy timelines, manipulate the energy and matter of a reality down to its component atoms in her palm and alter events without creating a divergent future which is again unprecedented in Marvel.

Originally posted by cdtm
But the PF still inhabits an avatar for this fight, right? So far, no scans of a disembodied PF are being offered, therefore the PF is limited by the power displayed by its best avatar....

Just like the white light entity in Blackest Night may be supremely powerful as a concept, but has no combat feats all its own..

No. The Phoenix Force can and has acted without hosts. It just likes to act within a host because its mere presence in reality will cause it to automatically reabsorb the ambient life energies reserved for future generations. So it prefers at a universal level to be the formless energies of creation and to just have a host tap into its power instead. However many times it has acted itself as and where necessary.

Batman-Prime

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Well its not really the same because TT is just manipulating time. He has control over one facet of existence. However TT needs reality, he needs a timestream for his powers to have relevance. If you think of a universe as a video file. TTs power is related to the timetrack of that file and enables him to pause reality at any point, fast forward, or rewind to parts he wants to visit or view. Cool. The video file itself is a manifestation of the multiversal Phoenix Force within reality. It has the power to enable one of its many hosts to also act as a software suite to do everything TT can but also play video editor and edit the timetrack itself, delete parts of it, rearrange the order of the timetrack and also apply special effects to change the content of the file from the original. Also with a host empowered to be able to manipulate the energy and matter of reality on a universal scale they could also act as a file converter to change the fundamental properties of the file. Or to send the file itself to the recycle bin.

The fact that a single one of its many multiversal hosts can out perform the TT whilst the Phoenix also empowers other hosts and also sustains creation shows you how out of his league TT would be against the PF itself.

A closer match would be TT vs the White Phoenix Of The Crown and he would still lose.

People too often make the mistake of ignoring what continuity has stated and shown and thinking that the hosts showings equate to all the PF is capable of or that the firebird avatar is the sum of the PF. It is not. It is a manifestation. Hosts performances are dependent on their experience, their intentions and whether said intentions coincide with the PFs agenda.

In Marvel the Phoenix Force determines the creation cycle meaning Entropy has no power over it.

A single host of the Force can manipulate all the matter and energy of the universe in her palm

A single host can dispose of timelines (the source of TTs power) with a thought

A host of the PF can contain a multiversal power source

TT is no match for the PF.

I still disagree and don't want to go further into the Marvel cosmology. In this vs thread we have two differently working cosmologies. The PF didn't created the DCU or is the Big Bang of the DCU. It's role in Marvel is even debatable as we see, it could be as powerful as you think or it is somewhere between the abstracts as most think.
If you say it can't be manipulated by a DC Time Manipulator, who has the feats to let us think that he should be easily powerful enough to do it and your sole argument is "because it is responsible for the timestream and is beyond it" well then it can't in turn do anything to TT as it hasn't created the DC Time and isn't responsible for it.
When you say "its Role is so significant in the Marvel U" then I say that it counterparts Role in the DCU isn't and we end where we started. By feats shown I would give it to TT, by the threat he poses and the way he is portrayed in his company cosmology. The PF seemed to need Help with great tasks and seems to have limits like here
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/xmen1085.jpg and when it meets "real" Abstracts, it's treated with respect but more like a child. Maybe because of it host *shrug.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I still disagree and don't want to go further into the Marvel cosmology. In this vs thread we have two differently working cosmologies. The PF didn't created the DCU or is the Big Bang of the DCU. It's role in Marvel is even debatable as we see, it could be as powerful as you think or it is somewhere between the abstracts as most think.
If you say it can't be manipulated by a DC Time Manipulator, who has the feats to let us think that he should be easily powerful enough to do it and your sole argument is "because it is responsible for the timestream and is beyond it" well then it can't in turn do anything to TT as it hasn't created the DC Time and isn't responsible for it.
When you say "its Role is so significant in the Marvel U" then I say that it counterparts Role in the DCU isn't and we end where we started. By feats shown I would give it to TT, by the threat he poses and the way he is portrayed in his company cosmology. The PF seemed to need Help with great tasks and seems to have limits like here
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/xmen1085.jpg and when it meets "real" Abstracts, it's treated with respect but more like a child. Maybe because of it host *shrug.

When it comes to cross company battles on this forum we sort of lump them together in one omniverse so we wouldnt say one characters powers wouldnt effect the other merely because theyre from different companies. If you got the impression that i was saying TT couldnt effect the PF because theyre from different companies then thats not what i was saying.

TTs powers are dependent on the timestream, he manipulates the timestream to do what he does.

As shown on panel Jean Grey can with a thought can amputate, edit and disposes of timelines. The PF is not bound to a timeline. Time is one facet of existence and it is the only facet that TT has control over. What if the PF again just casually disposed of the universe, just what is the TT going to do?

The PF has many a time on panel been addressed by the Abstracts and other cosmics like the Watcher and its place in the Marvel cosmology has been confirmed. Eternity has stated his and all of the Abstracts existence is dependent on the PF. Death and the Watcher have stated that without the Phoenix Force there would be a void, non existence and many of them have confirmed the Big Bang is the Phoenix Force. Whilst runs like New X-men and statements that it is a multiversal power (a point confirmed by its latest handbook entry) all confirm its comparative power.

As you acknowledge its uses of human hosts with their inherent fallibility can determine how they are addressed on panel or what showings they have however as i have shown in this thread there are a multitude of circumstances where other cosmics address the PF itself and relay its position in the cosmology.

Batman-Prime

^So by Feats the PF manipulated one Universe and Timestream and was defeated by less. TT on the other hand did more. So it is not bound to one Timeline, well TT can manipulate more then one, why not manipulate all Timelines if it what it takes to beat her wink

.

Edit: BTW the PF moves within a certain Timne and Timesstream, if it would by any means be that powerful as in that one instance you are referring to. There would never be a fight. It's a part of the now a part of the Universe and not the Universe itself, this would be eternity. Eternity isn't part of the Pf else it wouldn't move inside him. It might help restart the cycle but after that it's shown as a part of it, bound to it's rules *shurg.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
^So by Feats the PF manipulated one Universe and Timestream and was defeated by less. TT on the other hand did more. So it is not bound to one Timeline, well TT can manipulate more then one, why not manipulate all Timelines if it what it takes to beat her wink

.

Youre still not getting it.

Jean Grey didnt just manipulate a timeline, she amputated it like it was a physical object and then disposed of it casually with a thought.

TTs powers stem from the manipulation of timelines. Timelines as demonstrated are nothing to even a host of the PF. What can TT do to a being not bound to time and who can casually dispatch of that which TT needs to make his powers relevant? confused

In the same way the Fury killed James Jaspers the reality warper. He took out of the equation, that which made Jaspers powers relevant...reality. Rendering him powerless.

Furthermore what youre not getting is what time is just one facet of reality. It is a concept which only has relevance if reality exists which is why the Big Bang, the formation of the universe is the beginning of time. As ive demonstrated PF has unprecedented control over not only time, but the substance of reality as well.

Jean Grey as the White Phoenix could take out TT.
She has contained multiversal powers (a feat in itself more impressive than anything TTs done)
Shes amputated and dispatched of timelines with a thought
Furthermore she manipulated all the matter of 616 down to its component atoms in her palm with no discernible effort. 616, the core universe from which all others in Marvel derive. An unprecedented feat.

Jean Grey >>>>>TT

PF>>>>>>>than both

Batman-Prime

Sry what you are not getting is that it works different in DC and that even if the Marvel timelines would start its timeline from the Big Bang and there would be no "before" doesn't mean that it's role is the same in DC. They fight on neutral ground. with their feats as weapons and imho TT has the better fighting record. Time Manipulators are quite powerful in DC the Big Bang is just one little part of the Time stream. You can see it from both positions or just from one.
TT >> PF >>>>> Jean Grey
Well at least we agree that the PF >>> Jean Grey, so nevermind ^^.

PS: And what she did is nothing compared what TT can do or did with the Time, it's his turf after all^^.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

Edit: BTW the PF moves within a certain Timne and Timesstream, if it would by any means be that powerful as in that one instance you are referring to. There would never be a fight. It's a part of the now a part of the Universe and not the Universe itself, this would be eternity. Eternity isn't part of the Pf else it wouldn't move inside him. It might help restart the cycle but after that it's shown as a part of it, bound to it's rules *shurg.

Again displaying your lack of knowledge about the character youre debating about.

This is why youre arguing against me, because of a misunderstanding and lack of knowledge on the issue at hand.

Eternity is the concept of time, he embodies the chronal axis whilst Infinity embodies the spatial axis.

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/7517/allnewofficialhandbooko.th.jpg

This has been continuity since the early 90s

The Phoenix Force is among other things the Big Bang, the actual energies of creation and following the Big Bang event concepts such as those represented by the Abstracts gain relevance and they come into being and they get their might by tapping into these ambient energies.

In this very thread ive already posted various scans of the PF being called the Big Bang so i dont need to repeat the point.

The PF is the energies of creation, Eternity is the concept of time that gains relevance following the Big Bang and he embodies all along the chronal axis in concept, not physically, that would be the PF.

The PF is a multiversal entity, so what you need to understand is that it is not bound to any single timeline, it also exists beyond time and space within the White Hot Room where it empowers and polices the multiversal "Phoenix Corps"

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2339/excalibur064p21.th.jpg

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5170/nxm15421.th.jpg

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3201/nxm15422.th.jpg

So a universal time warper is nothing to the multiversal PF.

Timelines which TT needs to use his power can be rendered a non factor

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Sry what you are not getting is that it works different in DC and that even if the Marvel timelines would start its timeline from the Big Bang and there would be no "before" doesn't mean that it's role is the same in DC. They fight on neutral ground. with their feats as weapons and imho TT has the better fighting record. Time Manipulators are quite powerful in DC the Big Bang is just one little part of the Time stream. You can see it from both positions or just from one.
TT >> PF >>>>> Jean Grey
Well at least we agree that the PF >>> Jean Grey, so nevermind ^^.

PS: And what she did is nothing compared what TT can do or did with the Time, it's his turf after all^^.

The Big Bang is the start of the timeline. If there was no Big Bang there would be no timestream to manipulate as it is the starting point.

Regardless, my point still stands the PF is a multiversal entity not bound to any timeline, it can casually dispatch of timelines and realities which would remove time from the equation. Then what is TT going to do? confused

Batman-Prime

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Big Bang is the start of the timeline. If there was no Big Bang there would be no timestream to manipulate as it is the starting point.

Regardless, my point still stands the PF is a multiversal entity not bound to any timeline, it can casually dispatch of timelines and realities which would remove time from the equation. Then what is TT going to do? confused

Either you don't want to listen or you don't understand me.

Did the PF start the Big Bang in the DCU?

Do the Timelines work the same in both cosmologies?

There was a Time before the Big Bang in DC and Marvel, right?

ZH Parallax feats were Multiversal, TTs too.
Lets assume it can dispatch of a Timeline and remove Time from the Marvel reality, the DC reality is still independent and hence beyond its reach, isn't it? It had no part in DC creation hence not influence on it's timelines, which works differently.
So on neutral ground they will have to fight over the Timeline of an neutral and independent Universe, where considering their showings and displays of power and time manipulation the PF would be stomped hard.
In the Marvel U the TT might lose, though I still never saw the Pf display as much "power" as in that one instance. In the DCU she would be limited to her powers which had limits and her role would be not important at all.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Either you don't want to listen or you don't understand me.

Did the PF start the Big Bang in the DCU?

Do the Timelines work the same in both cosmologies?

There was a Time before the Big Bang in DC and Marvel, right?

ZH Parallax feats were Multiversal, TTs too.
Lets assume it can dispatch of a Timeline and remove Time from the Marvel reality, the DC reality is still independent and hence beyond its reach, isn't it? It had no part in DC creation hence not influence on it's timelines, which works differently.
So on neutral ground they will have to fight over the Timeline of an neutral and independent Universe, where considering their showings and displays of power and time manipulation the PF would be stomped hard.
In the Marvel U the TT might lose, though I still never saw the Pf display as much "power" as in that one instance. In the DCU she would be limited to her powers which had limits and her role would be not important at all.

Bro if they are on neutral ground in a neutral creation then their powers would for the sake of the forum battle still work the same.
TT can manipulate timelines, the PF can also manipulate timelines but can go a step further through its ability amputate and regrow timelines with a casual thought or destroy them completely. That ability remains within a neutral battleground. Therefore Jean Grey let alone the PF could handle TT by removing from the equation, that which TT needs to make his power relevant.

If theyre standing on the battle field then with a thought Jean Grey removes the timeline, what is TT going to do?

Furthermore the PF has displayed far more power than TT ever has. Time is just a single facet of reality. The PF can control all of reality down to its component parts, it is the multiversal energies of creation. The fact that it sustains all of creation tells you alone that it is on a different power level.

Batman-Prime

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Bro if they are on neutral ground in a neutral creation then their powers would for the sake of the forum battle still work the same.
TT can manipulate timelines, the PF can also manipulate timelines but can go a step further through its ability amputate and regrow timelines with a casual thought or destroy them completely. That ability remains within a neutral battleground. Therefore Jean Grey let alone the PF could handle TT by removing from the equation, that which TT needs to make his power relevant.

If theyre standing on the battle field then with a thought Jean Grey removes the timeline, what is TT going to do?

Furthermore the PF has displayed far more power than TT ever has. Time is just a single facet of reality. The PF can control all of reality down to its component parts, it is the multiversal energies of creation. The fact that it sustains all of creation tells you alone that it is on a different power level.

The Pf would TRY to remove the Timeline but given his greater powers over time, his experiance and his Timemanipulatiing feats he wouldn't let her, simple as that, he showed the power. He is better with Time then the PF, really.

BTW can you show me the PF taking out every and all timelines, removing Time in your words, Eternity, from existance? So that there is no time in the Universe?

CortSether

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Phoenix Force is among other things the Big Bang, the actual energies of creation

laughing

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
The Pf would TRY to remove the Timeline but given his greater powers over time, his experiance and his Timemanipulatiing feats he wouldn't let her, simple as that, he showed the power. He is better with Time then the PF, really.

BTW can you show me the PF taking out every and all timelines, removing Time in your words, Eternity, from existance? So that there is no time in the Universe?

Not true at all.

TT manipulates the content of timelines. Jeans Phoenix power allowed her to play editor and to amputate timelines and regrow them as and when she desired. Its like micro vs macro.

As stated in the bios, time came into being following the big bang. It is a facet of reality. If Jean was to casually destroy the timeline as she did here:

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7486/newxmen154herecomestomo.th.jpg

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7517/allnewofficialhandbooko.th.jpg

Then TT would have nothing to manipulate and would be powerless.

Using Jaspers as an example. He was an enormously powerful reality warper, but take him out of reality and his power then becomes redundant

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/3329/captainbritain198384mwo.th.gif

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/3329/captainbritain198384mwo.th.gif

Timelines begin with the Big Bang, they dont exist without reality. If the Phoenix Force destroyed the timeline it and TT were fighting in then what exactly would TT do?

Batman-Prime

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Forgive me if i came across as offensive but i was simply stating that your comments indicate a lack of understanding about the character youre debating about. Thats not offensive, just stating a fact, if you found offence in that then apologies.

Using bios off of Marvel.com bios which are created and editable by any who register on the site is about as credible as writing a university essay and referencing wikipedia as a source.

As i showed you, Eternitys official and published handbook bio clearly states that he is the embodiment of time and the chronal axis-

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/7517/allnewofficialhandbooko.th.jpg

Even your bio makes the distinction that he is the embodiment of the timeline.

It all clearly states that he was derivative of the Big Bang as well.

And you cant try and demean my point as opinion when clear as day and explicitly on panel (thereby holding greater credibility than all other sources) the Phoenix Force is called the Big Bang in sources as recent as the Avengers Vs X-men series-

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/9589/avxzone017.th.jpg

Big Bang

http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/8905/fantasticfour52212.th.jpg

The Firebird avatar, a flame from the BIG BANG

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4342/phoenixresurrectionreve.th.jpg

Doesnt get much clearer than that. The Phoenix Force as we know it is the sentient Big Bang. After the multiverse was reset by the M'kraan crystal, the Phoenix Force was reborn anew as the Big Bang and its sentience eventually awakened to this new reality

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3056/excalibur052p10.th.jpg

Eternity is the emodiment of the 616 timeline

Heres Eternity in Jeans palm-

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5170/nxm15421.th.jpg

Manipulated down to his component atoms. NUFF SAID

Ok, let's stay nice^^.

It's as good as those Handbooks and goes pretty well with most poeple opinions, no offense, your theory is just exotic.

And His word and his appearance tell us that he is also everything that is was and will ever be, right?

In the first "BigBang" scan the word Big Bang is missing, Tony says a lot but the word, I can find it...

A statement from Reed is nice. Though call it what you want is kind of vague...

As for the third scan "A Flame from the furnace of the big bang is in my opinion not the same as being the big bang itself. On the contrary it sound like it was spawned by the Big Bang, like it was "made" "Created" by it and not like it IS the BigBang or whats more important in control of it. It's like a tool... that's how it sounds.

4th scan, so it was born from the BigBang, it's sentience awakened after it, so it isn't more then what it is, a sentient destructive force born through the big bang. It can't be the space, the time, the concept of Death, it's not more then a part of the whole thing. Actually your evidence showed me exactly the contrary thing.

If the PF would be the Creator of the Marvel U and not a tool used to create the MArvel U, it should be in complete control of the Marvel Omniverse and all other Abstracts wouldn't be needed.

I think the PF is like a spark, it's vital but and helps to get the fire burning but it isn't the wood or more then a spark. A part of a larger system not more. It's not the "boss" of eternity, death or Galactus nor are they a part of the PF, they just use it.

Branlor Swift

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Eternity is the emodiment of the 616 timeline

Heres Eternity in Jeans palm-

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5170/nxm15421.th.jpg

Manipulated down to his component atoms. NUFF SAID Eternity is a badly wounded orphan universe?

Batman-Prime

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Timelines begin with the Big Bang, they dont exist without reality. If the Phoenix Force destroyed the timeline it and TT were fighting in then what exactly would TT do?

First the Pf would have to destroy all timelines, time itself which means Eternity, right? She never did such a thing. And one Timeline won't be enough, Time and Eternity would have to be gone for the TT to be without work in the Marvel U.

Since the Pf exists within the Timeline and is a part of the Universe. TT already knows the battle, the outcome and how to change it He would travel to the beginning of Time, to the BigBang if you insist and stop it from happening, easy right? Since Phoenix gained sentience after the BigBang he could change the Timeline to not allow that to happen.

ODG

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Eternity is a badly wounded orphan universe? This is also apparently Eternity being lit on fire:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534476_nxm-154-22.jpg

abhilegend

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Well its not really the same because TT is just manipulating time. He has control over one facet of existence. However TT needs reality, he needs a timestream for his powers to have relevance. If you think of a universe as a video file. TTs power is related to the timetrack of that file and enables him to pause reality at any point, fast forward, or rewind to parts he wants to visit or view. Cool. The video file itself is a manifestation of the multiversal Phoenix Force within reality. It has the power to enable one of its many hosts to also act as a software suite to do everything TT can but also play video editor and edit the timetrack itself, delete parts of it, rearrange the order of the timetrack and also apply special effects to change the content of the file from the original. Also with a host empowered to be able to manipulate the energy and matter of reality on a universal scale they could also act as a file converter to change the fundamental properties of the file. Or to send the file itself to the recycle bin.

The fact that a single one of its many multiversal hosts can out perform the TT whilst the Phoenix also empowers other hosts and also sustains creation shows you how out of his league TT would be against the PF itself.

A closer match would be TT vs the White Phoenix Of The Crown and he would still lose.

People too often make the mistake of ignoring what continuity has stated and shown and thinking that the hosts showings equate to all the PF is capable of or that the firebird avatar is the sum of the PF. It is not. It is a manifestation. Hosts performances are dependent on their experience, their intentions and whether said intentions coincide with the PFs agenda.

In Marvel the Phoenix Force determines the creation cycle meaning Entropy has no power over it.

A single host of the Force can manipulate all the matter and energy of the universe in her palm

A single host can dispose of timelines (the source of TTs power) with a thought

A host of the PF can contain a multiversal power source

TT is no match for the PF.
False on both fronts. Trapper manipulates both time and space, so he was manipulating entire DCU on a palm of his hands. Trapper also doesn't needs a reality to exist, he is a sentient timeline who was born at the instant of creation. How about we argue about the real feats of PF? Like what if trapper splits it like shiar and Iron man did and sends all these miniscule parts in a different timeline. Could they return in time to not lose via BFR? The only way to beat a fully powered time trapper is to destroy time across the creation like parallax did and that's not something phoenix can do.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by ODG
This is also apparently Eternity being lit on fire:

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/534476_nxm-154-22.jpg

In that scene Jeans just using telepathy, since when does telepathy burn physical matter? smile

ODG

^ Well I see the Phoenix flaring as clearly as I see the universe.

But if you're saying both are simple symbolic visualizations in her hands, I can get with that. You're right that all Jean did was use telepathy to nudge Scott. You hardly need to manifest the actual universe in your hands to do so.

thumb up

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Ok, let's stay nice^^.

It's as good as those Handbooks and goes pretty well with most poeple opinions, no offense, your theory is just exotic.

Its as good as the handbooks because it coincides with your opinion? Not good enough. Its a publicly editable info source like wikipedia. Not seen as reputable enough here for referencing. That would be officially published handbooks and whats stated and shown on panel.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
And His word and his appearance tell us that he is also everything that is was and will ever be, right?

Since the 1990's Eternity has been defined as the chronal axis. He embodies everything along the timeline however he is a sentient concept. He is not the physical substance of creation, thats where him and the PF differ.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
In the first "BigBang" scan the word Big Bang is missing, Tony says a lot but the word, I can find it...

Not really. Heres a clear mention-

Tony Stark in an effort to learn about the Phoenix Force uses particle accelerators to study the Big Bang.

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/363/avxzone016.th.jpg

He then states that in an attempt to kill the Phoenix Force, he needs to stop universal expansion, which we know is down to the Big Bang

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/9589/avxzone017.th.jpg

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
A statement from Reed is nice. Though call it what you want is kind of vague...

Vague how? He states clear as day that Galactus was transformed by the energies or creation. And then says those can be referred to as either the Phoenix Force or the Big Bang, equating them. Thats an explicit reference.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
As for the third scan "A Flame from the furnace of the big bang is in my opinion not the same as being the big bang itself. On the contrary it sound like it was spawned by the Big Bang, like it was "made" "Created" by it and not like it IS the BigBang or whats more important in control of it. It's like a tool... that's how it sounds.

The firebird is an avatar. Not the sum of the Phoenix Force but a manifestation of its sentience within reality.

Avatar-

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/6177/excalibur050p17.th.jpg

Avatar-

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5590/excalibur061p02.th.jpg

Avatar-

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/7776/excalibur050p22.th.jpg

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
4th scan, so it was born from the BigBang, it's sentience awakened after it, so it isn't more then what it is, a sentient destructive force born through the big bang. It can't be the space, the time, the concept of Death, it's not more then a part of the whole thing. Actually your evidence showed me exactly the contrary thing.

Nope. It is the Big Bang turned sentient as the scan clearly shows.

Which is why you get scans like this

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/2044/classicxmen00821.th.jpg

of the Phoenix Force saying it was born with the first fire but more importantly that it is all that is, everything that lives is touched by it and it is the mother of the stars. Stars being the largest concentrations of Big Bang matter

Which also ties into Kubik stating the same thing, the power source behind the stars is the Phoenix Force

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/3699/ffann02358.th.jpg

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/2092/ffann02359.th.jpg

If the PF was just a standalone flame from the Big Bang it wouldnt be all that is as stated, the power source behind the stars and if it was to leave reality it wouldnt result in a void as verified by Death and the Watcher-

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2769/excalibur02520.th.jpg

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
If the PF would be the Creator of the Marvel U and not a tool used to create the MArvel U, it should be in complete control of the Marvel Omniverse and all other Abstracts wouldn't be needed.

The PF isnt the creator of the Marvel Universe. If thats what you think im saying then no wonder you have an issue with my argument.

The PF was itself created, it is the sentient energies of all creation and it manifests at a universal level either as its Firebird avatar or through hosts to perpetuate evolution and the creation cycle. It plays a role as do the Abstracts however its feats are greater than the Abstracts and as Eternity admitted without the PF he would not exist.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I think the PF is like a spark, it's vital but and helps to get the fire burning but it isn't the wood or more then a spark. A part of a larger system not more. It's not the "boss" of eternity, death or Galactus nor are they a part of the PF, they just use it.

The PF perpetuates the creation cycle so it is the spark and the snuff, however it is on numerous occasions by reputable characters called the Big Bang, this point is verified by cosmics who call it the power source behind the stars and that without it in reality there would be no energy and matter a void. What turns the void into reality? The Big Bang.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by ODG
^ Well I see the Phoenix flaring as clearly as I see the universe.

But if you're saying both are simple symbolic visualizations in her hands, I can get with that. You're right that all Jean did was use telepathy to nudge Scott. You hardly need to manifest the actual universe in your hands to do so.

thumb up

When characters like Jean and Rachel use their telepathy they regularly manifest a Phoenix energy signature of psionic energy, but as we all know telepathic energy does not burn physical matter, so the universe in her hand did just fine.

Thanks for your time smile

ODG

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
When characters like Jean and Rachel use their telepathy they regularly manifest a Phoenix energy signature of psionic energy, but as we all know telepathic energy does not burn physical matter, so the universe in her hand did just fine.

Thanks for your time smile

I am well aware of Phoenix halos flaring up from their own person when they use telepathy. Not inside or on top of other objects or people's heads when they use telepathy on them. And, yes, I recognize the symbolic visualization of a universe was just fine. Because a simple telepathic nudge of Scott's mind hardly requires manifesting an entire actual universe.

Thanks for wasting our's. kinda

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
First the Pf would have to destroy all timelines, time itself which means Eternity, right? She never did such a thing. And one Timeline won't be enough, Time and Eternity would have to be gone for the TT to be without work in the Marvel U.

Since the Pf exists within the Timeline and is a part of the Universe. TT already knows the battle, the outcome and how to change it He would travel to the beginning of Time, to the BigBang if you insist and stop it from happening, easy right? Since Phoenix gained sentience after the BigBang he could change the Timeline to not allow that to happen.

Time is a facet of the universe. If you destroy the universe then time ends in that dimension.

Phoenix as shown on panel and as verified by the handbook has casually destroyed a timeline, not just a universe/Eternity at a specific point in time, but instead the Here Comes Tomorrow timeline. So yes she has done such a thing.

And why would she have to destroy all timelines? That makes no sense. She'd just have to destroy the timeline that the battle takes place in and then TT is powerless in a similar fashion to this-

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/3329/captainbritain198384mwo.th.gif

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/3329/captainbritain198384mwo.th.gif

A perfectly gd analogy. Remove the universe from the equation, render the battlefield a void and then the characters wouldnt be within a timeline for TTs powers to have any effect. What is he gonna do? TT manipulates the timestream and can effect those within it, remove the sculptors clay and what use is he? Zzzz. DEAD. erm

Lord Feron

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I was going to say Trapper, but those scans convinced me otherwise.

Phoenix, easily.

cdtm

Originally posted by Lord Feron

All we need is h1 arguing on Phoenix's side, and we'll have him..

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by ODG
I am well aware of Phoenix halos flaring up from their own person when they use telepathy. Not inside or on top of other objects or people's heads when they use telepathy on them. And, yes, I recognize the symbolic visualization of a universe was just fine. Because a simple telepathic nudge of Scott's mind hardly requires manifesting an entire actual universe.

Thanks for wasting our's. kinda

Im not going to play your game.
You tried to be clever and funny with your universe on fire point, i reminded you she was using telepathy and flopped it for ya. Now youre trying to mount another attack. Youre a funny guy smile

ODG

^ Why would anybody willingly contribute to their own deconstruction?

A Phoenix users' own firebird halo (which doesn't appear on top of other people's heads or objects) has nothing to do with a symbolic visualization of a Phoenix firebird or a symbolic visualization of a universe. Because we both know you don't need to hold an entire actual universe into your hands to transmit one telepathic suggestion to one person's mind.

abhilegend

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Time is a facet of the universe. If you destroy the universe then time ends in that dimension.

Phoenix as shown on panel and as verified by the handbook has casually destroyed a timeline, not just a universe/Eternity at a specific point in time, but instead the Here Comes Tomorrow timeline. So yes she has done such a thing.

And why would she have to destroy all timelines? That makes no sense. She'd just have to destroy the timeline that the battle takes place in and then TT is powerless in a similar fashion to this-

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/3329/captainbritain198384mwo.th.gif

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/3329/captainbritain198384mwo.th.gif

A perfectly gd analogy. Remove the universe from the equation, render the battlefield a void and then the characters wouldnt be within a timeline for TTs powers to have any effect. What is he gonna do? TT manipulates the timestream and can effect those within it, remove the sculptors clay and what use is he? Zzzz. DEAD. erm

Trapper is a sentient timeline himself who exists at the end of time where neither time nor space can exist because of entropy. Learn about a character before arguing against it.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by abhilegend
Trapper is a sentient timeline himself who exists at the end of time where neither time nor space can exist because of entropy. Learn about a character before arguing against it.

Unless theyre fighting within Time Trappers gut i dont see how that changes anything.

I read your earlier post and it effected nothing, so i continued on with the main argument going on between me and Batman-Prime.

Thank you thumb up

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by ODG
^ Why would anybody willingly contribute to their own deconstruction?

A Phoenix users' own firebird halo (which doesn't appear on top of other people's heads or objects) has nothing to do with a symbolic visualization of a Phoenix firebird or a symbolic visualization of a universe. Because we both know you don't need to hold an entire actual universe into your hands to transmit one telepathic suggestion to one person's mind.

Contributing to my what? eek!

Lets not get ahead of ourselves now big grin

Not true at all. Telepaths unique energy signatures often enshroud what theyre connected to, you can see this often with Karmas zig zag signature and Psylockes butterfly im sorry youve missed that well known part of continuity.

We'll leave it at that shall we? smile

ODG

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Contributing to my what? eek!

Lets not get ahead of ourselves now big grin

I don't recall firebird halos enveloping people who are being telepathically nudged, much less universe-sized firebirds enveloping an entire universe. Of course, we can just look to Cyclops himself in the next page and see no firebird halo there.

I've got no issue with both of us conceding that a mere telepathic nudge in no way requires physically manifesting a universe into your palms. Nobody could possibly think otherwise.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by ODG
I don't recall firebird halos enveloping people who are being telepathically nudged, much less universe-sized firebirds enveloping an entire universe. Of course, we can just look to Cyclops himself in the next page and see no firebird halo there.

I've got no issue with both of us conceding that a mere telepathic nudge in no way requires physically manifesting a universe into your palms. Nobody could possibly think otherwise.

The Phoenix icon has often enveloped targets of Jean/Rachels telepathic prowess. Just as the unique energy signatures of other telepaths also regularly display over a target. Again. Im sorry youve missed that. It would seem some background reading is required. smile

Given the medical imagery and references made in the scene, the universe being called a "patient" and having an infected timeline amputated from it, the universe then being badly wounded thereby necessitating treatment in the "hospital" (which was revealed to be the white hot room) Jeans manifestation of the universe within the "hospital" all seems to make sense in this cosmic hospital drama. The Phoenix hosts were made out to be cosmic surgeons and where best to treat a severely wounded patient but a hospital smile

Doesnt have to make sense. If you dont like it write your own comic book. However we're told whats going on, certain points such as Jean manipulating the atomic structure of a universe are verified in handbooks and by on panel statements. So we know whats going on, we just are never told why it has to happen that way. Which is the case with a lot of comic book melodrama. Oh well. What happened happened big grin

"Id"

I don't agree with everything Galaticstorm says. But amputating reality 15104 from the divergent point, for a new future to grow from. Was a very literal, and big part of Here Comes Tomorrow.

abhilegend

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Unless theyre fighting within Time Trappers gut i dont see how that changes anything.

I read your earlier post and it effected nothing, so i continued on with the main argument going on between me and Batman-Prime.

Thank you thumb up

In other words you know nothing about time trapper. Concession accepted.

CortSether

Oh gawd, does anyone here really continue to fall for GS's bullpoop?

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by CortSether
Oh gawd, does anyone here really continue to fall for GS's bullpoop?

Hi troll smile

CortSether

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Hi troll smile

Hi deluded Phoenix fanboy smile

zopzop

Originally posted by CortSether
Hi deluded Phoenix fanboy smile

You know that saying about glass houses right? If you don't look it up. roll eyes (sarcastic)

CortSether

Originally posted by zopzop
You know that saying about glass houses right? If you don't look it up. roll eyes (sarcastic)

As if you're one to call me out about glass houses roll eyes (sarcastic)

TheGodKiller

^^Get a room , you two .

CortSether

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
^^Get a room , you two .

I'm not payin'.

Sundipped

Originally posted by CortSether
I'm not payin'.

Well at least tell Zop to change that god awful avatar and sig.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by Sundipped
Well at least tell Zop to change that god awful avatar and sig.
You're just jealous because Shao "the Puffy Puff" Lao beat your beloved Phoenix....

Sundipped

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
You're just jealous because Shao "the Puffy Puff" Lao beat your beloved Phoenix....

No it didn't.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by Sundipped
No it didn't.
Here , this'll help :
http://www.jealousycontrolled.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Real-Mans-Guide-to-Controlling-Jealousy-e1334614964466.jpg
http://www.jealousycontrolled.com/how-to-cure-jealousy/

Sundipped

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Here , this'll help :
http://www.jealousycontrolled.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Real-Mans-Guide-to-Controlling-Jealousy-e1334614964466.jpg
http://www.jealousycontrolled.com/how-to-cure-jealousy/

Seriously, any dude who buys/has to read that is a wuss of the highest order.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by Sundipped
Seriously, any dude who buys/has to read that is a wuss of the highest order.
You just described yourself . stick out tongue

Sundipped

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
You just described yourself . stick out tongue

doh
I set myself up for that one.

You're lucky you threw some smilies in there with that. mad

zopzop

Originally posted by Sundipped
Well at least tell Zop to change that god awful avatar and sig.
Better?
Originally posted by CortSether
I'm not payin'.
Cheapskate.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by abhilegend
In other words you know nothing about time trapper. Concession accepted.

No concession at all. For TTs powers to have any relevance he needs the battle to take place within a timeline. The Phoenix Force can casually amputate timelines and destroy them with just a thought. So once the PF has done that, just what can TT do?

You mentioned he lived at the end of time, that he is a sentient timeline himself, great. Just what effect does that have on the battle?

If you have some genius point to bring to the table that is not obvious to everyone else why not mention it?

This is just like if Storm was fighting Classic Iceman. Storm could limit Bobbys ability to fight and render him useless by removing ambient moisture from the air. The same moisture Bobbys power needs to create ice. That doesnt mean Storm has greater control over ice than Bobby, shes removing the medium that Bobbys power needs to do anything.

In the same way, all PF has to do is destroy the timeline with a thought and then the battle is over smile

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
You're just jealous because Shao "the Puffy Puff" Lao beat your beloved Phoenix....

Never confirmed.

It was stated that legends told of that story. LEGENDS. Not historical records. LEGENDS.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by CortSether
Oh gawd, does anyone here really continue to fall for GS's bullpoop?

And what bullcrap would that be?

I asked you to point out my errors and lets debate each one a single point at a time and you made a joke of the issue and scarpered. Why? Because me and you both know you aint got shit on me cool

I will ask you again, if you want to go at it point by point then i am more than willing to shed light on point of contention. shifty

A refusal to take part in this followed by a continuation of your mocking trollish behavior will only serve to highlight the fact that your stance is without merit.

Very much a dud smile

I anticipate your response eek!

CortSether

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And what bullcrap would that be?

I asked you to point out my errors and lets debate each one a single point at a time and you made a joke of the issue and scarpered. Why? Because me and you both know you aint got shit on me cool

I will ask you again, if you want to go at it point by point then i am more than willing to shed light on point of contention. shifty

A refusal to take part in this followed by a continuation of your mocking trollish behavior will only serve to highlight the fact that your stance is without merit.

Very much a dud smile

I anticipate your response eek!

Oh lawdie, hasn't Mr. Master silenced you on this topic already? You two have gone over literally every point there is to make about Phoenix. There's no need for me to go at it with you afterwards, especially since you'll just repeat the same stuff that's already been refuted by others.

Sundipped

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Never confirmed.

It was stated that legends told of that story. LEGENDS. Not historical records. LEGENDS.

Even when they potrayed how the legend played out in the New Avengers tie-in, there is no evidence of the PF losing.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by CortSether
Oh lawdie, hasn't Mr. Master silenced you on this topic already? You two have gone over literally every point there is to make about Phoenix. There's no need for me to go at it with you afterwards, especially since you'll just repeat the same stuff that's already been refuted by others.

Mr Master has never ever silenced me on the issue.

Maybe Mr Masters viewpoints more closely coincide with your own so you have a bias to whatever he spews but that does not change the fact that whatever point i make i can back up with scans explicitly stating the same point.

You mocked a statement i made saying the PF was the Big Bang, u are shown a number of scans stating the very point, Phoenix is the Big Bang, Phoenix is the life force of reality, the Phoenix saying it is all that is and mother of the stars and you ignore that because it doesnt coincide with your opinion on how things should be or because you believe the Forces combat showings dont reflect such a nature. Neither good enough to counter explicit on panel evidence.

You just have to deal with it im afraid erm