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Fight takes place on the Astral Plane, and Onslaught has access to Nate & Franklins powers.

Didn't Onslaught crush Jean while she was using the Phoenix Force? I don't see Dark Phoenix or White Phoenix doing any better against Onslaught on the astral plane with Nate and Franklins powers to boost.

Originally posted by mastagambit
Didn't Onslaught crush Jean while she was using the Phoenix Force? I don't see Dark Phoenix or White Phoenix doing any better against Onslaught on the astral plane with Nate and Franklins powers to boost. wasnt that just a representation and not the actual PF?

I don't believe Jean had the Phoenix Force when she fought Onslaught...

Yes, she had the Phoenix force IIRC.

I don't think it was the PF, just a representation.

Jean should take it. Onslaught misused Nate & Franklin

Originally posted by carver9
Yes, she had the Phoenix force IIRC.

No she didn't.

The Phoenix Effect was only symbolic.

The Phoenix Force did not return back to Jean until Morrison's run.

Originally posted by RyanAutumns
wasnt that just a representation and not the actual PF?

It was a representation on the Astral plane. She could tap into it from there and she did and he crushed her.

Originally posted by mastagambit
It was a representation on the Astral plane. She could tap into it from there and she did and he crushed her. if it was the actual PF dont you think Onslaught would have tried to absorb it instead of just crushing it?

Originally posted by RyanAutumns
if it was the actual PF dont you think Onslaught would have tried to absorb it instead of just crushing it?


It was the actual Phoenix Force and at the time she told Juggernaut 'I am called Phoenix now and I have enough power to hold you until the others arrive'.
As for why didn't Onslaught absorb her or try to? Well he wanted her to know that Xavier was not the 'good guy' she thought of him and he didn't come to fight or try to absorb her powers or whatever. He wanted her to know who he was that's why he toyed with her.

I thought it was the Phoenix force. Didn't she also conjure the force when the Shiar empire attacked the mansion IIRC. Yes, it was still there.

It wasn't the full Phoenix Force. She actually only started to regain it later on.

Jean

wpotc

Originally posted by mastagambit
Didn't Onslaught crush Jean while she was using the Phoenix Force? I don't see Dark Phoenix or White Phoenix doing any better against Onslaught on the astral plane with Nate and Franklins powers to boost.



It wasn't the PF in no shape or form it was a psychic representation conjured by Onslaught on the Astral plane to persuade Jean to join him Jean didn't regain the PF until NXM by Grant Morrison. It should be noted that Jean Grey can and has manifested the PF RAPTOR w/o actually having the PF because its the expression of her psi-powers.

Any ways Onslaught isn't beating WPOTC, hell he's not beating the DP either.

Originally posted by celestialbodies
It wasn't the PF in no shape or form it was a psychic representation conjured by Onslaught on the Astral plane to persuade Jean to join him Jean didn't regain the PF until NXM by Grant Morrison. It should be noted that Jean Grey can and has manifested the PF RAPTOR w/o actually having the PF because its the expression of her psi-powers.

Any ways Onslaught isn't beating WPOTC, hell he's not beating the DP either.



It is debatable whether it was the actual force or not. But I will say it was some sort of manifestation or the other. Whether you wish to call it the PF Raptor or not,she did manifest a form of it on the astral plane and he crushed it and knocked her from the astral plane.

Originally posted by mastagambit
It is debatable whether it was the actual force or not. But I will say it was some sort of manifestation or the other. Whether you wish to call it the PF Raptor or not,she did manifest a form of it on the astral plane and he crushed it and knocked her from the astral plane.


So your saying Onslaught not only summoned but destroyed the actual PF, honestly its not really debatable before he created the raptor he spoke about Jean being the Phoenix it was merely a bid to get her to join him. It was a psychic manifestation an illusion on the astral plane nothing more nothing less, and no she didn't manifest anything he did it to gain her favor when it didn't work he crushed a PSYCHIC MANIFESTATION.

I brought up Jean manifesting the PF raptor that firebird form because people seems to be confused about a few things one Jean Grey can and has manifested the PF raptor without being connected to the PF because it is the form her psi-powers take when their full realized, Jean Grey has used the name Phoenix and worn the costume w/o having the actual PF, and last but not least Jean Grey didn't gain or exhibit the PF's powers again until NXM though she had sporadically manifested a PF' raptor which again is the expression of her psychic powers. Oh and it should be noted the PF doesn't exist on the Astral Plane it exists in the WHR outside of time and space.

Originally posted by celestialbodies
So your saying Onslaught not only summoned but destroyed the actual PF, honestly its not really debatable before he created the raptor he spoke about Jean being the Phoenix it was merely a bid to get her to join him. It was a psychic manifestation an illusion on the astral plane nothing more nothing less, and no she didn't manifest anything he did it to gain her favor when it didn't work he crushed a PSYCHIC MANIFESTATION.

I brought up Jean manifesting the PF raptor that firebird form because people seems to be confused about a few things one Jean Grey can and has manifested the PF raptor without being connected to the PF because it is the form her psi-powers take when their full realized, Jean Grey has used the name Phoenix and worn the costume w/o having the actual PF, and last but not least Jean Grey didn't gain or exhibit the PF's powers again until NXM though she had sporadically manifested a PF' raptor which again is the expression of her psychic powers. Oh and it should be noted the PF doesn't exist on the Astral Plane it exists in the WHR outside of time and space.



I did not say he 'summoned or destroyed' the actual Phoenix Force. Now it's debatable whether it was the actual Phoenix Force or not. He was taunting her and brought up her past by telling her to 'remember the unbridled cosmic might of the Phoenix Force.' While stating that you could say he brought up a 'psychic manifestation of the Phoenix Force to goad her into joining him.
However that did not work and in her own words she said he 'fumbled the ball by trying to stir up her anger and disappointment.' And she unleashed a 'flamed based attacked' with the Phoenix Raptor positioned behind her.Thus signifying the Phoenix Force was in effect at that specific time.
Onslaught then proceeded to counter her feeble attempt at an attack by crushing the Phoenix Force. Not destroying it,then knocked her from the astral plane.

Originally posted by mastagambit
I did not say he 'summoned or destroyed' the actual Phoenix Force. Now it's debatable whether it was the actual Phoenix Force or not. He was taunting her and brought up her past by telling her to 'remember the unbridled cosmic might of the Phoenix Force.' While stating that you could say he brought up a 'psychic manifestation of the Phoenix Force to goad her into joining him.
However that did not work and in her own words she said he 'fumbled the ball by trying to stir up her anger and disappointment.' And she unleashed a 'flamed based attacked' with the Phoenix Raptor positioned behind her.Thus signifying the Phoenix Force was in effect at that specific time.
Onslaught then proceeded to counter her feeble attempt at an attack by crushing the Phoenix Force. Not destroying it,then knocked her from the astral plane. ok but in this battle its the FULL PF with a more experienced Jean Grey, not some weak manifestion of of the PF

Originally posted by RyanAutumns
ok but in this battle its the FULL PF with a more experienced Jean Grey, not some weak manifestion of of the PF


Even with Full PF at her disposal what is to stop Onslaught from taking her powers as his own?
He has Franklin and Nate powers to boost,and the fight takes place on the astral plane where he was 'born'. Onslaught should be more versed than any version of Jean battling on the astral plane.
And for people commenting that she did not regain the PF until Morrison's run then they need to read Uncanny X-Men 381 when they fought the Neo she had access to the PF.Not some psychic manifestation or Phoenix Echo,but the Phoenix Force.
She even made the raptor appear and demonstrated the powers to Cable. This was in Claremont's run.

She clearly did not have the phoenix force in the Onslaught saga. Given that Onslaught was trying to persuade Jean to join his cause, offer her to rekindle he lost power to the Phoenix Force.


/end

Originally posted by mastagambit
Even with Full PF at her disposal what is to stop Onslaught from taking her powers as his own?
He has Franklin and Nate powers to boost,and the fight takes place on the astral plane where he was 'born'. Onslaught should be more versed than any version of Jean battling on the astral plane.
And for people commenting that she did not regain the PF until Morrison's run then they need to read Uncanny X-Men 381 when they fought the Neo she had access to the PF.Not some psychic manifestation or Phoenix Echo,but the Phoenix Force.
She even made the raptor appear and demonstrated the powers to Cable. This was in Claremont's run.


Um no, once again Jean Grey manifesting a PF raptor is not the same as Jean Grey having the actual PF, people get confused because she can manifest that raptor however it is not the actual PF.

She must die to gain access to the actual PF, per NXM Grant Morrison's run the PF is in Jean's blood which is why she can manifest the raptor, its also why her powers at baseline has cosmic reserves again this power can appear fiery and as the PF raptor but only through death can she re-connect to the Phoenix Conscious-ness in the WHR thus becoming "The Phoenix". The Phoenix is not the raptor its really a force and a state of being its why in the original DPS she had to died to be reborn and again in NXM Logan had to "kill" her to become "The Phoenix.

So WPoTC wins