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AotC Yoda and RotS Anakin meet in the hangar bay seen in the end of AotC.

Both can only use their Force abilities defensively. No offensive TK, etc.

Lightsaber duel.

To the death.

Who wins?

Yoda stomps

Yoda only stalemated Dooku in AotC.

Anakin defeated a superior version of Dooku.

Yoda also stalemated Sidious. No reason to believe he became vastly more powerful between EP 2 and 3.

Plus Yoda trained Dooku so it's likely Dooku knows Yoda's style pretty well a la Anakin v Obi.

Also take into account Dooku ran from Yoda which tells us he knew he could not win where as he was actually holding off both Anakin and Obi at the same time for awhile.

Originally posted by juggerman
Yoda also stalemated Sidious.

RotS Yoda stalemated Sidious - AotC Yoda, who had tons of trouble with pre-Clone Wars Dooku, would get murdered by RotS Sidious.


Originally posted by juggerman

No reason to believe he became vastly more powerful between EP 2 and 3.

Sure, if you've just had a Lobotomy.


Originally posted by juggerman

Also take into account Dooku ran from Yoda which tells us he knew he could not win where as he was actually holding off both Anakin and Obi at the same time for awhile.

And RotS Anakin would kill that version of Dooku, and in a shorter amount of time than it took Yoda to just stalemate.

Yoda clearly had the upper hand in his fight with Dooku, which facilitated Dooku's creating a diversion in order to escape.

That said, in a purely sabers duel, I'd take Zonakin.

Based on what? What shows Yoda getting more powerful?

Where did Yoda have trouble with Dooku? He wasn't even trying hard and was basically just holding him off. Probably because he didn't wanna kill his former padawan. Also you failed to address my point about Dooku knowing Yoda much more intimately than Anakin would.

Dooku had an advantage that Anakin won't which is hours of sparring just like Anakin had with Obi. Anakin wouldn't know what he was steping into.

Again Yoda stomps

Originally posted by Harbinger
Yoda clearly had the upper hand in his fight with Dooku, which facilitated Dooku's creating a diversion in order to escape.

That said, in a purely sabers duel, I'd take Zonakin.

No way does Yoda stomps.

Originally posted by juggerman
Based on what? What shows Yoda getting more powerful?

Yoda goes from having trouble lifting a steel guider, to being able to manhandle a pair of CIS Landing-craft, for one thing.

Also, his swordsmanship developed considerably in leaps, from not being able to pacify a pre-Clone Wars Dooku - to being able to disarm Sidious in sabers.

And that's just a drop in the ocean.


Originally posted by juggerman

Where did Yoda have trouble with Dooku? He wasn't even trying hard and was basically just holding him off. Probably because he didn't wanna kill his former padawan.


If Yoda could have halted Dooku with any kind of ease, he would have done so. The Republic was at stake.


Originally posted by juggerman

Also you failed to address my point about Dooku knowing Yoda much more intimately than Anakin would.

Dooku had an advantage that Anakin won't which is hours of sparring just like Anakin had with Obi. Anakin wouldn't know what he was steping into.

Again Yoda stomps


Even if Yoda did win, which he wouldn't, it wouldn't be a stomp by any means.

A RotS Anakin (I should have specified we're talking about Zonakin here) is considerably beyond his Pre-Clone Wars self - prior experience with Dooku, greater swordsmanship mastery and a much more developed sense and usage in the Force.

Anakin would not only entirely know what he was stepping into - he would murder this Dooku.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Yoda goes from having trouble lifting a steel guider, to being able to manhandle a pair of CIS Landing-craft, for one thing.

Lol you think everyone got a hundred times more powerful in the clone wars.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Also, his swordsmanship developed considerably in leaps, from not being able to pacify a pre-Clone Wars Dooku - to being able to disarm Sidious in sabers.

And that's just a drop in the ocean.

Neither a 900 year old Jedi Master nor a Sith Lord in his 80's are going to make any kind of significant improvement in 3 years.

Also Yoda did disarm Sidious. The scene is missed out in the film, but it's in the script. And we see in the film that one scene Yoda and Sidious are in a Saber duel, whilst in the next scene Sidious's Saber is gone.

Your also making an assumption that there's a significant difference between Sidious and Dooku in a Pure Fencing contest.





Originally posted by Rookwood
If Yoda could have halted Dooku with any kind of ease, he would have done so. The Republic was at stake.


Even if Yoda did win, which he wouldn't, it wouldn't be a stomp by any means.

Ah finally I agree with you. Yes Count Dooku is one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time. He of course will not go down to Yoda in a 10 second stomp, or anything close to that.

But he will lose to Yoda.

Originally posted by Rookwood
A RotS Anakin (I should have specified we're talking about Zonakin here) is considerably beyond his Pre-Clone Wars self - prior experience with Dooku, greater swordsmanship mastery and a much more developed sense and usage in the Force.


Yes "In the Zone" Anakin with the pristine clarity he used to stomp Dooku would most likely defeat Yoda in a pure Saber duel. He might even take the all out Imo.

But 9 times out of 10 when Anakin doesn't have that pristine clarity and doesn't unleash the nuclear furnace in his heart, Yoda will stomp him.

There is no difference between AOTC Yoda and ROTS Yoda.

I'd say Yoda wins after a good fight. Yoda has the advantage of speed and skill, whereas Anakin has the advantage of strength.

Comparing ROTS Anakin's fight with Dooku to AOTC Yoda's fight with Dooku, without considering the circumstances, is why ABC logic does not always work. First of all, Yoda was greatly holding back against Dooku, which is basically why he did not attack Dooku telekenetically. Second, Yoda does not have the reach that Anakin does, which would make it harder for Yoda to aim for Dooku's arms. And thirdly, Yoda does not have the strength that "in the zone" Anakin does, which is basically how Anakin eventually overcame Dooku, by wearing him down via superior strength; he did not out-skill or out-speed Dooku. So, no, just because Anakin defeated Dooku quicker than a Yoda who was holding back, does not make Anakin superior to Yoda. That's almost like saying Savage is superior to Yoda just because he disarmed Dooku and sent him flying on his back in one saber strike. We know Yoda would destroy Savage in pure sabers. Remember, Yoda did disarm Sidious, who blitzed three sabermasters in seconds, and then forced Windu (Dooku's equal) back - nearly defeating him until Windu fully tapped into Vapaad.

Also, it's worth noting that Anakin has never fought someone of Yoda's size, whereas Yoda has tons of experience fighting opponents of Anakin's size. Another advantage for Yoda.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
First of all, Yoda was greatly holding back against Dooku, which is basically why he did not attack Dooku telekenetically.

Wrong.

Maybe you need to go back and watch AotC.

The reason Yoda did not attack Dooku telekinetically, was because they had already had a contest of Force abilities, and more or less stalemated there.

"It is obvious this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skill with the lightsaber."
―Dooku



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Second, Yoda does not have the reach that Anakin does, which would make it harder for Yoda to aim for Dooku's arms.

- And Anakin's. Thanks for helping my case.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

And thirdly, Yoda does not have the strength that "in the zone" Anakin does, which is basically how Anakin eventually overcame Dooku, by wearing him down via superior strength; he did not out-skill or out-speed Dooku.


http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/michael-jordan-laugh.gif

Go watch RotS again, buddy.

Go to the Anakin/Dooku duel - slow down and freeze-frame the seconds before Anakin chops off Dooku's hands. Watch what he does there.

Come back and tell me what happens in the seconds before.

He specifically out-skilled him.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

So, no, just because Anakin defeated Dooku quicker than a Yoda who was holding back, does not make Anakin superior to Yoda.

Perhaps not, but it likely makes RotS Anakin Zonakin equal to AotC Yoda in sabers.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Remember, Yoda did disarm Sidious, who blitzed three sabermasters in seconds,

RotS Yoda did that - not AotC Yoda - who Sidious would very likely defeat in sabers.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

and then forced Windu (Dooku's equal) back - nearly defeating him until Windu fully tapped into Vapaad.


First, Windu is Dooku's superior, second - is this from that CGI series bullshit?


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Also, it's worth noting that Anakin has never fought someone of Yoda's size, whereas Yoda has tons of experience fighting opponents of Anakin's size. Another advantage for Yoda.

Zonakin could handle it.

Originally posted by Rookwood
superior, second - is this from that CGI series bullshit?





Lol. He's talking about Revenge of the Sith.

And I like how you call the CGI series bullshit, whilst using most your proof from the CW mini series.

Whether you like the show or not the CGI show IS T-Canon. That puts it higher in canonicity than any SW medium except for the movies, movie screenplays/scripts, and any direct statements from Lucas.

You thinking it's BS doesn't change that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol you think everyone got a hundred times more powerful in the clone wars.

Significantly better.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Neither a 900 year old Jedi Master nor a Sith Lord in his 80's are going to make any kind of significant improvement in 3 years.

If by "significant" you mean allowing you to defeat your enemies/rivals, then yes, yes they did.

There's always room for improvement.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Also Yoda did disarm Sidious. The scene is missed out in the film, but it's in the script. And we see in the film that one scene Yoda and Sidious are in a Saber duel, whilst in the next scene Sidious's Saber is gone.

Yup. I already pointed that out. *Strokes his snout and feeds him a treat*


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Your also making an assumption that there's a significant difference between Sidious and Dooku in a Pure Fencing contest.

There is.

Dooku didn't feel he was skilled enough to challenge Sidious in combat. Period.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

He of course will not go down to Yoda in a 10 second stomp, or anything close to that.

But he will lose to Yoda.

Not AotC Yoda.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Yes "In the Zone" Anakin with the pristine clarity he used to stomp Dooku would most likely defeat Yoda in a pure Saber duel. He might even take the all out Imo.

But 9 times out of 10 when Anakin doesn't have that pristine clarity and doesn't unleash the nuclear furnace in his heart, Yoda will stomp him.

Nope. Zonakin is who we're discussing here. Not Pre-suit Vader.

At least one person is this thread already caught onto that without needing to be told.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol. He's talking about Revenge of the Sith.

And I like how you call the CGI series bullshit, whilst using most your proof from the CW mini series.

Whether you like the show or not the CGI show IS T-Canon. That puts it higher in canonicity than any SW medium except for the movies, movie screenplays/scripts, and any direct statements from Lucas.

You thinking it's BS doesn't change that.

Indeed, I thought he was talking about some crap from the CGI series at first.

And that CGI series still belongs in a Nick Jr television line-up.

Originally posted by NTJack0
There is no difference between AOTC Yoda and ROTS Yoda.

http://i.imgur.com/Q8uDX.gif

^

Because what he said was clearly

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/030/5/1/_sarcasm__HILARIOUS__sarcasm__by_TheJuraj.png

Still waiting for rebuttals.

Please stop stealing my gif's. Thanks.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Wrong.

Maybe you need to go back and watch AotC.

The reason Yoda did not attack Dooku telekinetically, was because they had already had a contest of Force abilities, and more or less stalemated there.


Yoda clearly held back on Dooku during their force contest. The only force attack Yoda used against Dooku was Dooku's own redirected lightning (probably knowing Dooku knew how to block it or at least evade it). So it's safe to say that Yoda was also holding back during their saber contest. Yoda only wanted to capture Dooku, not kill him, and he also had feelings for Dooku.


Originally posted by Rookwood
"It is obvious this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skill with the lightsaber."
―Dooku


facepalm


Originally posted by Rookwood
And Anakin's. Thanks for helping my case.


lol, why would Yoda only target Anakin's arms? You said the duel was to the death, so I'm assuming Yoda would not hold back striking a fatal blow if he sees an opening.


Originally posted by Rookwood
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/michael-jordan-laugh.gif


These kind of pics are only funny if you're not making a fool of yourself.


Originally posted by Rookwood
Go watch RotS again, buddy.

Go to the Anakin/Dooku duel - slow down and freeze-frame the seconds before Anakin chops off Dooku's hands. Watch what he does there.

Come back and tell me what happens in the seconds before.

He specifically out-skilled him.


Anakin did not out-skill him. Recovering from the strength of Anakin's saber strikes is what slowed Dooku down, which enabled Anakin to do his little fancy move on him. Being "in the zone" did not give Anakin more skill.


Originally posted by Rookwood
Perhaps not, but it likely makes RotS Anakin Zonakin equal to AotC Yoda in sabers.


You were implying that "Zonakin" was AOTC Yoda's superior. Either way you're not making a convincing argument.


Originally posted by Rookwood
RotS Yoda did that - not AotC Yoda - who Sidious would very likely defeat in sabers.


You do realize that Yoda had been a practicing Jedi for centuries by the time of AOTC, right? I find it very unlikely that his talents increased that dramatically within three more years (they didn't). You're being silly, right?


Originally posted by Rookwood
First, Windu is Dooku's superior


No, he is not. And even if he is, the fact that Sidious nearly overpowered him right after dropping his companions in seconds, would pretty much help my argument more than yours, don't you think? Think about it.


Originally posted by Rookwood
Zonakin could handle it.


The advantage is still in Yoda's favor.

Who is Rockwood a sock of? He doesn't talk with enough swag to be Jessiah. Dave doesn't use italics.

You know I didn't even realize that he may be a sock until you said it. And if he's not, then he sure does pick up KMC terminology pretty quick.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Still waiting for rebuttals. Lol. Buttals.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yoda clearly held back on Dooku during their force contest. The only force attack Yoda used against Dooku was Dooku's own redirected lightning (probably knowing Dooku knew how to block it or at least evade it). So it's safe to say that Yoda was also holding back during their saber contest. Yoda only wanted to capture Dooku, not kill him, and he also had feelings for Dooku.


He clearly didn't.

Yoda being able to pacify Dooku with a lightsaber would be difficult - he would have to land a cut that would badly injure or mutilate the Count.

With the Force on the other hand, he has a decent chance (if he's capable of actually doing this) of knocking Dooku out with a small piece of debris, or even forcing him onto the ground and holding him there for capture.

He wasn't capable of pacifying Dooku at all with TK - they were more or less evenly-matched in the Force as Dooku would later note.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

facepalm


The light stings, Hmm?


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

lol, why would Yoda only target Anakin's arms? You said the duel was to the death, so I'm assuming Yoda would not hold back striking a fatal blow if he sees an opening.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Second, Yoda does not have the reach that Anakin does, which would make it harder for Yoda to aim for Dooku's arms.

If he doesn't have the reach to target the long extremities of either Dooku or Anakin, then is he supposed to reach a target such as the torso, which is even further away?


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

These kind of pics are only funny if you're not making a fool of yourself.

The only one here appearing blatantly stupid is you.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Anakin did not out-skill him. Recovering from the strength of Anakin's saber strikes is what slowed Dooku down, which enabled Anakin to do his little fancy move on him. Being "in the zone" did not give Anakin more skill.

You either have skill or you don't - and by this point in time, having clarity in the Force wouldn't give Anakin sudden access to techniques he never knew before.

No, it's obvious he had developed in skill - and it was a mix of Anakin's battering Dooku's limbs, his technique to grab Dooku's wrists, pull them forward - and have the speed to instantly bring his saber down, around and through the other man's extremities, to win the duel.

Strength, skill and speed.

That, he didn't have last time to defeat the powerful Count. But through skill progression AKA significant improvement, he was later able to.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

You were implying that "Zonakin" was AOTC Yoda's superior. Either way you're not making a convincing argument.

Then you're slow to catch on.

Zonakin is at least equal to AotC Yoda in sabers - AotC Yoda could defeat AotC Dooku - but not quickly and with some difficulty.

One on one - RotS Anakin was able to defeat a superior version of Dooku in likely the same amount of time.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

You do realize that Yoda had been a practicing Jedi for centuries by the time of AOTC, right? I find it very unlikely that his talents increased that dramatically within three more years (they didn't). I'm being silly, right?


Mhm.

If you mean by dramatically that he grew significantly more skilled - then yes, he did.

All the Jedi did.

Yoda had been a practicing Jedi for centuries and so he was still skilled - but using that logic, then you're implying TPM Yoda could still defeat RotS Sidious?

Perhaps you and a few others need to learn the concept of Skill Progression.

You can learn a lot and vital things in a few years, when you're pressed to.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

No, he is not. And even if he is, the fact that Sidious nearly overpowered him right after dropping his companions in seconds, would pretty much help my argument more than yours, don't you think? Think about it.

No - you think about it.

Windu dropped Sidious, when Dooku knew he couldn't.

Period. That tells you everything you need to know.

Think about it.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

The advantage is still in Yoda's favor.

Only in offensive Force-usage - which is not being used here.

Alright, now what about DARTH POWERLESS?

Originally posted by Rookwood
The light stings, Hmm?


I lol'd

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I lol'd

Already did that at your previous post.

So do I take that nervous laughter as a concession?

Originally posted by Rookwood
Indeed, I thought he was talking about some crap from the CGI series at first.

And that CGI series still belongs in a Nick Jr television line-up.

And what you think the CWMini series was intended mainly for an adult audience??

The CGI series has some very political episodes which adults will appreciate more, and some much darker episodes which are more family orientated episodes like the SW films themselves.

Either way, your opinion of the show doesn't matter one bit. Many people hate the Prequels. That doesn't change their level of canonicity.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Alright, now what about DARTH POWERLESS?

What? You really wana try me?? I fly like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Seriously I welcome more people joining these lifeless boards. It seems like nowadays it's either me debating Nephyts or me debating Sidious66. Sometimes Battlemaster comes in and starts a KOTOR era VS PT/OT era debate.

So new is welcomed.

But just wasn't expecting any new ones to be crazy people.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And what you think the CWMini series was intended mainly for an adult audience??
The CGI series has some very political episodes which adults will appreciate more, and some much darker episodes which are more family orientated episodes like the SW films themselves.
Either way, your opinion of the show doesn't matter one bit. Many people hate the Prequels. That doesn't change their level of canonicity.

That's good.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

What? You really wana try me?? I fly like a butterfly, sting like a bee.
Seriously I welcome more people joining these lifeless boards. But just wasn't expecting crazy people.

http://www.grimeforum.com/forum/images/smilies/2009/popcorn.gif
Yeah. I'm still waiting for your rebuttal.

Originally posted by Rookwood
That's good.

Great. So stop using the excuse "that so and so only happened in the stupid CGI kids show."

Because that's not an argument for anything except against Lucas's modern day creativity.




Originally posted by Rookwood

Yeah. I'm still waiting for your rebuttal.

I've already given it:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER




Neither a 900 year old Jedi Master nor a Sith Lord in his 80's are going to make any kind of significant improvement in 3 years.



Your also making an assumption that there's a significant difference between Sidious and Dooku in a Pure Fencing contest.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Great. So stop using the excuse "that so and so only happened in the stupid CGI kids show."
Because that's not an argument for anything except against Lucas's modern day creativity.
I've already given it:

My rebuttal post was longer than that; still waiting.

Otherwise I'll take it as a concession of your defeat.

http://i.imgur.com/EoqO9.gif

Fine, I'll waste my time with you:

Originally posted by Rookwood
Significantly better.




If by "significant" you mean allowing you to defeat your enemies/rivals, then yes, yes they did.

There's always room for improvement.


Nope Yoda has completely mastered every Lightsaber form. How could he possibly improve on that?

He also spent over 8 centuries connecting with the force. How exactly is he suddenly going to radically improve in the space of 3 years at a time when the dark side is clouding the light side of the force?? At a time when Mace Windu says to Yoda "I think it's time we informed the senate that our ability to use the force has diminshed.."(AOTC). Answer- He's not, and he didn't.

Count Dooku also spent 7 decades perfecting his pure fencing form (Makashi) to it's very Apex. How is he suddenly going to radically improve on that in 3 years??

Count Dooku even as a Jedi was said by Yoda to have already been "The Temple's strongest student.." and "Most learned in the ways of the Force.." (Dark Rendezvous)

So how was he going to improve on that?? Just one way, by increasing in power by turning to the dark side. And that was a good 10 years before AOTC. So no, he didn't improve either between AOTC and ROTS.


Originally posted by Rookwood
Dooku didn't feel he was skilled enough to challenge Sidious in combat. Period.




And how does Dooku's "feelings" prove that Sidious was "significantly" better than Dooku in a Pure fencing match?? Did we even see them have a Saber sparring match?? Have we ever even heard of them having a Saber sparring match?? Nope.

Besides Sidious is significantly more powerful than Dooku in the Force (obviously) as is Yoda. If on top of that Sidious is even a small fraction better than Dooku in pure fencing, then yes Dooku would understandably not want to challenge him.

Yoda does note that he was out of practise before his duel with Dooku but that that duel was all he needed to get him back on form.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda does note that he was out of practise before his duel with Dooku but that that duel was all he needed to get him back on form.

Ah yes he says something like that in Schism. Good point.

AOTC Yoda may have been a bit rusty in his old Saber skills.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Fine, I'll waste my time with you:
Yeah, I didn't realize maybe you knew you had f*cked up, and didn't want your face rubbed in it. whistling



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Nope Yoda has completely mastered every Lightsaber form. How could he possibly improve on that?
He also spent over 8 centuries connecting with the force. How exactly is he suddenly going to radically improve in the space of 3 years at a time when the dark side is clouding the light side of the force?? At a time when Mace Windu says to Yoda "I think it's time we informed the senate that our ability to use the force has diminshed.."(AOTC). Answer- He's not, and he didn't.


Wrong, and wrong.

One can study something for years and still learn new things, or they may simply get rusty and need to greatly focus their skills again.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Count Dooku also spent 7 decades perfecting his pure fencing form (Makashi) to it's very Apex. How is he suddenly going to radically improve on that in 3 years??

That would depend on how much his skills were forced to progress and/or sharpen during the course of the conflicts.

From what I noticed, because Dooku usually took the role of strategist, rather than leading charges, or going into missions behind enemy lines - his skill progression may have suffered compared to the others.

Also adding to the fact that comparatively to other Jedi, he didn't go through as many trials by fire, so to speak.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Count Dooku even as a Jedi was said by Yoda to have already been "The Temple's strongest student.." and "Most learned in the ways of the Force.." (Dark Rendezvous)
So how was he going to improve on that?? Just one way, by increasing in power by turning to the dark side. And that was a good 10 years before AOTC. So no, he didn't improve either between AOTC and ROTS.

As said before, no - he would have likely been trialed and tested the least - having his skills less focused or sharpened by the same experiences that improved many of the other Jedi.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And how does Dooku's "feelings" prove that Sidious was "significantly" better than Dooku in a Pure fencing match?? Did we even see them have a Saber sparring match?? Have we ever even heard of them having a Saber sparring match?? Nope.

A Jedi must trust in their feelings; instinct. Or haven't you learned that?

It doesn't matter if we've never seen them spar or not. Dooku noted a few times in other materials I don't have access to at the moment, that he knew he was no match for Sidious through the Force or otherwise.

He knew no matter the circumstance, he would simply come up short.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Besides Sidious is significantly more powerful than Dooku in the Force (obviously) as is Yoda. If on top of that Sidious is even a small fraction better than Dooku in pure fencing, then yes Dooku would understandably not want to challenge him.

Yes, and that's obviously the case.

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u387/spotty3/625d32fd.jpg

Gee, ya think? Geeze, you're an idiot.

Anyone who tries to make the argument that most of the main Jedi/Sith weren't significantly better by the end of the Clone Wars is seriously a Moron.


Am I supposed to believe that Mace Windu during The Phantom Menace can still defeat Darth Sidious?

Or that Luke Skywalker from A New Hope is just as skilled as he was in Return of the Jedi?

Characters grow more skilled - even if they've mastered their particular artforms - there is always more room to grow, limited only by an individual's brainpower or the constraints of their physical form.

In Yoda's case, and Dooku's as well, it's possible to become rusty over time - and then once you're plunged into a time of war, your skills and abilities focus or grow as needed.

Again, anyone not aware of this, or needing to be reminded of it like it's some sort of obscure fact, is a Moron.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda does note that he was out of practise before his duel with Dooku but that that duel was all he needed to get him back on form.


How much do they pay you to babysit some of these guys?

I hope they do - at least then it's worth your time and energy.

Yeah great rant except you never made the point that Yoda was rusty in AOTC.

Nope, you just made the point that even at his age he's constantly improving in Sabers and in the Force:

Originally posted by juggerman
Based on what? What shows Yoda getting more powerful?



Originally posted by Rookwood
Yoda goes from having trouble lifting a steel guider, to being able to manhandle a pair of CIS Landing-craft, for one thing.





You also implied TPM Yoda would not stand a chance against ROTS Sidious, simply because it was Yoda at an earlier point in time:


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66


You do realize that Yoda had been a practicing Jedi for centuries by the time of AOTC, right? I find it very unlikely that his talents increased that dramatically within three more years (they didn't). You're being silly, right?



Originally posted by Rookwood


but using that logic, then you're implying TPM Yoda could still defeat RotS Sidious?






Well guess what Einstein? If Yoda wasn't in form at the time of AOTC because his skills were rusty at the time, then he may well have been a better Saber duelist at the time of TPM.

Originally posted by Rookwood
How much do they pay you to babysit some of these guys?

I hope they do - at least then it's worth your time and energy.

I get payed in poontang.

Originally posted by Rookwood


A Jedi must trust in their feelings; instinct. Or haven't you learned that?

Yes in their instincts, not on their fear. Dooku wasn't a Jedi at the time.

And besides I've already pointed out Sidious WAS more powerful in the force. And would likely best Dooku in a fencing match as well. What I was arguing is that you have no proof that there was a significant difference between the two when it came to pure fencing.

Originally posted by Rookwood
It doesn't matter if we've never seen them spar or not. Dooku noted a few times in other materials I don't have access to at the moment, that he knew he was no match for Sidious through the Force or otherwise.

He knew no matter the circumstance, he would simply come up short.



And how exactly did he know that if they had never sparred. Did he just assume because Sidious force powers were greater??

If so it means nothing. Assumptions are not fact. Not by a long shot.

Oh and I challenge you to find me the quote that says Dooku knew he was absolutely no match for Sidious in a pure fencing contest.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah great rant except you never made the point that Yoda was rusty in AOTC.

Nope, you just made the point that even at his age he's constantly improving in Sabers and in the Force:


Yeah, and when did you think he was manhandling those CIS Landing craft, Dumbass?

Durr, dur, dur! During the Clone Wars - you know, that time you said Yoda never got better?
http://i.imgur.com/Q8uDX.gif




Originally posted by DARTH POWER

You also implied TPM Yoda would not stand a chance against ROTS Sidious, simply because it was Yoda at an earlier point in time:

Well guess what Einstein? If Yoda wasn't in form at the time of AOTC because his skills were rusty at the time, then he may well have been a better Saber duelist at the time of TPM.


Oh yeah, like that makes a lot of sense.

You should quit and spare yourself the agony of any further embarrassment.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes in their instincts, not on their fear. Dooku wasn't a Jedi at the time.

Even a Sith Lord is taught to pay attention to his fear.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And besides I've already pointed out Sidious WAS more powerful in the force. And would likely best Dooku in a fencing match as well. What I was arguing is that you have no proof that there was a significant difference between the two when it came to pure fencing.


Dooku's doubts are all I need. If he daren't challenge the Dark Lord in any arena - then I believe him.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And how exactly did he know that if they had never sparred. Did he just assume because Sidious force powers were greater??
If so it means nothing. Assumptions are not fact. Not by a long shot.

Well, that's the first thing you've been correct about all week - mere assumptions are not fact.

But, Count Dooku's own personal doubts, like those he had in Dark Rendezvous are good enough for me - our assumptions (unless weighted with common sense) don't carry merit - but Count Dooku's personal viewpoints, do.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Oh and I challenge you to find me the quote that says Dooku knew he was absolutely no match for Sidious in a pure fencing contest.

I've heard of and come across plenty of instances in books and on the net of Dooku fearing Sidious - but none that says Dooku thought he had any chance of defeating his Master.

I challenge you to find me a quote that says Dooku knew he could defeat Sidious, fencing - or otherwise.

If you could find such a quote, not only would it be impressive - you would reaffirm some semblance of intelligence in my eyes.

So, is there such a quote at all?

I'll give you some time to track down a quote, and then I'll return in a few days.

We'll see how well you do.

Good luck.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Yeah, and when did you think he was manhandling those CIS Landing craft, Dumbass?

Durr, dur, dur! During the Clone Wars - you know, that time you said Yoda never got better?



You already have your response:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER




He also spent over 8 centuries connecting with the force. How exactly is he suddenly going to radically improve in the space of 3 years at a time when the dark side is clouding the light side of the force?? At a time when Mace Windu says to Yoda "I think it's time we informed the senate that our ability to use the force has diminshed.."(AOTC). Answer- He's not, and he didn't.




Anyway so what you think he suddenly became like 10 times more powerful in the force during the CW??

You really can't be that dense?! It's not possible!

Oh yeah, like that makes a lot of sense.

Originally posted by Rookwood
You should quit and spare yourself the agony of any further embarrassment.

No rebuttal then obviously.

Originally posted by Rookwood

Dooku's doubts are all I need. If he daren't challenge the Dark Lord in any arena - then I believe him.

Neither Dooku's fears nor your beliefs in his fears count for anything.




Originally posted by Rookwood

Well, that's the first thing you've been correct about all week - mere assumptions are not fact.

But, Count Dooku's own personal doubts, like those he had in Dark Rendezvous are good enough for me - our assumptions (unless weighted with common sense) don't carry merit - but Count Dooku's personal viewpoints, do.


I've heard of and come across plenty of instances in books and on the net of Dooku fearing Sidious - but none that says Dooku thought he had any chance of defeating his Master.

I challenge you to find me a quote that says Dooku knew he could defeat Sidious, fencing - or otherwise.

If you could find such a quote, not only would it be impressive - you would reaffirm some semblance of intelligence in my eyes.

So, is there such a quote at all?

Urm what? Your the one claiming there's a huge difference between them in a Pure fencing contest. So your the one who needs to provide proof of that.

I have proof that he probably would be in Sidious's league in Sabers (or close to it) considering the fight he gave Yoda, and the battering Yoda gave Sidious (as per the script).

And since when do Dooku's own thoughts mean shit?? He thinks he's Yoda's equal and he thinks he has a shot at beating Yoda, who proved himself Sidious's superior.

But hey if we're going by thoughts I have a much more reliable one for you which applies directly to Saber fighting. It's Yoda's thoughts in Dark Rendezvous where he believes that on Neutral Ground Dooku and Mace Windu are equal in Saber fighting. You know the same Windu who beat Sidious.

So you believe Count Dooku's fears, whilst I'll believe Yoda's more rational thoughts. You believe in your own conclusions whilst I'll believe On-Screen showings and quotes relating directly to Saber combat.

Originally posted by Rookwood
I'll give you some time to track down a quote, and then I'll return in a few days.

We'll see how well you do.

Good luck.

As you can see I have plenty of proof to support my stance, whilst you have nothing but Dooku's "fears," your own opinions and speculation.

I hardly needed a few days to show that

The fail is STRONG in this thread. Saying Yoda was better from AOTC to ROTS is about as LULZ worthy opinion as I can think of. We don't need to move the goalposts to figure out the obvious. Yoda didn't want to kill Dooku.. but wanted to kill Sidious. Yoda still EVEN NOT GOING ALL OUT got the better of Dooku, and I see no reason NONE tha he wouldn't get the better of ANY version of Anakin.

My reaction to this entire thread:

http://ynaija.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/2926102748_Obama_laughing__xlarge.jpg


And for the record, my two cents are that:

A) There is not much difference between AOTC and ROTS Yoda

&

B) Yoda defeats Zonakin after a tough fight

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The fail is STRONG in this thread. Saying Yoda was better from AOTC to ROTS is about as LULZ worthy opinion as I can think of. We don't need to move the goalposts to figure out the obvious. Yoda didn't want to kill Dooku.. but wanted to kill Sidious. Yoda still EVEN NOT GOING ALL OUT got the better of Dooku,

Just because Yoda wasn't going for the kill against Dooku doesn't mean we should just write Dooku off as nothing next to him.

Mace didn't go for the kill against Sidious at first, and Anakin wasn't initially aiming to kill Dooku either.

So we should give Dooku credit where he deserves it. He did well against Yoda in the Saber fight but was ultimately not a match for his former master. But Yoda pretty much outclassed Sidious in Sabers anyway.

Yes there was little to no change in Yoda's power between AOTC and ROTS.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
and I see no reason NONE tha he wouldn't get the better of ANY version of Anakin.

Originally posted by -kV-


B) Yoda defeats Zonakin after a tough fight

Think people are underestimating Zone Anakin.

In the CW when Anakin unleashed his full power he was able to control The Son and Daughter, each of whom were said to be more powerful than any Jedi.

Add to that his complete trouncing of Count Dooku in Sabers, and I would give the Saber fight to Zone Anakin here. He may even have a chance at the all out Imho.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I get payed ...paid. I just realized I don't know which I would use naturally.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Add to that his complete trouncing of Count Dooku in Sabers, and I would give the Saber fight to Zone Anakin here. He may even have a chance at the all out Imho.

According to the expanded version of the duel descibed in the RotS novel, Dooku wasn't exactly trounced. He ran out of Force reserve by toying with Obi-Wan and Skywalker, not knowing that they were holding back quite a bit (ala Ali's "rope-a-dope" against Foreman). Dooku wasn't there to kill Anakin at first. Had he tried to kill Anakin at the onset of the duel, I don't doubt that he would have. The end of the duel between Dooku and Anakin clearly describes Dooku as having exhausted his Force reserves by prolonging the battle needlessly. It's really all about timing. Anakin unleashed his potential at the same time that Dooku exhausted his. I don't see Anakin / Zonakin defeating a Count Dooku (especially in a stomp) that is there to kill him form the get-go.

^ I don't know JT.. After seeing all their fights in the CW..

Last fight they had Anakin came very close to snapping Dooku's neck. And even after Dooku's full on TK + FL attack which seemed to give Dooku the fight, Anakin still wasn't Ko'd and arguably could have kept on fighting.

None of Dooku's solely TK attacks did much to Anakin at all, just push him back, and Skywalker took them all relatively unharmed.

As for the running out of Force reserves in the ROTS novel, didn't he just revitalize himself? I'm curious where it said he was losing because he couldn't revitalize himself again.

All I remember the problem being was Skywalker just being too powerful for him.

And any force reserves he did lose it was all from Anakin's power blows, and had very little to do with Obi-Wan, as we're told meeting Each Strike of Anakin's was costing him more energy than it took to dispose of Obi-Wan. That's a lot of Obi-Wan disposals.

But I do see your point. The way I see it, since Skywalker gets stronger as the fight goes on, then IF Dooku goes completely All Out with the Force right from the get-go, then and only then would he have a chance at defeating ROTS Jedi Anakin.

But it has to be before he gets in "The Zone" Imho. I mean when defending Each Strike from Anakin is harder work than disposing of Obi-Wan then that kind of shows just how powerful Zone Anakin was.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Yoda only stalemated Dooku in AotC.

Anakin defeated a superior version of Dooku.

Superior version? Wut? If anything age only decreased Dooku's power.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Just because Yoda wasn't going for the kill against Dooku doesn't mean we should just write Dooku off as nothing next to him.

Mace didn't go for the kill against Sidious at first, and Anakin wasn't initially aiming to kill Dooku either.

So we should give Dooku credit where he deserves it. He did well against Yoda in the Saber fight but was ultimately not a match for his former master. But Yoda pretty much outclassed Sidious in Sabers anyway.

Yes there was little to no change in Yoda's power between AOTC and ROTS.





Think people are underestimating Zone Anakin.

In the CW when Anakin unleashed his full power he was able to control The Son and Daughter, each of whom were said to be more powerful than any Jedi.

Add to that his complete trouncing of Count Dooku in Sabers, and I would give the Saber fight to Zone Anakin here. He may even have a chance at the all out Imho.

Dooku wasn't going for the kill against Anakin at first, and in fact, was toying with BOTH Anakin and Kenobi In the process of doing so... weakened him, and along with Anakin reaching his zone... Made for the Anakin win. Now how on God's green earth does that translate to Anakin beating Yoda? Yoda NOT trying to kill Dooku.. ALSO got the better of the fight. Is there any doubt that if yoda had been going all out he kills Dooku? I mean really is there? What are we left with then...

Anakin with help on two occasions struggled to beat Dooku.. and only did after he was in the zone and another got completely and utter tooled by dooku with help. He's one n one vs. Dooku. Just because A.I. scored 45 on jorday one game.. yet scored only 20 the game before.. doesn't mean we use his 45 point game as the norm.. we don't. Just because Jax plays out of their mind and beats the Patriots.. do we go.. they always beat the pats when in the zone? No, because that means they always are in the zone and exludes the variable of NE being in a zone. Then we have yoda who NOT TRYING to kill Dooku got the better of the fight. Then we have yoda fighting somebody superior to Dooku in EVERY WAY and getting the better of him... yet you wanna go Anakin beats Yoda? That leap in logic isn't one I'm willing to take. Yoda beats Anakin, and to be honest, even zone anakin wouldn't be too hard.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Just because Yoda wasn't going for the kill against Dooku doesn't mean we should just write Dooku off as nothing next to him.


Well Dooku is definitely not a nobody, but when we consider how much Yoda was holding back, it makes the feat a little less impressive on Dooku's part.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace didn't go for the kill against Sidious at first, and Anakin wasn't initially aiming to kill Dooku either.


But they were each much more willing to kill their opponents and held absolutely no attachments with them, whereas Yoda did have an attachment for Dooku and was not as willing to kill him.

Yoda possibly could have chopped Dooku's arms off and took him in without killing him, but since Yoda does not have the reach Anakin has, it would be more difficult for him.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But Yoda pretty much outclassed Sidious in Sabers anyway.


And seeing how Sidious blitzed three saber masters and nearly cut Windu (around Dooku's equal) down before Windu was fully tapped into vapaad, would put Yoda a bit ahead of Zonakin, IMO.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In the CW when Anakin unleashed his full power he was able to control The Son and Daughter, each of whom were said to be more powerful than any Jedi.


I need to watch that episode again, but I think Anakin's control of the son and daughter ("light side" "dark side" may have had more to do with Anakin bringing them under his will more than an actual TK feat. His position of being the chosen one would give him the ability to do so.

Besides, that's not the Anakin we are discussing here.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Add to that his complete trouncing of Count Dooku in Sabers, and I would give the Saber fight to Zone Anakin here. He may even have a chance at the all out Imho.


All out? I think you're overestimating Anakin. Yoda is faster and more acrobatic than Dooku (and Anakin), and would thus be able to keep a distance from Anakin in order to utilize force attacks.

As I said, Anakin's only advantage would be his strength, which would give Yoda a hard time.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Dooku wasn't going for the kill against Anakin at first, and in fact, was toying with BOTH Anakin and Kenobi In the process of doing so... weakened him, and along with Anakin reaching his zone... Made for the Anakin win. Now how on God's green earth does that translate to Anakin beating Yoda? Yoda NOT trying to kill Dooku.. ALSO got the better of the fight. Is there any doubt that if yoda had been going all out he kills Dooku? I mean really is there? What are we left with then...


Anakin wasn't "trying" to kill Dooku at first either. He's even less likely to be out for the kill when Obi-Wan is there with him.

It was Anakin who weakened Dooku. Obi-Wan had very little to do with Dooku's weakening.

But yes Dooku was getting weaker as Anakin kept getting stronger (according to the novel and the script).




Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Anakin with help on two occasions struggled to beat Dooku.. and only did after he was in the zone and another got completely and utter tooled by dooku with help. He's one n one vs. Dooku. Just because A.I. scored 45 on jorday one game.. yet scored only 20 the game before.. doesn't mean we use his 45 point game as the norm.. we don't. Just because Jax plays out of their mind and beats the Patriots.. do we go.. they always beat the pats when in the zone? No, because that means they always are in the zone and exludes the variable of NE being in a zone. Then we have yoda who NOT TRYING to kill Dooku got the better of the fight. Then we have yoda fighting somebody superior to Dooku in EVERY WAY and getting the better of him... yet you wanna go Anakin beats Yoda? That leap in logic isn't one I'm willing to take. Yoda beats Anakin, and to be honest, even zone anakin wouldn't be too hard.

I don't know what your talking about that Anakin struggled with help to beat Dooku twice?? You obviously don't watch Clone Wars where Anakin has been consistently almost stalemating Count Dooku.

And ROTS Anakin > CW Anakin.

Again Anakin never went for the kill until he already had Count Dooku at his mercy. He decided to "win" not kill. And the second he made that decision he won. He went for Dooku's hands, not his head.

And until you can quantify just how much better Sidious is than Dooku in a Pure fencing contest that point is irrelevant. We alreasy know as a fact that Zonakin is >>> Dooku in Sabers.

Heck even CW Anakin = Dooku in Sabers.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66


But they were each much more willing to kill their opponents and held absolutely no attachments with them, whereas Yoda did have an attachment for Dooku and was not as willing to kill him.


Good points, but it doesn't change the fact that the second Zonakin decided to go for Dooku's hands they were off. His blade moved with his will the second he "decided to win."

Also Obi-Wan had a very strong attachment to Anakin but still did what he had to to put him down.





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And seeing how Sidious blitzed three saber masters and nearly cut Windu (around Dooku's equal) down before Windu was fully tapped into vapaad, would put Yoda a bit ahead of Zonakin, IMO.


Not sure about that. Zonakin stopped Dooku the second he cleared his head and decided to. His blade moved with his will (as described in the ROTS novel).





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I need to watch that episode again, but I think Anakin's control of the son and daughter ("light side" "dark side" may have had more to do with Anakin bringing them under his will more than an actual TK feat. His position of being the chosen one would give him the ability to do so.

Besides, that's not the Anakin we are discussing here.

Obi-Wan tells Anakin to reach out through the force and he does. If you re-watch and see how he controls them, it's clearly a TK feat.

And I think we are discussing the same Anakin. You really don't think it was Zonakin who controlled the Son and Daughter??





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
All out? I think you're overestimating Anakin. Yoda is faster and more acrobatic than Dooku (and Anakin), and would thus be able to keep a distance from Anakin in order to utilize force attacks.

As I said, Anakin's only advantage would be his strength, which would give Yoda a hard time.


Thing is Zonakin's power wasn't coming from his physical strength. He was tapping into an unusual amount of his force reserves. It would be very odd to think all that extra power in the force was only effecting his strength and nothing else.

I have no doubt if Anakin did a Force push in that moment it would be mutiple times more powerful than his standard force push.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anakin wasn't "trying" to kill Dooku at first either. He's even less likely to be out for the kill when Obi-Wan is there with him.

It was Anakin who weakened Dooku. Obi-Wan had very little to do with Dooku's weakening.

But yes Dooku was getting weaker as Anakin kept getting stronger (according to the novel and the script).






I don't know what your talking about that Anakin struggled with help to beat Dooku twice?? You obviously don't watch Clone Wars where Anakin has been consistently almost stalemating Count Dooku.

And ROTS Anakin > CW Anakin.

Again Anakin never went for the kill until he already had Count Dooku at his mercy. He decided to "win" not kill. And the second he made that decision he won. He went for Dooku's hands, not his head.

And until you can quantify just how much better Sidious is than Dooku in a Pure fencing contest that point is irrelevant. We alreasy know as a fact that Zonakin is >>> Dooku in Sabers.

Heck even CW Anakin = Dooku in Sabers.

The novelization makes it clear that they were trying to slowly wear dooku down.. knowing they couldn't be aggressive and take him out when he was at full strength. Plus they were concealing their form to hide from dooku what they were trying to do to him. Point is, the novelization makes it clear both of them attacking him and having to fight both of them off did wear him down.. not just anakin. Anakin is still only 1 v 1 against dooku and both times he had help. That isn't a very good record. That is in stzrk cotrast to Yoda and how he performed against Dooku.

You say we don't have a measuring bar for Sidious compared to Dooku.. why would one need one? He's the master dooki the student. Do we need a measuring bar or variable to compare OBi to Yoda or Mace? No... we know where they stand and it's abundantly clear. So if Yoda does very good against Sids it stands to reason (and it was confirmed i nthe movie) he would do well against Dooku or Anakin.

I'm not sure why you keep on bring up the clone wars animated series into this. The movies are the highest form of canon and in that medium... We see Anakin needs help both times to wear down dooku.. and even so, is still only 1 v 1 against him. How we can then make a leap and logic .. or really defy logic and go.. Anakin can beat Yoda.. I just makes NO sense what so ever.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The novelization makes it clear that they were trying to slowly wear dooku down.. knowing they couldn't be aggressive and take him out when he was at full strength. Plus they were concealing their form to hide from dooku what they were trying to do to him. Point is, the novelization makes it clear both of them attacking him and having to fight both of them off did wear him down.. not just anakin. Anakin is still only 1 v 1 against dooku and both times he had help. That isn't a very good record. That is in stzrk cotrast to Yoda and how he performed against Dooku.

You say we don't have a measuring bar for Sidious compared to Dooku.. why would one need one? He's the master dooki the student. Do we need a measuring bar or variable to compare OBi to Yoda or Mace? No... we know where they stand and it's abundantly clear. So if Yoda does very good against Sids it stands to reason (and it was confirmed i nthe movie) he would do well against Dooku or Anakin.

I'm not sure why you keep on bring up the clone wars animated series into this. The movies are the highest form of canon and in that medium... We see Anakin needs help both times to wear down dooku.. and even so, is still only 1 v 1 against him. How we can then make a leap and logic .. or really defy logic and go.. Anakin can beat Yoda.. I just makes NO sense what so ever.

Would you believe the CW series is higher in canonicity than the ROTS Novel?? The movie and script are G-Canon but the novel just C-Canon. The series is T-Canon.

So the fights in the CW series are pretty important in terms of canon. And so far there have been 3 Anakin vs Dooku fights. No Obi-Wan involved. And in each fight Anakin looks better and better against Dooku, obviously because he's getting more powerful through the Clone Wars.

So bearing that in mind I just don't see the ROTS fight going much different if Obi-Wan wasn't there.

The AOTC fight is completely irrelevant because Anakin was a padawan.

The point about quantifying Dooku vs Sidious is a valid one. We have never seen them fight. They maybe close in Sabers but Sidious still much more powerful in an all out.

A different example- Dooku is obviously much more powerful than Obi-Wan in the force and in an all out, but many people think a pure Saber fight between them maybe close.

what is zonakin?

Originally posted by mnat801
what is zonakin?

Anakin in the "zone".

According to the ROTS novel Anakin had a moment of "Pristine Clarity". In that moment he defeated Count Dooku the second he "decided" to.

So that's why we say Anakin was "In the Zone.."

Anyway he was already battering Dooku before his moment of clarity.

So imagine someone with the Power to Batter Count frigging Dooku, suddenly has an "In the Zone" moment. And the conclusion is he must have been pretty frigging Uber in that state.

Yoda crushes him.. and it really wouldn't be that difficult

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Yoda crushes him.. and it really wouldn't be that difficult

So someone who can kick the crud out of Count Dooku is just gna be easy pickings for Yoda? Really?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So someone who can kick the crud out of Count Dooku is just gna be easy pickings for Yoda? Really? Well you could argue that dooku has passed his best, and is getting quite old and tired.

Hmm idk about this "in the zone" status, because im pretty sure he had his mind set on killing kenobi, and still failed.

Its funny Kenobi > anakin > dooku > kenobi

Originally posted by -kV-
My reaction to this entire thread:

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u387/spotty3/Picdump-Ritemail-037_zpsc1fc0b40.jpg

And for the record, my two cents are that:

A) There is not much difference between AOTC and ROTS Yoda

&

B) Yoda defeats Zonakin after a tough fight

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u387/spotty3/Worthlesstwocents_zps127e6679.jpg

Then your plastic two pennies are worthless.

And you're as much of a moron as DP is.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You already have your response:


Spending the majority of 8 centuries on his ass, won't help him improve much - on the other hand, sharpening skills gathered during those stagnant 8 centuries, during the first "Full scale galactic war fought in 1,000 years" as per Palpatine, would accordingly give him a significant increase, as it did the others.





Originally posted by DARTH POWER

No rebuttal then obviously.


I was just feeling sorry for you.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Urm what?



"Urm" exactly. Couldn't find it, hmm? Not very impressive.




Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Your the one claiming there's a huge difference between them in a Pure fencing contest.

I have proof that he probably would be in Sidious's league in Sabers (or close to it) considering the fight he gave Yoda, and the battering Yoda gave Sidious (as per the script).


Yeah - except close doesn't cut it - if Dooku thought he could defeat Sidious in a lightsaber duel, the same way Mace did, guess what?

He would have fought Sidious to kill him and crush the Sith.

But, he didn't. Why?

Because he knew he couldn't.




Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And since when do Dooku's own thoughts mean shit?? He thinks he's Yoda's equal and he thinks he has a shot at beating Yoda,
- on Vjun a world steeped in the Dark Side of the Force.

Gee, hmm, wonder why he lured him to that particular planet in the first place?

If Sidious and Dooku dueled on Vjun, in contrast, then Sidious would also get amped by the Dark Side, and Dooku would be the one at a disadvantage.





Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Neither Dooku's fears nor your beliefs in his fears count for anything.
But hey if we're going by thoughts I have a much more reliable one for you which applies directly to Saber fighting. It's Yoda's thoughts in Dark Rendezvous where he believes that on Neutral Ground Dooku and Mace Windu are equal in Saber fighting. You know the same Windu who beat Sidious.

"The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground"
- Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

Yoda is capable of misjudging things.

"Failed have I."

Yoda exclaimed this after failing to realize the broad scheme of things and not just failing to kill Sidious.

Even Sidious pointed out how Yoda had been blinded by his own arrogance - before hitting with a blast (that suprised Yoda) that launched him into a wall and knocked him out cold.

Yoda considers Prime Mace to be below Dooku - the same Dooku who was killed by Zonakin - and the same Mace who was able to defeat Sidious.

Going by Yoda's logic, then Anakin should be able to defeat Sidious, too.

Except Yoda's own judgements (rational, as you would put it) are flawed and not perfect.

Whereas Dooku's fears - turned out to be right on the money.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

So you believe Count Dooku's fears, whilst I'll believe Yoda's more rational thoughts. You believe in your own conclusions whilst I'll believe On-Screen showings and quotes relating directly to Saber combat.

Re-read the previous post, and keep reading until the concept sinks in.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

As you can see I have plenty of proof to support my stance, whilst you have nothing but Dooku's "fears," your own opinions and speculation.I hardly needed a few days to show that


http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u387/spotty3/DarthPowerless_zpsd63756b2.jpg

Maybe it is Dave.

Originally posted by Rookwood


Yeah - except close doesn't cut it - if Dooku thought he could defeat Sidious in a lightsaber duel, the same way Mace did, guess what? He would have fought Sidious to kill him and crush the Sith.

But, he didn't. Why?

Because he knew he couldn't.

Unless he's actually sparred Sparred Sidious his thoughts really don't mean anything, because they're just made up thoughts which have been manipulated by Sidious.


Originally posted by Rookwood
Yoda is capable of misjudging things.

"Failed have I."

Yoda exclaimed this after failing to realize the broad scheme of things and not just failing to kill Sidious.

Even Sidious pointed out how Yoda had been blinded by his own arrogance - before hitting with a blast (that suprised Yoda) that launched him into a wall and knocked him out cold.


Except Yoda's own judgements (rational, as you would put it) are flawed and not perfect.

Whereas Dooku's fears - turned out to be right on the money.




LOL So your argument is that Yoda's opinion of sword fighting abilities in people he's worked with, taught, watched for years and fought/sparred with is Fallible....

But Dooku's fears are fact???!!

Hahaha Your argument sucks so bad!

I actually do think Sidious would beat Dooku in Sabers but your argument to prove it just sucks!

And the whole premise on which you've started this debate is flawed. You claim Dooku and Yoda were equal in AOTC. FALSE! The novel and script both make it clear Yoda was beating Dooku in Sabers. That's the reason Dooku was the one who ran.


Originally posted by Rookwood
Yoda considers Prime Mace to be below Dooku - the same Dooku who was killed by Zonakin - and the same Mace who was able to defeat Sidious. Going by Yoda's logic, then Anakin should be able to defeat Sidious, too.

Yoda considers Dooku and Mace may be on par with each other.

That doesn't contradict Mace beating Sidious, as Mace's Vapaad is the perfect form to battle Sidious.

Also how do you know ROTS Anakin couldn't match or beat Sidious in Sabers?? And especially with Zonakin chances are he probably would beat Sidious in a Saber match.

Originally posted by Rookwood
"The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground"
- Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

Yoda is capable of misjudging things.

Well this is o8vious 8ecause Yoda then goes on to force Dooku to flee on a planet that gives him an advantage. So that's o8vious 8ullshit.

Whoever argues that rots anakins wins against aotc yoda should understand that obi wan was able to hold his own against anakin, meaning kenobi should be able to hold his own against yoda. therefore yoda would win against anakin imo.

A>B>C logic rarely works.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
A>B>C logic rarely works. I know. But its possible.

Originally posted by mnat801
what is zonakin?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
According to the ROTS novel Anakin had a moment of "Pristine Clarity". In that moment he defeated Count Dooku the second he "decided" to.

So that's why we say Anakin was "In the Zone.."

Originally posted by mnat801
Hmm idk about this "in the zone" status, because im pretty sure he had his mind set on killing kenobi, and still failed.

Power gives you an answer, but i suspect, that You still don't get it. So:

His head has been filled with the smoke from his smotheredheart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens hismind. On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine,that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but herenow, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinitesterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terrorand the rage areout there, in the fight instead of in his head, andAnakin's mind is clear as
a crystal bell.
In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.
Decide.

And then, he decides, to cut off Dooku's hands.

When he fights Obi-Wan, his mind was far from pristine clarity, it was more like clouded, which already made him a mindless machine of slaughter.

That's the difference.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anyway he was already battering Dooku before his moment of clarity.

And here i must disagree with you Power. We all know, that in the book, at the end of the fight, Dooku was in terrible condition. Also, before that, Dooku was unable to fight both, Anakin and Obi-Wan, co he use... um... something like... hit and run strategy? Still it's noncanon, coz we know - from the movie - that he was able to fight them both, he successfully blocks their sabers in cross (I've hope that You can understand me here, still my english is quite poor). In fact in cross, he pushed their swords, and was able to kick Skywalker, and use TK on Kenobi.
After that, he was still able to easily blocks Anakin's strikes. Then he do the same, like Vader did in ROTJ - he provokes Anakin.
It wasn't Dun Moch (not at all), he wants Anakin angry.

I give You some quotes:

I sense great fear in you. You are consumed by it.Hero With No Fear, indeed. You're afraud, Skywalker. You arenothing but a posturing child. - from book

Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin,use it!" he barked in Palpatine's voice. "Call upon your fury.
Focus it, and he cannot stand against you.Rage is your weapon. Strike now!Strike! Killhim - book

I sense great fear in you, Skywalker. You have hate. You have anger. But you don't use them. - movie.

Ok, Dooku's words in the movie, looks more similar to Palpatine's. It sounds like: you haven't chance, Only Your Hatred Can Destroy Me

And then, and olny then, Anakin is able to find any advantage over Dooku. And this advantage let him won. It's not because Dooku is tired - this fight was short, he probably wasn't to tired. (movie version was short, I mean)

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yoda considers Dooku and Mace may be on par with each other.

With a swords, not in all-out. He said, that Dooku is the best, because he is the strongest, wisest, and most learned in the ways of the force.

Novels do exaggerate though, and this thread is about ROTS anakin, not zonakin.

The novelization is just as canon as the film.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The novelization is just as canon as the film.

It is, until it interfere with film. If i ask, who was the first Palpatine victim: Kolar or Tinn? It's obvious, that Kolar.

Originally posted by mnat801
Novels do exaggerate though, and this thread is about ROTS anakin, not zonakin.

Anakin from ROTS, was zoanakin, when he confronts Cound Dooku. So it may be considering as the same.

Originally posted by Zett
Anakin from ROTS, was zoanakin, when he confronts Cound Dooku. So it may be considering as the same. Anakin cant be in the zone 24/7 though. you said it yourself, ROTS anakin wasnt in the zone against kenobi. therefore we cannot assume that is zonekin

Originally posted by mnat801
Anakin cant be in the zone 24/7 though. you said it yourself, ROTS anakin wasnt in the zone against kenobi. therefore we cannot assume that is zonekin

Yeah, I agree here. It's that why I said may. But on the other hand, when I see ROTS Anakin, I suspect, that author is about Anakin's strongest shape (zoanakin i mean).

Originally posted by Zett
Yeah, I agree here. It's that why I said may. But on the other hand, when I see ROTS Anakin, I suspect, that author is about Anakin's strongest shape (zoanakin i mean). yeah ok.

Originally posted by Zett



And here i must disagree with you Power. We all know, that in the book, at the end of the fight, Dooku was in terrible condition. Also, before that, Dooku was unable to fight both, Anakin and Obi-Wan, co he use... um... something like... hit and run strategy? Still it's noncanon, coz we know - from the movie - that he was able to fight them both, he successfully blocks their sabers in cross (I've hope that You can understand me here, still my english is quite poor). In fact in cross, he pushed their swords, and was able to kick Skywalker, and use TK on Kenobi.
After that, he was still able to easily blocks Anakin's strikes. Then he do the same, like Vader did in ROTJ - he provokes Anakin.
It wasn't Dun Moch (not at all), he wants Anakin angry.


I say this because if you look at their fights in the CW Skywalker is consistently stalemating Count Dooku on his own. In fact in the last episode he came very close to overpowering him.

Then consider Anakin was getting more powerful throughout the CW and by ROTS I just don't see Anakin losing to Count Dooku. In fact I only see Dooku losing. Anakin was simply too powerful for him by this point.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I say this because if you look at their fights in the CW Skywalker is consistently stalemating Count Dooku on his own. In fact in the last episode he came very close to overpowering him.

Then consider Anakin was getting more powerful throughout the CW and by ROTS I just don't see Anakin losing to Count Dooku. In fact I only see Dooku losing. Anakin was simply too powerful for him by this point.

No he didn't Dooku was being cocky as usual and was engaging in saber locks one handed. No surprise he got put on his ass for that when he's going against a Djem So master.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No he didn't Dooku was being cocky as usual and was engaging in saber locks one handed. No surprise he got put on his ass for that when he's going against a Djem So master.

It's not cockiness. It's his style. He was fending off his Saber attacks with one hand, and constantly hitting him with the Force with his free hand.

They've fought plenty of times now, and they're consistently stalemating even when Dooku has 2 hands on his Saber.

I say this because if you look at their fights in the CW Skywalker is consistently stalemating Count Dooku on his own. In fact in the last episode he came very close to overpowering him.

It's good argument (like many others, when i discus with You). But this time, i must disagree. It's my opinion about this situation:

All this situation is arrangement by Darth Sidious. He probably want himself as a prisoner of Dooku (many of CIS leaders are prisoners now, and he probably want switch himself for them). He also want both - Anakin and Dooku - alive. It's to early for Dooku's death. So i assume, that Dooku holding himself before killing Anakin. But Anakin's using a lot of anger, and thanks that, he is able to find a little advantage over Count in a saber combat (Palpatine is smiling, because he sees, how powerful Anakin has become). After all, Dooku is able to find advantage over Anakin, when he mixed his force powers and saber skills. And at the end Kenobi ruined their plan.

In ROTS, Anakin was holding himself before using his anger, because Obi-Wan was there. And Dooku probably knows that. It looks like, Dooku has some advantage over them both. He may just assumed, that Anakin with his anger and fury, can gives him a fight similar to the previous - from TCW i mean (sry for that - i had a problem with this sentence). Then, even when Anakinn will be able to find advantage in sabers, Dooku will be able to overcome him with the force. But Anakin became much stronger (or he became zoanakin ;p ), so Dooku wasn't.

Then consider Anakin was getting more powerful throughout the CW and by ROTS I just don't see Anakin losing to Count Dooku. In fact I only see Dooku losing. Anakin was simply too powerful for him by this point.

Hard to say. I mean, if TCW directors and Lucas want keep rest of canon allright, then this episode is about <6 months before ROTS. I assume that about 3-4. So it's really close to ROTS.

Originally posted by Zett


It's good argument (like many others, when i discus with You). But this time, i must disagree. It's my opinion about this situation:

All this situation is arrangement by Darth Sidious. He probably want himself as a prisoner of Dooku (many of CIS leaders are prisoners now, and he probably want switch himself for them). He also want both - Anakin and Dooku - alive. It's to early for Dooku's death. So i assume, that Dooku holding himself before killing Anakin. But Anakin's using a lot of anger, and thanks that, he is able to find a little advantage over Count in a saber combat (Palpatine is smiling, because he sees, how powerful Anakin has become). After all, Dooku is able to find advantage over Anakin, when he mixed his force powers and saber skills. And at the end Kenobi ruined their plan.

Dave Filoni said he doesn't think Palpatine would stop Dooku killing Anakin. Because that would just prove Anakin wasn't strong enough to be his apprentice.

Same reason why in the CWmini cartoon he gave Ventress orders to kill Skywalker.

Originally posted by Zett
In ROTS, Anakin was holding himself before using his anger, because Obi-Wan was there. And Dooku probably knows that. It looks like, Dooku has some advantage over them both. He may just assumed, that Anakin with his anger and fury, can gives him a fight similar to the previous - from TCW i mean (sry for that - i had a problem with this sentence). Then, even when Anakinn will be able to find advantage in sabers, Dooku will be able to overcome him with the force. But Anakin became much stronger (or he became zoanakin ;p ), so Dooku wasn't.

I'm not saying it's necessarily impossible for Dooku to take him. But he would have to do it very early in the fight Imo. Because according to the novel and the script Skywalker gets stronger as the fight progresses.

And I really doubt he could take him out with the Force once Anakin gets into the fight, considering in their CW fights all his Force attacks do is push him back. They don't seem to permanently dispose of him at all. The closest he came was with a full on Lightning and TK combo. And even though that put him down for a bit, even that didn't knock him unconscious!

And he can't really rely on that because he can catch his Lightning with his Lightsaber.

I'm almost certain at this point that ROTS Anakin is just more powerful than Count Dooku.



Originally posted by Zett
Hard to say. I mean, if TCW directors and Lucas want keep rest of canon allright, then this episode is about <6 months before ROTS. I assume that about 3-4. So it's really close to ROTS.

Nah they will have to revamp the timeline eventually. That last fight was mid-late season 4. There will be at least 6 seasons of the show.

And besides didn't Anakin claim in ROTS that he'd become even more powerful since their last encounter??

Dave Filoni said(...)

I hate Filoni, and his word means nothing to me. I'm sorry, I hate this guy. Hm.. ok, just look: As I remeber, N. Gillard said, that Cin Drallig was on Kenobi's level. And we all know, that's bullshit.

In ROTS novel, when Dooku talking with Sidious, Sidious asking why Dooku wasn't spared Anakin's arm (smth like that?)... As I remeber, Dooku switch off his lightsaber, after fight with Anakin.
Dooku was never going to kill Anakin, except the last stage of their final fight. This fight on Invisible Hand was Anakin's final test, but Dooku didn't know that at all.

And once again, but short this time:

I still think, that:
- Count holding himself before killing Anakin (CW fight, I mean)
- A difference between Anakin in fury, and normal Anakin was huge (it's pretty obvious, when we look at his duels with Asajj - on Yavin, or Courscant).
- I think, that his skill wasn't good enough to defeat Count without anger (according to film, not a book)
- Anakin was using anger in a fight on Naboo, so he was able to take advantage
- Anakin wasn't using anger, until Dooku provoked him (rots)
- Finally, with anger or zone, Anakin was able to destroy Dooku

Originally posted by Zett
Dave Filoni said(...)

I hate Filoni, and his word means nothing to me. I'm sorry, I hate this guy. Hm.. ok, just look: As I remeber, N. Gillard said, that Cin Drallig was on Kenobi's level. And we all know, that's bullshit.

In ROTS novel, when Dooku talking with Sidious, Sidious asking why Dooku wasn't spared Anakin's arm (smth like that?)... As I remeber, Dooku switch off his lightsaber, after fight with Anakin.
Dooku was never going to kill Anakin, except the last stage of their final fight. This fight on Invisible Hand was Anakin's final test, but Dooku didn't know that at all.

And once again, but short this time:

I still think, that:
- Count holding himself before killing Anakin (CW fight, I mean)
- A difference between Anakin in fury, and normal Anakin was huge (it's pretty obvious, when we look at his duels with Asajj - on Yavin, or Courscant).
- I think, that his skill wasn't good enough to defeat Count without anger (according to film, not a book)
- Anakin was using anger in a fight on Naboo, so he was able to take advantage
- Anakin wasn't using anger, until Dooku provoked him (rots)
- Finally, with anger or zone, Anakin was able to destroy Dooku

All I'll say about the killing thing is that in the ROTS novel Dooku puts aside his plan Not to kill Anakin when he realizes he might lose the fight.

And also do you think Anakin was ever going for the kill against Dooku? Even when he defeated him, he simply chopped off his arms and wasn't going to kill him until Palpatine goaded him to.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
All I'll say about the killing thing is that in the ROTS novel Dooku puts aside his plan Not to kill Anakin when he realizes he might lose the fight.


Yeah, it's also my opinion. But difference between ours opinions, is when actually Dooku's decides to kill Anakin.
In my opinon, short (seconds i mean) after Dooku provoked Anakin, he realized, that Anakin's much stronger then him. So he decide to kill him, but it was far too late. Anakin wasn't defeated him, he just destroyed him.


And also do you think Anakin was ever going for the kill against Dooku? Even when he defeated him, he simply chopped off his arms and wasn't going to kill him until Palpatine goaded him to.

Yeah, he was. Until he realized, that he is able to disarms him. Then, he decided to cut off Dooku's hands. After that, some part of him wants Dooku's death, while the other part don't want to kill him (I assume, it was 50/50 if not Palpatine).

Originally posted by Zett
Yeah, it's also my opinion. But difference between ours opinions, is when actually Dooku's decides to kill Anakin.
In my opinon, short (seconds i mean) after Dooku provoked Anakin, he realized, that Anakin's much stronger then him. So he decide to kill him, but it was far too late. Anakin wasn't defeated him, he just destroyed him.

But it wouldn't have been too late if he was the more powerful combatant.




Originally posted by Zett
Yeah, he was. Until he realized, that he is able to disarms him. Then, he decided to cut off Dooku's hands. After that, some part of him wants Dooku's death, while the other part don't want to kill him (I assume, it was 50/50 if not Palpatine).

You will be hard pressed to prove Anakin was always trying to "kill" Dooku.

Oh, I can't edit my post ; /

"Dooku! Anakin snarled through clenched teeth. "I will kill you!" - LOE.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No, no there is not try. Do or do not.

Hahaha, I like You even more for that But...

You can't win Darth.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I DO prove you wrong.

No, You don't!

This quote, from page 79 - Anakin was holding himself back, not before killing Dooku, but before letting himself to use an anger.
And I agree with that.

Anyway, I said "I'll try", coz - as I posted - a few arguments from the book, aren't an arguments for me.
In my opinion, a huge part of this fight is opposite to the film. For me, this fight was short, Dooku fights thme both at once (if you understand what I mean), and he wants Anakin angry (not like in the book). So, quotes from page 75, and 78, means nothing to me.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqLj5wgkmRU
1.20... If Dooku's not going to kill here....

Hehehe see what I did there

This one is great

Dooku always hated Anakin, I think. Beside that, there was no Sidious. So he can tell his master, that it was a misadventure(?).

Anyway, I don't change my mind - just as You. We see canon with diffrent ways, so it's a pointless, right?

I can only hope, that I've changed your mind about Anakin (he really was going to kill Dooku almost all the time).

Ah one more thing:
Dooku catched Anakin on Naboo, and defeat him in Queen's Palace on Zygerria (Yeah, Anakin it wasn't even a fight, but still, Anakin was on his mercy - as I remeber).

Originally posted by Zett






This quote, from page 79 - Anakin was holding himself back, not before killing Dooku, but before letting himself to use an anger.
And I agree with that.

Point was it's only in the novel we get this idea that Sidious told Dooku not to kill Anakin. But it's also the novel that points out Anakin was still holding back on his power even after Dooku has decided to go for the kill.





Originally posted by Zett
This one is great

Dooku always hated Anakin, I think. Beside that, there was no Sidious. So he can tell his master, that it was a misadventure(?).



Right so that fight shows them fighting each other with no reason for either one to hold back. In fact we flat out saw Dooku going for the kill. And yet even then near the beginning of the CW he failed to kill Anakin. And Anakin was stalemating him in Sabers in that fight and managed to tank Dooku's force attacks (just barely).

But from then on Anakin only got more and more powerful through the CW. Which is why I really don't see the ROTS Anakin vs Dooku fight ending any other way, whether or not Sidious was there and whether or not Obi-Wan was there.

This is a non fight... Yoda beats anakin.. and it wouldn't beat very hard. He's superior in virtually every way.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is a non fight... Yoda beats anakin.. and it wouldn't beat very hard. He's superior in virtually every way. I can't even begin to point out all the flaws with this.

Originally posted by NTJack0
I can't even begin to point out all the flaws with this.

You can't because there are none.

Originally posted by NTJack0
I can't even begin to point out all the flaws with this.

Why don't you try to.. It would amuse me

Interesting thread.
I love Stars Wars and collect the series.
I think it would be a tough fight,but I think in the end Yoda does have a speed and agility feat over Anakin to take him down.

Yoda wins in a tough fight.

Originally posted by vader11
Yoda wins in a tough fight.

I take it, it's been a while since you watched the movies.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Unless he's actually sparred Sparred Sidious his thoughts really don't mean anything, because they're just made up thoughts which have been manipulated by Sidious.


They're only thoughts?

So you're saying Dooku could beat Sidious in a lightsaber duel and he knew it?

I'd like to see a quote of that, if it exists.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

LOL So your argument is that Yoda's opinion of sword fighting abilities in people he's worked with, taught, watched for years and fought/sparred with is Fallible....
Originally posted by Rookwood
Yoda considers Prime Mace to be below Dooku - the same Dooku who was killed by Zonakin - and the same Mace who was able to defeat Sidious.

Going by Yoda's logic, then Anakin should be able to defeat Sidious, too.

Mhm. I'd say it's Fallible - unless Anakin is capable of defeating Sidious, too.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

But Dooku's fears are fact???!!

* Fear of Anakin killing/replacing him. Check

* Fear of Sidious being able to defeat Yoda Check

* Fear of the Sith taking over the Republic Check


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Hahaha Youg argument suck so bad!

I actually do think Sidious would beat Dooku in Sabers but your argument to prove it jusb sucs!

Keep in mind, you are mentally-slow. Just reminding.

That's why I explain my argument mostly in bite-sized pieces - so even you can grasp them without too much trouble, as long as you re-read slowly.

Don't worry, I'm trying to dumb it down for you.

I'll explain it simply - so you're not confused.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And the whole premise on which you've started this debate is flawed. You claim Dooku and Yoda were equal in AOTC. FALSP! The novel and script both make it clear Yoda was beating Dooku in Sabers. That's the reason Dooku was the one who ran.

Hmm? I never said they were equal. Go back and read carefully - I said that Yoda could not pacify Dooku in the duel easily, in any kind of way.

The Republic was at stake; war loomed on the horizon that could claim billions of innocent lives, and Yoda was face to face with (at the time) the main cog and General of that driving force.
If Yoda (as Mace pointed out of himself in Shatterpoint) could have killed or at least injured Dooku and captured him, the war could have been prevented.
But Dooku was too powerful and skilled for Yoda to even pacify through the simple act of a simple cut to the leg, that would have been incapacitating - but non-life threatening, and would not have even caused amputation.


http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u387/spotty3/Yodaexcuses_zpsf4e48951.jpg

Logic and common sense, dictates he couldn't defeat him within those 37 seconds they fought.

Yoda could not pacify the Count if he wanted to and so Dooku fought him off and escaped to avoid the reinforcements that were on their way.

It would take a very difficult fight for (Rusty) Yoda at that time, to defeat Count Dooku either through pacification (severing of a limb/TK) or death.

The lives of countless innocent women, children and babies, stacked against this decision, are partially testament to this fact.

Whereas for Zonakin, against a more experienced Dooku, it was also a difficult fight - with Anakin struggling not to give in to the Dark side and kill Dooku (in the middle of the fight) but he still managed to out-technique Dooku and pacify him whereas an earlier version of Yoda could not.


Anakin was later able to do what an earlier version of Yoda was not capable of - and to put things in perspective - and you can actually go watch the fights and see this for yourself - Both of their fights with Dooku lasted 37 seconds.


BvnwLLXHabg
4:00 to 4:37

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1:55 to 2:32


(AotC) Yoda fought Dooku for 37 seconds - and could not even lay a simple cut on him, that would (harmlessly) incapacitate him like it did with Obi-wan.


When Anakin had his 37 second duel with Dooku, he managed to avoid directly killing the Count at first, and instead simply out-techniqued him and surgically removed his hands.

So, they both have a 1-on-1 duel with the Count - all Yoda needs to do, is put a simple cut on Dooku's leg ala Dooku-Kenobi - and billions of lives are literally spared.

Yoda can't do it in that amount of time. Reinforcements of Clones are on the way, and Dooku makes his departure.


Anakin later has his 1-on-1 exclusive duel with the Count - with literally the same amount of time it took Yoda to be fended off - Anakin out-techniques the Count.

So literally, with all the mathematical-trimmings - who is better? Anakin.

And it is that later version of Anakin, which could handle the earlier version of Yoda, in a lightsaber duel.

Saavy?



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yoda considers Dooku and Mace may be on par with each other.

That doesn't contradict Mace beating Sidious, as Mace's Vapaad is the perfect form to battle Sidious.

Yes, because Sidious uses the Dark side.

How can Mace not be above Dooku instead of on par, when Dooku uses the Dark side as well?

Yoda's judgement there, is clearly flawed.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Also how do you know ROTS Anakin couldn't match or beat Sidious in Sabers?? And especially with Zonakin chances are he probably would beat Sidious in a Saber match.

Hmm - you make an interesting argument.

If Zonakin can beat Sidious in lightsabers, then I'm sure he can beat an earlier, rusty version of Yoda in lightsabers, too.

Especially when in the same 37 seconds, it takes Yoda to stalemate with Dooku - Anakin defeats him via simple incapacitation.

Anakin wins.

Rook, your post is overlooking that Dooku ran from Yoda.

Yoda clearly had the upper hand in the fight, and if given more time, likely would have been able to defeat Dooku. Having 37 seconds to fight a guy who was the equal of Mace (Before Vapaad) is not that long. That would take at least 2 minutes.

Originally posted by Pwned
Rook, your post is overlooking that Dooku ran from Yoda and the LAAT Gunship full of Clones on the way.


Fixed.

And, your post is overlooking something.

Originally posted by Pwned
Yoda clearly had the upper hand in the fight, and if given more time, likely would have been able to defeat Dooku.

Having 37 seconds to fight a guy who was the equal of Mace (Before Vapaad) is not that long. That would take at least 2 minutes.
Not for Zonakin - and that's precisely the point.

RookWood - Don't forget the novel's description of the fight and the fact that Dooku had run out of Force reserves due to (foolishly) toying with Anakin and Obi-Wan. This occurred before the duo dropped their ruse and dueled with their mastered forms (of which Dooku was unaware of). The novel describes all of this very clearly. One cannot go on the movies alone in this forum as EU material, novels, scripts, etc... play into the equations.

I'd give Zonakin the slight edge in a pure lightsaber duel. But Yoda might as well take it. This is very close.

Zonakin wins. But it is very close.

"Zonakin" is not winning. The only advantage he has over Yoda is physical strength, and it's not enough to affect Yoda as much as it did Dooku, since Yoda is physically stronger than Dooku. Also, Unlike Dooku, Yoda is faster than Anakin, and is much more acrobatic. His small size is not something Anakin is use to dealing with, whereas Yoda is use to fighting bigger opponents, so the size difference would be an advantage in Yoda's favor. Not to mention Yoda is the most skilled lightsaber duelist of his time, and has managed to outduel (or disarm according to the ROTS script) someone who is superior and considerably faster than Anakin. Yoda is Anakin's superior in every way except physical strength.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
"Zonakin" is not winning. The only advantage he has over Yoda is physical strength, and it's not enough to affect Yoda as much as it did Dooku, since Yoda is physically stronger than Dooku. Also, Unlike Dooku, Yoda is faster than Anakin, and is much more acrobatic. His small size is not something Anakin is use to dealing with, whereas Yoda is use to fighting bigger opponents, so the size difference would be an advantage in Yoda's favor. Not to mention Yoda is the most skilled lightsaber duelist of his time, and has managed to outduel (or disarm according to the ROTS script) someone who is superior and considerably faster than Anakin. Yoda is Anakin's superior in every way except physical strength.

Originally posted by Rookwood
They're only thoughts?

So you're saying Dooku could beat Sidious in a lightsaber duel and he knew it?

I'd like to see a quote of that, if it exists.





Mhm. I'd say it's Fallible - unless Anakin is capable of defeating Sidious, too.





* Fear of Anakin killing/replacing him. Check

* Fear of Sidious being able to defeat Yoda Check

* Fear of the Sith taking over the Republic Check




Keep in mind, you are mentally-slow. Just reminding.

That's why I explain my argument mostly in bite-sized pieces - so even you can grasp them without too much trouble, as long as you re-read slowly.

Don't worry, I'm trying to dumb it down for you.

I'll explain it simply - so you're not confused.





Hmm? I never said they were equal. Go back and read carefully - I said that Yoda could not pacify Dooku in the duel easily, in any kind of way.

The Republic was at stake; war loomed on the horizon that could claim billions of innocent lives, and Yoda was face to face with (at the time) the main cog and General of that driving force.
If Yoda (as Mace pointed out of himself in Shatterpoint) could have killed or at least injured Dooku and captured him, the war could have been prevented.
But Dooku was too powerful and skilled for Yoda to even pacify through the simple act of a simple cut to the leg, that would have been incapacitating - but non-life threatening, and would not have even caused amputation.


http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u387/spotty3/Yodaexcuses_zpsf4e48951.jpg

Logic and common sense, dictates he couldn't defeat him within those 37 seconds they fought.

Yoda could not pacify the Count if he wanted to and so Dooku fought him off and escaped to avoid the reinforcements that were on their way.

It would take a very difficult fight for (Rusty) Yoda at that time, to defeat Count Dooku either through pacification (severing of a limb/TK) or death.

The lives of countless innocent women, children and babies, stacked against this decision, are partially testament to this fact.

Whereas for Zonakin, against a more experienced Dooku, it was also a difficult fight - with Anakin struggling not to give in to the Dark side and kill Dooku (in the middle of the fight) but he still managed to out-technique Dooku and pacify him whereas an earlier version of Yoda could not.


Anakin was later able to do what an earlier version of Yoda was not capable of - and to put things in perspective - and you can actually go watch the fights and see this for yourself - Both of their fights with Dooku lasted 37 seconds.


BvnwLLXHabg
4:00 to 4:37

kmIkpRkgaZk
1:55 to 2:32


(AotC) Yoda fought Dooku for 37 seconds - and could not even lay a simple cut on him, that would (harmlessly) incapacitate him like it did with Obi-wan.


When Anakin had his 37 second duel with Dooku, he managed to avoid directly killing the Count at first, and instead simply out-techniqued him and surgically removed his hands.

So, they both have a 1-on-1 duel with the Count - all Yoda needs to do, is put a simple cut on Dooku's leg ala Dooku-Kenobi - and billions of lives are literally spared.

Yoda can't do it in that amount of time. Reinforcements of Clones are on the way, and Dooku makes his departure.


Anakin later has his 1-on-1 exclusive duel with the Count - with literally the same amount of time it took Yoda to be fended off - Anakin out-techniques the Count.

So literally, with all the mathematical-trimmings - who is better? Anakin.

And it is that later version of Anakin, which could handle the earlier version of Yoda, in a lightsaber duel.

Saavy?





Yes, because Sidious uses the Dark side.

How can Mace not be above Dooku instead of on par, when Dooku uses the Dark side as well?

Yoda's judgement there, is clearly flawed.





Hmm - you make an interesting argument.

If Zonakin can beat Sidious in lightsabers, then I'm sure he can beat an earlier, rusty version of Yoda in lightsabers, too.

Especially when in the same 37 seconds, it takes Yoda to stalemate with Dooku - Anakin defeats him via simple incapacitation.

Anakin wins.

Lol wut...Anakin defeats a Dooku who's already tired from fighting both him and Kenobi simultaneously. He overextended himself.

Originally posted by Rookwood



Hmm? I never said they were equal. Go back and read carefully - I said that Yoda could not pacify Dooku in the duel easily, in any kind of way.



I don't care for your over sarcastic tone in the rest of your post, but I'll address this part.

I never said Yoda was seriously holding back because he loved Count Dooku too much. Other people have claimed this but not me.

Count Dooku did hold his own in that duel, no doubt. But Yoda would have won as he's more powerful and has greater force reserves. He just needed more time to defeat a powerhouse like Count Dooku.

But as many people have pointed out here, it has no bearing on an AOTC Yoda vs ROTS Anakin fight.

First of all someone beating someone quicker does not necessarily make them superior, or Count Dooku would be far far more powerful than Anakin based on how long it takes each of them to defeat Obi-Wan.

Or CW Maul would be far far more powerful than CW Obi-Wan based on how quickly and easily he stomped Opress in comparison to Obi-Wan. But clearly that also isn't the case.

Every character has different strengths and weaknesses which come into play in these things.

Secondly like others have pointed out to you, the reason ROTS Anakin defeated Count Dooku so quickly in their one one one as compared to Yoda, was because Count Dooku had drained a lot his Force reserves by the time it came to his final one on one with Anakin.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't care for your over sarcastic tone in the rest of your post, but I'll address this part.

I never said Yoda was seriously holding back because he loved Count Dooku too much. Other people have claimed this but not me.

Count Dooku did hold his own in that duel, no doubt. But Yoda would have won as he's more powerful and has greater force reserves. He just needed more time to defeat a powerhouse like Count Dooku.

But as many people have pointed out here, it has no bearing on an AOTC Yoda vs ROTS Anakin fight.

First of all someone beating someone quicker does not necessarily make them superior, or Count Dooku would be far far more powerful than Anakin based on how long it takes each of them to defeat Obi-Wan.

Or CW Maul would be far far more powerful than CW Obi-Wan based on how quickly and easily he stomped Opress in comparison to Obi-Wan. But clearly that also isn't the case.

Every character has different strengths and weaknesses which come into play in these things.

Secondly like others have pointed out to you, the reason ROTS Anakin defeated Count Dooku so quickly in their one one one as compared to Yoda, was because Count Dooku had drained a lot his Force reserves by the time it came to his final one on one with Anakin.

Well stated DP.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not to mention Yoda is the most skilled lightsaber duelist of his time

In fact, according to one issue of Insider, Yoda may very well be the most skilled duelist in the history of the order.

Yoda wins

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yoda is physically stronger than Dooku.

A three foot tall midget is stronger than a 6'5 guy? Really?


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
whereas Yoda is use to fighting bigger opponents, so the size difference would be an advantage in Yoda's favor.

Actually, considering AotC Yoda couldn't even lay a single cut on Dooku, I'd say Yoda's imagined-advantage here is moot.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not to mention Yoda is the most skilled lightsaber duelist of his time, and has managed to outduel (or disarm according to the ROTS script) someone who is superior and considerably faster than Anakin.

Right - except we're not talking about RotS Yoda here, we're talking about AotC (Aka "Rusty" Yoda/Non-battle-hardened Yoda).

AotC Yoda couldn't even manage to lay a cut on AotC Dooku - so he'd likely get defeated or stalemated by RotS Sidious in lightsabers.

- And - get killed by Dooku's superior, Zonakin.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Lol wut...Anakin defeats a Dooku who's already tired from fighting both him and Kenobi simultaneously. He overextended himself.


Lol - and Yoda stalemates with a Dooku who's already expended energy fighting Anakin and Obi-wan - and used up considerable Force energy hurling Lightning and tearing off pieces of walls and the ceiling to throw at Yoda beforehand.

Does the fact that Yoda was only able to stalemate with him, make Yoda even pathetic in retrospect?

Dooku had a good warm-up in both fights, and didn't have much to worry about from Kenobi and Anakin at the same time (Because if the opposite of this were true - they would have stomped him) seeing as how they had to coordinate their attacks around each other, which evidently didn't work very well.

It was only when Anakin was alone with Dooku, and focused, did Dooku have major problems.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't care for your over sarcastic tone in the rest of your post, but I'll address this part.

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u387/spotty3/FunnyBernie.jpg


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

I never said Yoda was seriously holding back because he loved Count Dooku too much. Other people have claimed this but not me.


I know, but I wanted to make sure that was properly addressed and people realize how that theory makes absolutely no sense for obvious reasons.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Count Dooku did hold his own in that duel, no doubt. But Yoda would have won as he's more powerful and has greater force reserves. He just needed more time to defeat a powerhouse like Count Dooku.


Very true.

I'm sure his later RotS self could have defeated him much quicker.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

But as many people have pointed out here, it has no bearing on an AOTC Yoda vs ROTS Anakin fight.

Oh, it does.

Dooku had a good warm-up before his 1-on-1 fight with Yoda in AotC, and he had a good warm-up before his 1-on-1 fight with Anakin in RotS.

But it was shown that it would take a rusty AotC Yoda much longer to even incapacitate Dooku than RotS Anakin.

All Yoda had to do is inflict a small cut with his lightsaber ala Dooku-Kenobi, (which should be easy for him, considering it's a less difficult attack to produce, and he's small and agile enough to deliver it) but he couldn't get past Dooku's defenses quickly enough - but Anakin could.

Not only was Anakin fast enough to get past Dooku's defenses - he was able to produce a slightly more complex amputation, which of course takes more timing and focus.

Dooku spent a lot of Force energy in AotC (arguably more than in RotS) when he was firing off streams of Force lightning and throws sections of the wall and ceiling at Yoda, and before that already having a focused-duel with Anakin - having drained energy, in the same time it took Anakin to defeat Dooku, Yoda was only able to stalemate with him.

So, yes, it very much so has a lot of bearing - RotS Zonakin has an edge over Yoda in lightsabers - and with this being a pure saber duel, Anakin wins.

That's what the math points to, unless you want to play pretend.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER

First of all someone beating someone quicker does not necessarily make them superior, or Count Dooku would be far far more powerful than Anakin based on how long it takes each of them to defeat Obi-Wan.

That's a bullshit argument, and I think you likely already know that.

"Anakin" is a different Persona than "Vader" - each being a different individual mentally - down to how they fight and utilise the Force in combat.

Dooku could likely defeat Pre-suit Vader - whereas the actual Peak Anakin Skywalker (Zonakin) trashed him, instead.

- Beating someone quicker does make them more superior than the other person - especially considering that Count Dooku; The Master of Makashi - the elegant consummate sword-style, is a perfect example for quantification.

All Yoda needed to do, was inflict a small, quick cut - and given his physical attributes, as have been stated before, it would have been easy for him to do - but he couldn't get past the Count's defenses quick enough.

- Anakin could, and did - and not only that - executed a more complex amputation that took more time and focus.

Anakin succeeded, where a rusty version of Yoda failed.

And accordingly it is that version of Anakin, that could defeat that version of Yoda, in strictly a saber duel.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Or CW Maul would be far far more powerful than CW Obi-Wan based on how quickly and easily he stomped Opress in comparison to Obi-Wan. But clearly that also isn't the case.

That CGI travesty is nonsensical and was created for children.

I stopped watching it after the episode where Dooku was trapped like a mouse by mere Pirates.

In fact, I feel literally embarrassed for anyone who does watch it, and takes it into consideration.

That show, is sludge.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Every character has different strengths and weaknesses which come into play in these things.

Uh huh. Then perhaps you need to take these things into account more accurately in the future.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Secondly like others have pointed out to you, the reason ROTS Anakin defeated Count Dooku so quickly in their one one one as compared to Yoda, was because Count Dooku had drained a lot his Force reserves by the time it came to his final one on one with Anakin.

Right - and Dooku didn't fire off streams of Lightning at Obi-wan and later Yoda - along with sections of the wall and ceiling just before his 1-on-1 with Yoda in AotC.

Dooku used and drained a lot more Force energy there - and Yoda still couldn't defeat him.

Well, what you lack in a cogent, supported argument you more than make up for in spamming one baseless claim after another. Bonus points for the ambition of trying to disregard TCW.

Originally posted by Rookwood




That CGI travesty is nonsensical and was created for children.

I stopped watching it after the episode where Dooku was trapped like a mouse by mere Pirates.

In fact, I feel literally embarrassed for anyone who does watch it, and takes it into consideration.

That show, is sludge.




This is not an argument. This is you avoiding an argument by stating "Oh I don't like that completely Canon show created and executive produced by Lucas himself, so I'll just ignore it."

Star Wars was always aimed primarily at 12 year olds. It just so happened that adults loved it as well.

And your argument that it's aimed at kids becomes even more laughable when your using the CW Mini cartoon to prove your main points.

I, also, support the idea that Dooku stalemated Yoda but the way you argue it is just hilarious. People keep lowballing Vader for his physical limitations, yet, completely fail to consider Yoda's numerous and far worse limitations.

Also, CW actually resurected this forum and gave lots of topics to discuss new and old things.

Why do people keep saying Dooku STALEMATED Yoda.. He did no such thing.. He tucked tail and ran away from Yoda. Yoda wasn't trying to kill his former apprentice he was trying to capture him, which means, he was fighting differently than he might had he been bloodlusted. Dooku survived being captured for a period of time is about all that could be said.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Why do people keep saying Dooku STALEMATED Yoda..

Did you see Yoda kick his ass? If so please point out to me when that happened.

Dooku held his own for a short time at least.


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
He did no such thing.. He tucked tail and ran away from Yoda. Yoda wasn't trying to kill his former apprentice he was trying to capture him, which means, he was fighting differently than he might had he been bloodlusted.

Poor excuse considering Anakin defeated Dooku without killing him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
This is not an argument. This is you avoiding an argument by stating "Oh I don't like that completely Canon show created and executive produced by Lucas himself, so I'll just ignore it."

Star Wars was always aimed primarily at 12 year olds. It just so happened that adults loved it as well.

And your argument that it's aimed at kids becomes even more laughable when your using the CW Mini cartoon to prove your main points.

You seemed to have jumped on board with me, subtley, in a very polite way.

I don't really care about that cartoon, but I see you support my view now:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Did you see Yoda kick his ass? If so please point out to me when that happened.

Dooku held his own for a short time at least.

Poor excuse considering Anakin defeated Dooku without killing him.

That's good. Common sense is always a good thing to exercise.

Welcome aboard.

Where is the common sense in viewing Yoda not being able to defeat Anakin at? I see no such common sense at all in fact.

Let's examine the fights... Dooku vs. Anakin.. The first time they meet... Dooku one shots Anakin constituting a forum win.. Then during the same fight a little later gets his arm chopped off. That is essentially two losses in one fight. The next time they meet.. AGAIN Anakin has help and the movie, script and novel make it clear that Dooku had depleted vital reserves in fighting both of them off. Let me also remind you that Dooku was instructed NOT to kill Anakin.. so that entire start and middle of the fight is null and void of Dooku going for the killing blow on Anakin. Then.. a weakened dooku gets taken out by Anakin... This is somehow more impressive than...

Yoda.. not wanting to kill dooku WITH NO help at the same time making Dooku duck tail and flew? How on earth are you guys saying Anakin looked more impressive in his showings against Dooku.. That couldn't be further from the truth. Yoda was neither one shot.. made to have a stump of arm or have help in fighting dooku draining his reserves.

how about we go further... Kenobi... obviously below Windu or Yoda... was able to beat Anakin and turn him into a pint sized midget when he was done with him. Again another defeat for Anakin.. something Kenobi would never have done against Yoda. I won't even get into how Sids is well above Vader and how Yoda got the best of Sids.. No need to even go there.

Point is, yoda beats anakin, and really it wouldn't be that hard.. espeically if it's all out. In sabers anakin will do well but will be beaten

Originally posted by Rookwood
but I see you support my view now:





No. Because I believe Yoda would have defeated Dooku had the fight continued.

And I don't see this difference between AOTC Yoda and ROTS Yoda that you see.

I agree with the point that pure sabers are the only area Anakin can contend with Yoda (though, I'll give the edge to Yoda)
In the Force--Yoda takes it,
and so Yoda takes all out (against Zone Anakin) 7/10

(Against CW Anakin he takes 10/10 IMHO)

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Where is the common sense in viewing Yoda not being able to defeat Anakin at?

Because strict interpretation of choreography without consideration of other factors (e.g., the script, the novel, circumstance, motivation, etc.) might very well lead one to conclude that Dooku was Yoda's equal in that fight.

That you ironically demand this same sort of interpretation for Windu vs. Sidious amuses me to no end.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I see no such common sense at all in fact.

I imagine it's hard to see that which you're incapable of.

Common sense is that Anakin at that point is Jedi for 10 years, which is more than enough to reach prime. There are Force users that reached prime within 1-2 years, he can't be THAT untallented comparing to them.
Common sense is that by that time he reached at least half of his potental(full potential with rage), which means that he is at least as powerful as Yoda.
Common sense is that he learned lesson from first fight with Dooku and dedicated enough time to lightsaber combat to become Master of his Form.
Common sense is that Anakin doesn't have physical limitations, thus doesn't need to waste power on overcoming them like Yoda.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No. Because I believe Yoda would have defeated Dooku had the fight continued.

Sure - he would have. Dooku basically just held him off, and did a great job of it, considering who he was fighting.

That speaks to Dooku's skill, which is considerable.

But Annie did better than a rusty-version of Yoda in that particular department, later on.



And I don't see this difference between AOTC Yoda and ROTS Yoda that you see.

Imagine if you were bought free passes to a martial arts Dojo - you train there for ten years (Or how about we say, 30) and you attain a multi-degree Black belt rank.

You become amongst the most skilled and experienced members of that Dojo.

- Then you get called off to war.

You fight in a war for three years, as a sort of Front-line commander - you get involved in firefights, and a large share of close-encounters with the enemy, that require hand-to-hand combat.

You return 3 years later.

- In three years, a person can't age much - but they can sharpen their skillset, and learn much more than they had before.

After those three years, not only would you be a better fighter - you would be a considerably better combatant - with your outlook changed, skillset more geared towards combative efficiency.

- That was the Yoda that existed after the Clone Wars.


Beforehand, he hadn't participated in a war; certainly not like the Clone Wars - he was just a highly skilled and powerful Jedi Master.

- After the War, he wasn't rusty anymore, as he had been before, and his skillset was sharpened, and he was more used to fighting powerful and deadly opponents.



Before the war, in a short duel, he was only able to stalemate an equally-rusty Dooku.

- After the war, in a short duel, he was able to disarm a fully-seasoned Darth Sidious.

- That's the difference.

Peak Anakin could kill AotC Yoda in a pure-saber duel.



Originally posted by axel_jovan
I agree with the point that pure sabers are the only area Anakin can contend with Yoda (though, I'll give the edge to Yoda)
In the Force--Yoda takes it,
and so Yoda takes all out (against Zone Anakin) 7/10


I agree with this also - it's a good way to look at it.

In 10 fights with each other, Zonakin would definitely kill AotC Yoda in some of those fights.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Imagine if you were bought free passes to a martial arts Dojo - you train there for ten years (Or how about we say, 30) and you attain a multi-degree Black belt rank.

You become amongst the most skilled and experienced members of that Dojo.

- Then you get called off to war.

You fight in a war for three years, as a sort of Front-line commander - you get involved in firefights, and a large share of close-encounters with the enemy, that require hand-to-hand combat.

You return 3 years later.

- In three years, a person can't age much - but they can sharpen their skillset, and learn much more than they had before.

After those three years, not only would you be a better fighter - you would be a considerably better combatant - with your outlook changed, skillset more geared towards combative efficiency.

- That was the Yoda that existed after the Clone Wars.


Beforehand, he hadn't participated in a war; certainly not like the Clone Wars - he was just a highly skilled and powerful Jedi Master.

- After the War, he wasn't rusty anymore, as he had been before, and his skillset was sharpened, and he was more used to fighting powerful and deadly opponents.



Before the war, in a short duel, he was only able to stalemate an equally-rusty Dooku.

- After the war, in a short duel, he was able to disarm a fully-seasoned Darth Sidious.

- That's the difference.

Peak Anakin could kill AotC Yoda in a pure-saber duel.

Such logic perfectly applies to Kenobi. In AotC he is acomplished Master, yet, Dooku easily defeated him. However, in next three years he improved as much as Anakin.

As for Yoda he confronted darksiders before, Dagobah is one of the proofs. In my opinion because of his size he can stalemate in combat anyone. While he lacks disarming power as seen in AotC, I think it's nearly impossible to strike down such a small midget whirlwinding all over the place. Sidious was especially at disadvantage on those platforms, he couldn't move around, while Yoda
could still jump around like always.

Are you serious ?
he barely beat Obi Wan. I wouldn't disrespect Yoda to
AOTC Anakin
Most definitely not ROTS Anakin or Pre or Peak suit Vader.

if Dooku and Sidious had a hard time with Yoda
what makes yall think that ROTS or Zone Anakin can beat Yoda?

In AOTC Obi Wan told Anakin that HE didn't rival Master Yoda as a Swordsman.
Only in Anakin's mind
just like this thread if you think Anakin can beat Yoda in a Saber duel.... lol

Imagine ?
I can already see Yoda's blade every where.
and Anakin making that same mistake with Obi Wan

Except Yoda will meet Anakin in mid - air taking the very same limbs
Obi Wan took from him. lol

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Imagine ?
I can already see Yoda's blade every where.
and Anakin making that same mistake with Obi Wan

Except Yoda will meet Anakin in mid - air taking the very same limbs
Obi Wan took from him. lol haha hard

Simple. Twice more powerful. No physical limitations whatsoever. Undergone over 10 years of proper Jedi tutelage including 1000s hours of sparring with Kenobi. Gained hell lot of combat experience through out CW. Outskilled Dooku on two occasions, while Yoda in two longer fights never outskilled Dooku. Plenty of reasons really...

Originally posted by Arhael
Plenty of reasons really...

None of them valid, of course, but don't let that stop you.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
None of them valid, of course, but don't let that stop you.
They don't have to be valid to everyone.

How about centuries to your thousand?
We don't know Yoda's Force reserves
Yoda is still everywhere and nowhere for Anakin to even grab or strike him.

Yoda is just too fast and too far experience ed for Anakin.
He never rivaled Yoda.

I agree with Tempest.

Arhael,that's like me trying to fight the Grand Master of any martial art style .
seriously!!!
the fight will be over before I bow to the master or ATTEMPT to rise my hands !!!! lol.

No almost 800yrs. Damn!!!that's a long time to a thousand or so hrs of training and in the CW.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
No almost 800yrs. Damn!!!that's a long time to a thousand or so hrs of training and in the CW.

One more thing Yoda doesn't give in to blind rage or the dark side so thats 3 stikes against
any Anakin of any era.

Yoda got this one!!!
Yoda probably won't even clash blades or touch blades with Anakin.
He'll be moving so fast that it will look like Anakin fighting himself!!! LOL

Then he'll get angry,then he'll give in to rage and the dark side blindly
And finally loosing some limbs or his head!!! take your pick.

I personally take back every wrong thing I said about Yoda.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
One more thing Yoda doesn't give in to blind rage or the dark side so thats 3 stikes against
any Anakin of any era.

Yoda got this one!!!
Yoda probably won't even clash blades or touch blades with Anakin.
He'll be moving so fast that it will look like Anakin fighting himself!!! LOL

Then he'll get angry,then he'll give in to rage and the dark side blindly
And finally loosing some limbs or his head!!! take your pick.

I personally take back every wrong thing I said about Yoda.
Now I am a Sith fan, but there have been few sith lords ever who could stand up to yoda. So yeah, Yoda ftw!

Originally posted by Arhael
Simple. Twice more powerful.

He has more raw power at his disposal. But realized power is something different.

Originally posted by Arhael
Undergone over 10 years of proper Jedi tutelage including 1000s hours of sparring with Kenobi. Gained hell lot of combat experience through out CW.

Have to agree with Juyomaster here. Yoda's centuries of experience and expertise pretty much dwarfs everyone else's.

Originally posted by Arhael
Outskilled Dooku on two occasions, while Yoda in two longer fights never outskilled Dooku. Plenty of reasons really...

How were Yoda's fights with Dooku longer? Their Saber fight in AOTC was 30 seconds. Their fight on Vjun was presumably much longer, but it was on a planet steeped in the Dark Side.

Anakin's fight with Dooku in "Crisis on Naboo" lasted about a minute before Anakin kicked Dooku down. Note - The stairs Dooku was standing on couldn't have helped his footing, and it would be much harder to kick an opponent as small, fast and athletic as Yoda.

Finally in the Anakin vs Dooku in ROTS the whole fight was like a couple of minutes. We can't just ignore that the fight started with Obi-Wan helping Anakin which was tiring Dooku down.

Originally posted by juyomaster34

Yoda is still everywhere and nowhere for Anakin to even grab or strike him.

Yoda is just too fast and too far experience ed for Anakin.
He never rivaled Yoda.

I agree with Tempest.

Tempest didn't actually say that Anakin never rivaled Yoda so you should probably wait for him to give an opinion before agreeing with him.

I personally think ROTS Anakin may well be able to rival Yoda in a Pure Saber fight. Although I still think Yoda would probably beat him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He has more raw power at his disposal. But realized power is something different.



Have to agree with Juyomaster here. Yoda's centuries of experience and expertise pretty much dwarfs everyone else's.



How were Yoda's fights with Dooku longer? Their Saber fight in AOTC was 30 seconds. Their fight on Vjun was presumably much longer, but it was on a planet steeped in the Dark Side.

Anakin's fight with Dooku in "Crisis on Naboo" lasted about a minute before Anakin kicked Dooku down. Note - The stairs Dooku was standing on couldn't have helped his footing, and it would be much harder to kick an opponent as small, fast and athletic as Yoda.

Finally in the Anakin vs Dooku in ROTS the whole fight was like a couple of minutes. We can't just ignore that the fight started with Obi-Wan helping Anakin which was tiring Dooku down.
Agreed. I really think that Yoda is stronger than Anakin is. All of that jumping around is Ataru which requires insane force mastery to perfect. Yoda can jump around like that for entire fights without tiring himself out. Anakin uses the Force to make his strikes stronger, but that doesn't help if anakin can't hit his target....

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Agreed. I really think that Yoda is stronger than Anakin is. All of that jumping around is Ataru which requires insane force mastery to perfect. Yoda can jump around like that for entire fights without tiring himself out. Anakin uses the Force to make his strikes stronger, but that doesn't help if anakin can't hit his target....

Yes but all that jumping around for Yoda can get tiring. Whilst Anakin only gets stronger as the fight goes on.

Strength and stamina will be in Anakin's favor. And he doesn't lack skill either. So a pure Saber duel could be a good one. But my gut says Yoda would still win.

Nah, I'd say Anakin wins. But most of the reasons Arhael provided are mildly retarded at best.

Good point, I said that in a reply before(the rival thing)
I was agreeing with his point after my reply.
Like Darth shadow said he'll have to hit Yoda first,

Yoda might get tired but when will that be?(His Force Reserves)?
if he can't hit Yoda?
What if Yoda calls the duel to an end and decides to use the Force?

I'm a Sith Fan too. I was hoping Yoda would come out of exile and give us One more match!!!!
LOL. Darth Power like always you surprise me with your RAW SIT YOUR A$$ DOWN Replies!!!

You guys are very Entertaining!!! This is fun!!!!! lol!!!

Originally posted by juyomaster34
I'm a Sith Fan too. I was hoping Yoda would come out of exile and give us One more match!!!!
LOL. Darth Power like always you surprise me with your RAW SIT YOUR A$$ DOWN Replies!!!

You guys are very Entertaining!!! This is fun!!!!! lol!!!
Glad you are having fun buddy! and btw, my name is Sadow. there is no 'h'. Darth Sadow.

He has more raw power at his disposal. But realized power is something different.
What exactly do you mean by that?


Makes no difference. To reach prime in combat a few years needed, not centuries. Otherwise Dooku wouldn't be able to stalemate Yoda as he has centuries less experience as well.


Dooku engaged Yoda in pure sabers for 30 seconds. Anakin in less than 30 seconds put Dooku on defencive and forced him to rely on TK.


True. Now lets take other things into consideration.
How Dooku ended up on those stairs?
Because Anakin forced Dooku to fight defencively and was driving him back.
Why Dooku lost footing? Because Anakin kicked him.
Now lets put Yoda in Anakin's place. In their 30 seconds fight Dooku didn't make a single step backward and wasn't fighting defencively either, in fact he attacked Yoda more than vice versa, so Yoda wouldn't be able to corner Dooku in similar fasion. And even, if Yoda could drive him back "somehow", he can't kick either to put him on his ass, so again fail.

So question is how Yoda would outskill Anakin, if he can't even put Dooku on defencive??? People keep saying Yoda can outskill him but clueless how he gonna do it.

Yoda could win Dooku by tiring him up, not by outskilling. Same tactic fails against Anakin. Not only Anakin has more reserves but Yoda needs to waste extra power to overcome his physical limitstions as well.


We can't ignore that Dooku was as tired before fighting Yoda either. He fought both Kenobi and Anakin and used lightning against both of them. Then he attempted to Force handle Yoda as well wasting even more power. And still he had put up better fight against Yoda, than in CW against Anakin, when he was completely fresh.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, I'd say Anakin wins. But most of the reasons Arhael provided are mildly retarded at best.
How about you give reasons that are valid for you instead of giving useless rant with nothing positive in it? If you don't want to engage in the debate, then troll elsewhere.

Originally posted by Arhael
How about you give reasons that are valid for you instead of giving useless rant with nothing positive in it? If you don't want to engage in the debate, then troll elsewhere.

Because POWER is rebutting your points adequately. Why should I waste my time with reiteration?