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In a battle of wits , intelligence and knowledge , which of these two prodigious kids from the Future Foundation and the Hellfire Club respectively , wins ?

Valeria is much smarter, but Kade is a sociopath so good fight.

I'm saying Kade wins a prep fight

What are some Kade intelligence feats?

He killed his father and took over the hellfire club, its more his resources that make him dangerous.

He has an army of crazy zealots who hate mutants And are willing to die for him

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Valeria is much smarter, but Kade is a sociopath so good fight.

I'm saying Kade wins a prep fight
How ? Val's prep experience includes her being influential in delaying the MC's sufficiently , along with aiding in the defeat of the Marquis of Death(who's as much of sociopathic freak guy as they come) .

She developed a a comprehensive plan on how to defeat and subjugate one of the most advanced interstellar civilizations in the galaxy . Granted , it never got enacted , but still .

IMO , Val takes this one , although it'll be close .

Originally posted by pym-ftw
He killed his father and took over the hellfire club, its more his resources that make him dangerous.

He has an army of crazy zealots who hate mutants And are willing to die for him
If you give him this battle based on resources , then Val's outshine anything Kilgore has . I am not sure whether the Hellfire Club could take down the Future Foundation , plus Val has access to all of her father's superior gadgetry and stuff .

Her tendency to lie and deceive(a trait which is reminiscent if Doom) implies an aggressive personality , and it nullifies whatever psychological advantage Kade might hold on her .

Valeria has little experience, and Kilgore will fight a fight she isn't ready for, he has attacked innocent children in the past to get what he wants.

She is mature for a child but she just hasn't shown the faculties emotionally for this kind of war

This would a great confrontation! That said, although Kade is an intelligent badass in his own right, Valeria would likely outsmart him. She's far too intelligent and, unlike her brother Franklin, has an untapped darker side -- a side that Kade might underestimate in her. It would be really cool to see various members the Future Foundation (e.g., Val, Franklin, Bentley, Alex..) interact with the new Hellfire Club though. Kade and Val might actually have a mutual respect for each other. He'd definitely be disgusted with Franklin, though, for obvious reasons. Kade hates mutants and Franklin clearly represents the ultimate potential in that particular species. And, considering that they're both somewhat close in age, Kade might foolishly view Franklin as a rival (much the same way Lex looks upon Superman).

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Valeria has little experience, and Kilgore will fight a fight she isn't ready for, he has attacked innocent children in the past to get what he wants.

She is mature for a child but she just hasn't shown the faculties emotionally for this kind of war

He would underestimate her dark side though. If you combine that with her vast intellectual prowess, Val comes out ahead. Sure, Kade would do some damage, but in the end, he would unlikely prevail against the child who might, one day, become Doom.

Her "Dark side" is being overrated, Kilgore killed his father in cold blood and sent his sentinels after students just because he could.

He would have no hangups on trying to kill Franklin just to spite Valeria.

(Not saying he could kill Franklin.)

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
If you give him this battle based on resources , then Val's outshine anything Kilgore has . I am not sure whether the Hellfire Club could take down the Future Foundation , plus Val has access to all of her father's superior gadgetry and stuff .

Her tendency to lie and deceive(a trait which is reminiscent if Doom) implies an aggressive personality , and it nullifies whatever psychological advantage Kade might hold on her .

Agreed. In my opinion, Valeria is a somewhat darker version of her father, Reed Richards. Franklin, although obviously more powerful, is more like Sue. That said, you really don't want to mess with a darker version of Reed Richards -- child or not.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Her "Dark side" is being overrated, Kilgore killed his father in cold blood and sent his sentinels after students just because he could.

(Not saying he could kill Franklin.)

You're looking at what they've done in simplistic terms. Valeria, having recently assured her parents that she would no longer keep secrets from them, conveniently neglected to inform them how she left a special "gift" for her "Uncle" Doom, that is, an entire room full of alternate Dooms as well as two infinity gauntlets. She essentially gave Doom the means to do a lot more damage than killing a single human being in cold blood. Valeria plays both sides. "Look like the flower, but be the serpent under it!"

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Valeria has little experience, and Kilgore will fight a fight she isn't ready for, he has attacked innocent children in the past to get what he wants.

She is mature for a child but she just hasn't shown the faculties emotionally for this kind of war
Except for the instances I mentioned .
He has attacked a bunch of kids ? Wow really impressive . Compared to Val who was building plans to conquer and subjugate the whole Kree empire just for the lulz .

Prove it .

She is mischievous, He is a cold blooded killer

There are tiers of evil between them,

And that bears no consequence on who would win in a battle of wits and brains .

Not to mention that she has seen and dealt with evil which would make Kade look like an emo phag .

Originally posted by Doon
This would a great confrontation! That said, although Kade is an intelligent badass in his own right, Valeria would likely outsmart him. She's far too intelligent and, unlike her brother Franklin, has an untapped darker side -- a side that Kade might underestimate in her. It would be really cool to see various members the Future Foundation (e.g., Val, Franklin, Bentley, Alex..) interact with the new Hellfire Club though. Kade and Val might actually have a mutual respect for each other. He'd definitely be disgusted with Franklin, though, for obvious reasons. Kade hates mutants and Franklin clearly represents the ultimate potential in that particular species. And, considering that they're both somewhat close in age, Kade might foolishly view Franklin as a rival (much the same way Lex looks upon Superman).
That Superman-Luthor analogy is pretty insightful . IMO , this fight may be like Batman(Val) vs Luthor(Kade) , since Val probably is to Franklin what Batman is to Superman .

^ You wouldn't say Lex > Bruce in a prep war?

Originally posted by pym-ftw
She is mischievous, He is a cold blooded killer

There are tiers of evil between them,

Having a darker side doesn't necessarily equate to evil, I think. Bruce Wayne, for example, makes use of his vast intelligence and resources, along with his obvious darker methodology to outsmart and take down "cold blooded killers" all the time.

Valeria is simply Kade's intellectual superior. She'd disable his resources and hurt him in ways he wouldn't see coming.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
^ You wouldn't say Lex > Bruce in a prep war?
This is similar to that , not exactly like that . I don't know who exactly would come out on top b/w Lex and Bruce , so I won't comment on those two .

Kade has nowhere near the feats to contend with Valeria . His ruthlessness and aggression are the only thing which'll give him an advantage against her , and whether it'll be enough to beat her is debatable .

Also , IIRC , during Reed and Pym's squabble over some silly transducer , didn't Val outsmart Amadeus Cho ?

He will bomb the Baxter building, her "resources" are all public, the paparazzi follows her family around.

Like I said, currently she doesn't have the emotional or rational faculties needed to win this

Originally posted by pym-ftw
She is mischievous, He is a cold blooded killer

And to make an additional point, Valeria is more "mischievous" than you apparently realize. Her connection to Doom is certainly worthy of notice. If Kade pushed her far enough, she would definitely cross the line.

http://www.aaroncity.com/graphics/lj/comics/FF588/018.jpg

^^^ Mischievous huh?

Yup , and then Reed(or Val herself) will just as simply restore the Baxter Building with the click of a button . Unless you want to argue that he can produce greater firepower than a bunch of Celestials ?

Its not really going to be that effective at all .

How does she beat him? I mean how does she find him and restrain him or do you think she will kill him?

Originally posted by pym-ftw
He will bomb the Baxter building, her "resources" are all public, the paparazzi follows her family around.

Like I said, currently she doesn't have the emotional or rational faculties needed to win this

Not saying he wouldn't hurt her at first. In fact, an initial attack from Kade would possibly free Val from the constraints of her own morality. She obviously struggles with it. Freed of those constraints, it would be game over for Kade. Also, she doesn't need to rely on the paparazzi to gather intel about the Hellfire Club. Like I said before, she's an intellectual prodigy. Kade, on the other hand, relies heavily on monetary resources. For Val, it would be child's play to shut him down; then she would have one of his very own sentinels hand deliver Kade over on a silver platter.

If he crosses the line , then she won't have any problem doing that . Otherwise , she can simply bfr him into the Negative Zone for imprisonment .

Her team is powerful enough imo to take down the Hellfire Club , she has better resources at her disposal , even if he somehow manages to lay siege to the Baxter Building , it won't be long before she regains control of the situation , and throughout their battle she'll probably be a step ahead of him . This is the same girl who manipulated most of the people around her including her father , and kept them out of the loop throughout her plan . She lied to her parents even while promising not to do so , and the thing which she hid from them could potentially end the universe .

All I can say is i'd love a FF/Hellfire crossover

What if killgore sends a zealot out with a bomb on his chest to frame johnny for accidental homicide, I mean that is kilgore's best resource

Val will probably figure out that it was him . Her analysis would probably help in Johnny's defense .

Then , as payback , she'll probably hack a couple of his sentinels and bring down his business right on his head .

Or she could manipulate and turn some of his cohorts against him .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
If he crosses the line , then she won't have any problem doing that . Otherwise , she can simply bfr him into the Negative Zone for imprisonment .

Her team is powerful enough imo to take down the Hellfire Club , she has better resources at her disposal , even if he somehow manages to lay siege to the Baxter Building , it won't be long before she regains control of the situation , and throughout their battle she'll probably be a step ahead of him . This is the same girl who manipulated most of the people around her including her father , and kept them out of the loop throughout her plan . She lied to her parents even while promising not to do so , and the thing which she hid from them could potentially end the universe .

Kade's point of weakness stems from his monetary resources. Wolverine (aided by Matt Murdock) almost made him cry when they stuck him with the damage control check for attacking the Jean Grey school. Without cash, he's a sitting duck.

Moreover, Pym proves my point that Kade would likely underestimate Val. On the surface, she seems sweet and merely mischievous. In reality, though, there's a lot more to her than that. We've already seen that she would be willing to kill Annihilus. And she may also be partially (indirectly) responsible for any atrocities committed by the Parliament of Doom at some future juncture.

^^Intending to kill Annihilus is small fry compared to writing a prospectus on conquering and enslaving one of the powerful , influential and well-known alien civilizations in the Cosmos .

There is a huge, huge, huge diffrence between killing an evil Demon bug and killing your own father.

I think my point was missed, how will Valeria find him, and when he is caught there are other members of the hellfire club, not to mention an army who will kill themselves instead of being captured, and Kilgore has connections aswell

Also if Mj, Forge, or Pym can't hack all sentinels I can't see Valeria

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
^^Intending to kill Annihilus is small fry compared to writing a prospectus on conquering and enslaving one of the powerful , influential and well-known alien civilizations in the Cosmos .

Indeed.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
There is a huge, huge, huge diffrence between killing an evil Demon bug and killing your own father.

I think my point was missed, how will Valeria find him, and when he is caught there are other members of the hellfire club, not to mention an army who will kill themselves instead of being captured, and Kilgore has connections aswell

Also if Mj, Forge, or Pym can't hack all sentinels I can't see Valeria
She was willing to pull of the UN on an alternate Reed , which can come pretty close to this " but he killed his own daddy!!!!" thing which you have been harping on about .

Actually , I doubt she would even need to go in an all-out war with him(which could end from a few milliseconds to a couple of hours/days depending on whether Franklin is involved or not , either ways it ends in her favor) , in fact suing him for any property damage he causes should be enough to send him into a suicidal fit :
http://imageshack.us/a/img441/8408/kadeowned.th.jpg

Because afterall if a blithering twit like Wolverine could come with such a counterattack , what's going to prevent a far smarter person in the form of Val from doing something even worse ?

Originally posted by pym-ftw
There is a huge, huge, huge diffrence between killing an evil Demon bug and killing your own father.

Kade's father murdered his mother over some dispute. He later (foolishly) confessed this to Kade. Out of fear that his father would, one day, murder him (like he did his mother), Kade immediately devised a plot to overthrow him. He was basically extrapolating his own demise at the hands of father; therefore, in a bizarre way, he killed him in self-defense.

If Valeria either has her brother, or her father fight this fight she wins.

My whole argument is that if she trys to take him on alone, she will lose because talking a big game and carrying it out are two separate things

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Because afterall if a blithering twit like Wolverine could come with such a counterattack , what's going to prevent a far smarter person in the form of Val from doing something even worse ?

Logan actually went to Matt Murdock for help. That's Matt in the pic with Kade.

With the exception that she has ACTUALLY carried out the big game(what can get bigger than the Marquis of Death in who's defeat she was instrumental?) .

As I showed in my previous scan , suing him alone is enough for her to win this battle , not to mention the countless other options she could theorize and apply to take him down . Bankrupting him and industrial espionage are just two of such possibilities .

Originally posted by Doon
Logan actually went to Matt Murdock for help. That's Matt in the pic with Kade.
Logan came up with the idea(he did , didn't he?) . My point is if a guy like him could do so , what's preventing a far smarter person like Val from doing something even worse ?

What is she suing him for?

Already explained above .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Logan came up with the idea(he did , didn't he?) . My point is if a guy like him could do so , what's preventing a far smarter person like Val from doing something even worse ?

Not sure if it was his idea or Matt's. I think they left it to the reader to decide. Yeah, I gathered as much. The outcome of this fight is definitely in Val's favor.

For something he has already been sued for?

Or do you mean she loses the battle but wins the war? I would concede that one

Originally posted by pym-ftw
For something he has already been sued for?

Or do you mean she loses the battle but wins the war? I would concede that one
What has he already been sued for in this case ?

He wins the battle only if she is willing to let him . Otherwise this fight is over(for him) before it even began .

Originally posted by pym-ftw
If Valeria either has her brother, or her father fight this fight she wins.

My whole argument is that if she trys to take him on alone, she will lose because talking a big game and carrying it out are two separate things

She doesn't need her brother, and she's intellectually on par with her father in many respects.

Without cash behind him, Kade is just a ruthless little nutjob. All Val has to do (and she can do so much more) is stop the flow of his monetary resources. That's it. Really. You don't need to kill someone to destroy him/her. That said, Val takes this simply because she has the necessary means to outwit Kade; she has her vastly superior intellect.

Kade doesn't have any special abilities (powers); he's just ruthless and smart (but nowhere on par with Valeria's intellect). In battles of this nature, smarter people generally come out on top; and Val is just way way up there.

What's her best hacking feat?

Just being smart doesn't mean you can do everything

She retook control(or something of the sort) of the Baxter building after Pym(along with Cho) hacked into it . In doing so , she outsmarted(in his own words "pwned" Amadeus Cho , iirc .

Although , I am sure that that is far from her "best" hacking feat .

Edit : Here it is
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/3853/1098641-pwned_super.jpg

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
She retook control(or something of the sort) of the Baxter building after Pym(along with Cho) hacked into it . In doing so , she outsmarted(in his own words "pwned" Amadeus Cho , iirc .

Although , I am sure that that is far from her "best" hacking feat .

Edit : Here it is
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/3853/1098641-pwned_super.jpg

And this she accomplished at the age of two. Owned. In addition, the fact that Cho himself, considered to be an expert hacker, was so easily outwitted speaks volumes in my opinion.

In the comic, Hercules actually added insult to injury by singing a ballad in reference to the incident:

"There was a boy named Cho
whose most amazing foe
had blonde tresses
and wore dresses
wrapped in a pink bow."