Who can defeat MJJ?

Mr Master

Originally posted by Endless Mike

He was influencing the omniverse slowly,
Solar absorbed the Valiant and Wildstorm omniverse instantly.
Having power over your "omniverse" isn't enough ...
... I don't know what is, ... oh yea, only the Fury.

Actually, Jaspers' warp expands exponentially,
so while it begins moderately, it continuously speeds up as it progresses.
(238 it took I believe 2 days to engulf it ... 616 is not mentioned,
but from one book to the next he became Eternity)

That aside though:

Matrix/Merlyn (uber Omniversal guardian)

Matrix/Merlyn fused the life-force of the Omniverse into tiny crystals.
One crystal for each universe ... crack a crystal, erase a universe.
This is how the Celestial Nullifier is used.

He created (from scratch)
a Pan-Dimensional Reality called "Otherworld" and everything in it.
That means this Reality is made up of several universes.

The "Starlight Citadel" an Omniversal Nexus,
where they can see (and affect) into every Reality simultaneously.
The SC has defenses of its own that can obliterate entire universes.

I Merlyn manipulating team Excalibur into absorbing some of the
energy of his power source at the time. (Energy Matrix)
It was enough to give them the power to literally reverse (and indeed rebuild)
in one swoop the Multiverse entire which was in the process of contracting collapse.

Now Merlyn himself was merged with the Matrix,
so imagine his level if Excalibur can pull that off by simply tapping it.

As incredible as Merlyn was,
the FAR weaker 238 Jaspers' warp "thwarted his abilities."
(but this version of JJ was susceptible to the life-force of the
universe he engulfed dying, so when 238's life-force was erased, so was he)

When it came to 616 MJJ, he understood that without the Fury,
there was no stopping him.
This is why he personally manipulated the events
so the Fury would find it's way into 616 from the nullified 238.

Endless Mike

The Starlight Citadel was conquered by the Manchester Gods (servants of Surtur) so I don't think it's all that great... none of that other stuff compares to what Solar did either

lilshogun

Run for MJJ's money would be mxyzptlk, Tokimi, Emperor Joker, Bat Mite, qwsp, Hao Asakura, Celestial Toymaker,

Absolute Own MJJ: Lucifer Morning Star, The Presence, Great Evil Beast, Elaine, Yibb-Tstll and Yog-Sothoth outer Gods of Lovecraft.

Endless Mike

Originally posted by lilshogun
Hao Asakura

LOL NO

The Merchant

The outergods of Lovecraft would get destroyed by MJJ.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Endless Mike

The Starlight Citadel was conquered by the Manchester Gods
(servants of Surtur) so I don't think it's all that great...
Not my fault it's been de-valued since then.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

none of that
other stuff compares to what Solar did either
If you say so.
But again, Merlyn could crunch the Omniverse as easily as Solar did his,
so I don't see what next level of affecting reality there is.

After this, it's a question of "levels of infinity." ... and there's no way to gauge either one.

All I know is that in Marvel Comics, 616 MJJ was "God" within his warp,
and everything his warp touched, became his to control,
and nothing aside from the Fury (plot device) was able to stop him.

Galan007

Originally posted by Endless Mike
He was influencing the omniverse slowly, Solar absorbed the Valiant and Wildstorm omniverse instantly. Solar also collapsed the entire Acclaim multiverse with a gesture. thumb up

Endless Mike

Originally posted by Mr Master
Not my fault it's been de-valued since then.

I'm not aware of any official depowering or anything.

I'd really like to see some proof of this. He could do nothing against MJJ who was only consuming the omniverse slowly.

If you're talking about the CN, it could only destroy one universe at a time, and there are infinities of infinities of universes in the omniverse. Even if he was operating the CN continuously for all eternity he would never even make a dent in the omniverse.

And Solar, once realizing his full powers, was "God" over all of Valiant and nothing could stop him period...

guy222

LT
Scathan the Approver
Protege
Adam Warlock w/IG
Ereshkigal w/SB

Mr Master

Originally posted by Endless Mike

I'm not aware of any official depowering or anything.
If it went from being able to clobber a universe to being conquered by no-bodies,
what would anyone call it good friend?
Originally posted by Endless Mike

I'd really like to see some proof of this.
He could do nothing against MJJ who was only consuming the omniverse slowly.
I see your confusion.

You think Jaspers warp gets stronger as it expands,
that's where you're mistaken.

MJJ's warp is already all-powerful from the get,
meaning if it has only engulfed a city block,
then withIN that city block, MJJ is "God,"
and no matter what anyone is capable of outside of that warp,
they can't compare to the "God" withIN the warp.

This is a basic, and frankly the simplest way to look at it to avoid mis-understandings.

That's the story of the Jaspers saga.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

If you're talking about the CN, it could only destroy one universe
at a time, and there are infinities of infinities of universes in the
omniverse.
Merlyn has never used, or needed the CN.
He loaned that weapon to the Dimensional Development Court,
so they can erase universes that endangered all reality.
At some point, (off-panel) Roma took it back.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Even if he was operating the CN continuously for all
eternity he would never even make a dent in the omniverse.
The CN is just one of Merlyn's toys he created with his power source.

Merlyn (with Roma)
was manipulating events in the Prime Multiverse via freakin chessboards.

Also Mike, you must've missed the part when I explained how the CN works.
The CN on its own is useless.
It's the "Reality Crystals" which contain the life-force of the Omniverse,
and the life-force of the Omniverse is fused with these crystals courtesy of Merlyn.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

And Solar, once realizing his full powers, was "God" over all of
Valiant and nothing could stop him period...
Cool. I never made any suggestions as to JJ vs Solar.
I don't enjoy debating cross-company battles.

But ... I guess if I had an opinion, I'd say stalemate,
since they were both "Gods."

As for "anyone period" ..

Well friend, Solar is a "good guy" right?

MJJ was literally a mad-man!

You think a story can be made where he goes on and isn't stopped?

This is where a "plot-device" comes in,
one namely created by the inherent power of the Jaspers family.

Go figure.

guy222

Jaime Braddock

abhilegend

A lot of guys.

Endless Mike

Originally posted by Mr Master
If it went from being able to clobber a universe to being conquered by no-bodies,
what would anyone call it good friend?

Maybe it wasn't what it was cracked up to be?

There are a bunch of beings that are "god" inside their realms/dimensions, doesn't make them capable of taking on people way above them.

Darkseid and a Monitor did that in Countdown... not seeing how that compares to Solar.

Okay, what's your point? Solar doesn't need any crystals to do what he does.

Why can't Solar do to him what the Fury did, erase a universe and then send him there and kill him?

Well sometimes it's questionable...

Appeal to plot? Doesn't fly, sorry.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Maybe it wasn't what it was cracked up to be?
Well, on panel (artistically depicted) and in the bios it's an Omniversal Nexus.

That's the same thing that made Havok, an omniversal "god" for a while,
when he was merged to the Swamp Thing's Omnversal Nexus.
In fact, HOM Wanda's 'chaos wave" was able to sunder the
Omniverse via bringing down the Citadel.

Again, some rogue writer coming out the left and making things seem simpler,
is something I can't help.

But, for you to say, "maybe it wasn't what it was cracked up to be"
based on one writer's interpretation
vs the many other instances where the SC has been portrayed correctly ...
... I'll have to disagree with that.

Or again, as simple as the writer ... simply put: retcon.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

There are a bunch of beings that are "god" inside their
realms/dimensions, doesn't make them capable of taking on people way above them.
I'm not talking about those wanna-bees that have been proven wrong.

I'm talking about Jim Jaspers, who proved exactly that.

Merlyn did shit on an Omniversal scale,
238 JJ engulfed Eternity 238,
616 Jaspers went as far as engulfing 616 Eternity,
yet, Merlyn, (omniversal life-force crystals, Starlight Citadel, Celestial Nullifier, multi-dimensional universe: Otherworld,
and allowing Excalibur to absorb a fraction of his power to reverse
a Multiversal contracting collapse in session)

Yes, although all that .. still 238 Jaspers > Matrix/Merlyn

616 Jaspers >>> 238 Jaspers
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Darkseid and a Monitor did that in Countdown... not seeing how that compares to Solar.
Nice. I wasn't comparing Merlyn to anyone,
I'm only telling you what his prior power was capable of.

In what issue did either of your mentions manipulate the Multiverse via chessboards?
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Okay, what's your point? Solar doesn't need any crystals to do what he does.
Exactly, that's my point.

Merlyn's CN is useless without the Crystals.
Merlyn's CN was not created for personal use since again, he doesn't need it.

I don't think you're getting me friend, so if you return with the same mis-understanding,
I'll have to let this discussion go,
since I don't indulge circles anymore for the sake of info.

Once more:

Merlyn fused the life-force of the Omniverse into crystals.

Who gives a hoot about the "crystals?"

The significance here is taking the actual Life-Force of All Reality (omniverse)
and meticulously boding that Life-Force with the crystals so that OTHERS
may be able to erase Realities. (namely the Dimensional Dvelopment Court & Roma)

That's Omniversal manipulation on all levels.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Why can't Solar do to him what the Fury did,
erase a universe and then send him there and kill him?
Fury was the ONLY existence in All Reality that was immune to Jaspers' warp.
On top of having durability above that of Abstracts, (withstanding reality implosions unscathed)
on top of (as a character) having the most effective adaptive ability to this day.(Marvel)

Fury was a plot-device to stop Jaspers.

No Fury = 616 MJJ is "God" of the Omniverse entire.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Well sometimes it's questionable...
He remade Reality right? He remade it to normal proper functioning no?

So yea, basically he's a good guy.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Appeal to plot? Doesn't fly, sorry.
I'm not interested in influencing anyone's opinion, or intransigence at kmc anymore,
my thing is to come into threads when characters I know well
are being demeaned, mis-represented or not given a fair or even an honest shake.

You can call it "appeal to plot," but the facts are undeniable.

Had there been no Fury, ... MJJ becomes "God" of Marvel (in-universe stories)

Twisted comics to sell ey? smile

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well, on panel (artistically depicted) and in the bios it's an Omniversal Nexus.

That's the same thing that made Havok, an omniversal "god" for a while,
when he was merged to the Swamp Thing's Omnversal Nexus.
In fact, HOM Wanda's 'chaos wave" was able to sunder the
Omniverse via bringing down the Citadel.

Again, some rogue writer coming out the left and making things seem simpler,
is something I can't help.

But, for you to say, "maybe it wasn't what it was cracked up to be"
based on one writer's interpretation
vs the many other instances where the SC has been portrayed correctly ...
... I'll have to disagree with that.

Or again, as simple as the writer ... simply put: retcon.

I'm not talking about those wanna-bees that have been proven wrong.

I'm talking about Jim Jaspers, who proved exactly that.

Merlyn did shit on an Omniversal scale,
238 JJ engulfed Eternity 238,
616 Jaspers went as far as engulfing 616 Eternity,
yet, Merlyn, (omniversal life-force crystals, Starlight Citadel, Celestial Nullifier, multi-dimensional universe: Otherworld,
and allowing Excalibur to absorb a fraction of his power to reverse
a Multiversal contracting collapse in session)

Yes, although all that .. still 238 Jaspers > Matrix/Merlyn

616 Jaspers >>> 238 Jaspers

Nice. I wasn't comparing Merlyn to anyone,
I'm only telling you what his prior power was capable of.

In what issue did either of your mentions manipulate the Multiverse via chessboards?

Exactly, that's my point.

Merlyn's CN is useless without the Crystals.
Merlyn's CN was not created for personal use since again, he doesn't need it.

I don't think you're getting me friend, so if you return with the same mis-understanding,
I'll have to let this discussion go,
since I don't indulge circles anymore for the sake of info.

Once more:

Merlyn fused the life-force of the Omniverse into crystals.

Who gives a hoot about the "crystals?"

The significance here is taking the actual Life-Force of All Reality (omniverse)
and meticulously boding that Life-Force with the crystals so that OTHERS
may be able to erase Realities. (namely the Dimensional Dvelopment Court & Roma)

That's Omniversal manipulation on all levels.

Fury was the ONLY existence in All Reality that was immune to Jaspers' warp.
On top of having durability above that of Abstracts, (withstanding reality implosions unscathed)
on top of (as a character) having the most effective adaptive ability to this day.(Marvel)

Fury was a plot-device to stop Jaspers.

No Fury = 616 MJJ is "God" of the Omniverse entire.

He remade Reality right? He remade it to normal proper functioning no?

So yea, basically he's a good guy.

I'm not interested in influencing anyone's opinion, or intransigence at kmc anymore,
my thing is to come into threads when characters I know well
are being demeaned, mis-represented or not given a fair or even an honest shake.

You can call it "appeal to plot," but the facts are undeniable.

Had there been no Fury, ... MJJ becomes "God" of Marvel (in-universe stories)

Twisted comics to sell ey? smile

So yea, "appealing to plot" is a choice-less avenue that must be taken here,
otherwise, it's Mad Jim Jaspers Comics, instead of Marvel.

Cobweb literally witnessed what Merlyn predicted.

Merlyn said, if JJ isn't stopped, then 'a new God of the Omniverse would play dice with matter.'

Cobweb peered into a relevant Future-Self of hers (her power/ability to do so)
in it, the Fury did not stop Jaspers, and the Omniverse was cancelled. (on panel)
The instances Mike was referring to, probably come from Fraction's recent Mighty Thor run . And that comment about "rogue writer" is spot on when it comes to people like Fraction and Bendis .

Endless Mike

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well, on panel (artistically depicted) and in the bios it's an Omniversal Nexus.

That's the same thing that made Havok, an omniversal "god" for a while,
when he was merged to the Swamp Thing's Omnversal Nexus.

You mean Man-Thing. Swamp Thing is DC. Also I thought the nexus of realities was something they tapped into, not something that was powered/created by the starlight citadel.

I thought the citadel was just one of many places it messed up.

You know that retcon means they are changing something so the new version overrides the old version, right?

Except to the Fury...

238 Jaspers was killed by Lord Mandragon using the CN, which you said was just a fraction of Merlyn's power.

But he still couldn't absorb the omniverse instantly.

And I was using that example to show that characters who are weaker than what you are claiming for Merlyn have comparable feats.

I don't remember the exact issue (Countdown was a while ago, and to be honest a bunch of it is best left forgotten), but Darkseid and the Monitor were playing chess with each other, each of the pieces was a statue of a different character who were all spread throughout the multiverse, and when they made their moves things would happen to the characters that corresponded with their pieces.

Okay, but could Merlyn do what the CN could do without using the crystals? Like just snap his fingers and do what Lord Mandragon did to universe 238? Because if not you could say that he just built the machine, he doesn't have the inherent power of the machine. Like if Iron Man or someone builds a weapon, that doesn't mean they can duplicate the power of the weapon with just the natural power of their bodies.

That was because he could adapt to it, Solar once fought someone who could adapt to any power but he defeated him anyway.

So wait, you think the likes of LT and TOAA couldn't have stopped him? Just because they weren't mentioned in the story doesn't mean they couldn't have kicked his ass if it came down to that. There are a lot of stories (i.e. Chaos War) with a big threat to the multiverse/omniverse and TOAA and LT don't show up, and everyone is worried that all reality is in danger, but that doesn't mean those entities are > LT and TOAA. More like LT and TOAA just didn't feel the need to interfere yet, or they had used their omniscience to foresee that MJJ would be defeated and thus didn't need to interfere.

Make a forum thread of LT vs. MJJ, I guarantee you everyone (well, everyone sane, which will be the vast majority of everyone) will say LT wins.

And you still didn't answer my question, why couldn't Solar do to him what the Fury did?

Yes but he's also done some morally questionable stuff. He's an interesting character.

I highly doubt that.

Yes but alternate futures are just one small part of the omniverse which includes all possible universes, multiverses, and timelines. So if she saw something that wasn't what actually happened, she was just seeing one possible future, which is by definition only an infinitesimal part of the omniverse. Or you could say that since she is not omniscient, like you would need to be to comprehend the entire omniverse at once, she only saw a part of it consumed and mistook it as being the whole thing, since it was everything she could conceive of, but the totality of the omniverse is beyond what she could conceive of.

Either way, saying that Fury > MJJ > TOAA > LT, as you seem to be implying, is nonsense.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Endless Mike

You mean Man-Thing. Swamp Thing is DC.
Also I thought the nexus of realities was something they tapped into,
not something that was powered/created by the starlight citadel.
My bad, right ... Man-Thing.

Starlight Citadel is an omniversal Nexus, so it has access to those energies for tapping.

Or had access, I don't know what's going on with this new story,
I have to read it for myself.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

I thought the citadel was just one of many places it messed up.
It ripped out of 616 when it was re-arranged into 58163,
crashed into Otherworld where the Starlight Citadel is located,
when it took down the ST, it simultaneously flipped all the realities connected to it. (omniverse)
Originally posted by Endless Mike

You know that retcon means they are changing something
so the new version overrides the old version, right?
Heh, Yea I knew that Mike. smile

If the ST (an omniversal Nexus) with defenses to explode universes,
is being ransacked by punks that shouldn't be able to,
that would mean imo, it's either PIS, or, the ST is not as potent as it used to be.
Which is a "change" in my book.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Except to the Fury...
That was the plot.

No Fury, no Marvel.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

238 Jaspers was killed by Lord Mandragon using the CN,
which you said was just a fraction of Merlyn's power.
Actually the CN was used on 238 Eternity.

I also explained why 238 JJ was affected.

That aside, I never said the CN was a "fraction" of Merlyn's power.

I said team Excalibur used a "fraction" of Merlyn's power
to reverse/rebuild a Multiversal collapse in progress.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

But he still couldn't absorb the omniverse instantly.
That's not the way his power works.

Yes, MJJ does not wake up "omniversal."

MJJ wakes up as "God."

Then "God's" power begins to flow outward in all directions,
and everything and anything it comes across, it over powers and controls completely.

Now, outside of THIS "God's" power ... you can be universal, multiversal even omniversal like Merlyn,
ain't gonna do ya any good.

Because withIN his warp, Jaspers' power was absolute.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

And I was using that example to show that characters who are weaker
than what you are claiming for Merlyn have comparable feats.
How can a character be "weaker" than Merlyn,
and be able to wtf manipulate the entire DC omniverse?

... geesh, they should be at-least equal.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

I don't remember the exact issue (Countdown was a while ago, and to be honest
a bunch of it is best left forgotten), but Darkseid and the Monitor were playing chess
with each other, each of the pieces was a statue of a different character who were
all spread throughout the multiverse, and when they made their moves things
would happen to the characters that corresponded with their pieces.
Cool. I would've enjoyed to feast my eyes.

btw. Merlyn also had Chessboards floating around him each representing a universe.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Okay, but could Merlyn do what the CN could do without using the crystals? Like
just snap his fingers and do what Lord Mandragon did to universe 238? Because if
not you could say that he just built the machine, he doesn't have the inherent power
of the machine. Like if Iron Man or someone builds a weapon, that doesn't mean
they can duplicate the power of the weapon with just the natural power of their bodies.
He created Otherworld (pan-dimensional actuality) from nothingness.

Otherworld is a Universe containing multiple Realities. (one of a kind)

If he also had the power to jack the actual Life-Force of the Omniverse,
and place its significance & durability in 4' crystals
that if you pop one you snuff out an entire Universe ...

... it would seem to me outright destruction of a Reality would be child's play for him.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

That was because he could adapt to it,
Solar once fought someone who could adapt to any power but he defeated him anyway.
That's in Solar's world.

In Marvel's world, it's a different story.

This is why cross-comapany battles don't work for me.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

So wait, you think the likes of LT and TOAA couldn't have stopped him? Just
because they weren't mentioned in the story doesn't mean they couldn't have
kicked his ass if it came down to that. There are a lot of stories (i.e. Chaos War) with
a big threat to the multiverse/omniverse and TOAA and LT don't show up, and
everyone is worried that all reality is in danger, but that doesn't mean those entities
are > LT and TOAA. More like LT and TOAA just didn't feel the need to interfere yet,
or they had used their omniscience to foresee that MJJ would be defeated and thus
didn't need to interfere.
I never said anything about TOAA.

If you know me, and I think you do, it's silly even to bring up TOAA against anyone.

On to the Living Tribunal.

IMO, cause I have no proof:

Could the LT stop MJJ?

I'd say yes.

NOT Imo, since this is a fact!

Would the LT stop MJJ?

No. ... MJJ does not represent an imbalance of power.

This is why Cobweb witnessed the Omniverse being cancelled by 616 Jaspers
in a possible future where he wasn't stopped by the Fury.

Reason:

MJJ's power engulfs but does not stack,
so this means he's a Reality warper who's power is consistently stagnant.

The LT can only directly interfere when the power source is first of the Prime Multiverse,
and second,
elevating the parameters of the power contained withIN the closed system of the prime Multiverse.

The LT can and has been involved in decisions concerning other Multiverses
and eventualities outside of space-time.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Make a forum thread of LT vs. MJJ, I guarantee you everyone
(well, everyone sane, which will be the vast majority of everyone) will say LT wins.
no expression

I never said even mentioned the LT, until you brought it up.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

And you still didn't answer my question, why couldn't Solar do to him what the Fury did?
Actually I did reply. I always reply to everything friend. Stay with me if you wanna debate.

Anyway, Solar isn't the Fury.

Again, Fury was the ONLY existence that was immune to Jaspers' warp.
THIS, coupled with durability surpassing Abstracts,
and THIS, plus the most effective adaptive ability ever seen.

And yet, another truth that isn't highlighted enough,
is that Jaspers was fine, until taken to "un-space"
while the Fury by that point was depleted near exhaustion.

That fight would've lasted a couple more panels
and Jaspers eventually wins with a big smile at 100% optimal efficiency.
He controls Reality, the dude can't tire or be really hurt.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Yes but he's also done some morally questionable stuff. He's an interesting character.
I think he's no joke. I seen the respect threads.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Endless Mike

I highly doubt that.
Opinions can doubted, not facts:

Matrix/Merlyn (Omniversal Guardian) states ... predicts with certainty!

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12056226_MJJ1.jpg

"The Omniverse shall fall into chaos,
and a new God will play dice with matter"

-------------------------------

Here's Cobweb witnessing what would've happened,
had Merlin had not interfered in the Fury's destiny by luring it into 616.

But before that really quickly ...

(she can do this because she's constantly psychically connected to her past/future selves)

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12056286_MJJ5.jpg

-------------------------------

Anyway, this is what happened if MJJ was not stopped by the Fury:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/12056231_MJJ2.jpg
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/12056282_MJJ4.jpg

No more Omniverse.

-------------------------------

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Yes but alternate futures are just one small part of the omniverse which includes
all possible universes, multiverses, and timelines. So if she saw something that
wasn't what actually happened, she was just seeing one possible future, which is
by definition only an infinitesimal part of the omniverse. Or you could say that since
she is not omniscient, like you would need to be to comprehend the entire
omniverse at once, she only saw a part of it consumed and mistook it as being the
whole thing, since it was everything she could conceive of, but the totality of the
omniverse is beyond what she could conceive of.
O .. k. ... This has nothing to do with Cobweb, her character and/or power.

Simple.

Cobweb is literally psychically connected to her Future-selves,
it's not a vision, it's actually an experience of the definite Future.

The ONLY reason it didn't happen, (MJJ omniverse take-over)
is because Merlyn interfered and manipulated the Fury to find its way to 616.

It was NOT in Fury's destiny to go to 616,
Merlyn was the culprit there.

But what Cobweb saw was supposed to happen, as everything she sees ALWAYS does.

My friend,
if you don't know about a character,
don't start assuming or naively theorizing about their make-up and abilities,
ask me, and I'll more than gladly give you all the info I got.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Either way, saying that Fury > MJJ > TOAA > LT,
as you seem to be implying, is nonsense.
It's even greater nonsense for you to assume I meant that, or even hinted at that.

I thought you knew me Mike? sad

You could've somehow mistaken me including the LT ... but TOAA? laughing out loud

Endless Mike

Originally posted by Mr Master
My bad, right ... Man-Thing.

Starlight Citadel is an omniversal Nexus, so it has access to those energies for tapping.

Or had access, I don't know what's going on with this new story,
I have to read it for myself.

Doesn't that just mean that it's one place where the energies connect to? Not that it generates them or anything.

So you're saying that if it hadn't hit the SC it wouldn't have spread to the rest of the omniverse?

It's in the recent Thor/Journey Into Mystery arc.

You can't use that as an excuse. If the Fury stopped him, than anyone/anything as powerful or more powerful than the Fury (like the Living Tribunal) could also have stopped him.

So if 238 MJJ was killed by the CN, and you say he is > Merlyn, doesn't that mean that the CN is also > Merlyn?

So you're saying not even Living Tribunal or TOAA could stop Jaspers Warp roll eyes (sarcastic)

The Darkseid fanboys will be happy to hear you say this laughing

Like I said, Countdown was not exactly a good story. I personally don't think it's as bad as some people make it out to be, but I would definitely recommend avoiding it unless you are just too curious. If you want a good summary of everything wrong with it, watch Linkara's review.

The recent Thor/JIM arc seemed to imply that Otherworld was only the size of the land area of the British Isles.

http://images.wikia.com/marveldatabase/images/6/6b/Otherworld.jpg

Yeah but was it shown how he did this? How long did it take him? Did he use some kind of technology to do it?

But has he ever actually done so on-panel?

...Then why do you post in the vs. forum?

You said nothing could stop MJJ except for the Fury, and if he had continued he would have consumed the omniverse and become God with a capital G, presumably meaning he would defeat and replace TOAA. Is that not what you meant?

You said only the Fury could stop him.

Not really sure I buy that. IIRC he said that he didn't stop Thanos when he had the IG because his ambitions were only to rule the 616 universe, but he stepped in to try to stop Adam Warlock when he had it because the latter was planning to try to conquer/upset the multiverse and beyond. If MJJ was collapsing the omniverse LT would be all over that shit.

Yes, but you said:

Fury was the ONLY existence in All Reality that was immune to Jaspers' warp.
On top of having durability above that of Abstracts, (withstanding reality implosions unscathed)
on top of (as a character) having the most effective adaptive ability to this day.(Marvel)

Fury was a plot-device to stop Jaspers.

No Fury = 616 MJJ is "God" of the Omniverse entire.

This implies that LT would not be immune to his powers, and could do nothing to stop him. Sorry if I am misunderstanding here.

Yes Solar isn't the Fury but he could still do what the Fury did. His feats of reality warping and manipulation of time/space tell me he could resist Jaspers' powers at least as well as the Fury could, and his cosmic awareness and power could let him know to nullify a universe and take MJJ there to kill him.

Endless Mike

Originally posted by Mr Master
Opinions can doubted, not facts:

Matrix/Merlyn (Omniversal Guardian) states ... predicts with certainty!

*snip*

"The Omniverse shall fall into chaos,
and a new God will play dice with matter"

-------------------------------

Here's Cobweb witnessing what would've happened,
had Merlin had not interfered in the Fury's destiny by luring it into 616.

But before that really quickly ...

(she can do this because she's constantly psychically connected to her past/future selves)

*snip*
-------------------------------

Anyway, this is what happened if MJJ was not stopped by the Fury:

*snip*

No more Omniverse.

Yes, I am familiar with all of these scans, I said I doubted it because if Fury hadn't stopped him, then LT or TOAA would. You agreed in your last post that LT and TOAA could both stop him, so what is there to argue about?

But like you said, that future didn't actually happen. So if she experienced it happening, it must have been an alternate future. It might originally have been the "true" future, but like you said, events were altered so it didn't happen, and instead became an alternate future. Either way it is not the totality of the omniverse, which includes all possible futures and timelines.

Also, since you want me to ask about the character: Is she omniscient and capable of comprehending things on a cosmic/abstract level? Because if not, you can't trust her 100% when she says the entire omniverse had fallen, because she would be unable to comprehend the entirety of the omniverse.

Not that I don't think MJJ was a threat to the omniverse, Merlyn (who can comprehend the omniverse) said he was and I believe him. I just think that there is no way he would have ever conquered the entire omniverse, because LT or TOAA would have stopped him before he got to that point.

Well that does seem to be what you are implying.

TOAA is God over the Marvel omniverse, and represents the Marvel company.

You were saying MJJ would become God over the Marvel Omniverse and it would be "Mad Jim Jaspers Comics" instead of Marvel Comics. That sure seems like you were saying he would replace TOAA.

celestialdemon

Man of Miracles should be able to as well.

guy222

indeed

The A

Mr Master

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Doesn't that just mean that it's one place where the energies connect to?
Not that it generates them or anything.
The energies flow through there, and thus can be harnessed.

Again, that's how Havok did his thing,
that's why these Nexuses are guarded, cause they can exploited.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

So you're saying that if it hadn't hit the SC
it wouldn't have spread to the rest of the omniverse?
Write Marvel a letter and ask.

I'm just telling you how the story went.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

It's in the recent Thor/Journey Into Mystery arc.
Thanx.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

You can't use that as an excuse. If the Fury stopped him, than
anyone/anything as powerful or more powerful than the Fury (like
the Living Tribunal) could also have stopped him.
In the Jaspers saga, Alan Moore's story,
nothing could stop Jaspers except for the Fury. (his personal plot-device)

What the LT was capable is against JJ is inconsequential,
since in the story he would've engulfed the Omniverse
and everything in it ...
but the plot device was written in so this wouldn't happen. (Fury)
Originally posted by Endless Mike

So if 238 MJJ was killed by the CN,
and you say he is > Merlyn,
doesn't that mean that the CN is also > Merlyn?
Since Merlyn wasn't/isn't intrinsically tied to the Life-Force of any reality,
no.

Unfortunately for 238 Jaspers, while his warp was just as powerful,
in terms of re-arranging reality,
he was susceptible to the nullification of the Reality he stood in.

Remember Mike, the CN (crystal cracker) attacks from withIN,
it erases the actual Life-Force of said Universe, from beyond space-time,
not even Eternity's spirit lingers unlike with the UN.
The UN also attacks from the outside instead, via a nullification sphere that expands.

The CN didn't have to penetrate Jaspers warp to attack the Reality he was in.

This move though, would not have worked on 616 JJ,
since it seems it would've had no affect on him or the reality he stood in.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

So you're saying not even Living Tribunal or TOAA could stop Jaspers Warp
So yea I'm not saying that.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

The Darkseid fanboys will be happy to hear you say this
I'm not talking about moving simple pieces on a chessboard.

I'm talking about absolute control of Omniverse's Life-Force.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Like I said, Countdown was not exactly a good story. I personally don't think it's as bad as some people make it out to be, but I would definitely recommend
avoiding it unless you are just too curious. If you want a good summary of
everything wrong with it, watch Linkara's review.
Already downloaded it.

I wanna see/read this for self, I also wanna no if there are stipulations.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

The recent Thor/JIM arc seemed to imply that Otherworld
was only the size of the land area of the British Isles.

http://images.wikia.com/marveldatabase/images/6/6b/Otherworld.jpg
I see them detailing parts of the realm, (on land)
but where do you read that that is the totality of Otherworld?

What about the Cosmos surrounding the land?
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Yeah but was it shown how he did this?
How long did it take him?
Did he use some kind of technology to do it?

He did it the only way possible, by using the power he was merged to. (Energy Matrix)

There's no visual of the feat, there's also no tech capable of this either,
we know he did it cause he was the one that gave the CN to Dimensional Development Court,
and he was the ONLY person (in those Moore runs)
with access to power to be able to do so.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

But has he ever actually done so on-panel?
He created Otherworld, and everything in it.

This includes the Starlight Citadel, CN and other tech he enjoys.

If you can create a thing, then you can destroy a thing.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

...Then why do you post in the vs. forum?
Well, if it's two Marvel cats I'll way in my opinion.

If it's cross-comapnay, then I'll step in (if I feel I need to)
for the purpose of info concerning the Marvel side.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

You said nothing could stop MJJ except for the Fury, and if he had continued he
would have consumed the omniverse and become God with a capital G,
presumably meaning he would defeat and replace TOAA. Is that not what you meant?
I couldn't have.

Because I've known for a quite a while that the TOAA is above "God" ...

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/13383241_OAA_above_IG.jpg
Originally posted by Endless Mike

You said only the Fury could stop him.
That's correct.

And I'm not changing my stance which simply pushes truth according to the story.

That aside, you seem to be trying to nip-pick my posts for inconsistencies.

You're gonna have to try harder, much harder.

So back topic:

Yea, I said (which you left out in the nit-icking)

IMO cause I have NO proof

LT could stop JJ.

NOW, with proof, On Panel, in story, in handbook,
... nothing but the Fury could stop Jaspers.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Not really sure I buy that. IIRC he said that he didn't stop Thanos when he had the IG because his ambitions were only to rule the 616 universe, but he stepped in
to try to stop Adam Warlock when he had it because the latter was planning to try to
conquer/upset the multiverse and beyond. If MJJ was collapsing the omniverse LT
would be all over that shit.
Again friend, I told ya, I'm not selling anything,
and I sure don't care anymore who's swayed or not by facts/truth and proof.

Also, you're wrong on your account of the Warlock case.

Warlock didn't want to conquer the universe let-alone the Multiverse,
in fact, Warlock just wanted didn't want to be bothered.

The LT interfered with Warlock cause Eternity asked him to,
NOT cause the LT decided to.

The LT realized that Warlock would soon cause an imbalance
due to his incapacity to harness the IG correctly. (mentally unfit to be GOD he said)

The 616 IG is not of the Multiverse btw,
it is an external/extra energy source added to Reality by the Infinity Being.

Two creations at the dawn of Time, Reality and the Infinity Gems placed in reality.

Also, where was the LT when Wanda tore the Omniverse to pieces? erm

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Yes, but you said:

This implies that LT would not be immune to his powers,
and could do nothing to stop him. Sorry if I am misunderstanding here.
Maybe he was, maybe not, I don't know.

I can only give an opinion, if I had to guess, I'd say the LT > JJ,
but then again, when it comes to uber Reality warpers,
it seems TOAA allows a lot of rope for them to play.

Look at Protege, HOM Wanda, Edifice Rex to name a few.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Yes Solar isn't the Fury but he could still do what the Fury did. His feats of reality
warping and manipulation of time/space tell me he could resist Jaspers' powers at
least as well as the Fury could, and his cosmic awareness and power could let him
know to nullify a universe and take MJJ there to kill him.
That's your unprovable opinion, and I respect it, but I completely disagree.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Yes, I am familiar with all of these scans, I said I doubted it because if Fury hadn't stopped him, then LT or TOAA would. You agreed in your last post that LT and TOAA could both stop him, so what is there to argue about?
"Argue about?"

I made my point but you continue to return.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

But like you said, that future didn't actually happen. So if she
experienced it happening, it must have been an alternate future. It
might originally have been the "true" future, but like you said,
events were altered so it didn't happen, and instead became an
alternate future. Either way it is not the totality of the omniverse,
which includes all possible futures and timelines.
Actually, it never happened at all because the time was never reached.

The Fury came to 616 and changed Jaspers destiny before said Time arrived.

Actually, there's only one Omniverse in Marvel
so if Jaspers engulfed the Omniverse as Cobweb witnessed,
then it was the totality of the Omniverse that would've been cancelled.

Just like Merlyn said it would happen.

Please, let's not try and twist facts to devalue the guy you're voting against.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Also, since you want me to ask about the character: Is she
omniscient and capable of comprehending things on a
cosmic/abstract level? Because if not, you can't trust her 100%
when she says the entire omniverse had fallen, because she would
be unable to comprehend the entirety of the omniverse.
This real world logic has no place here friend.

It's comics.

That's Cobweb's power, her only power.

To peer into definite futures since she's psychically connected to her future-selves.

That's it,
no need for spins with this "comprehension" tick you've completely made up.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Not that I don't think MJJ was a threat to the omniverse, Merlyn
(who can comprehend the omniverse) said he was and I
believe him.

I just think that there is no way he would have ever
conquered the entire omniverse, because LT or TOAA would have
stopped him before he got to that point.
I respect what you "think."

But since Wanda tore the Omniverse to pieces while simultaneously wtf remaking 616,
and the LT wasn't even mentioned,
I'm 100% certain that if Moore (TOAA) wanted Jaspers conquering the Omniverse,
then it would've happened.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Well that does seem to be what you are implying.

TOAA is God over the Marvel omniverse, and represents the Marvel company.

You were saying MJJ would become God over the Marvel Omniverse
and it would be "Mad Jim Jaspers Comics" instead of Marvel Comics.
That sure seems like you were saying he would replace TOAA.
TOAA are the representative avatars of the writers and artists.

It is they who make Jaspers, or any other characters,
as powerful or weak as they wish.

Batman-Prime

Originally posted by Mr Master

I couldn't have.

Because I've known for a quite a while that the TOAA is above "God" ...

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/13383241_OAA_above_IG.jpg

Actually... Adams says the One is even above Gods... not the one God. Marvel has a lot of Gods like Odin, Celestials are also called Spacegods. That would make far more sense if he meant that type of "Gods" and not the singular "God".

I don't want to interrupt you both but that one felt simply wrong.

Even if Adam Warlock would think of himself as God with that power, we all know better that he wasn't the God of the Multiverse and people tend to say a lot in comics once they get some power, CC, IG, THOTU.

Endless Mike

Originally posted by Mr Master
The energies flow through there, and thus can be harnessed.

Again, that's how Havok did his thing,
that's why these Nexuses are guarded, cause they can exploited.

But it's not the source of these energies.

Just trying to get an idea of what you are claiming here.

But this story doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's a part of the overall Marvel continuity, which includes characters like LT and TOAA. So when you are analyzing it you have to consider what role they might have to play if things went differently.

That has nothing to do with what I was asking. I was saying if you think 238 Jaspers > Merlyn, but one of Merlyn's devices was able to defeat him, how does that make sense?

Could have fooled me.

Well the pieces represent characters in different universes.

Oh boy. Prepare yourself for a cluster****, is all I'll say.

Well the Manchester Gods conquered it by simply conquering all the places shown on the land there.

I never said he didn't do it, I was asking for the specifics on how and how long it took him and such.

Yes but I am not exactly convinced of Otherworld's size. Could you post some scans showing it is universe sized or bigger?

You're missing out on a lot of fun...

That says he was above "gods" which presumably means the likes of Zeus, Odin, etc. TOAA is often referred to as simply "God" such as in the FF arc when he appeared as Jack Kirby.

Nip-pick? confused

So you're saying there's no proof TOAA could stop him either?

Well like I said he would do something that would affect the multiverse at large. And you're saying that none of the Eternities being threatened by MJJ would ask the LT to help?

Okay, what's your point?

She didn't destroy it, she just altered it. Presumably LT was okay with the alterations.

Maybe he was, maybe not, I don't know.

Protege was the only one of those that was able to actually challenge LT IIRC.

Why?

If your position is that the Fury was the only one who could beat MJJ within the context of the story, that doesn't mean anything because Solar doesn't exist within the context of the MJJ story.

Endless Mike

Originally posted by Mr Master
"Argue about?"

I made my point but you continue to return.

Sorry....

So if it never happened you can't say it was definitely going to happen.

I never claimed otherwise.

.

Completely made up? Characters can be wrong about things, you know. Anything a character says has to be evaluated through the filter of that character's perspective, whether they are known to be honest or dishonest, whether they would have a way of actually knowing what they said is true or not, how likely they are to be correct.

Now I'm not denying that MJJ had the potential to absorb the omniverse into his warp, I'm just saying that it never would have happened, because had the Fury not stopped him, LT or TOAA would have. So I'm not "devaluing" him at all.

I respect what you "think."

Like I said, she just altered it somewhat, it was still intact after she finished, not twisted and warped into an unrecognizable nightmare world controlled by a madman like what would have happened if Jaspers succeeded.

What kind of argument is this? Of course if a writer wants something to happen in their story it will happen (unless it gets vetoed by the editor or something), but that could be applied to anything in any fictional story ever.

You totally sidestepped my point here.

Mr Master

guy222

hey mr. m

how about the presence as well stick out tongue

Batman-Prime

Originally posted by Mr Master
no expression

Adam was referring to himself being judged by the LT
who is the representative of TOAA. (the one above even Gods)

The IG clearly was stated over and over again to make its wielder God,
heck, the LT himself asked Warlock, if this the type of God you wish to be?

So, Odin and the rest you mentioned have absolutely nothing to do with that scene,
especially since Odin and your group are insects to the IG,
and no where near the God-like status
to warrant the attentions of the LT let-alone TOAA.

So, it may feel wrong to ya, but those are the facts.

Above Gods such as himself, I wrote it too. And he wasn't the God, he was one of those who see themself as gods.
So each IG in each Universe makes it's wielder an God and not the replacement for the god. Such gods are irrelevant to a single God who is = TOAA.
So Warlock isn't the only one who thinks he is a god and everyone who gets something as powerful as the IG might think he is god. Warlock wasn't sure as hell talking about THE God. That's why he said Gods, plural.

As for the facts.

This was the dialogue:
He:
You said nothing could stop MJJ except for the Fury, and if he had continued he
would have consumed the omniverse and become God with a capital G,
presumably meaning he would defeat and replace TOAA. Is that not what you meant?

You:
I couldn't have.
Because I've known for a quite a while that the TOAA is above "God" ...

So if Mike talks about MJJ replacing the GOD with a capital G it's clear he means the supreme being.
Your reply implies that you think there is a God, like a supreme being and TOAA who is even above this God.
You "prove" was this scan" and even though out of the context it doesn't makes this claim a fact, as he was surely not referring to the God with a capital G but only to himself and would be gods who think they wield ultimate power.

Either you weren't clear enough or you are simply wrong^^.

But continue your dialogue with Mike. I'm curious how it develops.

The Merchant

He would have been God like Thanos was with the heart. TOAA never interferes in anything, except that time when he trolled Thanos. And whenever he is an avatar.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Actually... Adams says the One is even above Gods... not the one God. Marvel has a lot of Gods like Odin, Celestials are also called Spacegods. That would make far more sense if he meant that type of "Gods" and not the singular "God".

I don't want to interrupt you both but that one felt simply wrong.

Even if Adam Warlock would think of himself as God with that power, we all know better that he wasn't the God of the Multiverse and people tend to say a lot in comics once they get some power, CC, IG, THOTU.
Its not like Adam used the term "Gods" to mean the sort of deity(above all those other "gods" you mentioned) the IG makes its wielder, right ?
The term Supreme Being/God has been thrown about a lot . IMO MrMaster was simply giving an example of how the one true Supreme Being(TOAA) is above the wannabes like Alien Entity , Infinity Being , Sise-Neg etc. etc.

the Darkone

Captain Britian w/Excalibur and Amulet of power, can rewrite the whole marvel omniverse

Mr Master

And Merlyn created both of them too.

On Panel, Excalibur, alone, (with one stroke) erased "Jude"
an entity embodying 3 Concepts of an entire universe. (Death/Oblivion/Entropy)

Brian also remade an entire Timeline (beginning to end)
with a thought.

Mastermind (not X-men enemy) nearly re-aaranged the Omniverse with Excalibue/Amulet,
but of course, stories must end, so he was stopped before that via plot.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller

Its not like Adam used the term "Gods" to mean the sort of
deity(above all those other "gods" you mentioned) the IG makes its
wielder, right ?

The term Supreme Being/God has been thrown about a lot . IMO
MrMaster was simply giving an example of how the one true Supreme
Being(TOAA) is above the wannabes like Alien Entity , Infinity Being ,
Sise-Neg etc. etc.
yes

On top of the fact, that "mythological gods"
are "gods" in comparison with mortals/humans and what not,
but Skyfathers weren't even part of the IG affair,
and they weren't even mentioned or even hinted at during Warlock & the Infinity Watch #1,
which is what Warlock is referring to when he was JUDGED by the LT.

Also, only true ignorance would suggest that IG/Warlock
was categorizing Odin, Zeus or even Celestials as God-like as himself.

Especially when Warlock felt (& knew) that the hierarchy itself (including Eternity)
was beneath him, save for the LT.

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13406279_IG_W.jpg

------------------------------------------

Mike, I haven't forgotten you, I'll reply in a while to your responses and questions.

"Id"

Originally posted by the Darkone
Captain Britian w/Excalibur and Amulet of power, can rewrite the whole marvel omniverse

When has this happened?

Mr Master

Originally posted by "Id"

When has this happened?
This weapon and artifact belong to the "good guys"
so we're not going to see it happening for kicks.

But during the second run of the Excalibur series,
a story was dedicated to the Sword and Amulet,
and it was confirmed across the run, several sources that it's potential was that uber.

A cat named Mastermind, (who got his hands on said power)
messed up the Continuum,
and was going to remake the Omniverse,
but Excalibur destroyed him cause only the righteous may wield it.

So Brian (with a gesture) re-created the Timeline with a positive Future.

Roma called Excalibur: "The Hand of God"

"Id"

Originally posted by Mr Master
This weapon and artifact belong to the "good guys"
so we're not going to see it happening for kicks.

But during the second run of the Excalibur series,
a story was dedicated to the Sword and Amulet,
and it was confirmed across the run, several sources that it's potential was that uber.

A cat named Mastermind, (who got his hands on said power)
messed up the Continuum,
and was going to remake the Omniverse,
but Excalibur destroyed him cause only the righteous may wield it.

So Brian (with a gesture) re-created the Timeline with a positive Future.

Roma called Excalibur: "The Hand of God"

So no. We don't have hard evidence to back up its claim.

Mr Master

Hey ID, ... true, it hasn't actually happened,
but the 4 book run was literally based on Excalibur's power.
It was dialogued by several different characters including Roma
that Excalibur not only was the true weapon of the Omniversal guardian
but that it could "sunder the Omniverse" or "remake the Cosmos."

But again, it belongs to the good guys, so it's not going to just happen,
unless there is a need of course.

Brian did all he needed to do and did with a gesture.

That shows the ease Excalibur needed to erase/re-create an entire Timeline with a New Future.

Also, if that is truly what empowered Roma as Omniversal guardian,
let's not forget she stalemated for a while that omniversal CCU from the C-Engine Trilogy.

Just sayin.

"Id"

Claims that are not backed by hard evidence, are regarded as hyperbole.

guy222

synnar the demiurge

Mr Master

K .. this is my final response since the discussion has gone as far as it can.

Also, replies I find redundant will be responded with:

"Addressed"
Originally posted by Endless Mike

But it's not the source of these energies.
Doesn't have to be if you can harness the source of those energies from said location.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Just trying to get an idea of what you are claiming here.
I haven't made a claim yet,
except for my opinion on wether the LT stops JJ or not.

Everything else is just informative facts.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

But this story doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's a part of the overall Marvel continuity,
which includes characters like LT and TOAA. So when you are analyzing it you
have to consider what role they might have to play if things went differently.
TOAA is not a character constricted to or even belonging to the Omniverse.

You got a point concerning the LT.

What can I say,
in the original story and the 'return of Jaspers' in Die by the Sword,
he was unstoppable save for the Fury.

Now, imo, if the LT was allowed to stop Jaspers, I'm sure he could,
the LT can come as a representative power of TOAA like he did with Warlock.

My point was, that since Jaspers would simply take over (replacing reality with his)
the LT wouldn't interfere, so no one would stop him.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

That has nothing to do with what I was asking. I was saying if you think 238
Jaspers > Merlyn, but one of Merlyn's devices was able to defeat him, how does
that make sense?
... addressed.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Could have fooled me.
My kitty follows my laser light on the wall.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Well the pieces represent characters in different universes.
Addressed.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Oh boy. Prepare yourself for a cluster****, is all I'll say.
lol ... Woe is me.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Well the Manchester Gods conquered it by simply conquering all the places shown on the land there.
I'll look into it.

They probably conquered the "capitol" sorta-speak of Otherworld,
which is the Starlight Citadel and the Island it hovers over.

Also Mike, Otherworld contains several separate significant Worlds/Realms,
containing Skyfathers, (Celtic gods & others) Demons, (Netherworld) Magical beings, & strange races,
so it's literally impossible for Otherworld to have been converted into a piece of land.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

I never said he didn't do it,
I was asking for the specifics on how and how long it took him and such.
Oh I see. That was never made clear that I've come across,
although it's a lot of material, I've covered much across the years
but still got more to go.

It's also difficult because Merlyn was portrayed differently at certain times,
sometimes, although very powerful, he didn't seem "all-powerful" (early Britain titles)
but then in other stories same era, he's doing uber stuff.

But my friend, I've come to the understanding of Comic books,
that's the way it's always going to be for every character of great power
that has to meddle with humanoids, in order to keep the story not only interesting,
but to be able to make a story at all.

Otherwise, it's "god-like X" pops up, waves his/her hand, ... end of story.

That ... doesn't work.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Yes but I am not exactly convinced of Otherworld's size.
Could you post some scans showing it is universe sized or bigger?
I'll throw in some back in the day joints for foundation,
then an up to date beauty that substantiates the prior.

"Entrance to another Dimension"

When he enters Otherworld, he takes off into the night sky and you see a Cosmos:

--------------------------------------------------

Here Merlyn prepares to consciously merge with Otherworld:

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/13408411_OtherW4.jpghttp://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13409149_OtherW5-.jpg

"Beyond the veil of Earthly Time & Space ... into the great Void"

"Become One with the great depths of Space"

--------------------------------------------------

Here Merlyn, after searching across his Eternity,
finds Brian (dead, in Astral form) "swept across the currents of Infinity"
heading for Otherwold's Conceptual pocket-realm of "Death." (Netherworld)

--------------------------------------------------

This is self explanatory:

"The universe unfolds before me."

"Reverberated through Eternity ... the Universe reels"

--------------------------------------------------

Cool, I hope that wasn't too much, but I wanted to be thorough,
here's something closer to our time:

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/13408434_OtherW10.jpg

"The Pan-Dimensional Realm of Otherworld"

--------------------------------------------------

Like I had said ... it's a Universe containing multi-realities. (one of a kind)

So we got ... "Infinity" .. "Eternity" ... "Universe" ... "pocket-realms" ... and artistically illustrated "Space."

Originally posted by Endless Mike

You're missing out on a lot of fun...
Not really. Cross-company debates (especially in my preferred genre)
usually end up in hostility, trolling, endless back & forth
and even sock accounts pop up for support,
or a mod will agree with his favorite poster and close the thread.

Bottom-line, companies have different standards and different absolutes,
this is why it doesn't mix well matching them up. (again, especially in my preferred genre)

Skyfather, herald, meta/heores and what not is ok I guess,
but when it comes to the Cosmics .. or powers that reach out into space-time ...nah.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

That says he was above "gods" which presumably means the likes of Zeus,
Odin, etc. TOAA is often referred to as simply "God" such as in the FF arc when he
appeared as Jack Kirby.
TOAA is referred to as "God" or "TOAA" or "the Almighty" or "the Supreme Power" ...
there's no such thing as "often" ... when you're referring to one incident.

TOAA (writer/artis Avatars) has appeared 5 times on panel,
and has been mentioned several times aside from that.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Nip-pick?
Originally posted by Endless Mike

So you're saying there's no proof TOAA could stop him either?
There you go.

Also, addressed.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Well like I said he would do something that would affect the multiverse at large.
And you're saying that none of the Eternities being threatened by MJJ would ask
the LT to help?
I can't know, I don't think anyone can.

Yes, no, it depends on TOAA, since it's TOAA that's manipulating JJ to do anything.

Although:

Eternity 616 was getting taken over and indeed ended up getting engulfed,
yet ... he made no attempts.

That aside:

Why didn't Eternities ask the LT for help when Wanda was tearing them all to pieces?

Anyway, this is silly.

Mike, in real world logic there's sense. You're using this logic & while it's sensible
it doesn't work here,
cause I'm using comic book logic.

Of course in hindsight can you alway say,

Why didn't this or that happen? ... Why didn't he just? ... Why?

My friend, every story doesn't conform to every other story,
there's always going to be inconsistencies, senseless outcomes,
pointless endeavors to achieve a task, disconnected historical data,
and most notably, inserted nonsense (pis) to end the story.

Our job is to filter out as best we can absurdities,
in order to arrive at a meaningful conclusion, or compromise.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Endless Mike

She didn't destroy it, she just altered it.
Presumably LT was okay with the alterations.

Maybe he was, maybe not, I don't know.
If you don't know, you shouldn't "presume" since that would imply probability.

And there is none.

Wanda wasn't replacing Eternity/Infinity like Thanos did,
Wanda "tore the Omniverse to pieces"
and it WAS "re-arranged" into un-balanced CHAOS!

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/13408517_ChaosW.jpg

This doesn't seem like something the LT should allow.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Protege was the only one of those that was able to actually challenge LT IIRC.
What I meant was, that Wanda, ER, the CCU from the C-Engine Trilogy,
the fraction of the IG power over at the Ultraverse, and a host of other incidents,
where countless UniverseS are being destroyed and/or affected negatively
and the Omniverse itself is at stake ... the LT hasn't shown.

But that's neither here nor there, the point was, that yes,
the LT is the representative power of TOAA,
so unless TOAA makes a story where the LT is not up to the task (like 1000 years from now with Protege)
then that's TOAA's prerogative and there's nothing any of us can do about that.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Why?

If your position is that the Fury was the only one who could beat MJJ within the
context of the story, that doesn't mean anything because Solar doesn't exist within
the context of the MJJ story.
Addressed.

NotSoBad

Originally posted by "Id"
Claims that are not backed by hard evidence, are regarded as hyperbole. thumb up

Merlin/ Roma are walking hyperboles without combat feats. Without CN they are maybe trans tier ( and thats being generous).

Mr Master

Interesting, when Merlyn's never used the CN,
or even hinted at ever needing to use it.

stoned

Also, I suppose creating from scratch an Infinite Universe
made up of several Realities can be seen as trans-tier.

Already proven above.

Not too mention an Omniversal Nexus:

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/13409295_Roma.jpg

How about Roma (with a gesture)
plucking the dead from Past when they were alive,
and re-introducing them into the Present anew:

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/13409296_MJJ-Roma.jpg

Better yet,
how about Roma telepathically manipulating everyone,
in every Universe in the Omniverse close to the Tower Nexus:

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/13409297_MJJ-Roma2.jpg

Oh shiat! ... Roma's packing Omniversal Telepathy ...

The "trans-tier" league has a new champion.

-------------------------------------------

Anyway, I'm not going to entertain this, but I wanted to just add that.

Have a great weekend yall! smile

The Merchant

LT probbaly didn't do anything to Jaspers because he saw it as the next top dog taking over, similar to when he told Eternity that Thanos taking him down was natural.

Endless Mike

Originally posted by Mr Master
Doesn't have to be if you can harness the source of those energies from said location.p

Okay, but if Man-Thing and Havok could do so, doesn't that mean that basically anyone could? Such as Surtur and his servants?

Well even though he represents the Marvel company and the writers and editors, he still exists as a fictional character that appears within Marvel comic storylines.

I disagree on that latter point, I think replacing reality with his own version would be something the LT and his boss would not approve of. But my point was that LT could stop MJJ based on LT having the feats and showings that indicate he is powerful enough to stop him. So you can say the same thing for other characters, even if they are not Marvel characters.

I must have missed that then.

Well the story indicated that they were all conquered.

Well yes, but you have to keep in mind that by that same logic, you can't use Character A's absolute best feats ever, and then say that since Character B beat Character A in one instance, then Character B is stronger than all of those feats. For example you could say something like:

- Punisher beat Daredevil
- Daredevil beat Spider-Man
- Spider-Man beat Doctor Doom
- Doctor Doom beat the Beyonder

Therefore Punisher beats the Beyonder.

Yes, that's an extreme example, but you get the idea.

Well that does seem to prove your point. Although it's possible that stuff has been retconned by the recent Everything Burns arc. Not really sure about that.

But you get gems like the Flash dropping the omniverse on people's domepieces laughing

Well I was saying that when you referred to God in Marvel with a capital G, as in the one supreme God, you were talking about TOAA, but you said you weren't.

That's what I'm doing, in order to make sense of the MJJ story in the context of the wider Marvel cosmic heirarchy, it makes sense that if the Fury hadn't stopped him, LT would have.

Yes but in the end the overall changes were minimal, LT probably saw this with his omniscience/precognition so didn't interfere. Whereas in the case with Adam Warlock, he saw that something seriously bad was going to happen if he didn't do anything, so he stepped in. The same could be true for MJJ and the Fury, but what I'm saying is if things were different and the Fury didn't stop him, then LT would.

Is that last one even canon?

NemeBro

Originally posted by NotSoBad
thumb up

Merlin/ Roma are walking hyperboles without combat feats. Without CN they are maybe trans tier ( and thats being generous). Didn't Merlyn directly override Death when he brought back a deceased Captain Britain (And IIRC improved him)?

Colossus-Big C

Originally posted by NemeBro
Didn't Merlyn directly override Death when he brought back a deceased Captain Britain (And IIRC improved him)? correct.

Merlyn is an omniversal level being in power.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by NemeBro
Didn't Merlyn directly override Death when he brought back a deceased Captain Britain (And IIRC improved him)?
IIRC , then people with strong healing factors like She-Hulk and Deadpool have been able to override Death .

Astner

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Deadpool have been able to override Death .
Wasn't it Thanos who made Deadpool immortal, due to jealousy?

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by Astner
Wasn't it Thanos who made Deadpool immortal, due to jealousy?
I don't seem to recall properly , but wasn't Death already in the process of leaving him bbecause his healing factor prevented him from joining her , before Thanos meddled ?

Even if that example is suspect , we do have an on-panel occurrence of Loki restraining Death using his own magic .

There's also the instance of the In-Betweener summoning her , ordering her around like his cleaning lady , an act of disrespect which she apparently never forgot .

Endless Mike

Grandmaster also enslaved her. She jobs a lot.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Grandmaster also enslaved her. She jobs a lot.
Sometimes I think that Marvel hates its cosmic characters , or simply doesn't give a damn about them .

Although , she did have her moment of glory in the cancerverse storyline .

NotSoBad

Originally posted by Mr Master
Interesting, when Merlyn's never used the CN,
or even hinted at ever needing to use it.

stoned

Also, I suppose creating from scratch an Infinite Universe
made up of several Realities can be seen as trans-tier.

Already proven above.

Not too mention an Omniversal Nexus:

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/13409295_Roma.jpg

How about Roma (with a gesture)
plucking the dead from Past when they were alive,
and re-introducing them into the Present anew:

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/13409296_MJJ-Roma.jpg

Better yet,
how about Roma telepathically manipulating everyone,
in every Universe in the Omniverse close to the Tower Nexus:

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t/13409297_MJJ-Roma2.jpg

Oh shiat! ... Roma's packing Omniversal Telepathy ...

The "trans-tier" league has a new champion.

-------------------------------------------

Anyway, I'm not going to entertain this, but I wanted to just add that.

Have a great weekend yall! smile

Boring

The same scans as always. I wait for " Beyonder was more powerful than real world people. He discovered us" uhuhu

Mr Master

Originally posted by NotSoBad

Boring

The same scans as always.

I wait for " Beyonder was more powerful than real world people.
He discovered us" uhuhu
Well then, I figured you'd let yourself be known sooner or later,
your hilarious post suggesting Warlock was referring to Odin types or
Celestials could have been perceived as innocent ignorance,
but then when you came out with idiotic gibberish like Merlyn & Roma are "walking hype" ...
which raised an eyebrow as to your intentions.

Now after I took your statement and unveiled the horse shit behind it,
you return with this poppycock which accuses me of using the same ol' scans,
when I've NEVER in my nearly 7 years with KMC have EVER presented that scene where Roma displays Omniversal Telepathy,
I've also NEVER presented the full page of Roma manipulating Time.

On top of that comedy, I've NEVER said,
"Beyonder was more powerful than real people" ... because Shooter said "He discovered Us"
Everyone who is true here knows I've said that when Shooter said that,
it could be taken as,
Beyonder was above Shooter's Avatar (fictional illustrated representative of writer/artist)

So, what is this ... your what ... 36 or 37th post in over 2 Years you joined KMC?

Yea, there's no doubt from the ass-nonsense you're spewing,
and now this direct OFF-Topic driveling attempt at lessening my credibility
by falsely twisting my words from other threads concerning Beyonder ...

... gives you away plainly.

Now Trolls, are more active than you,
although your comic book knowledge so far
could easily fall under the category of a Troll. (post to post without knowing shit)

But, it's the lack of posting that highlights the Socking!
So that, added to the fact that you're posting fallacies here,
further coupled with useless endeavors at demeaning another poster's name here
by bringing up Beyonder no expression

and then shamelessly Lying about the context behind the accusation.

Cool ... so whoever's Sock account you are, do your thing and fulfill your purpose,
but definitely welcome to my IGNORE list.

Socks that are used to support the prime account are bad enough,
but you're a pure Trolling Sock all in one.

Yea, yea return with a post packed with fiery words and personal attacks, laughing out loud

go ahead and say something clever.

Bust all the nuts you want doing this,
I won't care and I won't see it. HAHAHA!!

*******

Peace and love to all the true debaters.
We don't need this kind of garbage at KMC anymore friends,
let's work together to dis-spell these useless basement dwelling,
mommy *** sucking, hairy palmed, walking with their heads down at school losers.

I'm tired of these living wastes of space that come to our Forum
to give it a bad name.

Anyway, Reported for Trolling Socker ... I mean .. sucker.