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Who's is greater?

1.highest feat

2. On average

One of a weaker version of Hulk's strongest punches obliterated an asteroid twice as big as Earth.

I don't read Superman, but I don't know if he's surpassed that.

I think SM best punch shattered both time and space.

Come again? What did he do?

In that Hulk feat he was aided by the force of being propelled into orbit

I know, but he still punched an asteroid twice as large as Earth and killed it. Superman's punches have been aided by his flight. Same concept. Like when he flew into that Dark Matter Moon.

Flight is part of supermans power so its not a outside aid.

No, but it's still aid. As many of the big punches, the moon for example wouldn't have been possible to pull off without his flight.

So its still part of his power set. Taking his flight away hampers a lot of his punching feats,

Just once I'd like to see someone post the full version of that Hulk asteroid breaking scene from start to finish. Only seen and have the most hyper abridged panels of the ep, the scientist detecting it, then the scene of hulk in the midst of shattering it. No lead-up or explanation of how Hulk got outfitted, or warned of what the scientist saw, or got to launching point or anything.

Carver, perhaps you would be willing to supply that?

In the meantime, the following are perennial favorites that should be shared in a thread like this:



cliff shaker
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13786236

cardboard punch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl_5UwS57X8


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Source 1: DC Comics Presents #29, Volume 1 (scan)
Writer: Len Wein
Penciller: Jim Starlin
Date: January 1981
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/DC_Comics_Presents_Vol_1_29


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Source 2: Justice League Unlimited (YouTube clip)
Episode: "Destroyer"
Writer: Dwayne McDuffie
Director: Joaquim dos Santos
U.S. AirDate: May 13, 2006
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Justice_League_episodes

Originally posted by Nihilist
So its still part of his power set. Taking his flight away hampers a lot of his punching feats,

That's the point I'm making. Taking away Clark's flight takes away a lot of his feats. Taking that feat from Hulk by saying he had help in the form of propulsion means you do the same for Superman, as he has help in the form of propulsion. Self propulsion or not, he wouldn't have been able to pull a lot of that off without being able to fly.

Argue all you want, this thread is about they've done under their own powers without any outside aid whatsoever.

No it's not. You didn't specify that. You just said highest feats and on average. So the asteroid buster counts.

There's also the one where Hulk punched a hole through time or through dimensions, I can't remember which.

Originally posted by KingD19
That's the point I'm making. Taking away Clark's flight takes away a lot of his feats. Taking that feat from Hulk by saying he had help in the form of propulsion means you do the same for Superman, as he has help in the form of propulsion. Self propulsion or not, he wouldn't have been able to pull a lot of that off without being able to fly.



On a related note, this is why, no matter how powerful he gets, you've never seen Hulk move a planet, and likely never will.

Note, as a counterpoint, without what we consider "true" comic book flight, how hokey you need to make a scene for a non-flier to perform a feat involving the truly "big" stuff:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13842190

That "invisible" jet is horribly drawn, and yeah. Can't move a planet while you're standing on it.

Originally posted by KingD19
No it's not. You didn't specify that. You just said highest feats and on average. So the asteroid buster counts.

There's also the one where Hulk punched a hole through time or through dimensions, I can't remember which. anyone with common sense would know it would be about what they did under their OWN power, hell standard vs fights come under the same stipulation.

Fact is He needed to be shot in air like that otherwise he would of just jumped.

you guys really think hulk can destroy the asteroid without his strength?

Originally posted by dynamix
you guys really think hulk can destroy the asteroid without his strength? its not a question of strength, more to do with the extra force behind him having been propelled such a great distance

How much did it aid him? To what extent we don't know, but it certain I did aid him in some way

Originally posted by KingD19
I know, but he still punched an asteroid twice as large as Earth and killed it. Superman's punches have been aided by his flight. Same concept. Like when he flew into that Dark Matter Moon.

It isn't the same thing. First, you would have to prove that Superman's flight gives him any more assistance than say his shoulder, his back or his leg when he throws a punch.

Hulk had outside help; Superman throws those punches under his own power.

@Blue

Don't have time to post all of it, at work but Hulk said he had a LITTLE help from the springs that wad created to help him spring out of Earth orbit. A LITTLE bit of help and he destroyed an object twice the size of Earth. So basically, without the help, since he only received just a LITTLE bit of help, with the propellers, he would have laid waste to Earth under his own power.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c324/Hulk3389/MCP-52-30.jpg

The propellers were used to get him out of orbit, his strength destroyed the asteroid.

Wow... You sure do like to reach.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Wow... You sure do like to reach.

Growing up his parent told him "nothing is beyond your reach"
Not even they could have predicted how far their baby Carver would actually reach

Actually he seemed to fly very fast at this asteroid. With greater speed the mass becomes more relevant. Hulk was just a tough Bullet.

Anyway, by feats Superman wins.

So we agree Hulk was aided in the instance.

Another Hulk feats?

Originally posted by Nihilist
Another Hulk feats?

KOing Thor. Nobody has that kind of power!

If Hulk was simply fired at the asteroid it wouldn't have been destroyed. He jumped into space with the springs negating his gravity and smashed it to pieces.

Originally posted by Nihilist
So we agree Hulk was aided in the instance.

Another Hulk feats?

http://static3.fjcdn.com/comments/ not+sure+of+the+comic+but+here+is+the+pic+_a01ce60
1c98efc3f3ad5f5555fa2278c.jpg
Impressive since this was PC Superman.

On a more serious sidenote. I think the punch that broke Onslaughts armor was nice.

Originally posted by Nihilist
Who's is greater?

1.highest feat

2. On average Off the top of my head, there was Hulk's asteroid punch and Superman's dark moon punch.

If I had to guess, Hulk would have the higher average showings just because he's the Hulk, and smashing is his thing. But comics hardly ever show punches from high end characters doing what they are "supposed" to do.

^Hulk can't fly and his adventures aren't regularly in Space. Else I'm sure he would have some Planet smashing feats, similar to his amped and shared Dark Dimension feat.
The same just to a lesser degree is true for Superman. If High Heralds would walk the earth throwing planet shattering punches left and right, there wouldn't be much left to read about .

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
^Hulk can't fly and his adventures aren't regularly in Space. Else I'm sure he would have some Planet smashing feats, similar to his amped and shared Dark Dimension feat.
The same just to a lesser degree is true for Superman. If High Heralds would walk the earth throwing planet shattering punches left and right, there wouldn't be much left to read about . Why not? He threw moon shattering punches at Black Adam, Konvict, Infinity Man, etc,
Superman throws these casually in fights against foes that can survive them, and nothing suggests its his upper limit.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
^Hulk can't fly See, this is why we keep you around. Your astute observations are uncanny. ka-dur

Originally posted by KingD19
I know, but he still punched an asteroid twice as large as Earth and killed it. Superman's punches have been aided by his flight. Same concept. Like when he flew into that Dark Matter Moon. It was a very brittle, weak asteroid. Fact.

Hull = Nulk + Nul?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Hull = Nulk + Nul?

Originally posted by Juntai
Why not? He threw moon shattering punches at Black Adam, Konvict, Infinity Man, etc,
Superman throws these casually in fights against foes that can survive them, and nothing suggests its his upper limit.

Superman never misses with those punches, Hulk is an angry child that hits the ground when frustrated. ^^ And maybe it's a little exaggerated on supes part^^.

Originally posted by Badabing
See, this is why we keep you around. Your astute observations are uncanny. ka-dur

I just wanted to be sure you still know this, old lizard. I know that small brain of yours doesn't works so well in your old days.

vin

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Superman never misses with those punches, Hulk is an angry child that hits the ground when frustrated. ^^ And maybe it's a little exaggerated on supes part^^.



I just wanted to be sure you still know this, old lizard. I know that small brain of yours doesn't works so well in your old days.

vin Specism will not be tolerated! durhulk

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
And maybe it's a little exaggerated on supes part^^.
vin Given that we've seen Superman punch apart moons and move them, he has no need to exaggerate the same issue over and over again in the span of a couple years. It's more likely the writers reminding the reader of Superman's striking power.

Originally posted by Juntai
Why not? He threw moon shattering punches at Black Adam, Konvict, Infinity Man, etc,
Superman throws these casually in fights against foes that can survive them, and nothing suggests its his upper limit. then hulk throws one and obliterates a nearby planet on-panel

Originally posted by Juntai
Given that we've seen Superman punch apart moons and move them, he has no need to exaggerate the same issue over and over again in the span of a couple years. It's more likely the writers reminding the reader of Superman's striking power.

I argue against Superman, wtf, am I here in bizzarro world?

Anyway. So you think Superman throws Moonshatterin punches carelessly? What about all the other fights where he doesn't tells us how strong he hits, also planet shattering? You think Hulk can't hit as hard as supes?

On average, they're about equal.

Superman's high end punches tend to do stuff like mess up reality/space whatever. Hulk's cause ridiculous collateral damage (though he has also punched time and shit though, too).

both characters are able to break/lift whatever they set out to break/lift (with few exceptions), however both of these guys hold back on people so....

Originally posted by psycho gundam
both characters are able to break/lift whatever they set out to break/lift (with few exceptions), however both of these guys hold back on people so....



They pretty much set the standard for raw physical strength.

1. Superman
2. The strongest one there is.

Going by fts, both punch harder than Thanos.

^ nice

Originally posted by carver9
Going by fts, both punch harder than Thanos.



As for the Asteroid lowballing feat, I'd like to see a man strapped in a rocket punching a semi-truck moving at tremendous speed.

Originally posted by Igniz


As for the Asteroid lowballing feat, I'd like to see a man strapped in a rocket punching a semi-truck moving at tremendous speed.
Its akin to a bullet through a watermelon.

Originally posted by carver9
Going by fts, both punch harder than Thanos. Butthurt and reported for baiting and trolling

Guys keep it in control.

Carver Thanos is not in this thread so stay on topic.

Originally posted by Newjak
Guys keep it in control.

Carver Thanos is not in this thread so stay on topic. exactly, the thread maker would never do that unless it was a sure thing

Originally posted by abhilegend
Its akin to a bullet through a watermelon. only one of those "bullets went through a watermelon"

Originally posted by psycho gundam
exactly, the thread maker would never do that unless it was a sure thing

only one of those "bullets went through a watermelon"
Yeah, and that's why it was unharmed. Surfer while highly amped got nearly killed busting a still moon.

grey hulk w/jetpack > superman and silver surfer

Originally posted by psycho gundam
grey hulk w/jetpack > superman and silver surfer
Funny, merged hulk shit his pants at the thought of going near that amped surfer.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
exactly, the thread maker would never do that unless it was a sure thing

reported for trollling

Hulk still trumps as he can do it based on feats with or without flight assistance. Hulk was a threat to the entire US seaboard based on footsteps alone.

Superman has NO standing feats that trumps Hulks period.

Superman has MORE high end ridiculous punching feats than the Hulk. It's funny whenever people try to argue for the Hulk's punching power, they really have to focus on this ONE FEAT from so long ago. And Superman's absolute best ones are well beyond the Hulk's. The asteroid feat, as stated, involved outside assistance, so there are better feats one could point out for the Hulk if his backers in this thread actually owned any of his comics (one-shotting Thor is more impressive than destroying a planet anyway). I also think Superman holds back A LOT more than the Hulk.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Superman has MORE high end ridiculous punching feats than the Hulk. It's funny whenever people try to argue for the Hulk's punching power, they really have to focus on this ONE FEAT from so long ago. And Superman's absolute best ones are well beyond the Hulk's. The asteroid feat, as stated, involved outside assistance, so there are better feats one could point out for the Hulk if his backers in this thread actually owned any of his comics (one-shotting Thor is more impressive than destroying a planet anyway). I also think Superman holds back A LOT more than the Hulk.

even the most core Superman fan didn't say this.

Originally posted by carver9
even the most core Superman fan didn't say this.

lawl.

There the same,
Although if hulk had flight he would punch much harder.

Take that grey hulk astroid feat for example, Imagine WBH with flight punching someone at ftl. He would probably bust the solar system

No.

Originally posted by -Pr-
No. so flight wont increase his punch damage?
FTL flight

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
so flight wont increase his punch damage?
FTL flight

No more than it increases Superman's.

Originally posted by -Pr-
No more than it increases Superman's. what does hulk have to do with superman?

There different characters it doesnt work like that

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
if hulk had flight he would punch much harder.

Take that grey hulk astroid feat for example, Imagine WBH with flight punching someone at ftl. He would probably bust the solar system

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
There the same,
Although if hulk had flight he would punch much harder.

Take that grey hulk astroid feat for example, Imagine WBH with flight punching someone at ftl. He would probably bust the solar system

I like this guy.

There is nothing particularly wrong with what Colossus-Big C said, to be perfectly blunt.

While I feel like he is not correct in his estimation of the damage the punch would do, flight at a level faster than what he could jump would of course increase the force of his punch.

Originally posted by NemeBro
There is nothing particularly wrong with what Colossus-Big C said, to be perfectly blunt.

While I feel like he is not correct in his estimation of the damage the punch would do, flight at a level faster than what he could jump would of course increase the force of his punch.

Yep. It just won't help him with lifting etc.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Yep. It just won't help him with lifting etc. lifting strength plus flight

I think it would, how much can a character lift using pure flight alone?

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
lifting strength plus flight

It would

You'd have to prove that flight in and of itself increases his strength.

Not velocity or momentum, but flight itself, and there's no proof that it does.

Originally posted by carver9
Going by fts, both punch harder than Thanos.

Also, since then, Hulks HF has gone up, but his durability has gone down.

Giving him FTL flight will smear him across the asteroid.

You're gay if you think Superman punches harder.

Originally posted by -Pr-
You'd have to prove that flight in and of itself increases his strength.

Not velocity or momentum, but flight itself, and there's no proof that it does. you really think superman pulling earth had nothing to do with flight? he's in orbit using his thrust to substitute for leverage... pretty simple

Originally posted by psycho gundam
you really think superman pulling earth had nothing to do with flight? he's in orbit using his thrust to substitute for leverage... pretty simple

Leverage isn't the same as strength, though.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Its akin to a bullet through a watermelon.

My post was more akin to a person.No one would agree to be a human ballistic in order to destroy an object moving at tremendous speed unless said person was confident that he will be able to destroy said object with a punch.Man in a rocket or man shot in a canon vs a speeding semitruck=a man being a bloody smear in front of a semitruck because he isn't durable or strong enough to punch a semitruck.So even if Hulk was aided, he would still need to be durable and strong enough to punch an asteroid twice the size of the earth.Which Hulk accomplished BTW.

Originally posted by -Pr-
You'd have to prove that flight in and of itself increases his strength.

Not velocity or momentum, but flight itself, and there's no proof that it does.

Without Flight, Superman would be dangling in space the way the Hulk did at one time.However I would say that Superman's feats of moving objects in space involves more powers than just one.I would say strength,speed,durability and flight.Of all this 4, flight would be the most important.

Originally posted by Igniz
Without Flight, Superman would be dangling in space the way the Hulk did at one time.However I would say that Superman's feats of moving objects in space involves more powers than just one.I would say strength,speed,durability and flight.Of all this 4, flight would be the most important.

Pretty much.

Superman CAN amp his punches with flight. His flight has been proven to provide forward force (like moving planets) and carrying heavy things. And since he doesn't use flight when lifting things while standing on the ground we can say that flight can only aide and amp Superman when he is carrying or moving things in flight.

But since flight is part of Superman's power set then for all practical purposes he can use it to amp his punches in any fight. So it's irrelevant and moot to the discussion whether flight amps his punches or not. Thor can use Mjolnir when he fights, it amps his strikes. So what?

As far as this thread goes, on average, Superman probably punches a little harder than Hulk. But at their best (no sun amp) WBH probably wins, unless you want to use time-space shit (I don't).

Pure strength, I will give it to Hulk any day of the week. Anything outside of this is pretty much even and I'm referring to the average Superman and the average Hulk.

Originally posted by carver9
Pure strength, I will give it to Hulk any day of the week. Anything outside of this is pretty much even and I'm referring to the average Superman and the average Hulk. Pure strength is irrelevant since Superman has the greater lifting feats and faster movement speeds which translates to harder punches.
On average Superman will physically decimate characters like Namor or Thing. Yet on average Hulk doesn't. Don't get me wrong, Hulk at peak would decimate those characters too. But we are speaking of averages. So by pure strength or flight Superman is above Hulk on average but both at their best is a different story.

Originally posted by h1a8
Pure strength is irrelevant since Superman has the greater lifting feats and faster movement speeds which translates to harder punches.
On average Superman will physically decimate characters like Namor or Thing. Yet on average Hulk doesn't. Don't get me wrong, Hulk at peak would decimate those characters too. But we are speaking of averages. So by pure strength or flight Superman is above Hulk on average but both at their best is a different story.

On average Hulk would destroy Kalibak Nd beat people like Despero, Konvikt, and the General. This doesn't prove anything when debating for these characters. Pure strength fts that doesn't require anything else outside of lifting, I would give it to Hulk.

Originally posted by carver9
On average Hulk would destroy Kalibak Nd beat people like Despero, Konvikt, and the General. This doesn't prove anything when debating for these characters. Pure strength fts that doesn't require anything else outside of lifting, I would give it to Hulk. I disagree, those guys are more powerful than many of the beings that have given Hulk fits throughout his career. Kalibak and General are not as powerful as Despero and Konvikt though

http://www.cncecke.de/forum/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

Seeing you both exchange posts is pure gold.

fool's gold

Originally posted by Igniz
Without Flight, Superman would be dangling in space the way the Hulk did at one time.However I would say that Superman's feats of moving objects in space involves more powers than just one.I would say strength,speed,durability and flight.Of all this 4, flight would be the most important.

If I didn't have legs I'd have to use my arms to pull me around.

Originally posted by h1a8
Superman CAN amp his punches with flight. His flight has been proven to provide forward force (like moving planets) and carrying heavy things. And since he doesn't use flight when lifting things while standing on the ground we can say that flight can only aide and amp Superman when he is carrying or moving things in flight.

But since flight is part of Superman's power set then for all practical purposes he can use it to amp his punches in any fight. So it's irrelevant and moot to the discussion whether flight amps his punches or not. Thor can use Mjolnir when he fights, it amps his strikes. So what?

As far as this thread goes, on average, Superman probably punches a little harder than Hulk. But at their best (no sun amp) WBH probably wins, unless you want to use time-space shit (I don't).

He can amp his punches by increasing his speed. Simply hovering alone wouldn't do it.

Originally posted by carver9
Pure strength, I will give it to Hulk any day of the week. Anything outside of this is pretty much even and I'm referring to the average Superman and the average Hulk.

And you'd be wrong.

Originally posted by carver9
On average Hulk would destroy Kalibak Nd beat people like Despero, Konvikt, and the General. This doesn't prove anything when debating for these characters. Pure strength fts that doesn't require anything else outside of lifting, I would give it to Hulk.

Nope.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
fool's gold

Originally posted by -Pr-


He can amp his punches by increasing his speed. Simply hovering alone wouldn't do it.


True, I was referring to punching while flying forward and not while hovering.

Originally posted by h1a8
True, I was referring to punching while flying forward and not while hovering.

That's something anyon can do, though. Just substitute running for flyinng.

Originally posted by h1a8

On average Superman will physically decimate characters like Namor or Thing.

So on average Supes would physically beat the thing or Namor 1/10 times? No wonder he's a chump. I kid I kid.

Originally posted by -Pr-
That's something anyon can do, though. Just substitute running for flyinng. I'm not sure. I have to think about it.

For example, let Superman hover next to a tank where he has both his hands on the tank while his arms are bent to push. Superman can easily push a tank forward with flight only while keeping his arms bent (not using his arm muscles at all). Now if Superman pushed the tank again with flight but ALSO pushed with his arms at the same time (straightening them in the push) then it would be clearly with more force than the former.

I think you are referring to building up extra momentum from a head start distance when I'm referring to punching something at a dead start (from up close). Having flight push you forward while punching provides an extra forward force, not just extra momentum. It's like you throwing a punch at someone while I from behind push you forward with my force.

Hmmmm.

Can the Flash replicate what Superman does? Say if you had a massive weight...500tons or so....I highly doubt that the Flash could push it along as easily as Superman. Or at least, it has never been depicted to that extent.

And seeing as both their thrusts (oo er, missus!) are near enough equal (as seen by their races), it must be the power of Supes' arms which enable him to do those feats of strength.

Or am I being stupid?

Not stupid, you are just going "over" the point.

Originally posted by h1a8
I'm not sure. I have to think about it.

For example, let Superman hover next to a tank where he has both his hands on the tank while his arms are bent to push. Superman can easily push a tank forward with flight only while keeping his arms bent (not using his arm muscles at all). Now if Superman pushed the tank again with flight but ALSO pushed with his arms at the same time (straightening them in the push) then it would be clearly with more force than the former.

I think you are referring to building up extra momentum from a head start distance when I'm referring to punching something at a dead start (from up close). Having flight push you forward while punching provides an extra forward force, not just extra momentum. It's like you throwing a punch at someone while I from behind push you forward with my force.

If Superman is hovering, but otherwise motionless, why would we believe that his flight affords him anything his back or legs wouldn't were he standing on the ground?

Originally posted by carver9
Not stupid, you are just going "over" the point.

Copout answer.

Originally posted by h1a8
I'm not sure. I have to think about it.

For example, let Superman hover next to a tank where he has both his hands on the tank while his arms are bent to push. Superman can easily push a tank forward with flight only while keeping his arms bent (not using his arm muscles at all). Now if Superman pushed the tank again with flight but ALSO pushed with his arms at the same time (straightening them in the push) then it would be clearly with more force than the former.

I think you are referring to building up extra momentum from a head start distance when I'm referring to punching something at a dead start (from up close). Having flight push you forward while punching provides an extra forward force, not just extra momentum. It's like you throwing a punch at someone while I from behind push you forward with my force.

You forget Newton's 3rd law of motion. So when he flies and pushes with his arms, the force has to be countered with his flight again. So in effect, everything he pushes with his arms needs the same amount of "flight-power".


vin

Originally posted by carver9
On average Hulk would destroy Kalibak Nd beat people like Despero, Konvikt, and the General. This doesn't prove anything when debating for these characters. Pure strength fts that doesn't require anything else outside of lifting, I would give it to Hulk.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris

1. Hulk
2. Probably split

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hmmmm.

Can the Flash replicate what Superman does? Say if you had a massive weight...500tons or so....I highly doubt that the Flash could push it along as easily as Superman. Or at least, it has never been depicted to that extent.

And seeing as both their thrusts are near enough equal (as seen by their races), it must be the power of Supes' arms which enable him to do those feats of strength.

Or am I being stupid?



No, you're just being yourself.

Very much like the Adkal of old.



"Those were for charity, Clark."


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13955966

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13955967

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Flash. Rebirth #3, Volume 1
Writer: Geoff Johns
Penciller: Ethan Van Sciver
Date: August 2009
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Flash:_Rebirth_Vol_1_3

i forget the picture exactly but i'm certain there is one of superman pulling a planet with a construct strapped around his torso. if that doesn't tell you guys anything, i don't know what will

Originally posted by -Pr-
you would have to prove that Superman's flight gives him any more assistance than say his shoulder, his back or his leg when he throws a punch.




Originally posted by -Pr-
If I didn't have legs I'd have to use my arms to pull me around...






mhmm

Originally posted by -Pr-
you would have to prove that Superman's flight gives him any more assistance than say his shoulder, his back or his leg when he throws a punch.




Originally posted by -Pr-
If I didn't have legs I'd have to use my arms to pull me around...




mhmm

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hmmmm.

Can the Flash replicate what Superman does? Say if you had a massive weight...500tons or so....I highly doubt that the Flash could push it along as easily as Superman. Or at least, it has never been depicted to that extent.

And seeing as both their thrusts are near enough equal (as seen by their races), it must be the power of Supes' arms which enable him to do those feats of strength.

Or am I being stupid?



See prior and present image attachments.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Adventures of Superman #436, Volume 1
Writers: John Byrne & Jerry Ordway
Penciller: Jerry Ordway
Date: January 1988
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Adventures_of_Superman_Vol_1_436

Hmm. I've forgotten: whenever using KMC as image host provider (IHP), one can never post 2 messages in a row with similar text and expect image attachments to come out right.
The most recent will replace the former and eliminate the first message entirely, not "stack" as a series is supposed to.


Anyway, the 2nd image should be the following, not what actually displays now when you click on it, which was actually the 3rd image in my series ...

So, what's supes best punching feat then?

Originally posted by Classic NES
So, what's supes best punching feat then? Breaking one of Kyle's constructs.

Originally posted by Mindset
Breaking one of Kyle's constructs.

. . .That's it?

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
You forget Newton's 3rd law of motion. So when he flies and pushes with his arms, the force has to be countered with his flight again. So in effect, everything he pushes with his arms needs the same amount of "flight-power".


vin I thought about the 3rd Law a while ago when it came to Superman's punching power while in flight but I dismissed it.


I once believed that Superman's flight most likely goes against the 3rd Law. Otherwise he wouldn't be able to pull a planet forward since he will need something to pull against. So I doubt that pushing with his arms affect the flight in any way since the flight is immune to the 3rd law. But I could be wrong since I don't completely understand the mechanics of his flight. All I know if that he seemingly has nothing to push against to propel him forward.

Maybe Superman's flight is pushing against some invisible unmovable source or nothing at all. If nothing at all, then bye bye 3rd law. For know, I'll except the invisible unmovable source in which the flight pushes off. That way we keep the 3rd law and Superman is providing 100% of his punch force due to his muscles, not flight.

I'll think about it some more though. Good one!

Originally posted by Igniz
Without Flight, Superman would be dangling in space the way the Hulk did at one time.However I would say that Superman's feats of moving objects in space involves more powers than just one.I would say strength,speed,durability and flight.Of all this 4, flight would be the most important.
Superman's top three feats of strength comes from without the aid of flight. It has been referenced directly after byrne era that he explicitly uses just strength to lift object too.

Abhi swoops in to save the day.

Originally posted by h1a8
I thought about the 3rd Law a while ago when it came to Superman's punching power while in flight but I dismissed it.


I once believed that Superman's flight most likely goes against the 3rd Law. Otherwise he wouldn't be able to pull a planet forward since he will need something to pull against. So I doubt that pushing with his arms affect the flight in any way since the flight is immune to the 3rd law. But I could be wrong since I don't completely understand the mechanics of his flight. All I know if that he seemingly has nothing to push against to propel him forward.

Maybe Superman's flight is pushing against some invisible unmovable source or nothing at all. If nothing at all, then bye bye 3rd law. For know, I'll except the invisible unmovable source in which the flight pushes off. That way we keep the 3rd law and Superman is providing 100% of his punch force due to his muscles, not flight.

I'll think about it some more though. Good one!

I think you cannot dismiss it because it's fundamental. And you don't have to.

Consider this possibility. Superman exhibits a force/power we call flight, he also exhibits a force/power we know as strength. They are two different powers and he needs energy for both. When Superman flies and lifts something or moves a planet he exhibit the necessary force with his strength alone, his power of flight however exhibits the same amount of force and thus works like a "standing" ground. His body provides in such a case the energy to lift/hold two planets or two times the weight. However, if he wants to push/move something over a distance he doesn't have to do it with strength, as he is already "lifting/holding" the mass, his power of flight has to exhibit the necessary force to "move" the ground he is standing at, metaphorically speaking. So in effect, his flight exhibits a force much greater then the weight of a planet, every time he is moving one. Which also means his body provides energy enough to move an much greater mass then the planet.

sneer

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
mhmm

Yeah, that was John Byrne, when his powers worked a completely different way.

Not valid, and has been stated so before.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
i forget the picture exactly but i'm certain there is one of superman pulling a planet with a construct strapped around his torso. if that doesn't tell you guys anything, i don't know what will

Yes, Superman pulling the Earth along with Hal.

Originally posted by Classic NES
. . .That's it? That's it?

Mother phucker, are you crazy?

Somebody hold me back.

Originally posted by Mindset
Somebody hold me back.

No. His ass is yours.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Yeah, that was John Byrne, when his powers worked a completely different way.

Not valid, and has been stated so before.



Would appreciate seeing that statement, and the evidence that supports it.

For I distinctly remember having the following exchange with you:





you're essentially talking about different characters over the course of the years, P.R.

John Byrne Superman, for instance, is from a Krypton where, apparently, there was a genetic failsafe in the population. Leave Krypton and you die.

Would it be possible to have any other Kryptonian from such a place?

The presence of other Kryptonians means that you had to drastically change the rules of how Superman and related beings operate.


Wonder Woman? Her hands are bleeding from her own rope in that scan Delta shows, merely from trying to resist the force of something that cannot so much as un-moor a signpost.
Can there be any relation between that woman and the one that we're shown in JLA several years later pulling the entire planet EARTH back into orbit?

There are many other examples like that, exposing inconsistencies that can't really be used to support the idea that character x in 1982 is character x in 1992 is character x in 2002 is character x in 2012.

But these characters are fairly stable for more limited periods, usually defined by what creative teams depict as normalcy for that era.


More on this later.








http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=525118&pagenumber=39

Yes, I know my own posts. And I know that Superman's powers have shifted over the last twenty odd years even when he's been the same guy. From John Byrne "my powers work by willpower" Superman, to Blue and Red, to T-VO, and then to the last showings of the pre-reboot one.

It's the same man with the same experiences, but not the same powers. And mods had ruled on this quite a while ago, too.

John Byrne's Superman's powers work differently to pre-reboot Johns/McDuffie/Busiek/Loeb Superman. It's just how it is.

if you need more information, I suggest reading The John Byrne run on Superman; they're pretty blatant about how his powers work, which differs quite a bit from what came later.

Originally posted by -Pr-

I suggest reading The John Byrne run on Superman; they're pretty blatant about how his powers work, which differs quite a bit from what came later.



I think that would only make the problem worse, assuming the following is Byrne from the artwork (biensalsa shared this so I don't know the issue number)

Originally posted by -Pr-

I suggest reading The John Byrne run on Superman; they're pretty blatant about how his powers work, which differs quite a bit from what came later.


Yeah, again, assuming that what Salsa gave me here was Byrne pre whatever changes you're alluding to, I don't think reading his run would help.

Quite the opposite.

It's showings of flight proven to work DIFFERENT for Superman than what Byrne shows here that I need to see:

His powers being shown to work radically differently isn't enough for you?

Originally posted by -Pr-
His powers being shown to work radically differently isn't enough for you?



To be honest, I'm a little haunted by the memory of what you did in the Superman/WorldBreaker thread, P.R.

You were talking the same way then, trying to pull a fast one on Carver.

I assumed you really did not know who was in the following scan, if you recall ...


http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/97/prime5jb.jpg/
----------------------------------------------------------------------




... for you responded to Carver with the following:



----------------------------------------------------------------------
-Pr-
...

Gender: Male
Location: Canada. Calgary.

Moderator


Prove it was Prime.
And no, that wasn't the Sinestro Corps tie-in.

Jun 26th, 2012 05:20 PM
----------------------------------------------------------------------





... but when I responded with this, thinking you were earnestly seeking an answer ...



----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=441406&pagenumber=2
Check for Galan's image link on the page the above takes you to.
----------------------------------------------------------------------




... you seriously shocked me by responding with the following:






----------------------------------------------------------------------

-Pr-
...

Gender: Male
Location: Canada. Calgary.

Moderator




...Thanks for ruining that for me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=566770&pagenumber=13




... which wouldn't have bothered me except someone called you on it ...





----------------------------------------------------------------------
Diesldude
Senior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States


quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
...Thanks for ruining that for me.


I think I did too and stayed quiet after that. But now since the cat is out of the bag, i have to ask, are you really that confident in carver's ? Like you didn't think he would ever find out what you did? And if that's the case how many other times have you done this before? Poor carver..

Jun 27th, 2012 09:06 AM
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=566770&pagenumber=14


----------------------------------------------------------------------



Got to say, it's rather alarming to see some of the same symptoms here, you going along with a member or members bashing Carver ("Fool's gold?", asking someone to prove a point that seems evident by the comics, saying there is a counter but not producing one, referring to a mod ruling but not giving a link, though that normally seems to be standard operating procedure for you...

On top of all that, this is the first time I've seen you in disagreement with Bada. I'm sure that's happened before, but I myself don't recall seeing it.
And one thing alone would be one thing; but, all of these together ...?



As it is, though, the only thing I know significantly different about Byrne Superman is that 2000+ era Superman did not come from a Krypton where leavers of the planet suffered a quick death.
A lot of his powers still seem to operate the same way, superstrength feats still seeming to require a great deal of mental will and perhaps even some sort of tactile telekinesis (which would go a long way explaining Connor Kent, by the way). For instance, Superman can pick up massive objects that SHOULD collapse under their own weight.
Or push objects that surface area laws say he should bore straight through based on pressure.

Assuming you're right about any change, in fact, I WOULD genuinely like to know how the writers you're thinking of explained these 3 facets of Superman. Muscular strength alone wouldn't do a good job of explaining ANY of these things ...

You're serious?

Oh this is good.

Originally posted by Mindset
That's it?

Mother phucker, are you crazy?

Hulks done better.

Originally posted by -Pr-


You're serious? quote mining's a hell of a tactic

^^^Yep.

This is generally why I stay out of Superman debates. It used to be because I didn't read it but that's no longer the case. It's just a ***** trying to figure out what counts, what doesn't etc. Makes debating a pain in the ass.

@Blue

Those scans you got from my pb are Byrne era.

I don't recall any reference saying his lift/flight feats work the same way post Byrne era. (except for all star Superman)

IIRC this way explained by Byrne was to "scientifically" explain how Superman can move large objects, with out the large object crumbling on it's own weight. At some point on an interview it was explained that he expanded his bio-aura to hold the large object together, some sort of tk (this will indicate that Superman has mental powers too), while the original lift was done with strength alone.

But like I said, this has not been used in a long time and not like it matters as his greatest lifting feats are done while on the ground and his planet moving feat was done against momentum greater then 1 m/s so, I don't think it will matter in the end.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

As it is, though, the only thing I know significantly different about Byrne Superman is that 2000+ era Superman did not come from a Krypton where leavers of the planet suffered a quick death.
A lot of his powers still seem to operate the same way, superstrength feats still seeming to require a great deal of mental will and perhaps even some sort of tactile telekinesis (which would go a long way explaining Connor Kent, by the way). For instance, Superman can pick up massive objects that SHOULD collapse under their own weight.
Or push objects that surface area laws say he should bore straight through based on pressure.

Assuming you're right about any change, in fact, I WOULD genuinely like to know how the writers you're thinking of explained these 3 facets of Superman. Muscular strength alone wouldn't do a good job of explaining ANY of these things ... It wasn't truly addressed, tbh, but the Byrne Man of Steel origin was scrapped and replaced as the official Superman origin later on, and none of the TK style of stuff was ever mentioned again. It was written out. This portrayal of Superman hasn't been used in a very long time.

See, the thing is, we don't need to prove it ISN'T how his powers work anymore. You would need to prove that a story that was written out of continuity still counts as the explanation for his power.

In the Byrne era Superman also couldn't survive in space.
Didn't have Freeze Breath.
His powers didn't develop until later in life and was never Superboy.
Only Green Kryptonite existed.
He was the only survivor of Krypton

We could go on for pages like this;

Pretty much everything Byrne introduced has zero impact on what came later.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
To be honest, I'm a little haunted by the memory of what you did in the Superman/WorldBreaker thread, P.R.

You were talking the same way then, trying to pull a fast one on Carver.

I assumed you really did not know who was in the following scan, if you recall ...


http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/97/prime5jb.jpg/
----------------------------------------------------------------------




... for you responded to Carver with the following:



----------------------------------------------------------------------
-Pr-
...

Gender: Male
Location: Canada. Calgary.

Moderator


Prove it was Prime.
And no, that wasn't the Sinestro Corps tie-in.

Jun 26th, 2012 05:20 PM
----------------------------------------------------------------------





... but when I responded with this, thinking you were earnestly seeking an answer ...



----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=441406&pagenumber=2
Check for Galan's image link on the page the above takes you to.
----------------------------------------------------------------------




... you seriously shocked me by responding with the following:






----------------------------------------------------------------------

-Pr-
...

Gender: Male
Location: Canada. Calgary.

Moderator




...Thanks for ruining that for me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=566770&pagenumber=13




... which wouldn't have bothered me except someone called you on it ...





----------------------------------------------------------------------
Diesldude
Senior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States


quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
...Thanks for ruining that for me.


I think I did too and stayed quiet after that. But now since the cat is out of the bag, i have to ask, are you really that confident in carver's ? Like you didn't think he would ever find out what you did? And if that's the case how many other times have you done this before? Poor carver..

Jun 27th, 2012 09:06 AM
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=566770&pagenumber=14


----------------------------------------------------------------------



Got to say, it's rather alarming to see some of the same symptoms here, you going along with a member or members bashing Carver ("Fool's gold?", asking someone to prove a point that seems evident by the comics, saying there is a counter but not producing one, referring to a mod ruling but not giving a link, though that normally seems to be standard operating procedure for you...

On top of all that, this is the first time I've seen you in disagreement with Bada. I'm sure that's happened before, but I myself don't recall seeing it.
And one thing alone would be one thing; but, all of these together ...?



As it is, though, the only thing I know significantly different about Byrne Superman is that 2000+ era Superman did not come from a Krypton where leavers of the planet suffered a quick death.
A lot of his powers still seem to operate the same way, superstrength feats still seeming to require a great deal of mental will and perhaps even some sort of tactile telekinesis (which would go a long way explaining Connor Kent, by the way). For instance, Superman can pick up massive objects that SHOULD collapse under their own weight.
Or push objects that surface area laws say he should bore straight through based on pressure.

Assuming you're right about any change, in fact, I WOULD genuinely like to know how the writers you're thinking of explained these 3 facets of Superman. Muscular strength alone wouldn't do a good job of explaining ANY of these things ... You are a creepy stalker...

Originally posted by Juntai
In the Byrne era Superman also couldn't survive in space.
Didn't have Freeze Breath.
His powers didn't develop until later in life and was never Superboy.
Only Green Kryptonite existed.
He was the only survivor of Krypton

We could go on for pages like this;

Pretty much everything Byrne introduced has zero impact on what came later.

Does that include vibration/counter vibration?