Surfer isn't playing

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carver9
Let's say Surfer was put in the same mindset as Superman was during OWAW. Isn't passive and is willing to kill to get the job done along with using his abilities at its core. What Herald or below could stop him?

Endless Mike
Hmm... Aquarian could maybe negate everything he tries

juggerman
Hulk solos

carver9
Originally posted by juggerman
Hulk is above Herald so let me not include him.

I couldn't agree with you more.

Happy Dance

juggerman
Originally posted by carver9
I couldn't agree with you more.

Happy Dance

laughing

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by carver9
Let's say Surfer was put in the same mindset as Superman was during OWAW. Isn't passive and is willing to kill to get the job done along with using his abilities at its core. What Herald or below could stop him?

It'd be really nice if someone created a chart that explains all this otherwise undecipherable forum jargon.

I know of Galactus, who sends powerful, speedy "scouts" ahead of him before he arrives to destroy an entire Earth-sized world. These scouts "herald" (i.e. "announce"wink his arrival, thus they are called "Heralds of Galactus".

So that's where your "Herald" term comes from.



The most commonly known heralds are probably

1) Firelord

and

2) Silver Surfer.


Flight, superstrength, great durability, great resistance to temperature extremes, great speed, high level energy blasts, ability to control and direct certain forms of energy.

In practical terms, then, Heralds are ... Superman.


He is called by a different name.
He wears a different outfit.
He does a different job.

Maybe he's coming down with a cold and thus a little weaker than normal.
Maybe he's taken steroids and gotten stronger.


But on the basic level it's Superman.


You can place any garden variety Kryptonian in a "herald" story as a result, make 2 adjustments, and you're good to go.



But what's above this level?
What's below?

Would Superboy Prime be considered Herald?
Pre-Crisis Supergirl of Earth One?
Mongul? Validus?

A thread that has a general chart of these sorts of classifications would be helpful.



Anyway, I'm assuming people with exactly one power would generally be considered Herald Class or below, with the possible exception of people like Molecule Man, who can basically do anything they want.


In which case my answer would be any Speed-Force possessing Flash.
Give him a detailed briefing of what the fight rules are, what the goals and stakes are, and ring the bell.

If the fight's on any sort of terra firma, Flash should automatically win 6 of 10 battles.

carver9
When it comes to Heralds, IMO, you would basically need to have a wide variety of powers, not just strength, etc... Surfer is Superman with a thousand more powers but looking through forums, the word Heralds are being thrown around losely. I argued this a while back but people have different opinions on the matter but it seems to work and categorize these hero's, so I don't see an issue with it.

Batman-Prime
Thor. Even in OWAW-SilverSurfer-goesSuperman mode Thor is the man... ehm... god who can stop him. He has his history with the SS knows him pretty well and can counter about anything the SS can throw at him. He is also stronger and Mjolnir i the perfect weapon to smash this bold and shiny head in.

pym-ftw
No herald could beat a bloodlusted norrin, ic

Sin I AM
Originally posted by pym-ftw
No herald could beat a bloodlusted norrin, ic

This

Nihilist
Surfer fought like this in Annihilation

Zack Fair
Surfer dominates if no one else is out for blood/knows he is out for blood.

If they go into the fight with the usual CIS they get wtf owned

Philosophía
Originally posted by carver9
Surfer is Superman with a thousand more powers That's what they say about Martian Manhunter, too. But when shit hits the fan, he is the one screaming in pain, along with the other 'Superman and more' characters in the background, while Superman is the frontline.

Just because he has some of Superman's powers, doesn't mean that he has has them at the same level. Same as Martian Manhunter. In his area, Superman is the shit - and just because Surfer is more versatile, doesn't mean he is more powerful, quite far from it.

Endless Mike
J'onn jobs to Superman all the time just because he's DC's favorite. In a non-PIS, non-jobbing bloodlusted battle I'd give the nod to J'onn over Kal 7/10 (3 wins for Kal due to heat vision)

Philosophía
Originally posted by Endless Mike
J'onn jobs to Superman all the time just because he's DC's favorite. In a non-PIS, non-jobbing bloodlusted battle I'd give the nod to J'onn over Kal 7/10 (3 wins for Kal due to heat vision) In the real world, "DC portrays Superman as superior to J'onn because they like him more" isn't a counter argument to "Superman is superior to J'onn because DC shows it". They're the ones who created and published both of the characters, and who defined and will define their abilities and formidability, for their whole existence.

It's a butthurt rationalization that means nothing.

pym-ftw
^or minus fighting each other they are shown to be near physical equals, MM's martian vision<Heat vision but all his other powers should give him the win

Philosophía
Originally posted by pym-ftw
^or minus fighting each other they are shown to be near physical equals, MM's martian vision<Heat vision but all his other powers should give him the win They aren't shown to be near-physical equals, at all. Superman has physically outperformed him, grossly, repeatedly, and to a significant degree.

But you'd have to read comics to know that, so that's probably where the difficulty comes.

Brockalizer

Endless Mike

Digi
So...playtime's over?

:sad

pym-ftw
Lol, at trying to start a flame war with me.

Minus incalculable or ludicrous feats that border on toon level, there are no feats of that suggest Kal is "grossly" more powerful than his peers like, Captain Marvel, Bladam, Wondy, or Martian Manhunter...

Philosophía
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Superman himself has admitted that J'onn is stronger than him. You might as well argue that Cap > Hulk because Marvel writes him winning sometimes. The Captain America/Hulk isn't similar because Hulk isn't overpowered by opponents or incapacitated by forcefields, that Captain America later overpowers or breaks free of. That's a ridiculously dumb and irrelevant analogy.

By this point, if you've read even a decent amount of Superman comics, you'd realize that lip-service given by him is irrelevant. And even if they amounted to something (which they don't), the actual formidability shown against opponents make J'onn look like a wet chihuahua about to face a Lion in the jungle.

Don't make me pull out scans, because this won't go in a direction you'd want.

Philosophía
Originally posted by pym-ftw
Lol, at trying to start a flame war with me.

Minus incalculable or ludicrous feats that border on toon level, there are no feats of that suggest Kal is "grossly" more powerful than his peers like, Captain Marvel, Bladam, Wondy, or Martian Manhunter... I never said that he's 'grossly' more powerful than his peers.

I said, in response to you saying that J'onn and Superman are near-physical equals, that Superman has grossly outperformed him physically, which makes you wrong.

If you can't keep up, be silent.

pym-ftw
In order to grossly out perform your peers you must either:

A. Be grossly more powerful
Or
B. Be given an unfair advantage; ie weaknesses, exploits, or pis

Lol, at your obvious troll comment

Endless Mike
Even if Superman is physically stronger, it isn't by that much, and doesn't exactly matter against someone who can become intangible.

Philosophía

Philosophía
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Even if Superman is physically stronger, it isn't by that much, and doesn't exactly matter against someone who can become intangible. Superman is physically stronger by that much.

Intangibility is something Superman can, and has gotten around of.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Superman beats John 6-7/10 on average. He beats John 10/10 when shit gets serious, how close each fight is depends. That's just the reality of the situation.

Telepathy won't stop Clark (At least if the fight is worth it), and intangibility is something he can counter. There might be rare exceptions like Fenrus, but even then, Superman's best is beyond John's best.

pym-ftw
Your coy insults and taking my posts out of context is why you are a troll

I stated taking away fights against each other and pis filled feats they are near physical equals, I then stated that the manhunters versatility edge should give him an edge in battle.

You dodged my last post, instead again trying to insult me, lol

Endless Mike
If both were written to their full potential, with full and intelligent use of their abilities, no jobbing or PIS, J'onn wins.

Philosophía
Originally posted by Endless Mike
If both were written to their full potential, with full and intelligent use of their abilities, no jobbing or PIS, J'onn wins. No, he would not. J'onn has only two weapons that would bother Superman in a fight - intangibility and telepathy. Both of those are something that Superman has overcome. At full potential, Superman would rapestomp J'onn.

Endless Mike
Yes, he's "overcome" them, but often with effort, and he's not immune to them. You could alternatively say that Superman has only one weapon that would bother J'onn - heat vision, and heat/fire is something that J'onn has overcome, so J'onn wins, using your same logic.

Sin I AM
Lol u guys are silly

Philosophía
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Yes, he's "overcome" them, but often with effort, and he's not immune to them. You could alternatively say that Superman has only one weapon that would bother J'onn - heat vision, and heat/fire is something that J'onn has overcome, so J'onn wins, using your same logic. He doesn't have to be immune to overcome them. Even Superman resisting J'onn, could send Manhunter reeling:



Who said Heat Vision is the only weapon of Superman's that would bother J'onn? That's the easy win. Superman is physically superior and could at a moment's notice also physically beat his brains out.

There is nothing a full potential J'onn could do in a fight that would do anything more other than momentarily stall, against a full potential Superman. The only breathing moments he has are when he is intangible, and those won't last. That is, if Superman lets him go intangible in the first place, and doesn't heat vision his brains out at the start, or blitzes the utter shit out of him. Which he would.

Endless Mike
And here is J'onn beating up Superman: http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/?action=view&current=Jimscomics102.jpg

Proves he's not so much stronger... Superman is just written higher more often because he's DC's golden boy

Philosophía
Originally posted by Endless Mike
And here is J'onn beating up Superman: http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/?action=view&current=Jimscomics102.jpg

Proves he's not so much stronger... Superman is just written higher more often because he's DC's golden boy What the--?

He threw a punch and then heat visioned a confused Superman. Is being able to punch Superman something that makes one close to him in strength? Har.

laughing out loud

Well, this might just turn hilarious.

My turn.

J'onn being trapped in a bubble and left there like an insignificant bug by young John Stewart for an extended period of time:

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt19/Max_Eisenhardt/mmstewardowning.jpg

Superman one-shotting an older, fully-focused on him John Stewart's shield, and the Green Lantern himself, with one punch:

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/supesjohnshield1.jpg
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/supesjohnshield2.jpg

Your turn.

Endless Mike
We're not here to compare feats. I'm just saying that the fact he's able to do that proves he's not so far below Superman in physical strength. If you actually look at his powerset and his feats against comparable characters and situations, in a PIS and jobbing - free fight J'onn wins.

Philosophía
Originally posted by Endless Mike
I'm just saying that the fact he's able to do that proves he's not so far below Superman in physical strength. You saying it doesn't make it so. Plenty of people in lower classes of strength have punched people in upper classes of strength, and affected them. It doesn't prove what you want it to prove. There is a noticeable and singificant gap between Superman and J'onn physically, and that's been shown time and time again.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
We're not here to compare feats. Obviously, because J'onn would get destroyed. Instead, what we're "comparing here" is your baseless, biased opinion on how you want things to be, with the rational world. They're not on the same wavelength.

You can plug in your ears and scream "the entire DC company is made of fanboys I know better what J'onn is capable of, eventough they're the ones that created and published him and Superman for their entire history", but it doesn't make it any less stupid or inconsequential to the discussion.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
If you actually look at his powerset and his feats against comparable characters and situations, in a PIS and jobbing - free fight J'onn wins. Ah, so now you want to continue comparing. Say the word, and we shall do so. Or will you be back to "we're not here to compare feats" ?

Endless Mike

The Merchant
This is now a Superman vs MM thread.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by The Merchant
This is now a Superman vs MM thread.

Lol ikr. Damn fanboys

Endless Mike
Fine, I'll stop dragging it off topic

Philosophía
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Based on what? Superman defeating the big major threat where J'onn failed to do so? Because that only happens because the writers and company favor him. Originally posted by Endless Mike
Superman also beats up people like Darkseid, who should by all rights be above him and he should never defeat without help or some kind of powerup/extenuating circumstance. Yet he does. "the company favors him" is not a counter-argument. The fanboy writers and biased companies are the ones that have been, and will be publishing stories both with J'onn and Superman for their entire existence. Not you.

If you want, I can borrow you some money to buy crayons and draw your own comics. Until then, those fanboys are the one supplying you with J'onn and Superman stories, on which we, logical people base our opinions on.

Superman is physically superior, and much more formidable, because the comics have shown so, repeatedly.

Now Superman can't beat Darkseid because you say so, too?

How about you start writing your own fanfiction, create a forum, and debate there, with those who read it?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
If you actually look at their powersets, and take their best showings for each power in their powersets (minus obvious PIS showings), it bears out what I've been saying. It really doesn't. The only thing that bears out here is that you're living in your own world, where you ignore whatever you want because "those fanboys" wrote them, and you know what's best.

psycho gundam

DarkSaint85
So erm....when were Supes/MM on Marvel Earth?

-Pr-
Yeah, let's get back on topic.

Surfer like this would be Annihilation Surfer, not some forum construct.

Thor would be the only person i'd bet on beating him, tbh.

Stoic
Originally posted by -Pr-
Yeah, let's get back on topic.

Surfer like this would be Annihilation Surfer, not some forum construct.

Thor would be the only person i'd bet on beating him, tbh.

Not sure if Annihilation Surfer fits perfectly. I'd go with Exiles Surfer mixed with Annihilation Surfer. Even Superman shouldn't be able to defeat the Surfer if he were to turn it up, and use his abilities to their fullest, but on the same note I don't see Thor doing much better, as the Surfer really does not have to be hit if he does not want to. The only guys that should be capable of beating him, are those that could exploit his weaknesses. Perhaps a very powerful TP talent, Sorcerer, or energy manipulator.

The Merchant
Wouldn't a bloodlusted Surfer just biol your blood to kill you as quickly as possible?

pym-ftw
Or insta-bfr into a blackhole

Stoic
Originally posted by The Merchant
Wouldn't a bloodlusted Surfer just biol your blood to kill you as quickly as possible?

As ridiculous as it may seem, there are guys out there like classic Lobo that this would not work on.

DarkSaint85
But he isn't on Marvel Earth.

Not sure who could stop him, tbh. He's got that speed thing going on for him, we already know telepaths can't really affect him (like God Cable; yes, I know he was distracted what with holding the station up etc, but still) and he has his black hole shtick going on.

Endless Mike
Lobo would probably think it would tickle

Stoic
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But he isn't on Marvel Earth.

Not sure who could stop him, tbh. He's got that speed thing going on for him, we already know telepaths can't really affect him (like God Cable; yes, I know he was distracted what with holding the station up etc, but still) and he has his black hole shtick going on.

Oh, this is limited to Marvel Earth? Well now that sux.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Lobo would probably think it would tickle

At his best, I think so too. But a black hole would work. The thing about Surfer is that he really doesn't have to be hit, he can remain intangible, and blast the mess out of any opponent unable to reverse this status. Loeb force Rulk may be able to take him though. I said may be able... big grin

carver9
Its not limited to Marvel Earth.I didnt say that in the thread title.

Badabing
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It'd be really nice if someone created a chart that explains all this otherwise undecipherable forum jargon.

I know of Galactus, who sends powerful, speedy "scouts" ahead of him before he arrives to destroy an entire Earth-sized world. These scouts "herald" (i.e. "announce"wink his arrival, thus they are called "Heralds of Galactus".

So that's where your "Herald" term comes from.



The most commonly known heralds are probably

1) Firelord

and

2) Silver Surfer.


Flight, superstrength, great durability, great resistance to temperature extremes, great speed, high level energy blasts, ability to control and direct certain forms of energy.

In practical terms, then, Heralds are ... Superman.


He is called by a different name.
He wears a different outfit.
He does a different job.

Maybe he's coming down with a cold and thus a little weaker than normal.
Maybe he's taken steroids and gotten stronger.


But on the basic level it's Superman.


You can place any garden variety Kryptonian in a "herald" story as a result, make 2 adjustments, and you're good to go.



But what's above this level?
What's below?

Would Superboy Prime be considered Herald?
Pre-Crisis Supergirl of Earth One?
Mongul? Validus?

A thread that has a general chart of these sorts of classifications would be helpful.



Anyway, I'm assuming people with exactly one power would generally be considered Herald Class or below, with the possible exception of people like Molecule Man, who can basically do anything they want.


In which case my answer would be any Speed-Force possessing Flash.
Give him a detailed briefing of what the fight rules are, what the goals and stakes are, and ring the bell.

If the fight's on any sort of terra firma, Flash should automatically win 6 of 10 battles. We used to have a tiers thread:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=447826

Transcendent (Sub-Skyfather):
Amazo, Black Racer, Blackheart, Circe, Death Urge, Despero, The Doctor, Dr. Fate, Dr. Strange (classic), Eclipso, Elders of the Universe (minus Ego), Fernus, The General (Shaggy Man), Gog, Gray Man, High Evolutionary, Ion (current), The Keeper, King Thor, Mangog, Mogo(?), Mongul I (Pre Crisis), Nightmare, Onimar Synn, Onslaught, Resurrection Man 1 Million, Sentinel (Alan Scott), Silver Age Kryptonians/Daxamites, Stayne, Sun Eater, Superboy Prime, Superman 1 Million, Takion, Tanaraq, Thanos, Tyrant (powered down), Validus

Top-Tier ("Herald"wink

High Top-Tier:
Adam Warlock, Baron Zemo (w/ Moonstones), Doomsday, Genis-Vell, Green Lantern (Hal, Kyle, Alan), Infinity-Man, Majestic, Moonstone (w/ both stones), The Silver Surfer, Spartan 3.0, Stardust, Superman, Superman Blue/Red, Thor

Middle Top-Tier:
Alexander Nero, Beta Ray Bill, Binary, Black Adam, Cable (Full Power), Captain Atom, Captain Marvel (DC), Cyborg Superman, Black Bolt, The Eradicator, The Fallen One, Firelord, The Flash III (Wally West), The Flash IV (Bart Allen), The Fury, General Zod, Gladiator, Green Lantern (Guy, John), Hyperion, Jack of Hearts, Kid Omega, Martian Manhunter, Maxima, Mon-El, Morg, Mr. M, Nate Grey, , Orion, Quasar, Rachel Summers (Phoenix II), Red Shift, The Sentry, Sersi, Sinestro, Skreet, Supergirl, Supreme, Swamp Thing, Terrax the Tamer, Void, Waverider, Wildfire, Wonder Woman,

Low Top-Tier:
Absorbing Man, Air Walker, Animal Man, Apocalypse, Apollo, The Atom, Bizarro Superman, Breach, Cassandra Nova, Cir-El, Count Nefaria, Darkness, Darwin, Death Metal, Dr. Invincible, Dr. Light, Dr. Polaris, Drax The Destroyer, Engineer, Etrigan, Exodus, Fin Fang Foom, Firestorm, The Flash II (Barry Allen), Gamora (w/Godslayer), Gilgamesh, Gorilla Grodd, Graviton, He-Man, Hector Hammond, Holocaust, Hulk, Iceman, Isis, Jade, Jack Hawksmoor (in city), Jericho, Juggernaut (Classic), Kalibak, Lightray, Living Monolith, Lobo, Loki, Lunatik, Magneto, Major Force, Makkari, Manchester Black, Mar-Vell, Matrix Supergirl, Meggan, Mongul, Monica Rambeau (Pulsar), Nova (Frankie Raye), Nova Richard Rider (current), Prime, Professor X, Raven, The Ray, Red Tornado, Ronan the Accuser, Saturn Girl, Selene (External), Shadow King, Shaman, Starhawk, Super Skrull, Superboy, Tempest, Ultra Boy, Union, Vulcan, Winter,

Mid-Tier ("Iron Man"wink

High Mid-Tier:
Abomination, Aquaman, Ares (Marvel), Atlas, Aurora, Blastaar, Blob, Captain Britain, Captain Marvel Jr, Colossus, Donna Troy, Doom, Emma Frost, Ghost Rider II, Grim Reaper, Guardian I, Hercules (Mortal), The Human Torch, Invisible Woman, Iron-Man, Jean Grey (sans Phoenix), Juggernaut (Depowered), Kang, Karate Kid, Living Laser, Mandarin, Mary Marvel, Maul, Metallo, Mimic (Exiles), Miss Martian, Mr. Fantastic, Mr. Sinister, Namor the Sub-Mariner, Nimrod, Northstar, Osiris, Pitt, Plastic-Man, Polaris, Power Girl, Psylocke, Sand, Sasquatch, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Temugin, The Thing, Thunderstrike, The Tick, Ulik, Ultimo, Ultron, Vision, War Machine, Wonder Man, Zzaxx

Middle Mid-Tier:
Aegis, Atom Smasher, Attuma, Balder, Beast Boy, Bishop, Blink, Blue Devil, Bombshell, Booster Gold, Box, Carnage, Cloak, Crystal, Cyborg, Cyclops, Death's Head II, Dust, Electro, Elijah Snow, Ghost Rider, Grace Choi, Havok, Hawkgirl, Hawkman, Hellion, The Flash I (Jay Garrick), Jenny Sparks, Kymaera/Namorita, Lightning Lad, M.O.D.O.K., Moonstone, Morlun, Ms. Marvel, Nico Minoru, Ogun, Omega Red, Quicksilver (classic), Radioactive Man, Rogue, Shadowcat, Shift, Steel, Terra, Thunder, Toxin, Vance Astro, Wonder Girl

Low Mid-Tier:
3-D Man, Ambrose Chase, Angel, Arachne, Arana, Azrael, Beast, Black Canary, Black Tarantula, Blade, Bruenor Battlehammer, Century, Charcoal, Charlie 27, Constrictor, Creeper, Dagger, Deathlok, Deathstroke the Terminator, Doc Ock, Drizzt Do'Urden, Elixer, Falcon, Firehawk, Gambit, Green Goblin, Hobgoblin, Iron Fist, Jakita Wagner, Karnak, Kid Devil, Killer Croc, Klaw, Lady Deathstrike, Longshot, Luke Cage, Machine Man, Man-Bat, Mercury, Midnighter, Mister Hyde, Molly Hayes, Mysterio, Mystique, Nightcrawler, Nova Richard Rider (classic), Nuke, Orka Humbug, Prometheus, Protocide, Puck, Puma, Rage, Rom, Sabretooth, Shang Chi, Silver Samurai, Speedball, Speedfreek, Spider-Man, Spider-Woman, Swift, Tombstone, Triathalon, Vance Astro, Vanguard, Venom, Vermin, Victor Mancha, Vulture, Warlock (Technarchy/Phalanx), Warpath, Wizard, Wolverine, Wulfgar

Low-Tier {"Street"wink

High Low-Tier:
Bane, Batgirl, Batman, Black Cat, Black Panther, Blacklash, Bronze Tiger, Bullseye, Captain America, The Cat, Daredevil, Elektra, Green Arrow, Hawkeye, Joker, Kingpin, Lady Shiva, Ravager, Red Skull, Richard Dragon, Taskmaster, Union Jack, X-23

Middle Low-Tier:
Arsenal/Red Arrow, Baron Zemo, Deadshot, Echo, Grifter, Misty Knight, Moon Knight, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Nomad, Punisher, Ra's Al Ghul, Turok, Wildcat

Low Low-Tier:
Batroc, Black Widow, Catwoman, Colleen Wing, Crossbones, Night Thrasher, Penguin, The Question, Riddler, Robin, Talia, White Tiger

-----------------------------------------------------

I hope it helps.

DarkSaint85
Oh, sorry.

Yeah, Lobo can stop him. Even a black hole wouldn't work, he can survive it:

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/8/80612/1487460-scan_loboinblackhole_super.jpg

JakeTheBank
Dr. Doom would end him.

Endless Mike
LMFAO @ Swamp Thing's placement on that list.

Slaanesh
no herald level character can beat this Surfer..

Zack Fair
Originally posted by The Merchant
This is now a Superman vs MM thread. Was about to say that lol

Stoic
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Dr. Doom would end him.

Without prep?

DarkSaint85
He's got the stuff lying around the place, I guess.

-Pr-
I see it didn't take long for this to turn in to forum surfer...

abhilegend
Superman still caves his head in.

Igniz
Harald Jaekelson laughing

JayDaDon
No one herald level stops surfer. The way thor is doing lately, well damn, I'm more than a little uncomfortable giving him the nod over even regular surfer now.

celeyhyga17
Thor

D-Block
Thor could stop him but he would have to cut loose!

dmills
I don't know what "forum" Surfer is but I'd imagine that per the stips he'd be sort of a composite of Annihilation Surfer, Exiles Surfer and Mc2 Surfer.

In Annihilation he straight punked a guy that was formerly a peer of his in power. Ravenous was for all intents and purposes frozen scared because Norrin had become something else entirely. Casually destroying a planet in the process just to prove a point. I don't even think Thor has ever shown that kind of casual power before. Only two people come to mind. WBH displayed that kind of casual dominance over former peers, but I don't think WBH exists anymore. Maybe Supes has, but he's not in this thread. So I'm going to say no current Marvel herald beats him.

abhilegend
Originally posted by dmills
I don't know what "forum" Surfer is but I'd imagine that per the stips he'd be sort of a composite of Annihilation Surfer, Exiles Surfer and Mc2 Surfer.

In Annihilation he straight punked a guy that was formerly a peer of his in power. Ravenous was for all intents and purposes frozen scared because Norrin had become something else entirely. Casually destroying a planet in the process just to prove a point. I don't even think Thor has ever shown that kind of casual power before. Only two people come to mind. WBH displayed that kind of casual dominance over former peers, but I don't think WBH exists anymore. Maybe Supes has, but he's not in this thread. So I'm going to say no current Marvel herald beats him.
Surfer has destroyed planets before casually and beat down characters who beat him by doing it like Morg. Ravenous was a ***** anyway, xenith had him scared as shit too.

dmills
Originally posted by abhilegend
Surfer has destroyed planets before casually and beat down characters who beat him by doing it like Morg. Ravenous was a ***** anyway, xenith had him scared as shit too.

Context. Ravenous sans Kurrs was a *****. Ravenous with kurrs was a peer to Norrin in power prior to Galactus upgrading/restoring Norrin. Afterwards it was a different story.

Morg? Gotta check on that one.

abhilegend
Originally posted by dmills
Context. Ravenous sans Kurrs was a *****. Ravenous with kurrs was a peer to Norrin in power prior to Galactus upgrading/restoring Norrin. Afterwards it was a different story.

Morg? Gotta check on that one.
The currs were re-generating after each kill as shown on panel. Surfer killed them when he realized they were his source of power and yet they were present atm when surfer busted the planet. Check SS annual 7.

dmills
Originally posted by abhilegend
The currs were re-generating after each kill as shown on panel. Surfer killed them when he realized they were his source of power and yet they were present atm when surfer busted the planet. Check SS annual 7.

Because I'm not exactly sure where the crux of our disaggrement lies I'll recap my points:

*Ravenous W/Currs was a peer to Norrin in power.

*Norrin was Upgraded, restored or whatevered by Galactus, Norrin then pwned Ravenous essentially without even having to resort to serious physical violence against him by casually destroying the planet that they were fighting on

*Ravenous shat his pants as he wondered out loud what had Norrin become.

You said...

Originally posted by abhilegend
Surfer has destroyed planets before casually and beat down characters who beat him by doing it like Morg. Ravenous was a ***** anyway, xenith had him scared as shit too.

I said he wasn't a ***** with the currs, but he was a ***** without the currs. And by that I mean he (Ravenous) w/Currs was a peer of Norrin's prior to the Galactus upgrade. After the upgrade Ravenous was a feeb to Norrin.

Ok now, so where are we having our issue?

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by Badabing
We used to have a tiers thread:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=447826

Transcendent (Sub-Skyfather):
Amazo, Black Racer, Blackheart, Circe, Death Urge, Despero, The Doctor, Dr. Fate, Dr. Strange (classic), Eclipso, Elders of the Universe (minus Ego), Fernus, The General (Shaggy Man), Gog, Gray Man, High Evolutionary, Ion (current), The Keeper, King Thor, Mangog, Mogo(?), Mongul I (Pre Crisis), Nightmare, Onimar Synn, Onslaught, Resurrection Man 1 Million, Sentinel (Alan Scott), Silver Age Kryptonians/Daxamites, Stayne, Sun Eater, Superboy Prime, Superman 1 Million, Takion, Tanaraq, Thanos, Tyrant (powered down), Validus

Top-Tier ("Herald"wink

High Top-Tier:
Adam Warlock, Baron Zemo (w/ Moonstones), Doomsday, Genis-Vell, Green Lantern (Hal, Kyle, Alan), Infinity-Man, Majestic, Moonstone (w/ both stones), The Silver Surfer, Spartan 3.0, Stardust, Superman, Superman Blue/Red, Thor

Middle Top-Tier:
Alexander Nero, Beta Ray Bill, Binary, Black Adam, Cable (Full Power), Captain Atom, Captain Marvel (DC), Cyborg Superman, Black Bolt, The Eradicator, The Fallen One, Firelord, The Flash III (Wally West), The Flash IV (Bart Allen), The Fury, General Zod, Gladiator, Green Lantern (Guy, John), Hyperion, Jack of Hearts, Kid Omega, Martian Manhunter, Maxima, Mon-El, Morg, Mr. M, Nate Grey, , Orion, Quasar, Rachel Summers (Phoenix II), Red Shift, The Sentry, Sersi, Sinestro, Skreet, Supergirl, Supreme, Swamp Thing, Terrax the Tamer, Void, Waverider, Wildfire, Wonder Woman,

Low Top-Tier:
Absorbing Man, Air Walker, Animal Man, Apocalypse, Apollo, The Atom, Bizarro Superman, Breach, Cassandra Nova, Cir-El, Count Nefaria, Darkness, Darwin, Death Metal, Dr. Invincible, Dr. Light, Dr. Polaris, Drax The Destroyer, Engineer, Etrigan, Exodus, Fin Fang Foom, Firestorm, The Flash II (Barry Allen), Gamora (w/Godslayer), Gilgamesh, Gorilla Grodd, Graviton, He-Man, Hector Hammond, Holocaust, Hulk, Iceman, Isis, Jade, Jack Hawksmoor (in city), Jericho, Juggernaut (Classic), Kalibak, Lightray, Living Monolith, Lobo, Loki, Lunatik, Magneto, Major Force, Makkari, Manchester Black, Mar-Vell, Matrix Supergirl, Meggan, Mongul, Monica Rambeau (Pulsar), Nova (Frankie Raye), Nova Richard Rider (current), Prime, Professor X, Raven, The Ray, Red Tornado, Ronan the Accuser, Saturn Girl, Selene (External), Shadow King, Shaman, Starhawk, Super Skrull, Superboy, Tempest, Ultra Boy, Union, Vulcan, Winter,

Mid-Tier ("Iron Man"wink

High Mid-Tier:
Abomination, Aquaman, Ares (Marvel), Atlas, Aurora, Blastaar, Blob, Captain Britain, Captain Marvel Jr, Colossus, Donna Troy, Doom, Emma Frost, Ghost Rider II, Grim Reaper, Guardian I, Hercules (Mortal), The Human Torch, Invisible Woman, Iron-Man, Jean Grey (sans Phoenix), Juggernaut (Depowered), Kang, Karate Kid, Living Laser, Mandarin, Mary Marvel, Maul, Metallo, Mimic (Exiles), Miss Martian, Mr. Fantastic, Mr. Sinister, Namor the Sub-Mariner, Nimrod, Northstar, Osiris, Pitt, Plastic-Man, Polaris, Power Girl, Psylocke, Sand, Sasquatch, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Temugin, The Thing, Thunderstrike, The Tick, Ulik, Ultimo, Ultron, Vision, War Machine, Wonder Man, Zzaxx

Middle Mid-Tier:
Aegis, Atom Smasher, Attuma, Balder, Beast Boy, Bishop, Blink, Blue Devil, Bombshell, Booster Gold, Box, Carnage, Cloak, Crystal, Cyborg, Cyclops, Death's Head II, Dust, Electro, Elijah Snow, Ghost Rider, Grace Choi, Havok, Hawkgirl, Hawkman, Hellion, The Flash I (Jay Garrick), Jenny Sparks, Kymaera/Namorita, Lightning Lad, M.O.D.O.K., Moonstone, Morlun, Ms. Marvel, Nico Minoru, Ogun, Omega Red, Quicksilver (classic), Radioactive Man, Rogue, Shadowcat, Shift, Steel, Terra, Thunder, Toxin, Vance Astro, Wonder Girl

Low Mid-Tier:
3-D Man, Ambrose Chase, Angel, Arachne, Arana, Azrael, Beast, Black Canary, Black Tarantula, Blade, Bruenor Battlehammer, Century, Charcoal, Charlie 27, Constrictor, Creeper, Dagger, Deathlok, Deathstroke the Terminator, Doc Ock, Drizzt Do'Urden, Elixer, Falcon, Firehawk, Gambit, Green Goblin, Hobgoblin, Iron Fist, Jakita Wagner, Karnak, Kid Devil, Killer Croc, Klaw, Lady Deathstrike, Longshot, Luke Cage, Machine Man, Man-Bat, Mercury, Midnighter, Mister Hyde, Molly Hayes, Mysterio, Mystique, Nightcrawler, Nova Richard Rider (classic), Nuke, Orka Humbug, Prometheus, Protocide, Puck, Puma, Rage, Rom, Sabretooth, Shang Chi, Silver Samurai, Speedball, Speedfreek, Spider-Man, Spider-Woman, Swift, Tombstone, Triathalon, Vance Astro, Vanguard, Venom, Vermin, Victor Mancha, Vulture, Warlock (Technarchy/Phalanx), Warpath, Wizard, Wolverine, Wulfgar

Low-Tier {"Street"wink

High Low-Tier:
Bane, Batgirl, Batman, Black Cat, Black Panther, Blacklash, Bronze Tiger, Bullseye, Captain America, The Cat, Daredevil, Elektra, Green Arrow, Hawkeye, Joker, Kingpin, Lady Shiva, Ravager, Red Skull, Richard Dragon, Taskmaster, Union Jack, X-23

Middle Low-Tier:
Arsenal/Red Arrow, Baron Zemo, Deadshot, Echo, Grifter, Misty Knight, Moon Knight, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Nomad, Punisher, Ra's Al Ghul, Turok, Wildcat

Low Low-Tier:
Batroc, Black Widow, Catwoman, Colleen Wing, Crossbones, Night Thrasher, Penguin, The Question, Riddler, Robin, Talia, White Tiger

-----------------------------------------------------

I hope it helps.




I'm not sure if I'm more amazed at the number of people I DON'T know on that list or the number of people that I do.

I'm also not really sure, judging by some of those names, what the actual ranking criteria was or is or who decided it.

It DOES give me a much better idea of what people are talking about now, though, so it did and does help a good deal.


Thank you for your time.

vince_slice
Annihilation Surfer was a beast. Casually creating a black holes and destroying planets, beating the shit out of Ravenous, and taking on two Galactus level beings. But now he's currently a fry cook in Broxton. lol.

dmills
LOL

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by vince_slice
Annihilation Surfer was a beast. Casually creating a black holes and destroying planets, beating the shit out of Ravenous, and taking on two Galactus level beings. But now he's currently a fry cook in Broxton. lol.

Taking on and surviving against abstracts is pretty wtf?!?! He beat them through some clear cut plot device, but the fact he even survived long enough to do so was nutz. Don't forget, Thor has done something similar when he went up against a group of Celestials.

abhilegend
Originally posted by dmills
Because I'm not exactly sure where the crux of our disaggrement lies I'll recap my points:

*Ravenous W/Currs was a peer to Norrin in power.
He was.

Which has nothing to do with increase in power. Surfer has wrecked his peers before.


He did that against xenith too.



That wasn't due to upgrades. Like all high heralds surfer holds back and when he didn't he made ravenous shat his pants.


The issue is that surfer wasn't seen as more powerful, he wasn't holding back and that's it.

abhilegend
Originally posted by vince_slice
Annihilation Surfer was a beast. Casually creating a black holes and destroying planets, beating the shit out of Ravenous, and taking on two Galactus level beings. But now he's currently a fry cook in Broxton. lol. Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Taking on and surviving against abstracts is pretty wtf?!?! He beat them through some clear cut plot device, but the fact he even survived long enough to do so was nutz. Don't forget, Thor has done something similar when he went up against a group of Celestials.
It wasn't as spectacular as surfer fans made it to be as TI retconned them as just M-bodies. Surfer was nearly killed by just a few blows, high heralds have done better than that multiple times.

abhilegend
I re-read annihilation and found something interesting. Ravenous was stalemating surfer pound for pound untill surfer killed his curr even when surfer was in his mythical "annihilation-surfer mode". The planet busting and ravenous shitting his pants came later.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Marvel/th_SS-4_0013.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Marvel/th_SS-4_0014.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Marvel/th_SS-4_0015.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Marvel/th_SS-4_0016.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Marvel/th_SS-4_0017.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Marvel/th_SS-4_0018.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Marvel/th_SS-4_0019.jpg

Interesting indeed.

Nihilist
Few things.

Surfer received no upgrade in Annihilation, Galactus just stopped him being a pacifist this was confirmed by the writer.

T&A weren't M Bodies at all. They didn't get round to explaining how they returned to life...again confirmed by Abnett and lanning plus Tom B

DarkSaint85
Really? What I got from those scans (will read the full issue later) was that Ravenous and SS were fighting evenly, pound for pound, until Surfer decided to stop playing, and end things. Then Ravenous was all oh wow ur teh awsum.

Nihilist
If you read the exchange between G and Surfer, Norrin rejects the offer of a power increase so Galactus removes his mental blocks so to speak

ODG
Galactus offered Surfer several things: (i) will; (ii) renewed power; and (iii) no more remorse. Silver Surfer refuses the offer to take away his remorse. Galactus restores his will and his power. Which is confirmed here, "Galactus welcomes the Surfer back as his Herald, restoring his power and resolve":

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/More%20Random/SilverSurfer07.jpg

abhilegend
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Really? What I got from those scans (will read the full issue later) was that Ravenous and SS were fighting evenly, pound for pound, until Surfer decided to stop playing, and end things. Then Ravenous was all oh wow ur teh awsum.
He killed ravenous' curr just before the planet busting.

dmills
Call it whatever you want, an upgrade, a restoration of willpower or whatever else. Whatever it was it was something different and Ravenous recognized it and the material makes it emphatically clear. THAT much is certain.

@Abhi,

Ravenous without currs was tooled by Xenith. He was trying to fight her back, he just didn't have the speed or power to do anything. Comparing that to the Surfer scenario is not accurate at all bro.

vince_slice
Originally posted by vince_slice
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And people say Surfer sucks H2H stick out tongue

This is another example of Surfer when he stops holding back. He beats up Skaar and forcefully tears the Oldpower from him when he learned Skaar was going to destroy the planet.

KuRuPT Thanosi

iceman24567
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Except the instances where Martians are described as being more powerful than Superman? yeah but actual comic showings show Superman to be superior to Martians in spades.

The Sorrow
Originally posted by vince_slice
This is another example of Surfer when he stops holding back. He beats up Skaar and forcefully tears the Oldpower from him when he learned Skaar was going to destroy the planet.
Looked as though Surfer was losing until he absorbed Skaar's power and channeled it to beat him down. Great showing of energy manipulation though.

vince_slice
Originally posted by The Sorrow
Looked as though Surfer was losing until he absorbed Skaar's power and channeled it to beat him down. Great showing of energy manipulation though.
What are you talking about? Surfer never absorbed Skaar's power and used it against him. He knocked Skaar out, then sealed away his power.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Originally posted by iceman24567
yeah but actual comic showings show Superman to be superior to Martians in spades.

more feats doesn't equal more powerful icebuddy... Yes superman has been shown to outperform J'onn at times.. I'm just pointing out that Martians have been, on various occarions, been described as more powerful.

"Id"
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oh, sorry.

Yeah, Lobo can stop him. Even a black hole wouldn't work, he can survive it:

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/8/80612/1487460-scan_loboinblackhole_super.jpg

Its official, Lobo goes World Breaker on him.

iceman24567
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
more feats doesn't equal more powerful icebuddy... Yes superman has been shown to outperform J'onn at times.. I'm just pointing out that Martians have been, on various occarions, been described as more powerful. I would say more feats and better feats. I dont see J'onn beating Darkseid or Henshaw for a majority. Supermans track record is simply better. J'onn may be more versatile but Superman is more powerful hes stronger, faster and more durable by a good margin.

Branlor Swift
everyone knows Billy is the only Supes level hero character that is consistently on his level. Everyone else has faltered and is really a full tier below him.

Majestic I guess too, but not WW or MM

KuRuPT Thanosi
I would put Orion in the class of Billy and performing at superman level or above.

The Sorrow
Originally posted by vince_slice
What are you talking about? Surfer never absorbed Skaar's power and used it against him. He knocked Skaar out, then sealed away his power.
He took Skaar's power, beat him up then sealed it away. When he eventually beat Skaar he was glowing green with the old power, before that he was losing. It looks as though he amped from it.

vince_slice
Originally posted by The Sorrow
He took Skaar's power, beat him up then sealed it away. When he eventually beat Skaar he was glowing green with the old power, before that he was losing. It looks as though he amped from it.
There's nothing on panel that supports what you just said. Where does it say or show Surfer absorbing the old power? Surfer wasn't glowing green either, that's blue from his own power cosmic.

ODG
^ Could be seen both ways, I think. Either way, somehow Surfer locked the Oldpower away from Skaar.

Nihilist
Lol Sorrow. Typical lying Hulk fans

vince_slice
Originally posted by ODG
^ Could be seen both ways, I think. Either way, somehow Surfer locked the Oldpower away from Skaar.

Surfer did seal away the old power at the end, after the beat down. But I didn't see any panels or narrations showing Surfer absorbing the old power and using it to beat Skaar. The way I saw it was, Surfer look off the gloves when he realized Skaar was going to destroy the planet, and plain overpowered him. Then he sealed his power away.

Branlor Swift
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I would put Orion in the class of Billy and performing at superman level or above. That's the other one I forgot

The Sorrow
Originally posted by vince_slice
There's nothing on panel that supports what you just said. Where does it say or show Surfer absorbing the old power? Surfer wasn't glowing green either, that's blue from his own power cosmic.
Surfer is clearly losing initially and once he connects with Skaar he suddenly beats him down. He then goes on to manipulate the ground Old Power style and seal it off inside the planet. Last time I checked Surfer can't manifest the Old Power on a whim so he must have drained it from Skaar. That's how I interpreted it and makes the most sense imo. I can see where you're coming from and ODG is right, tbf it can be interpreted both ways.

Originally posted by Nihilist
Lol Sorrow. Typical lying Hulk fans
Troll harder.

vince_slice
Originally posted by The Sorrow
Surfer is clearly losing initially and once he connects with Skaar he suddenly beats him down.


Surfer suddenly beats him down because he got serious once he realized what Skaar was going to do. Is it hard to believe that Surfer beat Skaar H2H with his own power?


Did you read the scans? Surfer says he used to power cosmic to do that. It's right there on panel, not sure how you missed. In addition the colour and effects don't resemble the old power that Skaar used. Surfer's power cosmic was blue light, and Skaar's old power was greenish lightning/energy. Vastly different.


That's because Surfer never "manifested" the old power in the scans. That blue glow is from his power cosmic, he even states that he's using the power cosmic to seal and heal the planet, not the old power.

Also Skaar only realizes he can't use the old power after the beat down. If Surfer had "stolen" the old power and used it against Skaar, you would think Skaar would realize just before, or during the beat down. But that's not the case.

ODG
Originally posted by vince_slice
Also Skaar only realizes he can't use the old power after the beat down. If Surfer had "stolen" the old power and used it against Skaar, you would think Skaar would realize just before, or during the beat down. But that's not the case. That's not necessarily dispositive of Surfer stealing the Oldpower. There are many times when people only realize too late that their power's been stolen.

Colossus-Big C
Hulk kills him

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
everyone knows Billy is the only Supes level hero character that is consistently on his level. Everyone else has faltered and is really a full tier below him.

Majestic I guess too, but not WW or MM I would put Black Adam there too, in 52 he beat Martian Manhunter to an inch of his life.


Black Adam, Orion Captain Marvel, Majestic are the only consistent superman level heralds.

Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman and everyone else is beneath them I would put thor, silver surfer, brb beneath them as well

vince_slice
Originally posted by ODG
That's not necessarily dispositive of Surfer stealing the Oldpower. There are many times when people only realize too late that their power's been stolen.
The amp Skaar got was pretty massive e.g., the power to destroy the planet. It also gave him the ability to sense or "hear" people's anguish across the globe. If he did get it stolen before he got beat down, then he should've noticed, unless he's slow in the head. Either that or Surfer is super sneaky and fast, to the point where he could steal a massive amount of power without Skaar noticing right away. This is assuming Surfer stole his powers before the beat down, which I think didn't happen. Surfer sealed away Skaar's power after he knocked him down.

Which scan depicts Surfer actually stealing the old power from Skaar before the beat down?

ODG
Originally posted by vince_slice
The amp Skaar got was pretty massive e.g., the power to destroy the planet. It also gave him the ability to sense or "hear" people's anguish across the globe. If he did get it stolen before he got beat down, then he should've noticed, unless he's slow in the head. Or unless he's getting the p1ss beaten out of him. Which is what happened. Originally posted by vince_slice
Either that or Surfer is super sneaky and fast, to the point where he could steal a massive amount of power without Skaar noticing right away. This is assuming Surfer stole his powers before the beat down, which I think didn't happen. Surfer sealed away Skaar's power after he knocked him down.

Which scan depicts Surfer actually stealing the old power from Skaar before the beat down? Power being stolen happens all the time in fights. Speaking of which, Surfer had his own power drained and used against him by Quasar without Surfer noticing. And Surfer has Cosmic Awareness.

I'm just saying, there really isn't anything dispositive about Skaar not noticing/screaming about it happening until it was too late.

vince_slice
Originally posted by ODG
Or unless he's getting the p1ss beaten out of him. Which is what happened.
Are you suggesting Surfer drained Skaar's old power while he was beating him down?


Was all of Surfer's powers stolen to the point where he couldn't use his powers any more? Because that's what happened to Skaar, he lost his old power completely. I can understand not noticing some of your power stolen, but not noticing all of it being gone? That's a little harder to believe.


Probably, but I still don't see why we'd assume Surfer stole the old power (before the beat down) in the first place without it being implied by the art or narrative. Its an unnecessary assumption, unless I'm missing something in the scans?

Branlor Swift
Looks like Surfer just got offended that Skaar was about to destroy the planet that he lost it and punched Skaar with the fury of The Fist. If he had enough energy after sealing the planet to make his dick viewable, I've no doubts he would have jizzed up Skaar's nose for that shit.

Skaar was afterall still glowing until Surfer sealed up the Old Power.

ODG
Originally posted by vince_slice
Are you suggesting Surfer drained Skaar's old power while he was beating him down?

Was all of Surfer's powers stolen to the point where he couldn't use his powers any more? Because that's what happened to Skaar, he lost his old power completely. I can understand not noticing some of your power stolen, but not noticing all of it being gone? That's a little harder to believe.

Probably, but I still don't see why we'd assume Surfer stole the old power (before the beat down) in the first place without it being implied by the art or narrative. Its an unnecessary assumption, unless I'm missing something in the scans? Only if you're suggesting that it can't possibly have happened.

No, but my example was meant to address your different point. If you want to move the goalposts, I have another example. Doom stole Galactus' power. Galactus said you can't do that, "I am Omega, Alpha, blahblah." Doom straight-up interrupted his schpeal and said, "B1tch, please. I already did."

It's no more an unnecessary assumption than assuming Skaar's late reaction as proof that Surfer did no such thing. That's the only point I was making. It's arguable Surfer never drained it from Skaar. It's arguable that he did. And Skaar's late reaction isn't necessarily dispositive of anything.

The Merchant
Off topic, but I Killer croc shouldn't be that high on the mid-tier list.

abhilegend
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Except the instances where Martians are described as being more powerful than Superman?
PIS.stick out tongue

vince_slice
Originally posted by ODG
Only if you're suggesting that it can't possibly have happened.

No, but my example was meant to address your different point. If you want to move the goalposts, I have another example. Doom stole Galactus' power. Galactus said you can't do that, "I am Omega, Alpha, blahblah." Doom straight-up interrupted his schpeal and said, "B1tch, please. I already did."

It's no more an unnecessary assumption than assuming Skaar's late reaction as proof that Surfer did no such thing. That's the only point I was making. It's arguable Surfer never drained it from Skaar. It's arguable that he did. And Skaar's late reaction isn't necessarily dispositive of anything.
It could've happened, sure. But without solid evidence (i.e., art and narration), there's no reason for me to believe it.

My point was that if you had all your power stolen, you tend to notice/react to it fast. In the Surfer/Quasar example, Surfer only had a bit of his power stolen, not all of it. So of course, he might not notice. But if Surfer had all his power stolen, chances are he would've noticed right away. In the Doom/Galactus example, Galactus actually notices right away that Doom stole his power, even before it was fully stolen, that kind of supports my point. At least the Doom/Galactus example has art and narration depicting the power being stolen, there was no such thing for Surfer/Skaar.

I understand your point, but the late reaction point wasn't suppose of be standalone proof Surfer didn't steal. It was suppose to be conjunctive with the other points I made:

(1) No art or narration depicting Surfer stealing the old power before the beat down.
(2) Surfer said he used the power cosmic to seal away Skaars power after the beat down.
(3) Skaar only reacting to losing his power after Surfer said he sealed it, which took place after the beat down.

All of these points together suggests Surfer took the power away after the beat down.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Originally posted by abhilegend
PIS.stick out tongue

That superman should beat someone with close physical statss but much more versatility? You're right PIS stick out tongue

The Sorrow
Originally posted by vince_slice
Surfer suddenly beats him down because he got serious once he realized what Skaar was going to do. Is it hard to believe that Surfer beat Skaar H2H with his own power?
It would mean this was a low showing for Skaar because Surfer 3 shotted him once he "amped up". Skaar has fought Juggernaut, Green Scar at WWH levels, hulked out heroes, amped Dr Doom etc etc all of whom are noticeably stronger than Surfer and it took them several blows to put Skaar down when he's amping with the Old Power like he was in those scans. In this case he was backed by a whole planet of the stuff too which would only really reinforce how low of a showing it would be looking at it from your pov.


Yes I have the book at home. You believe he didn't drain Skaar (although i'm not 100% sure looking at how your stance on this has changed somewhat), but if that's the case how did the Old Power return to it's source? Simply repairing the planet wouldn't have done that, and I have never seen Surfer drain/remove a being's energy without touching them. The only part of the fight which this seemed possible to take place was when he and Skaar joined hands which was my original point and fits better with whats happening on panel imo.


ODG has already debunked this imo. Plus how is Skaar going to acknowledge Surfer taking his power if he's getting beaten down. Before he knew what was happening he was near unconscious.

dmills
There's nothing in the material that suggests an energy absorption. No verbal que's, no narraration, no art depiction, nothing. ODG's point, while fair, I think he has to consider the fact that energy absorption/ draining and/or redirecting is a fairly popular plot device in comic-dom. I can't recall a single instance where it was used or even implied to be used sans verbal and illustrative que's.

The closest example that comes to mind is Rulk in his initial appearances. And even that was apart of the overall "mystery" narrative surrounding the debut of the character that was later revealed to be part of his power set.

So I guess in summary while it's technically feasible that Norrin used energy absorption, I think that it's a stretch to unequivocally say so when a plain reading of the material doesn't suggest so. Oh and the fact that iirc much like in "Planet Hulk", Norrin had no access to exotic PC to begin with on that planet. Just his strength. I could be wrong though.

vince_slice
Originally posted by The Sorrow

It would mean this was a low showing for Skaar because Surfer 3 shotted him once he "amped up". Skaar has fought Juggernaut, Green Scar at WWH levels, hulked out heroes, amped Dr Doom etc etc all of whom are noticeably stronger than Surfer and it took them several blows to put Skaar down when he's amping with the Old Power like he was in those scans. In this case he was backed by a whole planet of the stuff too which would only really reinforce how low of a showing it would be looking at it from your pov.
Or, maybe this was a high showing for Surfer. Maybe Surfer is actually that powerful, and you're not giving him enough credit. Just because you don't like the fact that Skaar got beat so easily by Surfer doesn't justify making up an interpretation of the scene that has zero on panel evidence (i.e., no narrative or art) to support it. Thinking its a low showing for Skaar, doesn't prove your interpretation true. You need solid evidence, which you lack.


In case you're confused, let me reiterate your stance versus mine. According to you, Surfer absorbed and stole Skaar's old power, amped off it, and used it to beat down Skaar. My stance is that Surfer got serious once he learned Skaar was going to destroy the planet, and beat him down, then after Skaar was down, he sealed away Skaar's old power with the power cosmic. Your stance has zero on panel evidence to support it.


How did the old power return to its source? After Surfer beats down Skaar, he states (on panel) that he used the power cosmic to seal Skaar's old power back to its source e.g., "I've used the power cosmic to force it back to its source."
http://i41.tinypic.com/xga3qc.jpg


Well now you have. Surfer's drain energy from things without actually touching them before. He's drained energy from a star and transferred it to Moondragon without touching either of them. It's not hard to believe that he sealed Skaar's power away without touching him, because that what he states he did (on panel), and because Skaar was unconscious and couldn't resist regardless.


You think that scene shows Surfer absorbing Skaar's old power? That scene clearly shows Skaar using his old power to destroy the planet, hence Surfer looks shocked and states "you'd destroy your own planet to defeat me?", frowns and calls Skaar a fool, then proceeds to whoop his ass. Neither the art nor narration support your interpretation.
http://i46.tinypic.com/10wlijt.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/20kf1hk.jpg

Notice in the second scan the light and colour emitted by Surfer (blue light) while he punches Skaar is different than the old power energy (greenish energy) emitted by Skaar. Surfer's obviously amping off the power cosmic.

Surfer even later states that the whole ordeal (fighting, sealing the old power, and healing the planet) drained him of his power cosmic
http://tinypic.com/r/35bwozd/6


I already addressed it, he only criticized one of my points, and not the others. Like I said, all my points were suppose to work in conjunction as proof of my argument. Not individually. Critiquing one of my points and ignoring the others isn't fair because all my points were suppose to work in unison. But even if I gave that point up. My first point, the fact that you have no on panel evidence to support your interpretation, is good enough on its own.

janus77
Surfer anchored Lunatik's lifeforce to a planet without even touching Lunatik. I think it was clear that Surfer just beat the shit out of Skaar, when he realised the kid wasn't going to listen to reason.

It's not a bad showing for Skaar, Hulk too would have pummelled Skaar if it wasn't for the fact that he is Skaar's father. Skaar is only supposed to be a 12yr old or something, a kid. He's hardly reached the peak of his powers.

In time he might turn out to be a seriously powerful high herald, at present he's just a few degrees higher than say Magneto (imo).

He has the powerset to be pretty awesome, the OP gives him so much scope for devastation and he can basically amp from any planetoid's energies so, maybe he could even affect the planet's spirit (Gaia for example)?

janus77
As for this thread, no herald stands a realistic chance against a resolute Surfer. His amping abilities alone make him good enough to challenge and topple skyfathers (UniLord). His versatility and the level of power he has with them, make him insanely difficult to hit/grab/see. And he can even synthesise magic, so that needn't be an obstacle either.

armedforbattle
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
I would put Black Adam there too, in 52 he beat Martian Manhunter to an inch of his life.


Black Adam, Orion Captain Marvel, Majestic are the only consistent superman level heralds.

Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman and everyone else is beneath them I would put thor, silver surfer, brb beneath them as well
Would you explain how surfer is consistently below supes. That's bullshit and you know it. I could see an argument for Thor. But not surfer, surfer beats supes every time.

JakeTheBank
lol don't listen to him.

abhilegend
Originally posted by armedforbattle
Would you explain how surfer is consistently below supes. That's bullshit and you know it. I could see an argument for Thor. But not surfer, surfer beats supes every time.
Surfer beats superman every time? Lulz.

abhilegend
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That superman should beat someone with close physical statss but much more versatility? You're right PIS stick out tongue
Close physical stats? Where?

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/teams/supermanbatman33f.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/teams/supermanbatman33g.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/teams/supermanbatman33h.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/teams/supermanbatman33i.jpg

Maybe a dream-version of J'onn you were referencing.

DarkSaint85
Doesn't J'onn have him in a chokehold?

Regardless, its a mind controlled J'onn, and a holding back Supes. So I can't really see how a good comparison could be made in this instance.

abhilegend
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Doesn't J'onn have him in a chokehold?

Regardless, its a mind controlled J'onn, and a holding back Supes. So I can't really see how a good comparison could be made in this instance.
He was attempting to hold him with the aid of PG, Ultraa and lots of other heroes and was failing. Superman got in a chokehold because that was their plan(him and bruce) all along to discover the mind behind all that mind-control.

Philosophía
I kind of feel bad for J'onn.

His supporters are basically Superman haters, so they don't really know shit about either characters.

It's kind of like Rhino getting support from Thor fans, because they hate Hulk.

carver9
Originally posted by abhilegend
Close physical stats? Where?

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/teams/supermanbatman33f.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/teams/supermanbatman33g.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/teams/supermanbatman33h.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/teams/supermanbatman33i.jpg

Maybe a dream-version of J'onn you were referencing.

Wasn't the hero's controlled in these scans.?

-Pr-
Originally posted by carver9
Wasn't the hero's controlled in these scans.?

Yes, they were.

Mind control doesn't lessen durability, though.

carver9
Originally posted by -Pr-
Yes, they were.

Mind control doesn't lessen durability, though.

confused It's not usable.

-Pr-
Originally posted by carver9
confused It's not usable.

Yes it is. Mind control covers a character's mental capacity, not their physical stats.

You could argue that J'onn might phase or that he might dodge the attack (though thats unlikely), but you can't argue that he would have been more durable.

carver9
Originally posted by -Pr-
Yes it is. Mind control covers a character's mental capacity, not their physical stats.

You could argue that J'onn might phase or that he might dodge the attack (though thats unlikely), but you can't argue that he would have been more durable.

How many times have you argued with me about Mind Controlled characters? Really Pr.?

-Pr-
Originally posted by carver9
How many times have you argued with me about Mind Controlled characters? Really Pr.?

It's not so much me arguing as it is setting things straight.

You need to read what I said again about mental capacity.

carver9
Originally posted by -Pr-
It's not so much me arguing as it is setting things straight.

You need to read what I said again about mental capacity.

SMH.

-Pr-
Originally posted by carver9
SMH.

It's not my fault you don't like the rules. shrug

Especially given your own flip-flopping when it comes to mental control.

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