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Preboot versions.
1. Classic slugfest
2. Standard Fight

Who wins?

Manhunter in both, unless wondy has weapons in the slugfest

A slugfest is just punching each other.

Slugfest definitely goes to WW.
Standard goes to MM

I'd say WW in both.

Slugfest, well, she's got the edge.

Full fight, she can protect against telepathy, and the lasso can grab intangeable, and she gains multiple attacks over just a slugfest.


The biggest reason I'd say, though, is endurance. J'onn gets tired out easier and often when he does use all of his powers rapidly, he's exhausted afterwards (not all the time, but often). He's a strong character but he'll run out of juice against WW, who's got a deeper tank and healing factor that he doesn't.

Originally posted by Q99
I'd say WW in both.

Slugfest, well, she's got the edge.

Full fight, she can protect against telepathy, and the lasso can grab intangeable, and she gains multiple attacks over just a slugfest.


The biggest reason I'd say, though, is endurance. J'onn gets tired out easier and often when he does use all of his powers rapidly, he's exhausted afterwards (not all the time, but often). He's a strong character but he'll run out of juice against WW, who's got a deeper tank and healing factor that he doesn't.
lolwut? When did j'onn get exhausted after using his powers? Are you serious with healing factor? Diana doesn't have a HF outside gaining sustenance from earth under byrne. Manhunter's HF puts wolverine's HF to shame when its been used.

Originally posted by abhilegend
lolwut? When did j'onn get exhausted after using his powers?

JLA: A Midsummer's Nightmare comes to mind, where he almost collapses from overuse.

And ever notice how most of the time he uses a bunch of powers in a row, it's only for a short time, and the longer the fight the more likely he starts not-using some of his powers?



Her wounds a GL inflicted on her in Simone's run went from looking very significant and visible (big bleeding cuts, bruising, etc.) to, a few pages later (during which little time passed but she did headbutt a spacecraft), barely scratches remaining and she's helping the GL walk.

Against Superman in Sacrifice, she went from significantly injured to able to fight multiple Alpha-level OMACs (the ones meant to take on people like her and Superman, the really strong ones) at full capacity a short time later.




His healing is consciously using his powers, though. It replaces what's lost, it doesn't return his stamina.



Anyway, endurance wise in general, I rate her higher. Practically all the fights in the Rise of the Olympian story were in the same day, meaning she, starting out, lost to Genocide and was significantly injured, then fought Genocide again, then fought Cheetah, then Achilles, then finally Genocide again. Then she fought some sea monsters.

Except against Achilles, she was injured in each battle, yet by the last one she was fighting essentially at full.

5 herald battles in one day. Call it endurance or healing factor, it's a lot.

Originally posted by Q99
JLA: A Midsummer's Nightmare comes to mind, where he almost collapses from overuse. Not by overuse, it was from vicinity of fire.

CIS. J'onn has fought for days using almost everyone of his powers against Parademons.



Not a HF, artist simply forgot to paint her in blood. Happens almost every times a character without a HF is injured severaly.

Not HF. Heck, a graze on her cheek was present for the whole fight and beyond where superman HV'd her. @ alpha level OMACs. At that time they were little else than random fodders.




No, it isn't. Its a natural trait of all martians from Ostrander's run. Who's talking about stamina? Its about his HF. People with HF don't nearly die from a sword to the gut or bleed out from gun shots.



Of course you would. She was healed by purple ray in between while she was nearly killed IIRC and even after that had gauntlet of atlas to increase her strength and endurance. Great improvement from WW 162 where she was KTFO by a random sea monster, I believe.

J'onn has several such moments.

I call it "lying through your teeth". Suits you.

You're both wrong.

Also, keep it civil.

Originally posted by -Pr-
You're both wrong.

Also, keep it civil. Wrong about what exactly?

I'm keeping it civil.

MM in both

MM can't beat WW in a slugfest, that's just crazy
With powers WW has the lasso for the instant win,
Without the lasso she still beats him though.

Originally posted by h1a8
MM can't beat WW in a slugfest, that's just crazy
With powers WW has the lasso for the instant win,
Without the lasso she still beats him though.

He can amp with the Earth, and she won't get her bracelets if its just punching.

Lasso's nice..until he phases out of it, like a White Martian does:

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/103208/2655413-6.png

Or shapeshifts out of it:

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/1650540-new_picture__29__super.jpg

Incidentally, earlier in that second scan, he had already knocked out WW.

Context: That's J'onn, with a sliver of Malefa'ak (sp?) within his mind.

MM

j'onn

The artist 'accidentally' drew a gradual fading?



Hm, she used purple ray? Maybe after the first, but *not* between the 2nd Geno fight, the Cheetah fight, the Achilles fight, and the third Geno fight.

And no, she never used the gauntlet. It didn't show up during Gail's run.



Call it what you want, doesn't change what happened.


WW's still got very significant endurance.


Oh yea, and we know who Batman thinks would win:
http://www.picamatic.com/show/2008/10/23/08/07/1230096_300x564.jpg

(Note who else is in the room when he says it)

John is clearly more powerful than Wonder Woman just as she's definitely more formidable, on average anyways. Tbf to John, a lot of the time he's punked, it has to do with fire.

Originally posted by Q99
The artist 'accidentally' drew a gradual fading? What's your point here exactly? That wasn't a HF showing for diana and she never had one to begin with.



Now when I re-read that arc, she didn't use it at all but relied on gauntlets to increase her endurance. Genocide phucked her so badly in the first fight that while wearing gauntlets, she was having troubles with cheetah and said that she could barely feel her legs in the same fight two issues later.

Look closer
http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr138/fangirl102/WWV30280910.jpg


Still meh.

Didn't help against white martians.



facepalm
What is with WW fans and random statements? I can show you j'onn restraining diana and orion simultaneously. Also at least 5 people claiming that he is more powerful than superman. What are these statements supposed to prove?

Batman also thinks WW beats Superman.

He be crushing on her.

MM.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Batman also thinks WW beats Superman.

He be crushing on her.

The hell he does.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/54965/1907981-faster_hand_to_hand_reactions_than_superman_super.jpg

Ok, perhaps not beat in a fight....but beat in hth reflexes.

The logic behind their reasoning for Diana's superiority is sound, but doesn't make much sense when placed against Superman's higher end feats.

It's less a feat for Diana's h2h speed, more a testimony to how much supes holds back

Imho

Wonder Woman reflexes are unmatched...Superman flight speed vs anyone on the JLA is unmatched. Batman comment was right on point.

Yah. Bats compares Bruce Lee to Bolt, but they're both humans. Its like comparing Bruce to a rifle bullet..

Originally posted by carver9
Wonder Woman reflexes are unmatched...Superman flight speed vs anyone on the JLA is unmatched. Batman comment was right on point.
Not this shit again.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/54965/1907981-faster_hand_to_hand_reactions_than_superman_super.jpg

Ok, perhaps not beat in a fight....but beat in hth reflexes.

Yeah, a biased writer wanting to get back at fanboys overrules evidence.

Not.

Lol. Another explanation is simply that Batman is wrong - he could be having an off day! I just wanted that out there to show just because Batman thinks it so, does not make it true.

Abhi has already brought it up, but there are tons of statements saying MM is the most dangerous member etc etc of the JLA.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol. Another explanation is simply that Batman is wrong - he could be having an off day! I just wanted that out there to show just because Batman thinks it so, does not make it true.

Abhi has already brought it up, but there are tons of statements saying MM is the most dangerous member etc etc of the JLA.

He had the flu and hadn't had his tylenol.

Batman also once said that Ten eyed man was "the most dangerous man alive"! It was also backed up by narration!

Batman's really like the World's Fifth Greatest Detective.

Prior statement that J'onn collapsing in A Midsummer's Nightmare due to fire- False.

There were some fires, at a distance, but he was fighting just fine. Then he got pissed at his opponents, took them out with telepathy, collapsed, Aquaman says, "Easy J'onn, that stunt took a lot out of you," and then he regains his footing and recovers, without moving or anything.

Just use of his powers did the job.




So... serious wounds just 'happen' to gradually fade to nothing over short periods of times? And not just vanish between pages, but do so gradually.

Or, seriously wounded against Superman, a bit of time is all she needs to be back at full and fight high-level enemies the same day?

Heck, if that's not fast healing, that speaks to her shrugging off some pretty crazy damage! It's good feats either way.



What are the statements where characters outright, in-universe, compare these two characters supposed to prove?

I like that you act indignant about the fact that in-universe statements are being used.

Anyway, they're just thrown in support of fight performance, where Diana generally shows more endurance (taking lots of damage and keeping going is something of a thing for her... and, no offense to J'onn, but he gets worfed a lot). And where Superman generally does better than either of them.


Btw, I fully believe J'onn can become as or more powerful than Superman... for a short time. Using all of his powers at once, going 'afterburner' on his endurance, in short, allows him to outperform anyone in the League. He just never does that in a long fight, and using his powers does use up endurance more than simple punching or such does for the others, so he'll tire himself out.


Originally posted by -Pr-
Yeah, a biased writer wanting to get back at fanboys overrules evidence.

Not.

See, this just seems like lazy arguing. No actual evidence that it's fanboyish, but since it says something good about a character, it *must* be so!


It even fits with WWs and Supes fights, where WW tends to avoid more blows and score more hits, but Superman hits harder and has advantages like heat vision and better flight skills ... it's not a statement that she's overall more powerful or anything, just how they compare in a specific area.


Anyway! This isn't about WW vs Superman, but WW vs MM. Martian Manhunter is a step down from Superman.



Quite frankly, there's statements saying almost any member of the JLA is potentially the most dangerous. Including, repeatedly, Plastic Man.


But if, say, Superman is on a rampage, who do they send to stop him? Wonder Woman. Or Captain Marvel. Not J'onn.

If they're afraid that Wonder Woman is controlled, who do they send against her? Superman. Even if J'onn is in the room, he doesn't object to the statement that only Superman can do so.

Originally posted by Q99


But if, say, Superman is on a rampage, who do they send to stop him? Wonder Woman. Or Captain Marvel. Not J'onn.

Well, yeah, sending a guy who's weak against fire....against a guy who has HV is kinda stupid lol.



Yeah, but then, I put it down to J'onn never being used, as its better to see a WW/Superman fight. I mean, with that argument, who is J'onn sent to take down?

Look at what happened when J'onn cuts loose, as Fernus.

Originally posted by Q99
See, this just seems like lazy arguing. No actual evidence that it's fanboyish, but since it says something good about a character, it *must* be so!


It even fits with WWs and Supes fights, where WW tends to avoid more blows and score more hits, but Superman hits harder and has advantages like heat vision and better flight skills ... it's not a statement that she's overall more powerful or anything, just how they compare in a specific area.


Anyway! This isn't about WW vs Superman, but WW vs MM. Martian Manhunter is a step down from Superman.

You believing that it's lazy, or that it fits with the fights, doesn't make it so, tbh. That, and I disagree, but you knew that.

Especially seeing as McDuffie was seen arguing the point on message boards, and, admitted that he's nerfed Superman when writing him.

To call a spade a spade, some WW fans desperately try to defend McDuffie, because it's one of the few instances where Diana is given preference over Superman.

"But that's how Superman should be portrayed" they say.

My arse.

Originally posted by Q99
Prior statement that J'onn collapsing in A Midsummer's Nightmare due to fire- False.

There were some fires, at a distance, but he was fighting just fine. Then he got pissed at his opponents, took them out with telepathy, collapsed, Aquaman says, "Easy J'onn, that stunt took a lot out of you," and then he regains his footing and recovers, without moving or anything.

Just use of his powers did the job. Which scene was this? I'm sure I haven't seen this when I read that story. Anyway that reeks of PIS. I would post scans tonight.




Nice deflections, but diana don't have a HF. End of story.



Nothing.

Indignant? More like laughing.

Name one fight where diana benefitted from her endurance more than j'onn against a common enemy. He's superman.


Totally false on all accounts.




This never ceases to amuse me.


So? Diana is too.



Not as much as j'onn.


Restraining=/=beating. J'onn was said to be the most powerful being in JLA by the same writer in WW.

Originally posted by -Pr-
You believing that it's lazy, or that it fits with the fights, doesn't make it so, tbh. That, and I disagree, but you knew that.

Especially seeing as McDuffie was seen arguing the point on message boards, and, admitted that he's nerfed Superman when writing him.

To be fair, just because you disagree with the writer doesn't make it so either. He went out of his way to write this twice. That is the reality in his stories, whether you like it or not. Both arguments are moot now though given the reboot.

As for this match up, I think it's a toss up. If the lasso really can grab J'onn while he is intangible then I give it to Diana.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
To be fair, just because you disagree with the writer doesn't make it so either. He went out of his way to write this twice. That is the reality in his stories, whether you like it or not. Both arguments are moot now though given the reboot.

As for this match up, I think it's a toss up. If the lasso really can grab J'onn while he is intangible then I give it to Diana.
A biased writer doesn't changes years of continuity and proofs with a monologue and an empty statement.

Originally posted by armedforbattle
Slugfest definitely goes to WW.
Standard goes to MM

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
The logic behind their reasoning for Diana's superiority is sound, but doesn't make much sense when placed against Superman's higher end feats.

Even without the higher end feats, his logic is that Superman has straight line speed, and Diana has reflex speed, which is flawed given how Supermans speed extends beyond moving in a straight line.

If Batman was comparing Green Lantern to Wonder Woman, than he'd have a point, given that it was admitted Kyle Rayner was their fastest flier in Circle of Fire..

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/7/71535/2033655-superman_v2_211__2005___team_dcp__pg17.jpg

Superman's speed vs WW reflexes is a close one but still I would go with supes. However, she could clean a kitchen faster.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/7/71535/2033655-superman_v2_211__2005___team_dcp__pg17.jpg

Superman's speed vs WW reflexes is a close one but still I would go with supes. However, she could clean a kitchen faster.

That's the most epic b**** slap in the history of comic books.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
That's the most epic b**** slap in the history of comic books.

Yeah it says "there is the kitchen, go and make me a sandwich, biatch!"

Guys, the sexism really isn't warranted...

Originally posted by -Pr-
Guys, the sexism really isn't warranted...

KK

But she tried to play with his Ball, without his permission, just sayin.

Originally posted by abhilegend
A biased writer doesn't changes years of continuity and proofs with a monologue and an empty statement.

He can if he so chooses. Him being the writer and all. And I love how he is "biased" because he is of an unpopular opinion. It is a writer prerogative. And it isn't something so off the wall as to be completely dismissed.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
He can if he so chooses. Him being the writer and all. And I love how he is "biased" because he is of an unpopular opinion. It is a writer prerogative. And it isn't something so off the wall as to be completely dismissed.

He can portray it in the book he's writing, if he so chooses. As a writer, that's his choice.

It doesn't negate what came before it though.

It is a bad analogy on Batman's part, though.

Those boobs.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
He can if he so chooses. Him being the writer and all. And I love how he is "biased" because he is of an unpopular opinion. It is a writer prerogative. And it isn't something so off the wall as to be completely dismissed.
He can't change continuity by his lonesome by a monologue and an empty statement.

J'onn sends her back to the kitchen.

WW wins, faster in combat and much better skilled.

Originally posted by Brockalizer
J'onn sends her back to the kitchen.



But yeah, a well written MM should beat just about any brick. A poorly written MM that forgets about half his powers loses..

Originally posted by h1a8
WW wins, faster in combat and much better skilled.

Unless you're up against an opponent who negates any physical advantages you may have.

Originally posted by h1a8
WW wins, faster in combat and much better skilled. J'onn is much more versatile.. strengtb, decent seed, smarts, TP, and intangibility. If he uses his abilities wisely he should have no problem.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/7/71535/2033655-superman_v2_211__2005___team_dcp__pg17.jpg

Superman's speed vs WW reflexes is a close one but still I would go with supes. However, she could clean a kitchen faster. I love how comics promote the idea that hitting women is okay if they don't do what they're told.

j'onn

hoping j'onn has some feats soon

Originally posted by Brockalizer
J'onn is much more versatile.. strengtb, decent seed, smarts, TP, and intangibility. If he uses his abilities wisely he should have no problem.
decent seed? i don't understand what that means.
TP won't work on WW
He's not going to affect WW when he is intangible, also he will materialize sometime (the lasso can still get him though
Nothing else he has that Diana don't have a defense for.
Diana will stomp him when he fights materialized. She is faster in combat and much more skilled.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Unless you're up against an opponent who negates any physical advantages you may have.

MM doesn't negate those advantages since HE WILL fight materialized (his character). It he doesn't then he can't affect WW anyway and thus she can't lose.

It's not out of character for J'onn to go intangible.

Originally posted by h1a8
decent seed? i don't understand what that means.
TP won't work on WW
He's not going to affect WW when he is intangible, also he will materialize sometime (the lasso can still get him though
Nothing else he has that Diana don't have a defense for.
Diana will stomp him when he fights materialized. She is faster in combat and much more skilled.



MM doesn't negate those advantages since HE WILL fight materialized (his character). It he doesn't then he can't affect WW anyway and thus she can't lose.

He meant speed. And whilst you could point to some cases of her resisting telepathy, Maxwell Lord mindwiped all memory of his existence from her head, so that only certain people knew of him. And he ghosts out of the lasso, like the White Martians did. And he already has KOed her and used her as a club against Superman before...

preboot Diana was completely immune to telepathy. Not that he can't beat her, though.

Originally posted by -Pr-
preboot Diana was completely immune to telepathy. Not that he can't beat her, though.

Maxwell Lord mindwiped her (along with MM, of course).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Maxwell Lord mindwiped her (along with MM, of course).

Yeah, which is retarded and completely contradictory.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He meant speed. And whilst you could point to some cases of her resisting telepathy, Maxwell Lord mindwiped all memory of his existence from her head, so that only certain people knew of him. And he ghosts out of the lasso, like the White Martians did. And he already has KOed her and used her as a club against Superman before...
When did "koing and used as club" happened? I don't recall that.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Yeah, which is retarded and completely contradictory.
Genocide also affected her with telepathy/emotion control. Only rucka wrote her as nearly immune to telepathy I think.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Genocide also affected her with telepathy/emotion control. Only rucka wrote her as nearly immune to telepathy I think.

I remember one of the writers flat out stating on panel that she had immunity.

I didn't read the Genocide arc. Oh well.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I remember one of the writers flat out stating on panel that she had immunity.

I didn't read the Genocide arc. Oh well.
That's rucka when he gave her eyes of pallas talking about how Maxwell can't affect her because she sees with the eyes of a goddess. It only stuck as long as jonn's fire immunity.

Didn't realise Rucka was back on the book post IC... Oh well.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Didn't realise Rucka was back on the book post IC... Oh well.
He wasn't. He wrote it before IC. He wrote WW:Blackest night where he completely assasinated her character, making her like a teenager having a crush on batman and had Mera stalemate her in pure strength test. It was garbage.

He has mindwiped WW before:

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/103208/2648962-1.png

And as for the KOing of WW, was off-panel:

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/103208/2650658-3.png

He was possessed by Malefic. So in character? Maybe not. But physically able to? Why not...

Originally posted by abhilegend
He wasn't. He wrote it before IC. He wrote WW:Blackest night where he completely assasinated her character, making her like a teenager having a crush on batman and had Mera stalemate her in pure strength test. It was garbage.

I'm talking about a post IC book. I don't remember the name of the issue though. I'll have to look for it.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He wasn't. He wrote it before IC. He wrote WW:Blackest night where he completely assasinated her character, making her like a teenager having a crush on batman and had Mera stalemate her in pure strength test. It was garbage.

Phuck that tie in.

It really pissed me off reading it. Get that Bruce/Diana shipping da hell outta here.

As for combat speed from MM...well, he can go blow for blow with Barry Allen. Yes, Flash is crazy - but so is MM.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/103208/2648425-2.png
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/103208/2648426-3.png

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Phuck that tie in.

It really pissed me off reading it. Get that Bruce/Diana shipping da hell outta here.
Totally agree.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Phuck that tie in.

It really pissed me off reading it. Get that Bruce/Diana shipping da hell outta here.

It was shit.

MM's only way to win is through telepathy. Even with all his other powers, I'd take WW if it were not for the tp.

He's fast enough to keep up with Barry Allen in fighting
He can shrink to a subatomic particle, then grow again
He can regenerate from an arm
He's as strong as Superman (perhaps a notch below?)
She still needs to breathe - he can suffocate her by shapeshifting around her
He can phase into her head, or out of her lasso (her main hax weapon)

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He's fast enough to keep up with Barry Allen in fighting
He can shrink to a subatomic particle, then grow again
He can regenerate from an arm
He's as strong as Superman (perhaps a notch below?)
She still needs to breathe - he can suffocate her by shapeshifting around her
He can phase into her head, or out of her lasso (her main hax weapon) This

I think maybe the odds would be about as even as can be here. They both seem to have talents, counters and defenses that really make this close. Interesting match-up.

Bump.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He's fast enough to keep up with Barry Allen in fighting
He can shrink to a subatomic particle, then grow again
He can regenerate from an arm
He's as strong as Superman (perhaps a notch below?)
She still needs to breathe - he can suffocate her by shapeshifting around her
He can phase into her head, or out of her lasso (her main hax weapon)

By powerset I'd give him 7 or 8 out of 10.

In an actual comic he'd have about 3/10 chance of winning and that's being generous. I feel sorry for MM because they just make him lose so often when by rights he should do much better.

Nah, he has actually knocked her out before and used her as a club against Superman.

http://i.imgur.com/t3Qx0Nh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/eNZa3I1.jpg



If anything wonder woman's record against Martians is horrible.

Lol I half expected bruce to take that punch in stride. Refreshing to see a somewhat realistic interpretation of what would happen if batman was in these situations.

For martians, she handled the White Martian at the start of Morrison's run pretty easily.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Genocide also affected her with telepathy/emotion control. Only rucka wrote her as nearly immune to telepathy I think.


Genocide affected her emotions, but note that Diana was the only one immune to Genocide's more intense powers, which she used to turn Donna Troy against Diana, mess with Etta Candy, and KO John Stewart.

Later in the run, she also used the lasso to make herself immune to the effects of the Children of Ares, who turned an aztec flying serpent and Power Girl against her.

Bruce tanking Martian Vision and rocking MM with a kick (again)...

Btw, JLA, League of One: Diana lassos J'onn, makes him revert to his true form (dunno why), punches him once, and then unlassoes him and throws him on a teleporter while he's stunned from the single punch.

Wonder Woman wins.

While I think J'onn really should win, Diana would be more likely imo.

^

Originally posted by Q99
For martians, she handled the White Martian at the start of Morrison's run pretty easily.




Genocide affected her emotions, but note that Diana was the only one immune to Genocide's more intense powers, which she used to turn Donna Troy against Diana, mess with Etta Candy, and KO John Stewart.

Later in the run, she also used the lasso to make herself immune to the effects of the Children of Ares, who turned an aztec flying serpent and Power Girl against her.
By outlasting her. She was also oneshotted by Trionix's martian vision. Later a random martian was doing the same to her untill superman saved her.

Also those feats of Genocide are pretty meh. Affecting Donna Troy? She KOED John via lasso.
Originally posted by Q99
Btw, JLA, League of One: Diana lassos J'onn, makes him revert to his true form (dunno why), punches him once, and then unlassoes him and throws him on a teleporter while he's stunned from the single punch.
Total sucker shot. Martians in their natural forms are much weaker to the point parademons have beaten them.

Originally posted by -Pr-
While I think J'onn really should win, Diana would be more likely imo.

This.

J'onn really should be the most powerful leaguer, but no one will write him that way. (Although the current flock of writers really seem like they get a kick out of making her look pretty weak. He might have a shot! )

If Diana still has her tp immunity and the lasso retained its hax mode, I think it would actually be a very, very interesting fight. Minus those, J'onn should win on paper.

That's the problem with potential; it ain't shit until you live up to it.

Originally posted by abhilegend
By outlasting her. She was also oneshotted by Trionix's martian vision. Later a random martian was doing the same to her untill superman saved her.

Also those feats of Genocide are pretty meh. Affecting Donna Troy? She KOED John via lasso.

Total sucker shot. Martians in their natural forms are much weaker to the point parademons have beaten them.

And we've also seen martians go head to head with Superman in their native forms.

Yea, yea, you count things done by WW less than things done against her, we know. You're just too unreliable a source on these matters.



'Affected' as in Donna was mind-twisted into hated Diana and used against her. Now, considering that Donna's very strong willed, stronger willed than Etrigan, overcoming her mind and re-writing her loyalty is pretty solid.

Originally posted by -Pr-
While I think J'onn really should win, Diana would be more likely imo.
that's all that needs to be said in a comic fight at least

Originally posted by Q99
And we've also seen martians go head to head with Superman in their native forms.

Yea, yea, you count things done by WW less than things done against her, we know. You're just too unreliable a source on these matters.



'Affected' as in Donna was mind-twisted into hated Diana and used against her. Now, considering that Donna's very strong willed, stronger willed than Etrigan, overcoming her mind and re-writing her loyalty is pretty solid.
No, we've not. The monstrous white martian form isn't their natural state.


LOLWUT? Trionix didn't oneshot wonder woman or a random martian didn't have her in trouble untill superman stepped in?

http://i.imgur.com/Yhu7zAE.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/om2rKbd.jpg


I've never seen someone so ignorant try to accuse someone else being unreliable.

Being more willed than Etrigan isn't anything to be proud about, he doesn't has a very good record of having a willpower. She is still a meta level character at best.

Poor John, he has never live up to his hype, not even on the silver age, it has always been the same with him.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He's fast enough to keep up with Barry Allen in fighting
He can shrink to a subatomic particle, then grow again
He can regenerate from an arm
He's as strong as Superman (perhaps a notch below?)
She still needs to breathe - he can suffocate her by shapeshifting around her
He can phase into her head, or out of her lasso (her main hax weapon)



Not to mention he could armor up with metals and grow shields and stabby weapons.

He pierced right through Etrigans chest, who's fairly durable. (Not to mention Diana isn't bullet proof, even though she should be..)

And everyone forgets he can go invisible. Knocked out The Weird using it, and ambushed Etrigan.

Btw, really bad idea- She can then lightning-of-Zeus him no problem. Cutting free may also be possible, but he'd be zapped massively by the bracers.




In case you miss the storyline, pretty much every Leaguer got taken out quickly when Martians backshotted them or similar just as they did Diana... then took out Martians later when they went head-on. Which, she does, without any real problem.

Sure, a White Martian who got her from behind gave her trouble, til Superman got it from behind. Here's a thing- a martian from behind will take down almost every herald, they're very powerful. No-one's saying that a martian can't do so. You're just ignoring that she also has had no problem beating martians when they aren't attacking from behind and she's taking them head-on. You mistake 'attacked from behind' with less powerful and ignore the times when she does take them head on.



And yet, you're consistently wrong due to consistently leaving out half the story. Inconvenient facts and all that.

You're confusing 'includes stuff you leave out' as ignorant.




Who's beat down Superwoman. Odd definition of 'meta level,' and further illustrating how it's you who's ignorant.



You keep being wrong with examples that show you're wrong.

WW's lasso has held intangible beings if I'm not mistaken. WW has the speed advantage.
Other than that if she rocks him good with a blow then the odds are in her favor since she is a MA.
I say WW 7-8/10

Originally posted by Q99

In case you miss the storyline, pretty much every Leaguer got taken out quickly when Martians backshotted them or similar just as they did Diana... then took out Martians later when they went head-on. Haha, what? Kyle oneshotted the martian sent to take him out and so did Wally. Superman backhanded stunned Primaid. What story you read? Wally and Kyle were taken out when J'onn shapeshifted in Fluxus and cheapshotted them. Except not, she held her in one place untill Primaid got out of breath. Its not by her own power.

Except the martian didn't attack her from behind. She walked into its trap.

http://i.imgur.com/RbPCEl6.jpg

Honestly I've never seen someone lying so much and then calling someone unreliable. Also superman grabbed the martian from behind and made his presence known.

And it wasn't an attack from behind. Like when? Malefic could've killed her with a direct MV strike according to superman and it still stunned her even after she blocked it.

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/Jimscomics101.jpg
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/Jimscomics102.jpg

Later J'onn knocked her out as seen here.

http://i.imgur.com/t3Qx0Nh.jpg


Name one time she has beaten a martian under her own power.

You repeating something doesn't means its true. What facts exactly?

Name these "left out stuff".




Who has no feat of her own? Getting oneshotted by wonder woman twice isn't a good resume. Also she didn't beat superwoman either. Just post one feat from Superwoman that screams herald level.



At this point, your excuses are just outright laughable. But tell me more about how Martians took out kyle or wally easily here.

http://i.imgur.com/rvXXs2c.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/QB7X2fm.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/41m8OFE.jpg

Or how Wally didn't oneshot Zum here.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/zumimp.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/zumimp2.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/zumimp3.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/zumimp4.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/zumimp5.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/zumimp6.jpg



I mean just how many times I've to prove you wrong and you keep spouting the same thing as "LOLZ BRO, ME AM RIGHT AND YOU AM WRONG." Hint: keep repeating things doesn't makes you right. Proving it does.

Manjobber wins.