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* this is not really a versus battle but a subject for discussion... the moderators can move this to a more appropriate forum if they want to...

* after all that happened in the AvX event, is Wolverine more of an Avenger? or an X-men? you can answer safely as "both" but if you can choose a side and defend it, much better...

* for me, at first, he might be if not the best X-man, one of the best X-men that really put the team on charts, arguably with Xavier and Cyclops... but recently, it was seen that his ties with the Avengers looks like as if it was stronger... seems to me, eventhough most of his years are with the X-men, he's more of an Avenger as of late...

* discuss...

He will always be an X-men to me. I don't like how they put him on the Avengers, same with Spidey and Ben.

2nd

A "new avengers" movie would do 2 times better in cinemas than avengers. Im ok with Logan, Ben and Pete being on the team.

Idk about that, I do hope they make a heroes for hire movie

They should kill him off.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
He will always be an X-men to me. I don't like how they put him on the Avengers, same with Spidey and Ben.

3rd

Originally posted by Silent Master
They should kill him off.
This. He can FOaD for all I care after the way he acted in AvX.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Idk about that, I do hope they make a heroes for hire movie You doubt it? Imagine they announce a movie with Wolverine and Spider-man in it. That alone is a guarantee.

Spiderman is the biggest moneymaker marvel has but cap and possibly ironman are above Logan with the random movie going audiance

Lately Iron Man is marvels biggest money maker. But hulk Thor and Cap are gaining mainstream popularity lately too. If spider man and wolverine (on top of ant-man and GotG) were in avengers 2 it would break every movie record ever known.

Iron Man is currently the top dog in terms of popularity and money making as far as Marvel is concerned.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Iron Man is currently the top dog in terms of popularity and money making as far as Marvel is concerned.
No doubt. He was the big push that comic movies needed to go mainstream

Originally posted by zopzop
This. He can FOaD for all I care after the way he acted in AvX.

He was the only one in AvX who wasn't acting like a complete moron. facepalm

He's an X-Men, but the ideally the main Avengers roster should be a play ground for all big dogs of the company to interact in one book. Spider-man, Iron Man, Wolverine, Cap, Thor, Hulk and whatever flavor of the month female character they are trying to push at the time is. Same with JLA, I want Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash and GL on the roster... don't much care about the logistics, just make it happen.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He was the only one in AvX who wasn't acting like a complete moron. facepalm

He's an X-Men, but the ideally the main Avengers roster should be a play ground for all big dogs of the company to interact in one book. Spider-man, Iron Man, Wolverine, Cap, Thor, Hulk and whatever flavor of the month female character they are trying to push at the time is. Same with JLA, I want Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash and GL on the roster.

I agree with this.

It was the whole reasoning why Bendis created the New Avengers to begin with. Wolverine and Spider-Man are two of Marvel's biggest properties and characters and from a sales point of view, belonged on the flagship title of the Marvel Universe. While I don't think either of them should take precedence over the core Avengers, I don't have any issues with them being on the team.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Iron Man is currently the top dog in terms of popularity and money making as far as Marvel is concerned. Not really. Spider-Man movies outperform Iron man at the box office.

Sony has Spider-man, so Marvel doesn't care.

I can live with Spidey as an avenger. Prefer that Wolverine wasn't though. Definitely not Ben.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Not really. Spider-Man movies outperform Iron man at the box office.


Spidey did actually pretty good at the BO for a reboot. Comic sales the same?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He was the only one in AvX who wasn't acting like a complete moron.

* like preparing to kill Hope and betraying by contacting the Avengers on the moon? i thought everyone in AvX was acting like a complete moron...

Originally posted by peejayd
* like preparing to kill Hope and betraying by contacting the Avengers on the moon? i thought everyone in AvX was acting like a complete moron...

How was being prepared to kill phoenix avatar, and turning Hope over to the Avengers, Wolverine acting stupid? facepalm

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
How was being prepared to kill phoenix avatar, and turning Hope over to the Avengers, Wolverine acting stupid? facepalm

* uhm, because it happened right after Schism where he split the X-men in two because he now hates killing or letting the children fight... and the only solution he has for the AvX event is to kill Hope, man, he's worse than Cap at that point...

* i don't know, srank, but it seems Cyke was being pushed to be a villain yet in the end, his actions was right all along, both in Schism and in AvX...

Originally posted by peejayd
* uhm, because it happened right after Schism where he split the X-men in two because he now hates killing or letting the children fight... and the only solution he has for the AvX event is to kill Hope, man, he's worse than Cap at that point...

* i don't know, srank, but it seems Cyke was being pushed to be a villain yet in the end, his actions was right all along, both in Schism and in AvX...

What correlation and perceived hypocrisy do you imagine exists between being opposed to the use of child soldiers, and being prepared euthanize the avatar of an entity with the potential to destroy the Universe? Fill me in on the parallels you've drawn here.

The United States condemns the use of child soldiers, but they've encountered them many times in conflicts like Kosovo, Somalia, and Vietnam, and more recently in Iraq and Iran, and when they engage in fire fights with the... they kill them all the same. And that's just children who pose an immediate threat to the soldiers, not the country, not the entire earth, and not all of existence.

Cyclops wasn't right. Hope and the Scarlet Witch banishing the Phoenix Force had the happy coincidence of coinciding with his end game... but he wasn't right. If Scott had said "Let's work together to banish the Phoenix Force!" everyone would have been on board... instead he said "There is a cosmic entity on the way to earth that's burning every civilization it its path to cinders. Let's roll the dice and try to control it!" He wanted to control the Phoenix Force and use it for his own ends... because he was apparently a lunatic.

Also Schism was primarily about Cyclops' lack of leadership abilities, the issue of child soldiers is merely what brought it to a head. Scott completely shirked his responsibilities, first with Idie and then with Hope and the Lights. He didn't give them orders, he let them decide what do and then pretended like that vindicated him. As though letting a bunch of 14 yearolds "choose" to fight, absolves him from the potential consequences. None of those characters were mature enough to make that choice and it never should have been put in front of them in the first place. The part of the brain the governs logical decision making and understanding the consequences of your actions is underdeveloped until your mid-twenties. Scott showcased exceedingly bad leadership in that event.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
What correlation and perceived hypocrisy do you imagine exists between being opposed to the use of child soldiers, and being prepared euthanize the avatar of an entity with the potential to destroy the Universe? Fill me in on the parallels you've drawn here.

The United States condemns the use of child soldiers, but they've encountered them many times in conflicts like Kosovo, Somalia, and Vietnam, and more recently in Iraq and Iran, and when they engage in fire fights with the... they kill them all the same. And that's just children who pose an immediate threat to the soldiers, not the country, not the entire earth, and not all of existence.

Cyclops wasn't right. Hope and the Scarlet Witch banishing the Phoenix Force had the happy coincidence of coinciding with his end game... but he wasn't right. If Scott had said "Let's work together to banish the Phoenix Force!" everyone would have been on board... instead he said "There is a cosmic entity on the way to earth that's burning every civilization it its path to cinders. Let's roll the dice and try to control it!" He wanted to control the Phoenix Force and use it for his own ends... because he was apparently a lunatic.

Also Schism was primarily about Cyclops' lack of leadership abilities, the issue of child soldiers is merely what brought it to a head. Scott completely shirked his responsibilities, first with Idie and then with Hope and the Lights. He didn't give them orders, he let them decide what do and then pretended like that vindicated him. As though letting a bunch of 14 yearolds "choose" to fight, absolves him from the potential consequences. None of those characters were mature enough to make that choice and it never should have been put in front of them in the first place. The part of the brain the governs logical decision making and understanding the consequences of your actions is underdeveloped until your mid-twenties. Scott showcased exceedingly bad leadership in that event.



Scott basically played Russian Roulette with the Earth and its inhabitants, mutants and humans alike, and now throws up the D-X sign while claiming he was right all along.

Guy's jumped the shark completely.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
What correlation and perceived hypocrisy do you imagine exists between being opposed to the use of child soldiers, and being prepared euthanize the avatar of an entity with the potential to destroy the Universe? Fill me in on the parallels you've drawn here.

The United States condemns the use of child soldiers, but they've encountered them many times in conflicts like Kosovo, Somalia, and Vietnam, and more recently in Iraq and Iran, and when they engage in fire fights with the... they kill them all the same. And that's just children who pose an immediate threat to the soldiers, not the country, not the entire earth, and not all of existence.

Cyclops wasn't right. Hope and the Scarlet Witch banishing the Phoenix Force had the happy coincidence of coinciding with his end game... but he wasn't right. If Scott had said "Let's work together to banish the Phoenix Force!" everyone would have been on board... instead he said "There is a cosmic entity on the way to earth that's burning every civilization it its path to cinders. Let's roll the dice and try to control it!" He wanted to control the Phoenix Force and use it for his own ends... because he was apparently a lunatic.

Also Schism was primarily about Cyclops' lack of leadership abilities, the issue of child soldiers is merely what brought it to a head. Scott completely shirked his responsibilities, first with Idie and then with Hope and the Lights. He didn't give them orders, he let them decide what do and then pretended like that vindicated him. As though letting a bunch of 14 yearolds "choose" to fight, absolves him from the potential consequences. None of those characters were mature enough to make that choice and it never should have been put in front of them in the first place. The part of the brain the governs logical decision making and understanding the consequences of your actions is underdeveloped until your mid-twenties. Scott showcased exceedingly bad leadership in that event.
100% agree.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
What correlation and perceived hypocrisy do you imagine exists between being opposed to the use of child soldiers, and being prepared euthanize the avatar of an entity with the potential to destroy the Universe? Fill me in on the parallels you've drawn here.

* gladly... but don't turn this into a personal war, srank... let's stick to the topic, nothing personal... Cyclops is right all along... took most points on other forums though... here it goes:

1 - the Phoenix was coming... Cyclops did not create it... he did not summon it... Cyclops observed/knew/expected that it was coming... blaming him for that is akin to blaming a doctor if he discovered you have cancer... and since the Phoenix was coming anyway, Cyclops was not responsible for harboring it... if Hope would have been killed (or "hidden" in protective custody) the same, if not worse, destruction would have followed...

2 - the Phoenix does evil/destructive things when provoked: Professor X should have known better, the Avengers were ignorant... the P5 brought peace to Earth but the Avengers kept attacking them & then they sought to destroy the Avengers who were ultimately disturbing the peace (and the ones who started this entire war, oh it's true)...

3 - it was the Avengers fault that the Phoenix 5 was even created... Stark's machine... Cyke wouldn't even have been a Phoenix host had Stark not impulsively blow up the entity & spit it...

4 - based on 2 and 3 the turmoil in the world is the Avengers' fault...

5 - Cyclops was right that the Phoenix would restore the mutant race (Stark admitted that later on in Consequences)... there is nothing, even the faintest indication, that it's mission could have been stopped - even when Hope took it on as a host, the options were (1) to contain the power (and go all insane like previous Phoenixes until millions of people die) or (2) break it up (which jumpstarts the mutants again)... given those two options, Cyclops opted not only for what was best for the mutant race, but also for the Earth as a whole... yes, his plan involved some collateral damage, but he identified the plan with the least collateral damage possible... on the other hand, the Avengers' plan is to: hide Hope, kill Hope, tick off the Cosmic Force of Destruction, give Phoenix Power to people who are not prepared to handle it, and pick fights with the people doing remarkable good in the world because it's "too much, too fast"... all stood to ultimately cause much, much more damage than Scott's plan of letting Hope handle it... in fact, essentially every bit of destruction that happened during AvX could have been avoided if the Avengers would have listened to the X-Men esp to Cyclops, who are the people on the planet that have the most experience dealing with the Phoenix... but Captain Steve "Ego" Rogers couldn't accept that somebody else might know better than him...

6 - the P5 were corrupted from the beginning, even Cyclops is aware that he can get a good lawyer to defend himself but he chose to stay in custody (until Sinister revealed him/herself and Jake his friend got killed)...

7 - ironcally, getting rid of the Phoenix may have been a bad idea... Hope could have restored the Mutant race without Scarlet Witch's help (debatable, but has a very high possibility)... Hope already had the ability to awaken/speed up mutant evolution, and with PF, she could have done the same... we don't even know what Cable's bad future entailed... not to mention, Cable himself - who's from the future - told Scott to protect Hope from the Avengers... he told Scott that Hope is the Phoenix and the Mutant Messiah, and that is Scott's faith (the faith which Stark acquired when he can't think of anything to stop Phoenix Cyclops)...

8 - as P5, they ended world hunger, gave free renewable energy to the world, effectively created world peace, stopped earthquakes (although this was a writer error, which they admitted was stupid, since this isn't scientifically possible)... Cyclops was 100% fine as the Phoenix for the majority of this event... and the combined efforts of Wanda and Hope, although they managed to slow Dark Phoenix Cyclops down, they can't stop him... Scott, after hearing Jean's voice somehow went back to his senses, relinquished the PF and allowed himself to be defeated...

9 - Scott didn't restore mutants... it was already explained they were unable to reactive the X-Gene as long as the Phoenix was split among the five of them... the Phoenix was sent to Earth to get its host and restore mutants... they stated this in Uncanny X-Men... and Tony acknowledged he knew it was going to restore mutants in AvX Consequences #4... case closed...

* what people aren't understanding is that, this may have been what Scott wanted, but it was 100% out of his hands... mutants were going to come back, whether he wanted it or not... and Scott was just d@mn right about it... and that's what Scott's DX sign is all about...

* in Schism... Cyclops was right still... Wolverine was stunned in Scott's rebuttal of morality... Wolverine blames Scott when he "goaded" Idie to do what she thought was right...

Logan: she (Idie) killed a dozen men in there. that's on you.
Scott: any civilian casualities?
Logan: lucky for you, no.
Scott: then she also saved a hundred lives.
Logan: she should've never been in that position!
Scott: you're right. you should've been there yourself, instead of off in some bar.

* this event can be paralleled as Logan choosing to prioritize Idie (not making her kill anyone) and letting hundred civilians die... just like Scott choosing to train Hope to control the PF and have the world at stake... same logic, same thinking, same judgment... when Logan did it, it's okay... when Scott did it, he's a criminal...

* this is not "bad leadership", srank... that is an excellent decision from a leader that thinks the least collateral damage of the scenario...

* in the latter part...

Scott: the kids saved the day. i was right. you were wrong. i'd like to hear you say it.
Logan: the kids beat one sentinel. that doesn't change a damn thing.

* what? it does! Scott rallied the young mutants to stand their ground and defend their base, their home... motivating them that they can do it, they can beat the huge sentinel... while Logan wants to blow Utopia up and run away (nice plan, huh?)... in the end, Cyclops was right, the kids defeated the sentinel... Scott knew it, Logan knew it, every X-men knew it... yet Scott was still branded as someone who would condone murder without remorse... and still, he respected Logan, but Logan treats him like crap:

Scott: what do you want? you want elections? let me and you both make our cases and let everyone vote for who they want. i'll do it.
Scott: if you'll just get off your damn high horse and be reasonable.
Logan: i don't want your job, Scott. i don't want any part of what you're doing here. not anymore.
Logan: i'm leaving.

* you see, Wolverine is not always right because he is Wolverine... Captain America is not always right because he is Captain America (*cough* Civil War *cough* Reed Richards slapped this in their faces in their Illuminati meeting)... and the Avengers are not always right because they are the Avengers...

* the only unfortunate event here is that, Scott is always the sacrificial lamb created to be a leader that is always stuck on making tough (i mean, really really tough) decisions and there's someone on the other side ends up getting hurt...

* and you can argue without attacking my person, srank... stay on track, deal with the issues only... be mature, man...

Originally posted by peejayd
*Snipped for Letter Count*

Unless you take my calling Cyclops a lunatic as an insult towards you, there is no personal digs or "attacks against your person" in the post you are responding too. I mean... you don't think you are Cyclops, do you?

Anyway your entire post is a wall of virtually indecipherable nonsense. I barely even know where to start with this garbage...

Scott didn't create nor summon the Phoenix Force? Yeah... so what? How does that justify him sitting around like the leader of some lunatic suicide cult? Everyone knows what the Phoenix is, and what the Phoenix does. Cyclops' plain was completely insane.

Scott wasn't right. That is a completely asinine and illogical argument to make. Like Jack just said, Cyclops' was playing Russian Roulette with the earth and every single living being on it. The fact that mostly everyone survived, doesn't make him right. Is a drunk driver "right," if he manages drives home without killing a family of four? I don't think so. The lack of negative consequences doesn't vindicate him. Even if every thing had gone step for step the way Cyclops wanted things to go... he still would have been wrong. The entire stance the Avengers were taking was that the risk of disaster far out weighed any potential benefit, but Scott leveraged the lives of every one on earth against the Phoenix anyway.

The Phoenix Five were all corrupted one by one by the power of the Phoenix Force, because either through pride, or arrogance, they foolishly believed they could control it. Each of them should have known better. How many times do we need documented evidence of that absolute power corrupts absolutely. Ignoring the fact that it's documented across fiction hundreds of times, the X-Men's own experience with the Phoenix should have been more than enough to drill this home... but apparently Wolverine is the only one who learned the damn lesson.

It's not like The Phoenix Force is the only such power they have come across that should have dig that message home! Wolverine was wielded complete omnipotence twice, once Crystal of Ultimate Visions, and once with The Phoenix Force itself, and both times he relinquished the power... because he is the only X-Men smart enough to realize it's beyond his control, and even if he could control it he has no right to do so in the first place. The Phoenix Five goose stepped right down the path Gandalf feared when he said "I would use this ring from a desire to do good... But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine." like the Gestapo the were. You think every should have walked on egg shells and just let them do what ever they want? That's insane.

The rest of your post and your views on Schism are complete nonsense. You didn't bother refuting anything I said. You drew a completely illogical parallel between Idie and Hope, posted some quotes that don't help your case and then said "Wolverine and Cap aren't right because they are Wolverine and Cap." No... they are right because they are - in these particular instances - right. Cyclops wasn't wrong because he was Cyclops, he was wrong because he was written like a complete lunatic. You like the character, and that's fine, but if you going to be an unabashed Cyclops apologist and try to make him seem right... are you going to need to come up with some better material for your rebuttals.

Originally posted by abhilegend
100% agree.

Me too.

I knew it would work out where Scott could say "I was right!", though. Writers just can't help themselves with the "1 in a million shot that puts the world at risk is the morally correct choice" swerves.. There ought to be a trope for that.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Unless you take my calling Cyclops a lunatic as an insult towards you, there is no personal digs or "attacks against your person" in the post you are responding too. I mean... you don't think you are Cyclops, do you?

* no, i'm just saying...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Anyway your entire post is a wall of virtually indecipherable nonsense. I barely even know where to start with this garbage...

Scott didn't create nor summon the Phoenix Force? Yeah... so what? How does that justify him sitting around like the leader of some lunatic suicide cult? Everyone knows what the Phoenix is, and what the Phoenix does. Cyclops' plain was completely insane.

* that's basically ignoring the whole X-Sanction event... Cyclops is the leader of the mutant community, and Cable who's from the future told him to prepare Hope for the Phoenix because she is the Phoenix and she will reignite the mutant population since she is the mutant messiah... put yourself in Cyclops' shoes, just for a moment... will you sit around doing nothing? coordinating with Cap and the Avengers is a good plan, but what is their plan? to take her into protective custody? take her to the moon? good plan... but Cap came down to just get Hope and shut the X-men up when they can sit and work things out like gentlemen...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Scott wasn't right. That is a completely asinine and illogical argument to make. Like Jack just said, Cyclops' was playing Russian Roulette with the earth and every single living being on it. The fact that mostly everyone survived, doesn't make him right. Is a drunk driver "right," if he manages drives home without killing a family of four? I don't think so. The lack of negative consequences doesn't vindicate him. Even if every thing had gone step for step the way Cyclops wanted things to go... he still would have been wrong. The entire stance the Avengers were taking was that the risk of disaster far out weighed any potential benefit, but Scott leveraged the lives of every one on earth against the Phoenix anyway.

* that's irony of it, srank... the arrival of the Phoenix on earth is inevitable... INEVITABLE... the potential danger of the Phoenix is also inevitable... but since Scott's plan is to make Hope control/harness the PF, and it turns out that, that's what really happened in the end, really makes Scott right all along... think about it, all Scott wanted is to make Hope host the PF... is it hard for Cap to convince Scott to, let's say, take Hope to the moon and let her be possessed by the PF in that particular place? i think not... Scott would surely agree with Cap if Cap talked him out of it diplomatically...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The Phoenix Five were all corrupted one by one by the power of the Phoenix Force, because either through pride, or arrogance, they foolishly believed they could control it. Each of them should have known better. How many times do we need documented evidence of that absolute power corrupts absolutely. Ignoring the fact that it's documented across fiction hundreds of times, the X-Men's own experience with the Phoenix should have been more than enough to drill this home... but apparently Wolverine is the only one who learned the damn lesson.

* the relinquishing of PF is debatable... the P5 never chose/wanted to be hosts in the first place, and i don't know if the possession of the PF can be relinquished as easy as a snap of a finger... and if they can, i concede but there's still a hanging question: what would happen to the PF if the P5 relinquished it? it would go to Hope definitely... and we go back to main problem, again...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The rest of your post and your views on Schism are complete nonsense. You didn't bother refuting anything I said. You drew a completely illogical parallel between Idie and Hope,

* Idie killing dozens to save the hundreds? not parallel? it might not be the exact parallelism it d@mn sure is a parallelism, srank...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
posted some quotes that don't help your case and then said "Wolverine and Cap aren't right because they are Wolverine and Cap." No... they are right because they are - in these particular instances - right. Cyclops wasn't wrong because he was Cyclops, he was wrong because he was written like a complete lunatic.

* "in particular instances", glad you stated that because in its entirety, it was Cyclops who turns out to be right... he might me a lunatic to some, but given the circumstances about the info of Cable, Cyclops is not a lunatic but leader wanting to reignite the population of his race and keeping his faith on the words of his time-travelling son from the future...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
You like the character, and that's fine, but if you going to be an unabashed Cyclops apologist and try to make him seem right... are you going to need to come up with some better material for your rebuttals.

* i like the character, true... i don't agree in him condoning murder or sacrificing lives of his teammates... i'm saying he is right because he is... he's being labelled as a murderer and a villain and was even thrown to prison... Wanda did the very same thing but nothing happened... it makes people think that it was because Wanda is an Avenger and Scott is not...