P5 Scott & Emma vs. Voidtry & FP Kuurth

cdtm

Xmen vs Avengers was so bad.. So very, very bad.. >_<

But being bad never stopped characters from being used in vs. big grin

The thing is, the power scaling's hard to rationalize too.. And I don't just mean stuff like Luke Cage slugging it out with Namor, or Spidey lasting any length of time against Colossus and Magik (They try to excuse it as holding back, but have any P5 besides Scott ever held back before? And the two didn't hold back on each other, that's for sure.)

Basically:

Fully grown Shou Lao defeated/chased off the entire Phoenix Force.

Baby Shou Lao hurt P5 Scott with half the Phoenix Force, which is something only reality warping Wanda could do.

Danny Rand couldn't do jack against Scott.

Danny Rand defeated fully grown Shou Lao and drove his hands into his heart to gain the Iron Fist.

eek!

What?

Now, I'm not arguing Danny should get bumped up to Phoenix level, but having Shou Lao fight on an even level with the entire PF is problematic, and calls into question every single feat in this series, since the power levels are just impossible to rationalize..

pym-ftw

^ Lord Rand > PF level opponents

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by ODG
She had Xavier's help then. And while P5 Scott probably isn't a slouch in the telepathy arena, he probably still isn't anywhere near Xavier, who showed his superiority to the P5 individually when he laid P5 Namor to sleep easily. And I wouldn't be surprised to see Emma's talents affected by the Phoenixforce like the others.

She used him as a battery, he was too drained to actually help. And all he did was help get her back into her white room, she was the one who lobotomised the Sentry. Her powers are amped here. Also Bendis' Phoenix 5 didn't all have telepathy see the Red Hulk issue and why Emma was the most dangerous to Ross because she was the only character with telepathy. The editors got it wrong there, half the writers had the Phoenix boost only the P5s main mutations. So Namor only got a strength, Durability and flight boost under the Phoenix, cyclops only got an optic blast boost etc. The other half wrote them with TK, and TP too. Bendis Emma had human strength as a Phoenix her diamond form strength was boosted though.

zopzop

Originally posted by cdtm
Xmen vs Avengers was so bad.. So very, very bad.. >_<

But being bad never stopped characters from being used in vs. big grin

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

ODG

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
She used him as a battery, he was too drained to actually help. And all he did was help get her back into her white room, she was the one who lobotomised the Sentry. Her powers are amped here. Also Bendis' Phoenix 5 didn't all have telepathy see the Red Hulk issue and why Emma was the most dangerous to Ross because she was the only character with telepathy. The editors got it wrong there, half the writers had the Phoenix boost only the P5s main mutations. So Namor only got a strength, Durability and flight boost under the Phoenix, cyclops only got an optic blast boost etc. The other half wrote them with TK, and TP too. Bendis Emma had human strength as a Phoenix her diamond form strength was boosted though. Emma was still assisted by Xavier. So how little or how much you want to quantify that help is cause for argument and speculation, but nowhere near as conclusive as you're making it out to be. P5 Scott had telepathy. Global-scale, in fact. Read AvX Infinite #1 right before he goes to the Moon. That you do acknowledge that they displayed telepathy sometimes, and sometimes didn't even bother, isn't really relevant. Just because they didn't use a power in a comic (or one character thinks they don't have one) doesn't mean they didn't possess a power. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by ODG
Emma was still assisted by Xavier. So how little or how much you want to quantify that help is cause for argument and speculation, but nowhere near as conclusive as you're making it out to be. P5 Scott had telepathy. Global-scale, in fact. Read AvX Infinite #1 right before he goes to the Moon. That you do acknowledge that they displayed telepathy sometimes, and sometimes didn't even bother, isn't really relevant. Just because they didn't use a power in a comic (or one character thinks they don't have one) doesn't mean they didn't possess a power. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

Not really because the issue specifies what exactly Xavier helped. He helped her gain access to the White Room which was stated but did not help with the lobotomy because he wasn't assaulted by the Void, Emma only was. Secondly, the machine that Dark Beast used on Nate Grey and Beast took their mutations away. Beast started losing his fur and Nate Grey lost his telepathy and most of his telekinesis. Xavier was drained tremendously and Emma's telepathy is amped by the Phoenix Force here.

That's one of the inconsistencies I was referring to. Another inconsistency was that Emma was able to locate Hope but Cyclops wasn't. And the fact that they required Emma to blow up the Sinister telepathic hive mind not any of the others. But if you want to go by that then Namor did not display any telepathy in the entire crossover. Cyclops was the only person who displayed telepathy sometimes the others did not suffer the inconsistency. It was established that the P5 were different. Cyclops also had super strength. Emma and Magik didn't.

Not to mention that Cyclops without telepathy and non-amped contained a sliver of the Void.

ODG

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Not really because the issue specifies what exactly Xavier helped. He helped her gain access to the White Room which was stated but did not help with the lobotomy because he wasn't assaulted by the Void, Emma only was. Secondly, the machine that Dark Beast used on Nate Grey and Beast took their mutations away. Beast started losing his fur and Nate Grey lost his telepathy and most of his telekinesis. Xavier was drained tremendously and Emma's telepathy is amped by the Phoenix Force here.

That's one of the inconsistencies I was referring to. Another inconsistency was that Emma was able to locate Hope but Cyclops wasn't. And the fact that they required Emma to blow up the Sinister telepathic hive mind not any of the others. But if you want to go by that then Namor did not display any telepathy in the entire crossover. Cyclops was the only person who displayed telepathy sometimes the others did not suffer the inconsistency. It was established that the P5 were different. Cyclops also had super strength. Emma and Magik didn't.

Not to mention that Cyclops without telepathy and non-amped contained a sliver of the Void. I'm not really following what you're trying to say. It comes off as, "Xavier didn't really help, yes Xavier helped sort of, but he really didn't."

P5 Emma said they had an affair telepathically, "I thought about having an affair with Namor. We thought about it. And being telepathic in the way we are now... that's all it took." Since Emma was already telepathic and she's speaking in the plural, she could only be referring to how P5 Namor was also telepathic. Also, Emma definitely had superstrength, she kicked the holy crap out of Thor.

They're not dealing with a sliver of the Void here.

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by ODG
I'm not really following what you're trying to say. It comes off as, "Xavier didn't really help, yes Xavier helped sort of, but he really didn't."

P5 Emma said they had an affair telepathically, "I thought about having an affair with Namor. We thought about it. And being telepathic in the way we are now... that's all it took." Since Emma was already telepathic and she's speaking in the plural, she could only be referring to how P5 Namor was also telepathic. Also, Emma definitely had superstrength, she kicked the holy crap out of Thor.

They're not dealing with a sliver of the Void here.

To make it clearer he helped her while he was in a very weakened state. That crossover was shown to last over a week Marvel Time and he was sapped of his powers over that period of time.

"Being telepathic in the way we are". She's referring to the Phoenix Hive mind, which was how the Phoenix 5 were linked to each other. This was something Gillen mentioned in his books throughout AvX and he even talked about it on his forumspring IRRC. Remember during Sinister London how they all ignored Storm, Magneto and Danger and met as a hive mind? That was due to the connection they shared as Phoenix hosts. That's how they were able to finish each others sentences. That does not necessarily mean he had the same telepathic capabilities as a telepath. That just means they shared a unique bond as Phoenix. Heck, the affair even explains the nature of their bond. They didn't have an affair they only thought about having an affair and due to the unique bond they share it became reality. "Our thoughts are like ticking timebombs" I think that is the line that she used after she tells Cyclops about the affair.

He didn't demonstrate any thought casting either, and niether did Magik or Colossus. That's why Emma had to tell him where the Avengers were hiding.

Emma had her diamond form amped. In her human form she had normal human strength. And Emma only kicked the crap out of Thor in her diamond form. Cyclops actually had his human strength amped which is how he blocked Thors hammer.

Cyclops is amped by the Phoenix too. Also another thing to keep is that the Phoenix 5 never dedicated their full concentration to anything they did. Namor took on the Avengers while having psychic sex, Scott and Emma had dinner, Cyclops was elsewhere in the last issue. They were all doing other things as well.

ODG

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
To make it clearer he helped her while he was in a very weakened state. That crossover was shown to last over a week Marvel Time and he was sapped of his powers over that period of time.

"Being telepathic in the way we are". She's referring to the Phoenix Hive mind, which was how the Phoenix 5 were linked to each other which was something Gillen mentioned in his books throughout AvX. Remember during Sinister London how they all ignored Storm, Magneto and Danger and met as a hive mind? That was due to the connection they shared as Phoenix hosts. That's how they were able to finish each others sentences. That does not necessarily mean he had the same telepathic capabilities as a telepath. That just means they shared a unique bond as Phoenix. He didn't demonstrate any, and niether did Magik or Colossus. Would be nice to see some scans of this as I'm not going to even bother rereading those issues. In any event, so what? Xavier was going toe-to-toe with P2 Scott. Dealt with P5 Namor with ease. I wouldn't be surprised if a weakened Xavier still stacks up better against P5 Scott in straight tp.

This doesn't disprove anything... in fact, it proves they're all telepathic. I don't see semantics clouding what Emma said plainly in no uncertain terms, they're telepathic. I don't even get why you're so opposed to the idea that they possessed telepathy, they had the Phoenixforce. They held telepathic concerts, could talk to each other at long ranges, have telepathic affairs with each other, and said they were telepathic. I mean... are you going to also try to deny they had telekinesis? Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Emma had her diamond form amped. In her human form she had normal human strength. And Emma only kicked the crap out of Thor in her diamond form. Cyclops actually had his human strength amped which is how he blocked Thors hammer.

Cyclops is amped by the Phoenix too. Also another thing to keep is that the Phoenix 5 never dedicated their full concentration to anything they did. Namor took on the Avengers while having an affair, Scott and Emma had dinner, Cyclops was elsewhere in the last issue. They were all doing other things as well. Your arguments aren't tying together at all. In fact, you're literally tripping over yourself by arguing that the Phoenixforce didn't amp Emma's strength but admitting that it amped her strength in diamond form. Besides, non-diamond form P5 Emma got hammered by a Mjolnir swing when stunned by Thor's mind. If her normal body weren't amped, she wouldn't have survived that.

I don't even get what you're arguing about anymore.

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by ODG
Would be nice to see some scans of this as I'm not going to even bother rereading those issues. In any event, so what? Xavier was going toe-to-toe with P2 Scott. Dealt with P5 Namor with ease. I wouldn't be surprised if a weakened Xavier still stacks up better against P5 Scott in straight tp.

I'm not scanning everything let me know what exactly you'd like to see scans of. The Utopia crossover? They have a two page spread showing Daken going Clubbing while acting as a Dark Avenger. And they show what he did from Monday to Sunday.

The Sinister London thing. It's in Uncanny X-Men. Just let me know what exactly you're curious about.

BTW Xavier didn't go toe to toe with P2 Cyclops, he had Captain America's shield and Doctor Stranges magic protecting him (See UXM 18 for the later.) Thor, 2 Hulks, Psylocke and Rachel were there too. Not to mention the fact that throughout all of this none of the Phoenix Five were going for the kill as per Cyclops orders. Cyclops even shot Emma down when she suggested raising the world and starting again. The struggle was keeping their emotions in check so they don't do something rash.

No there's a difference, just because they share a bond with each other does not mean they could say mind link with a non-Phoenix person.

Not in the conventional sense. I'm arguing that taking down Namor telepathically doesn't mean much because he had no defense against such an attack.

Not at all it amped their pre-existing mutations. Cyclops was the only one shown to get other things amped.

BTW Emma switched to Diamond when Thor knocked her. And the Phoenix Force didn't amp her durability it healed her after the damage was done as shown when Warbird blew her up. It's the same when Phoebe Cuckoo got her head slit open by Wolverine. Or Jean got stabbed many times. Her durability didn't increase but the PF healed them in all those instances.

ExodusCloak

It wasn't just mentioned once it was mentioned twice. And the second scan is from the story where Xavier puts Phoenix 5 Namor to sleep. Namor had no defense against such an attack.

http://i47.tinypic.com/2zxyznm.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/2mp0qrk.jpg

Uncanny X-Men 15 is where they ignore Danger, Magneto and Storm even though they're sitting in the room with them.

http://i48.tinypic.com/24b467r.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/dcq7h0.jpg

http://i50.tinypic.com/2r44ims.jpg

Rachel Grey was present

http://i49.tinypic.com/34t8msw.jpg

ODG

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
It wasn't just mentioned once it was mentioned twice. And the second scan is from the story where Xavier puts Phoenix 5 Namor to sleep. Namor had no defense against such an attack.

http://i47.tinypic.com/2zxyznm.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/2mp0qrk.jpg An ignorant character statement made by Spider-Woman doesn't override the telepathy displayed by the P5 and their own (more well-informed) character statements that they have telepathy. P5 Namor was telepathic. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Uncanny X-Men 15 is where they ignore Danger, Magneto and Storm even though they're sitting in the room with them.

http://i48.tinypic.com/24b467r.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/dcq7h0.jpg

http://i50.tinypic.com/2r44ims.jpg Them holding a telepathic conference proves they're not telepathic? You're not thinking clearly, and even if you were, you surely aren't speaking clearly. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Rachel Grey was present

http://i49.tinypic.com/34t8msw.jpg So what? P2 Emma was present also.

Posting obnoxiously oversized scans doesn't prove anything.

-Pr-

ODG, cut the hostility.

ODG

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I'm not scanning everything let me know what exactly you'd like to see scans of. The Utopia crossover? They have a two page spread showing Daken going Clubbing while acting as a Dark Avenger. And they show what he did from Monday to Sunday. Scans of just how weakened Xavier is supposed to be that you would so completely and arbitrarily ignore his assistance when Emma accessed the Bob persona. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
No there's a difference, just because they share a bond with each other does not mean they could say mind link with a non-Phoenix person.

Not in the conventional sense. I'm arguing that taking down Namor telepathically doesn't mean much because he had no defense against such an attack. All you're trying to say here is telepathy isn't telepathy. P2 Emma didn't say, "having an innate mind-link in the way we do," she plainly said in no uncertain terms, "being telepathic in the way we are now." Namor obviously wasn't telepathic before he was possessed by the Phoenixforce. Now he was.

Completely unproven. Assuming your conclusion. You say P5 Namor had no telepathy. Your proof is because Xavier beat P5 Namor in telepathy when P5 Namor had no telepathy. I've already proven he had telepathy. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Not at all it amped their pre-existing mutations. Cyclops was the only one shown to get other things amped. All you're trying to say here is the P5 were amped, but they weren't. Colossus could never grow super-sized before. Emma could never survive having her chest cleaved in two by a Shiar sword. Magik could never no-sell a Spider-Man jumpkick to the back of the head and never slam Spider-Man like a rag doll. Namor could never levitate an entire fleet. So stop trying to act like the Phoenixforce didn't enhance their bodies and minds and give them all pyrokinesis, telekinesis and telepathy. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
BTW Emma switched to Diamond when Thor knocked her. And the Phoenix Force didn't amp her durability it healed her after the damage was done as shown when Warbird blew her up. It's the same when Phoebe Cuckoo got her head slit open by Wolverine. Or Jean got stabbed many times. Her durability didn't increase but the PF healed them in all those instances. She switched to diamond form when Thor tried to follow it up. She was stunned by Thor's consciousness in human form. And don't be so obtuse. If her base durability was never amped, she'd be a bloody puddle once struck by a charged Mjolnir strike that crashed her through a helicarrier and buildings. She was intact the whole way down and she was human. The same way she wasn't a bloody smear when Hulk double-fist pounded her through Utopia's bedrock.

Arguing that the P5 didn't get durability upgrades is retarded. P5 Namor no-sold a Mjolnir strike to the back of his head. His head wasn't caved in, then reformed from the bloody mess.

You have no idea what you're even arguing about anymore.

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by ODG
An ignorant character statement made by Spider-Woman doesn't override the telepathy displayed by the P5 and their own (more well-informed) character statements that they have telepathy.

You mean an "ignorant character statement" by Wolverine right? Since he's the one who lists out the major telepaths there. BTW In that very issue they used the Avengers database. And in the issue with the Red Hulk he's using the Avengers database to study up on the Phoenix 5 and he came to the conclusion that Emma was the only P5 threat to his assassination plan because of her telepathy.

That scan of Rachel Grey and Psylocke was in response to your claim that "Xavier went toe to toe with Cyclops."

Were you not the one who asked for scans? I can resize them if you wanted all you had to do was ask. I also had more scans to post but didn't cause I didn't want to come across as obnoxious :P. I'll tell you the numbers so you can have a look at them though. In Uncanny X-Men 15, Emma finds Sinister. They end up in Canada Namor still doesn't know where Sinister is located. Emma has to tell him his underground. In Wolverine and the X-Men 16 Cyclops doesn't know who the Hellfire Kids are because he can't read their minds. Emma does cause she's able to.

Anyway to cut it short. Phoenix Namor didn't display any ability to make him anymore resistant to a telepathic attack then Normal Namor. That is assumption you are making based on the P5 mind-link.

ODG

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
You mean an "ignorant character statement" by Wolverine right? Since he's the one who lists out the major telepaths there. BTW In that very issue they used the Avengers database. And in the issue with the Red Hulk he's using the Avengers database to study up on the Phoenix 5 and he came to the conclusion that Emma was the only Wolverine was talking about the X-Men's "big telepaths." He didn't even mention the Stepford Cuckoos or Psylocke. Setting aside how irresponsibly obtuse it is for you to translate Wolverine's statement as "only telepaths," what expert intel had Wolverine or even all the Avengers even gathered at that point on the enhanced powersets the P5 had? Iron Man thought he had anti-psi armor built that ended up being useless against P5 Scott. So, yes, Wolverine's statement and the Avengers database is still relatively ignorant compared to P2 Emma's statement -- which was based on personal intimate experience with the actual P5 and the Phoenixforce itself. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
That scan of Rachel Grey and Psylocke was in response to your claim that "Xavier went toe to toe with Cyclops."

Were you not the one who asked for scans? I can resize them if you wanted all you had to do was ask. I also had more scans to post but didn't cause I didn't want to come across as obnoxious :P. I'll tell you the numbers so you can have a look at them though. In Uncanny X-Men 15, Emma finds Sinister. They end up in Canada Namor still doesn't know where Sinister is located. Emma has to tell him his underground. In Wolverine and the X-Men 16 Cyclops doesn't know who the Hellfire Kids are because he can't read their mind. Emma does cause she's able to.

Anyway to cut it short. Phoenix Namor didn't display any ability to make him anymore resistant to a telepathic attackt then Normal Namor. Which he did.

I asked for scans showing how weak Xavier was since you keep trying to wish his involvement away when Emma breached Sentry's mind. I didn't ask for oversized scans that had nothing to do with that. Was P5 Namor even tasked with looking for Sinister? P5 Scott wasn't directing traffic then either. But you obviously have already acknowledged P5 Scott had telepathy. So the absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

Assuming your conclusion in contravention of the positive proof we do have, e.g., their telepathic conferences, their telepathic conversations when separated across the globe, their telepathic affairs, P2 Emma's plain statement that they were telepathic. At the very least, I'm glad you're not trying to argue that the Phoenixforce didn't give the P5 extra abilities and increased physical stats anymore.

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by ODG
Scans of just how weakened Xavier is supposed to be that you would so completely and arbitrarily ignore his assistance when Emma accessed the Bob persona. All you're trying to say here is telepathy isn't telepathy. P2 Emma didn't say, "having an innate mind-link in the way we do," she plainly said in no uncertain terms, "being telepathic in the way we are now." Namor obviously wasn't telepathic before he was possessed by the Phoenixforce. Now he was.

There's a scan of Xavier unable to move in prison, will you be happy with that? Not enough to help him escape prison. And then there's a scan of Nate Grey and Beast and Hellion in the same state and unable to use their powers. Would you like them?

Mastermind can't do everything a normal telepath can yet his illusions are a form of telepathy. Namor did not display anything to indicate that it was anything other then a mind-link. In fact the instances where he couldn't locate Sinister while standing right above Sinister London while Emma could would indicate otherwise. Namor didn't display anything to indicate his protection against telepathy increased. And if you want to look at the actual context within the issue it'd agree that he had no protection against it because he wasn't even considered a telepathic threat by the Avengers. Rachel was.

So if you want to say he shared a telepathic link with the P5 then more to power to you. But there's nothing to indicate that his telepathic resistance was increased or that he could perform mind control, thought casting etc.

My proof is from Uncanny X-Men 15 where he didn't know where Sinister was while standing right above them. Doesn't matter anyway you have not proven in any way that he could perform any normal telepathic feats or that he'd be harder to take down telepathically.

Actually, every single time Colossus armoured up he increased in mass and size. So that's an amped.

The Phoenix Force healed her like it did Jean from radiation poisoning. She still got stabbed by the sword.

Goat legs Magik (This Magik) could actually.

It's not pyrokinesis, it's telekinesis IRRC. The flame was created from moving molecules so fast. The Phoenix Force grants telekinetic godhood, that's kind of it's thing so that makes sense.

She was diamond when Thor hit her. She can switch very quickly. And Kaare Andrews art was very shiny there so it's hard to tell. She most likely was a bloody smear when the Hulk hit her. You can't really tell cause they never showed it.

Namor also took punches to the face by Voidtry. If they got durability upgrades that sword wouldn't have gone through Emma's human body. Cyclops would have jerked his head when he got in the head by Caps shield.

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by ODG
Wolverine was talking about the X-Men's "big telepaths." He didn't even mention the Stepford Cuckoos or Psylocke. Setting aside how irresponsibly obtuse it is for you to translate Wolverine's statement as "only telepaths," what expert intel had Wolverine or even all the Avengers even gathered at that point on the enhanced powersets the P5 had? Iron Man thought he had anti-psi armor built that ended up being useless against P5 Scott. So, yes, Wolverine's statement and the Avengers database is still relatively ignorant compared to P2 Emma's statement -- which was based on personal intimate experience with the actual P5 and the Phoenixforce itself. Which he did.

Did you not see all the footage Tony Stark was recording of the Phoenix 5 during their fights? AvX 7 I believe. Also, Psylocke is not a big telepath.

So why couldn't Namor locate Sinister in Uncanny X-Men 15?

You weren't very clear with what you were asking for I'll get on to it for you.

Can I post the scan of it? This was after the conference when they go to Canada. He asks where is Sinister. And Emma tells him he's below them. If he was telepathic in the way you're suggesting then he wouldn't have needed to ask that.

Actually, since you're getting very particular about things. Tell me how do you know their telepathic conferences wasn't down to Emma setting it up? Also, in Hickmans issue and in Fractions issue AvX 6 and AvX 9 IRRC telepathy is shown via telepathic speech bubbles. So what are these instances of separate long distance telepathic conversations you're referring to?

ExodusCloak

Here's what you were asking for. An explanation on what the Omega Machine did from both Xavier and Dark Beast. An example of how weak he was given that Beast could barely hear him. Also depicted in the scan is that he could barely stand up which was a side-effect of the procedure "lethargy".

Keep in mind that Xavier was actually there longer then a week. He was kidnapped in X-Men Legacy right after breaking up the Acolytes.

http://i45.tinypic.com/adz1no.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/35leq8h.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/2qujebm.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/10f5hj8.jpg

ODG

^ Holy jebus in a basket with the obnoxious oversized scans. Stop pretending you don't know how to post thumbnails or links. You're stretching the page for absolutely no reason. And an imprisoned Xavier =/= rescued Xavier anyway. Xavier wasn't imprisoned when he helped Emma tackle Sentry. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
There's a scan of Xavier unable to move in prison, will you be happy with that? Not enough to help him escape prison. And then there's a scan of Nate Grey and Beast and Hellion in the same state and unable to use their powers. Would you like them?

Mastermind can't do everything a normal telepath can yet his illusions are a form of telepathy. Namor did not display anything to indicate that it was anything other then a mind-link. In fact the instances where he couldn't locate Sinister while standing right above Sinister London while Emma could would indicate otherwise. Namor didn't display anything to indicate his protection against telepathy increased. And if you want to look at the actual context within the issue it'd agree that he had no protection against it because he wasn't even considered a telepathic threat by the Avengers. Rachel was.

So if you want to say he shared a telepathic link with the P5 then more to power to you. But there's nothing to indicate that his telepathic resistance was increased or that he could perform mind control, thought casting etc.

My proof is from Uncanny X-Men 15 where he didn't know where Sinister was while standing right above them. Doesn't matter anyway you have not proven in any way that he could perform any normal telepathic feats or that he'd be harder to take down telepathically. Beast was a completely different case as he was literally being killed by the process. I don't care about anyone else, just Xavier.

P5 Scott was there too when P5 Namor asked, who you've already conceded had telepathy. So, meaningless. And just because Wolverine might not know what he's talking about doesn't mean anything either since, by your forced rationale, he didn't even consider Psylocke or the Stepford Cuckoos a telepathic threat.

I've already addressed this entire absence of evidence fallacy you keep relying on multiple times, severely. Repeating it endlessly and helplessly hasn't improved your position.

Repeating it endlessly and helplessly hasn't improved your position. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Actually, every single time Colossus armoured up he increased in mass and size. So that's an amped.

The Phoenix Force healed her like it did Jean from radiation poisoning. She still got stabbed by the sword.

Goat legs Magik (This Magik) could actually. You're not making any sense. "Colossus wasn't amped, yes he kinda was, but he wasn't." Colossus never grew to the size of a mountain or telekinetically parted an entire sea.

Statement of unextraordinary fact that proves absolutely nothing. Inever tried to deny that they could molecularly reform themselves.

Good thing we're not dealing with goat-legs Magik but this supposedly non-strength amped P5 Magik who previously got her a$$ kicked to holy hell by Black Widow in H2H but no-sold and rag-dolled Spider-Man. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
It's not pyrokinesis, it's telekinesis IRRC. The flame was created from moving molecules so fast. The Phoenix Force grants telekinetic godhood, that's kind of it's thing so that makes sense.

She was diamond when Thor hit her. She can switch very quickly. And Kaare Andrews art was very shiny there so it's hard to tell. She most likely was a bloody smear when the Hulk hit her. You can't really tell cause they never showed it. ... P5 Colossus literally burned Kitty Pryde when she was intangible. P5 Emma charbroiled Hawkeye. I don't even get the point of you trying to pretend it's not pyrokinesis.

She was not diamond form when Thor hit her. She was human form. Proven even moreso by the fact that when she finally landed after being smashed through the helicarrier and buildings, she grunts in audible pain, "NnNpH." Here:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/P5Emma01.jpg

Whereas, as soon as she turns diamond form, what do we know? "In her diamond form.... she is numbed from pain, both physical and emotional." The fact she felt pain beforehand proves she wasn't in diamond form:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/P5Emma02.jpg

So, yea, she was human form when she was struck by a charged Mjolnir strike, same way she was human form when Hulk double-fist pounded her through Utopia's bedrock. Both which would have reduced her to a bloody pile of goo had her physicality not been amped. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Namor also took punches to the face by Voidtry. If they got durability upgrades that sword wouldn't have gone through Emma's human body. Cyclops would have jerked his head when he got in the head by Caps shield. Super durability =/= invincibility. And I didn't try to prove P5 Emma was invincible. Just that her durability was clearly amped even in human form. Your Cyclops/Cap comment makes no sense. I don't even know what you're trying to argue about anymore. At this point, the only thing I can do is correct your misstatements of plain fact.

ODG

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Did you not see all the footage Tony Stark was recording of the Phoenix 5 during their fights? AvX 7 I believe. Also, Psylocke is not a big telepath.

So why couldn't Namor locate Sinister in Uncanny X-Men 15?

You weren't very clear with what you were asking for I'll get on to it for you.

Can I post the scan of it? This was after the conference when they go to Canada. He asks where is Sinister. And Emma tells him he's below them. If he was telepathic in the way you're suggesting then he wouldn't have needed to ask that. Footage that helped him in absolutely no way whatsoever? Yea, I saw it. That footage also chronologically took place after that Wolverine talking heads scene since Hawkeye was still around but had been charbroiled at the beginning of AvX #7. So... irrelevant.

Why couldn't P5 Scott? Didn't try =/= couldn't attempt. No matter how many times you try to force this absence of evidence, it doesn't work. Even by your own standards, unless you're trying to disprove P5 Scott also had telepathy?????

I want scans of how weakened Xavier was when he helped Emma. Nothing else.

Again, proving nothing. P5 Namor and P5 Scott not asking or knowing =/= not having telepathy. Stop pretending to be so obtuse that you cannot understand this simple fact. P5 Scott asked wtf P5 Namor was doing in Wakanda too. That doesn't disprove him having telepathy, which even you have already conceded he did. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Actually, since you're getting very particular about things. Tell me how do you know their telepathic conferences wasn't down to Emma setting it up? Also, in Hickmans issue and in Fractions issue AvX 6 and AvX 9 IRRC telepathy is shown via telepathic speech bubbles. So what are these instances of separate long distance telepathic conversations you're referring to? How do you know that she did? Do you have any proof that P5 Emma was setting them up and that without her their ability to speak to each other would be completely shut down or are you just speculating based on nothing? When the P5 are dealing with multiple Avenger teams around the world and talking to each other and relating what they're seeing in realtime.

The only one trying to mince words and parse scenes is you. Your entire stance on Wolverine's character statement is patently ridiculous. As is your whole attempt to argue away the various physical amps and extra abilities the P5 manifested as plain as day. You've lost perspective and complete sight of your argument.

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by ODG
^ Holy jebus in a basket with the obnoxious oversized scans. Stop pretending you don't know how to post thumbnails or links. You're stretching the page for absolutely no reason. And an imprisoned Xavier =/= rescued Xavier anyway. Xavier wasn't imprisoned when he helped Emma tackle Sentry. Why don't you show it. Beast was a completely different case as he was literally being killed by the process. I don't care about anyone else, just Xavier.

They're resized.

The moment the prisoners were set free and Namor and Emma double crossed Norman is the moment Utopia was attacked that happened within hours at the very most. So how is your point relevant at all? It was the machine that limited his powers. BTW Xavier was hooked up to large ass machines in the med lab when he was rescued.

They mentioned major telepaths. Psylocke isn't on the same level as the other two. And the Stepford Cuckoos according to Bendis isn't either. From the issue it would indicate Scott isn't either.

In any case, the that is the context of the story Bendis wanted to tell. It's pretty clear in both the issues too.

I already said the P5 mutations were amped so not sure what problem you're having here. Colossus grew though. So growing bigger is plausable. And the Phoenix in Morrisons X-Men was stated to grant telekinetic godhood. So the telekinesis is understandable.

You stated her durability increased. If that's the case how did a sword go through her but Mljonir not go through her skull? (Going by your logic that she was human form)

Low end feat. This is the same Magik who in non-goat legs form went toe to toe with Sym and Nasarith. And Sym is very strong.

It's actually not pyrokinesis. It'd be the same as me lighting a candle and saying it's pyrokinesis. It's telekinesis on a godlike level. The Phoenix Flame was explained and Jean using her telekinesis on a sub-atomic level. Or for example if I could slow down all the molecules in this room with telekinesis, would you call that chronokinesis?

NnNph is not the sound someone makes when they're in pain. Sounds dazed more then anything. So how do you account for Warbirds sword going right through her and Mljonir not going through her skull?

Of course it does. You're saying their durability was enhanced. You're saying enhanced to the point where Emma's skull isn't caved in by Mljonir. So how if that's the case how can Captain Amerca's shield hurt Phoenix 2 Cyclops so?

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by ODG
Footage that helped him in absolutely no way whatsoever? Yea, I saw it. That footage also chronologically took place after that Wolverine talking heads scene since Hawkeye was still around but had been charbroiled at the beginning of AvX #7. So... irrelevant.

Still footage of what powers the Phoenix 5 exhibited. Ross used that same footage to hatch his plan. Seeing that telepathy was an issue, why was Emma the only person listed as a potential problem?

I'm being obtuse. Lol, you're deliberately ingnoring the inconsistencies in the crossover due to poor communication between writers.

Do you have proof that she didn't? Is it any different to you saying the Phoenix should make Namor harder to take down telepathically?

Actually we see what telepathic speech bubbles look like in AvX 6. Those red and yellow Phoenix bubbles aren't telepathic speech bubbles. So nope.

You're arguing for the sake of arguing here. And the crossover was poorly edited. It is blantaly clear that Bendis take on the Phoenix 5 is that they weren't telepaths. That was Aarons take.

Hickman and Hopeless were inconsistent with the others.

Anyway, the rest of the stuff is fluff. It comes down to this. Your take on Namor and Phoenix Namor. Should he be harder to take down telepathically now that he is a Phoenix and if that is the case what proof are using for this?

ExodusCloak

BTW These are telepathic speech bubbles.

http://i48.tinypic.com/2uhv5nt.jpg

These aren't

http://i46.tinypic.com/28l6us4.jpg

ODG

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
They're resized.

The moment the prisoners were set free and Namor and Emma double crossed Norman is the moment Utopia was attacked that happened within hours at the very most. So how is your point relevant at all? It was the machine that limited his powers. BTW Xavier was hooked up to large ass machines in the med lab when he was rescued. Thank god for small mercies.

And he wasn't hooked up to this large a$$ machine that affected certain people worse than others when he helped Emma deal with Sentry. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
They mentioned major telepaths. Psylocke isn't on the same level as the other two. And the Stepford Cuckoos according to Bendis isn't either. From the issue it would indicate Scott isn't either.

In any case, the that is the context of the story Bendis wanted to tell. It's pretty clear in both the issues too. I don't care about Wolverine and Spider-Woman being idiots in their character statements based on the paucity of their actual verifiable intel on the P5. That does not, in any way, banish the telepathy the P5 had, displayed, and themselves talked about.

It's pretty clear you're trying to use completely circumstantial statements made by Wolverine and Spider-Woman to override P5 Emma's plain-as-day statements and the P5's on-panel displays of telepathy. In which case, the question of relative strengths of our positions are rather academic at this point. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I already said the P5 mutations were amped so not sure what problem you're having here. Colossus grew though. So growing bigger is plausable. And the Phoenix in Morrisons X-Men was stated to grant telekinetic godhood. So the telekinesis is understandable.

You stated her durability increased. If that's the case how did a sword go through her but Mljonir not go through her skull? (Going by your logic that she was human form) It wasn't just their mutations. Stop obfuscating your repeated mistakes. Colossus never displayed pyrokinesis capable of burning intangible Kitty Pryde or telekinesis capable of parting seas or telepathy capable of communicating with Zzzax's electric legion.

Warbird's sword must be pretty awesome then. Granted, when it comes to piercing in comics I too am flabbergasted that Wolverine could easily stab through Gladiator's shoulder while Thor doesn't come close to caving in Gladiator's skull. Which again, is still meaningless as to your attempts to disprove P5 Emma's amps to her body. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Low end feat. This is the same Magik who in non-goat legs form went toe to toe with Sym and Nasarith. And Sym is very strong.

It's actually not pyrokinesis. It'd be the same as me lighting a candle and saying it's pyrokinesis. It's telekinesis on a godlike level. The Phoenix Flame was explained and Jean using her telekinesis on a sub-atomic level. Or for example if I could slow down all the molecules in this room with telekinesis, would you call that chronokinesis? You're just ignoring clear evidence at this point. Normal Magik in non-demonic form has no super-strength and gets her butt royally kicked in H2H against Black Widow in AvX Vs. #3, but in P5 form, she no-sells Spider-Man's kicks and ragdolls him. You don't like that the evidence is clear and damning, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist and doesn't disprove your position.

I don't even care how you're arbitrarily parsing telekinesis and pyrokinesis. If controlling fire and lighting stuff on fire isn't pyrokinesis, that's your cup of tea. It's completely senseless semantics and isn't improving either of our positions. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
NnNph is not the sound someone makes when they're in pain. Sounds dazed more then anything. So how do you account for Warbirds sword going right through her and Mljonir not going through her skull?

Of course it does. You're saying their durability was enhanced. You're saying enhanced to the point where Emma's skull isn't caved in by Mljonir. So how if that's the case how can Captain Amerca's shield hurt Phoenix 2 Cyclops so? Jebus H. Christ. At this point, your arbitrary disbelief is about as close to trolling as I'm willing to stomach. Why would she even be dazed if she is tireless and can feel no physical or emotional pain? Your piercing durability schtick has already been dealt with above. You don't need to repeat your arguments over and over again.

Yes, which explains why Emma wasn't splattered by a charged Mjolnir strike or a double-fist Hulk pound. Which explains why Magik can no-sell Spider-Man and ragdoll him. Cap staggers everybody with his shield, including P5 Namor who you concede had his durability and strength (his main mutations) amped. Do you even read comics?

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by ODG
Thank god for small mercies.

And he wasn't hooked up to this large a$$ machine that affected certain people worse than others when he helped Emma deal with Sentry. I don't care about Wolverine and Spider-Woman being idiots in their character statements based on the paucity of their actual verifiable intel on the P5. That does not, in any way, banish the telepathy the P5 had, displayed, and themselves talked about.

I'm not following you here. He wasn't constantly hooked up to the Omega Machine when he was in prison either. The machine was in a different room. Prisoners would be taken to the Omega Machine and drained.

What's clear is that the writers had conflicting takes ont eh P5 Bendis, Aaron and even Gillen had different takes to Hickman and Hopeless.

He didn't communicate with Zzzax telepathically. He learnt the language because the Phoenix Force granted them knowledge.

And Mljonir is not so awesome?

Magik wasn't in demon form when she went toe to toe with Sym though. You're using one feat. Feats are taken on an average on these boards.

She's dazed since she went spinning?? I see your POV and I can understand why you would say that. I could even accept it but the inconsistencies within the crossover are jarring. Okay lets say that the Phoenix Force did grant them extra abilitys durability etc...how do you go about quantifiying what it granted each and every one because it wasn't shown within the crossover. E.g. Namor had telepathy lets say he does. How do you quanitfy the level of it? Karma level? Blindfold level?

So now we're not even talking comics we're talking writing inconsistencies yes?

ODG

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Still footage of what powers the Phoenix 5 exhibited. Ross used that same footage to hatch his plan. Seeing that telepathy was an issue, why was Emma the only person listed as a potential problem? I just told you that footage was chronologically recorded before Wolverine discusses their telepaths. You can tell because Hawkeye is present when Wolverine is speaking but had been charbroiled by the time Tony started gathering data. Reread the comics. Stop repeating yourself needlessly and stop making me repeat myself. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I'm being obtuse. Lol, you're deliberately ingnoring the inconsistencies in the crossover due to poor communication between writers.

Do you have proof that she didn't? Is it any different to you saying the Phoenix should make Namor harder to take down telepathically?

Actually we see what telepathic speech bubbles look like in AvX 6. Those red and yellow Phoenix bubbles aren't telepathic speech bubbles. So nope. You can blame the writers all you want. Your arguments are left wanting.

Why do I have to prove a negative? Why do I have to prove that even without P5 Emma, they could set up telepathic conferences? You don't even have any evidence that she was solely responsible for them in the first place. In any event, I can prove the negative. Because P5 Cyclops, Magik and Colossus were still talking to each other even after P5 Emma got taken out by Sinister's Madelyne clones.

So they're just talking really loudly across the Earth? I'd rather you not beg meaningless questions and I'm not going to further derail this conversation with absurdities. You yourself pointed out their telepathic conferences with each other while ignoring everybody else and no strictly telepathic speech bubbles are used. So don't bother bringing it up again. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
You're arguing for the sake of arguing here. And the crossover was poorly edited. It is blantaly clear that Bendis take on the Phoenix 5 is that they weren't telepaths. That was Aarons take.

Hickman and Hopeless were inconsistent with the others.

Anyway, the rest of the stuff is fluff. It comes down to this. Your take on Namor and Phoenix Namor. Should he be harder to take down telepathically now that he is a Phoenix and if that is the case what proof are using for this? No, I'm not. You're the one that is trying to argue Xavier didn't really help Emma (he did). You're the one who is trying to argue that none of the P5 save Emma and Scott had telepathy (they did). You're the one trying to ague that none of the P5 received any other physical amps or extra powers save to their original mutations (they did). This is all plain fact and you're just trying to take circumstantial character statements and pieces of non-evidence to cobble up a weak rebuttal.

I don't care what you think Bendis did based on an ignorant and uninformed character statement by Wolverine.

Because P5 Namor is amped by the phucking Phoenixforce. If that never entered your mind, think on it first before repeating yourself.

ODG

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I'm not following you here. He wasn't constantly hooked up to the Omega Machine when he was in prison either. The machine was in a different room. Prisoners would be taken to the Omega Machine and drained.

What's clear is that the writers had conflicting takes ont eh P5 Bendis, Aaron and even Gillen had different takes to Hickman and Hopeless. And Xavier wasn't hooked up to this machine when he helped Emma. You're confusing yourself.

What's clear is circumstantial non-character statements (Wolverine not bothering to mention other telepaths like P5 Scott, Namor, Magik, Colossus and Psylocke and Stepford Cuckoos) has absolutely no bearing on clear, unequivocal character statements (P2 Emma saying they were all telepathic) and clear, on-panel displays of telepathy. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
He didn't communicate with Zzzax telepathically. He learnt the language because the Phoenix Force granted them knowledge.

And Mljonir is not so awesome? Yes, the Phoenixforce granted him the ability to speak electric via telepathy.

Compete non-sequitur. If you have nothing to say further, say nothing at all. I don't need your complete concession that Emma's durability was amped when she wasn't splattered by Mjolnir or Hulk in human form. It's just that phucking obvious. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Magik wasn't in demon form when she went toe to toe with Sym though. You're using one feat. Feats are taken on an average on these boards.

She's dazed sinze she went spinning??

So now we're not even talking comics we're talking writing inconsistencies yes? Neither was she in demon form when she got wrecked by Black Widow. Show me proof Magik can no-sell Spider-Man's kick and ragdoll him. I just gave you proof she couldn't.

I'm not even dignifying this with a response.

No, you're trying to project your views on completely circumstantial character statements made by characters who were uninformed at the time, trying to argue that up the ladder to the writers. But whining about writer inconsistency doesn't excuse away all the displays of telepathy and this clear, informed character statement of P2 Emma concerning whether P5 Namor had telepathy:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/P5Emma03.jpg

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by ODG
I just told you that footage was chronologically recorded before Wolverine discusses their telepaths. You can tell because Hawkeye is present when Wolverine is speaking but had been charbroiled by the time Tony started gathering data. Reread the comics. Stop repeating yourself needlessly and stop making me repeat myself. You can blame the writers all you want. Your arguments are left wanting.

I was referring to the Red Hulk issue. He's looking at the footage. It's on one of the scans in the previous page. That happens after because the Avengers are based in Wakanda (Avengers 28).

That is a fair point.

They intimately linked through the Phoenix. It's how they finish each others sentences.

It's pretty clear that, that is how they're intimately linked to each other. No telepathic speech need to be used.

I'm trying to show you that the there are glaring inconsistencies within the crossover. I never said Xavier didn't help Emma get into the White Room. Don't put words in my mouth. I'm trying to provide context. He wasn't at full strength that is a fact. Given the inconsistencies in writing it's reasonable to argue that. In fact it was the Emma vs. Thor fight and the Warbird vs. Emma fight which led me to come to the conclusion that they didn't receive Amps. Also the Magik vs. Thing fight where she went flying. But I can say you've convinced me here in regards to durability. I'm unsure about strength.

That is an assumption. He had a degree of telepathy in the form of a mind link. I have no problem with that since it's semantics. Sentry had mental powers but he didn't train how to use them according to Emma Frost and that's how he got mind raped by Mastermind.

So to what degree does Namor have telepathy? And would taking Phoenix Namor down anymore impressive then taking him down without it?

yaadaveyaa

voidtry solos without question 10/10

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by ODG
And Xavier wasn't hooked up to this machine when he helped Emma. You're confusing yourself.

He was still weakened from being put in it. It only hours since he was rescued.

The Phoenix Force granted him the ability to speak electric. It wasn't via telepathy that's an assumption.

Magik fought Sym in New Mutants and Inferno physically. And Sym is very very strong.

If someone hasn't displayed a power you cannot use it on these boards as proof. It's that simple. Namor did not display mind control. You couldn't argue that Namor can use it. These boards work with feats. Again, you were arguing about semantics. Namor is granted these extra powers. It does not mean he's an Xavier level telepath. It doesn't even mean he's in the same league as Blindfold. Heck it doesn't even mean he can carry out feats that he did not display on panel. So no taking out Phoenix telepathically is not impressive.

ODG

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I was referring to the Red Hulk issue. He's looking at the footage. It's on one of the scans in the previous page. That happens after because the Avengers are based in Wakanda (Avengers 28). Which proves they hadn't gathered nearly as much intel as they could have and did have by AvX #7. So how does incomplete footage improve Rulk's or Wolverine's knowledge such that it overrides P2 Emma's plain intimate and first-hand knowledge? Answer: it doesn't. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
They intimately linked through the Phoenix. It's how they finish each others sentences.

It's pretty clear that, that is how they're intimately linked to each other. No telepathic speech need to be used. Because they're all telepathic, yes.

It's pretty clear that, no telepathic speech bubbles need be used when they're plainly speaking in telepathy. Mindlinking is telepathy. Xavier was speaking to P2 Scott trying to calm him with a scene on the beach in AvX #11 and no telepathic speech bubbles were used. And he wasn't one of the P5 so you can't obfuscate this mindlink notion. So, yea, the absence of telepathic speech bubbles isn't evidence of absence of telepathy:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/P2Scott01.jpg

You need to learn that as virtually all your arguments are based on this singular fallacy. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I'm trying to show you that the there are glaring inconsistencies within the crossover. I never said Xavier didn't help Emma get into the White Room. Don't put words in my mouth. I'm trying to provide context. He wasn't at full strength that is a fact. Given the inconsistencies in writing it's reasonable to argue that. In fact it was the Emma vs. Thor fight and the Warbird vs. Emma fight which led me to come to the conclusion that they didn't receive Amps. Also the Magik vs. Thing fight where she went flying. But I can say you've convinced me here in regards to durability. I'm unsure about strength.

That is an assumption. He had a degree of telepathy in the form of a mind link. I have no problem with that since it's semantics. Sentry had mental powers but he didn't train how to use them according to Emma Frost and that's how he got mind raped by Mastermind.

So to what degree does Namor have telepathy? And would taking Phoenix Namor down anymore impressive then taking him down without it? I don't care what Wolverine believes. Him not mentioning P5 Scott along with Emma and Rachel as telepathic threats was also clearly a blunder on him with regards to assessing big telepathic threats. It's plainly evident that within the four corners of the story, he was being an idiot or was simply uninformed. That makes sense based on the timing of the scene and the context of the story. Nothing further should be drawn from it and nothing worthwhile can be drawn from it that would override P2 Emma's clear, unequivocal statement: they were all telepathic. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
He was still weakened from being put in it. It only hours since he was rescued.

The Phoenix Force granted him the ability to speak electric. It wasn't via telepathy that's an assumption.

Magik fought Sym in New Mutants and Inferno physically. And Sym is very very strong. So you can't quantify how weakened at all?

The assumption is squarely on you.

Feel free to post a scan or give an issue # that proves Magik can no-sell Spider-Man's jumpkicks to the head and can ragdoll Spider-Man. For whatever reason, you're just ignoring Magik being taken to school by Black Widow within the storyline itself, but let's see what special evidence you're relying on that leads you to this intransigience. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
If someone hasn't displayed a power you cannot use it on these boards as proof. It's that simple. Namor did not display mind control. You couldn't argue that Namor can use it. These boards work with feats. Again, you were arguing about semantics. Namor is granted these extra powers. It does not mean he's an Xavier level telepath. It doesn't even mean he's in the same league as Blindfold. Heck it doesn't even mean he can carry out feats that he did not display on panel. So no taking out Phoenix telepathically is not impressive. They displayed it. It's staring you in the face. And common sense should dictate to you that they each had telepathy befitting a Phoenixforce host. P5 Namor clearly isn't on Xavier's level since he got put down with ease. P5 Scott probably wouldn't put up much a fight either, and even with half the Phoenixforce was struggling mightily with Xavier before running away and yoinking P2 Emma's half.

But P5 Namor had telepathy befitting a recipient of 1/5th of the raw Phoenixforce, like P5 Scott and the rest. So taking any of them down is impressive (Emma moreso since she already has a considerable telepathic base). And Xavier clearly outshines any individual P5. It's not like he hasn't operated on that level before or doesn't have intimate experience with the Phoenixforce.

bbrem123

He was possessed by the PF...of course he has telepathic power.

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by ODG
Which proves they hadn't gathered nearly as much intel as they could have and did have by AvX #7. So how does incomplete footage improve Rulk's or Wolverine's knowledge such that it overrides P2 Emma's plain intimate and first-hand knowledge? Answer: it doesn't. Because they're all telepathic, yes.

It's pretty clear that, no telepathic speech bubbles need be used when they're plainly speaking in telepathy. Mindlinking is telepathy. Xavier was speaking to P2 Scott trying to calm him with a scene on the beach in AvX #11 and no telepathic speech bubbles were used. And he wasn't one of the P5 so you can't obfuscate this mindlink notion. So, yea, the absence of telepathic speech bubbles isn't evidence of absence of telepathy:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/P2Scott01.jpg

How is this point relevant though. They weren't on the astral plane when they were communicating long distances in AvX 7.

I can quantify that the after effects of the machine left him in such a weakened state that his thoughts were faint to Beast.

Xavier hasn't. He required Jean Greys help to take down Dark Phoenix in the Dark Phoenix Saga.

It would only be impressive if Namor actually shown the ability to utilize whatever semblance of telepathy he had in a defensive capacity.

It's whatever 1/5 the Phoenix Force grants him. Which is not quantifable because he didn't display anything past being able to talk to his co-hosts.

What about super strength. Did the Phoenix Force amp each host to whatever 1/5 the PF grants them. Yes? Is that impressive? Well it's relative it's a cosmic entities power...Magik could punch out Thing.

ODG

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
How is this point relevant though. They weren't on the astral plane when they were communicating long distances in AvX 7.

I can quantify that the after effects of the machine left him in such a weakened state that his thoughts were faint to Beast. It's relevant when you keep trying to argue that "no telepathic speech bubbles =/= telepathy." The absence of telepathic speech bubbles is not evidence of absence of telepathy. That's the end of it.

After he was freed? No, I don't think so. You never showed that. You only showed him when he was in prison. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Xavier hasn't. He required Jean Greys help to take down Dark Phoenix in the Dark Phoenix Saga.

It would only be impressive if Namor actually shown the ability to utilize whatever semblance of telepathy in a defensive capacity that the Phoenix granted him.

It's whatever 1/5 the Phoenix Force grants him. Which is not quantifable because he didn't display anything past being able to talk to his co-hosts.

What about super strength. Did the Phoenix Force amp each host to whatever 1/5 the PF grants them. Yes? Is that impressive? Well...Magik could punch out Thing. I am not trying to prove Xavier can take on a full Phoenixforce host by himself. He obviously couldn't deal with Dark Phoenix Scott. But there should be no questioning he can deal with 1/5th of that sort of telepathic power (as he did with P5 Namor) when he was doing pretty darn well against 1/2 of that power (as he was against P2 Scott).

Taking down an entity possessing 1/5th of the Phoenixforce is not unimpressive.

It's also not questionable based on you having no evidence. What we do know is that they each received an equal 1/5th portion of the Phoenixforce. So common sense dictates they were receiving relatively equal amps (their own natural gifts notwithstanding). We see them all display incredible levels of telekinesis and pyrokinesis. Why would P5 Namor arbitrarily get no telepathy?

This makes no sense. If you have evidence that P5 Namor received no telepathy and P5 Magik received no extra strength, post it. All you're doing is begging meaningless questions in contravention of clear on-panel evidence to the contrary. Originally posted by bbrem123
He was possessed by the PF...of course he has telepathic power. This guy gets it.

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by ODG
It's relevant when you keep trying to argue that "no telepathic speech bubbles =/= telepathy." The absence of telepathic speech bubbles is not evidence of absence of telepathy. That's the end of it.

What it indicates is that on the astral plane there's no need for telepathic speech bubbles.

He was aided by Rachel, Dr. Strange, Psylocke when he took on Phoenix 2 Cyclops. So that's not a fair assumption to make.

And he took out a character with an unquanitfiable level of telepathy. And one who displayed zero feats in using it offensively or defensively.

The Phoenix Force grants God-Like telekinesis so it explains why they were granted god-like telekinesis.

Cyclops can block Mljonir with his pinky. Magik can't block a punch from the Thing.

ODG

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
What it indicates is that on the astral plane there's no need for telepathic speech bubbles.

He was aided by Rachel, Dr. Strange, Psylocke when he took on Phoenix 2 Cyclops. So that's not a fair assumption to make.

And he took out a character with an unquanitfiable level of telepathy. And one who displayed zero feats in using it offensively or defensively. Admitting that telepathic speech bubbles need not always be present supports my position and weakens your's. The shoe isn't on the other foot here. So, yea.

P2 Scott was also aided by P2 Emma. So, yea.

To you it's unquantifiable. To me, it's patently quantifiable because it was exactly 1/5th of the raw Phoenixforce he received. No more, no less. None of them received a smaller or bigger portion. And you have no evidence that the Phoenixforce specially excluded Namor from a share of increased telepathy like Scott received. Feel free to make that argument with proof. So, yea.

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by ODG
Admitting that telepathic speech bubbles need not always be present supports my position and weakens your's. The shoe isn't on the other foot here. So, yea.

P2 Scott was also aided by P2 Emma. So, yea.

To you it's unquantifiable. To me, it's patently quantifiable because it was exactly 1/5th of the raw Phoenixforce he received. No more, no less. None of them received a smaller or bigger portion. And you have no evidence that the Phoenixforce specially excluded Namor from a share of increased telepathy like Scott received. Feel free to make that argument with proof. So, yea.

Well that scene took place on the astral plane. So I wouldn't see the need to use speech bubbles there. The other scenes in AvX 7 are not. So no.

I'm not the one who said Professor X did well against Phoenix 2 Cyclops you did. You left out the part where he was aided.

I didn't say it especially excluded Namor. All Cyclops displayed telepathically was communication as well.

Emma couldn't take the Hulk on physically. So one fifth the Phoenix Force strength translates to strength much less then the Hulk. It would be the same with whatever semblance of telepathy he had.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Emma couldn't take the Hulk on physically. So one fifth the Phoenix Force strength translates to strength much less then the Hulk. It would be the same with whatever semblance of telepathy he had.
Emma had half the PF when she faced the Hulk, and the result of their physical tangle was inconclusive as she then blasted him backwards before being betrayed by Scott.

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Emma had half the PF when she faced the Hulk, and the result of their physical tangle was inconclusive as she then blasted him backwards before being betrayed by Scott.

Red Hulk.

And the one she was blasting backwards was Red Hulk. The same scene is shown in Uncanny X-Men 18 IRRC.

And I'm trying to remember the issue where Phoenix Magik got decked by Thing I think it was Legacy.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Red Hulk.
She had one-fourth the PF then, and didn't she begin to fight him in her diamond form before Cyclops butted in to make an example of him to the others
Originally posted by ExodusCloak

And the one she was blasting backwards was Red Hulk. The same scene is shown in Uncanny X-Men 18 IRRC.
I am not talking about that scene(I know perfectly well what you're referring to here since you were the one who clarified that stuff on the Ownage thread), I am talking about her blasting off Hulk off-panel before getting to deal with the Rulk.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak

And I'm trying to remember the issue where Phoenix Magik got decked by Thing I think it was Legacy.
It was an uncanny tie in, and I doubt it proves anything as Thing only managed to BFR her, no long term damage done. Iceman proceeded to beat up Ben after that incident with Magik.

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
She had one-fourth the PF then, and didn't she begin to fight him in her diamond form before Cyclops butted in to make an example of him to the others

Ross mentioned Namor there though. I think it was 5.

Iceman?? In Uncanny? It must Wolverine and the X-Men. I'll have a look. I need to see the scene again.

ODG

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Well that scene took place on the astral plane. So I wouldn't see the need to use speech bubbles there. The other scenes in AvX 7 are not. So no.

I'm not the one who said Professor X did well against Phoenix 2 Cyclops you did. You left out the part where he was aided. Which means that you don't need telepathic speech bubbles all the time when it's completely obvious they're using tp. Like Colossus, Emma and Scott talking to each other when they're in different areas of the Earth. So, yea.

Same as you leaving out the part that P2 Emma was fighting alongside P2 Scott. So, yea. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I didn't say it especially excluded Namor. All Cyclops displayed telepathically was communication as well.

Emma couldn't take the Hulk on physically. So one fifth the Phoenix Force strength translates to strength much less then the Hulk. It would be the same with whatever semblance of telepathy he had. Good gravy, are you serious? Cyclops cannot fight off Xavier and give him nosebleeds without a blatant telepathic amp from the Phoenixforce! "Communication only" my a$$.

The fact that you ignore her surviving a double-fist pound cheapshot through Utopia without being hurt is one thing. Whatever. But you're using the absence of evidence of Hulk-strength levels for P5 Emma to approximate P5 Namor's telepathy? What stops me from using the presence of evidence of Emma-tp levels for P5 Emma to approximate P5 Namor's telepathy then? Considering we know they each received an equal portion of the raw Phoenixforce.

I mean, you don't even see how absurdly you're pressing your arguments. I'll leave you to figure out just how backwards you are before it smacks you right in the face. If you do, I'll give you more credit than you deserve up til now.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Ross mentioned Namor there though. I think it was 5.

I don't recall the exact issue that story took place in, but I am fairly confident that it was after Namor's siege of Wakanda.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak

Iceman?? In Uncanny? It must Wolverine and the X-Men. I'll have a look. I need to see the scene again.
Maybe it wasn't Uncanny then. Yes Iceman, and I clearly remember it because zopzop made a big fuss of that scene on the Ownage thread.

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by ODG
Which means that you don't need telepathic speech bubbles all the time when it's completely obvious they're using tp. Like Colossus, Emma and Scott talking to each other when they're in different areas of the Earth. So, yea.

Same as you leaving out the part that P2 Emma was fighting alongside P2 Scott. So, yea. Good gravy, are you serious? Cyclops cannot fight off Xavier and give him nosebleeds without an amp to his telepathy.

You left out Emma who was there too. And we're talking about Phoenix 5 Cyclops not Phoenix 2 because that's how you're gauging Namors "telepathy".

Emma was already a telepath. Like Namor already had super strength. So they'd be stronger in those bases. Emma also has the knowledge and experience of being a telepath.

And most of what you're suggesting is speculation. Even if he did have the power there's no indication that he knew how to use it to defend himself. Or how competent he was with the power. And on top of that Xavier ambush them all and it took time.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I don't recall the exact issue that story took place in, but I am fairly confident that it was after Namor's siege of Wakanda.

Maybe it wasn't Uncanny then. Yes Iceman, and I clearly remember it because zopzop made a big fuss of that scene on the Ownage thread.

Just looked at it. It was before. Cyclops blasts a X in Rulks chest and they send him to Wakanda as a message.

Thanks It was Wolverine and the X-Men 14.

ODG

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
You left out Emma who was there too. Because the main telepathic fight was between Scott and Xavier. Both sides had allies, and P2 Scott's ally was far more formidable, but that's irrelevant. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Emma was already a telepath. Like Namor already had super strength. So they'd be stronger in those bases. Emma also has the knowledge and experience of being a telepath. Ha, you started to see it. So, let's nail down your hypocritical attitude right now.

#1 You already refuse and deny that receiving 1/5th of the Phoenixforce means you get telepathic amps. Which, in itself, is an insult to common sense. I mean... it's a psionic entity and quite possibly the most powerful psionic entity in Marvel, but whatever. #2 You also refuse to take the clear amps and extra abilities they received as any sort of correlative measure by which telepathy should be amped since it tends to prove P5 Namor's telepathy was on their level. After all, P5 Namor possessed considerable telekinesis/pyrokinesis, but that is supposedly meaningless in proving considerable telepathy because dammit... no actual tp feats that you like.

So based on all that... what evidence do you have that P5 Emma actually received a substantial telepathic amp herself? #1 Phoenixforce doesn't automatically imbue a host with telepathic abilities beyond mere communication. #2 And she didn't do anything in AvX she couldn't already do. So dammit, no actual tp+ feats beyond her original levels. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
And most of what you're suggesting is speculation. Even if he did have the power there's no indication that he knew how to use it to defend himself. Or how competent he was with the power. And, so most of what you're suggesting is speculation. To be clear, you originally speculated (based on no feats) that P5 Emma could achieve on her own what Emma and Xavier achieved together with Sentry. Even if P5 Emma did have the power there's no indication that she could achieve levels approaching, much less surpassing, Xavier's added prowess (as weakened as however you arbitrarily declare him to be). And since P5 Scott is useless to you with only his basic "communication only" telepathy, she's got nobody else to rely on except herself.

Let me ask you this, how does your own arbitrary logic taste? I'd say it was sh1tty, since you just argued yourself into such a corner that you gutted your own original premise. But it's not like I didn't see this coming.

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by ODG
Because the main telepathic fight was between Scott and Xavier. Both sides had allies, and P2 Scott's ally was far more formidable, but that's irrelevant. Ha, you started to see it. So, let's nail down your hypocritical attitude right now.

#1 You already refuse and deny that receiving 1/5th of the Phoenixforce means you get telepathic amps. Which, in itself, is an insult to common sense. I mean... it's a psionic entity and quite possibly the most powerful psionic entity in Marvel, but whatever. #2 You also refuse to take the clear amps and extra abilities they received as any sort of correlative measure by which telepathy should be amped since it tends to prove P5 Namor's telepathy was on their level. After all, P5 Namor possessed considerable telekinesis, but that is supposedly meaningless in proving considerable telepathy without actual feats.

So based on all that... what evidence do you have that P5 Emma actually received a substantial telepathic amp herself? #1 Phoenixforce doesn't automatically imbue a host with telepathic abilities beyond mere communication. #2 And she didn't do anything in AvX she couldn't already do. No feats showing super-telepathy beyond her original levels. And, so most of what you're suggesting is speculation. To be clear, you originally speculated (based on no feats) that P5 Emma could achieve on her own what Emma and Xavier achieved together with Sentry. Even if P5 Emma did have the power there's no indication that she could achieve levels approaching, much less surpassing, Xavier's added prowess (as weakened as however you arbitrarily declare him to be). And since P5 Scott is useless to you with only his basic "communication only" telepathy, she's got nobody else to rely on except herself.

Let me ask you this, how does your own arbitrary logic taste? I'd say it was sh1tty, since you just argued yourself into such a corner that you gutted your own original premise.

In Avengers Academy, Phoenix 5 Emma explains to X-23 that she received an amp to her telepathy. And even explains to X-23 that she could heal her trauma within seconds something she admits herself she couldn't previously do.

BTW I think you're the one who argued themselves into a corner here. Since Phoenix 5 Cyclops apparently has 1/5th the telepathic raw power of the Phoenix Force and all. stick out tongue

And the Phoenix Force snikt is telekinetic godhood first and foremost.

TheGodKiller

P5 Emma failing against Thor while Xaiver succeeded is enough to suggest to me that irrespective of what level of amp she got from the 1/5th the PF , it still didn't put her on Xavier's level in terms of raw telepathic might.

ODG

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
In Avengers Academy, Phoenix 5 Emma explains to X-23 that she received an amp to her telepathy. And even explains to X-23 that she could heal her trauma within seconds something she admits herself she couldn't previously do.

BTW I think you're the one who argued themselves into a corner here. Since Phoenix 5 Cyclops apparently has 1/5th the telepathic raw power of the Phoenix Force and all. stick out tongue

And the Phoenix Force snikt is telekinetic godhood first and foremost. But not an amp that proves she could approach, much less surpass Xavier's assistance when tackling Sentry since she has no actual tp+ feats in AvX. As you kept trying to force the issue... speculation, speculation, speculation. Apparently, the absence of evidence doesn't overcome common sense. But... y'know... it's not my argument.

One of my first statements was that P5 Scott is nowhere near Xavier in telepathic power anyway, so... that'd be a no. You're the one who argued he only got a "communication only" tp amp. So for you, it's P5 Emma all by her lonesome here in a violent fight trying to replicate a feat that Emma+Xavier with prep and in safety just barely managed.

It really isn't. You can't separate out the cosmic fire from the uber telekinesis from the telepathic godhood just because you don't like how the evidence is starting to stack up.

ODG

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
P5 Emma failing against Thor while Xaiver succeeded is enough to suggest to me that irrespective of what level of amp she got from the 1/5th the PF , it still didn't put her on Xavier's level in terms of raw telepathic might. Damn, I was going to hold onto that card. But you're right to point this out. Apparently this unquantifiable (as ExodusCloak loves to argue) tp amp couldn't even help her overcome being mindphucked by Thor or deal with Rulk in mid-transformation.

So, yea.

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
P5 Emma failing against Thor while Xaiver succeeded is enough to suggest to me that irrespective of what level of amp she got from the 1/5th the PF , it still didn't put her on Xavier's level in terms of raw telepathic might.

Xavier ambushed them all though (Rachel Grey included). Emma abushed Xavier in X-Men Legacy 215 and 216 and rendered him helpless.

Anyway AvX 4 had this line in it so read into it whatever you want. "Emma Frost is one of the most powerful telepaths on the planet. But has she ever looked into the mind of a-- oh god." IMO that doesn't imply anything to do with raw telepathic might. More so experience with gods minds.

And because people actually think I'm taking the piss with the telepathy/phoenix/telekinetic thing here. This is where that's from:
http://i50.tinypic.com/33vcj74.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/1zv92l3.jpg

Originally posted by ODG
But not an amp that proves she could approach, much less surpass Xavier's assistance when tackling Sentry since she has no actual tp+ feats in AvX. As you kept trying to force the issue... speculation, speculation, speculation. Apparently, the absence of evidence doesn't overcome common sense. But... y'know... it's not my argument.

One of my first statements was that P5 Scott is nowhere near Xavier in telepathic power anyway, so... that'd be a no. You're the one who argued he only got a "communication only" tp amp. So for you, it's P5 Emma all by her lonesome here in a violent fight trying to replicate a feat that Emma+Xavier with prep and in safety just barely managed.

You're basing that on him ambushing Phoenix Namor right? Except this is an arbitarily weakened Xavier. So is P5 Scott nowhere near a weakened Xavier in telepathic power?

See the scans above.

ODG

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Xavier ambushed them all though (Rachel Grey included). Emma abushed Xavier in X-Men Legacy 215 and 216 and rendered him helpless. So what? P2 Scott was still struggling with Xavier even when he knew he was there and that was a Scott with 1/2 the Phoenixforce, not 1/5th. And Xavier may have surprised Rachel Grey, but Xavier stood revealed and asked her not to fight and said, "I don't want to overpower you." Which he did when Rachel assaulted him. In fact, the only one trying peculiarly hard to ignore preemptive strikes here is you, since Emma+Xavier completely ambushed an unsuspecting Sentry who was stomping on Namor. Needless to say, P5 Emma doesn't get to hide here in this thread in safety. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Anyway AvX 4 had this line in it so read into it whatever you want. "Emma Frost is one of the most powerful telepaths on the planet. But has she ever looked into the mind of a-- oh god."

And because people actually think I'm taking the piss with the telepathy/phoenix/telekinetic thing here. This is where that's from:
http://i50.tinypic.com/33vcj74.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/1zv92l3.jpg Exactly. So much for this unquantifiable amp helping her meaningfully.

Irrelevant. I can post scans talking about Phoenixforce being the veritable cosmic fire of creation and being composed of the universe's psionic energy. This is nothing but an irrelevant statement of unextraordinary fact. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
You're basing that on him ambushing Phoenix Namor right? Except this is an arbitarily weakened Xavier. So is P5 Scott nowhere near a weakened Xavier in telepathic power?

See the scans above. P5 Scott has "communication only" tp according to you. So according to you, obviously he isn't.

Again, irrelevant. You tried so hard to strip the four P5 co-hosts of any meaningful telepathy amps that you ended up self-destructing your own argument that P5 Emma alone could achieve in a violent fight, what Emma+Xavier achieved with prep and safety and distraction. Based on what? Nothing, it seems.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Xavier ambushed them all though (Rachel Grey included). Emma abushed Xavier in X-Men Legacy 215 and 216 and rendered him helpless.
Xavier ordered a a charging Namor(along with pretty much everyone else) to "Sleep!" and they did. Emma trapped Xavier in the Astral Plane shaped like Scott's mindscape after enough time to bind herself within his subconscious even as he was trying to "help" Scott. Plus not to mention that in the beginning of #216, Xavier openly declared his superiority over her telepathic capabilities.

As the Sinister-Tiamut fiasco shows, Emma is intimately familiar with Scott's mind to the point that she could do what Hope failed at. Her being able to do that to Xavier within Scott's mind is like Mephisto being able imprison a portion of Gaea within Hades. Hardly conclusive to prove that Mephisto>Gaea('s portion).

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by ODG
So what? P2 Scott was still struggling with Xavier even when he knew he was there and that was a Scott with 1/2 the Phoenixforce, not 1/5th. And Xavier may have surprised Rachel Grey, but Xavier stood revealed and asked her not to fight and said, "I don't want to overpower you." Which he did when Rachel assaulted him. In fact, the only one trying peculiarly hard to ignore preemptive strikes here is you, since Emma+Xavier completely ambushed an unsuspecting Sentry who was stomping on Namor. Needless to say, P5 Emma doesn't get to hide here in this thread in safety. Exactly. So much for this unquantifiable amp helping her meaningfully.
Xavier also openly declared that Emma wasn't a match for him in a tp fight in the beginning of X-Men Legacy#216. Emma replied that it was a moot point as they weren't going to fight anyways.

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by ODG
So what? P2 Scott was still struggling with Xavier even when he knew he was there and that was a Scott with half the Phoenixforce, not 1/5th. And Xavier may have surprised Rachel Grey, but Xavier stood revealed and asked her not to fight and said, "I don't want to overpower you." Which he did when Rachel assaulted him. In fact, the only one trying hard to ignore preemptive strikes here is you, since Emma+Xavier completely ambushed an unsuspecting Sentry who was stomping on Namor. Needless to say, P5 Emma doesn't get to hide here in this thread in safety. Exactly. So much for this unquantifiable amp helping her meaningfully.

Except Phoenix 2 Cyclops did not want to kill. Emma and Cyclops discussed this before. And a part of their consciousness was elsewhere having dinner.

That's a fair point about Rachel but he ambushed Phoenix Namor. Just like Emma ambushed him.

And that's another fair point I guess but P5 Emma and Cyclops have added durability. And Emma can become intangible as flame. But it is a fair point it would be difficult to replicate the feat under pressure.

This thread is meaningless. I'm merely presenting facts and context which is what you're choosing to ignore. I still don't believe that it was Bendis intention to make the Phoenix 5 telepaths. It wasn't Aarons either. And that's what's being lost here. You can be as aggressive as you want doesn't change the context that the story was written in. There was no need to have Spider-Woman or Wolverine make those comments in the story. Niether was there for Ross. If Bendis' intention was to make the all the Phoenix 5 hosts telepaths.

I'm happy to concede in regards to the fight. Replicating the feat under pressure could be difficult.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Xavier ordered a a charging Namor(along with pretty much everyone else) to "Sleep!" and they did. Emma trapped Xavier in the Astral Plane shaped like Scott's mindscape after enough time to bind herself within his subconscious even as he was trying to "help" Scott. Plus not to mention that in the beginning of #216, Xavier openly declared his superiority over her telepathic capabilities.

As the Sinister-Tiamut fiasco shows, Emma is intimately familiar with Scott's mind to the point that she could do what Hope failed at. Her being able to do that to Xavier within Scott's mind is like Mephisto being able imprison a portion of Gaea within Hades. Hardly conclusive to prove that Mephisto>Gaea('s portion).

It's no different to what Xavier did to the Avengers and Namor. He came prepped to take Rachel down and was linked with Wolverine and the Avengers. She also blocked his power in World War Hulk X-Men. Also it was stated that Rachel was blocking Namors presence from Xavier.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
It's no different to what Xavier did to the Avengers and Namor. She also blocked his power in World War Hulk X-Men. Also it was stated that Rachel was blocking Namors presence from Xavier.
Well, I don't see it that way, but to each his own.

bbrem123

all I know is nobody here is assaulting Voidtry.

ODG

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Except Phoenix 2 Cyclops did not want to kill. Emma and Cyclops discussed this before. And a part of their consciousness was elsewhere having dinner.

That's a fair point about Rachel but he ambushed Phoenix Namor. Just like Emma ambushed him.

And that's another fair point I guess but P5 Emma and Cyclops have added durability. And Emma can become intangible as flame. But it is a fair point it would be difficult to replicate the feat under pressure. Xavier did not want to kill P2 Cyclops either. So having a telepathic dinner means he could have brought more telepathic power to bear on Xavier? Ok, that makes sense. Need I remind you that P5 Namor had a telepathic affair whilst warring in Wakanda, y'know?

No... P5 Namor saw Xavier overpower Rachel and bumrushed him before being put down with the rest.

At this point, stripping them completely of meaningful telepathy amps and strength amps like you tried to originally do, it'd be near impossible for them to replicate. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
This thread is meaningless. I'm merely presenting facts and context which is what you're choosing to ignore. I still don't believe that it was Bendis intention to make the Phoenix 5 telepaths. It wasn't Aarons either. And that's what's being lost here. You can be as aggressive as you want doesn't change the context that the story was written in. There was no need to have Spider-Woman or Wolverine make those comments in the story. Niether was there for Ross. If Bendis' intention was to make the all the Phoenix 5 hosts telepaths.

I'm happy to concede in regards to the fight. Replicating the feat under pressure could be difficult.

It's no different to what Xavier did to the Avengers and Namor. He came prepped to take Rachel down and was linked with Wolverine and the Avengers. She also blocked his power in World War Hulk X-Men. Also it was stated that Rachel was blocking Namors presence from Xavier. Your "revisionist" efforts notwithstanding, you actually never mentioned Xavier's assistance in the first place. I was the one providing that meaningful and necessary context. So again, I don't see how the shoe's on the other foot here.

There is no need to take Wolverine's uninformed, circumstantial (and patently incorrect) character statement over P2 Emma's well-informed, clear (and patently obvious) character statement. Wolverine being stupid within the four corners of the comic =/= writers being stupid outside the four corners in their offices.

Just as there was no need to try to strip any of the P5 from the physical amps they received or the psionic abilities they exhibited to collaterally support P5 Namor having no telepathy. He did. He participated in telepathic conferences, he had a telepathic affair while assaulting Wakanda, P2 Emma said he possessed telepathy blatantly. That may not provide for a flattering comparison between the individual P5 and Xavier, but that's the comics. And that's all I ever tried to say.

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by ODG
There is no need to take Wolverine's uninformed, circumstantial (and patently incorrect) character statement over P2 Emma's well-informed, clear (and patently obvious) character statement.

That may not provide for a flattering comparison between the individual P5 and Xavier, but that's the comics. And that's all I ever tried to say.

I'm not refering to the fight here. This is about presenting a comic with clarity.

I feel that Gillen was pretty clear with his intent and how he wanted to approach the Phoenix 5 and the unique bond they shared with one another.

Bendis was definitely not as he kept hammering that point within Avengers 28 and 29. Surely clarity of a comic takes presedence. If the idea was to depict Wolverines incompetence surely the resolution to that would be to depict it within the comic? Bendis wouldn't have hammered the point if his intent was to depict the Phoenix 5 that way. And to do it in two comics as well. I'm even looking at the AvX main issues he wrote and it could be read with the same frame of thought in mind.

Aaron was also definitely not either given the confrontation with the Hellfire Brats. If that was the intention.

Hickman was quite clear, the Phoenix 5 had telepathy. But he only wrote one issue with them.

I think Brubakers work was safe. And was left open enough for ambigiouty IRRC.

Fraction had Emma find Hopes location. But it's open ended enough. Cyclops could have been written without it or he could have had it and Emma's telepathy could just be greater.

Hopeless again had an issue where the computer screen that showed Cyclops having telepathy, telekinesis and optic blasts.

I don't remember any of the stuff in Christos Gages comics cause they were quite bad compared to the others.

ODG

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I'm not refering to the fight here. This is about presenting a comic with clarity.

I feel that Gillen was pretty clear with his intent and how he wanted to approach the Phoenix 5 and the unique bond they shared with one another.

Bendis was definitely not as he kept hammering that point within Avengers 28 and 29. Surely clarity of a comic takes presedence. If the idea was to depict Wolverines incompetence surely the resolution to that would be to depict it within the comic? Bendis wouldn't have hammered the point if his intent was to depict the Phoenix 5 that way. And to do it in two comics as well. I'm even looking at the AvX main issues he wrote and it could be read with the same frame of thought in mind.

Aaron was also definitely not either given the confrontation with the Hellfire Brats. If that was the intention.

Hickman was quite clear, the Phoenix 5 had telepathy. But he only wrote one issue with them.

I think Brubakers work was safe. And was left open enough for ambigiouty IRRC.

Fraction had Emma find Hopes location. But it's open ended enough. Cyclops could have been written without it or he could have had it and Emma's telepathy could just be greater.

Hopeless again had an issue where the computer screen that showed Cyclops having telepathy, telekinesis and optic blasts.

I don't remember any of the stuff in Christos Gages comics cause they were quite bad compared to the others. Just how uniformed Wolverine and Spider-Woman were, was depicted with enough clarity to me.

Bendis didn't hammer anything other than making P5 Emma look bad against Rulk and making Rachel look good in a fight (but still out of Xavier's class). And bluntly speaking, limiting P5 Namor to a single issue appearance where Rachel is the star doesn't serve anything but foster a biased viewpoint. After all, I could use that single Rulk issue and argue that P5 Emma would get roflstomped by Void Sentry both physically and telepathically.

P5 Namor was telepathic, they all were and they showed it in other issues. They were the hosts for equal portions of the Phoenixforce, after all. Nuff said.

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by ODG
^ Just how uniformed Wolverine and Spider-Woman were, was depicted with enough clarity to me.

Bendis didn't hammer anything other than making P5 Emma look bad against Rulk and making Rachel look good in a fight (but still out of Xavier's class). And bluntly speaking, limiting P5 Namor to a single issue appearance where Rachel is the star doesn't serve anything but foster a biased viewpoint. After all, I could use that single Rulk issue and argue that P5 Emma would get roflstomped by Void Sentry both physically and telepathically.

I was using the context of the issue he was taken down in telepathically though to see the writers intent of the incident we were talking about for like half this thread.

And to have Charles Xavier say Rachel was shielding Namor instead of himself? You thought that was clear? In all Honestly?

Is wasn't just Wolverine and Spider-Woman. In the previous issue, Ross makes the same mistake?

What about Jason Aaron, having Emma have to explain to Cyclops who the Hellfire Brats were and what was in their minds? Do you think that was written well?

I guess that's getting off topic anyway. But IMHO I don't think he was trying to showcase Ross', Spider-Woman or Wolverines incompetence. Aaron and him were helming the event. And IMO it looks like it wasn't coordinated very well. But to each their own I guess.

ODG

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I was using the context of the issue he was taken down in telepathically though to see the writers intent.

And to have Charles Xavier have Rachel shield Namor instead of himself? You thought that was clear? In all Honestly?

Is wasn't just Wolverine and Spider-Man in the previous issue, Ross makes the same mistake?

What about Jason Aaron, having Emma have to explain to Cyclops who the Hellfire Brats were and what was in their minds? Do you think that was written well?

I guess that's getting off topic anyway. But IMHO I don't think he was trying to showcase Ross', Spider-Woman or Wolverines incompetence. Aaron and him were helming the event. And IMO it looks like it wasn't coordinated very well. You're projecting yourself onto the comics. Taking circumstantial poo and trying to remarket it as gold whilst ignoring solid unequivocal evidence.

I don't know how you obsess over any of this non-evidence crap and ignore something blatant like this:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/P5Emma03.jpg

Or ignore the dozen other telepathic conversations they had throughout the entire series or the fact that it's the phucking Phoenixforce. Might as well argue Thor can't fly or the Thor writers are stupidly confused over his capabilities because sometimes we see him riding horses or walking around in scenes.

The absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence. Nothing more need be said.

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by ODG
You're projecting yourself onto the comics. Taking circumstantial poo and trying to remarket it as gold whilst ignoring solid unequivocal evidence.

I don't know how you obsess over any of this non-evidence crap and ignore something blatant like this:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/P5Emma03.jpg

Or ignore the dozen other telepathic conversations they had throughout the entire series or the fact that it's the phucking Phoenixforce. Might as well argue Thor can't fly or the Thor writers are stupidly confused over his capabilities because sometimes we see him riding horses or walking around in scenes.

The absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence. Nothing more need be said.

Gillens not Bendis though. And I was talking about Bendis' intent. Gillen didn't write Avengers 28 or 29. Gillen had a very clear plan and even talked about the bond of the Phoenix 5 in his interviews and on his forumspring. So it was quite clear. That being said Bendis also had a clear plan but it clashed with the other writers depictions.

And every writer has different takes on the Phoenix Force and what it can and cannot do.

For example the Phoenix was stated to be unable to act on the physical plane without a host in Phoenix Rising. But in AvX it could and broke planets. AvX was supposed to streamline this.

ODG

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Gillens not Bendis though. And I was talking about Bendis' intent. Gillen didn't write Avengers 28 or 29. Gillen had a very clear plan and even talked about the bond of the Phoenix 5 in his interviews and on his forumspring. So it was quite clear. That being said Bendis also had a clear plan but it clashed with the other writers depictions.

And every writer has different takes on the Phoenix Force and what it can and cannot do. Who cares about what Bendis didn't write in that one issue. Bendis not writing P5 Namor using telepathy overtly in that one issue doesn't somehow eliminate his telepathic abilities shown in a bunch of other issues and that would obviously be gained from possessing 1/5th of the Phoenixforce. Originally posted by ExodusCloak
For example the Phoenix was stated to be unable to act on the physical plane without a host in Phoenix Rising. But in AvX it could and broke planets. AvX was supposed to streamline this. Go ahead and believe that the raw Phoenixforce cannot act on the physical plane when there are a bunch of issues that show it can and did. That kind of ridiculous stance completely encapsulates your stance in this thread. You're just focusing on the absence of evidence -- which in itself is a complete fallacy -- but is especially irresponsible when there is actual evidence proving the proposition.

You cannot possibly justify such a blatant treatment of the comics. Just because Superman doesn't use superbreath in every comic or sometimes inexplicably doesn't use it when it would have perfectly served the situation he was in or sometimes doesn't use it in a comic he's not even starring in doesn't strip him of the ability to use superbreath. Nor does any of that make Superman writers confused and contradictory over what his powers are.

Absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence, ffs. And no matter how many different ways you're trying to present it, you've offered no justification for it.