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Always wondered about this. How important is collateral damage when its concerning a fight? Example...let's say if someone toppled a Celestial with a punch and damaged him would that punch be greater than what WBH did in the dark dimension? Which is important, collateral damage or power level (damaging something of significant power above yours)?

They are both very important.

One thing I'll say however, sometimes non-descript displays of power than just involves knocking down or hurting a tough opponent MAY have jobbing/pis involved.

But collateral damage is a pretty straightforward and undeniable show of power.

Collateral damage, when we see it, is obviously a pretty definitive showing of power.

Not seeing it, though, doesn't mean that the characters are somehow lacking in power; it's a part of the medium that you can't show as much collateral damage as powers imply. Otherwise everytime Superman or Hulk dukes it out with someone, the shockwaves from their punches alone (even with shock absorption taken in to account) would likely kill anyone close by.

Power level will always, imo, take precedence when shown through peer-to-peer interactions, fights, and of course feats.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Collateral damage, when we see it, is obviously a pretty definitive showing of power.

Not seeing it, though, doesn't mean that the characters are somehow lacking in power; it's a part of the medium that you can't show as much collateral damage as powers imply. Otherwise everytime Superman or Hulk dukes it out with someone, the shockwaves from their punches alone (even with shock absorption taken in to account) would likely kill anyone close by.

Power level will always, imo, take precedence when shown through peer-to-peer interactions, fights, and of course feats.


Great post.

hulk slams into hulkbuster ironman (broke windows all over and f'd shit up indirectly) just like he did his wife, only difference is that latter was exponentially more powerful, scientific notation worthy

Collateral damage is over rated (but fun in forum fights). As evidence, I give you the "BILLION DIMENSION SLAGGING" blast of Pre-Retcon MM. He hit and actually staggered PR Beyonder with that sh|t and the walls in Marsha's apartment building weren't even singed! LOL.

Another example. Bor, big poppa of the Norse Pantheon. Even more powerful than Odin and Serpent was fighting Thor, who at the time I believe had full possession of the Thorforce, making him Odin's equal if not more powerful.

The fight iirc might have made some cracks in one small part of a city block. Maybe they knocked over a lightpost.

I'm 'amazed' at how fast collateral damage in a comic-book city gets repaired, something I never thought about until after 9-11. I mean, in RL, can you imagine how long it would take to repair the damage from WBH's footsteps?

That's something I liked about "Hancock": the film did somewhat address the reality of collateral damage resulting when a superbeing does his thing, how expensive repair is, how collateral damage can affect public opinion, etc.

Originally posted by Mindship
I'm 'amazed' at how fast collateral damage in a comic-book city gets repaired, something I never thought about until after 9-11. I mean, in RL, can you imagine how long it would take to repair the damage from WBH's footsteps?

That's something I liked about "Hancock": the film did somewhat address the reality of collateral damage resulting when a superbeing does his thing, how expensive repair is, how collateral damage can affect public opinion, etc.
Not really that incredible once you think about it.

I mean you have heroes that can lift hundreds of tons of crap, move stuff with their minds, rearrange molecules, warp reality, etc... I'm sure they pitch in off panel to help repair any damage caused.

Hell, you have people like Franklin Richards, who can basically create another universe if 616 reality gets too messed up.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Collateral damage, when we see it, is obviously a pretty definitive showing of power.

Not seeing it, though, doesn't mean that the characters are somehow lacking in power; it's a part of the medium that you can't show as much collateral damage as powers imply. Otherwise everytime Superman or Hulk dukes it out with someone, the shockwaves from their punches alone (even with shock absorption taken in to account) would likely kill anyone close by.

Power level will always, imo, take precedence when shown through peer-to-peer interactions, fights, and of course feats.

Originally posted by zopzop
Not really that incredible once you think about it.

I mean you have heroes that can lift hundreds of tons of crap, move stuff with their minds, rearrange molecules, warp reality, etc... I'm sure they pitch in off panel to help repair any damage caused.

Hell, you have people like Franklin Richards, who can basically create another universe if 616 reality gets too messed up. Good point...

...though now and then, I wouldn't mind seeing them metas helping out in-panel (perhaps they have -- I just missed it) to give creedence to what you said, which does make sense.

I've seen Flash, GL and Superman at the very least offer to help and at times actually help, but it does seem pretty rare to see it on panel.

Sentry unleashing the power of "million exploding" suns barely damaged the neighbourhood...

Originally posted by SamZED
Sentry unleashing the power of "million exploding" suns barely damaged the neighbourhood...

And somehow nobody dies when this shit happens.

meh, collateral damage is a tool like anything else in comics. it should be used as it is used in a comic, imo--that is to say--if the writer focuses on it, then we should take it into consideration (namor v thing in avx, red hulk v colossus are simple examples) but when it is not made an issue, or is flat out omitted or ignored, i don't think it can be held against the characters. people aren't killed, buildings aren't toppled, etc....for the same reason a character's clothing isn't singed or disintegrated. the medium requires a VARYING degree of suspension of disbelief. i don't think we can paint each example with the same brush. that is something that is done too often in this forum. imo.

I was watching the Avengers again the other day and the part where Tony is trying to work on the helicarrier's engines, he let heavy pieces of metal fall to the ground which would have easily killed someone if the metal had hit them. I know not the same thing.

Originally posted by leonidas
meh, collateral damage is a tool like anything else in comics. it should be used as it is used in a comic, imo--that is to say--if the writer focuses on it, then we should take it into consideration (namor v thing in avx, red hulk v colossus are simple examples) but when it is not made an issue, or is flat out omitted or ignored, i don't think it can be held against the characters. people aren't killed, buildings aren't toppled, etc....for the same reason a character's clothing isn't singed or disintegrated. the medium requires a VARYING degree of suspension of disbelief. i don't think we can paint each example with the same brush. that is something that is done too often in this forum. imo. Exactly.

Kind of like how Dragonball Z focuses a lot on collateral damage.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Exactly.

Kind of like how Dragonball Z focuses a lot on collateral damage.

Everything suddenly becomes clearer now....

Originally posted by -Pr-
Collateral damage, when we see it, is obviously a pretty definitive showing of power.

Not seeing it, though, doesn't mean that the characters are somehow lacking in power; it's a part of the medium that you can't show as much collateral damage as powers imply. Otherwise everytime Superman or Hulk dukes it out with someone, the shockwaves from their punches alone (even with shock absorption taken in to account) would likely kill anyone close by.

Power level will always, imo, take precedence when shown through peer-to-peer interactions, fights, and of course feats.

Absence of collateral damage is never an indication of power, however, the presence of collateral damage is.

we all agree that monarch's explosion was weaksauce, though

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Exactly.

Kind of like how Dragonball Z focuses a lot on collateral damage.

And even that varies. While the Freiza Saga had a ton, later Sagas where there's more powerful fighters and more planet-busting attacks actually had less.




Exactly!

Damage may be ignored due to characters being able to focus it or simply genre convention, but when it does occur, it's because something caused it.

Originally posted by Q99
but when it does occur, it's because something caused it. http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/psychogundam1/gifs/sho1.gif

Another veiled troll thread by Carter. Why am I not surprised.

Originally posted by carver9
Always wondered about this. How important is collateral damage when its concerning a fight? Example...let's say if someone toppled a Celestial with a punch and damaged him would that punch be greater than what WBH did in the dark dimension? Which is important, collateral damage or power level (damaging something of significant power above yours)? They are both important. But collateral damage shows the minimum force and not the maximum force.


For example, if a character achieves 100tons of collateral force then we know that actual punch was greater.

But if the collateral force is 1 ton then that doesn't mean the real punch was near 1 ton. It still can be a lot more.

ODG said it best
The absence of collateral damage doesn't mean the absence of power
The presence of collateral damage IS the presence of power

In the former, it's just hard to prove the minimum force


Originally posted by Endless Mike
Another veiled troll thread by Carter. Why am I not surprised. This is a good thread because it can straighten some feats out and how should we gauge a character's power by the feat.

Power levels hold more weight. Sure destroying a universe is fine and dandy, but once you get to the point where you destroy concepts themselves, such as Death and Oblivion, which would you say is stronger? Destroying the universe doesn't mean anything since concepts would still be there.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Power levels hold more weight. Sure destroying a universe is fine and dandy, but once you get to the point where you destroy concepts themselves, such as Death and Oblivion, which would you say is stronger? Destroying the universe doesn't mean anything since concepts would still be there.

Exactly.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Power levels hold more weight. Sure destroying a universe is fine and dandy, but once you get to the point where you destroy concepts themselves, such as Death and Oblivion, which would you say is stronger? Destroying the universe doesn't mean anything since concepts would still be there. you're going to extremes

Well, here's something smaller. A guy who has shown to destroy a building with 1 punch gets beaten by a guy who has never shown any destruction feats on that level. But that doesn't mean the guy can't destroy a building.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Destroying the universe doesn't mean anything since concepts would still be there. ?????

It's good for showing that they can deal that much damage. I'm personally not that big a fan though.

Originally posted by Mindship
Good point...

...though now and then, I wouldn't mind seeing them metas helping out in-panel (perhaps they have -- I just missed it) to give creedence to what you said, which does make sense.

This is something I tried to bring up whenever Pak suddenly decided that "the hulk never killed anyone". He might not have killed anyone, but he's caused billions of dollars in damage during his rampages.

This isn't something you can really think of though, since it makes little sense to try and put that kind of real-life perspective on things in a comic-book setting. How are people still dying of hunger in the Marvel world? Why's Reed still hanging onto that cure for cancer they were gonna give Captain Marvel 20-30 years ago...

Originally posted by -Pr-
I've seen Flash, GL and Superman at the very least offer to help and at times actually help, but it does seem pretty rare to see it on panel. The only on panel time in marvel I can recall was when Nitro's mess got cleaned up that lead into the Civil War. And the 9-11 issue of Amazing Spider-Man but I don't count this.

marvel had a corporation called "damage control inc" that cleaned up those messes behind the scenes and it was owned by tony stark and wilson fisk. they went out of business however

Seems like I remember Molecule Man attacking Beyonder with a blast that was sufficient to destroy a billion dimensions(or some shit), and it didn't even damage Owen's apartment.

Point: we don't have to see collateral damage in order to gauge the power/potency of an attack. Sure it helps, but it certainly isn't required.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Collateral damage, when we see it, is obviously a pretty definitive showing of power.

Not seeing it, though, doesn't mean that the characters are somehow lacking in power;

I have something to add, too: even if collateral damage is present, it doesn't mean that you can compare how characters stack in terms of power based on that; as in, take a showing for when a character punches another one and windows shatter, then take a showing of another character where space/time breaks and say that he is more powerful, because his collateral damage was greater; varying on the writer, high heralds attacks can do nothing, can shatter windows, can produce earthquakes or go higher, and affect space/time or the whole planet. Doesn't mean you can cherry pick two, compare them, and that's it.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
marvel had a corporation called "damage control inc" that cleaned up those messes behind the scenes and it was owned by tony stark and wilson fisk. they went out of business however
They went out of business in a world of Hulk rampages and Spider-Man villains?

How corrupt/incompetent was their upper level management?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
They went out of business in a world of Hulk rampages and Spider-Man villains?

How corrupt/incompetent was their upper level management? it was cause of this:

Originally posted by Parmaniac
The only on panel time in marvel I can recall was when Nitro's mess got cleaned up that lead into the Civil War. And the 9-11 issue of Amazing Spider-Man but I don't count this.

it was a scheme where the latest head of the company made nitro amped so that they could fix the damage after he exploded. then they used salvaged supervillain tech to fight back when they were caught red handed

Originally posted by The Merchant
Well, here's something smaller. A guy who has shown to destroy a building with 1 punch gets beaten by a guy who has never shown any destruction feats on that level. But that doesn't mean the guy can't destroy a building.

I try to tell people this all the time and this is especially true in pure physical h2h confrontations. However, here at KMC, you're always gonna have a majority argue that since it wasn't shown on panel, said character can't do it.