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Distinguished as the best martial artists in the galaxys, the matukai made their own bodies the focus of their abilities, and were capable of using physical exercise and discipline as a form of meditation. Keeping their focus inward, Matukai philosophy differed from that of the jedi order in that the jedi saw physical exercise & meditation as separate; however, this inward focus allowed Matukai adherents such a degree of control over their bodies as to develop an otherwise negligible connection to the force into a far more significant source of strength


considered to be masters of their physical bodies, the matukai were capable of drawing on the force to strengthen and augment their bodies to unnatural limits. In doing this they could refresh their spirits with a tireless energy that allowed them to exert their bodies far past their unaided physical limits for hours at a time without tiring. Because of this stamina, Matukai were capable of executing physical feats such as tumbling, running, leaping, and complex martial sequences with a astonishing speed described as a "whirlwind" blur of limbs and movement, additionally, this refreshing of spirit augmented the strength and resolve of a matukai's blows, allowing them feats of strength and power far exceeding what their bodies were capable of.

In addition to this outward physical mastery, matukai were known for their inward mastery and self-awareness of their own bodies. and were able to discern wounds, injuries, and sickness with ease. The Matukai learned to purge illness and poison from their bodies, and even become immune to them altogether, to the point where a fully-trained matukai could shrug off the effects or a normally-fatal sting from a poisonous Kouhun. Trained matukai could also raise or lower their body's temperature to survive in hot or cold environments, or even cause their skin to become so hot as to burn anything that they touched. More experienced Matukai adepts could also give normally soft parts of their body unnatural rigidity to help drastically reduce the physical damage they took and would recieve.


The signature weapon of the matukai was a polearm weapon called the wan-shan, which was tipped on one end with a short-singled edged blade. Each wan-shan was unique and bore patterns etched into the blade to symbolize things important to its creator. Most wan-shans could be broken down into easily-stored pieces, and trained matukai users could whirl it around their bodies in combat, using themselfs as a central axis of rotation. Due to their own physical control, Matukai were capable of wielding the blade with a speed that sometimes astonished onlookers, which was described as a virtual whirlwind of metal and blades. As such, they were considered very powerful combatants with weapons in addition to hand-to-hand combat. Matukai saw the weapon as an external focus for the force, as well as a means of self-defense. The Matukai were agile to the point of being able to dodge or a sizable portion of incoming strikes or blaster shots aimed at them , and enjoyed greatly increased balance and stamina due to their connection to the force. The Matukai order were also known for their adaptability to any situation.

Is this keeping in with your opinion that the Zeison Sha are the most powerful group of light side force sensitives? And thus the Jedi are even weaker than the Matukai?

Or have you accepted that the Jedi are stronger than the Zeison Sha, and you're now merely floundering around for a new group to champion?

Originally posted by KylarWhite
Is this keeping in with your opinion that the Zeison Sha are the most powerful group of light side force sensitives? And thus the Jedi are even weaker than the Matukai?

Or have you accepted that the Jedi are stronger than the Zeison Sha, and you're now merely floundering around for a new group to champion? No im not floundering around for a new group to deem champions. The Zeison Sha Elite Warriors are the most powerful telekinetic force users since they are unparalleled in telekinetic force powers. The Matukai Master adepts are the most overpowering physical body. And the Jal Shey Mentors are the most intelligent beings in the universe. (It was even said that the Jal Shey Mentors are unparalleled in intellect)

The Matukai order are more powerful then the jedi physically and in mindset. The Zeison Sha are telekinetically superior to the Jedi order. And the Jal shey are the most intellectual minds in the universe, unlike the Jedi. And the Jedi are the most powerful spiritually compared to all other orders and seem to be the most balanced, but not the most powerful.

So you place them above the Zeison Sha and below Jedi? Personally I'd put them lower than the Zeison Sha, they are a smaller organization.

---
Seriously, it's hard to take you seriously when you just read something, see "Hey, they're really good in one area! That MUST mean they're more powerful than the ones who're more well-rounded and have a larger recruitment base!", and then object when everyone points out it is speculation.


No, focusing on one area does not make a group superior in mindset. It makes them focused, nothing more and nothing less.



No they didn't, we often see Jedi physically exercising while meditating.



You assume, but this isn't based on any statements or facts. Fact is, Jedi have the highest feats, and nothing says they neglect the physical side or non-spiritual areas. That's just you making stuff up.

Also, there's many areas of the force. The Jedi are better than the Zeison Sha physically and in precognition and in sword skills. The Jedi are better than the Matukai at telekinesis and precognition.

The Jedi are not weak in any of these areas and many Jedi focus heavily on telekinesis, martial arts, or what have you.



When are you going to realize you making something up doesn't qualify as real feats, and saying that it does is just lying? It's not close-minded to note something's made up.


You have your own personal interpretation of the Jedi and the force. It is not canon, and stop trying to pretend to everyone that it is. If you want to talk about the various other factions and how they compare, fine, but you can do so in a less obnoxious way.

Originally posted by Q99
So you place them above the Zeison Sha and below Jedi? Personally I'd put them lower than the Zeison Sha, they are a smaller organization.

---
Seriously, it's hard to take you seriously when you just read something, see "Hey, they're really good in one area! That MUST mean they're more powerful than the ones who're more well-rounded and have a larger recruitment base!", and then object when everyone points out it is speculation.


No, focusing on one area does not make a group superior in mindset. It makes them focused, nothing more and nothing less.



No they didn't, we often see Jedi physically exercising while meditating.



You assume, but this isn't based on any statements or facts. Fact is, Jedi have the highest feats, and nothing says they neglect the physical side or non-spiritual areas. That's just you making stuff up.

Also, there's many areas of the force. The Jedi are better than the Zeison Sha physically and in precognition and in sword skills. The Jedi are better than the Matukai at telekinesis and precognition.

The Jedi are not weak in any of these areas and many Jedi focus heavily on telekinesis, martial arts, or what have you.



When are you going to realize you making something up doesn't qualify as real feats, and saying that it does is just lying? It's not close-minded to note something's made up.


You have your own personal interpretation of the Jedi and the force. It is not canon, and stop trying to pretend to everyone that it is. If you want to talk about the various other factions and how they compare, fine, but you can do so in a less obnoxious way. I don't have a personal interpretation of anything, and why are you mentioning close-minded?

You misunderstand me once again. I NEVER said that the Matukai were more powerful then the Zeison Sha, The Zeison Sha are the most powerful order of lightside Force Sensitives, since their elite warriors can crush the bodys of the opposition within seconds after entering combat. The Matukai are stronger in the mindset of straying true to the lightside, keeping one's self pure. (There have been no matukai who fell to the dark side since its founding before 4,000 BBY. same thing can't be said about the jedi)

(Just because i put more detail into the Matukai order does not mean that i have changed what i have said, don't make another misconception before you attempt to understand something, you look too much with your eyes and not with your mind but i wouldn't expect anything less due to the fact that you and your way of thinking were brought up by the educational system's prognosticators)

The Matukai are the most powerful order physically and their abilities are living proof of that. The jedi are not the most powerful all around, the jedi wanted to understand and use the force on a spiritual level using the force as a ally, not attempting to bend the force to their will (such as what the Sith philosophy is about) The jedi order is a balanced spiritual order, and the many refferences made by jedi masters is prove of that such as, (Trust in the force it will lead you to great things)

The jedi are a single piece of the force capabilities puzzle. The Matukai are the physical piece. The Zeison Sha are the telekinetic piece. The Jedi are the spiritual piece. And the Jal Shey are the intellectual piece.

The jedi are not the most powerful all around and there's nothing you can say or do to change that fact even though you've read the Star Wars comic books that are heavily focused on jedi notables, for as long as you can remember. The Jedi order are the most balanced due to the multitude of areas they teach in, but at the same time they are flawed and unbalanced due to the fact that they say the path to the dark side only leads to destruction, which in many cases that turns out to be a contradiction. For one to achieve true balance, one must know both the Light and the Dark, not just the light and not the Dark, and vise versa. If you really want to say who are the best balance of an order that would be the Gray Je,daii.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
No im not floundering around for a new group to deem champions. The Zeison Sha Elite Warriors are the most powerful telekinetic force users since they are unparalleled in telekinetic force powers. The Matukai Master adepts are the most overpowering physical body. And the Jal Shey Mentors are the most intelligent beings in the universe. (It was even said that the Jal Shey Mentors are unparalleled in intellect)

The Matukai order are more powerful then the jedi physically and in mindset. The Zeison Sha are telekinetically superior to the Jedi order. And the Jal shey are the most intellectual minds in the universe, unlike the Jedi. And the Jedi are the most powerful spiritually compared to all other orders and seem to be the most balanced, but not the most powerful.

But you don't get it. For the Matukai and the Zeison Sha to be considered more powerful force organisations than the Jedi, they have to show at least a high profiency in abilities other than their specialties, their physical or telekinesis abilities respectively.

By the way, what evidence do you have of their abilities? You can't just spout random aspects of the Matukai and expect us to take your words as the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Originally posted by KylarWhite
But you don't get it. For the Matukai and the Zeison Sha to be considered more powerful force organisations than the Jedi, they have to show at least a high profiency in abilities other than their specialties, their physical or telekinesis abilities respectively.

By the way, what evidence do you have of their abilities? You can't just spout random aspects of the Matukai and expect us to take your words as the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. From "your" perspective maybe, TO YOU they aren't more powerful then the jedi because you haven't paid any attention to them nor saw them commonly in the Star Wars flims and the books. Everything of what i have said has been mentioned in (Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential guide to the Force) (The Jedi Academy Training Manual) (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia) and (The Jedi Path A Manual for Students of the Force) provided with the fact that the full explaination conserning the Matukai is on Wookieepedia.


The Matukai's Philosophy & physical abilities deems them more powerful then the Jedi due to 2 of 4 reasons. Reason number 1 is a Matukai adept can never run out of stamina nor strength during or out of combat, Infact a Matukai adept continually increases in Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and Spiritual Power without limit using their unique technique known as Refreshing of the Spirit, Also Matukai adepts cannot be affect by any poisions of all kinds even of they are fatal or of the most deadly manufactured. Reason Number 2 is the Matukai's adept's fighting skills have been described as a virtual whirlwind of metal and blades (meaning that their physical attacks were too fast for the eye to focus and keep track of while their strength being just as efficient as their speed) and since whirlwind is short for miniature tornado, that means that anyone fighting a Matukai Adept in close quaters combat will be torn to shreds since thats what a whirlwind does.

the Matukai adepts would be close to physical invincibility if they decided to use Lightsabers rather then the Wan-Shan. A virtual whirlwind of Lightsabers would be a more efficient way of establishing victory, rather then a whirlwind of metal and blades from the polearm weapon (Wan-Shan)

You'd guys do well of ignoring this guy.

Originally posted by GenomeFrozener
You'd guys do well of ignoring this guy. They already are ignoring me, they haven't read the first post which is living proof of their physical abilities taken straight from wookieepedia and other sources, and yet they are asking me to provide evidence of their abilities even though the proof of their physical abilities has already been provided.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
They already are ignoring me, they haven't read the first post which is living proof of their physical abilities taken straight from wookieepedia and other sources, and yet they are asking me to provide evidence of their abilities even though the proof of their physical abilities has already been provided.

You only provide small pieces, and even then it's not actual solid evidence. You call those who don't 'listen' closet minded when you actually do the same yourself.

Originally posted by GenomeFrozener
You only provide small pieces, and even then it's not actual solid evidence. You call those who don't 'listen' closet minded when you actually do the same yourself. It is solid evidence but all of you choose it not to be, due to the fact that i mentioned the group stated being the most powerful in that area. Another thing is i haven't used the words Close-minded since the beginning of the Zeison Sha thread which was the Fall of 2012 on December the 17th, you guys are telling on yourselfs by stating that i have repeatedly called people close-minded when that turn out to be false, it was only 3 times. But according to this reply of yours the things i have previously said about you and everyone else being close-minded and biased is turning out to be true.

Q99 is close-minded & biased conserning the Jedi and he/she proved that to be a fact when he/she stated that, the Jedi use physical exercise & discipline as a form of meditation Maybe Q99 misunderstood my sentence
(I didn't say the jedi never exercise and meditate, i said that the Jedi have NEVER used PHYSICAL EXERCISE & DISCIPLINE as a form of meditation but visa versa.

(The Matukai use that method since it was a conerstone in the Matukai philosophy being balanced between the physical and the spiritual and used physical exercise and discipline as a form of meditation. The jedi order have neve done this and Wookieepedia proved that to be a fact)
But Q99 easily turned that into a misconception due to the fact that She/He only reads the parts he/she dosen't like and reply to accordingly, not attempting to understand something if it contradicts what he/she believed to be true, to Q99 and as well as YOU your Eyes are the ONLY etched-in-stone evidence.

PUNCTUATION. USE PUNCTUATION.

Sorry, you making stuff up or misinterpreting/exaggerating stuff from wookkiepedia is never going to be strong evidence.

Even if we bought it, which we don't have a reason to do, it still wouldn't be strong evidence, that'd just make us wrong too.

You're just stuck on your ideas and reject disagreement.


Remember the time in the Claymore thread when you were so sure the series had gone horrible because a character had been reincarnated as a child, and it turned out that it was just a flashback to when the character was a child, yet you had to be told about half a dozen times that it wasn't true before you stopped arguing? Even though everyone else in the thread had read the series and knew exactly what was and wasn't in the series, you didn't pay any attention to what other people were saying or knew, you were just *sure* you were right, and you weren't.

Same thing.

Oh yes, and the biggest flaw in your arguments: You keep assuming the Jedi and Sith neglect the physical side and are overly-specialized on the spiritual.

The Baran Do and Sorcerers of Tund are examples of that. It looks a heck of a lot different than the Jedi/Sith's often heavy physical-centric and much more balanced approach.

Originally posted by Q99
Sorry, you making stuff up or misinterpreting/exaggerating stuff from wookkiepedia is never going to be strong evidence.

Even if we bought it, which we don't have a reason to do, it still wouldn't be strong evidence, that'd just make us wrong too.

You're just stuck on your ideas and reject disagreement.


Remember the time in the Claymore thread when you were so sure the series had gone horrible because a character had been reincarnated as a child, and it turned out that it was just a flashback to when the character was a child, yet you had to be told about half a dozen times that it wasn't true before you stopped arguing? Even though everyone else in the thread had read the series and knew exactly what was and wasn't in the series, you didn't pay any attention to what other people were saying or knew, you were just *sure* you were right, and you weren't.

Same thing. First im going to destroy your arguement conserning the Claymore thread and this Matukai thread. I purposely posted the thing about Teresa being reincarnated through a different form to see the 1st person that will blindly choose to disagree and to see which people held a dislike against me, since it regards that im the one that was saying it, and with no surprise Q99 was the first to disagree without question, since you have what seems to be a rivalry against me for some odd reason, you fell right into the trap and now i know with a certainty that you are the one of the people who will disagree with me in any given subject that does not support your opinion.


And Conserning the Jedi (Dark & Light) being Spiritual orders this is a fact, and it was proven when Nomi Sunrider stripped Ulic Qel-Droma of his connection to the force, afterwards he could not use any of the seemingly telekinetic capabilities that most jedi Dark & Light were capable of, such as lifting up objects and throwing them without physically making contact, nor could he use any of the Dark side's techniques such as Lightning, draining, or crushing someone with power alone, why? because his connection to the force was cut which was his connection to his spirit. (The FORCE is a spiritual connection to something that can be seen and used as something much greater or much more dangerous)

1 last thing that proves the jedi do not use nor specialize in other areas besides the spirit, is none other then Meetra Surik. When Meetra Surik cut herself from the force, she could not lift up, push, or pull objects with telekinesis untill her connection to the force was re-established. Because the jedi do not use telekinesis but rather they use the Force for such things which they channeled through the spirit not through the Mind. Nor do the Jedi use the force to channel one's own body, such as what the Matukai order are the most proficient & powerful at. Wookieepedia is solid evidence since they both explain and take you to the refferences that prove what the Matukai are capable of, which also indirectly states that the Matukai are the most powerful in the physical area. Balanced in the Spiritual and perfect in the Mindset of staying true to the Light Side.

But since you won't look for the answers yourself by viewing the refferences & sources on wookieepedia that reveals their physical dominance compared to all other orders, that proves that you don't want the evidence nor answers, nor will i waste my time giving them.

Case closed and since you have disagreements about this being said, keep them to yourself since they are biased not factual

Originally posted by Q99
Oh yes, and the biggest flaw in your arguments: You keep assuming the Jedi and Sith neglect the physical side and are overly-specialized on the spiritual.

The Baran Do and Sorcerers of Tund are examples of that. It looks a heck of a lot different than the Jedi/Sith's often heavy physical-centric and much more balanced approach. Did you randomly put 2 orders that sounded something of interest and seemed balanced? because the Baran Do were the most proficient at using the force to see the future, and the things that could be done to avoid the bad outcomes it may have, which is why the Baran Do served as Sages and respected advisors, (Not Soldiers Nor powerful combatants) they also trained in telekinesis which lead to some of their members beng powerful in it, but they were carted off by the Jedi order. Also Baran Do trained in using martial arts and the basic staff, which they were most weakest in, not of a balance.

The Baran Do's strong-points were using the force to amplify one's senses, and using the force for telekinesis, their weakness is physical skills and the body.

The Sorcerers of Tund were nothing more then Sorcerers that specialized in using Dark Side illusions, not even close to achieving a balance between the body, mind, and spirit. Don't start linking and ranting on about orders you don't even know about.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
The Baran Do's strong-points were using the force to amplify one's senses, and using the force for telekinesis, their weakness is physical skills and the body.


Isn't that what we've pointed out about both the Zeison Sha and the Matukai though? They have their strengths, sure, but what prevents them from being at the top of the list is that they're specialists, pure and simple. You can't make excuses for one organisation, and then completely disregard us when we employ the same argument against the organisations that you champion. It's just hypocritical.

Despite what you claim, Jedi don't just focus on the spiritual side. Many dedicate themselves to lightsaber duelling, diplomacy, etc. They're not an order you can place seamlessly into one particular aspect of the force.

Originally posted by KylarWhite
Isn't that what we've pointed out about both the Zeison Sha and the Matukai though? They have their strengths, sure, but what prevents them from being at the top of the list is that they're specialists, pure and simple. You can't make excuses for one organisation, and then completely disregard us when we employ the same argument against the organisations that you champion. It's just hypocritical.

Despite what you claim, Jedi don't just focus on the spiritual side. Many dedicate themselves to lightsaber duelling, diplomacy, etc. They're not an order you can place seamlessly into one particular aspect of the force.

Exactly. Several of the other orders are specialists, but the Jedi are firmly in the middle, with no particular weaknesses or specializations.

Some individuals may specialize- Mace Windu is as physical as any member of any order- but as a whole they're diverse.

Originally posted by KylarWhite
Isn't that what we've pointed out about both the Zeison Sha and the Matukai though? They have their strengths, sure, but what prevents them from being at the top of the list is that they're specialists, pure and simple. You can't make excuses for one organisation, and then completely disregard us when we employ the same argument against the organisations that you champion. It's just hypocritical.

Despite what you claim, Jedi don't just focus on the spiritual side. Many dedicate themselves to lightsaber duelling, diplomacy, etc. They're not an order you can place seamlessly into one particular aspect of the force. Its not hypocritical, don't misunderstand when you see the words (Strong-points)

The Barran Do aren't specialist at what they do but rather proficient to a certin degree. The Matukai are the most powerful at using the force to channel the body, and them being known for never running out of stamina while gaining continual physical Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and spiritual power without limit are proof of that, provided that they were known as combat whirlwinds & typhoons.

Basically the Matukai adepts broke the physical & spiritual capabilities limit that their bodies originally had and wookieepedia proves that.

The Zeison Sha's Elite Warriors were unparalelled in Telekinesis and other Telekinetic force Powers, to the point to where they stood as prime examples to the already unmatched masters of telekinetics the lower ranked Zeison Sha Warriors. Zeison Sha Elite Warriors can crush someone's body within seconds either using their mind, or using the power of the force. The Zeison Sha order have many more feats & proficiencies but i have already described them so repeating them would be a waste of time. The Zeison Sha are the Most Powerful Light Side Force Organization.

And as for what you say about the Jedi not Neglecting the physical side, im not about to explain why again on this thread, go to the Matukai thread i have posted, the new reply i have posted there explains why the jedi have grown weak physically without me wasting the time repeating the same thing.

Originally posted by Q99
Exactly. Several of the other orders are specialists, but the Jedi are firmly in the middle, with no particular weaknesses or specializations.

Some individuals may specialize- Mace Windu is as physical as any member of any order- but as a whole they're diverse. Another thing i forgot to mention was. I looked at the Zeison Sha article, Matukai article, and Marka Ragnos article from time-to-time for 3 years nothing tampered with during that time, but when i posted subjects conserning those names being the most powerful in specific areas on this site, thats when the changes in the article's literature began to show, and by you being the first to disagree and attempt to contradict it with whatever evidence you may have had, whether it was biased or factual, provided that you previously admitted that your original idea was to change my mind by bringing about whatever notables & refferences possible. YOU EDITED the Zeison Sha article and Marka Ragnos article.

This is the Matukai thread.

Also, you have said that they neglected it, but no sources, and people have provided evidence that you're wrong, giving demonstrations of Jedi who are very much not lacking in training in that area, like Mace Windu.

So, you're wrong. The Jedi aren't physically weak, many are physically focused.

You're just asking us to assume a weakness on their part based on nothing.


Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Another thing i forgot to mention was. I looked at the Zeison Sha article, Matukai article, and Marka Ragnos article from time-to-time for 3 years nothing tampered with during that time, but when i posted subjects conserning those names being the most powerful in specific areas on this site, thats when the changes in the article's literature began to show, and by you being the first to disagree and attempt to contradict it with whatever evidence you may have had, whether it was biased or factual, provided that you previously admitted that your original idea was to change my mind by bringing about whatever notables & refferences possible. YOU EDITED the Zeison Sha article and Marka Ragnos article.

Ok, so you're saying I edited the Zeison Sha, Marka Ragnos, and Matukai articles?

Let me introduce you to the glory of Edit Logs!

Marka Ragnos's edit logs

Matukai edit logs

Zeison Sha edit logs


Oh hey, what's that? There are *zero names* in common between editors of any of the three editors, no-one who edited one of them edited either of the others.

And what else is this? The Zeison Sha and Matukai and Marka Ragnos have *no major edits* since well before the beginning of these two threads! Only minor tag-edits and typo fixes that change nothing in terms of actual content on what they can or can't do! Nothing that deleted the info that you said should be there!




Unless you're accusing me of editing either reality or your brain, it's entirely clear that you made up the edits because you didn't want to admit you're wrong.

And having demonstrated those edits don't exist, that rather concretely demonstrates you're wrong, because you were relying on edited-away information to prove your point, and it's simply not there.

Originally posted by Q99
This is the Matukai thread.

Also, you have said that they neglected it, but no sources, and people have provided evidence that you're wrong, giving demonstrations of Jedi who are very much not lacking in training in that area, like Mace Windu.

So, you're wrong. The Jedi aren't physically weak, many are physically focused.

You're just asking us to assume a weakness on their part based on nothing.




Ok, so you're saying I edited the Zeison Sha, Marka Ragnos, and Matukai articles?

Let me introduce you to the glory of Edit Logs!

Marka Ragnos's edit logs

Matukai edit logs

Zeison Sha edit logs


Oh hey, what's that? There are *zero names* in common between editors of any of the three editors, no-one who edited one of them edited either of the others.

And what else is this? The Zeison Sha and Matukai and Marka Ragnos have *no major edits* since well before the beginning of these two threads! Only minor tag-edits and typo fixes that change nothing in terms of actual content on what they can or can't do! Nothing that deleted the info that you said should be there!




Unless you're accusing me of editing either reality or your brain, it's entirely clear that you made up the edits because you didn't want to admit you're wrong.

And having demonstrated those edits don't exist, that rather concretely demonstrates you're wrong, because you were relying on edited-away information to prove your point, and it's simply not there. And what do the logs prove when your KMC account is different from your pedia accounts, and i got this thread and the Zeison Sha thread, either way my post explaining the Jedi's physical weaknesses are on the Zeison Sha thread not this one, misconception on my part.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
The Matukai are the most powerful at using the force to channel the body, and them being known for never running out of stamina while gaining continual physical Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and spiritual power without limit are proof of that, provided that they were known as combat whirlwinds & typhoons.

Basically the Matukai adepts broke the physical & spiritual capabilities limit that their bodies originally had and wookieepedia proves that.

The Zeison Sha's Elite Warriors were unparalelled in Telekinesis and other Telekinetic force Powers, to the point to where they stood as prime examples to the already unmatched masters of telekinetics the lower ranked Zeison Sha Warriors. Zeison Sha Elite Warriors can crush someone's body within seconds either using their mind, or using the power of the force. The Zeison Sha order have many more feats & proficiencies but i have already described them so repeating them would be a waste of time. The Zeison Sha are the Most Powerful Light Side Force Organization.

Your fanboyism for these groups is cute and all, but you provide no real evidence. On the Zeison Sha thread, Q99 has stated that he has gone through all the sources you have mentioned and more, and found nothing to support your arguments. He has further refuted any claims you have made regarding edits to Wookiepedia, as he has examined the edits made to it, and has even showed you them. It's not his fault that you ignore it. You have nothing to back up your claims. You can't just take a simple claim regarding something, and use it to make wild proclamations. Sure, some parts will allow you to infer things from the text, but you take it to such a level that it is ridiculous.

For example, you take that the Matukai were known as "combat whirlwinds" (never even bothering to provide the source for the statement), and use it to claim that they are therefore faster and better than the Jedi and Sith in combat, never mind that "whirlwind" or words similar are very much a common way to describe a Jedi or Sith's movements in combat, and are indeed an abstract way of describing their movements.

And now all of a sudden you say they have broken the limit of their bodies' spiritual capabilities, without any presentation of evidence. Even you have said they focus on the physical aspects of the force, not the spiritual. Making a claim like that is just nonsensical.

It's seen further when you say Zeison Sha elite warriors can crush a body within seconds. Nowhere has anyone seen any proof of that, and asserting such a claim is ridiculous. There are next to no feats to their name. Without them, you cannot definitively claim the Zeison Sha are the most power light side force organisation, nor can you in the future until such feats are presented.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
And what do the logs prove when your KMC account is different from your pedia accounts, and i got this thread and the Zeison Sha thread, either way my post explaining the Jedi's physical weaknesses are on the Zeison Sha thread not this one, misconception on my part.

The logs prove no-one made the edits you claim. No-one edited the articles to remove the info you say, no-one edited all three articles, no information on their powers has been altered in the last two years. The alterations you accuse me of don't exist period, by anyone's hand.


And you made the claim about the Jedi's physical weakness, but you have not proven it, it is just a claim, and it is in fact directly contradicted by the Matukai article which even mentions the Jedi develop physical skills, just in a more separate manner than the Matukai.

Originally posted by KylarWhite
Your fanboyism for these groups is cute and all, but you provide no real evidence. On the Zeison Sha thread, Q99 has stated that he has gone through all the sources you have mentioned and more, and found nothing to support your arguments. He has further refuted any claims you have made regarding edits to Wookiepedia, as he has examined the edits made to it, and has even showed you them. It's not his fault that you ignore it. You have nothing to back up your claims. You can't just take a simple claim regarding something, and use it to make wild proclamations. Sure, some parts will allow you to infer things from the text, but you take it to such a level that it is ridiculous.

For example, you take that the Matukai were known as "combat whirlwinds" (never even bothering to provide the source for the statement), and use it to claim that they are therefore faster and better than the Jedi and Sith in combat, never mind that "whirlwind" or words similar are very much a common way to describe a Jedi or Sith's movements in combat, and are indeed an abstract way of describing their movements.

And now all of a sudden you say they have broken the limit of their bodies' spiritual capabilities, without any presentation of evidence. Even you have said they focus on the physical aspects of the force, not the spiritual. Making a claim like that is just nonsensical.

It's seen further when you say Zeison Sha elite warriors can crush a body within seconds. Nowhere has anyone seen any proof of that, and asserting such a claim is ridiculous. There are next to no feats to their name. Without them, you cannot definitively claim the Zeison Sha are the most power light side force organisation, nor can you in the future until such feats are presented. You say i don't provide real evidence? foolish statement. The Jedi have NEVER been known as combat whirlwinds & typhoons, all of the greatest notable jedi that have been seen does not fit the description of a whirlwind, that would include, Revan, NomiSunrider, ArcaJeth, SateleShan, MeetraSurik, General Hoth, and Yoda. None of them reached a speed that indentified them as a minature tornado, (whirlwind) only the Matukai adepts reached that speed & strength provided they amazed onlookers with that same speed during their exhibitions.

And yes they have exceeded in physical Strength & Power going past what their bodies were capable of originally, go to wookieepedia and read their abilities thats "proof" enough.


Yeah Q99 ran through all the sources and didn't find the direct statement he was looking for which was, (The Zeison Sha are The Most Powerful Order of Light Side Force Sensitives) No Star Wars source is or will ever say that literally but rather metaphorically, i don't know why all of you haven't learned this yet. But conserning everything else of the Zeison Sha's Telekinetic abilities, thats been proven already. The Zeison Sha's unmatched telekinetic skills & Survival skills have proven them the most Powerful Light Side Order. (METAPHORICALLY)


And as for the edits made on wookieepedia, lets clear this up. I never said that Q99 edited a major part of the Zeison Sha article, but rather just 2 words, the words (Telekinetic abilities) were changed to (Telekinesis) for a short time and later the changes were removed, but the fact is that the change did not occur untill i came on this site, SOMEONE here on this site that disagreed edited that article, and Q99 is listed as a suspect due to his questionable ideals & contradictions.



Its getting boring going back-and-forth with people that didn't know about both the Matukai & Zeison Sha, you guys already have the evidence conserning both of the orders abilities but choose not to believe it, but rather you all say you want evidence even though thats already been revealed .

Originally posted by Q99
The logs prove no-one made the edits you claim. No-one edited the articles to remove the info you say, no-one edited all three articles, no information on their powers has been altered in the last two years. The alterations you accuse me of don't exist period, by anyone's hand.


And you made the claim about the Jedi's physical weakness, but you have not proven it, it is just a claim, and it is in fact directly contradicted by the Matukai article which even mentions the Jedi develop physical skills, just in a more separate manner than the Matukai. You still don't get it Q99. A lightsaber is not a measure of physical Strength since its a weapon that cuts through most known alloys, blast doors, armor, surfaces, and people with minimum effort. But rather the Lightsaber relies mainly on PRECISION & EXECUTION, while the Matukai's Wan-Shan relies on Physical Strength & Maneuverability. The Jedi order have weaken on the physical side ever since they stopped using traditional swords back during the time they were known as the Je,daii order.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
You say i don't provide real evidence? foolish statement. The Jedi have NEVER been known as combat whirlwinds & typhoons, all of the greatest notable jedi that have been seen does not fit the description of a whirlwind, that would include, Revan, NomiSunrider, ArcaJeth, SateleShan, MeetraSurik, General Hoth, and Yoda. None of them reached a speed that indentified them as a minature tornado, (whirlwind) only the Matukai adepts reached that speed & strength provided they amazed onlookers with that same speed during their exhibitions. That's because you can see a, "whirlwind" or a, "typhoon"

The Jedi of the tier you described are most commonly referred to as blurs, if they were even visible.

I wasn't looking for that statement, actually. I was looking for your specific claims, which were lacking and not supported in the text.

The idea that the Zeison Sha took no casualties during the Imperial occupation, for example. Or that the Zeison Sha are even implied to be the strongest. Or that their telekinesis makes them immune to most attacks. Or that their force barrier is different from the Jedi force barrier power.

They aren't there.

You made them up.


You have been caught in making them up.







Way to back peddle. And no they weren't. The edit logs would indicate such a change, and they don't.

There were no edits involving the word telekinesis in the last 2 years.


You are lying and have been caught in your lies. No-one has to do any edits to disagree with you, because the article never agreed with you, and you're accusing others of lying to try and cover your butt, and it's very dishonest of you.



Also, just a reminder, I have the original book which the article is drawing the information from, and posted direct quotes from it. The book can't be edited.



Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
You still don't get it Q99. A lightsaber is not a measure of physical Strength since its a weapon that cuts through most known alloys, blast doors, armor, surfaces, and people with minimum effort. But rather the Lightsaber relies mainly on PRECISION & EXECUTION, while the Matukai's Wan-Shan relies on Physical Strength & Maneuverability. The Jedi order have weaken on the physical side ever since they stopped using traditional swords back during the time they were known as the Je,daii order.

Except I'm not just talking lightsaber.

I'm talking hand to hand feats, which I've specifically pointed out, such as Mace Windu demolishing metal droids with punches and Luminara beating a Wampa with her bare hands. I'm talking superhuman jumps and speed and enhanced strength (which, btw, lightsaber vs lightsaber combat *does* use, when two fighters lock blades they often use strength against each other, and who the physically stronger fighter is matters). I'm talking about the Matukai article specifically noting Jedi do physical training.


You don't get it, the sources do not agree with your interpretation.

Originally posted by Pwned
That's because you can see a, "whirlwind" or a, "typhoon"

The Jedi of the tier you described are most commonly referred to as blurs, if they were even visible. No, The Matukai adepts have been looked at as virtual "whirlwhinds" of limbs and movements, and they have been known as "whirlwinds" of metal and blades when using their weapons. And as for Matukai being known as combat typhoons, (Mendor Typhoons) is proof of that, he earned his named due to his prowess. (Similar to the Gand warrior tradition of naming individuals, becoming notables after being known for achievements, Ossluk Noslee is one example of the Gand)

Originally posted by Q99
I wasn't looking for that statement, actually. I was looking for your specific claims, which were lacking and not supported in the text.

The idea that the Zeison Sha took no casualties during the Imperial occupation, for example. Or that the Zeison Sha are even implied to be the strongest. Or that their telekinesis makes them immune to most attacks. Or that their force barrier is different from the Jedi force barrier power.

They aren't there.

You made them up.


You have been caught in making them up.







Way to back peddle. And no they weren't. The edit logs would indicate such a change, and they don't.

There were no edits involving the word telekinesis in the last 2 years.


You are lying and have been caught in your lies. No-one has to do any edits to disagree with you, because the article never agreed with you, and you're accusing others of lying to try and cover your butt, and it's very dishonest of you.



Also, just a reminder, I have the original book which the article is drawing the information from, and posted direct quotes from it. The book can't be edited.





Except I'm not just talking lightsaber.

I'm talking hand to hand feats, which I've specifically pointed out, such as Mace Windu demolishing metal droids with punches and Luminara beating a Wampa with her bare hands. I'm talking superhuman jumps and speed and enhanced strength (which, btw, lightsaber vs lightsaber combat *does* use, when two fighters lock blades they often use strength against each other, and who the physically stronger fighter is matters). I'm talking about the Matukai article specifically noting Jedi do physical training.


You don't get it, the sources do not agree with your interpretation. Self willingly ignorant. There is proof that the Zeison Sha's telekinetic shields are different from the Jedi's force barriers.

(The Jedi's force barriers have been seen as a jedi halting his offense to manage the barrier, defending against a certin amount of attacks before the barrier breaks due to energy depletion)

(The Zeison Sha's telekinetic shields have been described as using the force to wrap around one's body) and when the force completely wraps around one's body that means that the shield surrounds the entire outer surface of the body, not leaving any openings in defense to exploit, which is why Bodo Baas said the Zeison Sha leaned in for attack more then defense.

(There is no point leaning in for defense as much as offense in a Zeison Sha's case since their defense is wrapped around them for when they enter combat)

Its a fact that the Zeison Sha never suffered any casualties during the great jedi perge, their Telekinetic shields & Survival skills are proof of that. If the Zeison Sha suffered as much damage as the Jedi & Matukai orders during the perge like you think, then they wouldn't be known for their survival skills, but rather no different from the jedi order since the jedi lose 70% of their order at minimum, and 90% of their order at maximum 80% of the times after their wars are over. The Zeison Sha are known for their Survival skills & unmatched telekinetic prowess, which is why they endured the force orders perge and the jedi didn't.


No one has been caught in any lies but rather you want me to due to the fact that i revealed your hypocrisy in 5 messages previously posted, and the fact that the jedi order you are such a fanatic of are not the most powerful in all areas, but rather most balanced. It dosen't matter what you posted conserning the edits made on wookieepedia, (edit logs can be tampered with) the edit didn't occur untill i came on this site, thats a fact you cannot change.

And yes Jedi masters can destroy battle droids with their hands, but not due to their physical strength, but the fact that they use the force as a weapon (imbued fist) and as a blade (imbued lightsabers). The Matukai have used the force to harden & augment their bodies to unnatural limits exceeding what their bodies were capable of in Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and power originally.

Still don't get it yet ?

No one gets you. Your lawJick is far too l33t and superior for we peons to understand.

(The Jedi's force barriers have been seen as a jedi halting his offense to manage the barrier, defending against a certin amount of attacks before the barrier breaks due to energy depletion)

(The Zeison Sha's telekinetic shields have been described as using the force to wrap around one's body) and when the force completely wraps around one's body that means that the shield surrounds the entire outer surface of the body, not leaving any openings in defense to exploit, which is why Bodo Baas said the Zeison Sha leaned in for attack more then defense.

I recall how Luke in his early years walked through lava...

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Self willingly ignorant.

Again, looking at the actual sources.

You're going against the material.



Nope, nothing ever says that the Zeison Sha's force barrier cannot be depleted or takes any less effort. It says it wraps but that's it.

And guess what? Other force barriers wrap around the user completely too, and Jedi have attacked while using them, so that part isn't a unique attribute.

So you made stuff up. Making up lies about attributes to abilities that no sources mention is not proof.




Nope, zero things say that. Fiction. Made-up. Lies.




No, of course they didn't suffer as much.

They were on one little planet and didn't get the big Jedi-Hunters sent after them. It's also known they feared facing the Jedi hunters.

They however also didn't repel the imperial garrison, and it is specifically said they endured the presence, meaning it was a hardship to them.

Once again, your words are contradicted by the material.






Endured. Nothing says 'without casualties'. And way to ignore the main reason they endured.





Except your words don't fit the sources and mine do.



The reason you claim that the ZS were stronger was that the Jedi were lacking physically... and they aren't, it was something you made up despite being directly contradicted by the sources.

Heck, I never said the Jedi were strongest (that'd be The Ones). I just said there's no evidence the ZS are stronger. And there isn't.




You're just dishonestly trying to accuse others to cover your lies. I didn't edit it, you know I didn't edit it, and you know it never said anything about the ZS taking no casualties on the imperial occupation or their barrier being an unbreachable defense or any of the other stuff you claim to make them clearly superior.

Heck, even the edits you claim to have happened do not prove your points, there was never a version that said no casualties or your claims about the force barrier.


And again, I have the physical books. They're uneditable.


Wookiepedia's article is based on the books. Even if the article was changed, the books would still say whether your claims were present, and they aren't, you're lying.






Luminara specifically threw a large Wampa without using the force using her bare hands.

And the Matukai specifically use the force in their physical training, so I'm not entirely sure why you think Jedi using force physical powers is different either.




So in other words, what you accuse the Jedi of doing, using the force to enhance the limits of their bodies.


Also, the Matukai article specifically notes Jedi incorporate physical training.

Also, the ZS notably use physical strength less than Jedi. They use thrown weapons and TK, that's all.




I get what you're saying, I simply don't agree with it as there's multiple statements and feats that directly contradict your version of events and how you claim powers work.



You have your own version of how these force abilities work, why Jedi physical training doesn't 'count' but Matukai does even though the Matukai article calls them both physical training, why the ZS force barrier is supposed to be superior despite nothing saying it is, and so on, and you need to understand it is simply your interpretation, not proof.

These threads in a nutshell:

SWL- "The ZS and Matukai are the most powerful!"

Us- "Why?"

SWL- "Because they can do W and X!"

Us- "Ok, but Jedi can do W and X too."

SWL- "But their W and X means they can do Y and Z!"

Us- "We can find nothing that says they have those additional attributes and Jedi don't. Why do you say so?"

SWL- "Because (slight difference in description)."

Us- "Slight difference in description does not mention Y and Z at all."

SWL- "But (edits I can't prove exist) happened which changed (slight difference of description) to (different slight difference of description)!"

Us- "There's no evidence of that in the original sources, and that still doesn't say they can do X and Z anyway."

SWL- "You're just biased, and (unfounded accusations)! Also, the Jedi are also inferior at A."

Us- "Nothing says that."

SWL- "They can't do B!"

Us- "Here's them doing B."

SWL- "It's different than when (groups) do it, because of (slight difference in description)."

Us- "Slight difference in description doesn't describe that at all, and (reference from the book) actually says it's the same thing trained differently."

SWL- "You're biased! Also, (group) did M and N."

Us- " (Checks sources) Absolutely nothing says they did M and N."

SWL- "Biased! And they totally did, (description which means other things but not M and N) says this."

Us-"Description doesn't say so."

SWL- "Biased, and accusations of lies to cover own calls of bias!"

----

Also, let me point out something major that's never been pointed out in these threads before: Both the Zeison Sha and Matukai come from game books, as playable classes with listed abilities.

And neither are more powerful than Jedi or Sith classes, nor are their specializations something that cannot be duplicated with other Jedi or Sith classes. They can simply do those things easier because they're aimed that way, but they are not stronger than Jedi or Sith in game either.

Originally posted by Q99
Again, looking at the actual sources.

You're going against the material.



Nope, nothing ever says that the Zeison Sha's force barrier cannot be depleted or takes any less effort. It says it wraps but that's it.

And guess what? Other force barriers wrap around the user completely too, and Jedi have attacked while using them, so that part isn't a unique attribute.

So you made stuff up. Making up lies about attributes to abilities that no sources mention is not proof.




Nope, zero things say that. Fiction. Made-up. Lies.




No, of course they didn't suffer as much.

They were on one little planet and didn't get the big Jedi-Hunters sent after them. It's also known they feared facing the Jedi hunters.

They however also didn't repel the imperial garrison, and it is specifically said they endured the presence, meaning it was a hardship to them.

Once again, your words are contradicted by the material.






Endured. Nothing says 'without casualties'. And way to ignore the main reason they endured.





Except your words don't fit the sources and mine do.



The reason you claim that the ZS were stronger was that the Jedi were lacking physically... and they aren't, it was something you made up despite being directly contradicted by the sources.

Heck, I never said the Jedi were strongest (that'd be The Ones). I just said there's no evidence the ZS are stronger. And there isn't.




You're just dishonestly trying to accuse others to cover your lies. I didn't edit it, you know I didn't edit it, and you know it never said anything about the ZS taking no casualties on the imperial occupation or their barrier being an unbreachable defense or any of the other stuff you claim to make them clearly superior.

Heck, even the edits you claim to have happened do not prove your points, there was never a version that said no casualties or your claims about the force barrier.


And again, I have the physical books. They're uneditable.


Wookiepedia's article is based on the books. Even if the article was changed, the books would still say whether your claims were present, and they aren't, you're lying.






Luminara specifically threw a large Wampa without using the force using her bare hands.

And the Matukai specifically use the force in their physical training, so I'm not entirely sure why you think Jedi using force physical powers is different either.




So in other words, what you accuse the Jedi of doing, using the force to enhance the limits of their bodies.


Also, the Matukai article specifically notes Jedi incorporate physical training.

Also, the ZS notably use physical strength less than Jedi. They use thrown weapons and TK, that's all.




I get what you're saying, I simply don't agree with it as there's multiple statements and feats that directly contradict your version of events and how you claim powers work.



You have your own version of how these force abilities work, why Jedi physical training doesn't 'count' but Matukai does even though the Matukai article calls them both physical training, why the ZS force barrier is supposed to be superior despite nothing saying it is, and so on, and you need to understand it is simply your interpretation, not proof. And here's where you're wrong once again. It was specifically said that the Zeison Sha did NOT take kindly to the empire invading their planet and were actively resisting the imperial occupation. And once the word & action (resist) hits the sight of a stormtrooper they automaticly shoot the person that said and exemplified the actions of resistance, making him a example in the process.

Provided that it was also said that the Zeison Sha SURVIVED the empire's ATTEMPTS to stamp them out.

(In other words they survived the empire's attempts on their lives. The empire attempted to kill off members of the Zeison Sha and failed, due to their Survival skills and unmatched Telekinetic prowess)

And here's another thing, if you want to rant on your opinion about the Zeison Sha are not more powerful then the Jedi order, then go to (The Most Powerful Order Of Light Side Force Sensitives thread) not this thread conserning the subject of the Matukai order. Rant on your biased contradicting opinions twords the Matukai, not the Zeison Sha.

And here's what will end your arguement. (Q99 has said that the Jedi are a more powerful order in comparison to the Matukai in terms of physical Strength, Speed, Constitution) well if you believe that to be true, then here's what destroys that belief.

The Greatest and most powerful of jedi have been known as blurs in terms of speed, and brutes in terms of strength. The Matukai adepts at regular have been known as miniature tornados (whirlwinds) in terms of Speed, and in terms of physical strength, with or without their weapons.

A Jedi blur vs a Matukai minature tornado, who would win? a Matukai minature tornado will win, since the physical attirbutes of a Matukai whirlwind are superior in comparison to a Jedi blur.

It really dosen't matter if you have the physical books. Wookieepedia counts as the biggest virtual Data collection conserning the Star Wars universe, using the Refferences, Notes, and Sources to support the information.

Yes, it says they resisted. It says they endured.

Nothing says they took no casualties. Nor did they manage to kick the Empire off their planet, nor face the Emperor's stronger Jedi hunters, which they actively avoided, so it's not like they took on the best opponents either.



Yes, the order survived, meaning they didn't take enough casualties to wipe them out. Nothing says there were no casualties involved, they simply endured whatever casualties they did take.

The Jedi survived Revan's purge, even though they were reduced from thousands and thousands to hundreds. The Sith survived the Battle of Ruusan, even though they were literally reduced to a single living member. Saying the order survived says squat about their casualty count. Did they take a few casualties? Half casualties? Light? Heavy? We don't know, but we did know it was a matter of 'enduring'.


No mention of no casualties.


This is another example of:

SWL- "You're biased! Also, (group) did M and N."

Us- " (Checks sources) Absolutely nothing says they did M and N."

SWL- "Biased! And they totally did, (description which means other things but not M and N) says this."

Us-"Description doesn't say so."

That I mentioned in my 'this thread in a nutshell' post.



People have mentioned Jedi and Sith being described as whirlwinds before.

Also, 'whirlwind' and 'blur' is all non-specific terminology. Nothing says whirlwinds are faster.

Want to know the minimum speed needed to classify as a whirlwind tornado? Like, the weather phenomena?

40 miles per hour. 40. A spinning, officially-a-tornado can be that slow.

Even a tornado a category higher, an F-1 tornado, is a mere 73mph.

In comparison, a race car can move like a blur at 200mph+. Heck, a jet plane can move at a blur at mach speeds. Blur is not an upper limit.


You in your head decided whirlwind > blur, but neither actually gives any precise number about speed. It's purely something you decided.

This is just another example of:
WL- "Because they can do W and X!"

Us- "Ok, but Jedi can do W and X too."

SWL- "But their W and X means they can do Y and Z!"

Us- "We can find nothing that says they have those additional attributes and Jedi don't. Why do you say so?"

SWL- "Because (slight difference in description)."

Us- "Slight difference in description does not mention Y and Z at all."
-------


And, again, Jedi have been described as whirlwinds before.

Here's a source- "Rising Whirlwind: A duelist swings his lightsabers about his body, creating a brilliant whirlwind". A named Niman/Jar'Kai maneuver (at the bottom of the maneuvers section, right before Training Methods). It's something they do.

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, it says they resisted. It says they endured.

Nothing says they took no casualties. Nor did they manage to kick the Empire off their planet, nor face the Emperor's stronger Jedi hunters, which they actively avoided, so it's not like they took on the best opponents either.



Yes, the order survived, meaning they didn't take enough casualties to wipe them out. Nothing says there were no casualties involved, they simply endured whatever casualties they did take.

The Jedi survived Revan's purge, even though they were reduced from thousands and thousands to hundreds. The Sith survived the Battle of Ruusan, even though they were literally reduced to a single living member. Saying the order survived says squat about their casualty count. Did they take a few casualties? Half casualties? Light? Heavy? We don't know, but we did know it was a matter of 'enduring'.




No mention of no casualties.


This is another example of:

SWL- "You're biased! Also, (group) did M and N."

Us- " (Checks sources) Absolutely nothing says they did M and N."

SWL- "Biased! And they totally did, (description which means other things but not M and N) says this."

Us-"Description doesn't say so."

That I mentioned in my 'this thread in a nutshell' post.



People have mentioned Jedi and Sith being described as whirlwinds before.

Also, 'whirlwind' and 'blur' is all non-specific terminology. Nothing says whirlwinds are faster.

Want to know the minimum speed needed to classify as a whirlwind tornado? Like, the weather phenomena?

40 miles per hour. 40. A spinning, officially-a-tornado can be that slow.

Even a tornado a category higher, an F-1 tornado, is a mere 73mph.

In comparison, a race car can move like a blur at 200mph+. Heck, a jet plane can move at a blur at mach speeds. Blur is not an upper limit.


You in your head decided whirlwind > blur, but neither actually gives any precise number about speed. It's purely something you decided.

This is just another example of:
WL- "Because they can do W and X!"

Us- "Ok, but Jedi can do W and X too."

SWL- "But their W and X means they can do Y and Z!"

Us- "We can find nothing that says they have those additional attributes and Jedi don't. Why do you say so?"

SWL- "Because (slight difference in description)."

Us- "Slight difference in description does not mention Y and Z at all."
-------


And, again, Jedi have been described as whirlwinds before.

Here's a source- "Rising Whirlwind: A duelist swings his lightsabers about his body, creating a brilliant whirlwind". A named Niman/Jar'Kai maneuver (at the bottom of the maneuvers section, right before Training Methods). It's something they do. I looked at that already, it changes nothing, Typhoons beats jedi whirlwinds & blurs. there's a difference between a Matukai whirlwind, and the jedi's lightsaber manevering style. Matukai are known masters of the physical body, the jedi are known to imbue their bodies with the force, not possessing a true mastery of the physical body, but rather display feats of super-human strength while their connection to the force remains. Once the force is tooken away from a jedi all that is left standing is a man with a Lightsaber.

I guess this long message just translates you don't agree, simple. Its good thing you finally said so in one of your previous messages.

That source didn't prove what you said but rather a waste of time. the Matukai have been known as whirlwinds of combat, with or without their weapons. And one of the only matukai of legendary calibur was Mendor Typhoons, Mendor Typhoons was the only known Matukai Master Adept that was known to be a combat typhoon. The Jedi order long lost the battle of a physical abilities comparison against the Matukai.

Just accept that the Jedi aren't the strongest order like you think, i could mention several orders that are more powerful then the Jedi.

The Real big difference between the Jedi, Matukai, and Zeison Sha is not only their abilities, but the fact that the Matukai & Zeison Sha aren't iconic just yet, because they haven't had any stories reflected upon them, like the jedi and other orders. Once their stories are revealed in the form of either Books or Films, thats when you start eating your words, its a reason why they haven't shown them completely just yet, they are saving the best for last.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
I looked at that already, it changes nothing, Typhoons beats jedi whirlwinds & blurs.

Wow, you're completely sure that one unspecific term is better than two other unspecific terms, even though in real life the official speeds of typhoons are the exact same as the speed of whirlwinds.




Nope, the Matukai article specifically notes the Jedi do physical training as well, and I've also specifically noted that Luminara and other Jedi have done superhuman feats without calling on the force.

There are multiple Jedi in the Clone Wars era that are known to have specialized in unarmed combat, like Butler Swan and Luminara.

An unarmed Luminara beat up a Wampa, an alien dinosaur-like being the size of a T-rex, and killed a large battle droid, all specifically just physically, no force.



I've said I've disagreed for a long time.

And you can disagree too if you want- it's just you constantly say that X group can do this or Jedi can't do that, and every time when we look at the sources, nothing supports that, and often outright disagree.

It's purely your own personal views. And you're allowed to have your views! Just don't expect everyone to just agree without sources, and also expect everyone else to call you on it being wrong when you try and attack them for claiming stuff the sources disagree with.

It'd do you a lot of good to present your opinions as opinions, rather than as some official truth that everyone has to agree with even if the sources don't mention it.




Well, this rather cuts to the crux of the issue. You don't care what the sources say in many cases.

If the Jedi have force barriers that do everything the ZS's are said to do, and if the Jedi have done blatantly superhuman physical acts just like the Matukai do, you don't care, you just ignore it.

Your head-Jedi do less than the sources say the actual Jedi do.




The Ones are the strongest Order, not the Jedi. They have the feats to back it up.


However, you keep on asserting these orders are stronger- even though they've done less, and based on the idea that the Jedi can't do what they do, even when the Jedi actually do so. You do need to get used to the fact that just because you like them and they have some cool tricks, that doesn't mean they're more powerful.

Heck, you do realize both Matukai and Zeison Sha came from the RPG, right? And that means they have statistics that show their abilities all the way up to Master level if one wants to play them?

And these stats do not place them as more powerful than the Jedi, only more specialized.





There's two other very large factor that you're overlooking.

One, the Jedi are bigger and lasted longer, meaning they've been able to pick up many more recruits, the best recruits, and have a bigger knowledge base.

Two, the Matukai and Zeison Sha are specialized, they only train in some area. The Jedi are generalized... meaning they train in the same areas the Matukai and Zeison Sha do too! There are Jedi that specialize in Hand to Hand, there are Jedi that specialize in telekinetics. The order as a whole are generalists, but not all individual are, and the specialists have very much not shown any weakness in these areas.

Just because one group is good at something, it doesn't actually make other orders weaker at it. It just means that many aren't going to be in that area, but those who do work in those areas can still be really good... and considering we're talking an order of 10,000 vs an order of 60~ (Matukai), well, they're going to have more sparring partners to sharpen themselves on, even out of just the minority that work in those specific areas.

Heck, Matukai were known to join the Jedi on occasion! Meaning, for all your assertion that Matukai were stronger, there'd be Jedi fully training in Matukai techniques that'd be passed on to the Jedi order.




Well, this is the best argument you've given so far- it is true that in the future, they could make some extraordinarily Matukai or Zeison Sha characters if they wanted to, they could make them stronger than the Jedi.

I merely point out they definitely have yet to actually do so, nor indicated that they plan to.

And conversely, they could easily do the opposite.


Ah, uh, you do know they're talking about ending the EU, right? So there's quite possibly not going to be the opportunity.

Not to mention blurs are much faster.


Oh, and you contradicted yourself again. You called the Matukai, "Whirlwinds and typhoons", with no comment on Jedi speed. I am the one who mentioned the tier you spoke of were typically, "blurs, if even visible at all"

All in all, gtfo.

The matukai are the 2 most powerful ther skin can be strong to were a lightsaber
Could not cut ther skin not to say that the matukai are called blurs or whirlwind of blads and that mendor is a typhoon and that matukai are to have neai physical perfection and that jedi are only called blurs and that only when they are using the force and they are to the point to where they can not get sick and the matukai adept are inmmune to kouhon posin not even the so called great jedi order can't even survive

Originally posted by Pwned
Not to mention blurs are much faster.


Oh, and you contradicted yourself again. You called the Matukai, "Whirlwinds and typhoons", with no comment on Jedi speed. I am the one who mentioned the tier you spoke of were typically, "blurs, if even visible at all"

All in all, gtfo. There wasn't a first time i contradicted myself. Yeah you were the one who first mentioned the jedis i listed being blurs, but i already knew that before-hand, just didn't mention it untill you brought it up.

(and i wasn't going to keep repeating the same physical abilities comparison between Jedi & Matukai, since i already revealed that)

If you wanna say what i really contradicted myself on, i contradicted myself conserning the Jedi being the most powerful spiritually, when that turned out to be false. "taking back what i originally said" The Aing Tii are the most powerful force users spiritually. You were right and also wrong at the same time.

Not to mention that Matukai were already known as blurs when running, but they were also known as whirlwind blurs when fighting, and when doing complex martial sequences.

Originally posted by Q99
Wow, you're completely sure that one unspecific term is better than two other unspecific terms, even though in real life the official speeds of typhoons are the exact same as the speed of whirlwinds.




Nope, the Matukai article specifically notes the Jedi do physical training as well, and I've also specifically noted that Luminara and other Jedi have done superhuman feats without calling on the force.

There are multiple Jedi in the Clone Wars era that are known to have specialized in unarmed combat, like Butler Swan and Luminara.

An unarmed Luminara beat up a Wampa, an alien dinosaur-like being the size of a T-rex, and killed a large battle droid, all specifically just physically, no force.



I've said I've disagreed for a long time.

And you can disagree too if you want- it's just you constantly say that X group can do this or Jedi can't do that, and every time when we look at the sources, nothing supports that, and often outright disagree.

It's purely your own personal views. And you're allowed to have your views! Just don't expect everyone to just agree without sources, and also expect everyone else to call you on it being wrong when you try and attack them for claiming stuff the sources disagree with.

It'd do you a lot of good to present your opinions as opinions, rather than as some official truth that everyone has to agree with even if the sources don't mention it.




Well, this rather cuts to the crux of the issue. You don't care what the sources say in many cases.

If the Jedi have force barriers that do everything the ZS's are said to do, and if the Jedi have done blatantly superhuman physical acts just like the Matukai do, you don't care, you just ignore it.

Your head-Jedi do less than the sources say the actual Jedi do.




The Ones are the strongest Order, not the Jedi. They have the feats to back it up.


However, you keep on asserting these orders are stronger- even though they've done less, and based on the idea that the Jedi can't do what they do, even when the Jedi actually do so. You do need to get used to the fact that just because you like them and they have some cool tricks, that doesn't mean they're more powerful.

Heck, you do realize both Matukai and Zeison Sha came from the RPG, right? And that means they have statistics that show their abilities all the way up to Master level if one wants to play them?

And these stats do not place them as more powerful than the Jedi, only more specialized.





There's two other very large factor that you're overlooking.

One, the Jedi are bigger and lasted longer, meaning they've been able to pick up many more recruits, the best recruits, and have a bigger knowledge base.

Two, the Matukai and Zeison Sha are specialized, they only train in some area. The Jedi are generalized... meaning they train in the same areas the Matukai and Zeison Sha do too! There are Jedi that specialize in Hand to Hand, there are Jedi that specialize in telekinetics. The order as a whole are generalists, but not all individual are, and the specialists have very much not shown any weakness in these areas.

Just because one group is good at something, it doesn't actually make other orders weaker at it. It just means that many aren't going to be in that area, but those who do work in those areas can still be really good... and considering we're talking an order of 10,000 vs an order of 60~ (Matukai), well, they're going to have more sparring partners to sharpen themselves on, even out of just the minority that work in those specific areas.

Heck, Matukai were known to join the Jedi on occasion! Meaning, for all your assertion that Matukai were stronger, there'd be Jedi fully training in Matukai techniques that'd be passed on to the Jedi order.




Well, this is the best argument you've given so far- it is true that in the future, they could make some extraordinarily Matukai or Zeison Sha characters if they wanted to, they could make them stronger than the Jedi.

I merely point out they definitely have yet to actually do so, nor indicated that they plan to.

And conversely, they could easily do the opposite.


Ah, uh, you do know they're talking about ending the EU, right? So there's quite possibly not going to be the opportunity. Here's some things that destroys what you have stated about the jedi's "natural" physical dominance. Number 1, the Jedi tought the practition of Force-imbued gymnastics and speed, using the force as an extension to one's body. Rather then channel the body's natural Strength. (Such as what the Matukai are most powerful at)

In Other words, Luminara unduli's and Mace windu's physical feats were primarily due to the Force.

2nd is you contradicted yourself for the 7th time, why? because you had said yourself previously that, the Jedi do NOT specialize nor have weaknesses in all areas but rather in the middle. (MostBalanced) But now you're saying that the Jedi order specializes in all areas, which GOES AGAINST what you previously said to KylarWhite. The Jedi being the most balanced but not the most powerful, which is what i was saying the whole time.

I cannot take you seriously anymore, you add & delete way too much. Like before when you tried to say that the Zeison Sha only survived by cowtowing to the empire. (endured) when it was already said that they did not take kindly to the imperial invasion, and were actively resisting the empire's occupation. you already knew well in clear the difference between the word (Resist) which means Fight Back, and the word (Endure) which means bear it. And you tried to make it appear as if the Zeison Sha beared and let the empire enslave their order, that would have been a contradiction to themselfs and contradicting their Philosophy.

The Zeison Sha are not specialist at what they do, but rather the most powerful at what they do. (Telekinesis & Telekinetic force powers) since they are able to pull down ships and lift the most heavy of objects with minimum effort.

Im done with you. Rant on your opinions about the Zeison Sha on the thread that was ment for that subject, not this one, i already told you this before and will not tell you again.

Hey, good news! I have just received word that Star Wars: Hero's Guide has shipped from Amazon. Or in other words, the book with the Matukai in it, including a full list of their powers.



Not dominant, just not weak. Jedi, being a generalist organization, will have people specialized and strong in a variety of areas.



Again, they use similar methods, Jedi do channel their natural strength. You're creating an artificial divide that isn't there, and I have provided examples of Jedi using the methods you say they don't use.



Nope, Luminara's feat was specifically, out-loud said to be purely a matter of physics and not the force, she did them while banned from using the force. Yes, she was literally banned from using the force while she defeated a Wampa in hand to hand.

Also, the Matukai physical ability and force training are specifically said to be interlinked- their physical abilities use the force.

Their physical abilities are indeed said to be very interlinked with the force, and they did not view physical ability and the force as separate.



Which some Jedi can do too (and no Zeison Sha has actually ever pulled down ships technically speaking, and nothing says TK takes less effort for them).

Also, the Zeison Sha were specialist, they did little training in foresight or mind-powers. That's why they have a very high TK power normally, they put more training into it than most Jedi.



I have added and deleted nothing, and presented evidence I have not done so. Furthermore, many of the things I have posted are from the physically-uneditable solid books. You have lied repeatedly. Dishonesty and false accusations undercuts you.

Do not pretend I said something I didn't just because what I said doesn't suit your argument. It's a very scummy thing to do.



I never said cowtowing or anything of the sort, stop lying to cover your mistakes or to pretend me as saying something I'm not.

I said they resisted, but their resistance did not kick the garrison off their planet, and the word 'endured' was even used. Meaning they resisted militarily, their resistance was not the casual casualty-free affair you present it as.

They fought, they likely protected their holdings and the people of the planet very well, it was an ongoing conflict that they endured. That is what the sources say.


---


The reason I mention the other order in this thread is because it's all the same argument, whichever organization you're talking about, with you just going around with the same arguments:

SWL- "The ZS and Matukai are the most powerful!"

Us- "Why?"

SWL- "Because they can do W and X!"

Us- "Ok, but Jedi can do W and X too."

SWL- "But their W and X means they can do Y and Z!"

Us- "We can find nothing that says they have those additional attributes and Jedi don't. Why do you say so?"

SWL- "Because (slight difference in description)."

Us- "Slight difference in description does not mention Y and Z at all."

SWL- "Also, the Jedi are also inferior at A."

Us- "Nothing says that."

SWL- "They can't do B!"

Us- "Here's them doing B."

Whatever the specifics, it's the same thing, going around and around.

It's not about the facts with you since you don't use the sources anyway, it's about you not accepting what you want to be true is merely that, a want, and that we're never going to accept whatever artificial weakness or unmentioned ability just because you repeat it a lot, because the facts are all about the sources which simply do not back you up.

Originally posted by Q99
Hey, good news! I have just received word that Star Wars: Hero's Guide has shipped from Amazon. Or in other words, the book with the Matukai in it, including a full list of their powers.



Not dominant, just not weak. Jedi, being a generalist organization, will have people specialized and strong in a variety of areas.



Again, they use similar methods, Jedi do channel their natural strength. You're creating an artificial divide that isn't there, and I have provided examples of Jedi using the methods you say they don't use.



Nope, Luminara's feat was specifically, out-loud said to be purely a matter of physics and not the force, she did them while banned from using the force. Yes, she was literally banned from using the force while she defeated a Wampa in hand to hand.

Also, the Matukai physical ability and force training are specifically said to be interlinked- their physical abilities use the force.

Their physical abilities are indeed said to be very interlinked with the force, and they did not view physical ability and the force as separate.



Which some Jedi can do too (and no Zeison Sha has actually ever pulled down ships technically speaking, and nothing says TK takes less effort for them).

Also, the Zeison Sha were specialist, they did little training in foresight or mind-powers. That's why they have a very high TK power normally, they put more training into it than most Jedi.



I have added and deleted nothing, and presented evidence I have not done so. Furthermore, many of the things I have posted are from the physically-uneditable solid books. You have lied repeatedly. Dishonesty and false accusations undercuts you.

Do not pretend I said something I didn't just because what I said doesn't suit your argument. It's a very scummy thing to do.



I never said cowtowing or anything of the sort, stop lying to cover your mistakes or to pretend me as saying something I'm not.

I said they resisted, but their resistance did not kick the garrison off their planet, and the word 'endured' was even used. Meaning they resisted militarily, their resistance was not the casual casualty-free affair you present it as.

They fought, they likely protected their holdings and the people of the planet very well, it was an ongoing conflict that they endured. That is what the sources say. And here's your downfall. The Star Wars roleplaying game hero's guide was where the Zeison Sha and Matukai were first MENTIONED, they never made canon appearences that were archived to tell.

Jedi don't channel their natural strength in any aspect of abilities. The jedi were already quoted to use force-imbued gymnastics and speed to get the results that they wanted physically, which is why the Gray Paladins disagreed with their training methods and broke their bonds with the Jedi order. The Gray Paladins preffered not to rely on the force to achieve their goals in capabilities, such as what the jedi order been doing ever since they split from their original order.

And now you're going against what you said again!? you just got finished saying the Zeison Sha are just specialist at what they do, and since they are "just" specialist they can do it easier, and now you're saying it takes just as much effort for a Zeison Sha to pull down ships as it is for a jedi? pathetic.

and now you're saying you haven't added and deleted, while calling me scummy at that? remember when you kept saying that the Zeison Sha only survived due to the empire establishing imperial persecution on their force order, or your words they only survived because the empire put the Zeison Sha into a life of hardship? you said something very similar if not exact to what i just exemplified you stating. (In other words you said the Zeison Sha survived due to them cowtowing to imperial Control being put into a life of hardship) And now you're trying to say that you, have been stating that they have resisted this whole time instead of enduring ?

And to correct your problem conserning the Matukai. The Matukai weren't just a order of 60, their tradition was founded by human female before 4,000 BBY and she started the tradition of 60 Matukai members every generation, and since then the tradition hasn't been broken, there have been more then just 60 members overall in their order, even though thats small in comparison to the numberous jedi that suffer near annihilation 80% of the times after their wars are over.

And you saying that the Matukai were known to join the jedi on occasions? thats false. Because during the time of the great jedi perge where Matukai order were split into groups of 5, the Empire sent their assassination inquisitors after the Matukai order, most of the Matukai apprentices were killed, and all the Matukai adepts died ensuring their apprentice's safety, ultimately being killed by the Sith inquisitors. Leaving only 10 Matukai apprentices left to carry on the Matukai tradition, and some of those 10 joined Luke Skywalker's jedi praxeum. The Matukai often rejected the Jedi offers of unification, Mendor Typhoons is one example of that.

Anything else you want to add or delete ?

One, the RPGs are canon, a lot of info on various groups and figures come from them. Two, that's where almost all of the background info comes from, except for the info in Jedi vs Sith the Complete Guide to the Force.

Three, I have it, and I now have the info! Which, by the way, was the only book that had them in it that I didn't have. Meaning I have all the canon info on Matukai and Zeison Sha, and can speak on them authoratively, because there is literally no sources that are beyond my knowledge.

And I'm surprised you were actually half right about some things.


Like, for example, the Zeison Sha do have a special force barrier ability separate from the normal force barrier. It's called force bubble, and it's lower level and weaker than the full Force Barrier feat.

Basically what it means is generally only high-level Jedi can make force barriers, and they're as good as Zeison Sha barriers, but low-level Zeison Sha can put up bubbles. The bubbles are pretty fragile and won't last long under fire, though, and they take a fair amount of vitality to use, meaning they also can't keep them up too long without tiring (pretty much the opposite of what you said).

And I say 'generally' because.... well, Jedi can learn force bubble too, it's not unique to the Zeison Sha, just common to them. The Zeison Sha don't particularly do anything unique, they just focus more in the area.

Additionally, the Zeison Sha have the ability to do low-level TK abilities more consistently and easier. While it doesn't apply to higher level abilities like Jedi, moving objects is more at-ease for them than it is for Jedi.



And the Matukai? Well, they're good at martial arts. They can get an extra attack when using their wan-shen, so they are fairly fast, but not in a way that others can't replicate. And... they have a lower attack bonus than either the Zeison Sha or Jedi. So they're like D&D monks in that, they can make more attacks, but the attacks aren't quite as strong.

They also have some nice body-control abilities. Resistance to poison, controlling body heat, being able to resist punches better. Nothing too combat powerful, mostly they're a bit tougher to hurt in HtH and can survive better in a variety of conditions due to body control.

Honestly I was kinda disappointed on them. The Zeison Sha are a pretty nice class if you want to do a TK specialist, if you want to play a TK character there's no reason *not* to do a ZS, but the Matukai special abilities are mainly on body control, not butt-kicking.



Yep, because it takes a specialist/expert to do that at all, and Jedi can specialize/become expert in high level TK as well.

You're the one who decided that since they're specialized, they must be better at all levels of TK, but the book indicates their increased familiarity just makes low-level abilities easier and gives them access to some spiffy TK abilities a bit sooner than Jedi would. They don't gain any super high level abilities Jedi can't get, they just can do lower level TK like the back of their hand and learn some TK abilities a bit sooner.

That is what the book says.


Also, no Zeison Sha has actually pulled a ship from the sky, so we're just speculating that it's possible. I agree it is if one of them manages to get force potential high enough, but still, we should be clear on what's shown and what's just speculation.



You literally.... said something was false, then provided an example of it happening.

I really don't need to add anything to that.




Except I've already provided multiple examples of them doing so.

The Gray Paladins felt one should only use the force to augment existing skills, instead of relying on abilities that come strait from the force, but that does not mean the Jedi never did that too, only that they did both.

Also, the Matukai specifically used force imbued abilities akin to the Jedi. They weren't on the Gray Paladin's side of this., they were like the Jedi. The Hero's Guide specifically says the Matukai use the force "In many of the same ways the Jedi do."

It also covers their training, and how many of their exercises start on the physical, but by the end get to parts that require the force to complete. The Gray Paladins wouldn't be pleased with their training methods, actually.


There's also not one but four different unarmed martial arts in the book that Jedi use and do not require the force in the slightest.


You can say "the Jedi can't/don't do this" til you're blue in the face, but it doesn't matter when the Jedi can/have done that.




Why do you think false accusations does anything but make you look bad?

You know I didn't change anything, you know I didn't have to, lying about it just paints you as a dishonest debater.

I'm not one to pick sides but I'm with star wars logic but some what however i do see you'r side of the story and i agree some what also I have read the hero's guide and the zeison sha are not in the guide nor is the matukai they are not classes that is the first that they are mentioned

Originally posted by TsunamicTadpole
I'm not one to pick sides but I'm with star wars logic but some what however i do see you'r side of the story and i agree some what also I have read the hero's guide and the zeison sha are not in the guide nor is the matukai they are not classes that is the first that they are mentioned

Hey starwarslogic, nice sockpuppet! General tip, when making a sockpuppet, try changing your writing style more, don't just agree to the same arguments as your main accounts using the same phrasing. It's like a fingerprint, it makes it pretty obvious it's you.

And no, they are in the Hero's guide, with whole seconds, pictures, class features, the works. Page 143 for the Matukai and 146 for the Zeison Sha, for reference.

It's the source where wookiepedia gets the main picture of them from.

A dude I'm not a sock I'm a tadpole

N no I'm not star wars logic

O n ok I will look at the book some more

And if some one writing style some what the some that is a stupid coincidence also note I am a tadpole and note the writing style not all the some so ya :-)

Originally posted by TsunamicTadpole
O n ok I will look at the book some more


You have the book? Good, then I'll mention a few things.


Note how the Matukai have a +0/1/2/2/3 base attack progression, as opposed to the +1/2/3/4/5 of the Zeison Sha or Jedi or Imperial Knight (another lightside organization, in a different book). Meaning, they may have some abilities, but they're less good at actually hitting with an individual attack than those combat classes. They aren't a weak class, but they're more about flexibility and surviving than offensive power.





And on the Zeison Sha Warrior class, take a look at the level 5 ability- intercept projectile. It allows them to reflexively TK small objects to block projectile attacks, and one of the only abilities they have that Jedi don't get (showing where they get an advantage is familiarity- they can do small and fast stuff easily). Sounds nice, right? Akin to lightsaber blocking, but with a buncha small objects.

Well, it is nice, no doubt, but the Zeison Sha Warrior class is noted to be something only the strongest Zeison Sha get, meaning a lot of them don't have it at all, and furthermore, it's only something they get after all five levels of it, meaning that many Zeison Sha warriors don't have it yet anyway.

Meaning that while a Jedi may be able to block blaster bolts all day, and a Zeison Sha master can do the same, most Zeison Sha simply don't have that option. They either gotta use force bubble- useful for only a short time and a few attacks, and tiring- or just count on their armor.

There's a definite reason they wear armor, they need it!


And the ability can only be used once per round, meaning even a master can't handle many shots at once.

Originally posted by Q99
One, the RPGs are canon, a lot of info on various groups and figures come from them. Two, that's where almost all of the background info comes from, except for the info in Jedi vs Sith the Complete Guide to the Force.

Three, I have it, and I now have the info! Which, by the way, was the only book that had them in it that I didn't have. Meaning I have all the canon info on Matukai and Zeison Sha, and can speak on them authoratively, because there is literally no sources that are beyond my knowledge.

And I'm surprised you were actually half right about some things.


Like, for example, the Zeison Sha do have a special force barrier ability separate from the normal force barrier. It's called force bubble, and it's lower level and weaker than the full Force Barrier feat.

Basically what it means is generally only high-level Jedi can make force barriers, and they're as good as Zeison Sha barriers, but low-level Zeison Sha can put up bubbles. The bubbles are pretty fragile and won't last long under fire, though, and they take a fair amount of vitality to use, meaning they also can't keep them up too long without tiring (pretty much the opposite of what you said).

And I say 'generally' because.... well, Jedi can learn force bubble too, it's not unique to the Zeison Sha, just common to them. The Zeison Sha don't particularly do anything unique, they just focus more in the area.

Additionally, the Zeison Sha have the ability to do low-level TK abilities more consistently and easier. While it doesn't apply to higher level abilities like Jedi, moving objects is more at-ease for them than it is for Jedi.



And the Matukai? Well, they're good at martial arts. They can get an extra attack when using their wan-shen, so they are fairly fast, but not in a way that others can't replicate. And... they have a lower attack bonus than either the Zeison Sha or Jedi. So they're like D&D monks in that, they can make more attacks, but the attacks aren't quite as strong.

They also have some nice body-control abilities. Resistance to poison, controlling body heat, being able to resist punches better. Nothing too combat powerful, mostly they're a bit tougher to hurt in HtH and can survive better in a variety of conditions due to body control.

Honestly I was kinda disappointed on them. The Zeison Sha are a pretty nice class if you want to do a TK specialist, if you want to play a TK character there's no reason *not* to do a ZS, but the Matukai special abilities are mainly on body control, not butt-kicking.



Yep, because it takes a specialist/expert to do that at all, and Jedi can specialize/become expert in high level TK as well.

You're the one who decided that since they're specialized, they must be better at all levels of TK, but the book indicates their increased familiarity just makes low-level abilities easier and gives them access to some spiffy TK abilities a bit sooner than Jedi would. They don't gain any super high level abilities Jedi can't get, they just can do lower level TK like the back of their hand and learn some TK abilities a bit sooner.

That is what the book says.


Also, no Zeison Sha has actually pulled a ship from the sky, so we're just speculating that it's possible. I agree it is if one of them manages to get force potential high enough, but still, we should be clear on what's shown and what's just speculation.



You literally.... said something was false, then provided an example of it happening.

I really don't need to add anything to that.




Except I've already provided multiple examples of them doing so.

The Gray Paladins felt one should only use the force to augment existing skills, instead of relying on abilities that come strait from the force, but that does not mean the Jedi never did that too, only that they did both.

Also, the Matukai specifically used force imbued abilities akin to the Jedi. They weren't on the Gray Paladin's side of this., they were like the Jedi. The Hero's Guide specifically says the Matukai use the force "In many of the same ways the Jedi do."

It also covers their training, and how many of their exercises start on the physical, but by the end get to parts that require the force to complete. The Gray Paladins wouldn't be pleased with their training methods, actually.


There's also not one but four different unarmed martial arts in the book that Jedi use and do not require the force in the slightest.


You can say "the Jedi can't/don't do this" til you're blue in the face, but it doesn't matter when the Jedi can/have done that.




Why do you think false accusations does anything but make you look bad?

You know I didn't change anything, you know I didn't have to, lying about it just paints you as a dishonest debater. Here's where you're wrong. And you unknowingly supported the orders of subject. (Zeison Sha) (Matukai)

The http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hero%27s_Guide was for the purpose of new insight, and the introduction of multiple force using traditions, and those were, thehttp://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Zeison_Sha. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Matukai.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Baran_Do.

One of the abilities for the Zeison Sha Warrior at that time was Force Bubble Shield, which was something that costed vitality and was limited, to balance the new class off from other classes. Provided that the there where also choices to make a weaker Force bubble shield then the maximum that was allowed.

Later sources revealed that the Zeison Sha Warriors have evolved past the basic feats & proficiencies listed as unlockable for players to use to their advantage. Also the Zeison Sha Warriors stopped the usage of the force bubble shield. And began to use telekinetically created physical shields that wrapped around the body, covering all openings in defense that could be exploited. Rather then surround the exterior of the body in a circular shape. While they also mentioned short noted developments in the Matukai's physical abilities in Body Control, physical Strength, Stamina, Speed, Dexterity, and Constitution.

And some of those sources were, http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_vs._Sith:_The_Essential_Guide_to_the_Force.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Academy_Training_Manual.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Complete_Star_Wars_Encyclopedia.http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/ The_Jedi_Path:_A_Manual_for_Students_of_the_Force_
(real-life_book).

In short, the hero's guide was for new insight. And the introduction of new force using traditions, it never did clarify the maximum height of power for any of the prestige force traditions. Only a maximum was allowed for all the classes. Since it was for the purpose of introduction, not verification.

I provided a example showing the ONLY time the Matukai joined a Jedi praxeum, and even then they were only Matukai apprentices. If they were Matukai adepts, then the Jedi order would have witnessed the results of a fully trained Matukai, and used that exemplified assertion as a training regimen for the physical criteria of their order. The Matukai didn't join the Jedi on common occasions like you think.

The Matukai were most powerful at using the force to not only augment their bodies, (Similar to the jedi training methods in gymnastics and speed) but to Channel & Strengthen them as well.

http://force.wikidot.com/matukai-adept-class.

At the end of it, the Matukai are not just known for inward-mastery, (as you stated) but also for outward-mastery (the physical body's attirbutes) while it was revealed that the Matukai adepts are Masters of the Force .


Here's another revelation that i didn't know about, The Zeison Sha Warriors on average have the basic kinetic ability of flight. They can FLY !?

http://force.wikidot.com/zeison-sha-warrior-class

In the very end The Matukai adepts are Spiritual & Physical Masters. And the Zeison Sha Warriors are unmatched in Telekinesis & Telekinetic Force Powers.

You are a deceitful hypocrite, do i need to pull up your quotes & contradictions for you to realize this ?

Originally posted by Q99
Hey starwarslogic, nice sockpuppet! General tip, when making a sockpuppet, try changing your writing style more, don't just agree to the same arguments as your main accounts using the same phrasing. It's like a fingerprint, it makes it pretty obvious it's you.

And no, they are in the Hero's guide, with whole seconds, pictures, class features, the works. Page 143 for the Matukai and 146 for the Zeison Sha, for reference.

It's the source where wookiepedia gets the main picture of them from. You really think im TsunamicTadpole? even after seeing what happened to his account? This proves you are either a tenacious individual, or just ignorant. Pure and simple .

Actually, socks are banned. It's against forum rules.

Saying that just reinforces that it was you.


Oh, and provide page numbers for all these claims you are making.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic

Later sources revealed that the Zeison Sha Warriors have evolved past the basic feats & proficiencies listed as unlockable for players to use to their advantage. Also the Zeison Sha Warriors stopped the usage of the force bubble shield. And began to use telekinetically created physical shields that wrapped around the body, covering all openings in defense that could be exploited.

Quote? Evidence? We know you're a liar who makes stuff up, so we're hardly going to take your word for it when compared with an actual source.


Heck you post a link to their class later in your post, Here, which says their shield works like this, i.e. the bubble that did exactly what I said.

Hardly abandoned at all! Your own sources disagree with you!





Well, Jedi vs Sith Certainly doesn't say anything about it! And Jedi Path doesn't. And Jedi Academy Training Manual!

Do you actually have these books and can you point to a quote, or are you just making up BS again?

Because if you can't provide a quote, maybe one I could've hypothetically missed, then you're just asking us to ignore a direct source.

If you don't have the books, then you're just going to have to face it, I have the sources and you don't, and your wants can't override the sources.





Actually it was for the purpose of use as a character. These were complete classes. The same complete classes you link.


And nothing in it says they have these higher-end abilities you claim they have. You can't just make up and assume higher end feats that are never mentioned and aren't on their classes, you need direct evidence.





You provided an example of a group joining, and more could've done so after.

And I never said it was common, just that it happened, and the Jedi have access to their techniques from any point after they join.


And if the Matukai training is so superior, why did so many of their apprentices join the Jedi?




One, wanna know who else are masters of the force both inwardly and outwardly? The Jedi!

Two, note that one has the lower attack progression that I mentioned. Note how while they have some nice physical abilities, they don't even have the highest levels of offense around.


Three, take a look at their prerequisite feat: Spellcaster.

Want to know what the Spellcaster feat does? Well, it's for non-jedi groups like the Dathomir Witches and such who can't access the force as quickly and thus spend a longer time doing it.

It means that for any non-physical force action the Matukai take, they're slower than Jedi.







Yes, an ability not unique to them, that Jedi have used too. Woo-hoo.

It's an available feat to their class, that was a pre-existing force feat. Think about that.





One, that page is nothing more than a direct copy of the Hero's Guide info on them.... so thanks, makes it a lot easier to show what they can and don't do ^^

Two, it doesn't say spiritual *anywhere* in that page. Or unmatched.

Three, note how all of their big abilities listed- Force Flight, Force Shield, etc., are feats. Meaning, they aren't unique to them.


Oh yes, and the force bubble you said they didn't use and replaced with wrapping?

Well, here it is, working exactly like I said.

Seems it is the wrapping with the force they were talking about.


Also I should mention, the Legacy Era Campaign Guide not only has the feat available to Jedi and Imperial Knights and Sith of the time, but it also has Improved Force Shield, which gives one more control over it's size and power, and lets one person wrap multiple people and such.






You lie, falsely accuse others, can't back up your accusations, and make stuff up and can't back up your statements either.


What makes you think trying to accuse others while the facts repeatedly prove you wrong, even your own sources, means anything?

Oh yes, something else about the Matukai:

They were hunted down and almost brought to extinction by, specifically, the Empire's Inquisitors. This is what killed most of their fully trained warriors.

The strongest Imperial Inquisitor was Jerec.

Jerec was finally defeated and killed by a Jedi, Kyle Katarn, before Kyle Katarn reached his highest level.


A Jedi killed the strongest member of the organization that killed most of the Matukai.



There were several other people in the New Jedi Order the level of Kyle or higher (he was among the best, but had peers), too.

Oh yes, another thing about the edit accusations- even if someone edited something then deleted their names from the logs, the past versions are still there... and there's another copy for every edit.

In order to delete all trace of information that's been around for awhile, someone would have to go through dozens or possibly over a hundred past versions, missing any one of which would unravel the whole thing.

In short, the edit accusations are stupid, it is perhaps the most easy to check thing on earth, and are just a poor deflection attempt.

Wow, I never seen someone make a sock account only to have it so obvious. Q99, you earned my respect, debating with this guy.

Originally posted by GenomeFrozener
Wow, I never seen someone make a sock account only to have it so obvious. Q99, you earned my respect, debating with this guy.


It's a bad habit of mine. And hey, if nothing else, it's actually been kinda fun researching these minor groups and finding out what they actually can and can't do ^^

Originally posted by Pwned
Actually, socks are banned. It's against forum rules.

Saying that just reinforces that it was you.


Oh, and provide page numbers for all these claims you are making. No i didn't make that account, that was my friend on Xbox live. he's the biggest supporter of the Matukai tradition, and when i told him about the subject on here conserning the Matukai and the disagreemnets twords them, he decided that he wanted to come and defend his tradition.

(The only reason why anyone would have thought that was me was because of his writing style, he never logged into a forum site untill i told him about this one) Q99's false accusations got someone restricted due to his assumptions. Just because i defended myself against accusations dosen't reinforce anything. Since you're accusing me of something i didn't do go find the exact pages yourself.

Originally posted by Q99
Quote? Evidence? We know you're a liar who makes stuff up, so we're hardly going to take your word for it when compared with an actual source.


Heck you post a link to their class later in your post, Here, which says their shield works like this, i.e. the bubble that did exactly what I said.

Hardly abandoned at all! Your own sources disagree with you!





Well, Jedi vs Sith Certainly doesn't say anything about it! And Jedi Path doesn't. And Jedi Academy Training Manual!

Do you actually have these books and can you point to a quote, or are you just making up BS again?

Because if you can't provide a quote, maybe one I could've hypothetically missed, then you're just asking us to ignore a direct source.

If you don't have the books, then you're just going to have to face it, I have the sources and you don't, and your wants can't override the sources.





Actually it was for the purpose of use as a character. These were complete classes. The same complete classes you link.


And nothing in it says they have these higher-end abilities you claim they have. You can't just make up and assume higher end feats that are never mentioned and aren't on their classes, you need direct evidence.





You provided an example of a group joining, and more could've done so after.

And I never said it was common, just that it happened, and the Jedi have access to their techniques from any point after they join.


And if the Matukai training is so superior, why did so many of their apprentices join the Jedi?




One, wanna know who else are masters of the force both inwardly and outwardly? The Jedi!

Two, note that one has the lower attack progression that I mentioned. Note how while they have some nice physical abilities, they don't even have the highest levels of offense around.


Three, take a look at their prerequisite feat: Spellcaster.

Want to know what the Spellcaster feat does? Well, it's for non-jedi groups like the Dathomir Witches and such who can't access the force as quickly and thus spend a longer time doing it.

It means that for any non-physical force action the Matukai take, they're slower than Jedi.







Yes, an ability not unique to them, that Jedi have used too. Woo-hoo.

It's an available feat to their class, that was a pre-existing force feat. Think about that.





One, that page is nothing more than a direct copy of the Hero's Guide info on them.... so thanks, makes it a lot easier to show what they can and don't do ^^

Two, it doesn't say spiritual *anywhere* in that page. Or unmatched.

Three, note how all of their big abilities listed- Force Flight, Force Shield, etc., are feats. Meaning, they aren't unique to them.


Oh yes, and the force bubble you said they didn't use and replaced with wrapping?

Well, here it is, working exactly like I said.

Seems it is the wrapping with the force they were talking about.


Also I should mention, the Legacy Era Campaign Guide not only has the feat available to Jedi and Imperial Knights and Sith of the time, but it also has Improved Force Shield, which gives one more control over it's size and power, and lets one person wrap multiple people and such.






You lie, falsely accuse others, can't back up your accusations, and make stuff up and can't back up your statements either.


What makes you think trying to accuse others while the facts repeatedly prove you wrong, even your own sources, means anything? The sources didn't disagree with me, once you read both of the orders biographies, go down at the very bottom of wookieepedia, it shows all the sources funding the information conserning the 2 orders and those links i posted prevously proved that to be a fact.

I posted a link to both classes because the Hero's guide was where both orders were first mentioned, and since they were first brought into canon by the time of the hero's guide release, that ment the time period of those classes were 3,989 BBY, and the founding 4,000 BBY. Those were First generation Zeison Warriors, and first generation Matukai adepts. Not the ones that were involved in the great jedi perge, and the linked classes proved that a fact yet again.

You said the Matukai were known for joining the jedi. (Which implies that they have done more then once)

They weren't known for joining the jedi, since it only happened once and even then only 4 out of 10 of the Matukai apprentices joined Luke skywalker's jedi praxeum, not because the jedi's teachings were superior, but the Matukai training was too rigorous for them.

You tried to make it appear as if the Matukai were only known for inward physical mastery. When they are known for both inward and outward physical mastery, along with being known as masters of the force.

The proficiencies & force powers that were given to both the Zeison Sha Warriors and Matukai adept in the hero's guide, was their basics, not the full list nor the height of their abilities. Which was revealed later on in sources.

Everything you have said is disregarded, since it has nothing to do with the Zeison Sha Warriors & Matukai Adepts that were around during the time period of the great jedi perge.

Originally posted by Q99
Oh yes, something else about the Matukai:

They were hunted down and almost brought to extinction by, specifically, the Empire's Inquisitors. This is what killed most of their fully trained warriors.

The strongest Imperial Inquisitor was Jerec.

Jerec was finally defeated and killed by a Jedi, Kyle Katarn, before Kyle Katarn reached his highest level.


A Jedi killed the strongest member of the organization that killed most of the Matukai.



There were several other people in the New Jedi Order the level of Kyle or higher (he was among the best, but had peers), too. Yes the Matukai were put into near extinction by the Sith Inquisitors not because they were weak, but the fact that the Sith inquisitors hunted the Matukai down while the majority of them were split into groups of 3, which consisted of 1 Matukai adept and 2 apprentices, while the minority groups of 5 consisted of 2 Matukai adepts and 3 apprentices. Provided that they weren't aware that the Sith were hunting them. And in the end most of them were assassinated by the Sith inquisitors, due to the fact that the Matukai order never experienced the threat & power of Sith Sorcery from Sith inquisitors, which led to most of them being killed.

They were aware of the Empire's Inquisition, they actively tried to avoid them, the 'Jedi Academy training manual' says they went into hiding. In short, they felt staying in small groups was safer than trying to face them as a whole.

Also, Inquisitors were not given the name 'Sith' or taught powerful Sith Sorcery. Rule of two, remember? Only the Apprentice, i.e. Vader, gets taught the good techniques, Inquisitors were dark side adepts and fallen Jedi. Jerec, the strongest inquisitor, had the ambition of become Palpatine's apprentice so he could learn that knowledge, which was denied to him.

I'll comment several fell to the Vong and even members of the Peace Brigade.





One thing I'd like to reiterate is I not only have the first book with the Matukai, but the second book and the every book. I have every official writing on the Matukai and Zeison Sha and others.

The sources do not say what you say. You can make any claim, but I can check every source and confirm that what you say is not true.



Hey, wanna know who's known for inward and outward physical mastery, as well as being good at visions, TK, and other stuff?

The Jedi.

You're trying to claim that their physical skills make them better, but nothing ever says the Jedi are bad in those areas or don't learn those things, and multiple Jedi specifically have shown mastery in those areas.

And the Matukai organization was brought almost to extinction, over 96% casualties, by foes that were largely former Jedi and that the Jedi did beat in the end.



Yes, multiple joining does qualify as 'more than once.' Also, it was implied there was a lasting relationship between the orders, nothing says it was a one-time thing.



Nope! Nothing says that either. Nothing says none joined after the first batch, and nothing says they joined because they found the training too rigorous. Rather, they simply found Luke's order open enough that they had no problem with cross-training and people being members of both orders.



One more reminder: I have all the books with the Matukai. I can look up any claim about them and confirm whether it's something in the books, or something made up or assumed.

Originally posted by Q99
They were aware of the Empire's Inquisition, they actively tried to avoid them, the 'Jedi Academy training manual' says they went into hiding. In short, they felt staying in small groups was safer than trying to face them as a whole.

Also, Inquisitors were not given the name 'Sith' or taught powerful Sith Sorcery. Rule of two, remember? Only the Apprentice, i.e. Vader, gets taught the good techniques, Inquisitors were dark side adepts and fallen Jedi. Jerec, the strongest inquisitor, had the ambition of become Palpatine's apprentice so he could learn that knowledge, which was denied to him.

I'll comment several fell to the Vong and even members of the Peace Brigade.





One thing I'd like to reiterate is I not only have the first book with the Matukai, but the second book and the every book. I have every official writing on the Matukai and Zeison Sha and others.

The sources do not say what you say. You can make any claim, but I can check every source and confirm that what you say is not true.



Hey, wanna know who's known for inward and outward physical mastery, as well as being good at visions, TK, and other stuff?

The Jedi.

You're trying to claim that their physical skills make them better, but nothing ever says the Jedi are bad in those areas or don't learn those things, and multiple Jedi specifically have shown mastery in those areas.

And the Matukai organization was brought almost to extinction, over 96% casualties, by foes that were largely former Jedi and that the Jedi did beat in the end.



Yes, multiple joining does qualify as 'more than once.' Also, it was implied there was a lasting relationship between the orders, nothing says it was a one-time thing.



Nope! Nothing says that either. Nothing says none joined after the first batch, and nothing says they joined because they found the training too rigorous. Rather, they simply found Luke's order open enough that they had no problem with cross-training and people being members of both orders.



One more reminder: I have all the books with the Matukai. I can look up any claim about them and confirm whether it's something in the books, or something made up or assumed. None of the Matukai were aware that the empire was hunting them. The majority of matukai were killed in successful assassination attempts by the Imperial inquisitors, and the last Matukai apprentices that were attacked managed to escape and avoid the empire's forces. Some of those apprentices joined luke skywalker's jedi praxeum, Due to the Matukai tradition's rigorous training, and their very low numbers at that time.

You want to know what the Matukai are known for when it comes to jedi unification attempts? repulsing. Back during the time of 580 BBY, Bodo Baas led a jedi delegation to meet with Mendor Typhhons and his 2 apprentices after they had learned that, Mendor and his 2 apprentices wiped out a large group of pirates near Ord Radama. Bodo Baas had set up the meeting and was very optimistic upon entering the conversation and attempted to unifiy the Jedi order and Matukai. Mendor responded in comedic laughter, and later indicated to the Jedi that Matukai Warriors found Jedi training elitist, and ineffectual, thus Bodo and his delegation were repulsed.


Since you want to talk about sources, Look for Mendor Typhoons in one of those books you have or on the internet, he rupulsed the jedi attempts of unification and even told them how his order frowns upon Jedi training. And if you argue that, you are going against sources and contradicting yourself A G A I N.


And also YOU stated, "The Matukai's training was not rigorous nor the reason why some of the apprentices joined luke skywalker's jedi praxeum" that goes against sources, because it was said (Point Blank) in the Matukai's philosophy, that Matukai adepts were powerful and healthy as they were due to their (Rigorous) training. Do you need to know what that rigorous Matukai training is before you contradict it, Sources, and yourself ?


You still don't understand nor want to, here's the differences between Jedi and Matukai.

The Jedi order are a balance between Mind, Body, and Spirit, trusting in the force Mindset wise. While using the Force as an extension to one's abilities, Physically, Mentally, and Spiritually.

The Matukai were distinguished from all other force organizations due to the fact that they made their bodies the focus of their abilities. The Matukai were capable of drawing on the Force to Strengthen & Augment their bodies to unnatural limits, while doing this, they could also refresh their spirits with a tireless energy that allowed them to exert their bodies far past their unaided physical limits for hours at a time without tiring. Additionally this refreshing of the spirit augmented strength and resolve of a Matukai's blows, allowing them feats of Strength and power exceeding what their bodies are capable of.

(Breaking the Physical & Spiritual limits their bodies had) (Exceeding)

And in other words, the big difference between Jedi and Matukai is. The Matukai can never truly run out of stamina WITH or Without their connection to the force, while becoming more powerful physically & spiritually using their technique to refresh their spirits with a tireless energy after reaching exhaustion. Also they have the ability not only to deflect a sizable portion of incoming strikes & shots aimed at them, but to dodge them as well.

To put it simple, if a Matukai Adept were in Ki Adi Mundi's position during Star Wars Episode III Revenge Of The Sith. The Matukai Adept would have dodged that sizable portion of Blaster fire aim at him, escaping. Not dying.

The Jedi cannot use any of their proficiencies physically nor the aspects of their other abilities without their connection to the Force. The only thing that remains is a Man with a Lightsaber.

The Matukai used the Force in parts of their rigorous training methods, but once their training has been completed and they reach the Rank of Matukai Adept, they no longer have a need for the Force Physically nor Spiritually. And if someone were to strip Matukai Adepts of the Force, their abilities and their Strengthened bodies will remain. Same thing can't be said about the Jedi, since they use the Force as an extension to one's body and abilities rather then channel & strengthen them.

If you don't wanna argue Sources while contradicting yourself? then read Wookieepedia and you will find everything i have said there or in those books you have. Read or Research before Replying .

(Basically the Matukai Adepts are the X3 Albert Weskers of the Star Wars Universe)

If it doesn't matter, why do you keep trying to push your fan fiction?

Why do you need to assert that it's true and canon and all that?

And why do you go to the lengths of lying about what others say and falsely accusing them of lying?

You not only lie, you lie about easily-check, easily-caught lies, and have been caught in them repeatedly, most recently in the above post where you lied about something I said right before.



If you say something is true and not made up, and then one looks at the sources where the information comes from and they aren't there, then you hadn't discerned a 'true quote,' you're simply wrong. That's what being wrong is.


You should learn asserting something is true doesn't make it so.

Originally posted by Q99
If it doesn't matter, why do you keep trying to push your fan fiction?

Why do you need to assert that it's true and canon and all that?

And why do you go to the lengths of lying about what others say and falsely accusing them of lying?

You not only lie, you lie about easily-check, easily-caught lies, and have been caught in them repeatedly, most recently in the above post where you lied about something I said right before.



If you say something is true and not made up, and then one looks at the sources where the information comes from and they aren't there, then you hadn't discerned a 'true quote,' you're simply wrong. That's what being wrong is.


You should learn asserting something is true doesn't make it so. If you really feel that way then stop with your bickering and false accusations.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
If you really feel that way then stop with your bickering and false accusations.

You've not only made false accusations, but been caught in them.


And then when you make accusations, like saying I've been editing or that prior statement, they're often things that can be easily checked, and when checked it turns out, whoa, the wookiepedia articles haven't been edited recently, the logs have plenty of entries so even if one deleted the evidence of a specific edit it'd still be there in older stuff, they never contained what you said, and it turns out I said what I thought I said, not what you said I said.


You're almost a pathological liar, come to think of it.

Originally posted by Q99
You've not only made false accusations, but been caught in them.


And then when you make accusations, like saying I've been editing or that prior statement, they're often things that can be easily checked, and when checked it turns out, whoa, the wookiepedia articles haven't been edited recently, they never contained what you said, and it turns out I said what I thought I said, not what you said I said.


You're almost a pathological liar, come to think of it. Talk about the Matukai Subject, not your opinions of me. And seeing this little post of yours already says you ran out of Sources and Links to Contradict me on this subject. And now you are simply insulting me.

Give him actual proof then, not lies.

Originally posted by GenomeFrozener
Give him actual proof then, not lies. Everything i have said about this Order is actual proof, not lies. If he really wants proof that bad, then he knows where to look for it, here and on Wookieepedia. If you want to talk about lies, look at his lies, one his lies got someone restricted due to his biased assumptions, and in end what he thought was right turned out to be wrong, and now he's resorting to insults as a last stand. I don't need to do anything. If anyone needs to do something Q99 does, for one lets start with Q99 giving me a apology .

He doesn't owe you anything, this guy basically goes through a billion articles to see if your claims are true or not. I know it's one thing to lie, but you can't really even back up the said lie to make it believable.

Originally posted by GenomeFrozener
He doesn't owe you anything, this guy basically goes through a billion articles to see if your claims are true or not. I know it's one thing to lie, but you can't really even back up the said lie to make it believable.

Actually, more like four or five articles.

It simply isn't hard to fact-check this subject! They aren't in many books and what they say is pretty darn clear. Heck, only two of the books have more than a paragraph on them.

I mean, it makes it very clear that the Matukai suffered from the Imperial Inquisitors (who are reasonably strong but not top-tier badasses, not as much as some Jedi), and the Zeison Sha simply avoiding them like the plague and hid on their planet.




That's the point, I did look on Wookiepedia, and the books, and nothing says much of your stuff there.. And if it was there, you'd simply be able to grab a quote from wookiepedia in, like, 15 seconds, and you haven't. And I've checked there, and it's not there, and other people have checked, they see it's not there too.

Plain and simple, it's made up lies.





What, 'all of the sources' isn't enough to contradict you? You need more than "The books that have all their information and wookiepedia"? The Hero's Guide and the Jedi Training Manual are the ones with most of the info, and they disagree with you, and the Jedi path likewise, and wookiepedia disagrees with you as well.


Here's the thing: When making a claim of an ability, you need a source in your favor. You don't have any. My points are supported by literally all of the sources. All of them!

Once one source contradicts you, then you need a solid source and a direct quote to not be wrong (i.e. show sources that disagree). It's not a matter of 'I post one source, you repeat your argument, I need to post another, then repeat again.' That's just silly, sources don't work like that.


If "all of the sources" isn't enough for you, that says far more about you- that is, that you're making stuff up and don't have any sources- than it does about the subject.

Originally posted by GenomeFrozener
He doesn't owe you anything, this guy basically goes through a billion articles to see if your claims are true or not. I know it's one thing to lie, but you can't really even back up the said lie to make it believable. For one Q99 giving a apology will be a start for him/her in terms honesty. One of his lies got someone restricted due to biased assumptions, and everyone here completely overlooked that fact didn't they? the only quotes he's looking for are, (The Matukai are more powerful then the jedi physically) also he's looking for the quote, (The Matukai are the 2nd most powerful lightside force using tradition) and he's looked for the cause of the Matukai perge, and couldn't find what caused them to be put on the verge of extinction, so he made up a assumption to make up for the failure.

everything else said about the Matukai, conserning their physical abilities is fact alone, and those abilities deem them more powerful then the jedi physically. There has already been a Jedi vs Matukai incident, and it turned out the unidentified matukai adept won by a longshot.

Originally posted by Q99
Hey starwarslogic, nice sockpuppet

It's the source where wookiepedia gets the main picture of them from. ok im back you call me a sockpuppet got me well you now so i had to make a new account now i am tadpol

sorry i forgot to take the it's the source of wookiepedai out

Originally posted by GenomeFrozener
I know it's one thing to lie, but you can't really even back up the said lie to make it believable. Oh i can't back up the fact that Q99 lied!? how about you ask the person that got restricted, being mistaken for someone else, TsunamicTadpole. Now he's known as Tadpol.

If thats not enough, wait untill we're both online so there won't be any future false accusations and mixs ups.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Oh i can't back up the fact that Q99 lied!?


You accused me of lying and editing wookiepedia and I posted evidence otherwise, thus proving you were making it up.

And then when called on it, you kept to your lies even though, y'know, the evidence cleared me and showed you were making a false accusation.




And I'm still pretty sure tadpol is a sock- I mean, the mods check if someone's a sock. If I say, "Hey, I think someone is a sockpuppet!" like I did, I don't actually have the power to make it happen. The mods have to go, "Yep, looks like a sockpuppet," and do the banning.

If he's not, apologies, but between the writing style and the timing? Strikes me as unlikely.





Says the person who's been caught in numerous false-accusations.

This is kinda why I say you're pathological:

You make something up to sound big.

When called on it, you claim special knowledge that others don't have.

When someone has access to the knowledge, you accuse them of lying.

When called on it with proof, you accuse them of tampering with the source.

When provided with evidence that there's been no tampering with the source, you just stick with your accusations, and repeat them several times, even though you've been caught in a lie.


Then you move on to a different made-up thing about a separate group, and then, once again, someone with all the sources points out it's been made up, and then, once again, you resort to lying.




I mean, you're convincing precisely no-one. It's like you can't stop. When called on an error or exaggeration, you only have two responses, blow it up bigger or accuse the other person of lying.

Which kinda makes me feel bad at coming at you so much, because it seems to be a real problem, you have a legitimate problem with admitting you were making something up.

Originally posted by Q99
You accused me of lying and editing wookiepedia and I posted evidence otherwise, thus proving you were making it up.

And then when called on it, you kept to your lies even though, y'know, the evidence cleared me and showed you were making a false accusation.




And I'm still pretty sure tadpol is a sock- I mean, the mods check if someone's a sock. If I say, "Hey, I think someone is a sockpuppet!" like I did, I don't actually have the power to make it happen. The mods have to go, "Yep, looks like a sockpuppet," and do the banning.

If he's not, apologies, but between the writing style and the timing? Strikes me as pretty unlikely.





Says the person who's been caught in numerous false-accusations.

This is kinda why I say you're pathological:

You make something up to sound big.

When called on it, you claim special knowledge that others don't have.

When someone has access to the knowledge, you accuse them of lying.

When called on it with proof, you accuse them of tampering with the source.

When provided with evidence that there's been no tampering with the source, you just stick with your accusations, and repeat them several times, even though you've been caught in a lie.


Then you move on to a different made-up thing about a separate group, and then, once again, someone with all the sources points out it's been made up, and then, once again, you resort to lying.



I mean, you're convincing precisely no-one. It's like you can't stop. When called on an error or exaggeration, you only have two responses, blow it up bigger or accuse the other person of lying.

Which kinda makes me feel bad at coming at you so much, because it seems to be a real problem, you have a legitimate problem with admitting you were making something up. No don't reply to this message. Reply to the Message concerning the incident Jedi vs Matukai.

I didn't make anything up, you are suspect due to a reason previously stated, and the fact that you know the exact extent of what has to be done in order to erase all evidence concerning the contradictional statement.

So in other words what i said could be possibly right, or it could've been a mistake. But in your case, that lie you placed on TsunamicTadpole cannot be undone. And once the truth comes to light concerning that incident (Which it will very soon) i wonder what happens to you ?

You were the cause of TsunamicTadpole's restriction, since you reported him, using biased circumstantial evidence.

Thame Cerulian got beaten Senseless by that Unidentified Matukai Adept. What makes his beatdown so funny is the Fact that he couldn't even give a description of the Adept's appearance, Species, Gender, nor the circumstances of what caused the Fight. The only notation he remembered to Put in The Jedi Path: A Manual of Students of the Force, was that he will never again engage a Matukai in close-quarters-combat.

So this leads to 2 possible scenarios, Scenario 1 the Unidentified Matukai's gender is Male, Scenario 2 the Unidentified Matukai's Gender is Female.

Scenario 1. "Thame Cerulian walks into a bar to investigate some suspect activity that involved the sells of illegal weapons & death sticks." "Cerulian's search was not a progressing one, so he decided to ask around to get more intell on the situation, but no luck." "it was then that Cerulian accidentally stepped on a Green boot while turning around, (Unbeknownst to him) a Matukai Adept was standing there." "Cerulian unintentionally disrupted the Meditation stance of the Adept, The Adept became agitated due to what he viewed as Cerulian's carelessness, the Adept wanted answers on why Cerulian disrupted his meditation, causing him to be inconvenienced." "Thame could not give the adept a answer, but rather Thame said he had more pressing matters to attend to, just before the young Jedi could leave the Matukai adept caught a glimpse of the Jedi's Lightsaber underneath his bondaler, and so the Adept stopped the Jedi from leaving." "The Adept requested that the Jedi take a moment to spar him in Hand-to-Hand combat, the Adept stated he was apart of the Matukai Force using tradition, a force Tradition uses the the body to channel the force, stating he was a Adept in the tradition, and that he wanted to get a verification on physical capabilities comparison between the Jedi & Matukai." "Cerulian accepted this request and later engaged the Matukai adept Hand-to-Hand, Thame was defeated and found in a trash compactor 4 hours after the initial fight." .

Logic, use some spacing please. I can't read your (illogical) posts when they blend together like that. Gives headaches.

Easiest way is, when you start a new sentence with quotation marks, hit Enter and drop it down. Easier to read.

Oh, and your stuff has already been disproved. 'nuff said.

You made it clear? You lied about me and falsely claimed I edited and added stuff to articles, when the logs show I didn't.

Accusing someone of something they didn't do is a blatant lie, and you made it clear that that's what you did.



So your argument is I used multiple non-opposed words when saying what they did, therefore I must've edited the articles?

You're a lousy liar, SWL.

One can endure a conflict by using mostly hiding, but of course resisting in the times when one is found. Guerilla fighting, in short. Fight when you have to, hide when you don't.

Oh hey, let's see what one of the books says on them!

Star Wars Jedi Academy Training Manual, page 91, Zeison Sha section: "From the last days of the Old Republic through the Dark Times and even into the early days of the New Republic, they struggle to avoid contact with the Jedi and Darth Vader's hunting squads."

And that's the latest, most up-to-date book on the subject bar none, that's the most recent publication on the Zeison Sha, and it agrees with the first source, the Hero's Guide.




As for the Matukai stuff.... like Pwned said, it's already been disproved. With sources, cites, quotes, the works. You can assert it but that just makes you wrong, like it's been established. Again, we have all the sources. Anything not in the sources is made-up, period.

Originally posted by Pwned
Logic, use some spacing please. I can't read your (illogical) posts when they blend together like that. Gives headaches.

Easiest way is, when you start a new sentence with quotation marks, hit Enter and drop it down. Easier to read.

Oh, and your stuff has already been disproved. 'nuff said. Nothing about the Matukai has been disproved since basically, the whole first message of this thread was a replica of wookieepedia's info on them, nuff siad you and the rest here are arguing over spilled milk.

Originally posted by Q99
You made it clear? You lied about me and falsely claimed I edited and added stuff to articles, when the logs show I didn't.

Accusing someone of something they didn't do is a blatant lie, and you made it clear that that's what you did.



So your argument is I used multiple non-opposed words when saying what they did, therefore I must've edited the articles?

You're a lousy liar, SWL.

One can endure a conflict by using mostly hiding, but of course resisting in the times when one is found. Guerilla fighting, in short. Fight when you have to, hide when you don't.

Oh hey, let's see what one of the books says on them!

Star Wars Jedi Academy Training Manual, page 91, Zeison Sha section: "From the last days of the Old Republic through the Dark Times and even into the early days of the New Republic, they struggle to avoid contact with the Jedi and Darth Vader's hunting squads."

And that's the latest, most up-to-date book on the subject bar none, that's the most recent publication on the Zeison Sha, and it agrees with the first source, the Hero's Guide.




As for the Matukai stuff.... like Pwned said, it's already been disproved. With sources, cites, quotes, the works. You can assert it but that just makes you wrong, like it's been established. Again, we have all the sources. Anything not in the sources is made-up, period. And like i told pwned, the whole first message of this thread was a replica of wookieepedia's info on them, so i don't know how you came to that conclusion. all in all, stop replying if you feel the way you feel.

The Zeison Sha fought off the imperial occupation on their planet, and later some of their initiates left the planet incognito, for fear of the jedi hunters. And then the Zeison Sha Warriors chose not to engage more imperial forces after the battle, but to avoid the conflict if possible. They were smart & powerful. There's nothing left to debate. Most of you here don't like the fact that the Zeison Sha & Matukai are superior orders in specific areas, but they aren't more numberous as a way counterbalancing them apart.

Where exactly did you tell me this? I don't recall it.

Though I do know that your tendency to blow things out of proportions has already been noted.

Sure, the text of the first post is largely direct from Wookiepedia, with little problem there. You then go way beyond Wookiepedia, saying that Jedi can't fight against something who's a whirlwind of martial arts- when the Jedi themselves have moves specifically described as the user moving like a whirlwind-, or that their physical training makes them better than Jedi overall, which wookiepedia does not say, and in fact the Wookiepedia article on the Matukai mentions Jedi conduct physical training as well, and we know quite a few Jedi who go beyond the basic minimum of the Jedi at that and are very powerful martial artists in themselves.


You also in the thread title label them as the 2nd strongest lightside force organization- and we already know who you consider the first- implying that they're stronger than the Jedi, which doesn't hold up either, when they were almost wiped out by an organization largely made up up of former Jedi that was later destroyed by Jedi, in addition to later-era Jedi having direct access to their training.

That's the stuff that's been disproved. You start with the wookiepedia article- good, then you run with it and make a ton of assumptions about outright superiority or that the Jedi have nothing to match what they do (rather than them just being among the high levels, but not the only ones at the high levels, of their specialized area)- bad, and unsupported.



Conversely, you could stop trying to push conclusions beyond the text.

Originally posted by Pwned
Where exactly did you tell me this? I don't recall it.

Though I do know that your tendency to blow things out of proportions has already been noted. Type in Matukai on your search engine, and read their powers and abilities. The first message on this thread is a replica of wookieepedia's article on the Matukai's powers and abilities. Q99 attempted to contradict the first post, which is also contradicting wookieepedia's article on them. This debate was already won when the a Jedi vs Matukai incident was revealed.

Originally posted by Q99
Sure, the text of the first post is largely direct from Wookiepedia, with little problem there. You then go way beyond Wookiepedia, saying that Jedi can't fight against something who's a whirlwind of martial arts- when the Jedi themselves have moves specifically described as the user moving like a whirlwind-, or that their physical training makes them better than Jedi overall, which wookiepedia does not say, and in fact the Wookiepedia article on the Matukai mentions Jedi conduct physical training as well, and we know quite a few Jedi who go beyond the basic minimum of the Jedi at that and are very powerful martial artists in themselves.


You also in the thread title label them as the 2nd strongest lightside force organization- and we already know who you consider the first- implying that they're stronger than the Jedi, which doesn't hold up either, when they were almost wiped out by an organization largely made up up of former Jedi that was later destroyed by Jedi, in addition to later-era Jedi having direct access to their training.

That's the stuff that's been disproved. You start with the wookiepedia article- good, then you run with it and make a ton of assumptions about outright superiority or that the Jedi have nothing to match what they do (rather than them just being among the high levels, but not the only ones at the high levels, of their specialized area)- bad, and unsupported.



Conversely, you could stop trying to push conclusions beyond the text. The Jedi NEVER had access to Matukai training.

You also forget that Matukai adepts are masters of controlling their bodies, inward, and outward. The Matukai adepts were capable of using the Wan-shen with a speed, described as a virtual whirlwind of metal and blades. They were also able to control their bodies in the same maneuverability they demonstrated with their wan-shens, basically they reached the body control and strength of a whirlwind, which in other words is a feat no Jedi replicated or mastered.

The Jedi's only known technique that resembles that of a whirlwind was Jar-Kar, and even then that's only the Jedis defensive Lightsaber maneuvering style. The Jedi have never reached the body maneuverability nor have they achieved the strength of a whirlwind, the Matukai Adepts are on that level.

Yeah imperial inquisitors purged the Matukai adepts through assassination & overwhelming numbers, they are the emperor's hands after all. But most of the Jedi Masters & Knights you deemed more powerful then the Matukai adepts, were killed off by Clone Troopers, Clone Commandos, and Bounty Hunters.

Its funny, because it takes the emperor's hands (Imperial Inquisitors) to purge the Matukai Adepts which are the lowest in number, and it takes Bounty Hunters, Clone Troopers, and Clone Commandos to purge the vast majority of Jedi Masters & Knights you deemed more powerful.

Its already clear that Matukai adepts are the most powerful physically, Looked at what happened to Thame Cerulian. He was quoted to be a powerful Jedi Master, and eventually he fought a Matukai adept. He got beaten senseless by that Unidentified Matukai adept, so bad, that he not only suffered physical damage, but physiological damage as well. In short a Matukai Adept became a Jedi's worst nightmare on the field of battle.

Jedi vs Matukai, Matukai wins, debate closed

Oh lookie what we got here?

The Imperial Inquisitors used Ultrachrome protection and Taozin amulets created a void in the Force so its wearer could not be detected by another Force-sensitive.

Along with the fact that the Matukai were one of the first force orders the empire hunted down. Those Imperial Inquisitors assassinated the Matukai Adepts, never engaging a Matukai Adept in combat. That just proves those inquisitors used common sense and avoided engaging Matukai Adepts in combat. Now its known as a suicide to engage a Matukai Adept in combat. Pitiful Sith.

The only known person to engage a Matukai Adept head-on and survive, was Thame Cerulian. But at the end of that horrific experience, Cerulian had the Sense knocked out of him

After this i don't have any respect for those who call themselfs the "New Sith Order"

i like the fact that i'm still a puppet so how can i stop being a puppet to you what wood it take so you can believe me

Except for, y'know, from the Matukai who joined.

So, lie one.




I forget none of that. It's just you're making the assumption that makes them better than the Jedi in combat, when nothing says they're better in combat overall.

Unfounded assumption 1.




And no, I've specifically noted when the Jedi replicate that and they even have a common name for that move.

Lie two.




Actually it's a highly offensive move, used to increase one's number of attacks aside from defensive benefits.

Jar'Kai isn't a defensive style it's just two-saber fighting, and btw it doesn't even require Jar'kai, it's just easier to do with it.

Lie three.




Lie four.





After being shot in the back usually at extreme numbers differential, in a situation unlike what the Matukai faced. And then they faced the same Inquisitors that were hunting down the Matukai, and yet still quite a few made it completely through the dark times.

Also, Imperial Inqusitors were not Emperor's Hands. The Emperor's Hands were the next step up, and stronger than the Inquisitors. There was one High Inquisitor rumored to also be a Hand, but the likes of Mara Jade and Maarek Stele and Arden Lyn were not Inquisitors.



Quote from the Jedi path: They "are among the best martial artists."

Not 'clearly' or 'overwhelmingly,' or even 'the best,' but rather 'among the best.' Meaning, while they're up there, they have rivals.

Unfounded assumption 2.




He fought a Matukai at the Matukai's own game, he was a Jedi Consular, not a guardian or sentinel, and his own student considered him weak. Nothing says he was even focused on martial arts. So, lie 5, Thame was not indicated to be all that impressive in combat.

And "I wouldn't want to fight one again," is 'psychological damage'? That's worth an Unfounded assumption 3.

This also, noteworthy, says little about how an all-out, not just martial arts battle would do. You know, using force powers and such. On a battle not set up to favor one side over the other.

Nor does it say much at all how a stronger Jedi would do, and there are Jedi much stronger than Thame.



--
Face it, this?



Is nothing but wishful thinking, taking any mention of ability as if it was a statement of clear superiority.

All that's said is the Matukai are among the best in a specific area and that one beat a middling master in their own speciality. Well, duh.

You drawing overall superiority from that is just a collection of lies and unfounded exaggerations bundled up in your own head.



Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Oh lookie what we got here?

The Imperial Inquisitors used Ultrachrome protection and Taozin amulets created a void in the Force so its wearer could not be detected by another Force-sensitive.

Along with the fact that the Matukai were one of the first force orders the empire hunted down.

Yea, after the public execution of the Jedi. They were one of the early ones, not the first, following an incredibly public and obvious spectacle.

Notably, the Imperial Inquisition was not even yet founded when Order 66 went down, and was largely made up of former Jedi turned after the order. Meaning, while high on the list, they likely had at *least* months of warning.




Never, huh? I mean, even with hiding themselves in the force, ambushing over 50 of them seems absurd, especially when they operated in pairs and trios. Not a single one was able to put up their guard after their buddy died?

Especially because there were Jedi able to fight off the Inquisition, and even given some were caught by surprise, the Matukai is a scattered order, hardly all of them would fall before any prepared.


Jedi still accomplished with the Matukai didn't here, and you're still making unfounded assumptions here... ones that actually make the Matukai look pretty poor.

Unfounded assumption 3.



Nope, nothing says it's suicidal, and the Imperial Inquisition's methods have been seen often, they regularly take their targets on in combat. This is worth Lie 6 and
Unfounded assumption 4.

Heck, the RPG gives Inquisitors better combat stats!



The only named to engage a Matukai *period*, mind you, and he was a Jedi Consular, the least-combat focused type of Jedi, and his own future student considered him weak.

Also, both Vong and Vong supporters have killed Matukai, and Vong tend to fight head on, so to say Thame is the 'only known' is wrong. We know other people have, we just don't know their names. Lie 7.



That seems completely unrelated to anything, really?

Q99 is right there, Logic. So please GTFO.

Originally posted by Q99
Except for, y'know, from the Matukai who joined.

So, lie one.




I forget none of that. It's just you're making the assumption that makes them better than the Jedi in combat, when nothing says they're better in combat overall.

Unfounded assumption 1.




And no, I've specifically noted when the Jedi replicate that and they even have a common name for that move.

Lie two.




Actually it's a highly offensive move, used to increase one's number of attacks aside from defensive benefits.

Jar'Kai isn't a defensive style it's just two-saber fighting, and btw it doesn't even require Jar'kai, it's just easier to do with it.

Lie three.




Lie four.





After being shot in the back usually at extreme numbers differential, in a situation unlike what the Matukai faced. And then they faced the same Inquisitors that were hunting down the Matukai, and yet still quite a few made it completely through the dark times.

Also, Imperial Inqusitors were not Emperor's Hands. The Emperor's Hands were the next step up, and stronger than the Inquisitors. There was one High Inquisitor rumored to also be a Hand, but the likes of Mara Jade and Maarek Stele and Arden Lyn were not Inquisitors.



Quote from the Jedi path: They "are among the best martial artists."

Not 'clearly' or 'overwhelmingly,' or even 'the best,' but rather 'among the best.' Meaning, while they're up there, they have rivals.

Unfounded assumption 2.




He fought a Matukai at the Matukai's own game, he was a Jedi Consular, not a guardian or sentinel, and his own student considered him weak. Nothing says he was even focused on martial arts. So, lie 5, Thame was not indicated to be all that impressive in combat.

And "I wouldn't want to fight one again," is 'psychological damage'? That's worth an Unfounded assumption 3.

This also, noteworthy, says little about how an all-out, not just martial arts battle would do. You know, using force powers and such. On a battle not set up to favor one side over the other.

Nor does it say much at all how a stronger Jedi would do, and there are Jedi much stronger than Thame.



--
Face it, this?



Is nothing but wishful thinking, taking any mention of ability as if it was a statement of clear superiority.

All that's said is the Matukai are among the best in a specific area and that one beat a middling master in their own speciality. Well, duh.

You drawing overall superiority from that is just a collection of lies and unfounded exaggerations bundled up in your own head.





Yea, after the public execution of the Jedi. They were one of the early ones, not the first, following an incredibly public and obvious spectacle.

Notably, the Imperial Inquisition was not even yet founded when Order 66 went down, and was largely made up of former Jedi turned after the order. Meaning, while high on the list, they likely had at *least* months of warning.




Never, huh? I mean, even with hiding themselves in the force, ambushing over 50 of them seems absurd, especially when they operated in pairs and trios. Not a single one was able to put up their guard after their buddy died?

Especially because there were Jedi able to fight off the Inquisition, and even given some were caught by surprise, the Matukai is a scattered order, hardly all of them would fall before any prepared.


Jedi still accomplished with the Matukai didn't here, and you're still making unfounded assumptions here... ones that actually make the Matukai look pretty poor.

Unfounded assumption 3.



Nope, nothing says it's suicidal, and the Imperial Inquisition's methods have been seen often, they regularly take their targets on in combat. This is worth Lie 6 and
Unfounded assumption 4.

Heck, the RPG gives Inquisitors better combat stats!



The only named to engage a Matukai *period*, mind you, and he was a Jedi Consular, the least-combat focused type of Jedi, and his own future student considered him weak.

Also, both Vong and Vong supporters have killed Matukai, and Vong tend to fight head on, so to say Thame is the 'only known' is wrong. We know other people have, we just don't know their names. Lie 7.



That seems completely unrelated to anything, really? The Matukai who joined Luke Skywalker's jedi praxeum were Matukai Apprentices, Matukai who just begun their training in the Matukai philosophy. You should've listened to Frozoner while you had the chance and ignore me. But now lets bring the actuality in differentiation between Jedi and Matukai.


The Jedi have never reached the Strength and Body Maneuverability of a whirlwind, the Matukai have.
The Jedi have never developed a technique that immediately refreshes your spirit, giving feats of strength and power exceeding what the body was originally capable of, thus becoming stronger then what the body once was before being fatigued, the Matukai Done this.
The Jedi have never developed a physically immunity to all poisons & illnesses, the Matukai have. The Jedi reached the body level to being resistant to poisons, not being immune to them.
The Jedi have never reached the speed of a helicopter propeller with their Melee weapons, being viewed as a virtual whirlwind of Metal and blades, the Matukai have.
The Jedi had the Lightsaber style known as Jar-kar. That Lightsaber style was known as a brilliant whirlwind. The brilliant lightsaber whirlwind brilliant Jar-Kar has been defined as an almost vertical column of rapidly swung lightsabers, not reaching the speed of a actual whirlwind (Virtual Whirlwind) but something of similarity (Briliant whirlwind)

The dark side organization known as Inquisitorius, was under direct control of Darth Vader. This organizations consisted of the highest ranking Dark Side Adepts, outranking the emporer's hands, Prophets of the Dark Side. Those inquisitors used lightsabers, and They used Ultrachrome protection and Taozin amulets created a void in the Force so its wearer could not be detected by another Force-sensitive. Those 3 things is what they used to hunt all force sensitives. those 3 items were essential in purging the Matukai Adepts.

To put it simple, the inquisitorius were the organization that assassinated the Matukai adepts.

Both Yuuzhan Vong and their supporters killed several Matukai apprentices. Experienced Matukai Adepts were gone at that time, and the lesser experienced adepts were gone at that time.

I never said the Matukai were the first, but ONE of the first force orders that suffered. the Matukai adepts were largely caught off guard, being assassinated in the process.

Once again the RPG hero's guide was where the Zeison Sha & Matukai were first brought into canon, in Star Wars time thats 4,000 BBY. Using the 1st Generation Matukai Adept prestige tradition in comparison to Imperial inquisitors, is pathetic. Same goes for trying to Base the first generation Zeison Sha in comparison to other orders.

Common Sense would have told you the Zeison Sha are the most powerful Light Side order. Since they are stronger then most, or even all when it comes to Mind Prowers & Prowess. The Mind is what controls it all. It controls The Physical and spiritual manifestation.

Common Sense would have told you the Matukai are the 2nd most powerful Light Side Order.

Do you need the Copy & pasted quotes on the Matukai's physical superiority, and Zeison Sha's unmatched telekinetic Might to Destroy even more of your arguments then what has already been trashed ?

Originally posted by Pwned
Q99 is right there, Logic. So please GTFO. Keep your insignificant opinions to yourself.

I find it funny you call anything contradicting you either insignificant or a lie.

So how about this: Give me page numbers for whatever you are citing. Do NOT use wookieepedia. If your lies have truth (they do not, which is why they are lies) then I will be the first to support you.


Maybe he is just a SW sock of Quan? Or at least related to him.

Originally posted by Pwned
I find it funny you call anything contradicting you either insignificant or a lie.

So how about this: Give me page numbers for whatever you are citing. Do NOT use wookieepedia. If your lies have truth (they do not, which is why they are lies) then I will be the first to support you.


Maybe he is just a SW sock of Quan? Or at least related to him. I don't have to give you anything, Q99's lie affected my friend and got him restricted, and you were the one accusing me of something i didn't do with no fact based reasons on why. Q99's only defense to this is, what i stated about him/her previously. when i said he tampered with the articles. I told him/her before that what i said could've been a mistake. But at least my mistake didn't affect anyone, or get anyone restricted. I don't have to give a dam thing. If anyone needs to do something Q99 does, for one give me and my friend Tadpol a apology.

You keep on saying stuff that other sources indicate is wrong, and even your own sources don't even say many of your claims.

That's called a lie.



I have more sources than that, like I've said. The Hero's Guide and the Jedi Training Manual both have large sections on them.

You know, if you were really interested in them instead of just trying to make your own version of them, upon hearing that someone has more sources you could've asked more about their powers and abilities instead of just running on your own assumptions.



Key word, AMONG. They aren't the only ones at that level, just some of the ones at that level.



Among the most, and which some Jedi also had.

See, this is you just assuming "Because they have a power, that must mean the Jedi don't!", when other sources indicate the Jedi do too.

They have the ability, but the idea that it makes them better, that the Jedi don't have that or other, different, equally powerful abilities is just baseless assumptions.



Actually, 1 Nothing says that the Matukai can do so without the force. They even say, in the paragraphs you posted right above, "and enjoyed greatly increased balance and stamina due to their connection to the Force" and "Because of this stamina, Matukai were capable of executing physical feats such as tumbling, running, leaping, and complex martial sequences with an astonishing speed described as a "whirlwind""

They specifically need the connection of the force to get the stats needed to do the whirlwind, according to your own sources.


And 2, if the Jedi can do equal or better, who cares? That means when the Jedi do have a connection of the force, they can do so too, and, well, the Jedi always have a connection to the force unless there's a Ysalamiri around or they've been hit with the sever force ability.

If the Jedi can use the force to match them in that, and the Jedi also have more ability in stuff like TK and foresight, in what way are the Jedi weaker?


Even your own sources do not agree with your conclusions.

Thus repulsed, Bodo Baas realized the Matukai had no interest in allying with the Jedi, but recommended to his superiors that they be allowed to exist autonomously, as most of their members were individuals who would not have been picked for Jedi training in the first place.

There is your entire answer Logic. They were too weak to be Jedi, so they became Matukai.

Originally posted by Q99
You keep on saying stuff that other sources indicate is wrong, and even your own sources don't even say many of your claims.

That's called a lie.



I have more sources than that, like I've said. The Hero's Guide and the Jedi Training Manual both have large sections on them.

You know, if you were really interested in them instead of just trying to make your own version of them, upon hearing that someone has more sources you could've asked more about their powers and abilities instead of just running on your own assumptions.



Key word, AMONG. They aren't the only ones at that level, just some of the ones at that level.



Among the most, and which some Jedi also had.

See, this is you just assuming "Because they have a power, that must mean the Jedi don't!", when other sources indicate the Jedi do too.

They have the ability, but the idea that it makes them better, that the Jedi don't have that or other, different, equally powerful abilities is just baseless assumptions.



Actually, 1 Nothing says that the Matukai can do so without the force. They even say, in the paragraphs you posted right above, "and enjoyed greatly increased balance and stamina due to their connection to the Force" and "Because of this stamina, Matukai were capable of executing physical feats such as tumbling, running, leaping, and complex martial sequences with an astonishing speed described as a "whirlwind""

They specifically need the connection of the force to get the stats needed to do the whirlwind, according to your own sources.


And 2, if the Jedi can do equal or better, who cares? That means when the Jedi do have a connection of the force, they can do so too, and, well, the Jedi always have a connection to the force unless there's a Ysalamiri around or they've been hit with the sever force ability.

If the Jedi can use the force to match them in that, and the Jedi also have more ability in stuff like TK and foresight, in what way are the Jedi weaker?


Even your own sources do not agree with your conclusions. Yes the Matukai can use their stamina without the force. It was said in the paragraph above, that because of the fact Matukai feed off of the force to strengthen their bodies, they found a far more significant source of strength. And that far more significant source of strength is that Tireless energy they use to immediately refresh their spirits, while also gaining feats of Strength and Power exceeding what their bodies are capable of, after every refreshment, thus they gain in strength and power every time they refresh themselfs after being fatigued.

The Aing Tii already proved, "One does not need to be force sensitive to manipulate its energies" The Aing Tii were quoted to have Force wielding control not even mastered by the most powerful Sith & Jedi.

So you can scream "The jedi can do this, the jedi can do that" but nothing changes the Fact that there are several more Orders more powerful then the Jedi. Matukai are the Most powerful Physically. The Zeison Sha are the most powerful Telekinetically. The Aing Tii are the Most poweful Spiritually.

Originally posted by Pwned
Thus repulsed, Bodo Baas realized the Matukai had no interest in allying with the Jedi, but recommended to his superiors that they be allowed to exist autonomously, as most of their members were individuals who would not have been picked for Jedi training in the first place.

There is your entire answer Logic. They were too weak to be Jedi, so they became Matukai. WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

In 580 BBY. Bodo Baas had learned of a Matukai Master Adept by the name Mendor Typhoons, and also his 2 apprentices. They discovered Mendor Typhoons and His 2 apprentices wiped out a large group of pirates on their own near Ord Radama. Bodo Baas set up the meeting between the Jedi Order and Matukai. Bodo was very optimistic upon entering the conversation and attempted to Bring the Matukai in the order's fold. Mendor Typhoons Responded in comedic laughter, saying how Matukai Adepts found Jedi training elitist and ineffectual. Mendor even went so far as to say, he could train the Jedi's padawans better then the Jedi Masters on Coruscant, thus the Matukai did not entertain any idea of Unification, and the Jedi were repulsed.

Mendor Typhoons contradicts Q99's little theory. I wonder if Q99 will still cling on to his theory of Matukai Adepts joining Luke Skywalker's Jedi praxeum. It was already said Loud and clear That Matukai Adepts found Jedi training elitist and ineffectual. So why would any Matukai Adepts join Luke Skywalker's Jedi Praxeum(:?

The Jedi afterwards allowed the Matukai to exist independently since none of them fell to the Dark Side. It was then Bodo Baas's Jedi pride allowed him to state, that the Matukai's members were too old and wouldn't have been picked for Jedi training in the first place.

I can understand why Mendor Typhoons stated he can do a better job at training the Jedi's padawans. He earned his Named due to his prowess, along with the Fact he's the only known Typhoon Blur of metal and blades, as well as limbs and movement.

Ah hem, "as to develop an otherwise negligible connection to the Force into a far more significant source of strength."


"and enjoyed greatly increased balance and stamina due to their connection to the Force"

They did not find a different source of strength, they developed a weak source of strength into a significant one, and specifically rely on their connection to do so. They don't use or know the Aing Tii method (which only the Aing Tii seem to know).

This is your own sources saying this, they repeatedly reiterate that the Matukai are using the force and in fact need this connection to do their best stuff.

Lie 1.



You're outright told that they joined and have mentioned it yourself several times and now you're doubting it happened? Lie 2.

As for the reasons, because they found his school more open and less elitist.

"Later, with the birth of the New Jedi Order, some of the remaining Matukai chose to join the new Jedi Praxeum organized by Jedi Master Luke Skywalker, deeming it less strict than the previous incarnation of the Jedi Order, and those that did distinguished themselves with a facial tattoo." (Wookieepedia)

And here's the Hero's Guide:

"Some of these Matukai chose to join Luke Skywalker's Jedi Academy when the call went out for prospective students. Skywalker's academy had less stringent standards for admission than the old Jedi council, and his eagerness to learn more about the force meant he was more open to new ideas."

It seems 'elitist' was the real bone of contention from the start, and when the Jedi were willing to look at their ideas openly and teach at the same time, that was cool with them. It also indicates Jedi have access to the Matukai's knowledge.


Oh yea, and in case you're going to say they lost their knowledge or other excuse, it also says: "Much like the Jedi, though, the few remaining Matukai were able to preserve their force tradition."




Jedi who do so would, of course, be blurs of lightsaber and limbs rather than metal.


"He lacks entirely the flash, the pure bold elan of an Anakin Skywalker; there is no- where in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku, and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda can become."-ROTS Novel

Let me reiterate that nothing at any point says a Matukai's top speed is above that of a strong Jedi.

Additionally? The guy was just named Typhoons, he was never actually described as moving as fast as a typhoon nor of being named after being able to do so at any point. It was just his name!

So Lie 3 and unfounded assumption 1.


(Switching over to weather phenomena for a moment, typhoons are not faster than whirlwinds, btw)

Originally posted by Q99
Ah hem, "as to develop an otherwise negligible connection to the Force into a far more significant source of strength."


"and enjoyed greatly increased balance and stamina due to their connection to the Force"

They did not find a different source of strength, they developed a weak source of strength into a significant one, and specifically rely on their connection to do so. They don't use or know the Aing Tii method (which only the Aing Tii seem to know).

This is your own sources saying this, they repeatedly reiterate that the Matukai are using the force and in fact need this connection to do their best stuff.

Lie 1.



You're outright told that they joined and have mentioned it yourself several times and now you're doubting it happened? Lie 2.

As for the reasons, because they found his school more open and less elitist.

"Later, with the birth of the New Jedi Order, some of the remaining Matukai chose to join the new Jedi Praxeum organized by Jedi Master Luke Skywalker, deeming it less strict than the previous incarnation of the Jedi Order, and those that did distinguished themselves with a facial tattoo." (Wookieepedia)

And here's the Hero's Guide:

"Some of these Matukai chose to join Luke Skywalker's Jedi Academy when the call went out for prospective students. Skywalker's academy had less stringent standards for admission than the old Jedi council, and his eagerness to learn more about the force meant he was more open to new ideas."

It seems 'elitist' was the real bone of contention from the start, and when the Jedi were willing to look at their ideas openly and teach at the same time, that was cool with them. It also indicates Jedi have access to the Matukai's knowledge.


Oh yea, and in case you're going to say they lost their knowledge or other excuse, it also says: "Much like the Jedi, though, the few remaining Matukai were able to preserve their force tradition."




Jedi who do so would, of course, be blurs of lightsaber and limbs rather than metal.


"He lacks entirely the flash, the pure bold elan of an Anakin Skywalker; there is no- where in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku, and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda can become."-ROTS Novel

Let me reiterate that nothing at any point says a Matukai's top speed is above that of a strong Jedi.

Additionally? The guy was just named Typhoons, he was never actually described as moving as fast as a typhoon nor of being named after being able to do so at any point. It was just his name!

So Lie 3 and unfounded assumption 1.


(Switching over to weather phenomena for a moment, typhoons are not faster than whirlwinds, btw) I outright said Matukai Apprentices joined Luke Skywalker's jedi praxeum, not Matukai Adepts. The Far More significant source of strength is that Tireless energy they use to continually become more powerful Physically. Because of their rigorous training and their connection to the Force, they found a far more significant source of Strength.

Mendor Typhoons earned his name due to his prowess. The Matukai Tradition and the Gand Warrior Tradition have one similariy, they both name their warriors based on their achievements. Mendor Typhoons is a Typhoon blur of metal and blades, and limbs and move. I wasn't talking about Speed concerning a Typhoon, but the immense strength of one. Keep going on about your Jedi fanboyism, and the bow jocking followers you are gaining .

I have read the Matukai's Powers & Abilities concerning their physical capabilities. Why are all of you even arguing with Star Wars Logic? it just shows you guys are big Jedi fans.

And I outright said it didn't say only apprentices, it just said Matukai. And it's also apparently a continuing relationship.



Nope, it said that it developed their weak connection of the force to make it more significant. It says nothing about finding another source of power.

Again, "as to develop an otherwise negligible connection to the Force into a far more significant source of strength."

"and enjoyed greatly increased balance and stamina due to their connection to the Force"

That's what your own sources say. None of them mention another source of strength.

So lie and unsupported assumption.



Unsupported assumption. There is no background on Mendor Typhoons' name in Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force.

You can't just make stuff up, SWL.



Nope, no source on the Matukai says anything of the sort. It's not in what you posted, it's not on wookiepedia, and it's not in any of the books.


You accuse others of fanboyism and you can only support the claim based on made-up, lies, and arguments directly contracted by the sources you yourself post.





Because he's posting stuff that directly contradicts his own points? Because the books contradict his points? Because he repeatedly insists he's right on 'facts' that are in precisely no canon sources and are thus fanfics?

I mean, really, StarWarsLogic, this is either an incredibly obvious sock or you bring your friends over to parrot your exact argument. Who's going to be fooled by "Oh I just thought I'd come in and even though SWL's arguments aren't backed by any source he can post and contradicted by many posted stuff, he's totally right and I don't see why you're arguing and I'm going to use the same intended-insults he does. Also I use his writing style."?

We aren't dumb, SWL, we have eyes.


.... hmm, although the assumption that we don't have eyes capable of noticing writing does explain a lot about your arguments.

Of course there is the whole 'pathological lier' hypothesis I had earlier, where you actually have a condition that makes it hard to tell the truth and when pressed you'll just double-down repeatedly no matter how flimsy and obviously made-up your arguments are.

Originally posted by Q99
And I outright said it didn't say only apprentices, it just said Matukai. And it's also apparently a continuing relationship.



Nope, it said that it developed their weak connection of the force to make it more significant. It says nothing about finding another source of power.

Again, "as to develop an otherwise negligible connection to the Force into a far more significant source of strength."

"and enjoyed greatly increased balance and stamina due to their connection to the Force"

That's what your own sources say. None of them mention another source of strength.

So lie and unsupported assumption.



Unsupported assumption. There is no background on Mendor Typhoons' name in Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force.

You can't just make stuff up, SWL.



Nope, no source on the Matukai says anything of the sort. It's not in what you posted, it's not on wookiepedia, and it's not in any of the books.


You accuse others of fanboyism and you can only support the claim based on made-up, lies, and arguments directly contracted by the sources you yourself post.





Because he's posting stuff that directly contradicts his own points? Because the books contradict his points? Because he repeatedly insists he's right on 'facts' that are in precisely no canon sources and are thus fanfics?

I mean, really, StarWarsLogic, this is either an incredibly obvious sock or you bring your friends over to parrot your exact argument. Who's going to be fooled by "Oh I just thought I'd come in and even though SWL's arguments aren't backed by any source he can post and contradicted by many posted stuff, he's totally right and I don't see why you're arguing and I'm going to use the same intended-insults he does. Also I use his writing style."?

We aren't dumb, SWL, we have eyes.


.... hmm, although the assumption that we don't have eyes capable of noticing writing does explain a lot about your arguments.

Of course there is the whole 'pathological lier' hypothesis I had earlier, where you actually have a condition that makes it hard to tell the truth and when pressed you'll just double-down repeatedly no matter how flimsy and obviously made-up your arguments are. Oh you're telling me that i contradicted myself? That's a hypocritical statement, because it was clear you contradicted yourself 10 dam times since you attempted to debate me. And yet you tried to claim i stated something, when i didn't, "like claiming i stated matukai adepts joined luke's praxeum this whole time, when in actuality Matukai apprentices joined." Since Matukai adepts frowned upon Jedi training, that only leaves one Rank left to consider praxeums, (Matukai Apprentices)" Its a little something called COMMON S e n s e

Yeah you have eyes, but you use them far more then your actual sense.

Yeah you aren't dumb, you're a self willingly ignorant individual.

The Matukai developed a far more significant source of strength due to their connection to the force. The Matukai were the only known order that can build up force sensitivity in someone who isn't gifted with force sensitivity. That and the Fact there hasn't been a single Matukai that Fell to the Dark Side since its founding in 4,000 BBY.

Oh so now you're calling him me? thats a big mistake, he's not the Person that takes kindly to being accused of something .

Nope im not a lier. You're just a egotistical Jedi fan boy/girl, and a geek one at that, since you were willing to go so far in attempt to prove your little theory, as to Purchase the Hero's guide, (Which was 39,99$ on Amazon) when you could have just viewed the guide on Wikidot.

But i will tell you this. if you accuse me of something one more time and it affects someone again, i will remove you. Thats your finale WARNING.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

In 580 BBY. Bodo Baas had learned of a Matukai Master Adept by the name Mendor Typhoons, and also his 2 apprentices. They discovered Mendor Typhoons and His 2 apprentices wiped out a large group of pirates on their own near Ord Radama. Bodo Baas set up the meeting between the Jedi Order and Matukai. Bodo was very optimistic upon entering the conversation and attempted to Bring the Matukai in the order's fold. Mendor Typhoons Responded in comedic laughter, saying how Matukai Adepts found Jedi training elitist and ineffectual. Mendor even went so far as to say, he could train the Jedi's padawans better then the Jedi Masters on Coruscant, thus the Matukai did not entertain any idea of Unification, and the Jedi were repulsed.

Mendor Typhoons contradicts Q99's little theory. I wonder if Q99 will still cling on to his theory of Matukai Adepts joining Luke Skywalker's Jedi praxeum. It was already said Loud and clear That Matukai Adepts found Jedi training elitist and ineffectual. So why would any Matukai Adepts join Luke Skywalker's Jedi Praxeum(:?

The Jedi afterwards allowed the Matukai to exist independently since none of them fell to the Dark Side. It was then Bodo Baas's Jedi pride allowed him to state, that the Matukai's members were too old and wouldn't have been picked for Jedi training in the first place.

I can understand why Mendor Typhoons stated he can do a better job at training the Jedi's padawans. He earned his Named due to his prowess, along with the Fact he's the only known Typhoon Blur of metal and blades, as well as limbs and movement.
Later, with the birth of the New Jedi Order, some of the remaining Matukai chose to join the new Jedi Praxeum organized by Jedi Master Luke Skywalker, deeming it less strict than the previous incarnation of the Jedi Order, and those that did distinguished themselves with a facial tattoo.

Since the Jedi Order was large in number, they felt secure enough to allow other Force-using organizations to exist independently, provided that the other Force-using groups did not fall to the dark side

Thus repulsed, Bodo Baas realized the Matukai had no interest in allying with the Jedi, but recommended to his superiors that they be allowed to exist autonomously, as most of their members were individuals who would not have been picked for Jedi training in the first place.

All of this contradicts what you have said. Oh, by the way, it's all Copy+Pasted from Wookieepedia.

So that's what I am talking about. The very article you want to use is being brought up to show you your own lies. Oh, and Typhoons was the only one who found Jedi training to be, "elitist and ineffectual"

They were too weak to be Jedi, yet you say they are better? XD

I find your lack of honesty quite humorous. So quit with your bullshit and get off the boards or be a normal human being that can realize when their lies have been caught.

Oh, and it wasn't a, "large group of pirates"
It was, "several pirates" Meaning around 4. A, "master of physical capabilities" and his 2 apprentices, or in other words, 3 Force sensitives (as weak as they were) beat 4 non-Force sensitives.

Bane led his squad through the New Sith Wars almsot unscathed, and sniped a dozen people within seconds while blind. You don't trumpet him, do you? Thought so.

Just because none were actually straight out mentioned to have not fallen does NOT mean that none did. That is assuming, and that makes you look like an ass.

Also, how can you remove him? Simple, you can't. You are not a moderator. So instead of making obviously empty threats, go and learn what you want to say before you ignorantly spout it out.
And yes, you are a liar.

Any skilled group of force-sensitive warriors should be able to handle a large group of pirates anyway.

Jedi are known to occasionally handle large groups of Sith or other force users.



Nope, back in the day the Matukai wouldn't let *any* of their apprentices learn from the Jedi because they viewed them as elitist.

Once the Jedi no longer were elitist, they have no reason for adepts to stay away either.

If the Matukai adepts didn't like the Jedi, why the heck would they let their students join? That's common sense.

Also, don't forget they continued to train in the Matukai way even after becoming Jedi, they didn't cease being Matukai. So you'd still have fully trained members at the end of the day.





It's up to 40? I got mine for like, 12 ^^ And actually a couple unrelated to this conversation too, like the New Jedi Order one. I like having physical books and this reminded me they exist to pick up (though I am disappointed the KotoR is, like, crazy expensive). And excuse me for not finding being called a SW geek much of an insult on a SW forum.

Also, have you noticed that I haven't been raving about the Jedi? That I, in fact, have mostly just been noting they have similar ideas? I just haven't been agreeing with you, that every order you see is 'obviously superior'. Because, well, nothing says they're superior! You may try and justify to yourself that the only reason someone'd not agree with you is being a fangirl or boy, but that's just an excuse you're making for us looking at the facts and finding out you're wrong.

You are a liar.

You've been lying a lot, and whether or not you like that the heros guide proves my point, it does prove my point, as does, like Pwned mentioned, the wookiepedia article you mentioned.

Your points are regularly contradicted even before the material you yourself post. Why is it so hard to read the sources instead of making stuff up and insisting your stuff is right and not the actual sources that determines what's right?

Originally posted by Q99
And I outright said it didn't say only apprentices, it just said Matukai. And it's also apparently a continuing relationship.



Nope, it said that it developed their weak connection of the force to make it more significant. It says nothing about finding another source of power.

Again, "as to develop an otherwise negligible connection to the Force into a far more significant source of strength."

"and enjoyed greatly increased balance and stamina due to their connection to the Force"

That's what your own sources say. None of them mention another source of strength.

So lie and unsupported assumption.



Unsupported assumption. There is no background on Mendor Typhoons' name in Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force.

You can't just make stuff up, SWL.



Nope, no source on the Matukai says anything of the sort. It's not in what you posted, it's not on wookiepedia, and it's not in any of the books.


You accuse others of fanboyism and you can only support the claim based on made-up, lies, and arguments directly contracted by the sources you yourself post.





Because he's posting stuff that directly contradicts his own points? Because the books contradict his points? Because he repeatedly insists he's right on 'facts' that are in precisely no canon sources and are thus fanfics?

I mean, really, StarWarsLogic, this is either an incredibly obvious sock or you bring your friends over to parrot your exact argument. Who's going to be fooled by "Oh I just thought I'd come in and even though SWL's arguments aren't backed by any source he can post and contradicted by many posted stuff, he's totally right and I don't see why you're arguing and I'm going to use the same intended-insults he does. Also I use his writing style."?

We aren't dumb, SWL, we have eyes.


.... hmm, although the assumption that we don't have eyes capable of noticing writing does explain a lot about your arguments.

Of course there is the whole 'pathological lier' hypothesis I had earlier, where you actually have a condition that makes it hard to tell the truth and when pressed you'll just double-down repeatedly no matter how flimsy and obviously made-up your arguments are.

Just a simple question... Do you have a life? You're sitting here arguing with everything he says. I see your a original star wars kind of person. The fact of the matter is the Jedi are no longer the strongest. So I got friendly advice for you... You ready? Here it is... Get a life.., Get a girl... Maybe even a job! Because this sitting on your ass debating on star wars is NOT a life!

Do you even realize what you are doing? You get 1 life in this world and you're wasting it on a forum arguing with people because you think your right? You have 1 life, Only 1. How about you make that life something your friends and family WON'T be disappointed in.

I rest my case.

Originally posted by Hacker
Just a simple question... Do you have a life? You're sitting here arguing with everything he says.

Does he? I mean he posts all this stuff too and does so first, and responds to others as well, so by extension you're attacking him at least as much as you are me.

And I've already mentioned I do get some fun out of arguing.

Heck, what about you? You're either just covering for him, or somehow though reading through a long thread of SWL being shot down was worth your time without even the fun of participating in it!



Yea, The Ones are.

Isn't it funny that you and him both are obsessed with trying to prove me and Pwned are 'Jedi fangirls/boys' in order to deflect from losing the argument?

The Matukai are below the Imperial Inquisition, who're below the Sith, who're around equal with the Jedi (as demonstatred in the many times they've fought). And in fact they've had quite a few members join the Jedi.





Have, am, have. Yay!



Your case is weak and I don't care, I'm having fun


Also considering the odds are high that either you are SWL or one of his friends shilling for him, you look reeeeeally bad yourself. Coming in and making an account on a forum just to attack people SWL logic doesn't like? Tisk tisk!

Originally posted by Q99
Does he? I mean he posts all this stuff too and does so first, and responds to others as well, so by extension you're attacking him at least as much as you are me.

And I've already mentioned I do get some fun out of arguing.

Heck, what about you? You're either just covering for him, or somehow though reading through a long thread of SWL being shot down was worth your time without even the fun of participating in it!


Isn't it funny that you and him both are obsessed with trying to prove me and Pwned are 'Jedi fangirls/boys' in order to deflect from losing the argument?

The Matukai are below the Imperial Inquisition, who're below the Sith, who're around equal with the Jedi (as demonstatred in the many times they've fought). And in fact they've had quite a few members join the Jedi.





Have, am, have. Yay!



Your case is weak and I don't care, I'm having fun


Also considering the odds are high that either you are SWL or one of his friends shilling for him, you look reeeeeally bad yourself. Coming in and making an account on a forum just to attack people SWL logic doesn't like? Tisk tisk!

You just admitted to me you have no life. "I'm having fun ". If you call this fun... You live a sad life my friend.

Eh, I have fun doing this. Granted my life has taken a shitty turn recently and I need a way to amuse myself, but still. I actually laugh at most of the posts.


Gosh, did you hear about that Q99 guy? He is such a Star Wars nerd!
Like ohmygawsh, I know. That is so nerdy.

Originally posted by Pwned
Eh, I have fun doing this. Granted my life has taken a shitty turn recently and I need a way to amuse myself, but still. I actually laugh at most of the posts.


Gosh, did you hear about that Q99 guy? He is such a Star Wars nerd!
Like ohmygawsh, I know. That is so nerdy.

Hah, yea, it's always funny when people think trying to make fun of people for enjoying themselves is a stinging insult.

Originally posted by Q99
Hah, yea, it's always funny when people think trying to make fun of people for enjoying themselves is a stinging insult. If it wasn't for the fact he uses punctuation and grammar, I would think he was just Logic trying to insult us

Though I agree. It is quite funny.




And now, we break to dancing bananas:

Originally posted by Pwned
Later, with the birth of the New Jedi Order, some of the remaining Matukai chose to join the new Jedi Praxeum organized by Jedi Master Luke Skywalker, deeming it less strict than the previous incarnation of the Jedi Order, and those that did distinguished themselves with a facial tattoo.

Since the Jedi Order was large in number, they felt secure enough to allow other Force-using organizations to exist independently, provided that the other Force-using groups did not fall to the dark side

Thus repulsed, Bodo Baas realized the Matukai had no interest in allying with the Jedi, but recommended to his superiors that they be allowed to exist autonomously, as most of their members were individuals who would not have been picked for Jedi training in the first place.

All of this contradicts what you have said. Oh, by the way, it's all Copy+Pasted from Wookieepedia.

So that's what I am talking about. The very article you want to use is being brought up to show you your own lies. Oh, and Typhoons was the only one who found Jedi training to be, "elitist and ineffectual"

They were too weak to be Jedi, yet you say they are better? XD

I find your lack of honesty quite humorous. So quit with your bullshit and get off the boards or be a normal human being that can realize when their lies have been caught.

Oh, and it wasn't a, "large group of pirates"
It was, "several pirates" Meaning around 4. A, "master of physical capabilities" and his 2 apprentices, or in other words, 3 Force sensitives (as weak as they were) beat 4 non-Force sensitives.

Bane led his squad through the New Sith Wars almsot unscathed, and sniped a dozen people within seconds while blind. You don't trumpet him, do you? Thought so.

Just because none were actually straight out mentioned to have not fallen does NOT mean that none did. That is assuming, and that makes you look like an ass.

Also, how can you remove him? Simple, you can't. You are not a moderator. So instead of making obviously empty threats, go and learn what you want to say before you ignorantly spout it out.
And yes, you are a liar. Yeah some of the remaining Matukai apprentices were allowed to joined Luke skywalker's jedi praxeum, since the Matukai Adepts deemed it less elitist.

The Matukai weren't weak even in the littlest sense. They were able to Build up force sensitivity in individuals who weren't force sensitive, using the methods of meditative martial arts & exercise.

No Matukai fell to the Dark Side since its founding in 4,000 BBY. If any did fall, they would have referenced to some of their members falling to the Dark side throughout their history, like the Zeison Sha did.

This lie of yours just costed you something. Mendor Typhoons wasn't the only one who found Jedi training elitist and ineffectual. Mendor Typhoons said in specific that, Matukai Warriors (Matukai Adepts) found Jedi training elitist (Strict) and ineffectual (Ineffective).

The Matukai Adepts that were around during Luke Skywalker's time deemed his praxeum less strict then Bodo Baas's, nothing changed on their views concerning ineffective Jedi training. So thus Matukai Adepts let some of their remaining apprentices join skywalker's jedi praxeum, and the apprentices that did join distinguished themself's with a facial tattoo. Your lies just lost you this debate.

Its absurd how people these days hang on every word.

Zeison Sha are the Most powerful order of Light Side Force Sensitives. (The evidence proves it)
Matukai are the 2nd Most powerful Order of Light Side Force Sensitives. (The evidence proves it)

Im done with you Jedi fanboy(:

Originally posted by Q99
Any skilled group of force-sensitive warriors should be able to handle a large group of pirates anyway.

Jedi are known to occasionally handle large groups of Sith or other force users.



Nope, back in the day the Matukai wouldn't let *any* of their apprentices learn from the Jedi because they viewed them as elitist.

Once the Jedi no longer were elitist, they have no reason for adepts to stay away either.

If the Matukai adepts didn't like the Jedi, why the heck would they let their students join? That's common sense.

Also, don't forget they continued to train in the Matukai way even after becoming Jedi, they didn't cease being Matukai. So you'd still have fully trained members at the end of the day.





It's up to 40? I got mine for like, 12 ^^ And actually a couple unrelated to this conversation too, like the New Jedi Order one. I like having physical books and this reminded me they exist to pick up (though I am disappointed the KotoR is, like, crazy expensive). And excuse me for not finding being called a SW geek much of an insult on a SW forum.

Also, have you noticed that I haven't been raving about the Jedi? That I, in fact, have mostly just been noting they have similar ideas? I just haven't been agreeing with you, that every order you see is 'obviously superior'. Because, well, nothing says they're superior! You may try and justify to yourself that the only reason someone'd not agree with you is being a fangirl or boy, but that's just an excuse you're making for us looking at the facts and finding out you're wrong.

You are a liar.

You've been lying a lot, and whether or not you like that the heros guide proves my point, it does prove my point, as does, like Pwned mentioned, the wookiepedia article you mentioned.

Your points are regularly contradicted even before the material you yourself post. Why is it so hard to read the sources instead of making stuff up and insisting your stuff is right and not the actual sources that determines what's right? Nope you've been raving on about Jedi this & Jedi that. Jedi are firmly in the middle possessing no Specializations or weaknesses. (Your words of course, that you contradicted later on) You are a egotistical hypocritical Jedi fan boy/girl

You unknowingly proved the Zeison Sha to be the most powerful light side order. The Matukai are the 2nd most powerful Light Side Order, since they continually get stronger physically, using their Strengthening refreshment technique.

Debate closed

Originally posted by Pwned
If it wasn't for the fact he uses punctuation and grammar, I would think he was just Logic trying to insult us

Though I agree. It is quite funny.




And now, we break to dancing bananas:



Okay, you're a ****ing boss. Let them bananas dance!

Originally posted by Hacker
You just admitted to me you have no life. "I'm having fun ". If you call this fun... You live a sad life my friend.

Originally posted by tadpol
ok im back you call me a sockpuppet got me well you now so i had to make a new account now i am tadpol

Something tells me these guys are more socks of SSL.

Originally posted by GenomeFrozener
Something tells me these guys are more socks of SSL.

Something tells me you're a little punk who hides behind his keyboard.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Yeah some of the remaining Matukai apprentices were allowed to joined Luke skywalker's jedi praxeum, since the Matukai Adepts deemed it less elitist.

The Matukai weren't weak even in the littlest sense. They were able to Build up force sensitivity in individuals who weren't force sensitive, using the methods of meditative martial arts & exercise.

No Matukai fell to the Dark Side since its founding in 4,000 BBY. If any did fall, they would have referenced to some of their members falling to the Dark side throughout their history, like the Zeison Sha did.

This lie of yours just costed you something. Mendor Typhoons wasn't the only one who found Jedi training elitist and ineffectual. Mendor Typhoons said in specific that, Matukai Warriors (Matukai Adepts) found Jedi training elitist (Strict) and ineffectual (Ineffective).

The Matukai Adepts that were around during Luke Skywalker's time deemed his praxeum less strict then Bodo Baas's, nothing changed on their views concerning ineffective Jedi training. So thus Matukai Adepts let some of their remaining apprentices join skywalker's jedi praxeum, and the apprentices that did join distinguished themself's with a facial tattoo. Your lies just lost you this debate.

Its absurd how people these days hang on every word.

Zeison Sha are the Most powerful order of Light Side Force Sensitives. (The evidence proves it)
Matukai are the 2nd Most powerful Order of Light Side Force Sensitives. (The evidence proves it)

Im done with you Jedi fanboy(: Hmmm, so you contradict yourself there. Grats.

Give me the quotes where others say that.

Except they were too weak to be Jedi, so they made a technique to enhance Force connection beyond its natural limit, yeah?

Just because it does not specifically say that some fell does NOT mean that none did. Records are lost. Hell, the PT makes a big deal of, "The Lost Twenty" the 20 Masters who left the Order. Since then? The number is at least 100. Meaning that shit happens.

You have no evidence.
You have no evidence.
Everything is merely assumptions


Now tell me, how does me copy+pasting from Wookieepedia mean I am lying? Hell, YOU are the one who has been caught with at least 6 lies now. So why don't you shut your little mouth and get off the boards, hmm? Maybe your mother would like to hear you rant and rave in an illogical manner

Nothing says it was only apprentices, that was a lie of yours just there. The book in fact says that their force tradition was preserved. Heck, if they could do better, why even let apprentices join? That in itself is an indication that they consider the Jedi worthy teachers- sending an Adept to another school doesn't mean too much, but sending apprentices show you trust them to do the job right.

And the Jedi training was sufficient to defeat the strongest Inquisitors where the Matukai fell. So we have direct evidence of strength beyond quotes in any case.

Another lie on your side, another false-accusation of lying shot down, and the evidence still says what it says and doesn't agree with you.




General tip: If you're complaining about people insisting on using what the words actually say, then you may be on the wrong side of the fact in the debate



The ones where nothing says they're stronger and who survived the Inquisition primarily by avoiding it? Where their game stats don't point them as stronger in the slightest than the Jedi (which their training is in fact based on), merely more specialized?



The one where nothing ever says it and even they themselves changed their mind on the Jedi when it became less elitist? Where even their own description says they have rivals in martial arts?

Saying 'the evidence says it' doesn't change that the evidence- even evidence you yourself post!- says anything but.



You keep saying you're done but you keep trying to push your made-up information that's not in any source.

If you're done, you can cease. Your points are repeatedly shot down by the facts, but that doesn't change that you can stop any time by stopping arguing about it.

Originally posted by Pwned
Hmmm, so you contradict yourself there. Grats.

Give me the quotes where others say that.

Except they were too weak to be Jedi, so they made a technique to enhance Force connection beyond its natural limit, yeah?

Just because it does not specifically say that some fell does NOT mean that none did. Records are lost. Hell, the PT makes a big deal of, "The Lost Twenty" the 20 Masters who left the Order. Since then? The number is at least 100. Meaning that shit happens.

You have no evidence.
You have no evidence.
Everything is merely assumptions


Now tell me, how does me copy+pasting from Wookieepedia mean I am lying? Hell, YOU are the one who has been caught with at least 6 lies now. So why don't you shut your little mouth and get off the boards, hmm? Maybe your mother would like to hear you rant and rave in an illogical manner Are you stupid? i wasn't talking about your Copy&Pasted sentences.

The lie was "Mendor typhoons was the only one who found jedi training elitist and ineffectual". That was a lie due to this.

Typhoons indicated to the Jedi that the Matukai warriors found Jedi training elitist and ineffectual.

Matukai Warriors A.K.A Matukai Adepts found Jedi training both strict and ineffective.

Later Luke Skywalker created a Jedi praxeum, one that the Matukai adepts viewed as less strict. Nothing changed on their view of Jedi training being less ineffective.

No Matukai have fell to the Dark Side since its founding in 4,000 BBY.

The Reason is the Matukai code.

Through exercise, discover the Force.
Through the Force, discover tranquility.
Through tranquility, discover vitality.

The only word that explains you is, J A C K A S S

Eh, go ahead and try to make personal attacks, it won't work. I don't care.


Show me proof that none have fallen. Until then, you can not assume that none have.

Give me a link where the Matukai code is. Nothing about it on the article. Or a page number.

I concede the point that it was, "warriors" I merely misread the sentence. Having re-read it, it is such.


Seriously though, you have done nothing but lie after your points were shot down. Now take Q99's (NERD!) advice and stop.

Originally posted by Q99
Nothing says it was only apprentices, that was a lie of yours just there. The book in fact says that their force tradition was preserved. Heck, if they could do better, why even let apprentices join? That in itself is an indication that they consider the Jedi worthy teachers- sending an Adept to another school doesn't mean too much, but sending apprentices show you trust them to do the job right.

And the Jedi training was sufficient to defeat the strongest Inquisitors where the Matukai fell. So we have direct evidence of strength beyond quotes in any case.

Another lie on your side, another false-accusation of lying shot down, and the evidence still says what it says and doesn't agree with you.




General tip: If you're complaining about people insisting on using what the words actually say, then you may be on the wrong side of the fact in the debate



The ones where nothing says they're stronger and who survived the Inquisition primarily by avoiding it? Where their game stats don't point them as stronger in the slightest than the Jedi (which their training is in fact based on), merely more specialized?



The one where nothing ever says it and even they themselves changed their mind on the Jedi when it became less elitist? Where even their own description says they have rivals in martial arts?

Saying 'the evidence says it' doesn't change that the evidence- even evidence you yourself post!- says anything but.



You keep saying you're done but you keep trying to push your made-up information that's not in any source.

If you're done, you can cease. Your points are repeatedly shot down by the facts, but that doesn't change that you can stop any time by stopping arguing about it. Its no lie. The Matukai Adepts saw Luke Skywalker's Jedi praxeum as less elitist compared to the previous one lead by Bodo Baas. Nothing changed on their views of ineffective Jedi training. So thus the Matukai adepts allowed their apprentices to make the free choice of learning newer ways of the force, as well as their ancient training methods. And those results lead to several of their apprentices falling to the Yuuzhan Vong in the ensuing war.

The biggest flaw in your arguments are not realizing the Matukai don't have a main role in the storyline. Kyle Katarn didn't defeat all the inquisitors, but rather the majority of them. The inquisitors he didn't kill went into hiding, waiting for the right moment to strike. And even then Kyle Katarn fought the imperial inquisitors using Might vs Might. Katarn never was in the situation of being unknowingly hunted by individuals you can't detect.

You can say "Jedi can do this and Jedi can do that". But the Fact of the matter is the Matukai are the most powerful light side order physically. They were counterbalanced by being very short in numbers.

If the Matukai were just as big as the Jedi order in terms of numbers, there would be virtually no point in joining the Jedi order anymore. Because Joining the Matukai order will give the individual 6 benefits the jedi don't have.

The 1st Benefit is individuals wearing Matukai apprentice robes, which empowers the individual's physical body in terms of Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution by 1%, in attempt to help the wearer reach a physical & spiritual balance.

The 2nd benefit is graduating to the rank of Matukai Adept. Once a Individual reaches this Rank, his body is physically empowered in terms of strength, dexterity and constitution by 2%.

The 3rd Benefit is, after Reaching the Rank of Matukai Adept, individuals develop a natural immunity to illnesses & Poisons of all kinds, even of they are of the deadliest manufactured.

The 4th benefit is, after graduating the the rank of a Matukai Adept, the individual is capable of doing complex martial sequences such as, patterned kicks, patterned punches, and dodges with a astonishing body maneuverability speed described as a "whirlwind" blur of limbs and movement.

(Depending on his experience that is)

The 5th Benefit is, after reaching the rank of Matukai Adept, the individual is able to refresh his spirit with a tireless energy that not only gives immediate replenishment, but also permanent augmentation in the individual's Strength and power , giving him feats of strength and power exceeding what his body was originally capable of after every refreshment.

The 6th Benefit is, after reaching the Rank of Matukai Adept, The User is able to wield his Wan-shen at the amazing speed of a virtual whirlwind, which is the same speed as a moving helicopter propeller.

Joining the Matukai order and reaching the rank of Matukai Adept factually exemplifies, that you are a master of controlling your own body in terms of body maneuverability, and weapon maneuverability. Inward and Outward for short. The Matukai Adepts were even capable of wielding and using polearm weapons as one handed weapons, which is something the Jedi order never developed as a proficiency that was either saw commonly or rarely.

You do realize what i mean by 2nd most powerful light side order right? if you don't then let me state this as verification to prevent your many confusions and delusions.

What i mean by the Matukai being the 2nd most powerful order of light side force sensitives is exactly how it reads. (the 2nd most powerful order of LIGHT SIDE force sensitives)

The celestial ones are a gray order of force sensitves both intellectual beyond most, and tremendously powerful. Even though their feats were not replicated, The Aing Tii would wipe the floor with the ones if needed.

The Jedi are the 3rd most powerful Light Side order, due to many reasons. But they are trash in comparison to the Matukai physically .

Originally posted by Pwned
Eh, go ahead and try to make personal attacks, it won't work. I don't care.


Show me proof that none have fallen. Until then, you can not assume that none have.

Give me a link where the Matukai code is. Nothing about it on the article. Or a page number.

I concede the point that it was, "warriors" I merely misread the sentence. Having re-read it, it is such.


Seriously though, you have done nothing but lie after your points were shot down. Now take Q99's (NERD!) advice and stop. Can you show me proof that some Matukai fell to the Dark side throughout the history of their order? if not then cease with your opinions.

I'v never lied not once since i been here. I told the truth. A truth some won't believe. Q99 can't say a dam thing, he contradicted 10 times throught these supposed arguments, which makes his opinions that of a minority's. Q99 is not a nerd. He's a geek. Big difference.

You made the preposterous claim that none of them have fallen. It's up to you to back that up.

And yes, you have lied. Q99 has checked the sources YOU referenced, and you have contradicted the Wookiee at points.


Oh, and you can't use mechanics for an RPG/Game in order to back these up -.-

Your whole post in reply to Q99's is utter bullshit.







The reason they are not the 2nd most powerful? Because they were too weak to be Jedi. They were not going to be picked, so the Jedi did not care what they did. The sources explicitly say this. Not to mention that if they were the second most powerful, theyw ould not have been released in a random sourcebook. There would have been a novel about them. Same with the Zeison Sha. They are both random organizations made to give the universe a bit of depth, they are not that important. There's a reason the Jedi rose to the top and stayed there with the Republic; they were the most powerful and could produce the best range of Force-users. That makes them much more powerful, since versatility>specialization. Sure, they are outclassed in some areas where other organizations focus on those, but Random Jedi A can beat Random Zeison Sha Adept B, or Matukai Adept B.


Therefore your entire argument is invalid.

Nope, I said the Jedi as a whole are generalist, with individual members have different specializations and weaknesses.



Nope. And how is noting the Jedi don't specialize in a single branch of power 'egotistical' or 'hypocritical'? The Jedi really do have a wide variety of force techniques, and they're not the only ones. The Jensaarai, the Imperial Knights, and the Witches of Dathomir are more non-specialists around.

The two factions you've chosen to focus on both are specifically specialists in one area. If you're comparing specialists in a single area, to a much larger order that doesn't specialize, of course you're going to see more variety. And, sometimes, you're going to see individuals that specialize or are otherwise very good in the same areas they are, because the Jedi do not avoid these areas like you assume, and we've got many cases of Jedi demonstrating martial arts and TK.

In each cases, you've made the assumption that, "Ah ha! They are specialist, therefore they must be overall more powerful, and the Jedi must suck in this area!". And it's simply an assumption.




Hah, I knowingly provided quotes that showed they weren't. Heck, not even they think they were the best, they were actively worried about groups like the Imperial Inquisition.

Their defense wasn't as good as you claimed, their dealing with imperial occupation was never described as easy, their force-bubbles are something Jedi have demonstrated too, etc..

Nothing to this day says they're stronger.

It's just an assumption with no answered burden of proof.



Except.... the Jedi do physical training too (said in the Matukai article!), and they also do a buncha other stuff!

Including, sometimes, high-level martial arts just like the Matukai, as given with numerous examples.

And, including, in later eras, Matukai Jedi.


The Matukai certainly are at the top in endurance and martial arts... however at the same time, they do not have the Jedi's force attacks and many of the other things which are also part of total power.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
I'v never lied not once since i been here. I told the truth. A truth some won't believe. Q99 can't say a dam thing, he contradicted 10 times throught these supposed arguments, which makes his opinions that of a minority's. Q99 is not a nerd. He's a geek. Big difference.

Geeks are generally considered higher in the social hierarchy than nerds... and neither are considered bad nowadays. They lost all bite years and years ago.

And you asserted I was contradicted 10 times, but then I showed sources indicating that no, your assertions were wrong, the sources said that I wasn't contradicted and your stuff was incorrect. Often explicitly, directly-contradicted-by-direct-quotes incorrect.

If you're shown a source that says something is wrong, then you say it's right even knowing that, it's a lie. If you say that something happened, and then no source says it happened, it's a lie. If you say someone else's claim is wrong even after a direct source supports it and show it's right, it's a lie.

Your arguments are full of all types of these lies. All of your insisted contradictions are things that have been shot down by the facts in the sources.


You've not only lied a lot, but you've been caught in these lies.


You are a bad liar, Star Wars Logic. In two senses, both in the sense that you lie a lot, and that your lies are easily caught.

Originally posted by Pwned
You made the preposterous claim that none of them have fallen. It's up to you to back that up.

And yes, you have lied. Q99 has checked the sources YOU referenced, and you have contradicted the Wookiee at points.


Oh, and you can't use mechanics for an RPG/Game in order to back these up -.-

Your whole post in reply to Q99's is utter bullshit.







The reason they are not the 2nd most powerful? Because they were too weak to be Jedi. They were not going to be picked, so the Jedi did not care what they did. The sources explicitly say this. Not to mention that if they were the second most powerful, theyw ould not have been released in a random sourcebook. There would have been a novel about them. Same with the Zeison Sha. They are both random organizations made to give the universe a bit of depth, they are not that important. There's a reason the Jedi rose to the top and stayed there with the Republic; they were the most powerful and could produce the best range of Force-users. That makes them much more powerful, since versatility>specialization. Sure, they are outclassed in some areas where other organizations focus on those, but Random Jedi A can beat Random Zeison Sha Adept B, or Matukai Adept B.


Therefore your entire argument is invalid. Yeah i did back it up with my words, which stands as evidence.

You keep saying Matukai adepts were too weak to be jedi, this reveal contradiction,

the Jedi Council sought an alliance with another Force sect, the Matukai. Upon learning that a Matukai named Mendor Typhoons had defeated a pirate gang near the world of Ord Radama, Baas and the others arranged for a meeting in orbit of Ord Radama.

Why would Bodo Baas attempt to bring the Matukai into the jedi's fold and train them, if he knew were too weak to be jedi in the first place ?
Answer, Bodo wouldn't have attempted to convert the Matukai into the order if he knew they were too weak to be jedi. If he did attempt to convert matukai members too weak for jedi training, that would have defeated the purpose for his reasons of alliance. Most of the Matukai's individuals (Matukai apprentices) were too old and wouldn't have been picked for jedi training in the first place.

I never contradicted Wookieepedia. I just used different words with the same meanings.

You have to understand no source books concerning the Matukai and Zeison Sha will be released anytime soon. If any Matukai & Zeison Sha story books were released, that would cause the Jedi order's collapse.

It doesn't matter what sources Q99 has gone through. Q99 needs word for word based evidence described by sources in order to get verification concerning something controversial. Since what i said isn't word for word in his eyes, he deemed it lies. Due to the fact he has a inability to decrypt word based definitions. In short, Q99 has the perception of a 7th grader.

Oh you just directly contradicted yourself and your friend Q99 by saying "Oh, and you can't use mechanics for a RPG/Game in order to back these up" (Even through Kotor 2 stands as evidence, while the hero's guide stands as the basics of what both orders can do) I guess you really are stupid .

In other words everything you have said here is utter jedi fanboyism.

Originally posted by Q99
Nope, I said the Jedi as a whole are generalist, with individual members have different specializations and weaknesses.



Nope. And how is noting the Jedi don't specialize in a single branch of power 'egotistical' or 'hypocritical'? The Jedi really do have a wide variety of force techniques, and they're not the only ones. The Jensaarai, the Imperial Knights, and the Witches of Dathomir are more non-specialists around.

The two factions you've chosen to focus on both are specifically specialists in one area. If you're comparing specialists in a single area, to a much larger order that doesn't specialize, of course you're going to see more variety. And, sometimes, you're going to see individuals that specialize or are otherwise very good in the same areas they are, because the Jedi do not avoid these areas like you assume, and we've got many cases of Jedi demonstrating martial arts and TK.

In each cases, you've made the assumption that, "Ah ha! They are specialist, therefore they must be overall more powerful, and the Jedi must suck in this area!". And it's simply an assumption.




Hah, I knowingly provided quotes that showed they weren't. Heck, not even they think they were the best, they were actively worried about groups like the Imperial Inquisition.

Their defense wasn't as good as you claimed, their dealing with imperial occupation was never described as easy, their force-bubbles are something Jedi have demonstrated too, etc..

Nothing to this day says they're stronger.

It's just an assumption with no answered burden of proof.



Except.... the Jedi do physical training too (said in the Matukai article!), and they also do a buncha other stuff!

Including, sometimes, high-level martial arts just like the Matukai, as given with numerous examples.

And, including, in later eras, Matukai Jedi.


The Matukai certainly are at the top in endurance and martial arts... however at the same time, they do not have the Jedi's force attacks and many of the other things which are also part of total power. Nope you said later on "The Jedi are specialist in all areas" which is contradicted by your post to KylarWhite on the 1st page of this thread, and also in this reply of yours to me. I guess you contradicted yourself 12 times throughout these little disagreements of yours.

I said the Matukai are the most powerful physically compared to all other light side orders. Not the most powerful in all areas.

I guess you still don't understand what the first post on this thread means.

Matukai philosophy differed from that of the Jedi Order in that the Jedi saw physical exercise and meditation as separate. Which means the Jedi Order have never viewed and used physical exercise and meditation as a combination, but rather they viewed both as separate from each other. DING DING DING DING DING .

I guess that ends that confusion .

Originally posted by Q99
Geeks are generally considered higher in the social hierarchy than nerds... and neither are considered bad nowadays. They lost all bite years and years ago.

Seems like the actual definition of Geek contradicts you.

geek
1.An unfashionable or socially inept person
2.A person with an eccentric devotion to a particular interest: "a computer geek".
lying to yourself I SEE.

@ Q99
Why are you dissipating your energy? Come back to the versus forum, bro.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Yeah i did back it up with my words, which stands as evidence.

You keep saying Matukai adepts were too weak to be jedi, this reveal contradiction,

the Jedi Council sought an alliance with another Force sect, the Matukai. Upon learning that a Matukai named Mendor Typhoons had defeated a pirate gang near the world of Ord Radama, Baas and the others arranged for a meeting in orbit of Ord Radama.

Why would Bodo Baas attempt to bring the Matukai into the jedi's fold and train them, if he knew were too weak to be jedi in the first place ?
Answer, Bodo wouldn't have attempted to convert the Matukai into the order if he knew they were too weak to be jedi. If he did attempt to convert matukai members too weak for jedi training, that would have defeated the purpose for his reasons of alliance. Most of the Matukai's individuals (Matukai apprentices) were too old and wouldn't have been picked for jedi training in the first place.

I never contradicted Wookieepedia. I just used different words with the same meanings.

You have to understand no source books concerning the Matukai and Zeison Sha will be released anytime soon. If any Matukai & Zeison Sha story books were released, that would cause the Jedi order's collapse.

It doesn't matter what sources Q99 has gone through. Q99 needs word for word based evidence described by sources in order to get verification concerning something controversial. Since what i said isn't word for word in his eyes, he deemed it lies. Due to the fact he has a inability to decrypt word based definitions. In short, Q99 has the perception of a 7th grader.

Oh you just directly contradicted yourself and your friend Q99 by saying "Oh, and you can't use mechanics for a RPG/Game in order to back these up" (Even through Kotor 2 stands as evidence, while the hero's guide stands as the basics of what both orders can do) I guess you really are stupid .

In other words everything you have said here is utter jedi fanboyism. That's not how it works. You have to use official sources to back up your claims. Saying, "Its true because I say so! That means it's evidence!" in not how you debate. That is arguing. Poorly at that.

Alliance =/= Assimilate. He wanted to incorporate their specialized training into the Jedi's physical regimen.

No, you used different words and gave them a different meaning. Your assumptions are not canon, nor are they even true. You say what supports your, "argument" even though very little of it is true.

And of course the won't. Because those orders are nothing but backdrop. They don't matter.

And the mechanics of KotoR 2 do not stand as evidence, the fluff, or stuff in descriptions and the like, are what stand. Mechanics make the game work. So if there is flavor text for them, then that can be used.


So your, "1% increase in Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution" does not stand up as evidence at all. Those have no relevance to anything whatsoever. Same with class abilities. Otherwise I could say, "Well in Saga Edition every Jedi gets the ability to utilize Saber forms that give a 2% increase in their ability to hit, and can survive falling from low orbit without significant impairment" when none of that is true. (That comes in with BAB and HP btw. Because they actually can)

Originally posted by Pwned
That's not how it works. You have to use official sources to back up your claims. Saying, "Its true because I say so! That means it's evidence!" in not how you debate. That is arguing. Poorly at that.

Alliance =/= Assimilate. He wanted to incorporate their specialized training into the Jedi's physical regimen.

No, you used different words and gave them a different meaning. Your assumptions are not canon, nor are they even true. You say what supports your, "argument" even though very little of it is true.

And of course the won't. Because those orders are nothing but backdrop. They don't matter.

And the mechanics of KotoR 2 do not stand as evidence, the fluff, or stuff in descriptions and the like, are what stand. Mechanics make the game work. So if there is flavor text for them, then that can be used.


So your, "1% increase in Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution" does not stand up as evidence at all. Those have no relevance to anything whatsoever. Same with class abilities. Otherwise I could say, "Well in Saga Edition every Jedi gets the ability to utilize Saber forms that give a 2% increase in their ability to hit, and can survive falling from low orbit without significant impairment" when none of that is true. (That comes in with BAB and HP btw. Because they actually can) The one thing you still fail to understand is, i am a source. KOTOR 2 does stand as evidence, heck the description in the Matukai adept robe says how magnificent they are physically.


These robes were worn by individuals who had mastered the Matukai philosophy of achieving harmony between the mind and body, hence were capable of incredible physical feats. The Matukai were an order of Force-sensitives who used exercise as a form of meditation. The balance of the physical body and spiritual Force was the cornerstone of their philosophy.

I use different words with the same meanings. 2 ways of saying the same thing in short.

Originally posted by Pwned

Alliance =/= Assimilate. He wanted to incorporate their specialized training into the Jedi's physical regimen.






Since you think Matukai adepts were too weak to be jedi, why would Bodo baas want to incorporate their "weaker" training methods ?

That already trashed your little theory of Matukai being weak.

You say I'm biased, but I have multiple sources with quotes to back me up, with the information provided and even supported by the article you posted.

I say you're making things up and lying, and you have nothing but your word that's contradicted by sources and quotes, even ones you use.

One of these things has more credibility than the other, and it's not you.

You can't simply 'want' someone into being biased, or for the sources to not disprove your arguments. Heck, regardless of what I think, they contradict you nonetheless, blatantly and often.




Nope, it has an exact list of the abilities that are unique to them through all their levels, and it does not say it's a basic list or say that there's stuff it doesn't cover.

Also, I also have the Jedi Academy Training Manual, which also goes into their abilities in depth more recently.

Remember, I am not relying on one source. I have *every last source*.

Not a single one so much as hints at uber abilites beyond what's mentioned.


You're acting like arguing one source not saying what it does, in fact, say, somehow defeats my own argument, but the Hero's Guide has more than you'd like, and I have additional sources as well.



Nope, you've asserted it's the basics because it's the first one published, but it's not written as such, it's an in-depth coverage of them designed to allow someone to play a Matukai up to their highest levels.

And, as mentioned, I have the latest information too. I have every single source and not just made-up assertions.



Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
The one thing you still fail to understand is, i am a source.


You are a source of your own personal fanon. It doesn't make it true.

A person is not a source unless they are a Star Wars writer- and that is one actually hired to write the particular thing. A person can pass on information on other sources, but a person isn't a canon source just because you want to be.



Yep, and no-one's saying that they aren't great physically. You're the only one taking it to mean that they're stronger than an organization with literally multiple orders of magnitude larger recruiting pool who regularly clashed with the full Sith order and who also train to develop powerful abilities.




And does any of that say they're more powerful?

Nope!

It didn't stop them from falling to the Imperial Inquisition either, something that explicitly happened.

You just have this bad tendency of taking a statement saying, "Group X is good at Y," and then jumping with it and saying "Ah ha, they MUST be better than group N!".

Even if nothing says that they're better than group N, and group N has people good at Y while also having other people good at Z, R, and M, and some who're good at multiple of those.



Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Since you think Matukai adepts were too weak to be jedi, why would Bodo baas want to incorporate their "weaker" training methods ?

That already trashed your little theory of Matukai being weak.

Nope, they had weaker *force potential*, he didn't think their training was bad.


Basically, the Matukai would take people who are 1s and 2s, and bump them up to 4s and 5s.

Jedi would pass on 1s and 2s and take people who have higher potential out the gate and train them to use that potential well.


In short, the Matukai were like hybrid cars- they get really good gas milage and good power for how little gas they use.

The Jedi, on the other hand, have people who burn twice the power but that's ok because they have twice the tank. Sometimes more (Mace Windu, Yoda, etc.). They had the pick of the people with the most potential in the galaxy.

Originally posted by Q99
You say I'm biased, but I have multiple sources with quotes to back me up, with the information provided and even supported by the article you posted.

I say you're making things up and lying, and you have nothing but your word that's contradicted by sources and quotes, even ones you use.

One of these things has more credibility than the other, and it's not you.

You can't simply 'want' someone into being biased, or for the sources to not disprove your arguments. Heck, regardless of what I think, they contradict you nonetheless, blatantly and often.




Nope, it has an exact list of the abilities that are unique to them through all their levels, and it does not say it's a basic list or say that there's stuff it doesn't cover.

Also, I also have the Jedi Academy Training Manual, which also goes into their abilities in depth more recently.

Remember, I am not relying on one source. I have *every last source*.

Not a single one so much as hints at uber abilites beyond what's mentioned.


You're acting like arguing one source not saying what it does, in fact, say, somehow defeats my own argument, but the Hero's Guide has more than you'd like, and I have additional sources as well.



Nope, you've asserted it's the basics because it's the first one published, but it's not written as such, it's an in-depth coverage of them designed to allow someone to play a Matukai up to their highest levels.

And, as mentioned, I have the latest information too. I have every single source and not just made-up assertions.





You are a source of your own personal fanon. It doesn't make it true.

A person is not a source unless they are a Star Wars writer- and that is one actually hired to write the particular thing. A person can pass on information on other sources, but a person isn't a canon source just because you want to be.



Yep, and no-one's saying that they aren't great physically. You're the only one taking it to mean that they're stronger than an organization with literally multiple orders of magnitude larger recruiting pool who regularly clashed with the full Sith order and who also train to develop powerful abilities.




And does any of that say they're more powerful?

Nope!

It didn't stop them from falling to the Imperial Inquisition either, something that explicitly happened.

You just have this bad tendency of taking a statement saying, "Group X is good at Y," and then jumping with it and saying "Ah ha, they MUST be better than group N!".

Even if nothing says that they're better than group N, and group N has people good at Y while also having other people good at Z, R, and M, and some who're good at multiple of those.





Nope, they had weaker *force potential*, he didn't think their training was bad.


Basically, the Matukai would take people who are 1s and 2s, and bump them up to 4s and 5s.

Jedi would pass on 1s and 2s and take people who have higher potential out the gate and train them to use that potential well.


In short, the Matukai were like hybrid cars- they get really good gas milage and good power for how little gas they use.

The Jedi, on the other hand, have people who burn twice the power but that's ok because they have twice the tank. Sometimes more (Mace Windu, Yoda, etc.). They had the pick of the people with the most potential in the galaxy. You purposely wait for me to go offline to post your opinions, thats both condescending and pathetic.

So what you're saying is, Matukai are really proficient in Hand-to-hand, while also being really powerful physically, while using little force power to achieve that? CONTRADICTION.

This is just like arguing with a Zombie. Nothing needs to say the Matukai are the most powerful light side order physically. Looking at their physical abilities in comparison to the jedi's, already deemed the matukai superior overall, physically.

Matukai adepts can punch, kick and flip at the speed of a whirlwind blur. (Complex martial sequences)

Some jedi use a lightsaber style known as Jar-Kar. Which is a Jedi swinging his lightsaber fast in a almost vertical colum. (A.K.A creating a Briliant whirlwind)

The Matukai adepts were able to use wan-shens with the astonishing speed of a virtual whirlwind. (Helicopter propeller)

Matukai Wins again.

I'll be back tomorrow .

No, not a contradiction. I mean, the first two are the same thing, and the Matukai training is specifically on building the most out of a weak-ish link to the force. Nor is hand to hand skill based on force connection.

... you really didn't read their wookieepedia article, did you? This was covered there.



Actually, it does. That's what burden of proof is, when you make a claim, something needs to say it's true.

And no matter how many times you make a claim, without that it'll be wrong every time.

When are you going to get that repeating yourself isn't going to support your argument?



Except most of their advantages are rather small ones, and some Jedi like Mace Windu have shown incredible physical powers themselves.

You've decided to yourself the Matukai are superior, but you're overlooking that others can engage in high-level intense physical training as well.

The high-level martial arts stuff, like moving like a whirlwind? That is something the Jedi can specifically do too. The Matukai have some advantages, but they're more on stuff like controlling the body to make it more resistant to punches and poison, not the high-level stuff.


And the Jedi Path specifically states they are only 'among' the best martial artists. The sources indicate they can be rivaled.


Some jedi use a lightsaber style known as Jar-Kar. Which is a Jedi swinging his lightsaber fast in a almost vertical colum. (A.K.A creating a Briliant whirlwind)

'Rising Whirlwind' does not require Jar-Kai, though it's often used in conjunction. I mentioned that before.



You have three mentions of the word 'whirlwind'. None of their descriptions actually indicate one is faster than another. From this, you decide one side wins.

You're pretty bad at arguing

For any shot at an argument:

Q99 covered anything I need to. Kudos to him for saving me the time. <3

Originally posted by Q99
No, not a contradiction. I mean, the first two are the same thing, and the Matukai training is specifically on building the most out of a weak-ish link to the force. Nor is hand to hand skill based on force connection.

... you really didn't read their wookieepedia article, did you? This was covered there.



Actually, it does. That's what burden of proof is, when you make a claim, something needs to say it's true.

And no matter how many times you make a claim, without that it'll be wrong every time.

When are you going to get that repeating yourself isn't going to support your argument?



Except most of their advantages are rather small ones, and some Jedi like Mace Windu have shown incredible physical powers themselves.

You've decided to yourself the Matukai are superior, but you're overlooking that others can engage in high-level intense physical training as well.

The high-level martial arts stuff, like moving like a whirlwind? That is something the Jedi can specifically do too. The Matukai have some advantages, but they're more on stuff like controlling the body to make it more resistant to punches and poison, not the high-level stuff.


And the Jedi Path specifically states they are only 'among' the best martial artists. The sources indicate they can be rivaled.


Some jedi use a lightsaber style known as Jar-Kar. Which is a Jedi swinging his lightsaber fast in a almost vertical colum. (A.K.A creating a Briliant whirlwind)





You have three mentions of the word 'whirlwind'. None of their descriptions actually indicate one is faster than another. From this, you decide one side wins.

You're pretty bad at arguing

No i read Wookieepedia.

I have 3 mentions of Whirlwind because of specific reasons. 1 Reason is a Virtual Whirlwind is 2x faster then a Brilliant whirlwind. A brilliant whirlwind created by Jar-Kar is just a fast form of lightsaber maneuverability, not reaching the actual speed of that of a virtual whirlwind.

I mentioned "whirlwind" blur in a Matukai adept's Hand-to-Hand case due to the fact Matukai adepts can punch, kick, and flip in such complex martial sequences, that it creates a "whirlwind" blur of limbs and movements. That is something no Jedi has done, if so prove it. Since you love talking about the "burden of proof"

No you contradicted yourself by using that example of yours. You basically said Matukai Adepts reached their physical proficiency & Power using little Force power to do so. That's a contradiction against yourself, since you said previously that a Matukai Adept's physical strength and power is interconnected with the the force. Thus implied they needed to use a large degree of the force to maintain their stamina, strength and speed. This is the 13th time you contradicted yourself Congratulations! you might make a record and get a trophy on this site .

Your last assumption is wrong, actually. Saying that they utilized the Force with their bodies, and used the Force to maintain those bodies, is not a contradiction at all.



Also, go take a watch of Mace beating down an entire droid army with his bare hands. Or read Mace vs Sidious, how they were a blur that was only visible due to their lightsabers.

Or Kenobi vs Grevious, where he was blocking 20 strikes per second .

Or how many Jedi fighting are not even visible.


I can see a whirlwind. That's easy. Normal humans do that. A blur is what is impressive. Guess what? Matukai don't get that feat.






No matter what you say, you can't prove they are the second most powerful, same with how you couldn't prove the Zeison Sha were the most powerful. You hear about a specialization, then you assume that since one other character who was god-like in their own time could do it, then they can.