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I was wondering about the Sith, How Come can only be 2, a Master and an Apprentice? and since when the Sith follow rules, wouldnt they be more powerful having more than 2, i mean Sidious, Vader And Tyranuss wouldve been a great team and impossible to beat, also what are the Rules The Sith go by?

Ok, as GL describes it:

"One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the dark side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually, there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, become the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."

it makes sense, are every sith jedi turned to the dark side?

No, I would imagine most Sith were trained by other Sith just as Jedi are trained by Jedi.

I would have to agree with that, Ushgarak.

Ushgarak, about what you said earlier
if there were more than 2 they would kill the leader etc
so would that mean that Vader might kill Dooku??

he might, but as Vader or as Anakin?

Or dooku could be killed like Maul was, then Sidious would need to take another apprentice.

Feasible.

Sidious might kill Dooku, for that matter. Master and Apprentice will always struggle- it's GL's basic 'Evil is rubbish' lesson.

I always thought Sidious might have Anakin/Vader take Dooku out- and I don't mean to an expensive dinner.

me too vader will kill dooku

so the apprentice wil kill the master whe he/she powerful enough? so when the apprentice can kill the master, then the master succeeded in training the apprentice so the master is happy when he dies? nice, this means that every pair over the generations are more powerful than the one b4, good concept

whoa....was that supposed to be deep?

Our man member can be very deep when he puts his mind to it.

No, the Sith's training is complete when he becomes the Apprentice ('Apprentice' is a very relative term in the Sith- Dooku is the 'Apprentice' but is more powerful than most Jedi).

The Apprentice will inevitably want to kill the Master and the Master will inevitably want to replace the Apprentice. One will eventually kill the other. It is not CERTAIN that the Apprentice will succeed in toppling his Master. The Master may even die of natural causes if he does well enough.

Yes thats true. Anikan is also powerful but not smart enough to know how to use it.

So Ush, if what you are saying is true, Anakin could be being trained by Sidious as a Sith, and he eventually completes his training and becomes the apprentice.

Yup, although I doubt any proper Sith training can start until he is on the Dark Side.

remember that Vader was an apprentice too

Yes indedy, same principle.

Its all Qui Gons fault that Ani is the way he is.

Well, it is his 'fault' in that he died and so was unable to train him himself. But his instincts in training Anakin were correct, even though it was very risky.

Agreed.

well quigon sees the present more than he sees the future so he didn't notice that anakin could be dangerous right??, wow, that does suck for him...

He failed to understand the concerns of the council and his own apprentice regarding the boy.He is the one who took Anakin from his home and thrusted him right in the middle of a galactic war. So if anyone is to blame for Anakin being rushed into training it was Qui-Gon.

Never take a young boy away from his mother. But i guess Ani chose to go with Qui Gon, right?

Yes but he was hesitant the whole way, having to say goodbye to his mother and all.

But he couldnt keep his eyes of Padme.

Qui-Gon wasn't BLIND to the future. But his instincts told him that things would be ok.

Well he was infatuated with Padme when they first met in Watto's shop, remember. But was it romantic infatuation or some kind of surrogate mother syndrome..I just don't know.

If i was him i dont know if i would of left.

I think it was a big mistake anyway. The Sith might not have advanced their plans so easily if he had remained behind . But they were not even aware of him until the very end of The Phantom Menace.

But he did praticly destroy that one ship in the space war in TPM.

Yeah without him I suppose the Trade Federation could have won in their occupation of Naboo.

But if i were Ani i would of left. Then when we got back to the republicans place i would of asked Yoda or somebody if they would buy her too. I mean she could of been a maid or something.

Jedi`s usually got taken up as jedis as infants, Anakins feelings for his mother almost lost him his chanse as a jedi. She would be a great disturbance to him either way. As the jedis would have said it is not her destiny to be free

Actually, Anakin's fate would have made little different to the plans of the Sith at the time, which was to start the Clone Wars. If he had stayed behind it would have made a big difference ten years down the line, though.

thats IF he had stayed behind, anyway, in TPM, padme was kinda his mother/lover figure other than his mom.

What did you just say. In english please.

I see what Member is saying. Padme became the "mother figure" to Anakin after he left home, but would eventually become the love of his life.

THanks Gordon.

Always glad to help a jedi.

hey that sounds familiar...

A paraphrase borrowed from Jango Fett.

when did he say that?or did he?

What he actually said was "Always a pleasure to meet a jedi," and he said it to Obi-Wan when they were talking after being introduced to each other.

yeah that rings a bell.

The sith order consists of two orders
The sith order and the secret order.

The sith order goes like this starting from weakest to adepts
Every sith starts as a novice then becomes a sith warrior. One must choose the path to go on
the sith order goes like this
guardian
adept
sith knight
sith master
darkside prophet
then to aprentice then dark lord of the sith , then emperor.

the secret order goes like this

initiate
jedi hunter
royal assassin
inquisitor
emperors hand
then they go from to aprentice , dark lord of the sith then emperor.

The first siths were
Marka Ragnos

then naga sadow

exar kun

the the sith you know today consisting of a master and aprentice was made by no other then the great Darth Bane.
He came up with the idea of two siths , the old ways consist of many siths , but their dark ways took over and they killed each other. the old sith order was out of control and ended in choas.

From there on his history passed from Sidious to Luke Skywalker.

and this is all EU

and thus worthless

NO its not , its true history of the sith like it or not. Just because it isnt written by Lucas doesnt meen it dont exist or its legit. God arrogance.

is it in the movie? no
in the novel? no
in the radio drama (since it's the PT it doesn't exist)? so, no

is it canon then? no
does it have ANY use then? no

and THAT's the way of things, doesn't matter if you like it or not

Yes Altar- YOUR arrogance, not ours. According to Lucasfilm's own policy (as dictated by GL) only George Lucas' words and stories are legit- what right do you have to override that, huh? None of that stuff you provided is in any way part of the canonical Star Wars storyline. Keep EU to the dedicated EU section.

Get used to the way it works before calling US arrogant.

deja vu, eh, ush?

Well, in order for any of you guys to have validity, you need to cite places, so EU is just as worthy as anything else you guys have come up with. I definitely take stock in Lucas' direct words, but when you guys put stuff down, how do I know that's what they are? Give me some direction, fellas, I wanna read it for myself. Hell, Lucas' direction during the first 3 movies is different than where it's headed now. How do I know when those quotes were taken?
So, anyway Yerssot, pretty much all of what's been brought up in this thread isn't in the movies, novel OR radio drama.

Alright, this is from starwars.com. This is lifted in the databank for The Sith. This isn't under the EU section, this is in the Movies area.

An ancient order of Force-practitioners devoted to the dark side and determined to destroy the Jedi, the Sith were a menace long thought extinct. The current incarnation of the Sith is the result of a rogue Jedi dissident from the order. Two thousand years ago, this Jedi had come to the understanding that the true power of the Force lay not through contemplation and passivity. Only by tapping its dark side could its true potential be gained. The Jedi Council at the time balked at this new direction. The Dark Jedi was outcast, but he eventually gained followers to his new order. Awakening beliefs from the dark past, the new Sith cult continued to grow. With the promise of new powers attainable by tapping into the hateful energies of the dark side, it was only a matter of time before the order self-destructed. Internecine struggle by power-hungry Sith practioners dwindled their numbers.

One Sith had the cunning to survive. Darth Bane restructured the cult, so that there could only be two -- no more, no less -- a master, and an apprentice. Bane adopted cunning, subterfuge, and stealth as the fundamental tenets of the Sith order. Bane took an apprentice. When that apprentice succeeded him, that new Sith Lord would take an apprentice.

Thus, the Sith quietly continued for centuries, until the time of Darth Sidious and his apprentice, Darth Maul. By that time, the galaxy at large had believed the Sith to be extinct, a fabled threat from the past. Qui-Gon Jinn's report of a Sith attack on Tatooine was met by the Jedi Council with hesitation and skepticism. Surely if the Sith had returned, the Jedi would have detected it, they reasoned.

The dark side, for all its power, is ultimately hard to detect when required. A shadowy master like Darth Sidious was able to keep his presence a secret, even when sharing a world with the Jedi Temple.

With the death of Darth Maul at Naboo, the Jedi Council realized that the Sith menace was true. What they hadn't puzzled was whether Maul was the master, or the apprentice. Years would pass before the Sith menace arose once more, a menace that would eventually come to engulf the entire galaxy.

all tne mods are saying is that EU goes in the EU section. this section is for movies only, specifically ep.3.

well RJ just said it

I cannot see anything canonical here that is in doubt, Gregor, and as we have direct source info that EU is NO good, then the idea that EU is as good as the canonical stuff cited is nonsensical. Though the only source I personally quoted was from GL himself. You can simply disbelieve the validity of it if you want, but that's not very nice, and I tire of continually having to explain where quotes come from- but just so you know, that quote I gave from GL was in an interview with Time Magazine when TPM came out. But whilst ensuring info is accurate is good in a dry, academic sense, it would be NICE if you did not doubt such things by default.

Incidentally, whilst a good guide, and whilst there is no good reason to dispute what you post, the website isn't canon either and has made errors before. The only truly canon stuff we have on the past of the Sith is that GL quote.

wow, this is old, who digged this ruin up?

indiana jones?

no, it was lara croft. i was there. we were naughty......

yea...hm...

Sorry fellas, I'm not trying to push people around or be a jerk about it. It's just that when people quote personas for their own references, sometimes things are twisted around for personal use, if you know what I mean. I just like being informed 1st hand, not 2nd, 3rd and so on. It just kind of gets under my skin when people rip other posters apart without having verifiable info on their own posts. Nothing personal, I just don't know you, so when someone says it's a direct GL quote, I want to see it. Anyway, I think I worded the previous post poorly. I don't mean that EU is just as worthy as GL's word. I meant that, since everything that's been posted is unverifiable as it stands, these "quotes" from GL are about as valid as EU. I agree that EU and GL don't agree, most of the time, in fact. And GL always takes precedence. As for starwars.com, I think that's about as canonical as you can get, especially when it already makes the distinction between the movies and EU. Errors or no, it's no reason to say it's not canonical when it doesn't support your own argument. I don't like being pessimistic and doubtful of other quoters, but when there's so much mudslinging going on, I think it's necessary in order to make a well-informed opinion.

hm...enlighten me, who is EU?

who or what is EU?

The films hold all the info you need to know, what is beyond the films is of no interest here

"the films hold all the interest you need to know" is a bit harsh. "keep EU to the EU section" is more appropriate.

The films hold all the interest you need to know cause this is about the films, so it aint harsh at all it is the facts

so you arent saying that EU is BS? sorry if i jumped the gun.

guess it said it all

Gregor, sorry, but the website is not canonical- FACT. Your opinion on the matter does not change that. It's no more canonical than what Rick "Only three lightsabre colours" McCallum says- it might be official, but it has no canon status, and I do not appreciate your implication that I am only saying that because what it says does not suit me. I am saying that because it is TRUE, and such statements do not aid your assertation that you are not trying to be a jerk. The reason it distinguishes between the films and EU is because it simply acts as a non-canonical source reference for both (it is not part of EU canon either, only the EU itself is).

As yerssot has said, only the primary stories directly from GL, as far as the storyline is concerned, count as film canon- as mentioned by GL in interview and by Lucasfilm's Continuity and Production Department inside Star Wars Insider. As far as outside the story is concerned, obviously anything GL says about his own work is canon. Other than that nothing else- nothing at ALL- has any claim at canonicity, from the website to the enyclopedias. The very fact they contain mistakes demonstrates this- canon sources can't be mistaken as what they say is automatically true unless it is specifically recognised by the makers to be an error- like the ROTJ rank badges.

Try approaching things from a less detached and doubtful view. If you want to be informed first hand, go check things yourself. This is a discussion area and you can either believe what I say or not but I am not going to continually repeat myself over references I have given a hundred times just to please your doubt on what I say- all my GL quotes are VERY easy to look up if you so wish to. Whether you know us or not, it is still very galling to have you come in here from nowhere and immediately imply that my GL quote might be inaccurate or twisted; this isn't a history essay with an annotated list of source material. If you could gather stuff that contradicts or disproves what I say then by all means do so but to simply make out in public that you do not believe it shows a certain want of grace and community spirit. It MIGHT be better if you appreciated the fact that some of us here know a heck of a lot about which we are talking.

I DO appreciate that you are only trying to approach things from an objective perspective... but really, that wasn't a very friendly way to go about it.

Member, 'EU' is the Expanded Universe, a collective term for all Star Wars stories not written by George Lucas himself- the books, the games, the comics etc.

Well, first of all, I specified that there was no reason to doubt what you said about the Sith.

Secondly, Starwars.com is NOT the Mouth of Lucas. He doesn't write it. Insider is not the mouth of Lucas either. But the Continuity and Production department ARE the people charged by Lucas with keeping this whole canon thing organised. Insider was not trying to be canonical, it was simply interviewing the people who are responsible for deciding what is and what isn't, and they described that as such, so your point there is irrelevant.

When in a discussion in THIS area, the film area, about the Sith, then a clear distinction must ALWAYS be made between what is and isn't canonical. When someone asks the question they did, then only canon sources can be counted as TRUE. Anyone else can give whatever opinion, from whatever soruce, that they like, but it must NOT be represented as undeniably factual, as Altar did, and we were entirely within our rights to point that out to him. Likewise I acknowledged what you said about the Sith but pointed out that the website was not canon either. The question was asked about why there were only two Sith; I gave the ONLY canonical comment on that that exists.

It was a costuming error that caused the ROTJ problem but it is odd to make out that therefore other sources can be as canonical as GL. Other sources are not people making accidental errors, they are sources saying things that are simply not true- or more to the point, not canon. They are trying to fill gaps but they do them with no canonical power at all. What the website says about who founded th Sith and so on is all very well and good but it has no canonical status and therefore is open to debate; what is canon is NOT debatable.

As I say, I would rather, if you are doubting a quote of mine, that you took the trouble to check it out rather than coming in here and flat out suggesting that it might be false. A search through these forums would find what you need. And if you think I was remiss in not giving the source- which, as I point out, is only because I have done it a dozen times before- then you were at least equally remiss in not simply asking "Where did you get that quote from, Ush?" instead of suggesting that what I said might have no value. Knowing us or not, that was a brusque way to go about things.

About right and wrong- let us be very clear here. It is not US who sets what is and is not canon. It is not US who says these canonical things. LUCASFILM sets what is canon. The canon sources themselves say what they say. Opinion no longer enters into it. The reason we are right when we say these things is that we ARE right. No discussion as to debating things canonical, or disputing Lucasfilm's own canon policy, can possibly be entered into. it is what it is and that is simply not up for debate. So do not confuse our reportage of what is true and undebatable with us somehow assuming that everything we say is right and what others say is wrong. What the canon sources says is right. What Lucasfilm says is canon is so. We don't THINK what the channels are. It is not our opinion. We have taken the time to get to KNOW what they are, in the same way that the complete opposite is true with the Matrix storyline, with all of its 'EU' equivalent being canonical. That is how it is, end of story.

Discuss the Sith from various soruces as much as you like but be prepared to be continued to be told when your sources are non-canonical and therefore not certain, because it is important that these things be distinguished. Altar refused to accept this- he may as well dispute that red is red- and he did it without any grace and that is why things got as they did. I don't go screaming blue murder every time someone posts EU here- I simply point out the issue- but someone giving attitude back when things have been made clear to them is unlikely to receive courtesy in return. He may have been wound up by Finti saying that EU was worthless but that was just an opinion and no reason to accuse us of arrogance just because yerssot pointed out the facts.

If GL or Lucasfilm change their mind about what is and isn't canon then so will we, but until that time things will remain as they are.

These ARE discussion forums, and they have worked perfectly well on this basis for several years. The primacy of canonicity is vital to that but that by no means means that there is no room for discussion and debate. My GL quote was designed to answer the question for the poster and cannot be denied, but "I doubt any proper Sith training can start until he is on the Dark Side" is an opinion- debate that all you want. Likewise for your quote from the site, if anyone has reason to.

Now, this rambling achieves nothing. Let us bring things back to topic, please. If you have further comments about this particualr problem, make them in private.

I'm going to post one last reply, only because my overall point in this is meant for more than one person, and not even really the person I would have sent it to.

I don't debate that GL is the king on all this. His word is law, nor do I so much question the quotes I've seen. If this was a friendlier thread, I wouldn't have even asked about where it originally came from. The only thing that gets me is this- GL could very well have said things that are on other non canonical sources, and he very well could not have. It's just that all I see is the "It's not canonical" defense, and the idea is dropped. When someone makes a direct quote from him, just say so, that's cool, we know its truth. When someone says they heard stuff elsewhere, there's no need to constantly remind the person that its not canon and its worthless. That's just as obnoxious as people like Altar.

I mean, Usharrak, you've been pointing out stuff that I've mentioned that isn't very nice, and I'll work on that. Again, under different circumstances, there'd be no gripe. In this case, though, I'm trying to say that it's not very nice of those who've hounded others without canonical sources. It's very frustrating to be constantly told that what I'm saying is invalid. I just want to say what I've heard/read/seen without others dogging my every word. I mean, face it, I don't follow GL that well, so I don't have any quotes for anything. I hear stuff elsewhere, I write it down for others to see, and then I get berated for its validity. That's kind of deterring, don't you think? Altar deserved what he got, mind you, but my concern is that the treatment he was delivered is reserved for more than just the idiots. I've posted to other forums and seen similar kinds of attitudes, but nowhere have I seen it as much as I have with the Star Wars people. Their passion is apparent. I'm just making a suggestion to keep these threads friendlier to those that have something to say without official backing.

I have to admit though, when you put these two sentences together, it sounds kind of funny:

"These ARE discussion forums, and they have worked perfectly well on this basis for several years. The primacy of canonicity is vital to that but that by no means means that there is no room for discussion and debate."

No room for discussion? And these are discussion forums?

Obviously you are having trouble understanding- that sentence clearly says that it by NO MEANS means there is no room for discussion. Yeah? As in the primacy of canonicity is no impediment to discussion and debate. But if you don't like the fact that non-canon sources will get relatively shorter shrift, then sorry, but you will just have to live with that.

Also, next time I say things should move on, then move things on. I said clearly I did not want this to carry on in public, and you directly defied that- your motivation for that does not interest me, that the threads are kept in good order and the mods listened to does. Please- when mods make a decision on a thread then follow it. Any more off-topic comments will be deleted.

you guys REALLY need to chill out. this is getting very hostile. the dark side, i sense in you two.....

more like the senate, well any thoughts about the sith order that aint written in some eu books

zanex. lots and lots of zanex.

I guess not then, Finti...