Dawn of Time Anti-Monitor runs the gauntlet...

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TheLordofMurder
The Anti-Montor, with the incredible amount of power he amassed at the Dawn of Time, runs the following gauntlet...

The Anti-Monitor is restored to full strength after each round and all battles are to the Death or KO with no BFR...


1) 2000ft Asgardian Destroyer...
2) Adult Franklin Richards...
3) The 4th Celestial Host...
4) The Galactus Engine...
5) Zero Hour Parallax...
6) Black Celestial Arc Galactus...
7) The Living Tribunal...
8) Scathan...
9) Pre-retcon Molecule Man...

Once again, how far for Dawn of Time Anti-Monitor get?

Cogito
Stops at 7

TheGodKiller
6.

yaadaveyaa
is he that much more powerful then franky?

sCOURGE_0
Stops at 7 although I don't know what Scathan is so high

ThereIsHope
Scathan is suppose to have stoped a mutant or someone who not even the LT could have. I dont think the LT should be so high. He has failed fighting Korvac and said mutant. He even was beaten by a gun invented by Reed Richards. But I believe he was retconned. In the beginning. There was no avatars for the LT now there are.

ThereIsHope
The question is. Are we dealing with THEE LT that is suppose to hold Megaverses in his hands? Or an avatar who loses to Korvac.

Mr Master
^^^ There's no such thing as LT "weaker avatars" ... and never have been.

The LT is the LT full and complete every single time from its conception.
Originally posted by ThereIsHope

dont think the LT should be so high.

He has failed fighting Korvac and said mutant.

He even was beaten by a gun invented by Reed Richards.

The LT has never ever battled Korvac.
In fact, Korvac has never even seen the LT.
The LT never attacked Korvac directly.

Reed beat the LT? laughing (sorry, for that one, I can only lol)

Originally posted by ThereIsHope

In the beginning. There was no avatars for the LT now there are.
There were no avatars Then or Now.

The LT is one of Marvel's Conceptual Abstract ideas taking form. (Judgement)

All Marvel Concepts (Eternity and so on)
employ "M-bodys" to manifest their full power and selves.

ThereIsHope
Korvac fought LT in a WHAT IF comic. The LT has an M body. or else your saying tha the LT failed?

The M-BODY did not exist for the LT in the beginning. He was THE LT in every appearance. Now he has an M-body unless I am Mistaken. The point is he lost to Korvac, and to Reed Richards in an alternate universe.

TheLordofMurder
@Whoever believes that this version of the Anti-Monitor cant get past 1...

What would you be basing a 2000ft Destroyer win upon!? LoL...

Please, please, show yourself so the rest of us can point at you and laugh...

TheLordofMurder
@Mr Master

Arent all showings made by the LT canon for the LT as it is unique?

I am prettty sure thats what the consensus is around here and with that being said, ThereIsHope is absolutely correct; the LT lost to an alt Korvac and to Reed Richards...

Now did he job in those showings? Absolutely given what he is supposed to be, but thats a different topic...

But its pretty clear to me; the LT is not undefeated and is not immune to jobber syndrome...

pym-ftw
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@Mr Master

Arent all showings made by the LT canon for the LT as it is unique?

I am prettty sure thats what the consensus is around here and with that being said, ThereIsHope is absolutely correct; the LT lost to an alt Korvac and to Reed Richards...

Now did he job in those showings? Absolutely given what he is supposed to be, but thats a different topic...

But its pretty clear to me; the LT is not undefeated and is not immune to jobber syndrome...
What ifs are non Canon, but yes all LT's are the same

Probaly 6

ThereIsHope
What If's are alternate universes and you admitted there all the same.

Mr Master
Originally posted by ThereIsHope



1) Korvac fought LT in a WHAT IF comic.

2) The LT has an M body. or else your saying tha the LT failed?

3) The M-BODY did not exist for the LT in the beginning.
He was THE LT in every appearance.
Now he has an M-body unless I am Mistaken.

4) The point is he lost to Korvac, and to Reed Richards in an alternate universe.
1) Please show me, or direct me, to the "What If" comic where "Korvac fought the LT."
(because for the guy who made his Respect thread, I sure did miss that one)

2) "M-bodys" make absolutely NO difference as to the Concepts power,
M-body, no body = same amount of power!
M-body is simply a form given to a formless sentience, through said form,
formless entities exercise their full power.

3) #2 Answer takes care of this.

4) Waiting on that issue where LT lost to Korvac,
and I also wanna see the LT and Reed battling where Reed won. laughing out loud

------------------------------

You're gonna have ta bare with my antics, I'm kinda stoned right now,
I know exactly what you're referring too concerning Reed, Korvac and LT,
but I see you really have no idea on the context behind the
selective scans that misleads anyone who didn't read the stories.

When whoever attempts to pull out What IF #32 or Last Planet Standing,
I gots the scanned reality of what really took place,
and how the LT never lost to Korvac who Never confronted him btw, or
Reed via that stipulated plot induced bull shit
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder

@Mr Master

1) Arent all showings made by the LT canon for the LT as it is unique?

2) I am prettty sure thats what the consensus is around here and with
that being said, ThereIsHope is absolutely correct; the LT lost to an alt
Korvac and to Reed Richards...

3) Now did he job in those showings?
Absolutely given what he is supposed to be, but thats a different topic...

4) But its pretty clear to me; the LT is not undefeated
and is not immune to jobber syndrome...
1) Yes.

2) I'm waiting for Hope to show me where the LT ever battled Reed,
and also where Korvac ever confronted the LT.
I guess I can ask the same of you.

3) I'm ready to talk about it,
cause yall are a bit confused about what happened in those stories.

4) The LT's only lost is to THOTI. (TOAA's in-universe power)
The only other thing to clearly be above the LT was Protege & Scathan.
(but that's about 1000 years from now so ... meh)

TheLordofMurder
@Mr Master

2) Think of Reed vs the LT like this:
a)The LT's goal in that comic was to nuke everything in the way (which would have included Earth) to stop Galactus...
b) Reed's plan; stop the Tribunal and the rest of the cosmics from nuking Earth...

Aftermath: The Living Tribunal gets the crap nuked out of him and Earth is spared the Tribunals threat...

The Tribunals plan=failed.
Reeds plan=success!

Reed>>The Living Tribunal in that story arc...


Korvac vs the LT:
a) LT's plan; to render his ultimate judgement upon Korvac..
b) Korvacs plan; to shield himself from that "ultimate judgement"...

Aftermath: The Living Tribunal told the remaining cosmics good luck, fled that universe like a coward, slammed the door shut, and locked it behind him...

The Living Tribunals plan=fail.
Korvacs plan=success!

Korvac>>The Living Tribunal in that arc...


So no...I am not confused at all about what happened in those stories...

Galan007
AM steamrolls through 1-6. Stops cold at 7.

Mr Master
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder

@Mr Master

2) Think of Reed vs the LT like this:
a)The LT's goal in that comic was to nuke everything in the way
(which would have included Earth) to stop Galactus...
b) Reed's plan; stop the Tribunal and the rest of the cosmics from
nuking Earth...

Aftermath: The Living Tribunal gets the crap nuked out of him and
Earth is spared the Tribunals threat...

The Tribunals plan=failed.
Reeds plan=success!

Reed>>The Living Tribunal in that story arc...
So Reed never battled the LT and won.

That's what I wanted yall to understand.

Btw. The LT didn't get "the crap nuked out of him" lol

The LT's power in combination with the most of the cosmic hierarchy power
Merged ... (making a ball/bomb of energy)
then Reed (unbeknownst to the Cosmics' senses) laughing out loud
shot his canon into That concentration of power (ball/bomb)
This cause a feedback (of their own powers) and bfr'd the Cosmics into other dimensions.

So yea, under those circumstances,
where we have a less than omniscient LT,
(who needs help to off an Alternate Galactus) no expression
who decides to Merged his power with the Abstracts into a ball of energy,
and has said ball of energy to be used against him
with a blast coming from Many miles away by some canon built to kill that Alt G,
yea, then give Reed that constricted scenario and he meets that objective all the time.

Now, although the writer attempted to explain away the
monumental nonsense of this, it still borders on one of the worst
(and historically unrelated) portrayals of the LT.

I still haven't seen this story recognized in any bio to date.

I'm glad about that.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder

Korvac vs the LT:
a) LT's plan; to render his ultimate judgement upon Korvac..
b) Korvacs plan; to shield himself from that "ultimate judgement"...

Aftermath: The Living Tribunal told the remaining cosmics good luck, fled that universe like a coward, slammed the door shut, and locked it behind him...

The Living Tribunals plan=fail.
Korvacs plan=success!

Korvac>>The Living Tribunal in that arc...
So Korvac never battled the LT and won.

That's what I wanted yall to understand.

You say Korvac shielded himself from supposed ultimate judgement,
when 1) Korvac didn't know the LT was ever there
2) Korvac never knew he was being attacked
3) I don't know, you don't know who shielded Korvac's world (perhaps Death)

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15088837_Korvac.jpg

Makes little difference, it was just the local Sun going Nova that was tanked.

Anyway, "ultimate judgement" my ass.

LT didn't strike Korvac once with his own power.

I rather take his "ultimate judgement" in that What IF when he ripped Korvac's entire Universe from the Multiverse to seal it away
in an impenetrable barrier which Korvac himself could not escape.

That silly Sun going Nova garbage was the writer getting the LT out of there,
so Korvac can erase that Universe with the UN since that was the plot.

That's another thing right there:

I can't destroy a single universe > LT? no

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder

So no...I am not confused at all about what happened in those stories...
hmm ...

zopzop
Stop at the Galactus Engine (which I believe is MORE powerful than BCA Galactus).

@ Mr Master
I sorta agree with LoM on this one my friend. I just chalk it up to PIS or low showings.

But I do agree with you that some outside force (Death) saved Korvac. Remember that scan I posted a while back showing Death's visage in Korvac's shadow?

leonidas
Originally posted by Galan007
AM steamrolls through 1-6. Stops cold at 7.

sounds mostly right to me, but i wonder about 7. i think both companies have shown SOME inclination toward equating spectre and lt. maybe not a direct correlation, but....both have been kinda/sorta depicted as being the 'voices' of the ones above all. clearly they have some differences as well, along with some inconsistent showings, but i'm speaking in a more general sense. imo, it's pretty easy to envision LT playing the spectre's role in coie. if we go by that particular assumption, i'm not so sure i agree that he stops cold there. lt has also been given a chance to evolve some as a character, which colours our impressions, and the term 'cosmic' has taken on new depths and new meanings. i think it's a lot closer if we compare that era's lt with coie am.

scathan is an anomaly that really can't be explained and shouldn't be included in these types of comparisons imo. owen obviously had some crazy uber feats, but...i have a hard time seeing own winning here. not sure why. again, i guess i have to fall back on the intent of the writers of coie, and just what am was intended to be and represent. if i put owen in that story, i just don't see him being the one responsible for stopping am, or being able to overpower him. maybe it's just me. shrug

TheLordofMurder
@Mr Master

As PIS'y as they were, the Tribunal failed at his goal in both senario's...

He had a specific agenda that he wanted to achieve and both characters stopped him; yes it was definitely PIS, but the showings were canon to the LT and he lost...

PIS of the highest order? Most definitely...

TheLordofMurder
@Mr Master

I had to check the actual comic to be certain, but the LT himself says:
"By the universal constant! Is Korvacs power so vast that he can shield his world from my righteous retribution? I have meted out my ultimate punishment, yet Korvac stands unrepentant! I can do no more! I shall have to give up the universe for lost!"


See, even your claim that Korvac didnt know he was under attack from the LT is a lie as the LT himself believes that Korvac shielded Earth from his wrath...

Now Mr Master, I hope you arent intentionally lying just to try and win an argument...


As PIS'y as it was, the LT failed against Korvac and had to flee...

It happened to the LT and was canon (as pertains to the LT)...

Thats all she wrote...

Happy Dance

TheLordofMurder
Here is the scan btw...even though it isnt at a good resolution:

Mr Master
Originally posted by zopzop

@ Mr Master
I sorta agree with LoM on this one my friend.

I just chalk it up to PIS or low showings.
So long as we understand Korvac nor Reed
ever confronted/faced/battled the LT and won or lost since well ...
it never happened.
Originally posted by zopzop

But I do agree with you that some outside force (Death) saved Korvac.
Remember that scan I posted a while back showing Death's visage in Korvac's shadow?
thumb up
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@Mr Master

As PIS'y as they were, the Tribunal failed at his goal in both senario's...

He had a specific agenda that he wanted to achieve and both
characters stopped him; yes it was definitely PIS, but the showings
were canon to the LT and he lost...

PIS of the highest order? Most definitely...
Originally posted by Mr Master

So Reed never battled the LT and won.

That's what I wanted yall to understand.

So Korvac never battled the LT and won.

That's what I wanted yall to understand.


I'll be back. Gotta burn right now. stoned

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@Mr Master

I had to check the actual comic to be certain, but the LT himself says:
"By the universal constant! Is Korvacs power so vast that he can shield his world from my righteous retribution? I have meted out my ultimate punishment, yet Korvac stands unrepentant! I can do no more! I shall have to give up the universe for lost!"


See, even your claim that Korvac didnt know he was under attack from the LT is a lie as the LT himself believes that Korvac shielded Earth from his wrath...

Now Mr Master, I hope you arent intentionally lying just to try and win an argument...


As PIS'y as it was, the LT failed against Korvac and had to flee...

It happened to the LT and was canon (as pertains to the LT)...

Thats all she wrote...

Happy Dance

Death had nothing to do with Korvac surviving the LT's wrath; Korvac did...

See the above...

Mr Master
^^ umm

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@Mr Master

I had to check the actual comic to be certain, but the LT himself says:
"By the universal constant! Is Korvacs power so vast that he can
shield his world from my righteous retribution? I have meted out
my ultimate punishment, yet Korvac stands unrepentant! I can do
no more! I shall have to give up the universe for lost!"

See, even your claim that Korvac didnt know he was under
attack from the LT is a lie as the LT himself believes that
Korvac shielded Earth from his wrath...

Now Mr Master,
I hope you arent intentionally lying just to try and win an argument...

As PIS'y as it was, the LT failed against Korvac and had to flee...
It happened to the LT and was canon (as pertains to the LT)...

Thats all she wrote...

Actually, she wrote a little more.

But before that I have a warning for ya.

I'll forgive ya once for accusing me of something I detest. (lies)

Don't do it again, and know what you're talking about before vomiting diarrhea.

I hate liars, trolls, or socks to support the parent/prime account.

Now, I never said the LT didn't know about Korvac,

I said Korvac DID NOT KNOW about the LT.

Now, go back to the book,
you'll realize the LT thought that,
but the writer shows us in the next page/panel,
it's actually Miss D that's doing something behind the scenes.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/15089013_D1.jpg

"The Eons-Old Stalemate between Eternity and Me has Ended
By My machinations, the Universe shall be mine"

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15088998_D2.jpg

"Death, Korvac's unbidden ally ... Death, Korvac's unwanted master"

------------------------------------------

Korvac and his love are puppets in Death's domain now, as he was in life.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/15089129_D3.jpg

--------------------------------------


Or .. you could post a non-existent page where Korvac braces for LT's attack.

Or how about ... Korvac even knowing the LT was ever there?

Good luck. smile

zopzop
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Death had nothing to do with Korvac surviving the LT's wrath; Korvac did...

See the above...
But there is VERY strong evidence he/she/it did. Never mind the narrator stating point plank that Death was Korvac's hidden ally and unbidden master.

The scan I posted of Death's grinning visage lurking in Korvac's shadow should seal the deal.

EDIT -
There he/she/it is right there, look closely and you'll see it :
http://imageshack.us/a/img209/3752/specialfriend.th.jpg

TheLordofMurder
Well you guys are speculating that Death had something to do with Korvac withstanding the LT's wrath; yes, she was clearly doing stuff behind the scenes, but you cant point to anything that clearly indicates that she was the one protecting him...

On the other hand, we have the LT clearly being in awe of Korvacs ability to protect himself from his wrath; this isnt speculation...the LT is speaking plainly about Michael Korvac.


@Mr Master

There is no diarrhea in my words; you made up that stuff about Korvac not knowing the LT was there as there is nothing to support that stance...

Especially when you have the LT himself being in awe of Korvacs "vast" power and ability to protect himself...

So yeah, you made that part up...which is a lie by definition.

Mr Master
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder

Well you guys are speculating that Death had something to do
with Korvac withstanding the LT's wrath; yes, she was clearly doing
stuff behind the scenes, but you cant point to anything that clearly
indicates that she was the one protecting him...

On the other hand, we have the LT clearly being in awe of Korvacs
ability to protect himself from his wrath; this isnt speculation...the
LT is speaking plainly about Michael Korvac.
OMG! Death shielded him from the Nova blast,
or He tanked a Sun going Nova.

That is awe-inspiring.
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder



@Mr Master

There is no diarrhea in my words; you made up that stuff about
Korvac not knowing the LT was there as there is nothing to support
that stance...

Especially when you have the LT himself being in awe of Korvacs
"vast" power and ability to protect himself...
I challenge you to produce a single depiction or statement from Korvac,
acknowledging he either braced himself for the LT's attack,
or recognizing he shunted LT's attack.

Oh no? You mean, the LT made the Sun go Nova and Korvac never noticed,
yet managed to what? Subconsciously protect himself?

Get this garbage out of here homie.
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder


So yeah, you made that part up...which is a lie by definition.
You Lie about me one more time and I'll report you then ignore you for life.

Real simple. smile

Lord Feron
i didnt read all that but LT even in what ifs is the same LT meaning whatever LT does or happens to it is canon? (question directed at anyone that can answer it).

Mr Master
Originally posted by Lord Feron

i didnt read all that but LT even in what ifs is the same LT meaning
whatever LT does or happens to it is canon? (question directed at
anyone that can answer it).
Absolutely. What we're discussing is what actually happened.

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by Mr Master
OMG! Death shielded him from the Nova blast,
or He tanked a Sun going Nova.

That is awe-inspiring.

I challenge you to produce a single depiction or statement from Korvac,
acknowledging he either braced himself for the LT's attack,
or recognizing he shunted LT's attack.

Oh no? You mean, the LT made the Sun go Nova and Korvac never noticed,
yet managed to what? Subconsciously protect himself?

Get this garbage out of here homie.

You Lie about me one more time and I'll report you then ignore you for life.

Real simple. smile

If you want to report me, go right ahead...my stance wont change one bit...and your report wont go anywhere as my position is rock solid.

The same goes for you ignoring me; I wont lose any sleep...


The point remains; the LT himself believes that Korvac shielded himself...

That point is indisputable...

There really isnt anymore to be said pertaining to this issue as it would be speculation or falsehood...

ThereIsHope
The part about death doing the protecting is just speculation. Did you even mention Oblivion? Is death thus more powerful then LT? If death is stronger then LT then why didnt Death own Thanos when he had the IG.

deathlife
Originally posted by Galan007
AM steamrolls through 1-6. Stops cold at 7.

This.

Mr Master
Originally posted by ThereIsHope
The part about death doing the protecting is just speculation.
Is death thus more powerful then LT?

Death protected the Earth from a Sun's Nova effect, Not from the LT's actual power.

That's what's funny cause yall seem to overlook that.

Even if Korvac had done it himself, it still would say absolutely Nothing,
about Korvac's power next to the LT's,
just like it says nothing about Death's power next to the LT.

Now, had the LT shot a force bolt from his hand like he can
and either Death or Korvac block/survive that,
then we have something to really discuss with serious WTF all over it.

But it was no big deal what happened.

The Writer was smart to use that asinine move by the LT,
allowing plot to follow its course and have Korvac erase reality with the UN.

Well, at-least he has the LT disconnect that Korvac's entire Universe from the Multiverse.

Yea, he can that, but decides to use a freakin star as a weapon. no expression

... Silly 1982 What IF ...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder

If you want to report me, go right ahead...my stance wont change
one bit...and your report wont go anywhere as my position is rock solid.
The same goes for you ignoring me; I wont lose any sleep...

The point remains; the LT himself believes that Korvac shielded himself...

That point is indisputable...

There really isnt anymore to be said pertaining to this issue as it
would be speculation or falsehood...
Still nothing I see but the one line that confuses you
since you haven't read the entire story.

Again, we already established FAR before you joined This Forum,
that the LT knew about Korvac, was aware of Korvac, and attacked
Korvac INDIRECTLY!

On the Otherhand .. the argument HERE is:

Let me know when you produce that page
where Korvac acknowledged the LT was ever there,
or where Korvac braced himself for LT's retarded attack (making a sun go nova)
or where Korvac is shown shielding the Earth from the Nova blast,
or where Korvac ever attacked the LT,
or how about LT and Korvac ever confronting each other and Korvac is aware.

Heck, my son,
Korvac never even realized his Earth had just survived a Sun going Nova,
he was relishing in his power on land, OBLIVIOUS to what just happened!

Anyway, Korvac was able to one shot kill and absorb the In-Betweener,
who had escaped to his own disconnected Dimension:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15092945_K.jpg

Interesting ... after the Earth survives via a mysterious shield,
Korvac doesn't attack the LT who's at the center of the Galaxy.

In fact, the illustration and narration points to Korvac NEVER knew what happened!

-------------------------------------------

Korvac found out there were so called "Galactic powers" assembled against him,
but he had NO idea who they were.

He took them on as they warped into his vicinity,
and he was able to locate the In-Betweener because the Stranger
tricked IB into giving it away.

Korvac NEVER knew the LT was there.

Korvac never even knew he had just survived the LT's judgement.

-------------------------------------------


Meh .. back in Mar. 2007 ... I still felt the same about this subject:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t446630.html

-------------------------------------------


Anyway, for the future, if you wanna continue to have cool debates we can do that,
but be respectful, and never accuse me of lying, like ever again.

I joined KMC nearly 7 Years ago, and in my 17,000 + posts there isn't a single intentional lie.

Remember that dogs ... and any true "senior" member can attest to that.

I can be wrong, and I have acknowledged it when I have been,
but never under the blanket of deliberate fabrications or half-truths.

Just sayin, be careful, disrespecting true debaters around here can give rise to a crusade of ignore buttons that will make you feel kinda lonely.

Now, time to burn. stoned

ThereIsHope
Thats a bullcrap. Its never stated on panal that Death ever did anything. Its all in your head.

TheLordofMurder
@Mr Master

Length of time here has absloutely no meaning as pertains this topic as someone who's been here 10000 years can still be wrong; at the same time, someone who's only been here 10 minutes can be right...

As pertains "true debaters," that includes anyone thats capable of forming a rational argument...

So no, you and all your scans makes your arguments no better than anyone elses...


As pertains this issue, you continue to speculate; I have the LT's words on the other hand...

Once again, the LT believed that Korvac shielded the Earth from his judgement...

Thats far more solid evidence than "I think Death did it."


As pertains it not being impressive, well the LT decided to get the hell out of there didnt he?

After Korvac survived his wrath, he told the other cosmics "LoL!!" and ran off with his tail between his legs...

leonidas
Originally posted by ThereIsHope
Korvac fought LT in a WHAT IF comic. The LT has an M body. or else your saying tha the LT failed?

The M-BODY did not exist for the LT in the beginning. He was THE LT in every appearance. Now he has an M-body unless I am Mistaken. The point is he lost to Korvac, and to Reed Richards in an alternate universe.

i agree lt uses m-bodies, and imo an m-body may or may not manifest the full power of whichever entity is houses. a varying degree of power has always been a simple and logical way to explain the differences (or inconsistent natures) of the power demonstrated by some abstracts in different issues. a logical way to explain away pis imo. it also explains away any paradoxes that arise from the existence of m-bodies existing at the same time.

not sure he lost to korvac as you suggest though--rather he failed in an attempt to destroy him outright (as he was clearly intending to do). he did succeed in sealing him off, but the fact that he was unable to snap his fingers and make him disappear is some testament to korvac's power--especially in an era where cosmics were defined differently than they are now. without direct conflict though, can't really go out on a limb and say he 'beat' lt, though it seems reasonable to say korvac was sufficiently powerful to have survived his wrath (perhaps unknowlingly)--such as it was. NOT a feat to be taken lightly at all imo.

zopzop
Originally posted by leonidas
i agree lt uses m-bodies, and imo an m-body may or may not manifest the full power of whichever entity is houses. a varying degree of power has always been a simple and logical way to explain the differences (or inconsistent natures) of the power demonstrated by some abstracts in different issues. a logical way to explain away pis imo. it also explains away any paradoxes that arise from the existence of m-bodies existing at the same time.

not sure he lost to korvac as you suggest though--rather he failed in an attempt to destroy him outright (as he was clearly intending to do). he did succeed in sealing him off, but the fact that he was unable to snap his fingers and make him disappear is some testament to korvac's power--especially in an era where cosmics were defined differently than they are now. without direct conflict though, can't really go out on a limb and say he 'beat' lt, though it seems reasonable to say korvac was sufficiently powerful to have survived his wrath (perhaps unknowlingly)--such as it was. NOT a feat to be taken lightly at all imo.
Leo, you realize though that the LT's "ultimate" punishment was making a star go nova?

Heralds have survived worst than that.

I also find it hillarious that he wasn't scared of the LT or the other cosmics but panicked at the sight of an alien armada laughing

Mr Master
^^ laughing ... to be fair though ...

Korvac Never even knew the LT was ever there,
or, that the LT tried to fry his planet.
Korvac was completely oblivious to what happened.

There's also the fact, that there's no proof of any kind even alluding
to M-body's manifesting in varying amounts of power. (on panel or otherwise)

We do have the Marvel sponsored Marvunapp site telling us in plain english:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/anthropo.htm

powers & abilities:

"Like all natives of his realm (Fractals that form M-bodies)
He (Anthro/M-body) can assume a physical form for non-physical or abstract beings.
These forms have access to the full power of the original being"


Originally posted by TheLordofMurder

@Mr Master

Length of time here has absloutely no meaning as pertains this
topic as someone who's been here 10000 years can still be wrong;
at the same time, someone who's only been here 10 minutes can
be right...
Well then,
I see now not only are you a victim of intransigence,
but you also post blindly.

I never said anything about "length of time" at KMC making one right all (or any) the time.

In FACT,
I clearly pointed out how I CAN be WRONG! But I NEVER have LIED!!!

WTF are you talking about kid?

I was referring to my untainted Reputation at kmc concerning the
length of time I've been here, for your newby self to pop up and try
to call me a liar.
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder

As pertains "true debaters,"
that includes anyone thats capable of forming a rational argument...

So no, you and all your scans makes your arguments no better than anyone elses...
That's your opinion of a "true debater" ... this isn't politics homie.

"True debater" to me/us, is not only a "rational argument" (plenty of those to go around)
It's actually proving many times over you Know wft you're talking about,
with concrete proof. (facts with on panel depictions backed by
handbooks (if possible) doesn't need an argument behind it to give it substance)
The "rational" theory/idea/opinion part of a post should for meaning/understanding to something that's not clear cut.
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder

As pertains this issue, you continue to speculate;
I have the LT's words on the other hand...

Once again, the LT believed that Korvac shielded the Earth from his judgement...

Thats far more solid evidence than "I think Death did it."
Well, at-least you're not speculating, you just don't know the story.
You actually believe what you're saying so I can't blame you for that.

Once again, the LT "believed that Korvac shielded the Earth from his judgement"

And Yet ...
Korvac never acknowledged he had just protected the Earth from the LT,
Korvac never acknowledged he had just protected the Earth from a Sun going Nova,
Korvac never attacked the LT, like he did everyone else even IB who was in ANOTHER Dimension,
yet,
somehow decided not to attack the LT who from the center of the Galaxy,
just tried to incinerate him & his planet? laughing

Wait ... LOL!

Korvac attacked Everyone that tried anything against him,
why not the LT, oh, and Order and Chaos who survived as well?

Because Korvac NEVER knew the LT, Chaos & Order were ever there.

Because Order & Chaos never attacked Korvac so they didn't register.

Because the LT attacked from the center of the Galaxy, unnoticed,
while Death shielded the Earth from that Sun going Nova,
and Korvac NEVER knew what agenda-minded miss Death did for him,
heck, according to art and narration,
we can say Korvac NEVER even knew what just happened.

This is Why we know he didn't actively protect Earth form the Nova blast.

Besides the fact that the Writer made it clear: (next page/panel AFTER the Nova blast)



Further confirmation Death is manipulating this comedy:





See there homie,
Korvac along with the only other powerful victims of the UN,
chilling in Death's realm, and your mighty LT scaring Korvac is a mere puppet.

Good to see the horseshit of that What IF reconciled with that depiction.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder

As pertains it not being impressive,
well the LT decided to get the hell out of there didnt he?

After Korvac survived his wrath, he told the other cosmics "LoL!!"
and ran off with his tail between his legs...
Tanking, or shielding one's self from a Nova (not even super nova) blast,
is cute,
but hardly anything to lift a brow at concerning the powers at play here.

So, yea, I'm not impressed like at all.

Oh and yes, the LT decided to get out of there after doing ...

... oh right, practically Nothing.

Well, that's not true,
the LT did rip Korvac's entire Universe form the Multiverse,
but decided to use a single puny Sun as a weapon instead of his own power. no expression

leonidas
Originally posted by zopzop
Leo, you realize though that the LT's "ultimate" punishment was making a star go nova?

Heralds have survived worst than that.

I also find it hilarious that he wasn't scared of the LT or the other cosmics but panicked at the sight of an alien armada laughing

and you need to recall that when the issue was written, a supernova was pretty 'scientific' and was associated with a tremendous amount of power. lt was also viewed somewhat differently, and depictions of cosmic battles and events were also somewhat different. if you lose track of the era in which the events occurred, you lose a lot of referential info that goes a lonngggg way toward clarifying context that may not be valid any longer.

compared the first star wars movie with any current major sci-fi flick. comics need to be viewed through a similar lens, imo.

as far as m-bodies--there is likewise no proof whatsoever (aside from one site which says they HAVE access to their full power, which of course is precisely what i said....i simply added that while they CAN have full access, they do not NEED full access....) that every m-body possesses the complete power of an abstract every time. assuming they do leads to cries of pis to explain away certain events and leads to paradoxes where more than one m-body exists at a time--and since time means little to some of these beings, that can be a definite problem to explain away.

anywho, not the place, and an old topic of debate. people are more than welcome as always to choose whichever opinion they prefer.

Branlor Swift
Originally posted by leonidas
and you need to recall that when the issue was written, a supernova was pretty 'scientific' and was associated with a tremendous amount of power. lt was also viewed somewhat differently, and depictions of cosmic battles and events were also somewhat different. if you lose track of the era in which the events occurred, you lose a lot of referential info that goes a lonngggg way toward clarifying context that may not be valid any longer.

compared the first star wars movie with any current major sci-fi flick. comics need to be viewed through a similar lens, imo. Surfer's first appearance has him surviving a nova.

In 1988 Nova blew up a star point blank and everyone was like "woah, we better get out of this black hole because that star blowing up did shit but create a black hole"

leonidas
and in an early appearance by mephisto surfer actually overpowered him. and black holes STILL receive respect from time to time.

i'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or not. shrug

in any event, my point was comics, like all media (see what the kids sections of bookstores look like today as opposed to 1982) have undergone change. clearly they are more subject to close scrutiny, writers and artists are far more accessible to their audience and are, as a result, held more closely accountable for their work. imo, i think these kinds of things need to be taken into account sometimes in order to fully grasp the context surrounding older feats and events to better gauge what was really intended. in some cases, (this one for instance, a lot but not all--of pre-crisis dc) i just think they need to be viewed relative to their real life eras. but again, maybe that's just me.

kgkg
Originally posted by leonidas
and in an early appearance by mephisto surfer actually overpowered him. and black holes STILL receive respect from time to time.

i'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or not. shrug

in any event, my point was comics, like all media (see what the kids sections of bookstores look like today as opposed to 1982) have undergone change. clearly they are more subject to close scrutiny, writers and artists are far more accessible to their audience and are, as a result, held more closely accountable for their work. imo, i think these kinds of things need to be taken into account sometimes in order to fully grasp the context surrounding older feats and events to better gauge what was really intended. in some cases, (this one for instance, a lot but not all--of pre-crisis dc) i just think they need to be viewed relative to their real life eras. but again, maybe that's just me. Agreed. thumb up

As for black holes I don't think it's a more of a time but how the writer view Black holes. It goes from being capable of hurting Galactus/Thanos etc to being a complete joke.

Black holes are unreliable when trying to gauge power-levels to say the least.

ThereIsHope
Black holes are black holes. The writer should use his brain.

Galan007
Originally posted by leonidas
sounds mostly right to me, but i wonder about 7. i think both companies have shown SOME inclination toward equating spectre and lt. maybe not a direct correlation, but....both have been kinda/sorta depicted as being the 'voices' of the ones above all. clearly they have some differences as well, along with some inconsistent showings, but i'm speaking in a more general sense. imo, it's pretty easy to envision LT playing the spectre's role in coie. if we go by that particular assumption, i'm not so sure i agree that he stops cold there. lt has also been given a chance to evolve some as a character, which colours our impressions, and the term 'cosmic' has taken on new depths and new meanings. i think it's a lot closer if we compare that era's lt with coie am. I can agree with this.

Originally posted by zopzop
Stop at the Galactus Engine (which I believe is MORE powerful than BCA Galactus). Neither were that great, imo. BCA Galactus had a LOT of potential, but he was ultimately killed by nullifying his universe-- a feat well within AM's ability. And toward the end of the Thanos Imperative, 616 Galactus was able to hold off the GE by himself for a period of time... So I don't think it was really that powerful either-- that is to say: I don't see it enduring an anti-matter wave. /shrug

zopzop
Originally posted by Galan007

Neither were that great, imo. BCA Galactus had a LOT of potential, but he was ultimately killed by nullifying his universe-- a feat well within AM's ability. And toward the end of the Thanos Imperative, 616 Galactus was able to hold off the GE by himself for a period of time... So I don't think it was really that powerful either-- that is to say: I don't see it enduring an anti-matter wave. /shrug
Well BCA Galactus was nothing but a sponge absorbing matter and energy. Unable to move or think. So he's a joke.

But the Galactus Engine was a whole other story. It withstood and overpowered the combined might of a Host of Celestials (at least 8 of them with Arishem there), Teneberous and Aegis, and Galactus.

It appeared they actually gave up and either ran away or had their M-Bodies destroyed (like Aegis' was).

Galactus was about finished too. It had him in it's tendrils until Mistress Death saved the day.

All that power AND unkillable except by the supreme Death abstract seals the deal.

TheLordofMurder
Well to get back on topic, I am shocked at the breakdown voting wise...


3 think the 2000ft Destroyer stops him (which is garbage until someone provides a compelling argument to why this is)...

3 think BCA Galactus stops him (which is within reason given what BCA Galactus could potentially do)...

3 think the LT could stop him (which is, again, reasonable given what a nonjobbing LT should be capable of)...

3 think he actually clears the gauntlet (I really want to know the thinking behind how he defeats Classic Owen as I cant see him getting past 9)...

2 think Owen stops him (which I can see as well; provided DoT AM even gets this far)...

1 thinks that Zero Hour Parallax beats him (which is pushing it IMHO; I'd love to hear the argument as to how Hal beats the AM)...

1 thinks Adult Franklin Richards beats him (which just doesnt seem possible to me given how powerful the AM was at the Dawn of Time; I'd love to hear how Franklin wins this fight)...


Anyone else want to support their respective votes with a rational argument?

Galan007
Originally posted by zopzop
Well BCA Galactus was nothing but a sponge absorbing matter and energy. Unable to move or think. So he's a joke.

But the Galactus Engine was a whole other story. It withstood and overpowered the combined might of a Host of Celestials (at least 8 of them with Arishem there), Teneberous and Aegis, and Galactus.

It appeared they actually gave up and either ran away or had their M-Bodies destroyed (like Aegis' was).

Galactus was about finished too. It had him in it's tendrils until Mistress Death saved the day.

All that power AND unkillable except by the supreme Death abstract seals the deal. Galactus was still able to hold of the GE by himself for a bit. thumb up

Batman-Prime
Clears it.

Branlor Swift
http://www.abload.de/img/0053_qbcy.gif

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Clears it.

How does he beat Classic Owen?

curryman
Originally posted by leonidas
in any event, my point was comics, like all media (see what the kids sections of bookstores look like today as opposed to 1982) have undergone change. clearly they are more subject to close scrutiny, writers and artists are far more accessible to their audience and are, as a result, held more closely accountable for their work. imo, i think these kinds of things need to be taken into account sometimes in order to fully grasp the context surrounding older feats and events to better gauge what was really intended. in some cases, (this one for instance, a lot but not all--of pre-crisis dc) i just think they need to be viewed relative to their real life eras. but again, maybe that's just me.

Really? Because I feel like a lot of writers still have free reign and the only thing that got killed was the exaggerated explanations and constant exposition.

The same amount of inconsistency still applies and in some cases I'd say it's gotten even worse.

ThereIsHope
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Well to get back on topic, I am shocked at the breakdown voting wise...


3 think the 2000ft Destroyer stops him (which is garbage until someone provides a compelling argument to why this is)...

3 think BCA Galactus stops him (which is within reason given what BCA Galactus could potentially do)...

3 think the LT could stop him (which is, again, reasonable given what a nonjobbing LT should be capable of)...

3 think he actually clears the gauntlet (I really want to know the thinking behind how he defeats Classic Owen as I cant see him getting past 9)...

2 think Owen stops him (which I can see as well; provided DoT AM even gets this far)...

1 thinks that Zero Hour Parallax beats him (which is pushing it IMHO; I'd love to hear the argument as to how Hal beats the AM)...

1 thinks Adult Franklin Richards beats him (which just doesnt seem possible to me given how powerful the AM was at the Dawn of Time; I'd love to hear how Franklin wins this fight)...


Anyone else want to support their respective votes with a rational argument?

The LT has been shown to be holding Megaverses, yet it has been shown to lose to Korvac, and thrown out of a universe by Reed Richards. Is Galactus Multiversal? I dont think that Parallax had a good hold on his powers.

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
How does he beat Classic Owen?

Antimatterwave.

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Antimatterwave.

Classic Owen could do anything he could think of and was only surpassed in raw power by Classic Beyonder...

You dont think Owen could protect himself from an anti-matter wave? Surely Owen could transform the wave into butterflies or turn himself into anti matter so that it wouldnt harm him pr any number of creative solutions for dealing with an anti-matter wave...

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Classic Owen could do anything he could think of and was only surpassed in raw power by Classic Beyonder...

You dont think Owen could protect himself from an anti-matter wave? Surely Owen could transform the wave into butterflies or turn himself into anti matter so that it wouldnt harm him pr any number of creative solutions for dealing with an anti-matter wave...

I don't think it would work as nothing worked against it.

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