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Tried to search this couldnt find it.. Both at their best

1.Which is more powerfull?
2.Which is more versatile?

=

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!!!!!

IMHO, they about equal but the Starbrand is cooler!

true

check ur pm

Ok Guy, check your PM now.

IG better feats

IG curbstomps effortlessly!

Originally posted by Mr Master
IG curbstomps effortlessly!

Where would you rank Star Brand compare to IG, Ultimate Nullifier, CCU,etc?

Originally posted by Mr Master
IG curbstomps effortlessly!
Careful Mr. M.

You see what's going down in the Avengers issues? Not looking good for the 616 IG

Starbrand is criminally underrated (I had to defend it in a matchup against a GL ring, ffs), but this still remains true: Originally posted by the Darkone
IG better feats

Starbrand is exactly where it should be. Less than the IG, but above in coolness. Lacking the drama and grotesque fandom of the IG and still a threat to be concerned about.

The dagger that can be slipped between the ribs of the unsuspecting IG.

The Blue-Collar IG.
The Ford Taurus SHO of comic book powers.
The "Sleeper" from the 'burbs, that ko's the cocky Heavyweight Champion of the World, (if he has a good coach).
He is unimpressed by Super Hero World Wars, Mutants in Perpetual '80's garb, Omnipotent-Characters-of-the-Week or the various clawed maniacs running around.
He is simply a regular guy, with a mark on his hand that makes him a BOSS. One of "the" true bosses with the staying power to stay, even when he was gone, taking his power with him.

Ladies and Gentlemen (and any other terms that may apply), I give you Ken. Deserving respect, but able to take it.

There are several Inky A$$e$ that need some on-panel BRANDING.
I believe that Kenny is just the guy to do it.

And, then, there will probably be many fanboy tears shed upon these electronic pages.

And, a thank you to zopzop, for the heads up. It's not easy to stay up on everything going on.

Granted the 616 IG is confirmed as a universal apparatus, but it still has feats that put it WAY above the SB... Heck not too long ago Doom used an alternate IG to create a universe from scratch.

Originally posted by zopzop
@Horrificus

Dude, look!

They go boom
Now keep in mind what's been going on in the series AND the preview solicits and I don't think this is a clear cut stomp in the IG's favor. If anything, I think the SB is making a BIG comeback.

But I don't want to jinx it, Marvel has a way of phucking things up.

mmm
Something definitely fishy going on. All gems explode except the time gem that was given to Beast by Charles.

Anyway I'm sure the gems prevail if the fight takes place in mainstream 616 for purposes relative to the vs forum.

Originally posted by Sundipped
mmm
Something definitely fishy going on. All gems explode except the time gem that was given to Beast by Charles. Xavier gave beast the mind gem.

They broke because LT said stop the shenanigans

Originally posted by Galan007
Xavier gave beast the mind gem.

Don't tell me you forgot his full name?
You slipping G.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Don't tell me you forgot his full name?
You slipping G. Huh?

^^
It's Professor Charles Xavier.
Now you're starting to scare me.

doh

Originally posted by Sundipped
^^
It's Professor Charles Xavier.
Now you're starting to scare me.
You crossed wires, Sundipped.
You said Xavier gave Beat the TIME Gem. Galan said he didn't, he gave him the MIND gem.

He knows Xavier's full name, he was just correcting you on the Gem Xavier gave Beast

Originally posted by Galan007
Granted the 616 IG is confirmed as a universal apparatus, but it still has feats that put it WAY above the SB... Heck not too long ago Doom used an alternate IG to create a universe from scratch.
I understand the point you're trying to make, but the feats of an alternate IG aren't interchangeable with the mainstream IG.

@Sundipped: Yeah, it was strange why the time gem simply disappeared instead of shattering like its brethren. Guess it probably has to do with some yet-to-be-revealed timestream mashup related to the multiversal catastrophe that Hickman's been building up in his Avengers issues.

Originally posted by zopzop
You crossed wires, Sundipped.
You said Xavier gave Beat the TIME Gem. Galan said he didn't, he gave him the MIND gem.

He knows Xavier's full name, he was just correcting you on the Gem Xavier gave Beast

Damn, that's right. That's the one he always had.
Doh smiley for me too. doh

Originally posted by TheGodKiller


@Sundipped: Yeah, it was strange why the time gem simply disappeared instead of shattering like its brethren. Guess it probably has to do with some yet-to-be-revealed timestream mashup related to the multiversal catastrophe that Hickman's been building up in his Avengers issues.

Agreed on the "timestream mashup" theory.

One thing's for sure. Mr Master ain't gonna be happy when he next posts on this forum.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
One thing's for sure. Mr Master ain't gonna be happy when he next posts on this forum.

I feel his pain.
Seems one has a chance against the IG if you can manage to throw a alternate universe at the wielder.
Say it ain't so Hickman/Marvel.

Did they reveal why the IG broke?

If they didn't I'm going to assume randomly that it was Kang who did it. Just sa'ing.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I understand the point you're trying to make, but the feats of an alternate IG aren't interchangeable with the mainstream IG. Right. However, at this point it really cannot be denied that Hickman seems to have made all IGs across the multiverse uniform-- that is to say: they all seem to possess equal power, and make their user all-powerful within a single universe. If one IG were more powerful than the others, we would have been made aware of that by now.

So in that sense, infinity gems do seem to be interchangeable.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Damn, that's right. That's the one he always had.
Doh smiley for me too. doh Oh, I thought you were just messing around.

^
Disregard that quote and let's look at it that way.

Originally posted by zopzop
@Horrificus

Dude, look!

They go boom
Now keep in mind what's been going on in the series AND the preview solicits and I don't think this is a clear cut stomp in the IG's favor. If anything, I think the SB is making a BIG comeback.

But I don't want to jinx it, Marvel has a way of phucking things up. Hmmmm.
I know everybody is pushing for the all-powerful ig, but the starbrand was never shown to have any limits. They never took it as far as it can go.
It's all up in the air for now.

Originally posted by Galan007
Right. However, at this point it really cannot be denied that Hickman seems to have made all IGs across the multiverse uniform-- that is to say: they all seem to possess equal power, and make their user all-powerful within a single universe. If one IG were more powerful than the others, we would have been made aware of that by now.

So in that sense, infinity gems do seem to be interchangeable.
Fair enough.

Originally posted by Bentley
Did they reveal why the IG broke?

If they didn't I'm going to assume randomly that it was Kang who did it. Just sa'ing.

Nothing solid really, Cap suggested it might've been because he wasn't that competant at using it, which isn't a bad theory seeing as it's been shown before that it takes time to master the IG.

But yeah, I imagine it'll be revealed at some point soon.

But that's a bit weird considering Reed tried to actively destroy the guantlet before -by using the Guantlet itself- and failed. There has to be an explanation (all the better if it happens to be about Kang )

Something weird was going on. After Cap united the IG, the colors of the gems stopped corresponding as they normally do. For instance, on one page the mind gem inextricably became red, and a few pages later it was green-- it should be blue(as it initially was.) This color-shift happened with every gem. So yeah, something threw the gems out of whack.

Perhaps the IG was overloaded because it only functions within its native universe, yet they used it's power to prevent an alternate universe from melding with theirs at the specific incursion point? Who knows?

Originally posted by Galan007
Something weird was going on. After Cap united the IG, the colors of the gems stopped corresponding as they normally do. For instance, on one page the mind gem inextricably became red, and a few pages later it was green-- it should be blue(as it initially was.) This color-shift happened with every gem. So yeah, something threw the gems out of whack.

Perhaps the IG was overloaded because it only functions within its native universe, yet they used it's power to prevent an alternate universe from melding with theirs at the specific incursion point? Who knows?
I'd say the color variation was probably an illustrative botch.

That looks like a reasonable explanation. Which more or less completely ignores what Magus did with an incomplete IG, but hey, that's Hickman for you, using non-canon source material(Earth-X for Celestials in SHIELD and JLA/Avengers for the IG retcon) as reference points for his stories, even while completely ignoring previous story arcs revolving around the things.

Also, Galan, for some strange reason this scan of yours isn't working for me. Could you please fix that.

Did Quasar use the Star brand in his comic series, I cant remember was it in 616 universe or the New Universe? I'm not going to lie IG has better feats, but the Star Brand does have ridiculous potential and it is cooler looking. Could be the Star Brand and IG are siblings, maybe related to the Infinity Being/Nemesis

Originally posted by the Darkone
Did Quasar use the Star brand in his comic series, I cant remember was it in 616 universe or the New Universe? I'm not going to lie IG has better feats, but the Star Brand does have ridiculous potential and it is cooler looking. Could be the Star Brand and IG are siblings, maybe related to the Infinity Being/Nemesis
Yes he did.

The awesome thing about it was, he didn't even know he had it still while he was in the 616 universe. He thought it burnt out in transition between multiverses.

But even with NO experience or knowledge on how to use it. The Starbrand reconstructed his body after he had been nullified with the Ultimate Nullifier. He beat the crap out of the guy that stole his Q-bands with it too.

Then he passed it on to his girlfriend/fiance. Even her noobish self was able to rezz herself after she had been atomized by an alien cannon, then she went on to destroy the ENTIRE alien fleet. Their was some weird Ol Skool alien that went around absorbing/analyzing powers from various superhumans for his own purposes (forgot the guys name), but when he tried to analyze the mysterious energy in Kayla, he overloaded and blew up.

Then she gave the Starbrand to her friend who turned out to be a Deviant (Erishkigal) in disguise. That chick had the LT on his toes and even he decided it wasn't worth the damage to the multiverse to fight her directly and instead suggested they pick champions to fight on their behalf.

Then there was the whole Starblast storyline, then the New Universe one shots (one of them featured the Starbrand), then the Newuniveral limited series, and now this Avengers arc.

Originally posted by Bentley
But that's a bit weird considering Reed tried to actively destroy the guantlet before -by using the Guantlet itself- and failed. There has to be an explanation (all the better if it happens to be about Kang )
I have a theory as to why it overloaded. It went up against a superior force :
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/6578/suckitig.th.jpg

That's from the Untold Tales of the New Universe : Starbrand one shot

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I'd say the color variation was probably an illustrative botch.

That looks like a reasonable explanation. Which more or less completely ignores what Magus did with an incomplete IG, but hey, that's Hickman for you, using non-canon source material(Earth-X for Celestials in SHIELD and JLA/Avengers for the IG retcon) as reference points for his stories, even while completely ignoring previous story arcs revolving around the things. I disagree. Personally, I believe it was intentional... An illustrative depiction of the gems freaking out and being overloaded.

That's why I love Hickman. He's logical.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Also, Galan, for some strange reason this scan of yours isn't working for me. Could you please fix that. Better?

Originally posted by Galan007
I disagree. Personally, I believe it was intentional... An illustrative depiction of the gems freaking out and being overloaded.

K, cool.
Originally posted by Galan007

That's why I love Hickman. He's logical.

Lawlz.
Originally posted by Galan007

Better?
Got it from Philosophia's scans. But thanks anyways.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Hyperion held that same force back until both worlds collapsed from the strain.

As Philo said:
Hey, sh|t happens in comics. Wolverine pierced Power Gem Thanos with his claws and Masterson Thor had Thanos on his knees from attacks. The BS meter was off the scale when that was going on too.

Originally posted by zopzop
I have a theory as to why it overloaded. It went up against a superior force :
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/6578/suckitig.th.jpg

That's from the Untold Tales of the New Universe : Starbrand one shot New Universal was a wondrous series.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Hyperion held that same force back until both worlds collapsed from the strain.

As Philo said: Difference, though, is that the IG saved both universes. Hyperion did not.

Originally posted by zopzop
Hey, sh|t happens in comics. Wolverine pierced Power Gem Thanos with his claws and Masterson Thor had Thanos on his knees from attacks. The BS meter was off the scale when that was going on too.
Thanos wielded the weaksauce IG when those things happened though.

Good point.

Originally posted by Galan007
Something weird was going on. After Cap united the IG, the colors of the gems stopped corresponding as they normally do. For instance, on one page the mind gem inextricably became red, and a few pages later it was green-- it should be blue(as it initially was.) This color-shift happened with every gem. So yeah, something threw the gems out of whack.

Perhaps the IG was overloaded because it only functions within its native universe, yet they used it's power to prevent an alternate universe from melding with theirs at the specific incursion point? Who knows?

Idk, Hickman said on his formspring that they messed up, but I guess that might only be for one of the colouring instances...

^You got it, pal.
http://www.formspring.me/JonathanHickman/q/423735210937434247

Concede now, Galan007!!!

The link's got broken for some reason. Good thing I kept a screen-shot of it:
http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/2732/hickmanigcolormessup.jpg

^ Link isn't working.

Tbh I'm shocked that they'd overlook something as blatant as gem coloring. I mean, they got it right at first-- Beast had the mind gem, which was blue. But then they messed up on the gems... not just once, but TWICE... in the same issue? Man, that's really hard for me to believe, but hey, it came straight from the horses mouth. I'll be surprised if the same colorist will be teamed-up with Hickman in future issues. That's a pretty big phuck up.

This is also relevant to the discussion, me thinks:
http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x402/galanpics/Untitled_zps32408134.jpg

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x402/galanpics/Untitled2_zps4b986eab.jpg

IG

IG still stomps the Starbrand!

Starbrand hasn't done jack that even comes close to incomplete or complete IG feats.
(not even in the world of hyperbole)

Erishk with the Starbrand was another joke until she
1) Entered the Nexus of Realities
2) Merged with the Nexus Guardians
3) The combination of the 3 amps got the LT's attention.

Erishk was only a threat to reality with the Strabrand from withIN the Nexus
while Merged to the Guardians,
which even Then,
she had to Shift the Multiversal Axis from withIN the Nexus
to do any damage to realities.

----------------------------------------


As for Hickman's portrayal of the IG.

So far (on panel) I haven't seen any dramatic changes.

We witnessed a Newb IG wielder (Cap)
push an Entire Other Universe away.
Except for some straining he did it fairly easily.
(shouldn't that be Multi-Universal anyway? ... or at-least Beyond "universal" influence?)

Why the 5 Gems exploded at this point is a mystery.

The Gems are supposed to be completely indestructible.
(literally stated on panel and confirmed in its bio) We'll see what Hicks has saved for us.

----------------------------------------


Now,
if Hickman decides to directly state on panel that the prime IG is confined to its native reality like its Alternates, then we must accept this as the Retcon.

A Starbrand Reed got one shotted by a Mad Celestial

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
A Starbrand Reed got one shotted by a Mad Celestial
Yet Erishkigal stared down the LT and he blinked first.

Plus the Gems just got destroyed. The Starbrand is just fine.

Originally posted by zopzop

Yet Erishkigal stared down the LT and he blinked first.
Actually, you know well friend that Erish didn't even register to the LT with the Starbrand alone.

If you're gonna say that, be thorough.

Erishkigal with the Starbrand,
from withIN the Nexus of all realities,
plus Merged to the Guardians,
... Then This got the LT's attention.

Why?

Because Erish had unbalanced the closed system of power within the prime Multiverse.

How? Because she was so powerful?

No. Because the Starbrand belongs to Another closed multiversal system
(the one that houses the New Universe)
when it came into the Prime multiverse
and merged with the Guardians withIN the Nexus,
she became a threat to balance since now she could affect the multiverse
via shifting the axis that's within the Nexus,
meh ... the fact that it was in the Nexus while merged to the Guardians
was enough to upset balance.

Remember, All energy withIn a Multiverse is accounted for,
any over abundance of energy introduced from outside that
Multiverse can cause an imbalance.

Originally posted by zopzop

Plus the Gems just got destroyed. The Starbrand is just fine.
Hickman isn't going to dish out the goods at that site,
I'm sure there's more to this story.

The Gems have been around for almost 25 years,
and many stories have they given life too ...
.. Marvel isn't going to just do away with them imo.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
The link's got broken for some reason. Good thing I kept a screen-shot of it:
http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/2732/hickmanigcolormessup.jpg

lol

that's pretty funny. anywho, by feats the ig still beats the sb, but.....i'm not so sure that will remain the case.....

and yeah zop, sb is way the f cooler.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Now,
if Hickman decides to directly state on panel that the prime IG is confined to its native reality like its Alternates, then we must accept this as the Retcon. That was stated on panel:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15061705/New_Avengers_003-Zone-011.jpg.html

The 616 IG is universal.

Originally posted by zopzop
Hey, sh|t happens in comics. Wolverine pierced Power Gem Thanos with his claws and Masterson Thor had Thanos on his knees from attacks AND THING GAVE NAMOR A DECENT FIGHT. The BS meter was off the scale when that was going on too.

Correction. Seen you forgot something.

Originally posted by Galan007

That was stated on panel:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15061705/New_Avengers_003-Zone-011.jpg.html

The 616 IG is universal.
Well then, that's that. (years of continuity ... out the window)

Now all we have to figure is how powerful is the IG withIN its native reality.

Meaning, is the wielder "God" within their native universe? (like MJJ would be within his warp)

Can they stop or defeat anyone within their native universe?

You feel me G?

That newb wielding (cap) feat was decent imo. (he rejected an on coming entire Universe)

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well then, that's that.

Now all we have to figure is how powerful is the IG withIN its native reality.

Meaning, is the wielder "God" within their native universe? (like MJJ would be within his warp)

Can they stop or defeat anyone within their native universe?

You feel me G?

That newb wielding (cap) feat was decent imo. (he rejected an on coming entire Universe) This is what Hickman's IGs are capable of:
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/15081326_FantasticFour_611_TheGroup_004.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/15081327_FantasticFour_611_TheGroup_005.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/15081328_FantasticFour_611_TheGroup_006.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/15081329_FantasticFour_611_TheGroup_007.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/15081330_FantasticFour_611_TheGroup_008.jpg

Massively impressive, imo. Granted that wasn't the 616 IG, but clearly Hickman's intention is that all IGs throughout the multiverse are equal in the sense that they all make you omnipotent within a single(native) universe:
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/15081352_ff_571_12.jpg

So if one IG can create a universe, then logically ALL IGs can do so.

Any one else reckon that the empty universe Doom went into is the result of an incursion?

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Any one else reckon that the empty universe Doom went into is the result of an incursion?
Not really. That universe was destroyed by a founding member of the Council of Reeds in Fantastic Four # 605.1, using the very same Infinity Gauntlet that Doom is shown wielding in Galan's scans.

It's written by Hickman as well, but it has nothing to do with his current multiversal incursion storyline.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Not really. That universe was destroyed by a founding member of the Council of Reeds in Fantastic Four # 605.1, using the very same Infinity Gauntlet that Doom is shown wielding in Galan's scans.

It's written by Hickman as well, but it has nothing to do with his current multiversal incursion storyline.

Ah fair enough, I didn't read the .1 issue.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Not really. That universe was destroyed by a founding member of the Council of Reeds in Fantastic Four # 605.1, using the very same Infinity Gauntlet that Doom is shown wielding in Galan's scans.

@Kfish...

Only 3 members of the Council of Reeds wielded infinity gauntlets:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15086650/Fantastic_Four_570_DTs-Megan_pg23.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15086651/Fantastic_Four_570_DTs-Megan_pg24.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15086652/Fantastic_Four_570_DTs-Megan_pg25.jpg.html


Two of them were killed by the Mad Celestials:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15086654/ff_572_004.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15086656/ff_572_005.jpg.html


The third IG was used to momentarily pwn several Mad Celestials and then was never seen again(I just noticed that, and it's very weird.)
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15086658/ff_572_007.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15086659/ff_572_008.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15086661/ff_572_009.jpg.html<----He's still wearing the IG here.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15086662/ff_572_016-017.jpg.html<----A few pages later, it's gone.
Effin' strange, imo.


Anyway, Doom took the 2 aforementioned IGs from the Reed skeletons:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15086528/ff-20.jpg.html
And then used the bridge to locate one of their corresponding/native universes, of which was a blank void(see the scans I posted above.)

Why was it a blank void? Because the bearded/Nazi Reed lost control of the IG and his entire universe was destroyed as a result:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15086645/f-18.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15086648/f-19.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15086649/f-20.jpg.html

Originally posted by zopzop
This is nuts. So SuperGod Herc and Chaos King > any single IG? Think about it. The IG is universal and only functions in it's native reality.

Chaos King has devoured 98.75% of the MULTIVERSE. SuperGod Herc restored 98.75% of the MULTIVERSE (sure he burnt himself out, but whatever).

Damn.... Here's the thing: even the post-Hickman 616 IG never operated on that scale. That is to say: the IG has never destroyed and recreated 98% of the multiverse. In fact, the only item with a feat of that scale is the 616 UN(which is why the consensus for the past several years has been that the UN has more raw destructive/creative power than the IG, but not the same level of versatility-- which is why the IG is superior overall.)

Either way, put CK or Herc in the same universe as an IG-wielder, and they are going to be dominated inside that universe. An IG-wielder is still all-powerful, that hasn't changed.

^^
Beat me to it. Plus CK got retconed into just a aspect of Oblivion. Oblivion himself can't even stand in the same room as the IG.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Ah fair enough, I didn't read the .1 issue.

Can we stop pretending you read comics at all? biscuits

Originally posted by Galan007
Here's the thing: even the post-Hickman 616 IG never operated on that scale. That is to say: the IG has never destroyed and recreated 98% of the multiverse. In fact, the only item with a feat of that scale is the 616 UN(which is why the consensus for the past several years has been that the UN has more raw destructive/creative power than the IG, but not the same level of versatility-- which is why the IG is superior overall.)

Either way, put CK or Herc in the same universe as an IG-wielder, and they are going to be dominated inside that universe. An IG-wielder is still all-powerful, that hasn't changed. pre-Hickman IG, I meant.

Originally posted by Galan007
Either way, put CK or Herc in the same universe as an IG-wielder, and they are going to be dominated inside that universe. An IG-wielder is still all-powerful, that hasn't changed. Considering the Mad Celestials beat back an IG wielder, I don't see how you can think this.

Originally posted by ODG
Considering the Mad Celestials beat back an IG wielder, I don't see how you can think this.

The Mad Celestials are no Galactus

Originally posted by Galan007

Either way, put CK or Herc in the same universe as an IG-wielder,
and they are going to be dominated inside that universe. An IG-
wielder is still all-powerful, that hasn't changed.
Btw. Thanx for the rest of the input with visuals.

I haven't read these last issues, but you pretty much laid it out accurately.
Originally posted by ODG

Considering the Mad Celestials beat back an IG wielder,
I don't see how you can think this.
^^ If I'm not mistaken they weren't withIN their native realities.

I believe they were hanging out in some Other-dimension where the Council was located.
(that's where the Celestials attacked them)

Wait ...
didn't those alternate IGs work outside their realities but not to their full potential?

I think I remember some alternate Reed creating some major project
on some planet in that another universe.
Although, those alternate IGs could be harnessed outside their universes Fully,
so long as there was some conduit/anchor connecting them to their native realities.
(I guess that's a way to exploit plot in order to get them functioning outside)

Big stipulation though, I agree.

Originally posted by Galan007
Here's the thing: even the post-Hickman 616 IG never operated on that scale. That is to say: the IG has never destroyed and recreated 98% of the multiverse. In fact, the only item with a feat of that scale is the 616 UN(which is why the consensus for the past several years has been that the UN has more raw destructive/creative power than the IG, but not the same level of versatility-- which is why the IG is superior overall.)

Either way, put CK or Herc in the same universe as an IG-wielder, and they are going to be dominated inside that universe. An IG-wielder is still all-powerful, that hasn't changed.
I get what you are saying Galan but I'm not so sure. We'll see how this plays out with Hickman. On panel, Captain America and the IG, he barely pushed back that other universe AND the Gems shattered as a result, that doesn't seem "all powerful" to me.

Oh and another thing, the IG is 'only' universal in scope yet 4 items from Earth's pantheons (ambrosia, golden apples, thoth's books, and 4th item that escapes me now) are capable of making one into a legit multiversal being!

Man, Marvel is just phucking up left and right. Chaos War should be retconned asap.

Originally posted by zopzop

On panel, Captain America and the IG, he barely pushed back that
other universe AND the Gems shattered as a result, that doesn't seem "all powerful" to me.
That was Cap a moment after putting on the glove for the first time ever.

Imo, that's pretty uber. He strained, but did push away an entire Universe.

Also, like Hickman stated in that site, it was Cap that failed, not the Gems.
(whatever happened there concerning the shattering Gems, was Cap's fault)
I'm sure the Gems will resurface somehow.
I'm sure they did not truly explode into nothingness.
Originally posted by zopzop

Oh and another thing, the IG is 'only' universal in scope yet 4
items from Earth's pantheons (ambrosia, golden apples, thoth's
books, and 4th item that escapes me now) are capable of making
one into a legit multiversal being!

Supposedly. I don't buy talk until I see something that (in action)
points to anything being a possibility.

That aside, it matters not like Galan said, withIN their native universe,
they make you "God" ...

So step to them, and you get crushed. (they just can't step to you)

Originally posted by Mr Master
That was Cap a moment after putting on the glove for the first time ever.

Imo, that's pretty uber. He strained, but did push away an entire Universe.

Also, like Hickman stated in that site, it was Cap that failed, not the Gems.
(whatever happened there concerning the shattering Gems, was Cap's fault)
I'm sure the Gems will resurface somehow.
I'm sure they did not truly explode into nothingness.

Supposedly. I don't buy talk until I see something that (in action)
points to anything being a possibility.

That aside, it matters not like Galan said, withIN their native universe,
they make you "God" ...

So step to them, and you get crushed. (they just can't step to you)
But that's the thing Mr. M, they were "stepped to" and they folded, shattered to pieces. I guess you can say that was because Captain America was a fail wielder but they still shattered.

He was in 616 reality using the 616 Gems.

http://4ms.me/V4czsE


Hmm, so according to Hickman not all the IGs are equal to each other.

Originally posted by Mr Master
If I'm not mistaken they weren't withIN their native realities.

I believe they were hanging out in some Other-dimension where the Council was located.
(that's where the Celestials attacked them)

Wait ...
didn't those alternate IGs work outside their realities but not to their full potential?

I think I remember some alternate Reed creating some major project
on some planet in that another universe.
Although, those alternate IGs could be harnessed outside their universes Fully,
so long as there was some conduit/anchor connecting them to their native realities.
(I guess that's a way to exploit plot in order to get them functioning outside)

Big stipulation though, I agree. That Reed had access to his native universe so I'm not sure there's a handicap there. Anyway, Doom was in his IG's native dimension and he was overrun too.

Star Brand stomps as far as coolness goes.

Originally posted by vince_slice
http://4ms.me/V4czsE


Hmm, so according to Hickman not all the IGs are equal to each other.
What a headache! So is the 616 the most powerful IG or not? Ugh...
Originally posted by ODG
Anyway, Doom was in his IG's native dimension and he was overrun too.
Wait, what happened? His IG was functional and he was beaten back? Who overran him?

Originally posted by zopzop

But that's the thing Mr. M, they were "stepped to" and they folded, shattered to pieces.

I guess you can say that was because Captain America was a fail wielder but they still shattered.

He was in 616 reality using the 616 Gems.
Well, they didn't exactly fold, they did stop that entire universe, and pushed it away.

The Gems shattered, yes. But why? What happened? Where are they?
Do they still exist? What is an illusion? Did they will their own explosion?

Many questions, this is just one book.

let's give it time good friend.
Originally posted by vince_slice

http://4ms.me/V4czsE

Hmm, so according to Hickman not all the IGs are equal to each other.
I also love how he doesn't acknowledge the "universal" part of the question.
(imo, he implies that's not the case)

He only states: "They're all powerful"
Originally posted by ODG

That Reed had access to his native universe
so I'm not sure there's a handicap there.
Right. Only that One Reed acquired access for a moment,
but the the others got fried which never had access.

btw. When he did access his IG, he one shotted all the Celestials there,
and then the portal got caught off, so some Celestials hauled ass.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/15088503_Alt_IG_out1.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/15088505_Alt_IG_out2.jpg
Originally posted by ODG

Anyway, Doom was in his IG's native dimension and he was overrun too.
Haven't read that.

Originally posted by zopzop
What a headache! So is the 616 the most powerful IG or not? Ugh...

Wait, what happened? His IG was functional and he was beaten back? Who overran him? Only a Sith deals in absolutes. And Hickman is no Sith.

Doom's own creations. Which I see as a play on the whole omnipotence paradox thing, "If God can do anything, can He make a stone so big He can't lift it something that could beat even Him?" Depending on your take, some people would say it's impossible, so technically God can't. Doom did.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well, they didn't exactly fold, they did stop that entire universe, and pushed it away.

The Gems shattered, yes. But why? What happened? Where are they?
Do they still exist? What is an illusion? Did they will their own explosion?

Many questions, this is just one book.

let's give it time good friend.


Oh for sure, God only knows where Hickman is taking this, but I'm just trying to hype up the Starbrand.

Stop killin' my dreams Mr. M

I have to agree with Mr Master.
Thanos with it killed half of creation without a though. That's way greater than pushing a single universe.

I think Cap had to have done something, after experiencing the power, I don't think he wanted it to fall into the wrong hands. That's MHO. We have to wait and see.

Russell Brand?

Originally posted by ODG
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. And Hickman is no Sith.

Doom's own creations. Which I see as a play on the whole omnipotence paradox thing, "If God can do anything, can He make a stone so big He can't lift it something that could beat even Him?" Depending on your take, some people would say it's impossible, so technically God can't. Doom did. didn't they take his gauntlets?

Been a while since I read that so I dunno

Wait what Doom had the Gauntlet? The only time I remember Doom having the Guanlet is in a What If. He pretty much wiped the Celestial race and exhausted the IG's power.

It looks like the IG is no longer as powerful as it once was....Maybe it will have a very good feat soon but I think those days are over.

Originally posted by kgkg

It looks like the IG is no longer as powerful as it once was....Maybe it
will have a very good feat soon but I think those days are over.
Actually, so far the only difference (we think)
is that it's omnipotent capabilities are restricted to one universe.

But now, according to Hickman's response to Galan, it seems this isn't exactly the case either,
it appears, that the IG may be "God-like" outside as well.

Although, Hickman was vague, I think he's got something special up his sleeve,
I hope he gives us a true showing of "all powerful" as he stated about the IG.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well, they didn't exactly fold, they did stop that entire universe, and pushed it away.

The Gems shattered, yes. But why? What happened? Where are they?
Do they still exist? What is an illusion? Did they will their own explosion?

Many questions, this is just one book.

let's give it time good friend.

I also love how he doesn't acknowledge the "universal" part of the question.
(imo, he implies that's not the case)

He only states: "They're all powerful"

Right. Only that One Reed acquired access for a moment,
but the the others got fried which never had access.

btw. When he did access his IG, he one shotted all the Celestials there,
and then the portal got caught off, so some Celestials hauled ass.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/15088503_Alt_IG_out1.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/15088505_Alt_IG_out2.jpg

Haven't read that.

Incorrect not all the gems shattered the time gym disappeared iam guessing a big hint thte IG has a bigger role or just to cover that the IG fail with some PIS reason later

Originally posted by DarkOdin

Incorrect not all the gems shattered the time gym disappeared iam
guessing a big hint thte IG has a bigger role or just to cover that the
IG fail with some PIS reason later
Actually, neither I nor anyone else involved in this dialogue after page 1,
suggested "all" the Gems had shattered. We established that pages
ago via scans. I didn't need to belabor that info in that post since we
already understood that.

But hey, it's a good heads up for those that aren't paying attention, so cool.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Although, Hickman was vague, I think he's got something special up his sleeve,
I hope he gives us a true showing of "all powerful" as he stated about the IG. I really hope so but I have my doubts

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
The link's got broken for some reason. Good thing I kept a screen-shot of it:
http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/2732/hickmanigcolormessup.jpg

That was pretty obvious.

Originally posted by vince_slice
http://4ms.me/V4czsE


Hmm, so according to Hickman not all the IGs are equal to each other.
He doesn't say much of anything. He dodged the question. A cop-out.

Originally posted by ODG
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. And Hickman is no Sith.

Doom's own creations. Which I see as a play on the whole omnipotence paradox thing, "If God can do anything, can He make a stone so big He can't lift it something that could beat even Him?" Depending on your take, some people would say it's impossible, so technically God can't. Doom did.

Doom seems to be paradoxically good at sucking...

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Even%20More%20Random/Phail10.jpg

Originally posted by kgkg
Wait what Doom had the Gauntlet? The only time I remember Doom having the Guanlet is in a What If. He pretty much wiped the Celestial race and exhausted the IG's power.
Future Foundation(FF) # 16: he was stranded on the Reeds' Council HQ in the Bridge pocket reality, and took the alternate IGs of 2 dead Reeds.

In Fantastic Four #611, he later went to one of those dead Reeds' even dead-er universe, and reignited it using the power of that universe's native IG. He lost it to his created subjects later on.
Originally posted by ODG
Doom's own creations. Which I see as a play on the whole omnipotence paradox thing, "If God can do anything, can He make a stone so big He can't lift it something that could beat even Him?" Depending on your take, some people would say it's impossible, so technically God can't. Doom did.
Or it could be Hickman's reference to the IG getting disconnected with their host when (s)he has fulfilled whatever life-long desire they wanted in the first place. Kind of like how Titania lost the power gem to She-Hulk. Afterall, Doom admitted later on that he found Godhood beneath him. That probably created a moment of vulnerability for his "children" to usurp their creator's power.

Plus Cap being the only one who could use the gems to push away the other universe in New Avengers(also written), due to him being the one whose idea it was to begin with, also lends credence to this theory behind Doom's loss imo.

Originally posted by ODG
Considering the Mad Celestials beat back an IG wielder, I don't see how you can think this.
Iirc, he was stomping them left and right the moment his IG got activated. He lost only when the Reed who was providing the portal to his universe got killed under the strain of channeling such power through him, thereby deactivating the IG once again.

Originally posted by Galan007
The third IG was used to momentarily pwn several Mad Celestials and then was never seen again(I just noticed that, and it's very weird.)
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15086658/ff_572_007.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15086659/ff_572_008.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15086661/ff_572_009.jpg.html<----He's still wearing the IG here.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15086662/ff_572_016-017.jpg.html<----A few pages later, it's gone.
Effin' strange, imo.

Another illustrative oversight. He still had the glove in FF#14.

Ignoring current storylines....
In the past living tribunal went up against Adam warlock and questioned whether he could wrest the power from him...

When eshkigal had the star brand I don't remember the big guy having any qualms about it...

Originally posted by rotiart
You say multiverse I say universe

Especially considering how Hercules was able to restore what chaos king destroyed...

And that mikaboshi was defeated by throwing him into another universe...

And also since oblivion treats chaos king as only an aspect of hisself...

But we shall agree to disagree with you trying to bring up something to this thread that doesn't belong.

:-/
Dude, did you see Thor Annual 1 (2012) it was CONFIRMED on panel that Chaos King almost destroyed the entire MULTIVERSE. And CW Herc restored it.

So that means CK and CW Herc were multiversal but the IG's are "only" universal.
Originally posted by rotiart
Ignoring current storylines....
In the past living tribunal went up against Adam warlock and questioned whether he could wrest the power from him...

When eshkigal had the star brand I don't remember the big guy having any qualms about it...
Rotiart, you must have missed that scene where the LT said he would enlist the mighty of the multiverse to go up against Erishkigal with the Starbrand if she didn't desist.

So apparently he wasn't too confident in his chances if he was gonna call in backup to take her on.

Marquis of Death >>> Infinity Gauntlet. peaches

^^ pfft

Originally posted by zopzop

Dude, did you see Thor Annual 1 (2012) it was CONFIRMED on
panel that Chaos King almost destroyed the entire MULTIVERSE. And
CW Herc restored it.

So that means CK and CW Herc were multiversal but the IG's are "only" universal.
Perhaps.

But if either of them enter the 616 Reality they get stomped by the IG.

As of now, until Hickman tells more, withIN that sphere of influence, you are all powerful.
Originally posted by zopzop

Rotiart, you must have missed that scene where the LT said he
would enlist the mighty of the multiverse to go up against Erishkigal
with the Starbrand if she didn't desist.

This isn't Starbrand merged with the Nexus Guardians inside the Nexus of all realities.

This is just, the Starbrand, which didn't even register to the LT on its own.
Btw, even After the Amp ... LT felt she may be a "potential peer to the abstract Entities"
But could not "withstand the power of the Living Tribunal" ... guess you can flip a coin.

Erishkigal needed to expend vast amounts of energy just to open a dimensional portal.

Erishkigal never acquired any kind of cosmic awareness,
and she also had no sense of placement when she exits her reality.

We gotta keep real baby.

Where exactly does it say that the multiverse is what chaos king destroyed?

Scrier and the other have been around at the beginning and will do battle until the end of the multiverse...

Oblivion mentions how what chaos king did is but a prelude to what scrier and the other would bring about...

Yet scrier and the other worried about the end of the universe due to galactus fighting...

Yeah. And oblivion saying he wants the end of the multiverse but that chaos king not being able to bring the end he wants is cause chaos king is only an aspect of oblivion... Doesn't explicitly say he was doing it. Heck thanos in "the end" has a better on panel portrayal of ending it all.

Originally posted by rotiart
Where exactly does it say that the multiverse is what chaos king destroyed? It was stated a few times within the actual Chaos War issues.

Originally posted by rotiart
Where exactly does it say that the multiverse is what chaos king destroyed?

Scrier and the other have been around at the beginning and will do battle until the end of the multiverse...

Oblivion mentions how what chaos king did is but a prelude to what scrier and the other would bring about...

Yet scrier and the other worried about the end of the universe due to galactus fighting...

Yeah. And oblivion saying he wants the end of the multiverse but that chaos king not being able to bring the end he wants is cause chaos king is only an aspect of oblivion... Doesn't explicitly say he was doing it. Heck thanos in "the end" has a better on panel portrayal of ending it all.
It was stated in Chaos War that CK destroyed 98.75% of the multiverse. I remember that you were arguing that they used the word universe too.

But here is the proof that it was the multiverse :
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/8223/chaoskingend.th.jpg
Originally posted by ODG
It was stated a few times within the actual Chaos War issues.
There was a discussion a while back as to whether CK really destroyed the majority of the multiverse or if it was just a unvierse, because the word universe was used once or twice (instead of multiverse) to describe what was destroyed and restored.

rotiart was on "team universe".

more terminology gaffes from marvel. be AWESOME if they put up a massive chart in their offices and told everyone exactly what is what and forced everyone to adhere to the same definitions and terminology. it would avoid a great deal of unnecessary wrangling and head scratching.....

@MrMaster, Galan, Leo and anyone else who's interested:

Hickman explains why he seemingly downscaled the IG:
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/1973/hickmanigdownscale.jpg

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
@MrMaster, Galan, Leo and anyone else who's interested:

Hickman explains why he seemingly downscaled the IG:
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/1973/hickmanigdownscale.jpg

Hickman's response is reasonable, even if he can't spell.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
@MrMaster, Galan, Leo and anyone else who's interested:

Hickman explains why he seemingly downscaled the IG:
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/1973/hickmanigdownscale.jpg

i agree whole-heartedly. fortunately it was never shown operating in any alternate universes anyway, so no real harm done imo. he's right though, the logic didn't hold and i applaud him for seeing it.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Perhaps.

But if either of them enter the 616 Reality they get stomped by the IG.

As of now, until Hickman tells more, withIN that sphere of influence, you are all powerful.

This isn't Starbrand merged with the Nexus Guardians inside the Nexus of all realities.

This is just, the Starbrand, which didn't even register to the LT on its own.
Btw, even After the Amp ... LT felt she may be a "potential peer to the abstract Entities"
But could not "withstand the power of the Living Tribunal" ... guess you can flip a coin.

Erishkigal needed to expend vast amounts of energy just to open a dimensional portal.

Erishkigal never acquired any kind of cosmic awareness,
and she also had no sense of placement when she exits her reality.

We gotta keep real baby.
Mr. M my friend, I think you selling the Starbrand short.
This is what Erishkigal says about the Starbrand :
http://imageshack.us/a/img545/8121/superiorp.th.jpg
The Narrator says basically the same thing :
http://imageshack.us/a/img22/508/nofeare.th.jpg

Look how the LT dealt with Warlock and his little tantrum :
http://imageshack.us/a/img101/7635/ltrulesig10cf.th.jpg http://imageshack.us/a/img148/7161/ltrecreatesqm2.th.jpg

Look at how the LT could not just snap his fingers and undo what Erishkigal was doing with the Starbrand, right to his face :
http://imageshack.us/a/img7/5126/snapthis.th.jpg

Look at the LT standing up to Warlock with the IG without needing to call in backup :
http://imageshack.us/a/img132/6516/ltrulesig56ys.th.jpg
vs this
The LT stating he'll enlist the mighty of the MULTIVERSE to attack Erishkigal if she doesn't desist :
http://imageshack.us/a/img832/73/rocksteadyv.th.jpg
And to drive the point across, he stated point blank that a direct war against her (with his little buddies) would cause MORE damage than her rocking the Cosmic Axis.

Originally posted by leonidas
i agree whole-heartedly. fortunately it was never shown operating in any alternate universes anyway, so no real harm done imo. he's right though, the logic didn't hold and i applaud him for seeing it.
If Hickman keeps this up, I may have to reconsider calling him a moron

Originally posted by leonidas
i agree whole-heartedly. fortunately it was never shown operating in any alternate universes anyway, so no real harm done imo. he's right though, the logic didn't hold and i applaud him for seeing it.
It was shown operating in a different reality in Ultraverse. The logic didn't hold in his opinion. It's a fictional concept, revolving around a completely unrealistic artifact of great power which literally defies logic and common sense, so him being right about it or not is a moot point.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
@MrMaster, Galan, Leo and anyone else who's interested:

Hickman explains why he seemingly downscaled the IG:
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/1973/hickmanigdownscale.jpg

This response makes absolutely no sense.
What does "infinite" have to do with this case? Cap only tried to push away one universe from within the gems native 616 reality.

By saying "things have to be tweaked and discarded", he's basically saying "hey I'll just shit on any concept at any given time according to what I want to do".

@ zop

That "potential peer" to the abstracts scan actually hurts your case. The IG being beyond all abstracts is cemented.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
It was shown operating in a different reality in Ultraverse. The logic didn't hold in his opinion. It's a fictional concept, revolving around a completely unrealistic artifact of great power which literally defies logic and common sense, so him being right about it or not is a moot point.

a gray area imo in the sense that the ultraverse was actually owned by marvel and this was their 'tool' to bring it into the fold. so many inconsistencies in that arc make it nearly impossible to fit into the more 'mainstream' ig history. like i said earlier--the ultraverse idea has never been brought up in the what, 10 years since that initial merger? and it's not like there hasn't been the chance to do so many many times. the whole ultraverse was phased out. i'd always assumed it had been retconned, and now clearly it has been.

and while i agree to a certain extent with your premise regarding its unreality and hence the "mootness" of his point, i disagree completely with the notion that the ig, by default, should, as a fictional, all-powerful artifact, not have to adhere to logic--or rather as logic dictated by the comicbook world. even comics have their internal logic. when that consistency is blatantly ignored, well, that's why we have pis. we can apply your idea (about defying logic) across the board in comics, from simple things like someone being strong enough to physically move a planet, to people traveling ftl. but at some point suspension of disbelief can no longer be upheld if we no longer believe in the internal consistency of the world marvel has created. when internal inconsistencies continue to crop up (no logical reason that i know of--apart from anthropocentrism--that the '616' ig should be more powerful than any other alternate version) then the whole thing goes to hell.

imo all hickman did was simply reinforce an idea i thought was self-evident (the retcon of the whole malibu fiasco). the ig was never shown to be effective in alternate multiverses aside from our own, so i don't really see anything he did as being impactful (retroactively or presently) on the ig at all.

Originally posted by zopzop


If Hickman keeps this up, I may have to reconsider calling him a moron

and if you keep THIS up, i'll have to reconsider calling you the same.

heh

oh, and of course to further support the 'gray area' i mentioned with the malibu-verse, while it was shown to work there after marvel bought it, the other reality where it was shown to NOT work was obviously dc. marvel owns malibu, it works, it doesn't own dc, it doesn't work. coincedence....? not in this guy's humble opinion.

Originally posted by Sundipped
@ zop

That "potential peer" to the abstracts scan actually hurts your case. The IG being beyond all abstracts is cemented.
If he really believed that, the very next line wouldn't be a threat to annihilate her by calling in the "Highest Powers of the Multiverse" to attack her.

He NEVER threatened to enlist others to his side when dealing with Warlock with the IG. He never merely snapped his fingers and undid Erishkigal's "t|t fit" like he did with Adam with the IG.

So, yeah.
Originally posted by leonidas
and if you keep THIS up, i'll have to reconsider calling you the same.

heh

Originally posted by zopzop





oh zop, even though we don't always agree, you know i think you're a good poster here. and the push you're trying to give the starbrand only adds to your worth imo. i've loved the starbrand since the new universe days (i'm likely the only guy on here who has all the issues of all the new universe series! aside from starbrand the rest were pretty crappy, though justice had moments as did psi-force....

Originally posted by leonidas


oh zop, even though we don't always agree, you know i think you're a good poster here. and the push you're trying to give the starbrand only adds to your worth imo. i've loved the starbrand since the new universe days (i'm likely the only guy on here who has all the issues of all the new universe series! aside from starbrand the rest were pretty crappy, though justice had moments as did psi-force....
Yup. I've been a fan since the New Universe days. I have most of the original Starbrand issues (missing like 5 or 6), the NewUniversal comic featuring the Brand and the Quasar issues dealing with it (including the Starblast story arc).

I was gonna start a respect thread for the Star Brand but decided not too because it wasn't worth it, but this blatant lowballing of the Star Brand is making me reconsider.

So basically, Hickman established the IG is "not" multiversal?

So the long pages of debates about it were a waste of time, thanks to Hickman?

Originally posted by cdtm
So basically, Hickman established the IG is "not" multiversal?

So the long pages of debates about it were a waste of time, thanks to Hickman?



yeah, sort of. but it was still fun.

Originally posted by zopzop
If he really believed that, the very next line wouldn't be a threat to annihilate her by calling in the "Highest Powers of the Multiverse" to attack her.

He NEVER threatened to enlist others to his side when dealing with Warlock with the IG. He never merely snapped his fingers and undid Erishkigal's "t|t fit" like he did with Adam with the IG.

So, yeah.

Ummm.......and who would these others be? The same abstracts who got wrecked by the IG during cosmic court?

Also that snap was just to restore order during the session. You must have missed what LT said ifif he were to attempt forcibly removing the gems? That it would lay waste to that reality.

Originally posted by cdtm
So basically, Hickman established the IG is "not" multiversal?

So the long pages of debates about it were a waste of time, thanks to Hickman?

He did, it is an excellent issue as well. His Avengers work may excede his FF work.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Ummm.......and who would these others be? The same abstracts who got wrecked by the IG during cosmic court?
Who knows who they are, maybe Scathan would make another appearance. The point is, he threatened her with a posse and she just laughed in his face.

The LT didn't seek back up against the IG. Also, once the LT passed judgement against the IG, it WOULD NOT WORK. Nothing would get it working again until the LT allowed the Gems to function in unison :
http://imageshack.us/a/img74/8058/ltaboveig6qk.th.jpg http://imageshack.us/a/img66/6007/ltaboveig25hj.th.jpg

Now compare this when he got a hold of the Starbrand after Erishkigal lost the bet :
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/1981/posession.th.jpg
He couldn't do jack to it : destroy it, absorb it's power into himself (like he did vs the Protege), or will it not to work. So he hid it in plain sight (gave it back to Kayla).


Yes, THAT reality.

The fight with Eriskigal would have wrecked more damage on the MULTIVERSE than if he allowed her to shift the Cosmic Axis and lay waste to most of reality.

Originally posted by ODG
Considering the Mad Celestials beat back an IG wielder, I don't see how you can think this. Reed's IG was only active for a brief moment, and in that time he was able to tool several Mad Celestials simultaneously. Once the link to his IGs native universe was severed, he lost all teh powa.

Originally posted by ODG
Anyway, Doom was in his IG's native dimension and he was overrun too. Like you said: apparently Doom/God found a way to create a rock so heavy that even he couldn't lift it. Doom eats paradoxes for breakfast. sneer

Originally posted by zopzop
I get what you are saying Galan but I'm not so sure. We'll see how this plays out with Hickman. On panel, Captain America and the IG, he barely pushed back that other universe AND the Gems shattered as a result, that doesn't seem "all powerful" to me. http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x402/galanpics/Untitled2_zps4b986eab.jpg
" failed. The gems didn't."

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Another illustrative oversight. He still had the glove in FF#14. He had the IG as early as FF #3:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15105189/ff_03_020.jpg.html

In fact, it looks to me like that Reed's IG was vaporized by the energy-backlash he experienced from the UN, in FF #14:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15105192/FF_14_013.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15105195/FF_14_015.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15105199/FF_14_017.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15105202/FF_14_019.jpg.html

...So there were only 2 IGs for Doom to choose from.

^Well, that means that the IG and UN have a 1-1 scorecard in terms of on-panel fights.
Originally posted by leonidas
a gray area imo in the sense that the ultraverse was actually owned by marvel and this was their 'tool' to bring it into the fold. so many inconsistencies in that arc make it nearly impossible to fit into the more 'mainstream' ig history. like i said earlier--the ultraverse idea has never been brought up in the what, 10 years since that initial merger? and it's not like there hasn't been the chance to do so many many times. the whole ultraverse was phased out. i'd always assumed it had been retconned, and now clearly it has been.

and while i agree to a certain extent with your premise regarding its unreality and hence the "mootness" of his point, i disagree completely with the notion that the ig, by default, should, as a fictional, all-powerful artifact, not have to adhere to logic--or rather as logic dictated by the comicbook world. even comics have their internal logic. when that consistency is blatantly ignored, well, that's why we have pis. we can apply your idea (about defying logic) across the board in comics, from simple things like someone being strong enough to physically move a planet, to people traveling ftl. but at some point suspension of disbelief can no longer be upheld if we no longer believe in the internal consistency of the world marvel has created. when internal inconsistencies continue to crop up (no logical reason that i know of--apart from anthropocentrism--that the '616' ig should be more powerful than any other alternate version) then the whole thing goes to hell.

imo all hickman did was simply reinforce an idea i thought was self-evident (the retcon of the whole malibu fiasco). the ig was never shown to be effective in alternate multiverses aside from our own, so i don't really see anything he did as being impactful (retroactively or presently) on the ig at all.
I fail to see how Marvel owning Malibu comics at that point somehow invalidates, or to put it in better terms, adds ambiguity to the fact that the IG functioned in another, completely separate reality, which was in all likelihood located outside of the prime Multiverse. Pre-Hickman, nothing suggests that the storyline in that arc was retconned.

Comicbook logic is what the writer dictates it to be. Starlin originally perceived the gems representing the core might of the entiy who originally spawned the gems. Then Hickman came along, and found the idea of the Infinity Gems somehow being unique illogical, and decided to borrow the notion of them being restricted to their native universes from JLA/Avengers.

Nope. The Malibu retcon wasn't self-evident. The IG was definitely a trans-universal power at the very least in Marvel canon, before Hickman came along and retconned the crap out of it. Plus, I never said that the IG was effective in alternate multiverses either.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
@MrMaster, Galan, Leo and anyone else who's interested:

Hickman explains why he seemingly downscaled the IG:
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/1973/hickmanigdownscale.jpg Yeah, I saw that a few days ago. Gotta love Hickman-- the dude brings common sense to the table.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
^Well, that means that the IG and UN have a 1-1 scorecard in terms of on-panel fights. To be fair, Reed's IG wasn't operational when the UN-backlash destroyed it. Had they been in that IGs native universe, the UN *may* not have destroyed it.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
^Well, that means that the IG and UN have a 1-1 scorecard in terms of on-panel fights.

I fail to see how Marvel owning Malibu comics at that point somehow invalidates, or to put it in better terms, adds ambiguity to the fact that the IG functioned in another, completely separate reality, which was in all likelihood located outside of the prime Multiverse. Pre-Hickman, nothing suggests that the storyline in that arc was retconned.

i'll disagree with you there. to me no mention of the event, and bios that indicate there is still 'mystery' around nemesis/gems:

The origin of entity known as Nemesis is covered in mystery. It has led us to believe that it was once the Infinity Gems in its humanoid sentient form. At some stage of its development it became tired of its existence, and willed itself to shatter into what was thought to be six gems....

was enough to indicate to me that marvel no longer supported the notion of the IB being responsible for the gems or the creation of the.....whatever term you want to use. of course, my opinion carried precisely.....no weight. i simply wouldn't spend time debating the IB or nemesis as i believed the idea had been retconned and would eventually be officially so. in any event, guess we'll just agree to disagree on that score. do you see this as now being an official retcon of the ultraverse storyline?

as far as for why i think the real life purchase mattered--i guess i'll just invoke that most dreaded of terms and label the use of the gems to bring malibu into the marvel fold as PIS--a term i try and avoid like the plague..... :: i just can't imagine for a second the gems would have worked there had they not been a simple, convenient plot device. again, just my opinion.



hmm, i'll respectfully disagree again, most definitively with your first sentence. the writer doesn't exist in a vacuum--though i believe starlin at times FEELS and even acts as if he does. the logic he 'dictates' must be supported by the world in which he is working or the whole thing fails. not sure the notion came from jla/avengers though. as soon as the first what if came out with a new IG things got wonky imo and pretty much untenable.



not iyo.



absolutely, and i STILL think it's transuniversal--iow i'm pretty sure it is still MULTIVERSAL. until such time as i see a wielder step into asgard and NOT be able to blink odin out of existence, i'll say it's multiversal. if the ig owner stepped into mephisto's hell, or dormmy's dark dimension or any of the other dimensions that seem to make-up the prime multiverse, and FAILED to utterly pwn whoever called that place home, THEN i'd concede that it has indeed been relegated to affecting ONLY the little universe where our heroes dwell. tbh i don't see that being the case though....



i....never said you did i don't think....?

if i did, it wasn't my intent to imply as much.

Originally posted by zopzop

Who knows who they are, maybe Scathan would make another appearance. The point is, he threatened her with a posse and she just laughed in his face.

The LT didn't seek back up against the IG. Also, once the LT passed judgement against the IG, it WOULD NOT WORK. Nothing would get it working again until the LT allowed the Gems to function in unison :

Now compare this when he got a hold of the Starbrand after Erishkigal lost the bet :

He couldn't do jack to it : destroy it, absorb it's power into himself (like he did vs the Protege), or will it not to work. So he hid it in plain sight (gave it back to Kayla).

Yes, THAT reality.

The fight with Eriskigal would have wrecked more damage on the MULTIVERSE than if he allowed her to shift the Cosmic Axis and lay waste to most of reality.

You can't be serious and believe he was referring to Scathan who only has one pis appearance to his credit? Let me guess, LT was also going to seek out the Amulet like he did against Protege.

And yeah he couldn't do jack except seal it off in another dimension when Kayla had it, basically rendering it ineffective.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/15105526_ltst7sx7.jpg

Big deal about wrecking the multiverse. The 616 IG is second to LT in THAT respective universe and the Starboard would fail against it.

@ galan

The explanation that Cap failed and the gems didn't is a much better perspective. Thanks for that lil tid bit.

I got the impression that he meant that Hyperion failed, which caused universal destruction while the IG did not. It pushed the universe away saving both.

Originally posted by Sundipped
You can't be serious and believe he was referring to Scathan who only has one pis appearance to his credit? Let me guess, LT was also going to seek out the Amulet like he did against Protege.

And yeah he couldn't do jack except seal it off in another dimension when Kayla had it, basically rendering it ineffective.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/15105526_ltst7sx7.jpg

He never sealed off the Starbrand, because it WASN'T ON THE PLANET in question. It was already in the possession of Skeletron in the original New Universe! The Stranger even tells the LT that.
http://imageshack.us/a/img812/268/failmore.th.jpg http://imageshack.us/a/img132/6964/failog.th.jpg
You were saying?


Says you.

Just to make things more clear, Skeletron had the overwhelming majority of it. Kayla possessed a fraction of it that all former users of the Brand have. Even Quasar possessed some of it, but to a lesser degree :
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9406/fraction.th.jpg
Just like Stranger said, the overwhelming majority of it was back in the New Universe with Skeletron.

Originally posted by zopzop
Just to make things more clear, Skeletron had the overwhelming majority of it. Kayla possessed a fraction of it that all former users of the Brand have. Even Quasar possessed some of it, but to a lesser degree :
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9406/fraction.th.jpg
Just like Stranger said, the overwhelming majority of it was back in the New Universe with Skeletron.

LT's such a dick.

"Once only" my ass. He could have easily arranged for Quasar, and only Quasar, to come and go as he pleased. Big G proved you could do selective barriers, creating one that "only" affected Surfer, and LT's a lot more omnipotent..

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Then Hickman came along, and found the idea of the Infinity Gems somehow being unique illogical, and decided to borrow the notion of them being restricted to their native universes from JLA/Avengers. The infinity gems have never been unique, though. You cannot pin that on Hickman.

Even as far back as Quasar #30(circa 1992), we saw an alternate Thanos /w/ IG battling Maelstrom.
We saw another alternate IG used by Surfer in What If v2 #49.
We saw another alternate IG used by Impossible Man in What If v2 #104.
We saw another alternate IG in JLA/Avengers.
We saw another alternate IG in an F4 What If released in 2009.
We saw another alternate IG in a Secret Wars What If released in 2009.
We saw another alternate IG in Ultimate Spider-Man #8.
etc. etc. etc.
Heck, we've even seen entire minis devoted to alternate infinity gems(Avengers and the Infinity Gauntlet, and Lockjaw and the Pet Avengers.)

...Mind you, all of the above came before Hickman's recent tenure on F4/FF/Avengers... So yeah...

My opinion: Hickman saw that Marvel had already established the concept of several alternate sets of infinity gems(possibly infinite) existing throughout the multiverse, so he did the logical thing and made those sets operational solely within the universe in which they were spawned. After all, it would be pretty phucking dumb if any random IG-wielding baddie from universe '8897322bubblegumxxyyzz' could simply pop-in to the 616 universe and gain automatic God-power simply because he wields AN infinity gauntlet.

Originally posted by Galan007
The infinity gems have never been unique, though. You cannot pin that on Hickman.

Even as far back as Quasar #30(circa 1992), we saw an alternate Thanos /w/ IG battling Maelstrom.
We saw another alternate IG used by Surfer in What If v2 #49.
We saw another alternate IG used by Impossible Man in What If v2 #104.
We saw another alternate IG in JLA/Avengers.
We saw another alternate IG in an F4 What If released in 2009.
We saw another alternate IG in a Secret Wars What If released in 2009.
We saw another alternate IG in Ultimate Spider-Man #8.
etc. etc. etc.
Heck, we've even seen entire minis devoted to alternate infinity gems(Avengers and the Infinity Gauntlet, and Lockjaw and the Pet Avengers.)

...Mind you, all of the above came before Hickman's recent tenure on F4/FF/Avengers... So yeah...

My opinion: Hickman saw that Marvel had already established the concept of several alternate sets of infinity gems(possibly infinite) existing throughout the multiverse, so he did the logical thing and made those sets operational solely within the universe in which they were spawned. After all, it would be pretty phucking dumb if any random IG-wielding baddie from universe '8897322bubblegumxxyyzz' could simply pop-in to the 616 universe and gain automatic God-power simply because he wields AN infinity gauntlet.
Excellent post!

In fact, it was that very first alt reality showing of an IG, featuring Thanos and Maelstrom throwing down, that led to the Star Brand finding its way into 616 reality!

So Hickman is making the IG explode? WTF? I really dont like Retconns sometimes.

Angry Black Man Says (youtube) "this ***** retarded"

Originally posted by leonidas
as soon as the first what if came out with a new IG things got wonky imo and pretty much untenable.


and wonky=

Originally posted by Galan007
The infinity gems have never been unique, though. You cannot pin that on Hickman.

Even as far back as Quasar #30(circa 1992), we saw an alternate Thanos /w/ IG battling Maelstrom.
We saw another alternate IG used by Surfer in What If v2 #49.
We saw another alternate IG used by Impossible Man in What If v2 #104.
We saw another alternate IG in JLA/Avengers.
We saw another alternate IG in an F4 What If released in 2009.
We saw another alternate IG in a Secret Wars What If released in 2009.
We saw another alternate IG in Ultimate Spider-Man #8.
etc. etc. etc.
Heck, we've even seen entire minis devoted to alternate infinity gems(Avengers and the Infinity Gauntlet, and Lockjaw and the Pet Avengers.)

...Mind you, all of the above came before Hickman's recent tenure on F4/FF/Avengers... So yeah...

My opinion: Hickman saw that Marvel had already established the concept of several alternate sets of infinity gems(possibly infinite) existing throughout the multiverse, so he did the logical thing and made those sets operational solely within the universe in which they were spawned. After all, it would be pretty phucking dumb if any random IG-wielding baddie from universe '8897322bubblegumxxyyzz' could simply pop-in to the 616 universe and gain automatic God-power simply because he wields AN infinity gauntlet.

Originally posted by zopzop
It was stated in Chaos War that CK destroyed 98.75% of the multiverse. I remember that you were arguing that they used the word universe too.

But here is the proof that it was the multiverse :
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/8223/chaoskingend.th.jpg

There was a discussion a while back as to whether CK really destroyed the majority of the multiverse or if it was just a unvierse, because the word universe was used once or twice (instead of multiverse) to describe what was destroyed and restored.

rotiart was on "team universe".

first this agrees that what happened in chaos war is trivial in relationship to whats going on with Scrier and Other.... it actually does NOT say that the entire multiverse was destroyer... it was a prelude to the possibility of that.

and it wasn't once or twice that universe was mentioned. in fact we had to get into the fact that supergod hercules... the person who restored everything... mentioned it was the universe... athena herself... etc.. and the person you had that mentioned it was the multiverse was amadeus cho without the benefit of the godlike powers of hercules...

but yes i was definitely team universe....

on the other hand. stop bringing up outside stuff into this. if you want to get back into another chaos war/chaos king debate then bump that thread and we can rehash the same thing all over ago. but at this point you and i are derailing this thread.

back on it. i definitely appreciate the level of power of the star brand. but i definitely don't think those issues are being interpreted by either of us the same way. I definitely take it as ig > starbrand.

Originally posted by zopzop


He never sealed off the Starbrand, because it WASN'T ON THE PLANET in question. It was already in the possession of Skeletron in the original New Universe! The Stranger even tells the LT that.
http://imageshack.us/a/img812/268/failmore.th.jpg http://imageshack.us/a/img132/6964/failog.th.jpg
You were saying?

Originally posted by zopzop
Just to make things more clear, Skeletron had the overwhelming majority of it. Kayla possessed a fraction of it that all former users of the Brand have. Even Quasar possessed some of it, but to a lesser degree :
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9406/fraction.th.jpg
Just like Stranger said, the overwhelming majority of it was back in the New Universe with Skeletron.

That may be true because you posted the scan with Stranger stating that the seal needs to stay intact because of Skeletron accumulating so much power.

Before you posted that, it was iffy to me as to where the majority of the power went because you have Stranger teleporting the power source (New Earth) away from Skeletron with Kayla on it here.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/15107993_strangervsskeletron.jpg

And you have Stranger being zapped for a portion of it which I thought to be minute because as it states here, Stranger exhausted himself just from moving the world to 616.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/15107942_skeletrondrainsstranger.jpg

Originally posted by zopzop

Mr. M my friend, I think you selling the Starbrand short.

This is what Erishkigal says about the Starbrand
On Panel action > On Panel statements
Originally posted by zopzop

Look how the LT dealt with Warlock and his little tantrum :

Look at how the LT could not just snap his fingers and undo what Erishkigal was doing with the Starbrand, right to his face :

Look at the LT standing up to Warlock with the IG without needing to call in backup :

vs this
The LT stating he'll enlist the mighty of the MULTIVERSE to attack Erishkigal if she doesn't desist :

And to drive the point across, he stated point blank that a direct
war against her (with his little buddies) would cause MORE damage
than her rocking the Cosmic Axis.

Erishkigal without being Merged to the Nexus Guardians,
and without being withIN the Nexus of all Realities ... was basically a joke,
and didn't even register to the LT.

As for your comparison my friend, it doesn't fit.

You're putting side to side to completely different set of circumstances.

The LT & Warlock confronted each other in a story containing ONLY Abstracts,
and Warlock himself.

While the LT & Erishkigal pop up in a Quasar book,
where of course/inevitably he has to be the hero at the end.
So the LT & Erishkigal don't battle (plot) and instead well what da know,
Quasar and Surfer battle and Quasar figures how to win
while remaining friends with Surfer.

==========================


Erishkigal was never a threat to the LT, (that I saw)
and would never have been able to beat the LT, or anything close. (considering the evidence)

In fact, with the Starbrand alone, the LT didn't even notice Erishkigel.

In fact, with the Starbrand alone, EK was NOT a Universal power,
and certainly not a Multiversal power either.

-------------------------------------------------------------


First:

Erishkigel (with Starbrand) has to expend "vast amounts of energy"
just to open a portal to another dimension:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/11945350_EK1.jpg

I know many cats that can do this easily, who aren't near even universal level.

-------------------------------------------------------------


Second:

Erishkigel (with Starbrand) never had any kind of cosmic awareness,
and she also has no sense of placement when she exits her reality:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11945366_EK2.jpg

-------------------------------------------------------------


Third:

Erishkigel (with Starbrand) wanted to affect the Multiverse.

These are the Stipulations:

She needed to be in the Nexus of all Realities (contains portals into every universe)

She needed to "shift the Cosmic Axis" (only possible within said Nexus)

She needed to merge with the power of 8 Nexus Guardians in order to accomplish that

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11945441_EK6.jpg


This is what actually got the LT's attention, once she merged with the Guardians:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11945472_EK.jpg

-------------------------------------------------------------


Finally:

We can see Starbrand/Erishkigel without assistance, isn't all she's cracked up to be.

As far as Erishkigel (Starbrand) (and amped by the Nexus Guardians) having a chance against the LT:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/11945484_EK10.jpg

The LT felt she may be a "potential peer to the abstract Entities"

But could not "withstand the power of the Living Tribunal"

-------------------------------------------------------------


I guess we can toss a coin to choose where the LT's words make more sense.

Originally posted by Mr Master
On Panel action > On Panel statements

Erishkigal without being Merged to the Nexus Guardians,
and without being withIN the Nexus of all Realities ... was basically a joke,
and didn't even register to the LT.

As for your comparison my friend, it doesn't fit.

You're putting side to side to completely different set of circumstances.

The LT & Warlock confronted each other in a story containing ONLY Abstracts,
and Warlock himself.

While the LT & Erishkigal pop up in a Quasar book,
where of course/inevitably he has to be the hero at the end.
So the LT & Erishkigal don't battle (plot) and instead well what da know,
Quasar and Surfer battle and Quasar figures how to win
while remaining friends with Surfer.

==========================


Erishkigal was never a threat to the LT, (that I saw)
and would never have been able to beat the LT, or anything close. (considering the evidence)

In fact, with the Starbrand alone, the LT didn't even notice Erishkigel.

In fact, with the Starbrand alone, EK was NOT a Universal power,
and certainly not a Multiversal power either.

-------------------------------------------------------------


First:

Erishkigel (with Starbrand) has to expend "vast amounts of energy"
just to open a portal to another dimension:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/11945350_EK1.jpg

I know many cats that can do this easily, who aren't near even universal level.

-------------------------------------------------------------


Second:

Erishkigel (with Starbrand) never had any kind of cosmic awareness,
and she also has no sense of placement when she exits her reality:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11945366_EK2.jpg

-------------------------------------------------------------


Third:

Erishkigel (with Starbrand) wanted to affect the Multiverse.

These are the Stipulations:

She needed to be in the Nexus of all Realities (contains portals into every universe)

She needed to "shift the Cosmic Axis" (only possible within said Nexus)

She needed to merge with the power of 8 Nexus Guardians in order to accomplish that

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11945441_EK6.jpg


This is what actually got the LT's attention, once she merged with the Guardians:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11945472_EK.jpg

-------------------------------------------------------------


Finally:

We can see Starbrand/Erishkigel without assistance, isn't all she's cracked up to be.

As far as Erishkigel (Starbrand) (and amped by the Nexus Guardians) having a chance against the LT:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/11945484_EK10.jpg

The LT felt she may be a "potential peer to the abstract Entities"

But could not "withstand the power of the Living Tribunal"

-------------------------------------------------------------


I guess we can toss a coin to choose where the LT's words make more sense.
I think you lowballing the Starbrand big time my friend.

The LT misses a lot of cosmic threats till someone brings it to his attention : The Korvac Incident (yes it's a what if but it's a valid showing for him), Magus with the 5 Cubes, Thanos with the IG, Sliorath. In each of those instances someone brought the offending person to the LT's attention : Uatu with Korvac, Eternity with Thanos/IG, the Vistanti with Sliorath, and the LT didn't even sense Magus with the 5 CCUs.

So him not instantly detecting the Starbrand as a threat isn't something to hold against it. Hell, when Skeletron with the Starbrand was trapped in the New Universe, the LT was totally ignorant of the threat and told Stranger to shift the New Universe Earth out of 616 reality and back into it's rightful multiverse. The Stranger warned him of Skeletron with the Starbrand and the LT WISELY backed off that idea and instead sealed off the New Universe Earth from the rest of 616 reality.

Regarding the multiversal damage from the LT/Starbrand showdown, it stated on panel by the LT himself, that fighting her for control of the Starbrand would cause MORE damage than her shifting the cosmic axis. It's in the scans I provided earlier.
http://imageshack.us/a/img23/3953/donotwantm.jpg

Regarding the Nexus Guardians, she did not need them at all. They decided to join her. She effortlessly annihilated the other Nexus Guardians that didn't want in on her plan :
http://imageshack.us/a/img713/9242/byebye.th.jpg
She destroyed at LEAST 12 of them (that I can count on panel).

Originally posted by zopzop

I think you lowballing the Starbrand big time my friend.
I don't think so good friend.
Originally posted by zopzop

The LT misses a lot of cosmic threats till someone brings it to his
attention : The Korvac Incident (yes it's a what if but it's a valid
showing for him), Magus with the 5 Cubes, Thanos with the IG,
Sliorath. In each of those instances someone brought the offending
person to the LT's attention : Uatu with Korvac, Eternity with
Thanos/IG, the Vistanti with Sliorath, and the LT didn't even sense
Magus with the 5 CCUs.

So him not instantly detecting the Starbrand as a threat isn't
something to hold against it. Hell, when Skeletron with the
Starbrand was trapped in the New Universe, the LT was totally
ignorant of the threat and told Stranger to shift the New Universe
Earth out of 616 reality and back into it's rightful multiverse. The
Stranger warned him of Skeletron with the Starbrand and the LT
WISELY backed off that idea and instead sealed off the New
Universe Earth from the rest of 616 reality.
None of the cases you mentioned where the LT did not show up via his own accord,
are instances where the "offending" parties did Not,
or were Not unbalancing the Multiversal consonance LT worries about.

Unlike the Starbrand, which is an energy source of Another Multiverse,
and therefore if it was so powerful as you believe it would warrant the LT's interference immediately since that's what unbalances Multiversal consonance:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15141474_Er6.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15141475_Er8.jpg

Basically,
when a system (Multiverse) has too much power in an given area
that does Not belong to said given area.

ie. When Sym & Mady opened a inter-dimensional portal from Limbo to Reality 89112,
all of Limbo's inhabitants began flowing into that Reality.
Soon enough this brought about an un-balanced state that could potentially affect the Multiverse,
thus we see the LT arrive, but the Phoenix that purged the area affected.

Oh, I just noticed, the true reason the LT noticed her is because prior she had made a Multiversal call:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/15141499_Er5.jpg

Again, exploiting the Nexus' effortless passage/influence on multiple realities.

------------------------------------------------------------


You know who has a Multiversal feat under their belt via a Nexus?

The Phoenix Force ... and while some have tried to pin the credit on Phoenix,
the fact is, that without that assisted access to other realities,
this feat doesn't exist.

Real "Multiversal" or beyond feats minus stipulations:

On a specific target? uhh, Abraxas taking out All Alternate Reeds.

On all out wreckage? uhh, the UN re-writing all of Eternity/Infinity.
Originally posted by zopzop

Regarding the multiversal damage from the LT/Starbrand
showdown, it stated on panel by the LT himself, that fighting her for
control of the Starbrand would cause MORE damage than her
shifting the cosmic axis. It's in the scans I provided earlier.
Yea, withIN the Nexus of All Realities? Of course!

Remember, my friend, the reason these Nexus portals are guarded is because
with the right set of circumstances they can be exploited.

Erishkigal could do Nothing to a single Reality,
or any Reality whatsoever, while Outside the Nexus.

Luckily for her, the Nexus was already thin and tattered, and set for easy pickings:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15141478_ER3.jpg

---------------------------------------------------------


In fact, Ereshkigal herself knew that the only way she was going to affect reality,
was by exploiting the Nexus:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15141479_ER4.jpg

---------------------------------------------------------


In fact, Ereshkigal's own official Bio states exactly the same thing:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15141513_ER9.jpg

"Ereshkigal set out to use the Starbrand to conquer the Nexus of All Realities,
In Order to conquer the Multiverse"

Originally posted by zopzop

Regarding the Nexus Guardians, she did not need them at all. They decided to
join her. She effortlessly annihilated the other Nexus Guardians that didn't want in
on her plan :

If she did not need them "at all" ...
why did she merge with their powers in order to attempt to unbalance the Cosmic Axis?

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/15141494_ER7.jpg

"We are aligned with the Axis"

"I want you All to concentrate ...
allow the Nexus Energies that flow through you to come forth"

---------------------------------------------------------


That aside ... let's take a look at some other misgivings concerning this Starbrand:

Ereshkigal has to expend vast amounts of energy just to open a dimensional gateway,
something even Herald-types (or lesser) are capable of.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15141503_Er1.jpg


Ereshkigal never acquired any cosmic awareness:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15141504_ER2.jpg

================================


Aside from killing Man-Thing & those several Nexus guardians,
and exercising her power withIN the Nexus to affect balance between Order/Chaos
I didn't see anything else of of any kind that merits this Starbrand such high esteem.

Meh, you don't even have to be a "universal" power (or close to that) to take out nexus guardians btw.

Nexus Guardians should be just above Heralds. (not necessarily across all attributes)

================================


So imo, where does the Starbrand stand? I honestly don't know. (the hyperbole complicates judgement)

Based on feats, and factoring its limitations depicted on panel? ... imo!

Originally posted by Mr Master

All of the cases you mentioned where the LT did not show up via his own accord,
are instances where the "offending" parties did Not,
or were Not unbalancing the Multiversal consonance LT worries about.

Unlike the Starbrand, which is an energy source of Another Multiverse,
and therefore if it was so powerful as you believe it would warrant the LT's interference immediately since that's what unbalances Multiversal consonance:

I'm reposting this part cause I made a Typo.

I meant to write ... "All of the cases you mentioned" ...

Instead of "none of the cases" ... (above the first scans)

-------------------

Oh, and ... "the Phoenix Had purged the area affected"

Instead of "the Phoenix that purged the area affected" (below first scans)

Originally posted by Mr Master
I don't think so good friend.

None of the cases you mentioned where the LT did not show up via his own accord,
are instances where the "offending" parties did Not,
or were Not unbalancing the Multiversal consonance LT worries about.

Unlike the Starbrand, which is an energy source of Another Multiverse,
and therefore if it was so powerful as you believe it would warrant the LT's interference immediately since that's what unbalances Multiversal consonance:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15141474_Er6.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15141475_Er8.jpg

Basically,
when a system (Multiverse) has too much power in an given area
that does Not belong to said given area.

ie. When Sym & Mady opened a inter-dimensional portal from Limbo to Reality 89112,
all of Limbo's inhabitants began flowing into that Reality.
Soon enough this brought about an un-balanced state that could potentially affect the Multiverse,
thus we see the LT arrive, but the Phoenix that purged the area affected.

Oh, I just noticed, the true reason the LT noticed her is because prior she had made a Multiversal call:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/15141499_Er5.jpg

Again, exploiting the Nexus' effortless passage/influence on multiple realities.

------------------------------------------------------------


You know who has a Multiversal feat under their belt via a Nexus?

The Phoenix Force ... and while some have tried to pin the credit on Phoenix,
the fact is, that without that assisted access to other realities,
this feat doesn't exist.

Real "Multiversal" or beyond feats minus stipulations:

On a specific target? uhh, Abraxas taking out All Alternate Reeds.

On all out wreckage? uhh, the UN re-writing all of Eternity/Infinity.

Yea, withIN the Nexus of All Realities? Of course!

Remember, my friend, the reason these Nexus portals are guarded is because
with the right set of circumstances they can be exploited.

Erishkigal could do Nothing to a single Reality,
or any Reality whatsoever, while Outside the Nexus.

Luckily for her, the Nexus was already thin and tattered, and set for easy pickings:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15141478_ER3.jpg

---------------------------------------------------------


In fact, Ereshkigal herself knew that the only way she was going to affect reality,
was by exploiting the Nexus:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15141479_ER4.jpg

---------------------------------------------------------


In fact, Ereshkigal's own official Bio states exactly the same thing:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15141513_ER9.jpg

"Ereshkigal set out to use the Starbrand to conquer the Nexus of All Realities,
In Order to conquer the Multiverse"


If she did not need them "at all" ...
why did she merge with their powers in order to attempt to unbalance the Cosmic Axis?

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/15141494_ER7.jpg

"We are aligned with the Axis"

"I want you All to concentrate ...
allow the Nexus Energies that flow through you to come forth"

---------------------------------------------------------


That aside ... let's take a look at some other misgivings concerning this Starbrand:

Ereshkigal has to expend vast amounts of energy just to open a dimensional gateway,
something even Herald-types (or lesser) are capable of.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15141503_Er1.jpg


Ereshkigal never acquired any cosmic awareness:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15141504_ER2.jpg

================================


Aside from killing Man-Thing & those several Nexus guardians,
and exercising her power withIN the Nexus to affect balance between Order/Chaos
I didn't see anything else of of any kind that merits this Starbrand such high esteem.

Meh, you don't even have to be a "universal" power (or close to that) to take out nexus guardians btw.

Nexus Guardians should be just above Heralds. (not necessarily across all attributes)

================================


So imo, where does the Starbrand stand? I honestly don't know. (the hyperbole complicates judgement)

Based on feats, and factoring its limitations depicted on panel? ... imo!
I still think you are seriously lowballing here my friend.

Think about it, of all the times the LT has appeared on panel (NOT including retcons like the "Brothers", Secret Wars II, etc...) what has he done?
A) Vs Nebulous (back in the day) - LT beats him after a good fight. Win for the LT
B) Vs Korvac (what if) - LT seals his entire reality preventing anyone from exiting. Win via BFR
C) Vs Warlock with the IG - undoes the damage he did to the Cosmic Court with a snap of his fingers, surprising Warlock and then proceeds to take action against him till Warlock relents of his own free will and submits to the LT. Win for the LT.
D) Vs Protege - the LT loses
E) Vs Sliorath - the LT effortlessly removes a universe devourer from 616 reality. LT wins via BFR.
F) Vs Thanos with the HotU - the LT loses but only because Thanos had TOAA's power. So it's not a bad showing for the LT at all.
G) Vs Erishkigal with the Starbrand - the LT does NOT WANT to fight at all. The havoc Eriskigal causes is NOT undone by a snap of his fingers (as in the Warlock with the IG case). It's also clearly stated on panel that fighting her for control of the Nexus would cause MORE damage than her rocking the Cosmic Axis (which was her whole plan). He instead proposes they fight through proxies.

This doesn't strike you as odd? If the Starbrand is nothing, then why couldn't he put his foot down and stomp her? Hell, why not BFR back into the New Universe or another reality (as we've seen the Starbrand does NOT grant omniscience so she probably wouldn't find her way back)? Or seal her off in a pocket reality and separate it from the rest of the multiverse?

Another thing, once the IG was in the LT's power, his judgement prevented it from working.....period. The Gems could not function in unison until the LT lifted his ruling.

Yet with the Starbrand, even when Eriskigal forfeited it to him, he couldn't destroy it, claim it for his own (like he did with the Protege by absorbing him into himself), or will it not to work! In fact, he was forced to "hide it in plain sight" by secretly giving it back to Kayla.

Furthermore, when the Starblast story arc concluded, the LT demanded Stranger return the New Universe Earth back to the New Universe multiverse, but the Stranger told him that wasn't wise, since it would let loose a "hideously powerful entity" aka Skeletron with the Starbrand. The LT quickly changed his mind and decided to instead seal off the New Universe Earth from the rest of 616 reality.

Again, this doesn't strike you as odd? Why not shunt it back to it's original multiverse and stomp Skeletron if he got uppity? The LT wanted NONE of that.

Finally regarding the UN and Abraxas and crew. Abraxas feared the UN. The Starbrand laughed in it's face. Quasar, who wasn't even AWARE he had the Starbrand, recreated himself after being NULLIFIED (when the Magus with the IG turned it against Quasar)!

The UN itself is nothing to the Starbrand.

^^
Zop you're forgetting that LT said that she could be a "potential peer" to the abstracts. LT said he would enlist the mightiest powers in the multiverse (abstracts) to oppose her. This one scan crushes your whole argument.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/15144897_1810778-quasar_50_32_super.jpg

The IG has wrecked abstracts repeatedly with no sweat.

In both cases, with the IG and Starbrand, it was stated that the damage would be too much to bear so I honestly don't see why you want to cling to only the statement made in favor of Eriskigal. Both cases have horrible consequences and alternatives we're considered.

The deal LT proposed was win, you can do what you want, lose you surrender the Starbrand. He knew what he was going to accomplish all along because in a fight for the sake of the multiverse, he chose Surfer first and we all know in an all out battle Surfer is superior and would emerge victorious. After all, he can see past/present and future. Clever ploy by LT.

Another thing is that the writer wanted to portray Quasar as the hero of sorts by sacrificing himself after learning what the plan was and he saw the physicality of Lord Chaos and Master Order bounce back and forth. With this being Quasars own title, it's only fitting that it played out the way it did which was the core of the whole proposition.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/15145393_1810895-quasar_50_39_super.jpg

Eriskigal knew she didn't have the power to challenge LT because she chose to destroy herself instead. Now if one were to avert the proposition, then out of all possible choices, why that?

Anyway, LT said that he can't possess the SB without surrendering his own "limitless authority."

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/15145392_1810896-quasar_50_40_super.jpg

IMO which means only this function, (from LTs bio) which is perhaps the most important in the MU, would be compromised.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b571/superior100/3d435232-def4-40f7-aec4-0c945627584e_zps55c871a8.jpg

But not the actual might of LT which often operates outside of the "limitless authority" that expands throughout the multiverse.

In the Strangers case, it would make no sense to purposely breach the barrier where Skeletron, with the almighty SB, can't even transverse dimensions.
Why risk damaging 616 with LT mopping the floor with Skeletron if not necessary?

^
All of this + lack of feats is why the SB would fall short vs the IG in the mainstream universe. Hell, all a IG Weider would have to do is summon "potential peer" abstracts to do it's bidding.

Originally posted by Sundipped
^^
Zop you're forgetting that LT said that she could be a "potential peer" to the abstracts. LT said he would enlist the mightiest powers in the multiverse (abstracts) to oppose her. This one scan crushes your whole argument.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/15144897_1810778-quasar_50_32_super.jpg

The IG has wrecked abstracts repeatedly with no sweat.

In both cases, with the IG and Starbrand, it was stated that the damage would be too much to bear so I honestly don't see why you want to cling to only the statement made in favor of Eriskigal. Both cases have horrible consequences and alternatives we're considered.

The deal LT proposed was win, you can do what you want, lose you surrender the Starbrand. He knew what he was going to accomplish all along because in a fight for the sake of the multiverse, he chose Surfer first and we all know in an all out battle Surfer is superior and would emerge victorious. After all, he can see past/present and future. Clever ploy by LT.

Another thing is that the writer wanted to portray Quasar as the hero of sorts by sacrificing himself after learning what the plan was and he saw the physicality of Lord Chaos and Master Order bounce back and forth. With this being Quasars own title, it's only fitting that it played out the way it did which was the core of the whole proposition.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/15145393_1810895-quasar_50_39_super.jpg

Eriskigal knew she didn't have the power to challenge LT because she chose to destroy herself instead. Now if one were to avert the proposition, then out of all possible choices, why that?

Anyway, LT said that he can't possess the SB without surrendering his own "limitless authority."

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/15145392_1810896-quasar_50_40_super.jpg

IMO which means only this function, (from LTs bio) which is perhaps the most important in the MU, would be compromised.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b571/superior100/3d435232-def4-40f7-aec4-0c945627584e_zps55c871a8.jpg

But not the actual might of LT which often operates outside of the "limitless authority" that expands throughout the multiverse.

In the Strangers case, it would make no sense to purposely breach the barrier where Skeletron, with the almighty SB, can't even transverse dimensions.
Why risk damaging 616 with LT mopping the floor with Skeletron if not necessary?

^
All of this + lack of feats is why the SB would fall short vs the IG in the mainstream universe. Hell, all a IG Weider would have to do is summon "potential peer" abstracts to do it's bidding.
You keep making a big deal out of the "potential peer" of the abstracts argument but completely ignore the fact that :
a) this same writer had Anomaly Maelstrom at the level of the IG and Anomaly Maelstrom was still Oblivion's inferior.
b) if she was only a potential peer of the abstracts he could have crushed her whenever he wanted to but instead chose to fight through a proxy
c) when he had the chance to finally put the matter to an end once and for all (with Skeletron) he instead chose to let sleeping dogs lie and go for the easy way out via BFRing New Universe Earth from 616 reality.
d) Skeletron being "trapped" in the New Universe isn't something to hold against the Starbrand since the all mighty LT didn't even exist in the New Universe Multiverse and traversing between the two multiverses isn't an easy feat. The Starbrand doesn't grant omniscience and Skeletron wouldn't be able to find his way back to 616 reality.
e) even when he had the Starbrand in his possession the LT couldn't destroy it, banish it, claim it, or will it not to function unlike what he did to the IG once it came under his power.

E) destroys your entire argument

^
Fail.
You did nothing but recycle what's already been addressed.
The new points you did bring up about Maelstrom allegedly tanking a IG blast and Skeletron being stuck in New Universe are irrelevant to the thread.

Originally posted by Sundipped
^
Fail.
You did nothing but recycle what's already been addressed.
The new points you did bring up about Maelstrom allegedly tanking a IG blast and Skeletron being stuck in New Universe are irrelevant to the thread.
No what's fail is the fact that the IG is shattered and the **PF is dead yet you guys are downplaying the Starbrand

But anyway, you addressed nothing and avoided the points I brought up.

The 'potential peer' statement makes sense when you put it into perspective. The same guy that wrote the LT saying that had Anomaly Maelstrom = Thanos with IG yet Anomaly Maelstrom was still subservient to Oblivion (an abstract).

Skeletron being "stuck" in the New Universe is VERY relevant. The LT was all hot and bothered by the presence of the New Universe Earth in 616 reality, yet didn't DARE return it to it's rightful place in the New Universe multiverse lest Skeletron gain a foothold in 616 reality again.

The LT consistently seeks to AVOID facing off against Starbrand wielders. Funny that no?

**If you don't believe me check out Iron Man : God Killer.

Bringing up maelstrom being subservient to oblivion is ridiculous since in those issue it said oblivion was about to usurp oblivions authority or power I forget ...

As far as living tribunal deciding against battling her directly... He knew the outcome before hand. That's a sign of his cosmic awareness that he knew in a battle wager she would end herself with little interference from him. So he wins and does t have to damage the universe... God bless having that awareness...