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Many SW fans say that the duel on Mustafar had too much fight choreography and action scenes and that it wasn't emotional and intelligent enough like the star wars original trilogy lightsaber duels!

This thread is a discussion about how YOU would have fixed the duel had you written the movie to make it more like you wanted it to be.

i would reboot the whole damn PT or just disavow it all together

Originally posted by focus4chumps
i would reboot the whole damn PT or just disavow it all together

I'm going to start a new thread eventually about how how the PT should have been written better, but now, let's just discuss the duel on mustafar.

look, you have a shaky start here, but you havent swatted the PT-squeeling-fangirl hornets nest yet. trust me, it doesnt need to be a thread.


:edit: though despite the assertions of localized established group-think hives all over the internets, it's not quite an unpopular or undiscussed idea
http://www.slashfilm.com/the-new-star-wars-movie-idea-remake-prequels/

:edit 2: though i hope if they ever do its not for a long time. star wars needs to move ahead again.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
look, you have a shaky start here, but you havent swatted the PT-squeeling-fangirl hornets nest yet. trust me, it doesnt need to be a thread.


:edit: though despite the assertions of localized established group-think hives all over the internets, it's not quite an unpopular or undiscussed idea
http://www.slashfilm.com/the-new-star-wars-movie-idea-remake-prequels/

:edit 2: though i hope if they ever do its not for a long time. star wars needs to move ahead again.

I would have made anakin fight obi wan in a setting that looked very similar to where luke dueled vader during cloud city, at least for a part of the duel.

i thought the buildup was ok, despite hayden's horrible acting. ewan just has a way of working past crummy dialogue.


the proper way to have a cinematic duel or fight of any sort is to follow the rocky mold. it cant just be dancing and fencing for 15 minutes. part of the thrill in a duel is the threat of the hero being defeated. obiwan was in control 100% of the time, and so was anakin.

the key to the rocky mold is to have what i call the "rocky moment" the hero seemingly beaten/killed and then find untapped inner-strength and rise back to his feet, etc, etc. this is why the ep1 duel was the only thing that saved that giant turd. thats what made the luke/vader duels so exciting.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
i thought the buildup was ok, despite hayden's horrible acting. ewan just has a way of working past crummy dialogue.


the proper way to have a cinematic duel or fight of any sort is to follow the rocky mold. it cant just be dancing and fencing for 15 minutes. part of the thrill in a duel is the threat of the hero being defeated. obiwan was in control 100% of the time, and so was anakin.

the key to the rocky mold is to have what i call the "rocky moment" the hero seemingly beaten/killed and then find untapped inner-strength and rise back to his feet, etc, etc. this is why the ep1 duel was the only thing that saved that giant turd. thats what made the luke/vader duels so exciting.

I would have shown obi wan brush to the darkside or almost fall to the darkside like luke did, but resist at the end, during his anger that he gains during his duel with anakin, not only to create a ROTJ parallel and to add more depth to the story, but because it would show that even kenobi was threatened by the darkside.

When was the rocky moment during the ROTJ duel? The suprising and climatic moment of the mustafar duel was when obi wan cuts off anakin's legs.

in rotj it was more of an emotional rocky moment. which was fine since they couldnt logically have luke be manhandled by vader after he had previously challenged him as but a newbie and made vader work damn hard for that win. so instead he was beaten down inside with the turmoil over leia. it was still tension and suspense. "will he turn evil?" just another type of looming defeat to keep us on edge.

and in ep3 i think it would have been as simple as "obiwan gets his ass whooped". i mean, did you see him at the end of that duel? quick shower and a change of robes and you'd never suspect he had been fighting.

I thought the choreography was bad, tbh. Way too much repetition, and only a few moments where things actually looked heated.

That said, yeah, compared to ROTJ it's incredibly lacking in emotional depth. At least the speech at the end was well delived. Then again, that's Ewan; he can play anything.

Characterisation was often missing in the PT duels, thankfully compensated in part due to the fact they had good actors in them.

One of the best bits of the TPM duel was the pause when the fields close, where Obi-Wan twitches impatiently, Maul prowls like a redator and Qui-Gon meditates. Some felt there was more characterisation in that moment than the entire rest of the film. Nonetheless, Maul was horribly underused and it would have been better if Maul had actually DONE something in the film beforehand that would have made the stakes seem higher. It was actually a faintly irrelevant fight in the grand scheme of things.

Which is sad as, imo, it's the best one in terms of choreography. Ray Parks background no doubt helped with that.

The original draft had Maul defending the backup generator for the droids, which at least gave the fight a point. But much better would have been for Maul to have done some blatantly in-face evil stuff beforehand so it felt like something with a stake.

It was, nonetheless, an awesome fight.

That would have given him at least something to do, other than "capture the queen, but only after you kill the jedi". I can understand Lucas wanting the guy to have a bit of mystique, but letting us see so little of him makes him very much Boba Fett-like.

I hate to say it, but Darth Maul is way f*cking cooler than Boba Fett. Misused and underwritten that Sith may be, but great badassness I see in his screen time.


Maul actually did something effective and permanent, and his PIS death was still a lot better than Boba's.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I hate to say it, but Darth Maul is way f*cking cooler than Boba Fett. Misused and underwritten that Sith may be, but great badassness I see in his screen time.


Maul actually did something effective and permanent, and his PIS death was still a lot better than Boba's.

Maul technically was the only third Sith, he broke the rule of two, because Plageuis was also alive during TPM.

Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
Maul technically was the only third Sith, he broke the rule of two, because Plageuis was also alive during TPM. This isn't the EU subforum, you want to include Plagueis, go there.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
This isn't the EU subforum, you want to include Plagueis, go there.

This isn't the place for EU discussion, so yes, I understand that. These threads discuss the movies, they're not a discussion for the EU, even if that EU took place in the movie era.

However, I was just using the EU to explain a misconception/plot hole in the film. I don't think using the EU to explain all of the details that the movie doesn't explicity tell us counts as an EU discussion.

Also that had nothing to do with what I said.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Also that had nothing to do with what I said.

The main discussion in this thread is the movie's storyline of the prequels, not the EU.

I just used the EU to explain a part of the movie.

I was just pointing out that Maul was a very unique Sith in the sense that he broke the rule of two.

Originally posted by PhoenixSam5
This isn't the place for EU discussion, so yes, I understand that. These threads discuss the movies, they're not a discussion for the EU, even if that EU took place in the movie era.

However, I was just using the EU to explain a misconception/plot hole in the film. I don't think using the EU to explain all of the details that the movie doesn't explicity tell us counts as an EU discussion.

Yes it does. Any EU continuity is to be ignored here. The Rule of Two was not broken.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Yes it does. Any EU continuity is to be ignored here. The Rule of Two was not broken.

OK, I'll respect your wishes. I won't discuss the EU here.

no more fixing please. accept or reject that which is broken and move forward.

i think most people here would at least agree with that.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
no more fixing please. accept or reject that which is broken and move forward.

i think most people here would at least agree with that.

In the ROTS alternate ending video game scene, Obi wan actually talked to Anakin and they had meaningufl and emotional scenes dialogue during there duel, just like in the OT films, how the Luke Vs. Vader in the OT, in TESB and ROTJ. The dialogue creates a lot of depth and it affects the duels to a great extent, other than just mindless action special effects. The OT duels were a perfect example of that.

Obi wan actually tried to redeem anakin in the video game mustafar duel, and anakin rejected him sharply.

"anakin, face up to what you've done. Come back to the light side".

Anakin rejected him and said, "my old friend".

In the actual episode 3 movie the only dialogue they had during their action highly choreographed dance scene was that awkward "i failed you anakin, palpatine is evil, no, from my POV the jedi are evil".

I actually liked the "this is the end for you my master", line, but other than that, the whole duel lacked what made the ROTJ and TESB lightsaber duels magical-the awesome and deep and not wooden dialogue scenes.

Fight was bad.

Palpatine v Windu and Friends was bad.

Palpatine v Yoda was decent.

The actual Palps vs Mace when it was just the two of them was okay, I thought. I still haven't seen an adaptation that told that fight well, either. Even the ROTS novel is incredibly vague about what happened to Tiin, Kolar and Fisto during the fight.

Question about the fight between Anakin VS Obi-wan .. Obi-Wan supposedly had the advantage over Anakin and was able to defeat him with the strike that made him a gimp because he had the higher ground..
But padawan Obi wan was able to kill a sith apprentice Darth maul by jumping clean over Mauls head from down a shaft while he was looking at him, force snatching a light saber in the process then slicing him in two..

Am I wrong in thinking this doesn't add up?

kenobi probably taught him that move in the first place, and knew he would try that and was ready for it. maul however did not see it coming. i think the real question is "would anakin have been able to strike down maul the same way." imho yes.

edit: wrong forum section!

Originally posted by focus4chumps
kenobi probably taught him that move in the first place, and knew he would try that and was ready for it. maul however did not see it coming. i think the real question is "would anakin have been able to strike down maul the same way." imho yes.

That makes sense. But as I remember it (and mind you I haven't seen the movies in some time) Obi-wan stated 'higher ground' as being an advantage as if it was light saber battle 101. Not a declaration or insight to an advantage he gained threw knowledge of Anakins style/ability. But I could be wrong or it could be a blend of both 'I know how you'll attack since I taught you' and 'higher ground grants me advantage'

Originally posted by SevenShackles
That makes sense. But as I remember it (and mind you I haven't seen the movies in some time) Obi-wan stated 'higher ground' as being an advantage as if it was light saber battle 101. Not a declaration or insight to an advantage he gained threw knowledge of Anakins style/ability. But I could be wrong or it could be a blend of both 'I know how you'll attack since I taught you' and 'higher ground grants me advantage'

It was because he knew Darth Vader (that was his name at the time) could not "force jump" high enough to avoid Obi Wan's saber.

Darth Vader was over confident and thought he had become more powerful in the dark side...hence his words about becoming more powerful.

Had Darth Vader actually become more powerful than his recently deceased Anakin self (Obi Wan was intimately familiar with Anakin's abilities in the force), then Obi Wan would not have known that Anakin could jump clear of Obi Wan's lightsaber.

The Episode III video game shows the alternative outcome to their exchange. Darth Vader really does have the ups to clear Obi Wan's defense and he cuts Obi Wan in half.

^ah thank you both for helping me with this question. I appreciate it.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Nonetheless, Maul was horribly underused and it would have been better if Maul had actually DONE something in the film beforehand that would have made the stakes seem higher. It was actually a faintly irrelevant fight in the grand scheme of things.

After watching the duel several times and reading the novel, I believe the fight was designed specifically to kill QGJ. As I've noted on previous threads, watch the battle closely and you will see Maul dismisses OB1 over and over, then pushes him off the walkway and out of the fight. Even after QGJ is killed, Maul doesn't seem to aggressively go after the killing blow when he probably could have. After accomplishing his mission, he was sacrificed so OB1 would become Anakin's master. OB1 was not as focused on the "living force" per QGJ and would not train Anakin as well, leaving him open to Sidius' influence. So the fight was relevant for that goal.

Amazing and awesome. Anakin with a red saber would have been cooler, though.