Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Since Clone Wars has left me somewhat confused at times as to the power levels of the characters due to inconsistency, I thought this hierarchy thread would be a good idea.

These levels are to be based on TCW TV series ONLY. If it cannot be backed by feats or statements from the show, it is not valid - unless it widely and undisputedly accepted in canon, i.e the films, NOT novelizations, fanboy interpretations etc.

Because we are only using said sources, effectively it is a lay-man's interpretation of what is seen on-screen. No over-complicated or technical theories (i.e going in EU, going beyond allowed sources) are valid.

Based on these restrictions, you may not like the outcome, you may not think it is consistent with EU, your interpretation etc. That's okay, you are welcome to make your own thread with your own stipulations =)

Please rank the following in terms of overall skill and in the force (together or separately - up to you).

1. Sidious
2. Dooku
3. Ventress
4. Maul
5. Savage
6. Anakin
7. Obi-Wan
8. Ahsoka
9. Yoda
10. Mace Windu
11. Barriss Offee
12. Aayla Secura
13. Kit Fisto
14... Any other Force sensitives who have notable feats.

Feel free to split them into categories to show where a wider gap exists.

Here is my first attempt, without much thought, nor will I try to defend it =D

Top

1. Sidious
2. Yoda
3. Dooku
4. Mace

Mid

5. Maul
6. Savage
7. Aayla Secura
8. Anakin
9. Obi Wan
10. Ventress
11. Barriss Offee
12. Kit Fisto
13. Ahsoka

Originally posted by Placidity

1. Sidious
2. Dooku
3. Ventress
4. Maul
5. Savage
6. Anakin
7. Obi-Wan
8. Ahsoka
9. Yoda
10. Mace Windu
11. Barriss Offee
12. Aayla Secura
13. Kit Fisto
14... Any other Force sensitives who have notable feats.


Not sure if this is the right thread.. But if this is in an all out as of the current CW series then:

Top Dogs:
Yoda/Sidious
Windu/Dooku
Skywalker

Mid-level (but still pretty damn powerful):
Obi-Wan/Maul
Savage
Ventress/Barriss Offee (If it's dark side Barriss).

Lowest(on this thread):
Fisto
Ashoka/Secura


Force Wielders are dead otherwise of course they'd be on top.

But then Skywalker overpowered 2 of them so he could potentially be on top if he finds that power within himself again.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not sure if this is the right thread.. But if this is in an all out as of the current CW series then:

Top Dogs:
Yoda/Sidious
Windu/Dooku
Skywalker

Mid-level (but still pretty damn powerful):
Obi-Wan/Maul
Savage
Ventress/Barriss Offee (If it's dark side Barriss).

Lowest(on this thread):
Fisto
Ashoka/Secura


Force Wielders are dead otherwise of course they'd be on top.

But then Skywalker overpowered 2 of them so he could potentially be on top if he finds that power within himself again.
I agree with most of this, except Obi Wan is >= Anakin, and Kit Fisto is definitely a tier higher than Ashoka.

I don't remember seeing Mace or Yoda duel much, so they're not going to be on my list.

Anyway:

Sidious
Dooku
Obi-Wan
Anakin
Maul
Savage
Ventress
Grievous
Barriss
Ahsoka

No love for Aayla?

I think she is a complete badass, one of the fastest Jedi I've seen on TCW. I really love her style especially 0:26 - 0:30, it's awesome.

jPRADj7VdXk

Btw, at 0:25, is that Yoda she is keeping up with?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I agree with most of this, except Obi Wan is >= Anakin,

Not at all. Anakin is undoubtedly the more powerful of the two.

Yes, Kenobi beat Anakin, but then Anakin was at the time an emotional wreck. Frankly, Anakin seems to be more on par with Dooku (as we see almost consistently in the CW) than anything even without reaching "teh z0ne".

Originally posted by ares834
Frankly, Anakin seems to be more on par with Dooku (as we see almost consistently in the CW) than anything even without reaching "teh z0ne".

Dooku has almost always had the upper hand on Anakin, even taking on Obi-Wan at the same time as well.

IMO Anakin would not have lasted half the time Dooku did against Ventress and the Nightsisters.

I don;t know. They seem fairly even in almost every fight including those in the CWs. Dooku does hold an edge but it seems to be quite slight.

Originally posted by Placidity
No love for Aayla?

I think she is a complete badass, one of the fastest Jedi I've seen on TCW. I really love her style especially 0:26 - 0:30, it's awesome.

jPRADj7VdXk

Btw, at 0:25, is that Yoda she is keeping up with?

I remember Aayla, but I honestly don't think we saw enough of her to form a proper opinion.

==

While I don't believe Anakin is Dooku level, i do believe he's more powerful in the force than Obi-Wan. That said, I also believe that in terms of pure saber skills, Obi-Wan is superior. His experience on top of that makes me put him above Anakin in my list.

Does anyone feel like Savage got some major downgrades? In the beginning he was a beast and the writers made a point of introducing him as such, overpowering Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time. Slowly and gradually he just became "meh", didn't see much of that brute strength.

Yoda's big feat for me was him simply disarming and toying with Ventress. Anakin and Obi-Wan had to engage her in combat (and have never been successful). Yoda/Sidious are leagues above them.

They had to show Savage as being beatable. It was just that worfing that a lot of writers do when they introduce a new villain. then the hero figures them out, etc.

Yeah, Yoda had that feat, but that wasn't enough for me.

Originally posted by ares834


Yes, Kenobi beat Anakin, but then Anakin was at the time an emotional wreck. Frankly, Anakin seems to be more on par with Dooku (as we see almost consistently in the CW) than anything even without reaching "teh z0ne".

They're equal when fighting each other. But Anakin is the more powerful of the 2 and the more dangerous foe for the top dogs to face without a doubt.

Originally posted by Placidity


IMO Anakin would not have lasted half the time Dooku did against Ventress and the Nightsisters.

Well Dooku trounced Kenobi with such ease that Skywalker could never hope to.

But still Skywalker legitimately overpowered Dooku in ROTS. And their fights in the CW shows there's not much difference between them at this time period.

Originally posted by Placidity
Anakin and Obi-Wan had to engage her in combat (and have never been successful).

Kenobi beat her by himself in the Clone Wars movie. Anakin has never lost to Ventress and always seems to have the upper hand when up against her.

In the most recent episode he even Force Choked her. I don't think Ventress would fair too well against current CW Obi-Wan or Anakin tbh.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Well Dooku trounced Kenobi with such ease that Skywalker could never hope to.

But still Skywalker legitimately overpowered Dooku in ROTS. And their fights in the CW shows there's not much difference between them at this time period.


Hmm, from the fights I remember in TCW, Dooku to me is superior in saber and definitely in the force.

About RotS Anakin v Dooku, I have theories about that, but that's not for this thread. The other point I would make is that Anakin says he has grown twice as powerful since they last fought. Obviously he meant in Episode II, but if we take it to include TCW, then that would imply Dooku was likely much stronger than him throughout the series until Ep III.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Kenobi beat her by himself in the Clone Wars movie. Anakin has never lost to Ventress and always seems to have the upper hand when up against her.

In the most recent episode he even Force Choked her. I don't think Ventress would fair too well against current CW Obi-Wan or Anakin tbh.

Yea, I wouldn't put Ventress ahead of either of them, but she held her own very well against both of them on numerous occasions.

Regarding that latest fight, didn't seem like to me Ventress was really trying, not that she could since she had no sabers on her.

Originally posted by Placidity
Hmm, from the fights I remember in TCW, Dooku to me is superior in saber and definitely in the force.

If you watch the season 4 episode "Crisis on Naboo" it shows that if anyone had the edge in Sabers it was actually Anakin. But Dooku had the edge in the All-Out due to his Force powers.

Still it was clearly a close fight.



Originally posted by Placidity
Yea, I wouldn't put Ventress ahead of either of them, but she held her own very well against both of them on numerous occasions.

Regarding that latest fight, didn't seem like to me Ventress was really trying, not that she could since she had no sabers on her.

She was trying to resist the choke Imho. And of course her not having Sabers will not decrease her force powers.

Force

Mortis Anchorites

Sidious

Yoda
Talzin
Dooku/Mace
Maul/Savage
Anakin
Ventress/Obi-Wan
Barriss
Ahsoka


Skill

Sidious
Dooku
Anakin
Maul
Barriss
Obi-Wan
Savage
Ventress
Kit
Grievous
Ahsoka

Originally posted by Placidity
Does anyone feel like Savage got some major downgrades? In the beginning he was a beast and the writers made a point of introducing him as such, overpowering Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time. Slowly and gradually he just became "meh", didn't see much of that brute strength.


The impression I got is that Savage's brute strength caught a lot of more skilled foes off-guard... but then once they adjusted to it and got used to it, they could compensate for it, while he couldn't compensate for their skill.

I don't know why people are putting Maul above Kenobi as of the clone wars series. Kenobi defeated him and Savage at the same time. However I would assume new legs Maul > Grevious-like legs Maul.

Originally posted by ares834
Not at all. Anakin is undoubtedly the more powerful of the two.

Yes, Kenobi beat Anakin, but then Anakin was at the time an emotional wreck. Frankly, Anakin seems to be more on par with Dooku (as we see almost consistently in the CW) than anything even without reaching "teh z0ne". Anakin never defeated Obi Wan though, and Obi wan's victory over a distorted Anakin means that its unfair to put Anakin above Obi Wan.

Also I agree that Anakin is the more powerful of the two, but Obi Wan makes up for it in experience.

I would settle for them being equal to avoid arguments, although there will always be people who believe Obi Wan is superior or Anakin is superior.

Originally posted by mnat801
I don't know why people are putting Maul above Kenobi as of the clone wars series. Kenobi defeated him and Savage at the same time. However I would assume new legs Maul > Grevious-like legs Maul.

I've put them as approx in the same level. Because Kenobi has displayed more skill but Maul more power in the Force.

It could go either way tbh.

Originally posted by mnat801
Anakin never defeated Obi Wan though, and Obi wan's victory over a distorted Anakin means that its unfair to put Anakin above Obi Wan.

Also I agree that Anakin is the more powerful of the two, but Obi Wan makes up for it in experience.

I would settle for them being equal to avoid arguments, although there will always be people who believe Obi Wan is superior or Anakin is superior.

They're equal when fighting each other but Skywalker has proven himself the more lethal foe against other opponents.

There are a bunch of rumours floating around that this show's been cancelled. I hope it's not true...

Originally posted by -Pr-
There are a bunch of rumours floating around that this show's been cancelled. I hope it's not true...

Who cancels it? Is it Catoon Network?

Shouldn't be a problem since Disney could just air it on one of their channels. Or is that not how it works?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I've put them as approx in the same level. Because Kenobi has displayed more skill but Maul more power in the Force. Which is supported by what? Maul pushing the ship over the cliff in Revival? If so, what supports the fact that Kenobi can't do the same?




Originally posted by DARTH POWER
They're equal when fighting each other but Skywalker has proven himself the more lethal foe against other opponents. Which shows that he's more lethal than those other opponents, but not more lethal than Kenobi. Because Dooku seemed to be more lethal against Kenobi than Anakin was, but that doesn't make Dooku more superior than Anakin as of ROTS now does it?

Originally posted by mnat801
Which is supported by what? Maul pushing the ship over the cliff in Revival? If so, what supports the fact that Kenobi can't do the same?

Because Maul knocked him out with the Force. And he easily levitated him earlier with the Force. He also easily Force Choked Kenobi in a one on one in the Comic Sith Hunters set in between seasons 4 and 5 of TCW which has a special thanks to Dave Filoni and Katie Lucas.

So if you think Kenobi is a match for him in the force then your the only one. So it's for you to prove that. Not for me to assume for absolutely no reason that Kenobi can do the same feats.

How can that comic be canon?

TBH, I don't think Maul is more powerful in the force than Kenobi. I do think, though, that he has more of a tendency to use it in fights.

Originally posted by -Pr-
TBH, I don't think Maul is more powerful in the force than Kenobi. I do think, though, that he has more of a tendency to use it in fights.

I can't imagine Obi-Wan equaling Maul in skill or power in the Force and allowing himself to be ragdolled by Maul as frequently as he has been.

Off the top of my head, Obi-Wan has been on the receiving end of a Force pimpsmack from Maul in almost every encounter between them. Once in TPM, once in Sith Hunters, twice in "Revival," and once in "The Lawless" (though, to be fair, Obi-Wan was clearly dazed there).

Even if we disregard Maul's greater power, it cannot be denied that he is infinitely more skilled and clever in the application of the Force in combat than is Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by -Pr-
How can that comic be canon?

Dave Filoni and Katie Lucas both contributed to that comic. It actually filled in a lot of blanks about Maul's survival.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I can't imagine Obi-Wan equaling Maul in skill or power in the Force and allowing himself to be ragdolled by Maul as frequently as he has been.

Off the top of my head, Obi-Wan has been on the receiving end of a Force pimpsmack from Maul in almost every encounter between them. Once in TPM, once in Sith Hunters, twice in "Revival," and once in "The Lawless" (though, to be fair, Obi-Wan was clearly dazed there).

Even if we disregard Maul's greater power, it cannot be denied that he is infinitely more skilled and clever in the application of the Force in combat than is Obi-Wan.

I thought I had already implied that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dave Filoni and Katie Lucas both contributed to that comic. It actually filled in a lot of blanks about Maul's survival.

But I thought Obi-Wan only ran in to Maul for the first time in season 5. Unless I'm remembering wrong.

Originally posted by -Pr-



But I thought Obi-Wan only ran in to Maul for the first time in season 5. Unless I'm remembering wrong.

Not specified as far as I remember. But we do know Obi-Wan and the Jedi had been hunting for him between Seasons 4 & 5. The comic was about one of those failed missions to capture the Brothers.

Okay I just checked. I was remembering the last episode of season 4 as the start of season 5. My bad.

I've often found that implications often lead to mixed signals, which mutates into hurt feelings, culminating in premeditated murder.

I've been hurt before.

Better we just set aside implication for blunt statement.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I've often found that implications often lead to mixed signals, which mutates into hurt feelings, culminating in premeditated murder.

I've been hurt before.

Better we just set aside implication for blunt statement.

Okay.

I don't think Maul is particularly more powerful in the force than CW/ROTS Kenobi. I do think, though, that he is more accustomed to using it in fights, and does use it more effectively.

Much more effectively, really.

There is merit to your argument, I think. Feats alone do not confer absolute superiority: simply because Maul can tug starships around like a child's toy doesn't necessarily mean that Obi-Wan is incapable of it.

That said, it is difficult to ignore the consistent trend of Obi-Wan channeling the Fail Side of the Force with respect to TK in fights. I'd probably say that Maul is stronger in the Force/the dark side than is Obi-Wan, but that's due to a number of factors.

Obi-Wan has used the force a little in fights. Against Grievous most notably, against Anakin, and he did use it in his first fight with Maul to keep the guy off balance, so he's not entirely useless.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Obi-Wan has used the force a little in fights. Against Grievous most notably, against Anakin, and he did use it in his first fight with Maul to keep the guy off balance, so he's not entirely useless.

Yeah, I remember his "charged" push against Grievous in ROTS (Maul would have chuckled at its quaintness).

Speaking of that fight, since when was "I don't think so" the standard for witty responses?

Since they let Lucas write dialogue, I guess.

I don't think so

I can't think of any other reason lol

u see wut i did thur?

lol, yes, I did. And yours seemed more witty.

That's not saying a whole lot, really.

True...

I wonder if the hierarchy will shift at all with the few episodes we get before it's done for good.

No.

Lord Sidious rightly belongs at the top of the heap, like a dark god peering down at the plebeian horde beneath him with smug satisfaction.

I'm sure Sidious will be at the top anyway. Was more speaking about the middle of the tier.

The middle also belongs to Sidious. Everyone else must be shuffled to the ass end of the chain.

I see.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Because Maul knocked him out with the Force. And he easily levitated him earlier with the Force. He also easily Force Choked Kenobi in a one on one in the Comic Sith Hunters set in between seasons 4 and 5 of TCW which has a special thanks to Dave Filoni and Katie Lucas. Kenobi has force pushed Grevious multiple times, and the only reason he has not been knocked out is because of his armor. Jedi also use the force for good, that's why we tend to see less force feats from jedi. That's also why Kenobi never force chokes anyone. The main point is that just because Kenobi doesn't force choke anyone doesn't mean he can't.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So if you think Kenobi is a match for him in the force then your the only one. So it's for you to prove that. Not for me to assume for absolutely no reason that Kenobi can do the same feats. I don't need to prove anything because I'm not the one making the assumptions. YOU'RE making the assumption that Maul is better with the force. Maul COULD be stronger in the force than Kenobi, but theres no evidence of this being confirmed. You getting my drift?

I'll give you this: Maul uses the force more effectively in combat than Kenobi. But then, don't all sith do?....

Originally posted by mnat801
Kenobi has force pushed Grevious multiple times, and the only reason he has not been knocked out is because of his armor. Jedi also use the force for good, that's why we tend to see less force feats from jedi. That's also why Kenobi never force chokes anyone. The main point is that just because Kenobi doesn't force choke anyone doesn't mean he can't.

I don't need to prove anything because I'm not the one making the assumptions. YOU'RE making the assumption that Maul is better with the force. Maul COULD be stronger in the force than Kenobi, but theres no evidence of this being confirmed. You getting my drift?

I'll give you this: Maul uses the force more effectively in combat than Kenobi. But then, don't all sith do?....

No evidence? Maul's handled Kenobi with the Force multiple times. What more proof do I need?

Either he's simply more powerful or he uses it far more effectively in combat. Take your pick.

But either way that advantage goes to Maul which is why people rate Maul higher in the Force and why I've put Maul and Kenobi in the same league for an all-out.

Which is actually kind of me because the Force seems to be the bigger advantage in Maul's favor than Saber skills are in Kenobi's favor. Seen as Maul has knocked Kenobi senseless with the Force, but Kenobi has never actually put Maul down like that in Sabers.

I know your an Obi-Wan fan but just ignoring Maul consistently tossing him around and assuming Kenobi can do the same in a rematch based on nothing is taking your fandom a bit far.

Originally posted by -Pr-


I wonder if the hierarchy will shift at all with the few episodes we get before it's done for good.

There are still a few episodes coming? I heard S5 was the last.

Originally posted by Placidity
There are still a few episodes coming? I heard S5 was the last.

They had already made some episodes for season 6, so we will be getting those; we just don't know how yet.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No evidence? Maul's handled Kenobi with the Force multiple times. What more proof do I need? Everytime Maul has handled Kenobi was when Kenobi was at a disadvantage. He either was fighting Opress at the same time or had just fallen out of a crashing twilight.

And did you just ignore Kenobi's force feats that I just told you?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Either he's simply more powerful or he uses it far more effectively in combat. Take your pick. There's proof of his using the force more effectively in combat. That's not necessarily equivalent to being more powerful in the force. For example, you said yourself, Obi Wan and Anakin stalemated with the force in their duel, but that didn't mean they were equally powerful in the force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But either way that advantage goes to Maul which is why people rate Maul higher in the Force and why I've put Maul and Kenobi in the same league for an all-out.

Which is actually kind of me because the Force seems to be the bigger advantage in Maul's favor than Saber skills are in Kenobi's favor. Seen as Maul has knocked Kenobi senseless with the Force, but Kenobi has never actually put Maul down like that in Sabers. Im suprised actually. Because if you don't remember, Maul and Savage engaged Obi Wan in a lightsaber duel, and Obi Wan got the better of both of them, injured Opress, and Maul had to resort to his force powers to avoid him from making more damage. So I'd put Kenobi's saber skills as being a clear bigger advantage compared to Maul's force power.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I know your an Obi-Wan fan As you are an Anakin fan?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
but just ignoring Maul consistently tossing him around and assuming Kenobi can do the same in a rematch based on nothing is taking your fandom a bit far. How am I tossing him around!? You're the one assuming that he's more powerful in the force, so it seems more like you're tossing Obi Wan around.

Where as I never made a claim that Kenobi was more powerful in the force, I'm actually questioning YOUR claim.

Plus im not assuming anything. Your argument is that Maul is better in the force because he force pushed Kenobi into a wall and force chocked him. I've already showed that Kenobi can force push Grevious multiple times, so where am I assuming things? Its actually you assuming Maul is better in the force because we've seen his feats but not Kenobi's.

Originally posted by mnat801
Everytime Maul has handled Kenobi was when Kenobi was at a disadvantage. He either was fighting Opress at the same time or had just fallen out of a crashing twilight.

Actually your wrong. Both the times in Revival where Maul used the Force on Obi-Wan, he was facing Maul while Opress was down.

And in Sith Hunters it's the Sith who are outnumbered when Maul chokes Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by mnat801
And did you just ignore Kenobi's force feats that I just told you?


What? Pushing Grievous is supposed to compare to tossing a Jedi Craft?

Originally posted by mnat801
There's proof of his using the force more effectively in combat. That's not necessarily equivalent to being more powerful in the force. For example, you said yourself, Obi Wan and Anakin stalemated with the force in their duel, but that didn't mean they were equally powerful in the force.

Either way it's a major advantage to Maul when he's in combat with Obi-Wan.

Fact is it's Maul who keeps dominating Obi-Wan with the Force and Maul who has greater TK feats. So there's just absolutely no reason to question Maul's advantage there.

Originally posted by mnat801
Im suprised actually. Because if you don't remember, Maul and Savage engaged Obi Wan in a lightsaber duel, and Obi Wan got the better of both of them, injured Opress, and Maul had to resort to his force powers to avoid him from making more damage. So I'd put Kenobi's saber skills as being a clear bigger advantage compared to Maul's force power.

Yes that was after Adi died and he clearly gave a peak performance there as confirmed by Dave Filoni.

Fact is Kenobi fought Maul one on one before that, and there didn't seem to be much difference in their combat prowess.

And if we look at Maul's peak performance fully enraged in his last fight against Sidious, then I don't really think there's a huge gap between him and Kenobi in Sabers tbh.

Originally posted by mnat801
As you are an Anakin fan?

LOL So what? He's not in this fight. And I don't argue he's as good as Mace Windu or Count Dooku in the Force (well not under normal cirumstances) just because that's what I'd like to believe.



Originally posted by mnat801
Plus im not assuming anything. Your argument is that Maul is better in the force because he force pushed Kenobi into a wall and force chocked him. I've already showed that Kenobi can force push Grevious multiple times, so where am I assuming things? Its actually you assuming Maul is better in the force because we've seen his feats but not Kenobi's.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think Maul can beat Kenobi anytime with the Force. I just think it's a definitive advantage to Maul.

Just as Sabers is a definite advantage to Kenobi.

Honestly a fight between them can go either way.