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This ancient, space-faring species was native to the planet Lehon which was a temperate terrestrial world located within the Unknown Regions, a section of the galaxy uncharted by other species. They would establish the Infinite Empire that was centred around their homeworld of Lehon. However, it was only the decline of the Celestials influence in 35,000 BBY before the Galactic Republic that allowed a new power to enter into the galactic stage. Centuries before the scholars on Tython, the Rakata had discovered the Force and mastered it. This period marked the height of the reign of the Rakata. From Lehon, the Rakata used Force-based hyperdrives that allowed their vessels to journey to worlds with a strong Force signature. Some hypotheses over the hyperspace turbulence in the Unknown Regions claim that it was created to serve as a barrier between the Celestials and the upstart Rakata. This Rakatan empire would expand by thousands of light years in every direction. By circa 30,000 BBY, the Force-using Rakata had tunneled through hyperspace in order to lay claim to a modest "Infinite Empire". Their extensive civilization was spread across countless star systems and was much larger in size by later era empires.


Through the use of dark side-fueled technologies such as Force-powered hyperdrive, the Builders formed the Infinite Empire which dominated known space for thousands of years. Many of the most prominent worlds of the galaxy were included in this empire, such as, Corellia, Honoghr, Generis, Hijarna, Xo, and Dantooine falling under their dominion. However, their hyperdrives could only visit worlds possessing strong force signatures, making their empire have few worlds and much space between each. This haphazard nature of their empire allowed for numerous other civilizations to flourish, and loose confederacies of other civilizations managed to develop in the spaces between Rakatan worlds through the use of dangerous as well as unpredictable hyperdrive technology.


During their expansion, the Infinite Empire's forces managed to defeat this era's other great powers which included the Gree Enclave and the Kwa Holdings. The Rakata had fought bitter conflicts against the Gree and drove them back to their home cluster and nearly exterminated the Kwa. According to the beliefs of the Nightsisters, the usage of the Kwa Infinity Gates created unnatural voids and wounds to Dathomir that saw the Spirits call the Infinite Empire to the planet. Their arrival decimated the Kwa who were transformed into an animal state by the action of the Spirits. With their victory, the Rakata took Dathomir under their rule and even transported the native rancors to their homeworld of Lehon as curiosities. The powerful, Force-wielding Rakata may have even displaced the most advanced species of that time period, including the Killiks of Alderaan and the Sharu of the Rafa system, during their meteoric rise to power. Among the other noted achievement made by the Rakata was the capture of the World Razer and imprisoning it within the core of a prison world that was Belsavis.

The Infinite Empire

Being a war-like and cruel race, the greater dangers posed by the Rakata was the fact that they were strong in the Force along with being technologically advanced. They were known to enslave or wipe out every civilization they encountered. They were also known to have had been both cruel and manipulative masters of those they enslaved. At its height, the Empire governed 500 worlds and its population numbered ten billion Rakatan warriors and one trillion slaves. Among its conquests were the Selkath of Manaan, Wookiees of Kashyyyk, Kumumgah of Tatooine, Noghri of Honoghr, and the natives of the Corellian sector. This saw the likes of humans, Duros, Selonians, and Drall, along with the Selkath being enslaved for millennia. By transporting these slave species to new worlds, the Rakata were believed to have inadvertently seeded swaths of the galaxy with sentient life. Furthermore, they made use of Coruscanti Workers and Corellian slaves to create weapons of colossal scale. On Mygeeto millennia ago, beautiful crystal formations were shaped by slaves of the Infinite Empire to commemorate a long-forgotten victory. At its peak, nearly five hundred conquered worlds paid tribute to the Rakata Infinite Empire.


At some unknown point, the Infinite Empire came under threat from a marauding horde of aliens known as the Esh-kha. These aliens raided world after world where they destroyed their inhabitants before continuing their campaign. Such actions led to the loss of several Rakatan slave worlds to the Esh-kha before the Infinite Empire assembled its military might to challenge this threat. The Rakata hated the Esh-kha and refered to them as a plague on the galaxy due to their actions. The resultant conflict engulfed the entire galaxy and led to the near extinction of the Esh-kha. Only a hundred thousand survivors lived by the time the Infinite Empire won the war with these remaining Esh-kha being imprisoned on Belsavis where they were placed in stasis. The technology preserved the species but left them conscious with the Rakata believing that such a punishment would teach the Esh-kha the error of their ways. The reputation of the Esh-kha led to the Infinite Empire even imprisoning Hallow Voice and his peaceful Esh-kha followers on Belsavis. The great victory achieved by the Infinite Empire led to the Rakata creating a monument on the planet Hoth that contained an interactive hologram that spoke of their victory over the Esh-kha.


The Infinite Empire, officially established in 35,000 BBY, dominated pockets of the galaxy for 9,800 years and enslaved numerous developing species including the Dantaris, Duros, Humans, Hutts, Kumumgah, Selkath, Sith, Wookiees and Zhells. At its height, it consisted of more than 500 enslaved-subject worlds with a population of ten billion Rakata and one trillion slaves. At the empire's height in 30,000 BBY, the Rakata had completed the construction of the Star Forge, which was above their homeworld's star of Abo.

See, this one actually has an argument for it, unlike your others!

Now, we have very little info on the specific powers of the Rakatan, but there was a giant empire of them! They were very likely the most numerous, though the TOR Sith could've very well passed them, and Dawn of the Jedi shows they have at least some strong individuals.


They aren't some mono-planetary minor order, after all, they ruled the galaxy, though a 'galaxy' much much less explored and colonized than in later eras.

Oooh, wait, I get it! This, the Matukai and ZS threads, it all comes together!

You're a hipster!

Whatever the most popular force using organization of a side, well, pssh, they're too mainstream! It's obviously the most obscure one you can find in Wookiepedia that's the strongest! ... no, wait, not wookiepedia, the item list of KotoR 2! That's where you discover all the factions you mention!


That's why you didn't go for the Sorcerers of Tund or Legion of Lettow ^^

Oh here we go.

I could see this one. Given they apparently had a good deal of the galaxy under their control, I could see weight of numbers and technology bringing them a win.

The Star Forge is impressive enough, I think. Though a Dark Side one has quite a bit of competition due to the number of powerful sects.

Originally posted by Pwned
I could see this one. Given they apparently had a good deal of the galaxy under their control, I could see weight of numbers and technology bringing them a win.

The Star Forge is impressive enough, I think. Though a Dark Side one has quite a bit of competition due to the number of powerful sects.

And they're a full species, and not one held to just a small group of worlds like the Sith, at that. Who even used non-Rakatan force users as 'hounds'.


Later-era military tech is more powerful so some of the others had greater military force, but in raw number of force users they should be way up there.

Originally posted by Q99
See, this one actually has an argument for it, unlike your others!

Now, we have very little info on the specific powers of the Rakatan, but there was a giant empire of them! They were very likely the most numerous, though the TOR Sith could've very well passed them, and Dawn of the Jedi shows they have at least some strong individuals.


They aren't some mono-planetary minor order, after all, they ruled the galaxy, though a 'galaxy' much much less explored and colonized than in later eras. Oh my other threads had arguments and confirmed the thread titles to be true, why you may wonder? well... here it is.

The Zeison Sha are the most powerful light side order and lets go through the reasons why.

The mind is more powerful then both the body & spirit, i wondered what level were the Zeison Sha on telekinetically?

"I had heard that Zeison Sha are masters of the telekinetic powers, but I was astonished to see that their abilities in this area far surpass those of many Jedi."
―Jedi Master Bodo Baas

And what could a experienced master of telekinesis do i wonder?

It would appear Tulak was also a master of telekinesis. According to Khem Val when the Inquisitor sees the ruins of the Endar Spire, "The great Tulak Hord once pulled a ship this size from the sky."

And coincidentally all Zeison Sha Warriors were masters of telekinesis and other telekinetic powers. Provided with the fact they could fly while pulling down ships. Which is something that little to no jedi have done.

I wonder how many ways is the Zeison Sha's telekinetic ability superior?

Their telekinetic ability was, in many ways, superior to that evidenced by many members of the Jedi Order.

And because of their survival skills and mastery with telekinesis & telekinetic force powers....

They survived the attempts during the Great Jedi Purge to stamp them out, later avoiding Darth Vader and other Jedi hunters.

0% casualties due to the fact there were powerful as well as wise.

Zeison Sha in comparison to the jedi are more powerful due to the listed reasons above .

Lets go through the reasons why the Matukai order are the most powerful physically, and 2nd most powerful as an light side order.


Distinguished as among the best martial artists in the galaxy, the Matukai made their own bodies the focus of their abilities, and were capable of using physical exercise and discipline as a form of meditation. Keeping their focus inward, Matukai philosophy differed from that of the Jedi Order in that the Jedi saw physical exercise and meditation as separate; however, this inward focus allowed Matukai adherents such a degree of control over their bodies as to develop an otherwise negligible connection to the Force into a far more significant source of strength.


Considered to be masters of their physical bodies, the Matukai were capable of drawing on the force to strengthen and augment their bodies to unnatural limits. In doing this, they could refresh their spirits with a tireless energy that allowed them to exert their bodies far past their unaided physical limits for hours at a time without tiring. Because of this stamina, Matukai were capable of executing physical feats such as tumbling, running, leaping, and complex martial sequences with an astonishing speed described as a "whirlwind" blur of limbs and movement, additionally, this refreshing of spirit augmented the strength and resolve of a Matukai's blows, allowing them feats of strength and power exceeding what their bodies were capable of. In addition to this outward physical mastery, Matukai were known for their inward mastery and self-awareness of their own bodies, and were able to discern wounds, injuries, and sickness with ease. The Matukai learned to purge illness and poison from their bodies, and even become immune to them altogether, to the point where a fully-trained Matukai could shrug off the effects of a normally-fatal sting from a poisonous kouhun. Trained Matukai could also raise or lower their body temperature to survive in hot or cold environments, or even cause their skin to become so hot as to burn anything they touched. More experienced Matukai adepts could also give normally soft parts of their body unnatural rigidity to help drastically reduce physical damage.

Simply Matukai adepts can't be affected and killed by fatal poisons and illnesses.

In short Matukai adepts were proficient enough to execute punches, kicks, and flips in such complex martial sequences so fast, that it creates a "whirlwind" blur of limbs and movement. Provided Matukai adepts they are able to refresh their spirits with a tireless energy when fatigued. Not only did the refreshment gives immediate replenishment, but also permanent augmentation in their strength and power that exceeds what their bodies are capable of. A benefit that doubles every time they refresh their spirits. Nevertheless the Matukai order have a superior physical progression system.

I had wondered what level can Matukai adepts wield their wan-shens?

The signature weapon of the Matukai was a polearm weapon called the wan-shen, which was tipped on one end with a short-singled edged blade. Each wan-shen was unique and bore patterns etched into the blade to symbolize things important to its creator. Most wan-shens could be broken down into easily-stored pieces, and trained users could whirl it around their bodies in combat, using themselves as a central axis of rotation. Due to their own physical control, Matukai were capable of wielding the blade with a speed that sometimes astonished onlookers, which was described as a virtual whirlwind of metal and blades. As such, they were considered excellent combatants with weapons in addition to hand-to-hand combat. Matukai saw the weapon as an external focus for the Force, as well as a means of self-defense. The Matukai were agile to the point of being able to dodge or deflect a sizable portion of incoming strikes or shots aimed at them, and enjoyed greatly increased balance and stamina due to their connection to the Force. They were also known for their adaptability to any situation.

So Matukai adepts were able to use wan-shens at such a fast speed, that it was seen as a man made replicated moving hellicopter propeller, a virtual whirlwind in short.

I have never seen a Jedi punch, kick, and and flip so fast it creates a "whirlwind" blur of limbs and movement. I Have never seen Jedis possess endless amounts of stamina while getting continually stronger physically. I have never seen a Jedi develop a physical immunity to all poisons & illnesses. I have never seen a Jedi wield their weapons at the same speed of a moving helicopter's propeller (Virtual whirlwind). I have never seen a jedi able to get shot 45 times by blaster rifles and survive. I have never seen the Jedi Order build up force sensitivity in individuals who weren't gifted with force sensitivity. I have never Seen the Jedi order solve the problem of their Light vs Dark conflicts. That later cause millions upon millions of needless deaths across the galaxy.

The Matukai done all these things, which is why they have been limited to 60 every generation. If a Matukai broke their tradition of 60 and decided they should be just as numberous as the Jedi order. There would be no point in joining the Jedi anymore. Since the Matukai order have the superior physical progression system. And among their Order, they have no Light vs Dark conflicts among their own.

Simply. The Matukai Order are the most powerful Light Side order physically, and they are perfect in mindset. Which deems them the 2nd Most powerful Light side order.

I don't know if you understand the differences between Proficiency and Ability, but you will. Most of the Jedi Order have the ability to use Hand-To-Hand combat and martial arts, but not at the whirlwind proficiency and complexity of a Matukai adept. Most Jedi masters of the order have the ability to use the Lightsaber style known as Jar-Kar. Whch is a Lightsaber style that requires a Jedi to swing his lightsaber fast in a almost vertical column, thus creates a brilliant whirlwind. Its not at the speed of a Matukai's virtual whirlwind. Jar-Kar creates a brilliant whirlwind due to the Jedi swinging his lightsaber fast in a almost vertical column. A brilliant whirlwind doesn't reach the speed of a Virtual Whirlwind, which is a man made replicated whirlwind.

If you don't think about any of what i just said, nor understood any of that, then my view of you is true

Originally posted by Q99
Oooh, wait, I get it! This, the Matukai and ZS threads, it all comes together!

You're a hipster!

Whatever the most popular force using organization of a side, well, pssh, they're too mainstream! It's obviously the most obscure one you can find in Wookiepedia that's the strongest! ... no, wait, not wookiepedia, the item list of KotoR 2! That's where you discover all the factions you mention!


That's why you didn't go for the Sorcerers of Tund or Legion of Lettow ^^ No i give credit when credit is due, and those other orders deserve to be credited for their prowess, not ignored. Its True the items list on KOTOR 2 introduced me to more force using traditions, but thats because i read all their descriptions. And once i read them, i decided to take a deeper dive into more force organizations, which lead me to Star Wars comics, and Wookieepedia.

The Sorcerers of Tund are just individuals that are really good with Dark Side illusions, illusions can be saw through. I don't even know what made your corrupted thought process visualize me listing them as the most powerful dark side order, they are extinct due to their lack of power.

The Legion of Lettow are a whole bunch of nobodies. I never heard of them. And now since im just learning about their existence from you, that says they are just Dark Side Jedi with a different philosophy from other Dark Side force using sects. They aren't important.

Oh god damn it, he went and ruined a possible debate thread. Get the **** out of here with your nonsense.

And by the way, the Legions were the first Dark Jedi, really. Academy that studied the Dark Side, check. Fought a massive war with the Jedi, check. Waged simultaneous campaigns on several planets, check. Yeah, they meant something.





Anyways, I think the fact that they outnumber the others so heavily is why they can claim it.

Originally posted by Pwned
Oh god damn it, he went and ruined a possible debate thread. Get the **** out of here with your nonsense.

And by the way, the Legions were the first Dark Jedi, really. Academy that studied the Dark Side, check. Fought a massive war with the Jedi, check. Waged simultaneous campaigns on several planets, check. Yeah, they meant something.





Anyways, I think the fact that they outnumber the others so heavily is why they can claim it. Oh no i didn't ruin anything, i confirmed everything i said. Most of what i said is copy & pasted from wookieepedia except 5 paragraphs. So get the **** outta here with your stupidity.

You did. Those 5 paragraphs? Those were your argument in that thread.


As I said, this one has a debateable chance. THough the Empire was technically a species, not an Order. But that is just semantics.

Originally posted by Pwned
You did. Those 5 paragraphs? Those were your argument in that thread.


As I said, this one has a debateable chance. THough the Empire was technically a species, not an Order. But that is just semantics. Yes most of my reply in direction to Q99's smart alec post was from wookieepedia. I just decrypted the meanings on the sources compilation information on wookieepedia.

The Sith Empire has NO chance against the Rakatan Infinite Empire. The Rakatan Infinite Empire consisted of 10,000,000,000 powerful Rakatan Force Masters, along with a Star Forge that builds an Infinite amount of the Highest Grade Battle Droids, Weapons, Armor, Vehicles, And Ships. Provided that the Star Forge is above a planet sized Dark Side energy that Rakatans can feed off of to get even Stronger. Heck that Star Forge is the reason Rakata were able to live for over mellinas, crushing all who dared to challenge their might.

Where did you get that number?

And I doubt they were ALL, "Force Masters"

Certainly there were some, but not that many. I doubt there were even that many beings in the entire species.

Also, the Sith Empire has a chance, due to the fact that their highest showings put them beyond an unknown like the Rakata. The reason they stand a chance at most powerful is due to the left over accomplishments that we have seen, and the fact that it was in-universe acknowledged to not have been their best.



By the way, you didn't, "decrypt" anything. You made it up and claimed you were a canon source.

Originally posted by Pwned
Where did you get that number?

And I doubt they were ALL, "Force Masters"

Certainly there were some, but not that many. I doubt there were even that many beings in the entire species.

Also, the Sith Empire has a chance, due to the fact that their highest showings put them beyond an unknown like the Rakata. The reason they stand a chance at most powerful is due to the left over accomplishments that we have seen, and the fact that it was in-universe acknowledged to not have been their best.



By the way, you didn't, "decrypt" anything. You made it up and claimed you were a canon source. No it was already said that the Rakatan Warriors discovered and mastered the force. Ten billion in numbers is 10,000,000,000. 10,000,000,000 Rakatan Force Masters. The Most powerful Rakatan force wielders were the Builders, which consisted of 5.

The Sith empire stand no chance, UNLESS you combine all sith Eras constisting of the most powerful, and other Dark Side force using sects.

And where did you get the number of 10 billion?

Or hell, even the number of 5?







Whatever. I am just going to let this thread die. Have fun with whatever delusions you have.

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
The Most powerful Rakatan force wielders were the Builders, which consisted of 5. 5 builders? Hardly a threat.

Originally posted by Pwned
And where did you get the number of 10 billion?

Or hell, even the number of 5?







Whatever. I am just going to let this thread die. Have fun with whatever delusions you have. The number of ten billion powerful Rakatan force masters came from wookieepedia's article on them, read it before you come to bold yet stupid conclusions.

I don't have any delusions on anything. Have fun thinking the Sith Empire can defeat the 1st and most powerful Dark side order(:

So where did you get the number 5 from?

http://www.freewebs.com/tallcat/all_5_builders.jpg

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So where did you get the number 5 from? The number of 5 Rakatan Builders came from wookieepedia. They explained there were Rakatan Builders acting as a tribe leaders.

They built the Star Forge, it's obvious they must be like UBAR verisons of Luke, Sidious, Sith Emperor, Revan AND Yoda!

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
The number of 5 Rakatan Builders came from wookieepedia. They explained there were Rakatan Builders acting as a tribe leaders. The English language clearly isn't a friend of yours. You know that "Builders" is another name for the Rakata? It isn't a separate class or caste, it's a synonym for the species' name.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The English language clearly isn't a friend of yours. You know that "Builders" is another name for the Rakata? It isn't a separate class or caste, it's a synonym for the species' name. You know you just made a misconception? The Builders weren't all the Rakata, but the ones leading the 10,000,000,000 Rakatan Warriors, the ones who were being controlled of by the Star Forge's influence. Due to the builders mysteriously losing their connection to the force while being controlled by the Star Forge's influence, this started conflicts within tribes of the Rakata, since the builders weren't getting along, while being at constant odds with each other.

Get your facts straight.

No, seriously. Keep up the good work. Most attention seekers don't put as much detail in to their bullshit as you. Kudos.

Oh SWL, your comments on those other two have been shot down with proof so many times...

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No, seriously. Keep up the good work. Most attention seekers don't put as much detail in to their bullshit as you. Kudos. You can call it what you want. You're just another one of those bow jockin idiots. You can't decrypt word based definitions concerning other star wars controversial subjects, but rather you wait for one of the creators to give point black understand concerning the subject of note in order to get verification. I don't bullshit, but this little reply of yours just says you're another one of those people who use their eyes 90% more then their perception.

Hey, question! Who else here reads Dawn of the Jedi, the comic that actually contains the Rakata as live, active figures?

Show of hands? *Raises mine*

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
You can call it what you want. You're just another one of those bow jockin idiots. You can't decrypt word based definitions concerning other star wars controversial subjects, but rather you wait for one of the creators to give point black understand concerning the subject of note in order to get verification. I don't bullshit, but this little reply of yours just says you're another one of those people who use their eyes 90% more then their perception.

Hehe, 'decrypt' words to say something other than what they actually say?

There's hiding meanings, and then there's making stuff up that's not in what's said or that actually contradicts what's said. Here's a hit, what you do is the latter.

In general, here's a hint, Wookieepedia, SW reference books, and KotoR2 equipment descriptions, and Databank entries don't have hidden meanings. They are, in fact, designed to be accessible and strait forward in the information they convey.


If you try and claim hiding meanings in a data entry designed to convey information clearly, then you're just blowing smoke.

Originally posted by Q99
Oh SWL, your comments on those other two have been shot down with proof so many times... Oh nothing i have said has been shot down. Zeison Sha Warriors are unmatched in telekinetic force powers, as well as powerful combatants, they can fly into the air while pulling down ships. Bodo Baas proved Zeison Sha Warriors are masters of Telekinesis. Khem Val proved a Master of Telekinesis can pull down ships of all sizes. And the Star Wars Roleplaying game Hero's guide proved Zeison Sha Warriors can use their telekinesis to ascend their bodies into the sky. (Which is flying)

Because of the Zeison Sha Warrior's abilities and proficiencies, they had 0% casualties during the Great Jedi Purge.

Matukai Adept are the unparalleled physical combatants that get stronger overtime. Also the Matukai have no Light vs Dark Conflicts, which is the perfect mindset as a Light Side order.

The Rakatan Infinite Empire is the 1st and Most powerful Dark Side order. The Zeison Sha is the Powerful Light Side Order. The Matukai are the 2nd Most powerful Light Side Order.

No matter how much everyone here hates that fact, its true.

Also stop choosing to reply to my threads when i go offline. Reply to me while im Online, don't wait for me to go Offline. That just shows you are a condescending hypocritical individual.

Originally posted by Q99
Hey, question! Who else here reads Dawn of the Jedi, the comic that actually contains the Rakata as live, active figures?

Show of hands? *Raises mine*



Hehe, 'decrypt' words to say something other than what they actually say?

There's hiding meanings, and then there's making stuff up that's not in what's said or that actually contradicts what's said. Here's a hit, what you do is the latter.

In general, here's a hint, Wookieepedia, SW reference books, and KotoR2 equipment descriptions, and Databank entries don't have hidden meanings. They are, in fact, designed to be accessible and strait forward in the information they convey.


If you try and claim hiding meanings in a data entry designed to convey information clearly, then you're just blowing smoke. No what i do is decryption, since everyone here is contradicting wookieepedia, and seem to not understand the definitions to certain words are, like "Virtual Whirlwnd" which is a moving helicopter's propeller.

I don't know whether if everyone here doesn't understand the definitions of key words, or maybe due to a lack of perception.

Wait...... you're a grown woman playing with Rakata ACTION FIGURES!? Disregard that(:

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Oh nothing i have said has been shot down. Zeison Sha Warriors are unmatched in telekinetic force powers,

Not according to the quote you posted, which merely said they're better than 'most' Jedi. Not all, most. Why qualify with most if others can match them?

And the Hero's guide says similar, but only 'many.'



Actually, there's no examples of Zeison Sha pulling down ships, and there are examples of Jedi doing so.

No mention of them doing multiple powers at once like that either.




I'll mention: One, nothing in the book mentions them flying, so that's a lie to say it's in there, and two, Jedi have levitated themselves too.

If they levitate themselves, it is simply through the use of the same generic powers the Jedi use.



Aaaand this is made-up, nothing says or implies no casualties at any point, and even mentions that them making through the dark times involved 'enduring' and 'struggle'.

It should also be noted that their defensive abilities are generally lower than Jedi Guardians of equal level- they don't have a lightsaber to deflect blaster bolts, they have to rely on offense and force shields that are tiring and can be worn down.


Not to mention:
"From the last days of the old republic though the dark times and even through the early days of the new republic, they struggle to avoid contact with the Jedi and Darth Vader's hunter squads."

Directly stated, their primary survival tactic was hiding. Nothing to do with their combat prowess at all.

Now, let us remembered how the Dark Times ended: With Jedi beating Sith. With Luke defeating Darth Vader and turning him. With Luke killing Palpatine's clones. With Kyle Katarn killing Imperial Inquisitors.

With Luke winning where the Zeison Sha avoided.



Nothing says 'unparalleled,' in fact directly contradicted by 'Jedi Path' which lists them as merely 'among' the best martial artists.

Also, most combatants get stronger over time. It's normal. Anakin and Luke got crazy stronger over time with training.




It's funny how I have much more information on all of these orders than you, and the stuff you say that makes them so great is primarily stuff we've seen Jedi do.




So it's not enough for you to be disproven repeatedly with my actual sources, I gotta pay attention to when you're online and disprove you on a schedule too?

I'm going to say 'no.'



While I am admittedly being a bit condescending, largely because I find it not to be when someone's trying to preach to me about the great powers of factions they don't have the books on and I do, that's not even what hypocritical means.


Hypocritical is more of how you accuse others of lying when you get caught in lies that contradict even the sources and quotes you provide.

Q99 is correct on all those points.



Oh, and you lied about them being Force Masters. Most of the species was only barely Force Sensitive. Not even able to do basic TK. Or Precog. Or anything really important.

Originally posted by Q99
Not according to the quote you posted, which merely said they're better than 'most' Jedi. Not all, most. Why qualify with most if others can match them?

And the Hero's guide says similar, but only 'many.'



Actually, there's no examples of Zeison Sha pulling down ships, and there are examples of Jedi doing so.

No mention of them doing multiple powers at once like that either.




I'll mention: One, nothing in the book mentions them flying, so that's a lie to say it's in there, and two, Jedi have levitated themselves too.

If they levitate themselves, it is simply through the use of the same generic powers the Jedi use.



Aaaand this is made-up, nothing says or implies no casualties at any point, and even mentions that them making through the dark times involved 'enduring' and 'struggle'.

It should also be noted that their defensive abilities are generally lower than Jedi Guardians of equal level- they don't have a lightsaber to deflect blaster bolts, they have to rely on offense and force shields that are tiring and can be worn down.


Not to mention:
"From the last days of the old republic though the dark times and even through the early days of the new republic, they struggle to avoid contact with the Jedi and Darth Vader's hunter squads."

Directly stated, their primary survival tactic was hiding. Nothing to do with their combat prowess at all.

Now, let us remembered how the Dark Times ended: With Jedi beating Sith. With Luke defeating Darth Vader and turning him. With Luke killing Palpatine's clones. With Kyle Katarn killing Imperial Inquisitors.

With Luke winning where the Zeison Sha avoided.



Nothing says 'unparalleled,' in fact directly contradicted by 'Jedi Path' which lists them as merely 'among' the best martial artists.

Also, most combatants get stronger over time. It's normal. Anakin and Luke got crazy stronger over time with training.




It's funny how I have much more information on all of these orders than you, and the stuff you say that makes them so great is primarily stuff we've seen Jedi do.




So it's not enough for you to be disproven repeatedly with my actual sources, I gotta pay attention to when you're online and disprove you on a schedule too?

I'm going to say 'no.'



While I am admittedly being a bit condescending, largely because I find it not to be when someone's trying to preach to me about the great powers of factions they don't have the books on and I do, that's not even what hypocritical means.


Hypocritical is more of how you accuse others of lying when you get caught in lies that contradict even the sources and quotes you provide. Of course there are no examples of them flying while pulling down ships, from what we can see. But Zeison Sha Warrior's ability to do the said feats have been confirmed by 2 individuals. Bodo Baas and Khem Val.

Zeison Sha Warriors don't levitate, they fly.

Yeah from what Bodo Baas saw Zeison Sha Warriors are Masters of telekinetics and their ability was in many ways superior to that evidenced by many members of the Jedi order. The Zeison Sha warriors Resisted the imperial occupation on their planet, eventually pushing them back. They later decided to avoid Darth Vader and future Jedi hunters. Zeison Sha are a self sacrificial isolationist type order. They only cared for the safety of the colonist on their planet, nothing more. That's why they chose to Avoid Darth Vader and Jedi hunters after their conflict on their planet.

"Its similar to what Obi Wan Kenobi did"

Annnd nothing disproves the Zeison Sha's survival with 0% percent casualties. If you have evidence Link it, if not S.T.F.U with the "nothing says this routine"

Matukai are unparalleled in physical strength, they get stronger everytime they refresh their spirits.

So basically you just metaphorically said you're just another one of those atheist........ This corrupted mindset is where that hypocrisy comes from, its not a surprise to be frank.

Oh and here's the definition of hypocrisy (A.K.A Q99)

The practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.

A hypocritical person is someone who goes against what he originally said, A.K.A you.

All in all, GET TO STEPPIN.

Originally posted by Pwned
Q99 is correct on all those points.



Oh, and you lied about them being Force Masters. Most of the species was only barely Force Sensitive. Not even able to do basic TK. Or Precog. Or anything really important. I didn't lie about anything. The Rakatan Infinite Empire were all force masters. How do you think they manged 1,000,000,000,000 slaves from 10,000,000,000 Rakata? ******** Be quiet Bow jocker, and let this thread die like you said you were gonna do? oh wait CONTRADICTION

*Checks quotes*

Nope, neither say that. Lie.



Indeed, many, but not all.



Ah hem, it pointed out they started during the Old Republic, meaning they were already in the habit of avoiding even before there were formal Jedi hunters.

Also the occupation of their planet lasted throughout the dark times.



Burden of proof, if nothing says it, it cannot be assumed. Especially as it doesn't fit with the descriptions- the posted descriptions- of lasting through the dark times being something they endured.

"Nothing says this," is a barrier that must be cleared by rules of evidence. If nothing indicates it, then it's not true, it's just made-up.

Now, let me explain to you why this is the case, with examples.

Did you hear about the Great Zeison Sha slaughter of 1200BBY? It seems a Jedi apprentice landed there and killed half the order on their own, before leaving. That's why the Zeison Sha hate Jedi so much.

Nothing says it happened, but nothing says it didn't happen.

Did you hear about the Jedi who defeated 40 Matukai and 40 Zeison Sha at once, by using the force to make their heads explode?

Nothing says it happened, or that someone can just use the force to make heads explode, but nothing says it didn't happen.

If one is willing to enter things with no proof, then there is no reason to disallow either of those.

If, on the other hand, one requires at least some evidence to exist, then those are out too, in addition to yours.

Hence, burden of proof, and why I do not go for things that nothing indicates is true.




And I've been quite consistent in what I've said in my points.

You've done a lot of accusing of lying and hypocrisy, but just as you can't prove your points, you haven't been able to prove any of that either.

Which, ironically, proves you guilty of both of them yourself.

Originally posted by Q99
*Checks quotes*

Nope, neither say that. Lie.



Indeed, many, but not all.



Ah hem, it pointed out they started during the Old Republic, meaning they were already in the habit of avoiding even before there were formal Jedi hunters.

Also the occupation of their planet lasted throughout the dark times.



Burden of proof, if nothing says it, it cannot be assumed. Especially as it doesn't fit with the descriptions- the posted descriptions- of lasting through the dark times being something they endured.

"Nothing says this," is a barrier that must be cleared by rules of evidence. If nothing indicates it, then it's not true, it's just made-up.

Now, let me explain to you why this is the case, with examples.

Did you hear about the Great Zeison Sha slaughter of 1200BBY? It seems a Jedi apprentice landed there and killed half the order on their own, before leaving. That's why the Zeison Sha hate Jedi so much.

Nothing says it happened, but nothing says it didn't happen.

Did you hear about the Jedi who defeated 40 Matukai and 40 Zeison Sha at once, by using the force to make their heads explode?

Nothing says it happened, or that someone can just use the force to make heads explode, but nothing says it didn't happen.

If one is willing to enter things with no proof, then there is no reason to disallow either of those.

If, on the other hand, one requires at least some evidence to exist, then those are out too, in addition to yours.

Hence, burden of proof, and why I do not go for things that nothing indicates is true.




And I've been quite consistent in what I've said in my points.

You've done a lot of accusing of lying and hypocrisy, but just as you can't prove your points, you haven't been able to prove any of that either.

Which, ironically, proves you guilty of both of them yourself. What could a master of telekinesis do? oh here's copy & pasted sentences from wookieepedia.

It would appear Tulak was also a master of telekinesis. According to Khem Val when the Inquisitor sees the ruins of the Endar Spire, "The great Tulak Hord once pulled a ship this size from the sky."

And i wonder who were all masters of telekinesis and other telekinetic powers?

"I had heard that Zeison Sha are masters of the telekinetic powers, but I was astonished to see that their abilities in this area far surpass those of many Jedi."


Put 2 & 2 together what does that mean? Its a fact Zeison Sha can ascend into the shy and pull down ships of all sizes, no matter how much you may hate it.

Eh, changed my mind. Decided I would humor you and prove you wrong more. The more lulz to be had.





No proof they were Force Masters. If you have it, show it. Give the source as well.

Just because one guy could pull down a ship doesn't mean they can, let alone while using Force Levitation. Seriously, that is Yoda tier shit. And these random nobodies just can't do that. Sucks to be you, what with your claims.

Originally posted by Pwned
Eh, changed my mind. Decided I would humor you and prove you wrong more. The more lulz to be had.





No proof they were Force Masters. If you have it, show it. Give the source as well.

Just because one guy could pull down a ship doesn't mean they can, let alone while using Force Levitation. Seriously, that is Yoda tier shit. And these random nobodies just can't do that. Sucks to be you, what with your claims. The point to those Copy & Pasted messages were. A master of Telekinesis can pull down ships. The lower ranked Zeison Sha Warriors are Masters of Telekinesis. They can ascend into the sky and pull down ships. I was just about to say the same thing you said about Yoda, since Yoda is the only Jedi i can think that mastered Telekinesis. But Zeison Sha Warriors have Yoda's telekinetic mastery on a common range, meaning they can pull down ships of all sizes on a common basis.

Re-read the first message on this thread, that proves the Rakatan Infinite Empire were all force masters. Heck it specifically said in Wookieepedia "Rakatan Warriors discovered and mastered the force" there were 10,000,000,000 Rakatan Warriors in total. So put 2 & 2 together and what does that mean?

No, it said the Rakatan species had 10 billion. Their warrior caste was much smaller. Deal with it.



Also, no, a master of telekinesis with raw power on the level of Yoda can bring a ship out of the sky. None of the Zeison Sha are that powerful.


Also, you have no proof that any of them are that good. You assume so. You also assume that they can fly and pull anything down, which is not true. There is no proof they can. They have never been shown to do so, so they can't. Plain and simple.

Originally posted by Pwned
No, it said the Rakatan species had 10 billion. Their warrior caste was much smaller. Deal with it.



Also, no, a master of telekinesis with raw power on the level of Yoda can bring a ship out of the sky. None of the Zeison Sha are that powerful.


Also, you have no proof that any of them are that good. You assume so. You also assume that they can fly and pull anything down, which is not true. There is no proof they can. They have never been shown to do so, so they can't. Plain and simple. No Read all of the Rakata article on wookieepedia, it specifically said "The Rakatan Infinite Empire consisted of 10,000,000,000 Warriors and 1,000,000,000,000 Slaves"

How do you think 10,000,000,000 Rakatan Warriors managed 1,000,000,000,000 slaves before they had the star forge?

Simple they were all Force masters. It specifically said "The Rakatan Warriors discovered and Mastered the Force"


Now you are contradicting Wookieepedia and the Hero's guide.

The Hero's guide verified Zeison Sha Warriors could ascend into the sky by using their telekinetic ability "Force Flight"

Khem Val verified a Master of Telekinesis can pull down ships.

Bodo Baas verified that Zeison Sha are masters of the telekinetic powers (which includes telekinesis)

You're just in denial that the Zeison Sha Warriors have Yoda's telekinetic mastery as a common feat.

Are you serious?

He's dead serious.

Through superior weaponry (including starships, which the slaves wouldn't have!), using slaves to keep other slaves in line, and a dozen other methods that slave using societies usually use to control large populations.

The slaves only outnumbered the Rakatan 100:1.

The Spartans had a few thousand warriors, and hundreds of thousands of oppressed slaves, and they managed it with spears and fear, let alone spaceships.

Also, ten billion is just the number of total Rakatan, not warriors.



I have the book, you can't just make stuff up that it doesn't say.




Nope, Khem Val said that a specific individual was capable of it, one with tremendous force power in addition to mastery.

We know a few others like Galen Marek can do it too, but that doesn't mean any TK master can.

Many Jedi are masters of TK. By that logic, many Jedi can do the same.




We deny it, but that's not the same sense as being 'in denial' in the common sense. We simply deny it because the evidence doesn't indicate that it's true.


Here's the thing, if you say something, and it goes beyond the stated text, then it's just your word.

The only thing needed to counter your word is anyone's word.

If it's a "one person's word vs other people's word," the only way that the one person can win is with solid facts and sources, not assumptions that go beyond them.

This line is just, wowzers.

Originally posted by Q99
Through superior weaponry (including starships, which the slaves wouldn't have!), using slaves to keep other slaves in line, and a dozen other methods that slave using societies usually use to control large populations.

The slaves only outnumbered the Rakatan 100:1.

The Spartans had a few thousand warriors, and hundreds of thousands of oppressed slaves, and they managed it with spears and fear, let alone spaceships.

Also, ten billion is just the number of total Rakatan, not warriors.



I have the book, you can't just make stuff up that it doesn't say.




Nope, Khem Val said that a specific individual was capable of it, one with tremendous force power in addition to mastery.

We know a few others like Galen Marek can do it too, but that doesn't mean any TK master can.

Many Jedi are masters of TK. By that logic, many Jedi can do the same.




We deny it, but that's not the same sense as being 'in denial' in the common sense. We simply deny it because the evidence doesn't indicate that it's true.


Here's the thing, if you say something, and it goes beyond the stated text, then it's just your word.

The only thing needed to counter your word is anyone's word.

If it's a "one person's word vs other people's word," the only way that the one person can win is with solid facts and sources, not assumptions that go beyond them. No it was abundantly clear that the reason the 10,000,000,000 Rakatan warriors managed 1,000,000,000,000 slaves before the creation of the Star Forge, was due to their connection to the Force, once that connection began to dissipate on the Rakatan Warriors. The slaves saw the rakatan's force erosion and took initiative, starting violent slave outbreaks that Rakatan warriors could not suppress, due to their failing connection.

No Khem Val specifically quoted on Star Wars The Old Republic, that " My Lord was a Master of Telekinesis"

Khem Val verified the requirement of what needs to be achieved in order to Pull down ships. (A master of telekinesis is the requirement to pull down ships)

Every single Zeison Sha Warrior has already reached that requirement, since they all are natural born masters of Telekinesis.

There weren't many Jedi capable of pulling down ships. Heck Yoda is the only example of a Jedi pulling up and pulling down a semi sized ship with minimal effort. If you have evidence of "these many Jedi that are capable of it," Link at least 13 Jedi capable of this feat. If you can't S.T.F.U

Why do you keep saying "I have all the books" I have all the books too J A C K A S S .

Originally posted by Q99




I have the book, you can't just make stuff up that it doesn't say.



















. I know you didn't just lie about what's in the Hero's guide? The Zeison Sha Warrior had the telekinetic force power known as "Force Flight"

This proved it http://force.wikidot.com/zeison-sha-warrior-class

Looks like everything you're about to say next in your defense is utter horseshit.

*facepalm*



Logic, they fell because they couldn't use their force-based technology. The slaves had no frikkin clue they were losing their connection. Because their connection wasn't universal.


Seriously, that quote you are so fond of? Because only Force-sensitives could be warriors. And the entire race was not a bunch of warriors.

Originally posted by Pwned
*facepalm*



Logic, they fell because they couldn't use their force-based technology. The slaves had no frikkin clue they were losing their connection. Because their connection wasn't universal.


Seriously, that quote you are so fond of? Because only Force-sensitives could be warriors. And the entire race was not a bunch of warriors. Ok here's where wookieepedia trashes what you say, "There weren't ten billion rakatan warriors"

The Infinite Empire

"I am Rakata - it is the name of my people. Eons ago, our Infinite Empire ruled this world and so many others."
―The Imprisoned One

Being a war-like and cruel race, the greater dangers posed by the Rakata was the fact that they were strong in the Force along with being technologically advanced. They were known to enslave or wipe out every civilization they encountered. They were also known to have had been both cruel and manipulative masters of those they enslaved. At its height, the Empire governed 500 worlds and its population numbered ten billion Rakatan warriors and one trillion slaves.

10,000,000,000 Rakatan Warriors and 1,000,000,000,000 slaves.

The Rakatan Warriors failing Force Sensitivity not only stopped them from using their Force Powered Technology, but also causing them the inability to suppress the massive number of violent slave outbreaks.

(The Slaves saw Weakness in the Rakatan Warriors, and took initiative)

"The Rakatan Infinite Empire not only discovered the Force, but mastered it as well"

Wookieepedia just shot down every thing you said, and supported everything i said.

Nothing more needs to be said .

It actually didn't.


The point about 10 billion warriors? I didn't contend that in that post, you just want to act like you know something.

All of them could not have been, as you put it, "Force Masters" due to the fact that not all of them would even be strong enough.


I actually agree with the basis of the thread, you are seriously just spouting shit out to somebody who already said that you had an actual basis for once.

Originally posted by Pwned


I actually agree with the basis of the thread, you are seriously just spouting shit out to somebody who already said that you had an actual basis for once.


Yea, this one's extra sad because you and I both went, "You know, yea, they are very powerful. They're definitely top contenders."


And then he went, "But you must believe every assumption I make about them! Wookieepedia says they have 10 billion people total? I'm going to assume they're all warriors, and all at top mastery levels!"

And then everyone else facepalms.


Even if someone did agree with him on those points, he'd probably just make up new ones anyway.

I wish KMC had a +1 system, upvotes, whatever. You would totally get one there.


Instead, have a banana.

Originally posted by Pwned
It actually didn't.


The point about 10 billion warriors? I didn't contend that in that post, you just want to act like you know something.

All of them could not have been, as you put it, "Force Masters" due to the fact that not all of them would even be strong enough.


I actually agree with the basis of the thread, you are seriously just spouting shit out to somebody who already said that you had an actual basis for once. You were disagreeing with the fact that there were 10,000,000,000 Rakatan Warriors, you said "The Rakatan had ten billion as a species, the warriors cast was much smaller"

Looks like Wookieepedia trashed what you said, and now you're trying to say you never said such things xD.

It was said "The Rakatan Infinite Empire discovered and mastered the Force"the Rakatan Infinite Empire consisted of 10,000,000,000 Rakatan Warriors, so they were all Force Masters. But some mutation/plague infected the Rakatan's Force Sensitivity, and caused most of the Rakatan Warriors to die, while the rest of The Rakatan Warriors that survived, began to suffer from a failing Force Connection.

The Rakatan Infinite Empire consisted of 10,000,000,000 Powerful Rakatan Force Master Warriors. And 1,000,000,000,000 Slaves .

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, this one's extra sad because you and I both went, "You know, yea, they are very powerful. They're definitely top contenders."


And then he went, "But you must believe every assumption I make about them! Wookieepedia says they have 10 billion people total? I'm going to assume they're all warriors, and all at top mastery levels!"

And then everyone else facepalms.


Even if someone did agree with him on those points, he'd probably just make up new ones anyway. There is no assumption about anything i say Star Wars related.

You love talking about me while i'm not around don't ya?

Condescending ***** ** ****

Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
You were disagreeing with the fact that there were 10,000,000,000 Rakatan Warriors, you said "The Rakatan had ten billion as a species, the warriors cast was much smaller"

Looks like Wookieepedia trashed what you said, and now you're trying to say you never said such things xD.

It was said "The Rakatan Infinite Empire discovered and mastered the Force"the Rakatan Infinite Empire consisted of 10,000,000,000 Rakatan Warriors, so they were all Force Masters. But some mutation/plague infected the Rakatan's Force Sensitivity, and caused most of the Rakatan Warriors to die, while the rest of The Rakatan Warriors that survived, began to suffer from a failing Force Connection.

The Rakatan Infinite Empire consisted of 10,000,000,000 Powerful Rakatan Force Master Warriors. And 1,000,000,000,000 Slaves . Read the post. I said I didn't contend it earlier in that post. I admit I did erroneously contend it earlier.


I honestly have no argument at all, there isn't even a debate. We halfway agreed with you. For once.

Ah yea, it is ten mil warriors. Alright, I admit I was wrong on that too.

Most are going to be fairly low-level, but that's still a powerful force.