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hi guys who would you use as the top 5 abstracts to win on either side

So....DC Endless vs Marvel's Abstracts?

would the endless be top 5? what about overmonitor/presence, GEB, source, etc?

Synnar? The source? Wally god boy?

Marvel in a horrific stomp.

LT is an abstract, just saying

Someone should list the top for each company. Pym?

Marvel's are Death, Eternity, Oblivion, Infinity, and LT

Eon, Love, Hate, Chaos, & Order are also close...

Dc's are probably Death, Dream & Destiny
And you can choose any other 2 among Desire, Destruction, Despair, Delirium,

DC has their own versions of Love, Hate, Chaos and Order.

They aren't endless siblings though

I know, I was just saying. I don't think the Endless are the most powerful. What about Lucifer? Synnar? The Source?

I don't think Source, Toaa or God count

Angels aren't abstracts

I think Synnar is closer to Korvac

Originally posted by pym-ftw
I don't think Source, Toaa or God count

Angels aren't abstracts

I think Synnar is closer to Korvac
LOLWUT?

Originally posted by abhilegend
LOLWUT? What don't you understand about his post ?

Originally posted by pym-ftw
I think Synnar is closer to Korvac
GTFO of this thread.

Synnar before his fall >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>99.999999999999% of Marvel.

Synnar, as far as I know, was never said to be the embodiment of any concept or anything of the sort, and so shouldn't be considered an abstract even at his peak.

The Source? Also not sure what concept it embodies.

Ditto with any god-like characters (e.g Wally, Elaine, etc.), and most nigh-omnipotents (e.g. Imps)

Here's my list of the top of my head:

Lucifer: Embodiment of God's infinite will
Michael: Embodiment of God's infinite power
Spectre w/ Logoz: Embodiment of God's wrath
+ 2 Endless (Death? Dream? Destruction? Probably not Destiny, he doesn't really do anything)

For Marvel I'm using
LT
Protege
Scathan
HOTU
If in Marvel 616, the IG

^^ ...

Aside from the LT ... the others aren't abstracts good friend.

Protege is not human, but humanoid.
Scathan is an energy encased entity.
HOTI is "God's in-universe" power source. (sort of abstract but not exactly)
The Gems are physical objects, making the IG an artifact.

----------------------------------------------------


The most powerful Marvel abstracts are supposed to be:

The Living Tribunal
The BeyonderS
Abraxas
Eternity/Infinity/Death/Oblivion/Entropy
Lord Chaos/Master Order

----------------------------


The funny thing is, that topping them all ... (even the LT)
are Two Concepts that are literally in cahoots with TOAA.

Eulogy and Expediency ... of the Seven Friendless,
which are part of Eternity/Infinity's family.

These Two Concepts use 4th wall power to do their thing. (OAA style)

Anyway, if this includes these Two legitimate canon Marvel abstracts,
I don't know who can counter them, aside from the Morrison avatar and such.

The "Seven Friendless" sound an awful lot like a bunch of Endless ripoffs. Tell me something, were these characters created by Neil Gaiman during his stint with Marvel? Or are they from the Genis-Vell/Entropy storyline?

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Tell me something, were these characters created by Neil Gaiman
during his stint with Marvel?
Or are they from the Genis-Vell/Entropy storyline?
Peter David ... Entropy storyline.

I also just read at Marvunapp that he did indeed purposely symbolize
himself in the comic via Eulogy and Expediency in accordance with
events happening in his real life.

I got the whole 4th wall scent on my own from the book,
but didn't know it was so directly linked to the writer.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ ...

Aside from the LT ... the others aren't abstracts good friend.

Protege is not human, but humanoid.
Scathan is an energy encased entity.
HOTI is "God's in-universe" power source. (sort of abstract but not exactly)
The Gems are physical objects, making the IG an artifact.

----------------------------------------------------


The most powerful Marvel abstracts are supposed to be:

The Living Tribunal
The BeyonderS
Abraxas
Eternity/Infinity/Death/Oblivion/Entropy
Lord Chaos/Master Order


Cool beans.
Being that the DC side is stacked with options, I was trying to select the most powerful forces but not necessarily abstracts per se.

Can't believe I forgot about Beyonder though.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The funny thing is, that topping them all ... (even the LT)
are Two Concepts that are literally in cahoots with TOAA.

Eulogy and Expediency ... of the Seven Friendless,
which are part of Eternity/Infinity's family.

These Two Concepts use 4th wall power to do their thing. (OAA style)

Do you have scans? Nobody ever talks about those two (7?)

The most powerful Marvel abstracts are supposed to be:

The Living Tribunal
The BeyonderS
Abraxas
Eternity/Infinity/Death/Oblivion/Entropy
Lord Chaos/Master Order

I would add IMO, The Makers, The Infinities, Galactus, Inbetweener, Eon

The Infinites can be squeezed into a top 5 (forgot about them)
I wouldn't say the rest, especially not big G, Eon and IB.

Originally posted by Cogito

Do you have scans? Nobody ever talks about those two (7?)
Since they operate on 4th Wall levels I never intended to use them
as part of Marvel's Cosmic arsenal,
but they are canon and this is the make-up of their characters so ...
it is what it is ...
and that is ... Eulogy & Expediency = TOAA
(Eulogy would be the writer, and Expediency would be the artist, or a mixture of both)

That's what I got from the story,
I later learned Marvunapp agrees with my notion.

Anyway ...


First Eulogy pops up disguised as a geeky comic book store owner,
funny how Captain Marvel was an issue there.

He's there to shut down the Captain Marvel Reality (comic book run)

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15522907_C1.jpg

------------------------------------


Rick Jones,
who I never knew had 4th Wall powers (well, awareness to be exact)
realizes what Eulogy's purpose is, and well ... enjoy.

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15522913_C2.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15522920_C3.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15522927_C4.jpg

------------------------------------


Here, Eulogy looks directly at us (the artist actually) and tells em
to basically do away with the Reality around them ...
... 4th Wall style baby!

The Cosmos gets stripped away like wall paper:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15522935_C5.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15522942_C6.jpg


Here, Rick demands a happy ending to his life:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15522948_C7.jpg


Expediency obliges Rick, via dramatic in yur face 4th Wall style:


http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15522953_C8.jpg


continues below ....

^^ ... more ...


Mighty Insane Genis is humbled by Eulogy:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15522957_C9.jpg

"I didn't decide they're over."

"You decide? Oh, no No.
Your wants & desires mean nothing, I'm afraid"


http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15522962_C10.jpg

------------------------------------


Here,
even Eulogy's clean up crew, has authority/power over Genis.
One of them takes Genis' uniform and replaces it with a jump suit
without Genis even realizing it.

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15522967_C11.jpg


Anyway, the ending ... which is art imitating life in a way. (writer's life at-least)

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15522970_C12.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15522972_C13.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15522975_C14.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15522977_C15.jpg

I'll post the DC hierarchy again, but it's only half way complete according to the poster who started it and doesn't include concepts like Primal Monitor.

1) Beings/Forces who are beyond any creation (Beings that even Hypertime does apply to them)
The Presence/The Overseers

The Source/Carnivore with Presence's power/Gyges and Garamas/Ultimate Light/Ultimate Darkness (Ultimate Darkness and Ultimate Light are the balance of the Presence)/The Voice/The Unnameable One

The Decreator/Lucifer Morningstar/Archangel Michael/Elaine with Michael's power and Demiurgic Energy/The Adjudicator/Spectre/Eclipso (Wrath of God)

Archangel Gabriel, Uriel, Raphael, Michael (Chaos Bringer), Saraquel, Raguel

2) Hypertime abstract Beings/Forces (beings that could affect the whole Hypertimeline)
Hyperman (God of Hypertime Jonathan Kent)

World's Funnest Mr. Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite (May not be the Central Hypertimeline or 'in-continuity' Mxyzptlk or Bat-Mite but still existed from a different hypertimeline)

3) Multiversal abstract beings/forces (beings that could affect the Multiverse)
Una, the Worm of Heaven and Hell/Ea/Mallo Keeper of the Cosmic Balance/The Sword of Destiny/The Word/The Void/Demiurgic Energy/The Witching Hour /Anti-Monitor (full version)/Entropy or Krona at full potential/The Great Light (no relations to the Ultimate Darkness or Ultimate Light)/The Darkness (could be the Anti-Monitor's shadow servants merged as one. But that's debatable)/Godwave/The Ultimator or 10th dimensional beings/The Abyss

4) Universal abstract beings/fundamental forces who embody a universe (Beings that could affect a single universe)
Kismet or Eternity (same being , but the name Pre-Crisis Superwoman called her universe in Superman Family Arc)/Death/Infinity (The Timestream)/Oblivion (Nothingness)/Angor/Entropy (End of Time after everything dies)/Maltusian Gods/The Moraiei/Three Witches/Other forms the Witching Hour manifest itself throughout the universe/Destiny/Dream I/Dream II/Darksome/Yk'Kphat/the Antechamber of Souls/The Great Tree/The Abyss (Pre-Boot Dial H For Hero Villain)/5th dimensional imp king or queen (Queen Gzntplzk or King Brpxz)/Omega Attractor/Epoch with Omega Attractor/The Oracle Entity/Maaldor/Ningal/The Aleph/Order/Chaos/Willow and her husband as one (one with the universe)/OA/Quantum Field/Speed Force/Parallax Entity/Azarath/Astro-Force/Omega Effect/Alpha Energy/Zero Hour Parallax (full power)/Ion/Sunbust energy/The Shadowlands/Joker with Maaldor Power/Mr. Mxyzptlk/Bat-Mite/Lkz/Ykz/The Mxy Twins (Mxyzptlk split into 2)/A typical 5th dimensional imp (Zrffians, Thunderbolts, and Mite-Imps) (average showing)/Emperor Joker/Cosmic Lotus/Nebula Man

The Concentrator/The Primal Atom/The Sun-Stone/Genesis Box/Warlogog/Warlogog wielder/Damage (Big Bang)/Anti-Matter Cannon/The Master Blaster

5) Abstract Concepts/physical body and manifestations of the Presence
Destruction/The Decay ancient force/Anomaly (also known as Fires of Creation itself)/Desire/Despair/Dellirium/The Union/Dark Lords of the Ultra-Realm (War, Chaos, Madness, Hate, Death, Greed and Rage), Light Lords of the Ultra-Realm (Peace, Grace, Enlightenment, Love, Order, Life and Bliss)/Rama Kushna/Meshta/Wally the God Boy/Godhead

6) Physical body and manifestations of abstract concepts
Black Racer/Black Flash/Nekron I/The Ecrus/Anti-Life Entity/Anyone wielding the ALE/Eon (full power)/Decay II/Tiamat

7) Godlike Metahumans/1st class Metaphysicals, Semi-Abstract, God-Like beings, race, Demons, Angels/Metaphysicals that could affect the universe
Hamilton Benedict/Gemini Entity/Alexander Luthor/Gemworld Dimension (currently Amethyst's spirit)/Jonathan Kent/Progenitor (Element Lad reaching his full potential and becoming God of a galaxy)/Progenitor and Omnipagues (merged as one being)/

The Promethian Giants/The Quantum Mechanics/The Anti-Matter Man (Pre-Boot)

Ramiel/Duma/Sandalphon/Archangel Amendaniel/Lord of Order (Shatru, St'ann, Terataya, Ynar, J'akk, Nabu the Wise, Patagones, Amethyst)/Lord of Chaos (Child, Gorrum, Hytuurnus, m'Shulla, Shivering Jemmy, The Weaver, T'Charr,The Shallow Brigade and the Laughing Dancers,The five original Lords of Chaos,Typhon, Vandaemon, Zanadu)/The Unity/Shattered God/SHAZAM's Elder Gods (Marzosh, Arel, Ribalvei, Voldar, Elbiam, Lumium)/S'ivaa The Destroyer/The Shadow Elements race/The Three Demons - Rath, Ghast, Abnegazar/Clockwerx/Trigon (in his dimension)/Krona/Bedlam/Dominus/Jakeem Thunder/Johnny Thunder/30th Century or present Mordru/The Great Darkness Saga Darkseid/Doctor Manhattan/Satan/Spear of Destiny/Azmodus (like the Spectre varies)/Shaitan/Shathan/Ultimate Man (fully evolved)/Ganthet possessed by Parallax/Superman Prime/Wonder Woman channeling the Godwave/Starbreaker/Yuga Khan/Imperiex/Brainiac 13/Fenris the Devourer/Omniphagues/Overmaster/Epoch/Vyronis/Preacherverse God/King of Tears/The Devil/Corinthian/The First of the Fallen/Saint of Killer/Angel of Death/Time Trapper I (Rokk Krinn)/Time Trapper II (Lori Morning?)/Glorith/Infinite Man/Timeless Ones/The Time Beast/Kulak/Eclipso (depowered and became Heart of Darkness)/Abraxis/Dr. Destiny/The Agents/Dark Angel/Zatanna and Adam (Godhead)/Agent If and the Realtor/The Carnivore (pre-God)/Cykroth/The Evil One/Maggedon/Alien Ator of the Timeless Place/Primordial Old Gods of Chaos/The Lords of Light/Nether-World Gods/Satan (Phantom Stranger issue pre-boot)/Willie Wisher/Father Time/Captain Skull/Cocoon of the Undying Ones

8) 1st Class Metahumans, supernatural, and aliens/2nd class Metaphysicals,Semi-Abstract, and God-Like beings/race/Demons/Angels
The Unimaginable/Unimaginable's race/Candlemaker/Egregores/TDHD MadGod of Sector 3600/Millinneum Giants/Cosmic Gamblers/OWner of the Earth/The A/Rift/Neron/The Second of the Fallen/The Third of the Fallen/The Endless One/Old Gods- Arzaz, Baaldur, Lokee, The Nameless One, Sirius, Wotan/A typical 5th dimensional imp (varies) (low showings)/The I/Luck Lords/X'Hal/Agamemno/The Aurakles/The One/The Fiend with Five Faces/Erishad's baby/Outer Gods (Shub-Niggurath, Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, Nyarlathotep)/Elder Gods and the Old Ones (Cthulhu,M'Nagalah, k'zum'uggarth, Daemoniacus, Kolkothak, Koth-Shugoth, The Undying Ones and the N'Garai)/Netherworld Creatures/Andromeda and M'onel given powers by the Anomaly/The ID/The Miracle Machine/Parallax (Post Zero Hour)/Jericho (vessel of Azarath)/Zauriel (angel form)/Asmodel/Pax Dei host/Thrones/Saraphim/other angel host that Gabriel or Sandalphon are in charge of/Earth-Born Angels- Supergirl (angelic powers), Comet, and Blithe (if they actually use their powers), Twilight with Supergirl's Earth Born Angel Power (still has it I believe)/Jesse Custer/Genesis/The Light Entity/Leviathan (Phantom Stranger pre-boot)/Asmodeus/Oblivion II/Secret (full potential)

Sun Eater/Mr. Nebula/Cannibal Planet/Aquarius/Other Living Stars/Council of the Living Stars/Solaris/Morbiac the Zombie Star/The Vampire Sun/Mogo/Empire of Tears/Wonderworld inhabitors- Adam One, The Mote, and other Wonderworlders/Manhunter of Mars/Parliaments of Planets/Earth Elemental Swamp Thing/The Ancient Ones/Maya/Gaea

Monitor/Anti-Monitor (before he absorbed the multiverse)/Scarabus

9) Skyfather levels
Highfather Izaya/Darkseid/Takion/Stayne/a typical Guardians of the Univese/Ganthet/Phantom Stranger/Zeus/Odin or any skyfathers/SHAZAM wizard/The Controllers/The Zamarons/Guardians Council/Qwardians (creator of the Anti-Green Lantern Corps)/Ares/Harmonia/Deimos/Eris/Phobos/Thunderhead/Helia/Odin/Osiris/Mother Herrae and other Primitives/Osirect/Anubis/Hades/Cronus/Harrier/Disdain/Titan/Slaughter/Arch/Oblivion/other skyfathers and death gods/Superman 1 million/Superman Dynasty/Koth/The Seven/Wonder Woman (Goddess)/Animal Avatars Gods (Hawkgod, Snakegods, Beargods, Bullgods, etc.)/Rao and other Kryptonian gods/Gog/Evil Avatar Raven/Trigon's Daughter Raven/Lord Satanis/Trigon (on Earth)/Infernal One/The Redeemer/Mister Miracle (ruling New Genesis)/Stone Giant's race/Parliament of Flames/Parliament of Stones/Parliament of Waves/Parliament of Trees/Parliament of Vibes/Blaze/Lord Satanus/The Three Faces of Evil- Terror, Sin, and Wickedness/Validus (Pre-Boot)/The Powerstone or anyone wielding the Powerstone/Metron/Red Jack/Rhea Jones (reaching her full potential before killing Red Jack)/Shadowy Mr. Evans/Saint of Killer/Dark Gods/Lois Lane (Goddess of Integrity)/Dreamslayer/Spirit King/Ultimate Man/X'ult/Evolvo harnessing the space and time Anomaly/Willow/Willow's chils/Snapper Carr (genetic potential)/Human race (genetic potential)/Jesse Custer/Genesis/The Ancient Ones/Xenon/Disciple/H'ronmeer/C'eridyall/The Four Horsemen of Apocalypse - Death, War, Faminine, and Plague (manifestations of The Adjudator's will)

10) Time-travelers/2nd class metahumans, supernatural, and aliens
Extant/Waverider and Linear Man/Hourman III (without the worlogog)/Gabriel Walker/Doomsday with GL Ring/Decay III/Brimstone/The Annihilator/Eon (depowered)/Godfrey Gaius (true form)/Black Zero/Gayle Marsh (Psi)/Lex Luthor (portion of Darkseid's power)/Penguin (portion of Darkseid's power)/Joker (portion of Darkseid's power)/Brainiac (potion of Darkseid's power)/Agogg/Pre-Crisis Superman/Pre-Crisis Supergirl/Pre-Crisis Kryptonians/Pre-Crisis Daxamites/Mon-El/Pre-Crisis Superboy/Pre-Crisis Wonderwoman/Pre-Crisis Andromeda/Bloodthirst (could be higher, not much is known about him except that he could change his appearance and he beat the crap out of Superman)/Monarch/Dev-Em/OWAW Doomsday/Doomsday War Doomsday/Goldstar/Triumph given powers by Lkz/Pre-Crisis Maxima/OWAW Superman (merged with Strange Visitor)/Pre-Crisis Ultraboy/Superwoman (Kristen Wells)/Hunter and Prey Doomsday/Element Lad/Element Man/Starfinger/Star Boy/Kid Quantum II/Kid Pyscho/Graviton Man/Gravity Lord (both could be higher)/Superboy Robot (pre-crisis)/Atmos/Brother Blood/Dr. Light (full potential, enraged, and very crazy)/Dr. Light II/Superboy of the 843rd Century/Superboy 1 million

11) Herald-Class Level/3rd class angels, metahuman, supernautrals, and demons/Hulk-Level
Helspont/Lord Defile/Saviour/Regis and Blue Aliens/Preacherverse Devil/Dark Lantern/Dark Flash/Fernus/Burning Martians/Vartox/Amazo/The OMAC Androids/BION/Composite Superman/Garok/Dr. Fate/Dr. Fate II/Dr. Fate III/Dr. Fate IV/Tim Hunter/Tim Hunter II (Tim Hunter's evil counterpart from another universe)/Anti-Fate (high portrayal in the Fates and TM)/Kestrel I/Krestrel II/Composite Man/Deadman (varies)/Green Lantern Priest/Creator-2/Zatanna/Jennifer Morgan/Janissary with Book of Eternity/Despero/Zoom 2/Shaggy Man/The General/The Elementals (Swamp Thing, Red Tornado, Firestorm, Naiad)/Orion (highest showing)/Brainiac 2.5/Doomsday Rex/Sun-dipped Superman

Martian Manhunter/Malefic/Hyperclan- A-Mortal, Armek, Fluxus, Primad, Protex, Tronix, Zenturion and Zum/Green, Pale, Red and White Martians (at their best)/Alan Scott/Kyle Rayner/Raker/Hal Jordan/Kilowog/John Stewart/Guy Gardner/typical Green Lantern (highest showing)/Wally West (highest showing or using Speed Force)/Sinestro/Effigy/Nero/Major Force/Captain Atom (highest showing)/Firestorm I and Firestorm II (highest showing)/Celeste Rockfish/Cobalt Blue/Kilg%re/Obsidian/Dr. Polaris

Superman/Mr. Majestic (could be ranked higher)/M'onel/The Martians (average to high)/Kryptonians/Daxamites/Andromeda/Captain Marvel/Lightray/Black Adam/Eradicator/Martian Mahunter/Alan Scott/Kyle Rayner/Raker/Hal Jordan/Kilowog/John Stewart/Guy Gardner/typical Green Lantern (average)/Ultraman/Orion (average showing)/Captain Atom (average showing)/Doomsday/Firestorm I/Firestorm II (average to high)/Breach/Max Faraday/The Void/Providence/Manchester Black/Power Ring/Massacre/High-Tech/Anti-Green Lanterns/Malefic/Green Martians/Rhea Jones/Preus/Cyborg Superman/Mongul/Zatanna (average showing)/Auron/Radiant/Despero/Thor/Captain Comet/Starboy/Starman I/Starman II/Starman III/Starman IV/Starman V/Starman VI/Starman VII/Starman VIII/Starman 1,000,000/Lord Malvolio/Jade/Evil Star/General Zod/Ignition/Kancer/Warrior/Lex Luthor (Armor)/Manchester Black/Triumph/Strata/The Crusade/The Union/Golgoth/Superman Robots/Superman Androids/Brainiac/Pulsar Stargrave/Ultivac/Manhunters/Darkstars/Arion/Dr. Occult/Echantress/Steel (Aegis Entropy Armor)/Ultraboy/Warlord of Ys/Anti-Matter Man/Antithesis/Brainwave II/Ferro Lad/Cosmic Boy (pre-Crisis)/Gaius (in coma)/Lobo/Etrigan

Wonder Woman/Circe/Maxima (high showing)/Samaritan/Apollo/Icon/The Martians (low showings)/the Green Lanterns (average to low showings)/Captain Atom (average to low showings)/Maul/Solomon Grundy/Uncle Sam/Death Rite (Draaga)/Hercules/Mantis/Ultra Boy/Captain Marvel Jr./Mary Marvel (high showing on the Marvel sidekicks)/Geoforce (high showing)/Faora/Arclight/Son of Vulcan/Bizarro/Thor/Wanjina/Red Tornado/
Body Defenses of the Owner of the Earth/Kalibak/Grayven/Superwoman/Zealot/Validus (Post Zero-Hour)/Steve Dayton/Solaar/The Olympian/Ferro/Cosmic Boy (post-Crisis)/Scanner/White Drawf/Drone/4D/The Key/Imperiex Probes/Heralds of the Owner of the Earth/Terraformer of the Owner of the Earth /Jenny Quantum

Adam Strange/Animal Avatars (Hawkman,Hawkwoman,Lord Viper, avatars of Bears, Barracudas, Snakes, etc.)

12) Lower Class metahumans
Powergirl (high showing)/Hippolyta/Barda/OMAC (Buddle Blank)/Mary Marvel and Captain Marvel Jr. (standard)/Maxima/Fury II/Loose Cannon/Blockbuster I/Blockbuster II/Touch 'n Go/Jack-o-Lantern

Flash II (high showing)/Flash III(post terminal velocity)

Power Girl (standard to low showings)/Mary Marvel/Cap Marvel Junior (standard to low showing on the Marvel)/Donna Troy/Artemis & Hyppolita (highest showings)/Superboy (high showings)/Aquaman (with full on TP and magic hand)

Flash I/Flash II (standard)/Flash III (pre terminal velocity)/Dr. Zoom/Impulse/Johnny Quick/Captain Speed/Kid Flash (former Impulse)/Reverse Flash/Savitar/Speed Demon/Max Mercury/Johnny Quick/Red and Blue Trinity/Christina Alexandrova/Jesse Quick/Barry West/Kid Flash 2/Impulse/23rd Century Flash/Sela Allen/John Fox/speed Metal/Blaine Allen/Jace Allen/Tornado Twins/Hyperguard/Inertia/XS/Flash Kryad/JOhn Fox/Impulse II/Superboy (standard)/Wonder Girl/Aquaman (hook/mechanical hand + full on TP)/Steel/Natasha Irons/Metamorpho/Starman(low showing)/Thunder/Grace/Kid Impala

Atom Smasher/Colossal Boy/Hourman I and II/Geoforce (standard)/Black Lightning/Static/Black Lightning/Jenny Sparks/Vera Black/Behemoth/Scirocco/Prometheus (Hybrid)/Pulse-8/666

Sand/Clayface/Alloy

Aquaman (not full on TP)/Jay Garrick (standard)/Rival/Stargirl/Hawkman/Hawkgirl/Hawkwoman (standard)/Plastic Man

Wally West (Return of Barry Allen)

Silver Age Aquaman/Atom I/Atom II/Apparition/Aqualad/Aquagirl/Aruna/Gorgon/Harpi/Pteradon/Black Nebula/Elongated Man/Flow/Tasmanian Devil

14) 1st clas humans
Overbat (Mitefall)/Croc/Batman's Dark Knight Armor/Vixen/Ragman

I've never cared for that list. It makes a lot of assumptions, and contradicts on-panel evidence a lot.

^
Still stacked. Especially those first 4 tiers.

Is this Abstracts vs Abstracts or top 5 vs top 5?

Originally posted by Sundipped
^
Still stacked. Especially those first 4 tiers.

Some of it is generally ok, but Hyperman in tier 2 with WF Mxy? The guy literally has no feats.

The Spectre/Eclipso above that? Nope. Other featless angels in tier 1?

And that's just some of the problems with the first two tiers.

Originally posted by Golgo13
I'll post the DC hierarchy again, but it's only half way complete according to the poster who started it and doesn't include concepts like Primal Monitor.

1) Beings/Forces who are beyond any creation (Beings that even Hypertime does apply to them)
The Presence/The Overseers


Who started the list? Link me please?

Starting point (Tier Zero): DC equivalent to TOAA is are called The External Forces.

Originally posted by "Id"
Who started the list? Link me please?

Starting point (Tier Zero): DC equivalent to TOAA is are called The External Forces.

It was started on a message board that is no longer around. The name escapes me, but a poster named Elrahprime started it. He has been on Herochat at one point. The list got started because a Marvel poster was saying that Marvel had way more abstracts/cosmic types than DC, so Elrahprime started the DC hierarchy to prove him wrong.

IIRC, DC's list had a little bit more meat on it, but was around the same.

BTW, what are the "External Forces"?

The Kolective should be somewhere. So far they have wiped out timelines and the original Stormwatch.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/SW_zps987eeded.jpg

Originally posted by Golgo13
BTW, what are the "External Forces"?
The entities Yahweh told Lucifer about having created him.

Ah, I remember. Those were just the actual writers, right?

Originally posted by Golgo13
Ah, I remember. Those were just the actual writers, right?

That the main theory. External Forces = Writers.

Originally posted by "Id"
That the main theory. External Forces = Writers.

It's not really a theory. It was pretty plainly obvious

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Marvel's are Death, Eternity, Oblivion, Infinity, and LT

Eon, Love, Hate, Chaos, & Order are also close...

Dc's are probably Death, Dream & Destiny
And you can choose any other 2 among Desire, Destruction, Despair, Delirium,

I wouldn't consider the endless to be the most powerful in DC. I can understand excluding omnipotent beings on both sides, but there are still the likes of Rama Kushna, Infinite man ( embodiment of all the universe basically LT), and many others.

This is a list of some of the cosmic level beings in DCU that i posted a few years ago on another forum. Several of these are above teh Endless and not Omnipotent

Abaddon Fallen angel who once guarded hell helped Etrigan overthrow the first triumverate of hell
Abnegazar one of the deamons three improsned by the timeless ones
Agony hell's tormentors
Alex Luthor energy and dimesional manipulator Multiversal level threat
Amenadiel member of the Host
Amethyst Lord of Order
Amon Ra Lord of Order
Anit-matter man universal threat from the anti matter univers of Quard
Anti-fate antithisis of Dr Fate (Classic)
Anti-life entitiy embodiment of the anti-life equation
Appa Ali Apsa Former Guadian driven mad by linliness. Took the combinedmight of all the Guardians and GL's to beat him
Arion powerful mage who has walked the earth for 5000 yrs plus
Asmodel former member of the host who rebelled and Joined Neron
Asteroth Destroyer of destroyers
Aurakles cosmic entity who reaches through time space and dimensions
Auron X'Hal's bearer of death
Azmodus One of the Spectre's greates foes (amalgam of his former host)
Bast once powerul god who's power is decreasing
Bat-Mite 6 th dimensional imp
Beelzebub one of the triumverate of hell
Belial Father of Etrigan and Merlin
Black Flash Dark aspect of the speed force to breang death to speedsters
Black Racer DC's grim reaper
Blithe Angel of light
Carnivore First Vampire, former member of heaven
Chaon Lord of Chaos
Controllers one of the imortal races of Maltus
Darkseid Nuff said
Death Member of the endless
Decreator Evil entity that cults have tried to summon to unmake everything
Deedra Lord of Order
Deimos immortal wizard of Skartais
Delirium Member of the endless
Desire Member of the endless
Despair Member of the endless
Destiny Member of the endless
Destruction Member of the endless
Djinn 6 th dimensional imp
Dream Member of the endless
Duma Angel of scilence who ruled hell after Lucifer
Eclipso Former wrath of the presence (prior to Spectre)
Ecstacy hell's tormentors
first of fallen Omnipotent revealed to be the presence's own consience given form when he wanted to argue with it
flaw Lord of Chaos
Garamas Titan
Garn Daanuth Arion's evil brother
Gemimn Lord of Order
Ghast one of the demons three improsned by the timeless ones
Gog God of the Third world Cuurently imbedded in the Source wall
Goth demon who corrupts children
Gray Man Servant of order who farms the dreams of mortals- the power souce of the LOO
Great evel beast Omnipotent = to the presence in power. When the wto touch hands they form yin and yang
Guardians immortal keepers of order
Gyges Titan
H'ronmeer Martian God of death
Highfather leader of New genisis his staff is directly linked to the source wall.
Horus Lord of Order
Hourman III Time manipulator
Huitzilopocthli Myan god
Iblis demon destroyer
ID, 6th dimensional Imp
Imperiex Prime Galactus level being
Infinite Man Time manipulator
Ion sentient embdiment of will power
Izanami ancient god of Japan
Jheryl Lord of Order
Kancer
Kid Eternity
Kiderkin Lord of Order
King of Tears lord of the Suptle realms even the Spectre can't kill him
Kismet DC equivilent of Eternity
Koth dimensional threat faced by Doctor Occult
Krona Immortal Mutusian (Guardians, Controller, Zamarons) who released evil on the universe
Kulak Enemy of Spectre (who has defeated Spectre more than once)
Lilith Mother of atrocities
Lkz 5th Dimensional Imp
Lord Satanus Son of Shazam
Lucifer omnipotetent multiple appearances prior to getting his own title
Mageddon Sun/ planet galaxy destroyer. Capable of making all near it feel hate and despair
Malferrazae
Mallo Keeper of the Cocmic Balance, pre-Crisis multiverse being
Mammon one of Hell's wealthiest and most powerful demons
Mantis Second most powerful of Apokolips
Materna Minxx, cosmic nanny of Helen Jordan from The Spectre
Mordru Lord of Chaos
mr Keeper Lord of Chaos
Mr Mxlplk 5th Dimensional Imp
Nabu Lord of Order
Naiads elemental
Nameless One Former ruler of the Arkana realm
Nebiros Supremely powerful in the nether worlds. Took the combined might of all earth's ancient mystics to banish him
Nebula Man Sentient universe
Nekron, Get's the strength and power of all lives he tales
Neron DC = to mephisto
Merlin Brother of Etrigan
Obatala African God- Source of the power of a few Flobal Guardians
Onimar Sin Thanagarian God with control over the four forces
Orpheus I Son of Dream and Calliope
Osiris Lord of Chaos
Osiris Lord of Order
Overmaster One of their many Galactus rip offs
Parallax embodiment of pure fear
Parliament of Trees Earth elementals
Phantom Stranger Aspect of the Hope of God/ Presence
Promethean Giants proto beings that have breached the source wall
Quetzalcoatl Aztec God
Ra featured in The Sandman
Raan Va Dath, mother serpent of Etrigan, featured in The Demon
Rama Kushna, death goddess, creator of Deadman, featured in Strange Adventures
rath one of the deamons three improsned by the timeless ones
Remiel, an angel featured in The Sandman and Lucifer
Rott, demon who mind controlled Martian Manhunter into becoming Bloodwynd
S'ivaa the Destroyer Shadow Elemental
Sandalphon fallen angel who sided with Lucifer
Sandman (fifth and sixth) Vertigo's greatest character
Seviram demon in hell
Shazam Lord of Order
Shivering Jemmy Lord of Chaos
sister Sentry Lord of Order
Solaris the Tyrant Sun AI sun took the combined JLA and Justice Legion A to contain
Spectre aspect of the wrath of God/ Presence
Stigmonus Monsieur entity that thrives on despair, enemy of Spectre
Sun-Eater universal therat
Superboy-Prime
T'Charr Lord of Chaos
Takion Avitar of the light side of the source
Telephone Avatar entity that possessed telephone system and enslaved the dead
Terrataya Lord of Chaos
Tezcatlipoca Lord of Chaos
the child Lord of Chaos
The Presence DC's = TOAA
The Seven the group of abstracts that Dr Occult draws his power from
The Word Spectre's older more powerful brother
Thunderbolt I 5th Dimensional Imp
Time Trapper time manipulator universal threat
Totac / Totec Lord of Chaos
Trigon the Terrible lord of evil of another dimension
Typhon Lord of Chaos
Ultimator personification of the 10th dimension (power to make Mxlplk look weak
Vandaemeon Lord of Chaos
Vext patron deity of misfortune
Vulcan elder god
X'Hal Living Goddes of the Okarrans
Yama-No-Kami
YggDrasil the earth Elemental
Ynar Lord of Order
Zamarons one of the imortal races of Maltus
Zor Enemy of Spectre. The first 5 times they faced Spec' needed to ask the presence for greater power to match him