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Growing Gauntlet

SS is bloodlusted and CIS-less and is poised to eliminate and if not possible, to incapacitate all his opponents.

Surfer is replenished to 100% everything after each round. How far does he succeed.


1. Captain Britain
2. Plastic Man
3. Ironman
4. Dr. Light
5. Iceman
6. Magneto
7. Savage Hulk
8. Green Lantern (Hal)
9. Thor
10. Superman

Is everyone else still inhabited by CIS, and are you asking how far he can get through or at which point he stops taking a majority?

Everyone else still CIS and yes, how far in the cumulative gauntlet can he reach that is possibly in favor of him getting the majority.

well 1 thru 3,5,6 I think a CIS-less Surfer would simply transmute for instant kill..
Not sure about 4 Dr. Light
GL should also be a fast kill imo

Savage Hulk would take some time but bfr to the sun should end it
.
Supes (if cis is off) speed would be an initial problem but SS cosmic awareness would reveal his weakness sooooo

Thor would be the hardest to deal with.

Originally posted by Gadabout
Thor would be the hardest to deal with. I'm thinking Superman would be. Thor is 90% hammer-tossing brick with CIS; he's almost as bad as Surfer in 'forgetting' all that he can do. Superman, OTOH, is less hampered by CIS. If anything, he's usually very creative with his powers.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
Everyone else still CIS and yes, how far in the cumulative gauntlet can he reach that is possibly in favor of him getting the majority. Oaky.

Surfer with CIS could arguably take a majority from everyone here. So with CIS off I don't see that changing.

Thor is probably his toughest match up.

Thor has the versatility to compete along with the physical fighting advantage imo.

Originally posted by Newjak
Oaky.

Surfer with CIS could arguably take a majority from everyone here. So with CIS off I don't see that changing.

Thor is probably his toughest match up.

Thor has the versatility to compete along with the physical fighting advantage imo. With CIS on for Thor he's a dead duck pretty fast. Remember he likes to brawl and throw the hammer a lot. Plus he's slow as shit. A CIS off Surfer would smoke Thor in minimal time. Thus Thor is not the toughest match but one of the easiest.

Originally posted by h1a8
With CIS on for Thor he's a dead duck pretty fast. Remember he likes to brawl and throw the hammer a lot. Plus he's slow as shit. A CIS off Surfer would smoke Thor in minimal time. Thus Thor is not the toughest match but one of the easiest. He's one of the slower people here but he is not slow as shit, there is a major difference.

Thor has already shown through quite a few battles to be more than a match for Surfer.

And while yes he doesn't always go with his more exotic powers he isn't an imbecile either about the only time he goes straight H2H without utilizing some of his other powerset is against bricks mainly the Hulk.

Against most other people he will fly, and will use his weather based powers. And in a physical confrontation I would take Thor over Surfer anyways.

if cis is off for surfer in my opinion he mops the floor with everyone except supes which he still beats 7/10 or so he has a majority win over everyone here pretty much with cis on so he wins them all toughest fight is superduder

Yet another "people don't understand what CIS-Off means" thread.

He gets beat by Thor.

Originally posted by Newjak
He's one of the slower people here but he is not slow as shit, there is a major difference.

Thor has already shown through quite a few battles to be more than a match for Surfer.

And while yes he doesn't always go with his more exotic powers he isn't an imbecile either about the only time he goes straight H2H without utilizing some of his other powerset is against bricks mainly the Hulk.

Against most other people he will fly, and will use his weather based powers. And in a physical confrontation I would take Thor over Surfer anyways. Surfer hardly ever uses his speed against Thor. Surfer can board from behind trick Thor for the easy win. Surfer can put Thor in a black hole with ease.

Thor fights like a moron (warrior) the vast majority of the time. He goes for the hammer bash almost unfailingly.

The only way Thor can match Surfer is if Surfer fought like an idiot and not used his speed or other powers.

Bottomline: I don't see how Thor is getting past the board from behind trick (traveling at a million times c)

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
Growing Gauntlet

SS is bloodlusted and CIS-less and is poised to eliminate and if not possible, to incapacitate all his opponents.

Surfer is replenished to 100% everything after each round. How far does he succeed.


1. Captain Britain
2. Plastic Man
3. Ironman
4. Dr. Light
5. Iceman
6. Magneto
7. Savage Hulk
8. Green Lantern (Hal)
9. Thor
10. Superman They all get owned.

I'd say cis off, surfer should beat Thor. We still havent even seen surfer (post upgrade) go all out against Thor.

clears

Originally posted by -Pr-
Yet another "people don't understand what CIS-Off means" thread.

He gets beat by Thor.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Yet another "people don't understand what CIS-Off means" thread.

He gets beat by Thor.

Surfer clears, especially with knowledge of his opponents. His hardest fight is Thor.

Now that I understand that Surfer battle speed isn't much greater than Thor's then Thor could possibly still beat him.

Thor will go wrong with throwing the hammer.
Surfer can temporarily trap it and then assault Thor like crazy.
Blasts will do little damage but will accumulate to enough damage.
Surfer needs to attack with the board to seal the deal.
Blasts alone will not get the job done.


What other attacks, besides blasts and board, does Surfer have at his disposal against Thor?

Cis-less in this particular thread was meant to say that the Surfer goes all out using his powers in hopes of dominating his opponent. While, on the other side, his opponent are holding back or adhering to their usual combative temperament. Again, in this case the Surfer who is known to hold back does the opposite.

Superman ignores anything Surfer dishes out and oneshot kills him.

How does he get past Savage Hulk, when BFR is not an option? Am interested in what his fans have to say. Honest question here as I've seen many arguments that Hulk just 'powers through ' attacks.

People will say that Surfer depowers him by draining him. I think Surfer did this a couple of times before

It's weird when you put it that way, because Superman also has his draining feats (Mageddon, for example). But no Marvel fan would ever dare claim he wins a forum battle by draining Surfer or Hulk, for example.

Correct
But personally I think those instances with Surfer draining Hulk was PIS. Surfer had to touch Hulk in order to do that. In a real battle Hulk is not letting anyone touch him outside a strike. The drain wasn't instant either. Hulk could have swatted Surfer away and gained his energy back.

Surfer doesn't need to drain to win even though it'll work.

Originally posted by h1a8
Correct
But personally I think those instances with Surfer draining Hulk was PIS. Surfer had to touch Hulk in order to do that. In a real battle Hulk is not letting anyone touch him outside a strike. The drain wasn't instant either. Hulk could have swatted Surfer away and gained his energy back.

Huh? The Surfer is Hulk's Kryptonite.

Originally posted by carver9
Surfer doesn't need to drain to win even though it'll work. So in a forum fight Hulk is going to be stupid and allowed Surfer to grab his arm and start draining him?
Hulk won't even try to strike him the moment Surfer is within arms reach? Hulk won't even try to strike Surfer if Surfer somehow miraculously puts his hand on Hulk starting the drain?

Think Carv.

What other ways can Surfer beat Hulk?

Originally posted by Stoic
Huh? The Surfer is Hulk's Kryptonite.

Not in a forum fight as I explained. Please don't ignore my explanation to why he isn't.

Originally posted by h1a8
So in a forum fight Hulk is going to be stupid and allowed Surfer to grab his arm and start draining him?
Hulk won't even try to strike him the moment Surfer is within arms reach? Hulk won't even try to strike Surfer if Surfer somehow miraculously puts his hand on Hulk starting the drain?

Think Carv.

What other ways can Surfer beat Hulk?

I never said Surfer would beat Hulk via draining him because as of late, Hulk had been able to absorb all energy, including cosmic energy. Surfer could bfr Hulk, it's just that simple. Hulk might be more powerful but Surfer opening up a black hole right up under him is a huge possibility.

Originally posted by Stoic
Huh? The Surfer is Hulk's Kryptonite.

I wouldn't say that, but Surfer can win this.

Originally posted by carver9
I never said Surfer would beat Hulk via draining him because as of late, Hulk had been able to absorb all energy, including cosmic energy. Surfer could bfr Hulk, it's just that simple. Hulk might be more powerful but Surfer opening up a black hole right up under him is a huge possibility. BFR is off here - Surfer has to either kill or incapacitate here. That's why I'm asking

Originally posted by carver9
I never said Surfer would beat Hulk via draining him because as of late, Hulk had been able to absorb all energy, including cosmic energy. Surfer could bfr Hulk, it's just that simple. Hulk might be more powerful but Surfer opening up a black hole right up under him is a huge possibility.

Surfer would never think of that.
Or I would say the chances Surfer would think of that is 1/1000

Now don't get me wrong. If this is member controlled Surfer then we would have a good chance of beating Hulk. I have a for sure strategy to win. But Surfer himself might not think of it.

Originally posted by h1a8
Surfer would never think of that.
Or I would say the chances Surfer would think of that is 1/1000

Now don't get me wrong. If this is member controlled Surfer then we would have a good chance of beating Hulk. I have a for sure strategy to win. But Surfer himself might not think of it.

Lol... isn't that how KMC debate, member controlled. Surfer doesn't throw out planet busting power in combat, Superman doesn't blitz people in nano seconds becoming this untouchable character, Hull doesn't thunder clap consistently or energy drain in every fight. KMC debates primarily off of powerset, been like that for years. With that said, my point still stands. Surfer could shrink to the size of an atom and enter each of the people he's fighting and kill them from the inside out. Or just creat clones of himself to destroy them.

You think that would kill Hulk?

Originally posted by carver9
Lol... isn't that how KMC debate, member controlled. Surfer doesn't throw out planet busting power in combat, Superman doesn't blitz people in nano seconds becoming this untouchable character, Hull doesn't thunder clap consistently or energy drain in every fight. KMC debates primarily off of powerset, been like that for years. With that said, my point still stands. Surfer could shrink to the size of an atom and enter each of the people he's fighting and kill them from the inside out. Or just creat clones of himself to destroy them.
Nice joke.

To Carver, a character using their barest minimum to avoid getting hit (something every man, woman, even children and animals, hell even insects would do) is too farfetched a concept for him.

Correct! He thinks that seeing a punch/attack in slow motion and deciding to avoid it takes the same creativity as shrinking to the size of an atom midfight or choosing to open up black holes around someone.

He doesn't know the difference between common sense actions (any reasonable person would do) and exotic actions (only a rare few people can even think of).

Originally posted by h1a8
Correct! He thinks that seeing a punch/attack in slow motion and deciding to avoid it takes the same creativity as shrinking to the size of an atom midfight or choosing to open up black holes around someone.

He doesn't know the difference between common sense actions (any reasonable person would do) and exotic actions (only a rare few people can even think of).

Why wouldn't it take the same creativity when Surfer power cosmic and awareness assist with him calculating his versatility? If we are going to ignore comics for one character, we need to do it for all. That's still debating powerset. Surfer uses his versatility far more than Superman becoming untouchable in combat. FAR more.

Originally posted by carver9
Why wouldn't it take the same creativity when Surfer power cosmic and awareness assist with him calculating his versatility? If we are going to ignore comics for one character, we need to do it for all. That's still debating powerset. Surfer uses his versatility far more than Superman becoming untouchable in combat. FAR more.

But that's the wrong analogy, surely?


You need to be comparing him using his Cosmic awareness in battle with Superman using his speed in battle .

And then, you need to showcase Surfer's speed of thought to use it in battle. You could give me a Swiss Army Knife, I'd still be slower than Tyson with a handgun.

But that's by the by. I note that the Surfer Vs Hulk battle still isn't answered - BFR is off here, Surfer has to kill and/or incapacitate here.

Carver, how does he kill/incapacitate Hulk before Hulk just powers through?

doesn't "cis off" mean that if a character CAN do it, they WILL do it?

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
doesn't "cis off" mean that if a character CAN do it, they WILL do it?

Not quite.

Let's use Superman as an example. Does CIS off Superman mean he flies over at hypersonic speed and chews his opponents face off and eats it - at superspeed - in front of them? I wager no

If we were in charge then yeah an argument can be made for that tactic. I've read Stilts fanfic.

CIS off Superman still fights in character.

Originally posted by carver9
Why wouldn't it take the same creativity when Surfer power cosmic and awareness assist with him calculating his versatility? If we are going to ignore comics for one character, we need to do it for all. That's still debating powerset. Surfer uses his versatility far more than Superman becoming untouchable in combat. FAR more.
The power cosmic doesn't tell you what to do Carv when there are millions of different options available. Surfer still has to think of it and then decide if he wants to do it or not.

Us humans can do a billion different things. Doesnt mean we can think of such things on the fly. Doesn't mean Joe will decide to do what Tom decided in the same situation.

Look at a game of chess where there can be many different options to choose from. Each person will operate their options differently by playing different moves (unless the move is forced).

Avoiding an attack is forced and doesn't take any creativity or propensity.
Doing the things you have Surfer doing takes Carver thinking. Many members wouldn't have thought of that or decided to do that (even if they thought of it), especially Surfer.

This problem can be easily fixed though. Just create a thread called Member controlled Surfer vs whoever. Member controlled Surfer gets all the powers, skills, knowledge, and abilities of Surfer and decides what they would do.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
doesn't "cis off" mean that if a character CAN do it, they WILL do it?

No because a character can't do a million things simultaneously.
Either he does A or B.
Tom will make him do A and Bill will make him do B.
But he can't do both A and B.

Member controlled Surfer should be the description in the OP

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Not quite.

Let's use Superman as an example. Does CIS off Superman mean he flies over at hypersonic speed and chews his opponents face off and eats it - at superspeed - in front of them? I wager no

If we were in charge then yeah an argument can be made for that tactic. I've read Stilts fanfic.

CIS off Superman still fights in character. but what's the point of character induced stupidity being turned off..... if they still fight in character?

Originally posted by h1a8
No because a character can't do a million things simultaneously. this isn't true. especially if we're talking about speedsters.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
but what's the point of character induced stupidity being turned off..... if they still fight in character?

It's for characters who are genuinely that's stupid - like Rhino.

As the rules say:



And:


People then turned it into 'This is what Surfer/Superman should do, this is how they should fight, according to me'.

Edit: it was never meant to be applied to characters like Supes or Surfer. CIP was there for civilians and their safety, CIS was there for stupid characters. Not 'I've drafted Surfer for a BZ, and he opens the match by doing 1,001 things'.

not trying to be difficult, but i genuinely don't understand the distinction.

if surfer is fighting absent of "character induced stupidity" (cis), then he is no longer, by definition, fighting "in character". so why wouldn't he start throwing black holes around and whatnot?

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
not trying to be difficult, but i genuinely don't understand the distinction.

if surfer is fighting absent of "character induced stupidity" (cis), then he is no longer, by definition, fighting "in character". so why wouldn't he start throwing black holes around and whatnot?

Because your assumption then is that the only reason why he doesn't throw black holes around willy-nilly is because he doesn't think of it, that he's genuinely that stupid.

Your assumption assumes that Surfer's character is that of stupidity. Absent of that, he suddenly becomes Midnighter/Constantine in the application of his powers, and becomes an utter bastard.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
but what's the point of character induced stupidity being turned off..... if they still fight in character?

Characters sometimes do stupid things because of they are genuinely that stupid.
If a character does something stupid but they aren't really that stupid then it's called PIS. For example, Thor will choose to fight like a warrior and throw his hammer or use it as a melee item over 80% of the time.

With CIS off Thor is more inclined to fight more intelligently but still within the scope of his creativity (not ours).

Superman would be more willing to let loose and not hold back as another example.

My take is if a character has done it before midbattle in a comic then it is fair game in a forum (with CIS off especially). But if they never done it in a comic then we will be hard pressed to prove they will think of such tactics in a forum fight.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
not trying to be difficult, but i genuinely don't understand the distinction.

if surfer is fighting absent of "character induced stupidity" (cis), then he is no longer, by definition, fighting "in character". so why wouldn't he start throwing black holes around and whatnot?


This. It doesn't make any sense. What you turn cis off how does he still fight in character?
On top of that all these characters have been written by hundreds of different riders who've all had them acting in different fashion at some point. So who's decide what their actual character is? You can go through multiple surfer comics and find him different acting different ways.

Originally posted by h1a8
The power cosmic doesn't tell you what to do Carv when there are millions of different options available. Surfer still has to think of it and then decide if he wants to do it or not.

Us humans can do a billion different things. Doesnt mean we can think of such things on the fly. Doesn't mean Joe will decide to do what Tom decided in the same situation.

Look at a game of chess where there can be many different options to choose from. Each person will operate their options differently by playing different moves (unless the move is forced).

Avoiding an attack is forced and doesn't take any creativity or propensity.
Doing the things you have Surfer doing takes Carver thinking. Many members wouldn't have thought of that or decided to do that (even if they thought of it), especially Surfer.

This problem can be easily fixed though. Just create a thread called Member controlled Surfer vs whoever. Member controlled Surfer gets all the powers, skills, knowledge, and abilities of Surfer and decides what they would do.

Sigh... Silver Surfer flies light years in seconds and while flying, his eyes focused on billions of stars, and his mind calculated every last one of those stars that he visually saw during his flight (that lasted seconds mind you). The stars pinpointed a map that not only was he able to see, but he did all of this FAR faster than light, while visually looking at billions of stars while flying at those speeds.

https://imgur.com/C6FgEnh

Are you really going to tell me that a guy that process things at this speed can't think of the simple things I'm mentioning? He blitz everyone here and enter their brains at the size of an atom and opens up a black hole.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
This. It doesn't make any sense. What you turn cis off how does he still fight in character?
On top of that all these characters have been written by hundreds of different riders who've all had them acting in different fashion at some point. So who's decide what their actual character is? You can go through multiple surfer comics and find him different acting different ways.

Superman without CIS isn't going to fly over and bite his opponents face off. Flash isn't going to sodomize his opponent at light speed.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because your assumption then is that the only reason why he doesn't throw black holes around willy-nilly is because he doesn't think of it, that he's genuinely that stupid.

Your assumption assumes that Surfer's character is that of stupidity. Absent of that, he suddenly becomes Midnighter/Constantine in the application of his powers, and becomes an utter bastard. but we know he CAN open up black holes for example, because he HAS done that on panel. so why wouldn't he choose to do that in a battle where cis is off?

Originally posted by carver9
Sigh... Silver Surfer flows light years in seconds and while flying, his eyes focused on billions of stars, and his mind calculated every last one of those stars that he visually saw during his flight (that lasted seconds mind you). The stars pinpointed a map that not only was he able to see, but he did all of this FAR faster than light, while visually looking at billions of stars while flying at those speeds.

https://imgur.com/C6FgEnh

Are you really going to tell me that a guy that process things at this speed can't think of the simple things I'm mentioning? He blitz everyone here and enter their brains at the size of an atom and opens up a black hole.

He can process when and where a wormhole will open up and where it will take him in a matter of seconds.
Humans can process 11 million bits of information per second.
Things we do naturally, almost without thinking, takes much processing power.
Yet we still can't think of more than a few things in midbattle.

How does that make him think about something that only we can think of? How does that make him choose what we want him to do. Another member, like me, will have Surfer do something totally different. He can't choose both what I want and what you want at the same time.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
but we know he CAN open up black holes for example, because he HAS done that on panel. so why wouldn't he choose to do that in a battle where cis is off?

Because there are many other options. Why would he choose that option over others? He thought of that due to specific circumstances (to help someone or it happened by accident). Why would he even think of that option in a fight?

It takes 2 steps
1. Think of the option
2. Decide to do it over other options.

If you can prove those two things then you are in business

Originally posted by h1a8
He can process when and where a wormhole will open up and where it will take him in a matter of seconds.
Humans can process 11 million bits of information per second.
Things we do naturally, almost without thinking, takes much processing power.
Yet we still can't think of more than a few things in midbattle.

How does that make him think about something that only we can think of? How does that make him choose what we want him to do. Another member, like me, will have Surfer do something totally different. He can't choose both what I want and what you want at the same time.

But he can though. It's crazy that you're comparing Surfer to humans. This is a guy who's cosmic awareness allowed him to comprehend the rules of the Universe in mere seconds...

https://imgur.com/qjiIkvY

But yet, you want to compare his thought process to that of a human.

Anyways, Surfer will know what each of these characters powers are as soon as the bell ring...

Surfer detects the abilities of a being that isn't even by him...

https://imgur.com/EjF0t0j

Can determine the nature of that energy and where it comes from...

https://imgur.com/DrsdlKy

Sense the energy type and where it's coming from...

https://imgur.com/f0eL1ac

Sense the type of energy the fantastic four is emitting...

https://imgur.com/RETJEOG

Hr can even see psionic energy...

https://imgur.com/P1dEvKe

He will not have any issues detecting any of these being energy source, and won't have any issues capitalizing on that energy source, AND he will be fast enough to do it.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
but we know he CAN open up black holes for example, because he HAS done that on panel. so why wouldn't he choose to do that in a battle where cis is off?

Again, your argument (or statement) assumes the only reason why Surfer doesn't open black holes in his opponents' heads is because he is stupid. Not because he doesn't want to hurt or kill or whatever, if because he prefers to blast, whatever.

So if say, Thanos (or Reed or anyone) was next to Surfer and told him 'Surfer, open a black hole in Nova's head' Surfer would go 'yes, that's a great idea, thanks for telling me' and would immediately do it.

Originally posted by carver9
But he can though. It's crazy that you're comparing Surfer to humans. This is a guy who's cosmic awareness allowed him to comprehend the rules of the Universe in mere seconds...

https://imgur.com/qjiIkvY

But yet, you want to compare his thought process to that of a human.

Anyways, Surfer will know what each of these characters powers are as soon as the bell ring...

Surfer detects the abilities of a being that isn't even by him...

https://imgur.com/EjF0t0j

Can determine the nature of that energy and where it comes from...

https://imgur.com/DrsdlKy

Sense the energy type and where it's coming from...

https://imgur.com/f0eL1ac

Sense the type of energy the fantastic four is emitting...

https://imgur.com/RETJEOG

Hr can even see psionic energy...

https://imgur.com/P1dEvKe

He will not have any issues detecting any of these being energy source, and won't have any issues capitalizing on that energy source, AND he will be fast enough to do it.

Of course.
You are changing the goalposts.

If Surfer has done something in a comic (sense someone) the he can certainly do it here.

My point is that if he has 100 different options then who is to say that he will choose what You want him to do and not what Bob or Me wants him to do?

You have to prove BOTH
1. He will think of it
2. He will choose to do it vs other options

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Again, your argument (or statement) assumes the only reason why Surfer doesn't open black holes in his opponents' heads is because he is stupid. Not because he doesn't want to hurt or kill or whatever, if because he prefers to blast, whatever.

So if say, Thanos (or Reed or anyone) was next to Surfer and told him 'Surfer, open a black hole in Nova's head' Surfer would go 'yes, that's a great idea, thanks for telling me' and would immediately do it.

Lol good one

Originally posted by h1a8
Of course.
You are changing the goalposts.

If Surfer has done something in a comic (sense someone) the he can certainly do it here.

My point is that if he has 100 different options then who is to say that he will choose what You want him to do and not what Bob or Me wants him to do?

You have to prove BOTH
1. He will think of it
2. He will choose to do it vs other options

Isn't this the point of the debate though? We tell how a character will beat another character and show that this character is capable of doing those things? All I need to do is prove that Surfer is capable of doing what I've mentioned and we both agree that he is capable of doing it.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Again, your argument (or statement) assumes the only reason why Surfer doesn't open black holes in his opponents' heads is because he is stupid. Not because he doesn't want to hurt or kill or whatever, if because he prefers to blast, whatever.

So if say, Thanos (or Reed or anyone) was next to Surfer and told him 'Surfer, open a black hole in Nova's head' Surfer would go 'yes, that's a great idea, thanks for telling me' and would immediately do it. i kind of see what you're saying, but in that case what's the point of cis even being removed for a guy like surfer then?

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
i kind of see what you're saying, but in that case what's the point of cis even being removed for a guy like surfer then?

That's the exact point.

There isn't, not really. It's why posters like myself always laugh at those who turn it into some kind of BZ Respect thread style scan dump. It completely ignores character, which entails actually knowing about the character's....well, character.

Spider-Man doesn't kill, for example. CIS-off doesn't mean he's suddenly going to punch his opponents' hearts out.

Batman, in character, doesn't use guns (generally - he made an exception for Darkseid for example, but generally). A CIS -off Batman isn't going to show up with a pair of Berettas.

If the only barrier to Surfer throwing black holes is his stupidity, then sure, black hole away.

But it isn't. If he was given a sheet of paper with 'do a barrel roll and then throw a black hole into his head', he's still not doing it.

Let's also add that Surfer can see the past, present, and the future.

https://imgur.com/Fx4vNV9

https://imgur.com/z8Vlm74

He should be more than capable of seeing how a battle will turn out if he took a certain approach.

Originally posted by carver9
Isn't this the point of the debate though? We tell how a character will beat another character and show that this character is capable of doing those things? All I need to do is prove that Surfer is capable of doing what I've mentioned and we both agree that he is capable of doing it.
From the rules:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
From the rules:

Hope you remember those rules every time that your team forgets

Originally posted by Stoic
Hope you remember those rules every time that your team forgets

I always have CIS on for myself

So how does he get past Hulk? BFR is off.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's the exact point.

There isn't, not really. It's why posters like myself always laugh at those who turn it into some kind of BZ Respect thread style scan dump. It completely ignores character, which entails actually knowing about the character's....well, character.

Spider-Man doesn't kill, for example. CIS-off doesn't mean he's suddenly going to punch his opponents' hearts out.

Batman, in character, doesn't use guns (generally - he made an exception for Darkseid for example, but generally). A CIS -off Batman isn't going to show up with a pair of Berettas.

If the only barrier to Surfer throwing black holes is his stupidity, then sure, black hole away.

But it isn't. If he was given a sheet of paper with 'do a barrel roll and then throw a black hole into his head', he's still not doing it. so why is "cis off" even a thing then? if characters are always going to fight in character no matter what, then when would cis even apply to a forum battle anyway?

again not trying to be difficult, just trying to get a better understanding of this concept because i apparently had it wrong.

Originally posted by carver9
Isn't this the point of the debate though? We tell how a character will beat another character and show that this character is capable of doing those things? All I need to do is prove that Surfer is capable of doing what I've mentioned and we both agree that he is capable of doing it.

That's for member controlled characters (arguing pure powerset). Which have their own thread.
Will Superman go around stabbing enemies with his hard penis at superspeed? You know he has that ability right?

There is a fine line to what a character can and won't do.

You are basically saying that since you don't know what that line is then anything goes.

Well in that case just create a thread that allows anything goes (member controlled characters).

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
so why is "cis off" even a thing then? if characters are always going to fight in character no matter what, then when would cis even apply to a forum battle anyway?

again not trying to be difficult, just trying to get a better understanding of this concept because i apparently had it wrong.

CiS off allows characters to remove limitations THEY PURPOSELY PUT ON THEMSELVES. For example, Superman doesn't kill. He will not be trying to vaporize his opponent at the start of the fight. Thor limits himself to melee. Cap throws his shield at powerful opponents leaving himself vulnerable, etc.

CIS off the Surfer would blast at full power. He would be open to do things he would be normally against but still within his creativity and personality.

Now we can change CIS off to mean Member controlled characters. I have no problem with that. But we must all be in agreement

Originally posted by h1a8
That's for member controlled characters (arguing pure powerset). Which have their own thread.
Will Superman go around stabbing enemies with his hard penis at superspeed? You know he has that ability right?

There is a fine line to what a character can and won't do.

You are basically saying that since you don't know what that line is then anything goes.

Well in that case just create a thread that allows anything goes (member controlled characters).

You're known for mentioning Doomsday using his bones to shoot into people even though Doonsday doesn't think, and it was a showing that was only done once. 🤔

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
so why is "cis off" even a thing then? if characters are always going to fight in character no matter what, then when would cis even apply to a forum battle anyway?

again not trying to be difficult, just trying to get a better understanding of this concept because i apparently had it wrong.

It's for people who are genuinely that stupid, but that's it.

If stupidity is the only reason Character A doesn't do something, then CIS-off versions wil do that. If, however, it's not, and there are other reasons/factors why they don't do it, then a CIS-off version still wouldn't do it.

Originally posted by carver9
You're known for mentioning Doomsday using his bones to shoot into people even though Doonsday doesn't think, and it was a showing that was only done once. 🤔

Actually Doomsday DOES think. Re-read DoS and Hunter/Prey, lmao.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
so why is "cis off" even a thing then? if characters are always going to fight in character no matter what, then when would cis even apply to a forum battle anyway?

again not trying to be difficult, just trying to get a better understanding of this concept because i apparently had it wrong. Not the first time this has come up. A lot of people over the years have assumed that "CIS-off" automatically brings a character up to their hyper-esoteric, "Tourney-levels" of power/versatility, and that they can do absolutely anything you can imagine... But that is not how CIS generally works.

As others have mentioned: the CIS Rule honestly might not even apply to the majority of characters anyway. It was initially put in place for characters who have a proclivity for doing...well...absolutely stupid shit in battle. For example: the villain who decisively beats their opponent, but instead of killing them, they start randomly jobbing, which gives the hero enough time to escape/win. If CIS were removed, the villain in question wouldn't do that kind of thing in a forum battle -- this is just a rudimentary example, but hopefully you get the point.

As far as tactics are concerned, lets use Superman as another example:
Even with CIS off, he's still probably not going to insta-blitz his opponent, rip their arms off, and shove them up their ass immediately at the onset... Because even when Superman isn't acting "stupid", he is still fighting in character. As such, he doesn't routinely use those kind of tactics to win a battle.

However, if you were to add something like "bloodlusted", "all-out", "morals off", etc. to the thread stipulations, then a character's tactics may very well change in that respect... But that has nothing to do with the concept of CIS, as a character who is fighting "all-out" or "bloodlusted" is no longer obligated to fight "in character".

Originally posted by Galan007
Not the first time this has come up. A lot of people over the years have assumed that "CIS-off" automatically brings a character up to their hyper-esoteric, "Tourney-levels" of power/versatility, and that they can do absolutely anything you can imagine... But that is not how CIS generally works.

As others have mentioned: the CIS Rule honestly might not even apply to the majority of characters anyway. It was initially put in place for characters who have a proclivity for doing...well...absolutely stupid shit in battle. For example: the villain who decisively beats their opponent, but instead of killing them, they start randomly jobbing, which gives the hero enough time to escape/win. If CIS were removed, the villain in question wouldn't do that kind of thing in a forum battle -- this is just a rudimentary example, but hopefully you get the point.

As far as tactics are concerned, lets use Superman as another example:
Even with CIS off, he's still probably not going to insta-blitz his opponent, rip their arms off, and shove them up their ass immediately at the onset... Because even when Superman isn't acting "stupid", he is still fighting in character. As such, he doesn't routinely use those kind of tactics to win a battle.

However, if you were to add something like "bloodlusted", "all-out", "morals off", etc. to the thread stipulations, then a character's tactics may very well change in that respect... But that has nothing to do with the concept of CIS, as a character who is fighting "all-out" or "bloodlusted" is no longer obligated to fight "in character".



Surfer is bloodlusted in this thread, anyway. Which is why I am wondering how he deals with Hulk when trying to kill/incapacitate him, especially after what we've learnt with the Green Door and his performance against TOBA etc.

Originally posted by Galan007
Not the first time this has come up. A lot of people over the years have assumed that "CIS-off" automatically brings a character up to their hyper-esoteric, "Tourney-levels" of power/versatility, and that they can do absolutely anything you can imagine... But that is not how CIS generally works.

As others have mentioned: the CIS Rule honestly might not even apply to the majority of characters anyway. It was initially put in place for characters who have a proclivity for doing...well...absolutely stupid shit in battle. For example: the villain who decisively beats their opponent, but instead of killing them, they start randomly jobbing, which gives the hero enough time to escape/win. If CIS were removed, the villain in question wouldn't do that kind of thing in a forum battle -- this is just a rudimentary example, but hopefully you get the point.

As far as tactics are concerned, lets use Superman as another example:
Even with CIS off, he's still probably not going to insta-blitz his opponent, rip their arms off, and shove them up their ass immediately at the onset... Because even when Superman isn't acting "stupid", he is still fighting in character. As such, he doesn't routinely use those kind of tactics to win a battle.

However, if you were to add something like "bloodlusted", "all-out", "morals off", etc. to the thread stipulations, then a character's tactics may very well change in that respect... But that has nothing to do with the concept of CIS, as a character who is fighting "all-out" or "bloodlusted" is no longer obligated to fight "in character". makes sense. guess i just thought of cis as like a blanket term for all out. not sure why.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


Surfer is bloodlusted in this thread, anyway. Which is why I am wondering how he deals with Hulk when trying to kill/incapacitate him, especially after what we've learnt with the Green Door and his performance against TOBA etc. black hole bruh.

Originally posted by carver9
You're known for mentioning Doomsday using his bones to shoot into people even though Doonsday doesn't think, and it was a showing that was only done once. 🤔 Therefore it's in his character to do.
Show me Surfer doing the tactics you are making up in battle against someone.

I already said if he's shown it in midbattle then it's fair game.
Surfer fighting someone and creating black hole near them as a means to win would count towards his character. Even if it's once.

Originally posted by h1a8

What other attacks, besides blasts and board, does Surfer have at his disposal against Thor?

Do you know nothing about the Surfer?

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
black hole bruh.

Hulk powers through black holes. Checkmate.

Originally posted by h1a8
So in a forum fight Hulk is going to be stupid and allowed Surfer to grab his arm and start draining him?
Hulk won't even try to strike him the moment Surfer is within arms reach? Hulk won't even try to strike Surfer if Surfer somehow miraculously puts his hand on Hulk starting the drain?

Think Carv.

What other ways can Surfer beat Hulk?

So the Savage Hulk fights with such intelligence does he?

Originally posted by h1a8
Therefore it's in his character to do.
Show me Surfer doing the tactics you are making up in battle against someone.

I already said if he's shown it in midbattle then it's fair game.
Surfer fighting someone and creating black hole near them as a means to win would count towards his character. Even if it's once.

Surfer has mentioned it in a combat sense..

https://ibb.co/4S706hZ

Originally posted by tkitna
So the Savage Hulk fights with such intelligence does he?
Only carver can tell you that. Strange that he's not piped up about how Surfer beats Hulk without BFR.

Originally posted by carver9
Surfer has mentioned it in a combat sense..

https://ibb.co/4S706hZ

That's not canon

Originally posted by h1a8
That's not canon

Who told you that?

So it depends on the situation that each character is in ultimately. This will logically determine how far they would potentially go. Therefore in the future we must stipulate what frame of mind they are in and why, because Cis-less can mean different things to different people.

Originally posted by Stoic
So it depends on the situation that each character is in ultimately. This will logically determine how far they would potentially go. Therefore in the future we must stipulate what frame of mind they are in and why, because Cis-less can mean different things to different people.

But only one interpretation of the rules is correct.

Originally posted by carver9
Who told you that?

I'm probably mistaken. I thought that series was not 616.
Its most likely is.
Carry on.

Originally posted by carver9
Surfer has mentioned it in a combat sense..

https://ibb.co/4S706hZ

Great scan. It shows that Surfer, even with CIS off, wouldn't do any of those things. He clearly knows his options, but in character doesn't want to do it.

Good find

How does he beat Hulk without BFR?

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/38/cc/b6/38ccb605e11b082fdd505fd40c90214e.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-P2XXhklTUeE/X5lwyDz3f_I/AAAAAAAANmg/xaB_F0WaJ30pEgB6U3vLJ0lD6PaUyGyaQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1579/silver.jpg

wondering if things had changed since the heady days of the 70s, nearly 50 years ago ....guess not.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
How does he beat Hulk without BFR?

Are you considering those two scans as BFR though as he got rid of the Hulk? If so, those aren't valid.

Originally posted by h1a8
I'm probably mistaken.

Originally posted by h1a8
You shouldn't participate in debates if you don't know basic information about the characters.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
wondering if things had changed since the heady days of the 70s, nearly 50 years ago ....guess not.

They may and probably have. Just a couple of examples.

Originally posted by tkitna
Are you considering those two scans as BFR though as he got rid of the Hulk? If so, those aren't valid.
No, I consider BFR as literal removal i.e. Surfer dumps Hulk in a black hole and he ends up on Sakaar or something silly. Reverting to Banner isn't BFR, in my book.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No, I consider BFR as literal removal i.e. Surfer dumps Hulk in a black hole and he ends up on Sakaar or something silly. Reverting to Banner isn't BFR, in my book.

Ok. Those were two examples, but yes they are old. Admittingly, i'm not up to date on the Hulk as most are on this board so the examples might not even be valid at this point. Characters change week to week it seems. I'm interested in others peoples opinions if Surfer could still do that today, because honestly i'm not 100% certain.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
makes sense. guess i just thought of cis as like a blanket term for all out. not sure why.

It's because of posters like Carv and Stoic not understanding. Then they try to twist speedsters (like Superman) using their speed as being equal to this argument, then accuse everyone else of double standards.

Superman or Flash not using their speed to avoid hits/counterhit isn't CIS - it's PIS.
Surfer not using his PC to open black holes in people's heads or boil their electrons isn't CIS either - it's his character.

So a CIS-off Surfer Vs a CIS-on Superman still isn't going to throw a black hole in his head, but that Superman would be using his speed.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's because of posters like Carv and Stoic not understanding. Then they try to twist speedsters (like Superman) using their speed as being equal to this argument, then accuse everyone else of double standards.

Superman or Flash not using their speed to avoid hits/counterhit isn't CIS - it's PIS.
Surfer not using his PC to open black holes in people's heads or boil their electrons isn't CIS either - it's his character.

So a CIS-off Surfer Vs a CIS-on Superman still isn't going to throw a black hole in his head, but that Superman would be using his speed. Correct, because that's covered under Full Capacity.



Now, like Supes wouldnt go killing or ripping limbs off like Galan mentioned, but he -will- blitz the bejesus out of you, overwhelm you, and put you down.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No, I consider BFR as literal removal i.e. Surfer dumps Hulk in a black hole and he ends up on Sakaar or something silly. Reverting to Banner isn't BFR, in my book. tbh, Surfer is probably more likely to hit a draining limit than he is to drain Hulks powers at this point.

It used to be fairly common to drain him as a weakness once upon a time, but I have my doubts these days.

Originally posted by Juntai
Correct, because that's covered under Full Capacity.



Now, like Supes wouldnt go killing or ripping limbs off like Galan mentioned, but he -will- blitz the bejesus out of you, overwhelm you, and put you down.
We don't even need to go into blitzing - just defensive use of his speed powers is enough to drive posters into fits and accusations of hypocrisy.

Apparently it is in Superman and Flash's characters to accept and allow themselves to be beaten/stabbed into a KO/death in slow motion, and it's not PIS. One hitKO? Sure, one could argue that. But a prolonged beating in slow motion, taking place over years from their perspective, is apparently the same as Surfer not shooting black holes in his opponents' dicks.

Originally posted by Juntai
tbh, Surfer is probably more likely to hit a draining limit than he is to drain Hulks powers at this point.

It used to be fairly common to drain him as a weakness once upon a time, but I have my doubts these days.
I have my doubts too, though Loki made a fool of Hulk recently, but Hulk has also been draining gamma right back himself lately.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
We don't even need to go into blitzing - just defensive use of his speed powers is enough to drive posters into fits and accusations of hypocrisy.

Apparently it is in Superman and Flash's characters to accept and allow themselves to be beaten/stabbed into a KO/death in slow motion, and it's not PIS. One hitKO? Sure, one could argue that. But a prolonged beating in slow motion, taking placyover years from their perspective, is apparently the same as Surfer not shooting black holes in his opponents' dicks. Yeah, people really hate it with several of the DC characters.

Even times that Superman has been temporarily downed is 100 percent because he's purposely scaling himself to his opponents and ramps up as needed, and he can be surprised and momentarily beaten while holding back. Full capacity undoes all that though.

I thought Superman super speed needs to be activated (pointing to the time Superman and Flash was in the diner and Superman had to up his perception to keep up with Flash).

https://ibb.co/drfpr57

Originally posted by tkitna
Ok. Those were two examples, but yes they are old. Admittingly, i'm not up to date on the Hulk as most are on this board so the examples might not even be valid at this point. Characters change week to week it seems. I'm interested in others peoples opinions if Surfer could still do that today, because honestly i'm not 100% certain.

There is no simple yes or no answer, as that depends on the Hulk incarnation.

Some are incredibly resistant to having their energies tampered with (WWH), some are extremely vulnerable to it - such as Savage or Immortal versions.

But you knew that already, you just pretended not to.

Originally posted by carver9
I thought Superman super speed needs to be activated (pointing to the time Superman and Flash was in the diner and Superman had to up his perception to keep up with Flash).

https://ibb.co/drfpr57

Carver, this was explained to you by Phildo, Galan and myself five years ago:

https://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=659628&pagenumber=3

Originally posted by carver9
I thought Superman super speed needs to be activated (pointing to the time Superman and Flash was in the diner and Superman had to up his perception to keep up with Flash).

https://ibb.co/drfpr57

Superman can increase his speed of perceptions to match flash attosecond levels by concentrating.
But his normal state he's already in superspeed perception levels.
There are scans proving it.

It's like Surfer already being class 100 but can amp himself even higher.

Originally posted by h1a8
Superman can increase his speed of perceptions to match flash attosecond levels by concentrating.
But his normal state he's already in superspeed perception levels.
There are scans proving it.

It's like Surfer already being class 100 but can amp himself even higher.

That's not true. One, Flash wasn't moving at attosecond speeds there, and two, Flash was holding back his speed (he admitted this in the same comic), casually running, and a sweating Supes still had a hard time catching him.

https://ibb.co/VVq28bV

Again, Flash was casually running there, and he was casually grabbing that pie.

Originally posted by carver9
That's not true. One, Flash wasn't moving at attosecond speeds there, and two, Flash was holding back his speed (he admitted this in the same comic), casually running, and a sweating Supes still had a hard time catching him.

https://ibb.co/VVq28bV

Again, Flash was casually running there, and he was casually grabbing that pie.

That just shows.....Flash is the Fastest Man Alive?

Just because Tyson would struggle to keep up with Usain Bolt, doesn't mean Tyson is slow lmao. Or that I would be able to out react Tyson.

@H1 - that link I posted has people - including a mod - explain to Carver why that scan is silly to use as proof. Feel free to steal our arguments.

Originally posted by carver9
That's not true. One, Flash wasn't moving at attosecond speeds there, and two, Flash was holding back his speed (he admitted this in the same comic), casually running, and a sweating Supes still had a hard time catching him.

https://ibb.co/VVq28bV

Again, Flash was casually running there, and he was casually grabbing that pie.

What's not true?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Carver, this was explained to you by Phildo, Galan and myself five years ago:

https://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=659628&pagenumber=3
It also needs to point out Superman's mind always works quickly(and after Infinite Crisis, it works even faster)
https://ibb.co/ZzNdK9L

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
There is no simple yes or no answer, as that depends on the Hulk incarnation.

Some are incredibly resistant to having their energies tampered with (WWH), some are extremely vulnerable to it - such as Savage or Immortal versions.

But you knew that already, you just pretended not to.

Honestly Stilt, I didn't. Savage is who we're talking about, but I don't know what version of the Hulk is running around currently or if the savage version has changed and been amped or if he even exists anymore.

Originally posted by carver9
That's not true. One, Flash wasn't moving at attosecond speeds there, and two, Flash was holding back his speed (he admitted this in the same comic), casually running, and a sweating Supes still had a hard time catching him.

https://ibb.co/VVq28bV

Again, Flash was casually running there, and he was casually grabbing that pie.

How casually do you think he is running here?

https://i.postimg.cc/CK2wSLpd/RCO009-1468807794.jpg

Originally posted by tkitna
Honestly Stilt, I didn't.

https://i.imgur.com/IbPGYG0.gif

Originally posted by carver9
I thought Superman super speed needs to be activated (pointing to the time Superman and Flash was in the diner and Superman had to up his perception to keep up with Flash).

https://ibb.co/drfpr57

If it was anyone else I would assume they just misread the scan and needed clarifying. With you, it's clear you're just a trolling dick.

Originally posted by -Pr-
If it was anyone else I would assume they just misread the scan and needed clarifying. With you, it's clear you're just a trolling dick.

Lmmfao... I'm not trolling.

I still think Surfer stomps anyone here, some easier than others.

Originally posted by -Pr-
If it was anyone else I would assume they just misread the scan and needed clarifying. With you, it's clear you're just a trolling dick.

Originally posted by carver9
Lmmfao... I'm not trolling.
TBF, Philo did once replied to you with the scene to you. To show that WW is a joke compared to Flash. Just a few years ago, when you argued who is faster between Superman and Wonder Woman



The thread of 2020
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=17099425#post17099425

Carver's post in 2024
Originally posted by carver9
Yes, Flash is obviously faster, but it shows she does have running speeds to keep up with attosecond Flash temporarily...

https://ibb.co/SvpBbH7

Edit:
DS also pointed out that the argument and scan you used in this thread was countered by a thread a few years ago.....So yeah, it hardly to believe someone would do this(repetition, of multiple arguments that get countered just a few years ago) unintentionally

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
TBF, Philo did once replied to you with the scene to you. To show that WW is a joke compared to Flash. Just a few years ago, when you argued who is faster between Superman and Wonder Woman



The thread of 2020
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=17099425#post17099425

Carver's post in 2024


Edit:
DS also pointed out that the argument and scan you used in this thread was countered by a thread a few years ago.....So yeah, it hardly to believe someone would do this(repetition, of multiple arguments that get countered just a few years ago) unintentionally

In that same post, I said Flash is faster (he's MUCH faster than anyone tbh). The scene that you all are discussing between Superman and Flash is Flash being mind controlled and even admitting he was fighting against it so that Superman could catch him.

Flash admitted he toys around with Superman (and Wonder Woman) when it comes to speed.

Originally posted by carver9
In that same post, I said Flash is faster (he's MUCH faster than anyone tbh). The scene that you all are discussing between Superman and Flash is Flash being mind controlled and even admitting he was fighting against it so that Superman could catch him.

Flash admitted he toys around with Superman (and Wonder Woman) when it comes to speed.
I think you're moving the goalposts here.

The two posts you made one was trying to say Diana can keep up with Flash to prove her speed. But in reality, Flash is running backwards and still beating Diana.

The other was trying to prove Superman needs to active his superspeed. But in reality, as pointed out by another thread, your scan can't prove it, and quite ironically, it actually hurts your case.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
I think you're moving the goalposts here.

The two posts you made one was trying to say Diana can keep up with Flash to prove her speed. But in reality, Flash is running backwards and still beating Diana.

The other was trying to prove Superman needs to active his superspeed. But in reality, as pointed out by another thread, your scan can't prove it, and quite ironically, it actually hurts your case.

I never said Diana can KEEP up with Flash, I said Flash is faster but she kept up with him which she did, even though again, Flash is faster.

This all started because of bullets, but bullets are held to high standards in DC since most of the JLA doesn't even have the speed to deflect a single shot, even on their best days...

https://ibb.co/dGQcK0y

Originally posted by carver9
I never said Diana can KEEP up with Flash, I said Flash is faster but she kept up with him which she did, even though again, Flash is faster.

This all started because of bullets, but bullets are held to high standards in DC since most of the JLA doesn't even have the speed to deflect a single shot, even on their best days...

https://ibb.co/dGQcK0y

You're saying she can keep up, whilst saying you never said she could keep up?

Wtf lmao.

Also your scan....Black Canary can't, Plastic Man can't, Batman (sad to say) can't....so yeah, MMH is right.

It just says MMH is slow lmao. Note how Flash even retorts that one bullet is ok, but more is doubtful - and no one challenges that assertion.

Great scan, Carverino

Originally posted by carver9
I never said Diana can KEEP up with Flash
Originally posted by carver9
I said Flash is faster but she kept up with him which she did
Originally posted by carver9
she does have running speeds to keep up with attosecond Flash temporarily...

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Basically this thread all over again

She's not as fast as Flash, just fast enough to keep pace with a holding back Flash. Full speed Flash leaves everyone in the dust.

She was losing the race.

Keeping pace with a holding back Flash means nothing, dear Carver - and no point in trying to pretend you're ignoring me as everyone can see my responses to your usual idiocy.

Alfred can keep pace with Flash if Flash is holding back, ninny.

I think everyone can agree that, in terms of raw speed, Flash is faster than pretty much any comic book character -- Marvel, DC, Indie, doesn't matter.

So then the question becomes: why is it even a notable feat for Dianna to "keep pace with" a "holding back Flash"..? Because he was clearly just dialing his speed down to roughly her level during that encounter, so how do we even begin to quantify it?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's because of posters like Carv and Stoic not understanding. Then they try to twist speedsters (like Superman) using their speed as being equal to this argument, then accuse everyone else of double standards.

Superman or Flash not using their speed to avoid hits/counterhit isn't CIS - it's PIS.
Surfer not using his PC to open black holes in people's heads or boil their electrons isn't CIS either - it's his character.

So a CIS-off Surfer Vs a CIS-on Superman still isn't going to throw a black hole in his head, but that Superman would be using his speed.
Are you criticizing the specific wording of the tactics being suggested or the ruthlessness he'd need to attempt any such tactics along those lines? For instance, if someone was using the statement "Surfer turns Supes cape into K-nite" and your criticism were applied to it, would it be at the specific absurdity of transmuting the cape or would apply to the notion of him in any way using K-nite?

Originally posted by Galan007
I think everyone can agree that, in terms of raw speed, Flash is faster than pretty much any comic book character -- Marvel, DC, Indie, doesn't matter.

So then the question becomes: why is it even a notable feat for Dianna to "keep pace with" a "holding back Flash"..? Because he was clearly just dialing his speed down to roughly her level during that encounter, so how do we even begin to quantify it?

That's the thing, Flash is ALWAYS holding back, so using him as evidence of speed is just blantely wrong. He's admitted on multiple occasions that he held back against both Diana and Supes.

I only used that scan of Wonder Woman and Flash racing for one reason and one reason only.

Originally posted by carver9
That's the thing, Flash is ALWAYS holding back, so using him as evidence of speed is just blantely wrong. He's admitted on multiple occasions that he held back against both Diana and Supes.
And it has nothing to do with your point, no?

After all, the question(in both threads) is asking the proofs for Diana's speed. And the scan you posted doesn't prove that
Although another point may be whether Superman's superspeed needs to be activated. But this has no relation to Flash holds back.

Originally posted by carver9
I only used that scan of Wonder Woman and Flash racing for one reason and one reason only.
Nah, you used the scan because you had a meltdown due to the recent Wonder Woman issue

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Carver, how do you feel the recent statement for Diana's speed?
Originally posted by carver9
It's a low showing, and even YOU don't believe Diana is slower than bullets. This is a person that has slapped heat vision that was coming from all directions (Amazo) without trouble and someone who has outright blitzed Amazo who had Flash and Superman powers during the time. Based off showings, Diana is the fastest person in comics when it comes to pure reflexes. No one can match her

Tbf that diner scene is also used because it's something only top speedsters really have, i.e. the 'time is frozen' trope.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TimeStandsStill

So Superman having these kinds of feats is actually pretty impressive, even if Flash has to slow down for him

Can't think of WW having a feat like this, but then I'm no expert.

Originally posted by carver9
That's the thing, Flash is ALWAYS holding back, so using him as evidence of speed is just blantely wrong. He's admitted on multiple occasions that he held back against both Diana and Supes.

He has to hold back way more to go down to Diana's level, than against Supes. Ergo, Supes is faster.

Proof? He never beat Supes whilst casually running backwards, waving with a smile on his face.

Tyson can hold back against two different people. But if he is able to beat one guy by holding back his punches, and he beats the other by tying his arms behind his back, shutting his eyes and standing still, that tells you which of those two guys is a better boxer.

You just want to put Derrick in a cage with horny Tyson... don't you?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Both Diana and Jesse used a gateway that amped their speed hundredfold.

https://i.postimg.cc/62ccx4gJ/image.jpg
The fastest speed, the barrier of the speed force (terminal velocity) is well beyond the speed of light.

So 1/100th of the many times the speed of light is still impressive imo.