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Pre-Flashpoint versions
Barry
http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/BA_zps69f98ead.jpg
Wally
http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/WW_zpsddfdd2b6.jpg
Bart
http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/BA2_zps3b1d77a4.jpg

vs

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/AW_zps213d8418.jpg

3 vs 5?

The Five

Originally posted by pym-ftw
3 vs 5?

The Five

Speed makes up for the numbers.

3 planet busters are on team 2

Originally posted by pym-ftw
3 planet busters are on team 2

So? Flash's believe it or not have ran on air. Annihilators could destroy the earth and they would still be able to fight.

Annihilators crush them.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Annihilators crush them.


Ya I believe they do 2

How would they crush Bart Allen as adult? Bart pretty much owned Zoom, IIRC.

The Flashes do 900 trillion infinite mass punches per square inch of body mass in half of a picosecond.

and still lose

Originally posted by StyleTime
The Flashes do 900 trillion infinite mass punches per square inch of body mass in half of a picosecond.

Or a speed steal. Avatar of the Speed Force and all.

Flash's are stupid
And they lose this fight thanks to Silver Surfer most in part.
Thou other here would take them 2..
Only one I see going down is Ronan

Originally posted by Supermex
Flash's are stupid
And they lose this fight thanks to Silver Surfer most in part.
Thou other here would take them 2..
Only one I see going down is Ronan

I'd like to hear opinions, instead of just saying they lose. Bart with the Speed Force was a beast and owned Zoom. Same Zoom who did well against the JLA.

Originally posted by Golgo13
I'd like to hear opinions, instead of just saying they lose. Bart with the Speed Force was a beast and owned Zoom. Same Zoom who did well against the JLA.




I did give an opinion...
I said they lose cuase of/thanks to the Silver Surfer..

How? How is Surfer even going to contend in speed?

Originally posted by Golgo13
How? How is Surfer even going to contend in speed?


SS is faster than them..
Surfer's fast enough to get to either Flash, and powerful enough to transmute him into a coffee-cup within a femtosecond.
When everyone involved have speed parity but one of them can open singularities/transmute stuff/area blast the arena at fight start, well, that's about that.

Surfer isn't faster than Barry, let alone Bart.

Originally posted by Golgo13
I'd like to hear opinions, instead of just saying they lose. Bart with the Speed Force was a beast and owned Zoom. Same Zoom who did well against the JLA. so what? everyone here has pretty good upper end feats. the annihilators have more versatility, more numbers and more raw power.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Surfer isn't faster than Barry, let alone Bart.

Yes I believe he is my good man..
Plus on top of that Raw power..

Don't think so. Flash's are pretty versatile as well. I don't think Surfer can resist a speed drain.

Originally posted by 753
so what? everyone here has pretty good upper end feats. the annihilators have more versatility, more numbers and more raw power.

And Zoom's average is really good.

Originally posted by Golgo13
How? How is Surfer even going to contend in speed?



Take Silver Surfer out of this fight and will get a much closer fight..

I doubt it.

The problem with this matchup is that adding more people to Annihilator's team, or removing some, won't really help deal with the main issue. If the first team is too fast then that's just how it is and it's hard to get around that when the Flash'es speed is just so extreme.

Originally posted by curryman
The problem with this matchup is that adding more people to Annihilator's team, or removing some, won't really help deal with the main issue. If the first team is too fast then that's just how it is and it's hard to get around that when the Flash'es speed is just so extreme.

I think the Annihilators numbers could balance things out, but the Flash's have much better reaction time and speed feats.

Originally posted by Golgo13
And Zoom's average is really good. thats a good argument for a zoom thread

Well, I think Surfer transmuting the Flashes into inanimate objects is ridiculous.

I do think that he (and other Annihilators) has the means to hit them, though.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Well, I think Surfer transmuting the Flashes into inanimate objects is ridiculous.

I do think that he (and other Annihilators) has the means to hit them, though.

The other Annihilators would hardly touch Bart and the others. Bart was moving so fast that Zoom just vibrated though him. He wasn't getting any hits off. And this is Zoom, who Wally amped had a hard time getting a hit off.

Originally posted by Golgo13
The other Annihilators would hardly touch Bart and the others. Bart was moving so fast that Zoom just vibrated though him. He wasn't getting any hits off. And this is Zoom, who Wally amped had a hard time getting a hit off.

And yet Flashes get tagged in comics when using their speed with various degrees of difficulty. Even Zoom has been tagged by the likes of Green Lantern and a blind folded Wonder Woman.

prep-man, you do understand the notion of an average don't you? in case you don't, it's not a snapshot of their highest showings.

Originally posted by Golgo13
The other Annihilators would hardly touch Bart and the others. Bart was moving so fast that Zoom just vibrated though him. He wasn't getting any hits off. And this is Zoom, who Wally amped had a hard time getting a hit off.



Your really not given Quasar and Gladiator there due credit when it comes to speed, with surfer throwin on top of that as well.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
And yet Flashes get tagged in comics when using their speed with various degrees of difficulty. Even Zoom has been tagged by the likes of Green Lantern and a blind folded Wonder Woman.

Context is important in these fights I think.

There's a good chance that energy blasts can kill them here, so I don't see why they wouldn't be trying their very best not to get hit.

Originally posted by curryman
Context is important in these fights I think.

There's a good chance that energy blasts can kill them here, so I don't see why they wouldn't be trying their very best not to get hit.

Context is always important, but you also have plenty of showings where (a) Flash is tagged while moving fast, presumably not trying to be hit. Whether it's a flush connection, anticipating where they'll be next, or just a massive AoE, it's happened enough to justify the Annihilators being able to hit them eventually.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Contexe is always important, but you also have plenty of showings where (a) Flash is tagged while moving fast, presumably not trying to be hit. Whether it's a flush connection, anticipating where they'll be next, or just a massive AoE, it's happened enough to justify the Annihilators being able to hit them eventually.

There are certainly many incidents of the Flash being tagged while moving fast.

Those are not necessarily relevant when the Flash is doing his very best to not get hit.

Originally posted by 753
prep-man, you do understand the notion of an average don't you? in case you don't, it's not a snapshot of their highest showings.

Either way, he hardly has any low showings at all. Zoom was consistently powerful. Much more than a solo herald.

I feel like people are using "forum avatars" here to most extreme degree.

Surfer being faster than ANY Flash is laughable. Literally any flash would blitz him let alone adult Bart or Barry Allen.

Surfer can fly at multiple speeds of light, warp speeds an hyperspace. What people miss is that this mean several things regarding the Surfer:
1) He can see for light years ahead of himself. He would have to in order not to run into things while traveling many times the speed of light.
2) Also, his reflexes would have to also be greater than light speeds so as not to run into objects (you'd be surprised how much smaller a football field is to very fast player, a running back for example, vs an offensive lineman...).
3) Finally, his thinking would be greatly accelerated so that he could react at these speeds. Reaction time (reflexes) and thinking, the Flash is outclassed by the Surfer.



SS travel speed is superior, because we have seen him traveling to the rim of the universe in a matter of instants after the annihilation war. During the infinity gauntlet, he also has covered over a light year in the span of a second... before missing the gauntlet on Thanos's fist. It would mean traveling 31536000 times faster than light.


I doubt the speed force could even trump Surfers cosmic power.
Surfer has been shown to be able to stop time/motion for those other than himself, as well as depower others for example alteration of their genetic make-up, or by averting their mind, ect. So he could win easily if he wanted to and wasn't really playing fair, something he's known to be subjective to do as it is. You can't beat Surfer if he doesn't let you move.

When Wally was fighting the AM, he lent speed to PC Superman. Not even PC Superman was faster than the Flash. Wally stomps pretty much anyone in the speed department. For the exception of Zoom and Professor Zoom.

Supremex, that post just earned you a one-way ticket to the ignore list buddy

Originally posted by curryman
Supremex, that post just earned you a one-way ticket to the ignore list buddy


Hey!! LoL

Originally posted by Supermex
Surfer can fly at multiple speeds of light, warp speeds an hyperspace. What people miss is that this mean several things regarding the Surfer:
1) He can see for light years ahead of himself. He would have to in order not to run into things while traveling many times the speed of light.
2) Also, his reflexes would have to also be greater than light speeds so as not to run into objects (you'd be surprised how much smaller a football field is to very fast player, a running back for example, vs an offensive lineman...).
3) Finally, his thinking would be greatly accelerated so that he could react at these speeds. Reaction time (reflexes) and thinking, the Flash is outclassed by the Surfer.



SS travel speed is superior, because we have seen him traveling to the rim of the universe in a matter of instants after the annihilation war. During the infinity gauntlet, he also has covered over a light year in the span of a second... before missing the gauntlet on Thanos's fist. It would mean traveling 31536000 times faster than light.


I doubt the speed force could even trump Surfers cosmic power.
Surfer has been shown to be able to stop time/motion for those other than himself, as well as depower others for example alteration of their genetic make-up, or by averting their mind, ect. So he could win easily if he wanted to and wasn't really playing fair, something he's known to be subjective to do as it is. You can't beat Surfer if he doesn't let you move.
That's almost entirely false. Surfer has to enter hyperspace to go FTL. His flight speed in normal space is equal to Jay Garrick's running speed, in reflexes any flash shits on him.

@Prep, that was byrne superman.

Originally posted by Supermex
Hey!! LoL

I'm just trolling

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's almost entirely false. Surfer has to enter hyperspace to go FTL. His flight speed in normal space is equal to Jay Garrick's running speed, in reflexes any flash shits on him.

@Prep, that was byrne superman.




Show proof that Flash is faster than Surfer? Plz cause I may be wrong.
But just you saying that flash is faster don't mean it is. I just mentioned some stuff that SS has done on panel. Things thing Flash wouldn't be able to do.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's almost entirely false. Surfer has to enter hyperspace to go FTL. His flight speed in normal space is equal to Jay Garrick's running speed, in reflexes any flash shits on him.

@Prep, that was byrne superman.



Why would you say its false?
I have no reason to lie or make things up..

The flashes are definitely faster then the annihilators.
But that doesn't mean they can't be hit.
Annihilators for the majority

Originally posted by Supermex
Show proof that Flash is faster than Surfer? Plz cause I may be wrong.
But just you saying that flash is faster don't mean it is. I just mentioned some stuff that SS has done on panel. Things thing Flash wouldn't be able to do.
Show you what? Surfer isn't lightspeed fast in flight speed without hyperspace let alone in reflex speed in which even Jay Garrick shits on him.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Show you what? Surfer isn't lightspeed fast in flight speed without hyperspace let alone in reflex speed in which even Jay Garrick shits on him.
Let's try and calm it down a little bit.

Originally posted by curryman
Let's try and calm it down a little bit.
Jay Garrick doesn't get punked in speed by people like spidey, midnight sun, Ganemyde and utterly outclassed by an underlight speedster in Runner.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Jay Garrick doesn't get punked in speed by people like spidey, midnight sun, Ganemyde and utterly outclassed by an underlight speedster in Runner.

He probably would get hit by Midnight Sun and Ganymede under the same circumstances.

It's a well known fact that Surfer can go past lightspeed.

If you wanna take Spidey vs Surfer's speed or the lightspeed nonsense to the battlezone, feel free. I'll start looking for judges

Edit.

Originally posted by curryman
He probably would get hit by Midnight Sun and Ganymede under the same circumstances.

It's a well known fact that Surfer can go past lightspeed.

If you wanna take Spidey vs Surfer's speed or the lightspeed nonsense to the battlezone, feel free. I'll start looking for judges
He was blitzed by all three, not just hit.

He can only go FTL in hyperspace.

No need for a BZ, if you like I would post all the evidences in this thread and you can judge them yourself.

Annihilators win,

Originally posted by abhilegend
He was blitzed by all three, not just hit.

He can only go FTL in hyperspace.

No need for a BZ, if you like I would post all the evidences in this thread and you can judge them yourself.

lmao I don't have the patience for BZ, don't worry.

I know about the spidey stuff, but I don't know why the Midnight Sun's showing is so bad all of a sudden. He doesn't really have any established limits and his showings contained to that arc were really good.

Surfer kills the Flashes, in a flash. Literally.

They stand no chance against him, he's easily as fast as (if not far far far faster than) them and he can tag multiple targets at once and his mind operates to fast that he can calculate their trajectories faster than the speed of teleportation.


Simply put, Flashes are ****ed when they face The Surfer.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Either way, he hardly has any low showings at all. Zoom was consistently powerful. Much more than a solo herald. Im talking about the flash

Originally posted by janus77
Surfer kills the Flashes, in a flash. Literally.

They stand no chance against him, he's easily as fast as (if not far far far faster than) them and he can tag multiple targets at once and his mind operates to fast that he can calculate their trajectories faster than the speed of teleportation.


Simply put, Flashes are ****ed when they face The Surfer.







Thanks Janus77 you said what my slow mind wanted to say.. jus could find the words to day it... lol

Originally posted by Supermex
Hey!! LoL

Originally posted by curryman
I'm just trolling
http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/219/ea1/5ae/resized/troll-face-meme-generator-i-m-just-trolling-u-y-u-so-mad-145dbe.jpg

Lol @ ABHI lowballing Surfer. You really need to stop ABHI.

You'll be hard pressed to find two characters more prone to "forum mode" than Flash and Surfer.

LOL@Surfer soloing the three flashes

Annihilators win, but LOL.

Originally posted by 753
Im talking about the flash

Adult Bart had the entire Speed Force inside of him. He had a huge amp, which is why he owned Zoom. I'd say he was trans level, IMO.

oh and how well did he use that power on average?

Originally posted by 753
oh and how well did he use that power on average?

Not sure, but like I said, he owned Zoom.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/BA_zpsa5bc269b.jpg

Surfer, without moving, transmutes the Flash's costumes into a hyperactive flesh eating bacteria colony which they wouldn't realize has occured until it is too late (seeing as though they might have fast senses, they do not super senses, cosmic awareness, or microvision).

Game.

Blouses.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
Surfer, without moving, transmutes the Flash's costumes into a hyperactive flesh eating bacteria colony which they wouldn't realize has occured until it is too late (seeing as though they might have fast senses, they do not super senses, cosmic awareness, or microvision).

Game.

Blouses.

WHen has Surfer done that to Speedsters such as these?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
You'll be hard pressed to find two characters more prone to "forum mode" than Flash and Surfer.

Yep.

Surfer vs (anyone)
"Surfer transmute him into _____"

Surfer vs (Mutant)
"Surfer turns his Xgene off"

Flash vs (anyone)
"Flash blitzes and kills him in the first picosecond"

So what happens when Kallark realizes he can't catch the flashes and just attacks the planet?

Haven't you heard? All the Flashes run through space and speedblitz with IMPs within 2 picoseconds ftw

They can hit with the force of galaxies.

How long can they last in space?

It doesn't matter that they have no oxygen left because they're faster than Death...except Barry...& Bart.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
It doesn't matter that they have no oxygen left because they're faster than Death...except Barry...& Bart.

Barry's not faster than Death?

Then how come he outran him 20 years straight?

Originally posted by pym-ftw
So what happens when Kallark realizes he can't catch the flashes and just attacks the planet?

All characters fight in character. And what is Kallark going to do to stop a Speed drain>

Surfer uses the PC to bring all the Annihilators into the Speed Force, then they leisurely go about stomping The Flashes to dust.

PC FTW!

The Speed Force would destroy the Annihilators.

Nope, it would just be subsumed by The Power Cosmic.

Speed Force is a universal energy. Surfer isn't doing anything to the SF and there is nothing he can really do, if Wally or Bart decides to do a energy drain.

so is the PC. if the best feat you can show for speed force flash is defeating one trans level character, Im afraid annihilators have feats to match and surpass

The Power Cosmic is more powerful than the Speed Force

it's not about the power, but about how much these individual characters can squeeze out of it. and although some flashes embody the force, their average with it aint that big of a deal.

Originally posted by 753
it's not about the power, but about how much these individual characters can squeeze out of it. and although some flashes embody the force, their average with it aint that big of a deal.




True

I understand

Don't the Flashes have regular human level durability and endurance? Just speeded up healing and metabolism, as a result of the Speed Force.

I wouldn't imagine they could survive a single hit from one of the lower Heralds like ... BRB or Ronan.

no, their stats increase when their powers are active, at least

Originally posted by Supermex
The Power Cosmic is more powerful than the Speed Force

We're not talking about individual forces of nature here. What has Surfer done with the PC that puts it over an avatar of the SF?

Originally posted by 753
so is the PC. if the best feat you can show for speed force flash is defeating one trans level character, Im afraid annihilators have feats to match and surpass
Wally stomped COIE Anti-Monitor.

flash 150? that version of the anti-monitor was a disapointing echo of the original coie portrayal. Flash only broke his physical shell and did next to nothing to the energy being. I was gonna go on a long ass scan hunt, but galan has saved me the trouble;


Originally posted by Galan007
Eh, yes Flash may have busted up AM's shell, but before that happened a few key plot points transpired, and should be noted.


1.) AM had been noticeably depowered via Dr. Light absorbing energy from a nearby anti-matter star, and using said energies to weaken AM:

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1218399_am1.jpg

----

2.) The cumulative efforts of the other heroes present then blew a hole in AM, and downed him:

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1218400_am2.jpg
http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1218401_am3.jpg http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1218418_am4.jpg

Granted, Flash lended them his speed, so they could catch a second wind - but it was still their own powers which further weakened and already depowered AM.

----

3.) Only then, (when AM was obviously quite weak,) did Flash destroy his shell:

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1218419_am5.jpg http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1218420_am6.jpg http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1218421_am7.jpg http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1218422_am8.jpg


But as you can see, the very next panel after having his shell busted, AM was already back up in his energy form. He then vaporized the heroes present, with a single blast. In short, Flash's attack did nothing at all in the long run.



The only reason I brought up these points is to prevent some random fanboy from saying "FLASH WTF PWNZERZ AM!!11!"

Originally posted by 753
flash 150? that version of the anti-monitor was a disapointing echo of the original coie portrayal. Flash only broke his physical shell and did next to nothing to the energy being. I was gonna go on a long ass scan hunt, but galan has saved me the trouble;
How so? You know that happened in COIE too and that took a pre-crisis kryptonian to break AM's shell. You're acting like breaking a weakened AM's shell isn't a big deal.

Originally posted by Galan007
The only reason I brought up these points is to prevent some random fanboy from saying "FLASH WTF PWNZERZ AM!!11!"
Originally posted by abhilegend
Wally stomped COIE Anti-Monitor.

sly

Originally posted by abhilegend
How so? You know that happened in COIE too and that took a pre-crisis kryptonian to break AM's shell. You're acting like breaking a weakened AM's shell isn't a big deal. oh breaking the shell is a huge deal, it's just that he didn't really pawn anti-monitor. while we're at it, thor hasn't pawned exitar and hulk never pawned onslaught.

Thor didn't destroy Exitar's entire shell with an amped Godblast that shattered mjolnir. Onslaught goading hulk into breaking his shell means what exactly? Wally actually downed AM for a moment.

Originally posted by abhilegend
How so? You know that happened in COIE too and that took a pre-crisis kryptonian to break AM's shell. You're acting like breaking a weakened AM's shell isn't a big deal.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Thor didn't destroy Exitar's entire shell with an amped Godblast that shattered mjolnir. Onslaught goading hulk into breaking his shell means what exactly? Wally actually downed AM for a moment. big difference, it still went through.

shattering onslaught's shell was a big deal no matter how you look at it.

flash did not pawn antimonitor.

Originally posted by vince_slice
sly

Ha ha

Lol at Onslaught letting Hulk crack his shell. Does anyone have scans proving this.?