JLA/Avengers Krona Vs Abraxas

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Golgo13
http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/KR_zpscc070ac0.jpg

vs

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/ab_zps4c126dd4.gif

operator616
close battle, krona was more powerful than eternity, and the combined might of the 12 artifacts couldn't take him, yet he didn't show the destructive capability that abraxas has, think i'll give abraxas the edge here.

zopzop
Probably JLA/Avengers Krona.

Even with all those artifacts (which included a Cosmic Cube and the IG) they couldn't stop him.

Golgo13
Originally posted by zopzop
Probably JLA/Avengers Krona.

Even with all those artifacts (which included a Cosmic Cube and the IG) they couldn't stop him.

Who had those artifacts? They tried the IG on Krona?

Galan007
As had been previously established in issues of Green Lantern(not to mention the fact that he solidified the aforementioned continuity by erasing a few universes during JLA/Avengers), that version of Krona, even at his base level, was literally the physical embodiment of entropy itself... This alone should be enough to place Krona over Abraxas, given that DC's entropy=Marvel's UN>Abraxas.

However, if we are using 'peak' Krona, then take note of the items he had under his control:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15887720/ja-01-25.jpg.html
The infinity gems, a cosmic cube, and the UN(among several other insanely uber relics.)

I don't see how an intelligible argument can even be made for Abraxas, tbh. Krona stomps.

operator616
^the thing with krona though, after JLA/Avengers he appeared in trinity, he seemed to have been just as powerful as he was in the crossover and yet he was defeated by the cosmic superman, batman and wonder woman who showed no more than planetary level feats throughout the whole volume 3 of the series (after which they were transformed)

Galan007
JLA/Avengers Krona=/=Trinity Krona.

Two.Completely.Different.Versions.Of.The.Character.

SevenShackles
I want to say Abraxas but really can't. That's my answer.

operator616
Originally posted by Galan007
JLA/Avengers Krona=/=Trinity Krona.

Two.Completely.Different.Versions.Of.The.Character.

why? at the end of the crossover he was trapped in the cosmic egg, and then released in the trinity series. and seemed just as powerful.

Galan007
He was no longer the embodiment of entropy during Trinity, nor did he wield any of the 'items of power'.

So once more:
JLA/Avengers Krona=/=Trinity Krona.

Two.Completely.Different.Versions.Of.The.Character.

Golgo13
Originally posted by Galan007
As had been previously established in issues of Green Lantern(not to mention the fact that he solidified the aforementioned continuity by erasing a few universes during JLA/Avengers), that version of Krona, even at his base level, was literally the physical embodiment of entropy itself... This alone should be enough to place Krona over Abraxas, given that DC's entropy=Marvel's UN>Abraxas.

However, if we are using 'peak' Krona, then take note of the items he had under his control:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15887720/ja-01-25.jpg.html
The infinity gems, a cosmic cube, and the UN(among several other insanely uber relics.)

I don't see how an intelligible argument can even be made for Abraxas, tbh. Krona stomps.

I'm not using Krona with the artifacts. However, I'm using the Krona who absorbed multiple universes into himself.

Galan007
Originally posted by Golgo13
I'm not using Krona with the artifacts. However, I'm using the Krona who absorbed multiple universes into himself. Cool, that was Krona as the embodiment of entropy. Given that he destroyed at least 2 universes on panel, he not only wields the fundamental power of entropy, but subsequently the power of 2 entire universes as well.

the Darkone
Originally posted by Galan007
Cool, that was Krona as the embodiment of entropy. Given that he destroyed at least 2 universes on panel, he not only wields the fundamental power of entropy, but subsequently the power of 2 entire universes as well.

But wasn't Abraxas causing universe to collapse as he approach them?

Galan007
Originally posted by the Darkone
But wasn't Abraxas causing universe to collapse as he approach them? Abraxas ultimately caused multiversal damage, yes. However, he never destroyed any universes in one fell swoop on panel, as Krona did.

Anyway, it goes back to my original point: DC's entropy=Marvel's UN>Abraxas. Ergo, Krona>Abraxas.

Mr Master
Hey there friends ...

Marvel has an actual concept that represents "Entropy."

The UN is just an immensely powerful weapon
that can erase space-time and everything in-between across all creation.

Krona was empowered by two universes that came from some multiverse
shared by Marvel/DC for sake of the crossover.

Eternity/Infinity representing the Multiversal Space-Time Continuum
were afraid of Abraxas and indeed summoned TOAA (Reed lol) to solve the problem.

Eternity/Infinity

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/3607110_etpf1.jpg

Eternity/Infinity >>> two universes

zopzop
Originally posted by Mr Master

Eternity/Infinity representing the Multiversal Space-Time Continuum
were afraid of Abraxas and indeed summoned TOAA (Reed lol) to solve the problem. laughing
thumb up

God, I hate Reed.

TheGodKiller
Better eliminate that thought from your mind. Reed is omniscient, and he'll figure out a way to come to our dimension/universe, to zop you out of existence.

Galan007
Originally posted by Mr Master
Hey there friends ...

Marvel has an actual concept that represents "Entropy."

The UN is just an immensely powerful weapon
that can erase space-time and everything in-between across all creation.

Krona was empowered by two universes that came from some multiverse
shared by Marvel/DC for sake of the crossover.
Marvel's personification of Entropy needed help(in the form of Genis) to kill/erase Eternity.

DC's version of entropy, on the other hand, is a destructive force that, when unleashed, erases time/space/matter/energy/concepts all by its lonesome...

"This destructive force is working its way back through the timestream--simultaneously wiping out time and space.":
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13118452_3.jpg

"It seems that entire segments of time--and the universe--are being destroyed.":
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13118454_4.jpg

"All-consuming, destructive entropy has been unleashed, crushing every shred of matter in existence.":
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/13118380_1.jpg

"The entire universe ceases to exist. All energy is gone. There are no witnesses alive, no one to tell the tale.":
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13118373_2.jpg

Heck, even purely conceptual beings, like Death, cannot withstand entropy in DC:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/13156986_2.jpg

...If that isn't equivalent to Marvel's nullification, then I don't know what is.

That said, it had already been established in prior issues of GL that the particular version of Krona from JLA/Avengers was the literal embodiment of entropy itself-- that's why he was still able to erase whole universes AND absorb the energies of said universes during the crossover. Hence my opinion: Krona=entropy=UN>Abraxas.

JakeTheBank
Krona. Not close.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Galan007

Marvel's personification of Entropy needed help(in the form of
Genis) to kill/erase Eternity.

DC's version of entropy, on the other hand, is a destructive force that, when unleashed, erases time/space/matter/energy/concepts all by its lonesome...

...If that isn't equivalent to Marvel's nullification, then I don't know what is.
Hey there, I was never glorifying "Entropy" ...
I only added the facts concerning Marvel's version of said concept.

DC's version of "entropy" is "UN-like" ... yes I agree.

But, how was Krona defeated again?

And, how was Abraxas defeated?

abhilegend
Krona stomps.

operator616
krona probably destoryed more than just 2 universes:
In JLA #111 it was stated that krona destroyed many universes (obviously many doesn't indicate that it was just 2)

operator616
here's the scan:

http://i.imgur.com/rjTnaX9.jpg

Mr Master
^^ That scenario applies to Post-retcon Krona.

The Krona from JLA/Avengers destroyed/absorbed only Two realities.
(one universe from DC and one from Marvel)

Anything added/subtracted to Krona's history afterwards has nothing
to do with the character designated for the two-company cross-over.

Galan007
Originally posted by Mr Master
DC's version of "entropy" is "UN-like" ... yes I agree.

But, how was Krona defeated again?

And, how was Abraxas defeated? Cool beans. I only brought it up because Krona literally embodies entropy/nullification, and has used it to erase entire universes.

Krona was 'beaten' when he jumped straight into the energy backlash generated by all 12 of his items of power run amuck-- ultimately reverting him into a cosmic egg:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15892952/4.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15892953/5.jpg.html
ie. UN+CCU+IG+GL Battery+Spear of Destiny+etc. etc. etc. >> Krona.

Abraxas was destroyed by nullification/entropy.

Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ That scenario applies to Post-retcon Krona.

The Krona from JLA/Avengers destroyed/absorbed only Two realities.
(one universe from DC and one from Marvel)

Anything added/subtracted to Krona's history afterwards has nothing
to do with the character designated for the two-company cross-over. The events of JLA/Avengers was never retconned in DC. This fact was made clear shortly after the crossover ended.

"Months ago, the League battled extradimensional incursion and the reality warping threat of the mad Guardian Krona.":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15892955/Untitled-Scanned-02.jpg.html

The JLA have a gander at the Krona-egg:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15892957/Untitled-Scanned-05.jpg.html

Additionally, the CSA were able to ascertain knowledge that their universe(the anti-matter universe) had been destroyed by Krona only months prior:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15892956/Untitled-Scanned-03.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15893298/Untitled-Scanned-04.jpg.html

And as you recall, the AMU was among the universes we saw Krona destroy during the crossover itself:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15893295/ja-01-04.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15893297/ja-01-05.jpg.html

The events of JLA/Avengers was also recalled during a more recent retelling of Krona's origin:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15892949/1.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15892950/2.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15892951/3.jpg.html


So yeah, the events of JLA/Avengers was never retconned in DC. The scan operator616 posted is merely DC's way of informing readers as to the full extent of damage caused by Krona:
http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/15893298_Untitled-Scanned-04.jpg

And imo, the above statement coincides with the summary page from JLA/Avengers #3: "Krona's investigations tear apart the fabric of universes, destroying them... Krona wanders the multiverse, leaving destruction in his path.":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15893330/avgrsjla-03-01.jpg.html

The separate statements: "multiversal destruction" and "many universes" imply that Krona had destroyed far more than a scant two universes. However, I won't argue for him destroying more than two universes, because we didn't see it happen on panel. Either way, he's still empowered by entropy/nullification, AND possesses the power of no less than two complete universes.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Galan007

Cool beans. I only brought it up because Krona literally
embodies entropy/nullification, and has used it to erase entire universes.

Krona was 'beaten' when he jumped straight into the energy
backlash generated by all 12 of his items of power run amuck--
ultimately reverting him into a cosmic egg:

ie. UN+CCU+IG+GL Battery+Spear of Destiny+etc. etc. etc. >> Krona.

Abraxas was destroyed by nullification/entropy.
Cool. Abraxas was banished by remaking the Multiverse though,
and he was Never destroyed.
It's either that, or the Multiverse was remade by banishing Abraxas.

That aside, I know how Krona was defeated,
I'd like to say great it took the UN and IG plus other comedy to stop him,
but the thing is, nor the UN or IG were the "real" UN or IG in that story.
Because the IG alone could've accomplished what Krona couldn't,
which was to bound Eternity and Kismet.
Which is nothing to the Multiversal Space-Time Continuum that feared
and could do nothing against Abraxas.

Just sayin ...

In JLA/Avengers Eternity/Kismet share the Same Multiverse. no expression
Originally posted by Galan007

The events of JLA/Avengers was never retconned in DC. This
fact was made clear shortly after the crossover ended.
"Months ago, the League battled extradimensional
incursion and the reality warping threat of the mad Guardian
Krona.":
The JLA have a gander at the Krona-egg:
Additionally, the CSA were able to ascertain knowledge that their
universe(the anti-matter universe) had been destroyed by Krona
only months prior:
And as you recall, the AMU was among the universes we saw Krona
destroy during the crossover itself:
The events of JLA/Avengers was also recalled during a more recent
retelling of Krona's origin:
So yeah, the events of JLA/Avengers was never retconned in DC.
The scan operator616 posted is merely DC's
way of informing readers as to the full extent of damage caused by Krona:

And imo, the above statement coincides with the summary page
from JLA/Avengers #3: "Krona's investigations tear apart the
fabric of universes, destroying them... Krona wanders the
multiverse, leaving destruction in his path.":

The separate statements: "multiversal destruction" and "many
universes" imply that Krona had destroyed far more than a scant
two universes. However, I won't argue for him destroying more
than two universes, because we didn't see it happen on panel.
Either way, he's still empowered by entropy/nullification, AND
possesses the power of no less than two complete universes.
Nice and I agree. But that all pertains to the DC side.
Events withIN the "Cross-over" should stay therein.

I also disagree the "multiversal destruction" line which actually reads:
"Krona wanders the multiverse, leaving destruction in his path"
suggests destruction across the multiverse shared by DC/Marvel.
It's literally referring to the Two universes that were destroyed.

Cause like we both know and agree, that's all that was shown,
and directly referenced in other inside Cover pages.

btw. I hate this cross-over, so I don't mind slipping away from this debate. stick out tongue

Galan007
Originally posted by Mr Master
Cool. Abraxas was banished by remaking the Multiverse though,
and he was Never destroyed.
It's either that, or the Multiverse was remade by banishing Abraxas. Somewhat disagree here. The multiverse wasn't destroyed to defeat Abraxas himself. Reed flat-out told us why he destroyed it:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15893783/FF049_32.jpg.html
Reed: "In order to realign all that is, we needed to end all that was."

Or in layman's terms: "In order to fix the damage Abraxas caused, we had to destroy all reality." As you know, nullification is nullification-- all that changes is scope, not power. Point: Reed could have nullified Abraxas alone, but nullifying just Abraxas would not have fixed the damage he caused to the rest of reality... That's why the scope of nullification had to be changed to a grander scale.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That aside, I know how Krona was defeated,
I'd like to say great it took the UN and IG plus other comedy to stop him,
but the thing is, nor the UN or IG were the "real" UN or IG in that story.
Because the IG alone could've accomplished what Krona couldn't,
which was to bound Eternity and Kismet.
Which is nothing to the Multiversal Space-Time Continuum that feared
and could do nothing against Abraxas. As the crossover itself hinted at, and as we now know for sure based on current Marvel canon: all IGs and UNs are created equal. big grin

On a more serious note, my only point is that Krona=entropy=nullification... And nullification>Abraxas. /shrug

Originally posted by Mr Master
btw. I hate this cross-over, so I don't mind slipping away from this debate. stick out tongue thumb up

Branlor Swift
Gay El Gay/Avengers beat Grandmaster with the IG...

Mr Master
^^ El Gay also needed the IG + UN and 10 other uber joints,
to bound an Eternity and its counterpart.
While the IG alone stomped prime Eternity in one move. laughing out loud no expression stick out tongue
Originally posted by Galan007

Somewhat disagree here. The multiverse wasn't destroyed to
defeat Abraxas himself. Reed flat-out told us why he destroyed it:

Reed: "In order to realign all that is, we needed to end all that was."

Or in layman's terms: "In order to fix the damage Abraxas caused,
we had to destroy all reality." As you know, nullification is
nullification-- all that changes is scope, not power. Point: Reed
could have nullified Abraxas alone, but nullifying just Abraxas would
not have fixed the damage he caused to the rest of reality... That's
why the scope of nullification had to be changed to a grander scale.
We've had this debate before. It can go either way.

Abraxas, and Abraxas alone was the cause behind multiversal upheaval,
nullify him, (rather banish him) and all his actions are undone.
Big G stays resurrected because if Abraxas is back withIN Eternity/Infinity,
then G never died.

Just sayin friend, according to the UN's actual capabilities and bio,
this is what it does, and only should do. This is actually sensible
considering the circumstances: Like Reed got nullified so how did he
press the button on "nothingness" to get "creation" back? On Panel
this is the manner it was described to remake Eternity once
nullified. The UN Handbook also states Reed hit Abraxas and
this caused reality to get fixed. (this suggests my view is very much viable)

Nevertheless,
either stance puts the UN remaking the Multiverse directly
or inadvertently via defeating the most powerful Concept after the LT.
(excluding Concepts: Eulogy and Expediency, which are aspects of TOAA)

Originally posted by Galan007

thumb up
thumb up

Galan007
Originally posted by Mr Master
We've had this debate before. It can go either way.

Abraxas, and Abraxas alone was the cause behind multiversal upheaval,
nullify him, (rather banish him) and all his actions are undone.
Big G stays resurrected because if Abraxas is back withIN Eternity/Infinity,
then G never died.

Just sayin friend, according to the UN's actual capabilities and bio,
this is what it does, and only should do. This is actually sensible
considering the circumstances: Like Reed got nullified so how did he
press the button on "nothingness" to get "creation" back? On Panel
this is the manner it was described to remake Eternity once
nullified. The UN Handbook also states Reed hit Abraxas and
this caused reality to get fixed. (this suggests my view is very much viable)

Nevertheless,
either stance puts the UN remaking the Multiverse directly
or inadvertently via defeating the most powerful Concept after the LT.
(excluding Concepts: Eulogy and Expediency, which are aspects of TOAA) I suppose it doesn't really matter what was destroyed-- either way you view it, Abraxas was still beaten by nullification in the end.

Mr Master
^^ Imo, both perspectives are feasible. (both backed by bios)

As for nullification ... I agree. But as far as we know,
it has to be nullifying energies that can erase not only matter,
but space-time (the abstract) as well.

(eg. just cause character x can erase Hulk doesn't mean he stomps Abraxas)

Galan007
Absolutely. That's why I keep mentioning entropy on Krona's behalf-- it can(and has) erased time, space, matter, energy... And even conceptual beings, like Death. If used against Abraxas, it would destroy/erase him, just like nullification did.

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