Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Can you guys put the list in order. In no particular order:

Nekron
White Entity
Micheal
Lucifer
Parallax ZH
COIE Monitor
Spectre
Radiant
Death (and all forms)
Source
Presence
The Great Evil Beast
Swamp Thing
Decreator
Mandrakk
Superman W/ Cosmic Armor
Overmonitor/Primal Monitor
Ultimator
Kismet
The Word
The Voice

And I think that is enough, so please lets see what the forum thinks

Wildstorm should be in this since they have beings that can effect the multiverse.

Kyle
Grifter

...

Who cares.

Presence and source may be the same thing ( i can post scans to prove it) so i think they come out on top, this is how it goes:

Presence/Source/GEB
Overmonitor
Lucifer/Michael
COIE anti monitor
Mandrakk/thought robot
spectre/word/voice/radiant
death (you should also include all the endless for example dream is easily multiversal since he created a device that can create universes instantly)
ZHP
decreator/nekron
Kismet

i didn't include ultimator since he doesn't exist, he's fictional.

the scans that follow are from spectre volume 3 issue 58:

first we have jehovah (the presence) being called as "the one above all"


http://i.imgur.com/Bcryx7r.jpg

then the source is adressed as being the one above all several times:

http://i.imgur.com/I74hBG4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EpD0WGj.jpg



ultimately when spectre seeks to know the nature of god he goes to the source who grants him the power of God/presence (indicating that they might be the same being otherwise the source wouldn't have the power to give spectre the power of the presence):

http://i.imgur.com/SfVKOxN.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/jbBT9TB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/iikvxT4.jpg

there you have it.

If someone requests to continue what happened with the spectre in the issue i'll post the rest, but for now, i posted only the relevant scans.

Also, you left a very important cosmic being, synnar, he created DC's multiverse (Dc now has several creation stories apparently)

@opertaor 616 what does spectre make of the african creation myth?

The A should be on the list. That being ate 5-d imps like candy and tanked mxys attacks.

1. Overmonitor/Primal Monitor
2. The Voice, Presence, The Great Evil Beast (All the same, In original Spectre GA tales he called the Presence the Voice and the Word before the name Presence was given him - same in Hellblazer. There are also a couple of instances where the presence has stated he two was created and mentioned the primal monitor)
3. Source
4. Micheal, Lucifer
5. COIE Monitor ( I presume you meant anti monitor???)
6. Spectre, The Word, White Entity, Mandrak
7. Swamp Thing, Superman W/ Cosmic Armor
8. Parallax ZH
9. No idea of the order of the rest.




there are more than just a few creation stories for DC. There's the whole fourth world Omnibus thing. Several themes played through spectre, Phantom Stranger, Deadman, and Doctor Fate stories. In once issue of the Inza Nelson Dr fate we see the Lords of Order talking about how their battle with the Lords of Chaos caused creation. This was supported by a Statement made by Phantom Stranger that the Presence created the Lords of Order and Chaos so that the balance achieved from the interplay of the two opposing forces would cause creation. In the Straus Fate run when the Lords of Order got Andrew Bennett to bring about Mahprahu ( something like that, well actually that word looks nothing like it but- basically the end of creation) we saw existence and then restart with an energy wave creating everything. This supported the Fourth World Omnibus that states the "god Wave" created the God's and the source. In Deadman we see references to Rama Kushna creating existence we also see Phantom Stranger State that Brand is a young spirit who has only seen part of the whole picture and that Rama is only only aspect of the Almighty.

Based on the various references as i see it
Primal Monitor = Writer (i.e One above all in Marvel)
Presence, GEB are aspects of the almighty- the omnipotent power within the DCU ( the Voice being just another name for the Presence and the one used prior to the name presence was coined)
Presence created the Word, Lucifer, Micheal, Spectre, the rest of the angels ( e.g. Phantom Stranger as per one of his four origins) and the Lords or Order and chaos.
The Battle between all the LOO and LOC caused the God wave ( in accordance with the Presence/Voices decree) which caused the Source that all other God's not listed to here get their power from.

There is also the entity the Presence mentioned in Lucifer, which is probably the writer as well,

Originally posted by 753
@opertaor 616 what does spectre make of the african creation myth?

they don't exist:

spectre says that all creation myths can't be true, and tells the origins of the pantheons and elder gods

http://i.imgur.com/xOM2Yr7.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/n3ZNMCT.jpg

in marvel however, apparently all creation stories are true:

thor #615:

http://i.imgur.com/9pB4Zx0.jpg

Originally posted by beatboks
1. Overmonitor/Primal Monitor
2. The Voice, Presence, The Great Evil Beast (All the same, In original Spectre GA tales he called the Presence the Voice and the Word before the name Presence was given him - same in Hellblazer. There are also a couple of instances where the presence has stated he two was created and mentioned the primal monitor)
3. Source
4. Micheal, Lucifer
5. COIE Monitor ( I presume you meant anti monitor???)
6. Spectre, The Word, White Entity, Mandrak
7. Swamp Thing, Superman W/ Cosmic Armor
8. Parallax ZH
9. No idea of the order of the rest.




there are more than just a few creation stories for DC. There's the whole fourth world Omnibus thing. Several themes played through spectre, Phantom Stranger, Deadman, and Doctor Fate stories. In once issue of the Inza Nelson Dr fate we see the Lords of Order talking about how their battle with the Lords of Chaos caused creation. This was supported by a Statement made by Phantom Stranger that the Presence created the Lords of Order and Chaos so that the balance achieved from the interplay of the two opposing forces would cause creation. In the Straus Fate run when the Lords of Order got Andrew Bennett to bring about Mahprahu ( something like that, well actually that word looks nothing like it but- basically the end of creation) we saw existence and then restart with an energy wave creating everything. This supported the Fourth World Omnibus that states the "god Wave" created the God's and the source. In Deadman we see references to Rama Kushna creating existence we also see Phantom Stranger State that Brand is a young spirit who has only seen part of the whole picture and that Rama is only only aspect of the Almighty.

Based on the various references as i see it
Primal Monitor = Writer (i.e One above all in Marvel)
Presence, GEB are aspects of the almighty- the omnipotent power within the DCU ( the Voice being just another name for the Presence and the one used prior to the name presence was coined)
Presence created the Word, Lucifer, Micheal, Spectre, the rest of the angels ( e.g. Phantom Stranger as per one of his four origins) and the Lords or Order and chaos.
The Battle between all the LOO and LOC caused the God wave ( in accordance with the Presence/Voices decree) which caused the Source that all other God's not listed to here get their power from.

there are plenty of universal creation stories, i was talking about multiversal creation stories, which are very rare.
however, thank you for the information, i knew about rama but i didn't know she was that uber, ill probably check it out.

here's the synnar creation story:

it's from Rann/thanagar holy war issue #6:

http://i.imgur.com/h7LMF0F.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dGpGaa9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4KmTGaJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/WfBaiHC.jpg

unfortunately, i have to disagree here, grant morrison stated in an interview that the over monitor is the white page on which comics are drawn, and thought of it as God (which indicates that it isn't the writers):

here's the link:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2009/02/03/inside-the-mind-of-grant-morrison?page=2

read morrison's 6th answer.

notice that he refers to it as God or the source,

seriously though, presence, the source, primal monitor and the supreme one (i just posted the scans) are all stated to be TOAA(s), so it's hard to say who's the top, but i choose to believe that it's the presence since he's the most frequently mentioned as being the true God.

If it was God, why didn't it know the existence of the Multiverse?

Comic books' pseudo-secular take on Creation Myths, and approach at trying to resolve the simultaneous existence of different gods and pantheons and whatnot is pretty darn retarded imo.

Not to mention that to this day, I have never understood why the Hindu deities are usually depicted in parallel(and in Marvel's case inferior) to extinct pagans like Odin and Zeus. When, simply based on the fact that Hinduism is one of the 3 largest religions in the world, its supreme deities(Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva) should be depicted as peers to the Abrahamic God.

Originally posted by Golgo13
If it was God, why didn't it know the existence of the Multiverse?

it did know of the existence of the multiverse"

Superman Beyond issue #1:

it says that the monitor makes a concept to contain the flaw (which is the multiverse) it's just that the multiverse is utterly irrelevant (or infinitesimal) when compared to it.

http://i.imgur.com/CysJNIJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8MteVVE.jpg

My bad, I thought the PM sent a Monitor to investigate or something.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Comic books' pseudo-secular take on Creation Myths, and approach at trying to resolve the simultaneous existence of different gods and pantheons and whatnot is pretty darn retarded imo.

Not to mention that to this day, I have never understood why the Hindu deities are usually depicted in parallel(and in Marvel's case inferior) to extinct pagans like Odin and Zeus. When, simply based on the fact that Hinduism is one of the 3 largest religions in the world, its supreme deities(Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva) should be depicted as peers to the Abrahamic God.

i agree, hindu gods should be above other pantheons, however, in DC there are some impressive moments for them.

in the beginning of JLA #64 vishnu is sleeping and it is said if he wakes up he will signal the end of creation:

http://i.imgur.com/rIruEQp.jpg

now comes the interesting scan:

Spectre volume 3 issue #0:

Michael demiurgos is revelead to be kali in hindu religion (i know it's ****ed up but it's comics):

http://i.imgur.com/4dLkz8c.jpg

so this may indicate that there is one race of gods but known by different names throughout the religions.

Originally posted by ODG
^ Thumbnails, dude!

Yeah, the scans are very much appreciated, operator616, but please use thumbnail images instead of the full-sizers. Much less annoying.

Originally posted by operator616
i agree, hindu gods should be above other pantheons, however, in DC there are some impressive moments for them.

The Hindu god's did play a large part in the whole end of existence and rebirth in the Straus Fate run with Andrew Bennett. It was a Hindu temple and weapon needed to bring about the end. Nabu also referenced both the Hindu and Judo/Chrisian gods in his reference to the higher plan. Apparently his becoming mortal allowed him to see and become aware of things that most the LOO and LOC are closed to because of their narrow view and the need for them to act within certain previews. It opened his mind to the plans of the almighty and he served them ( part of that end involved him allowing himself to be destroyed and reborn as a new entity that he could usher in some new age of magic and purity or some such).

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Comic books' pseudo-secular take on Creation Myths, and approach at trying to resolve the simultaneous existence of different gods and pantheons and whatnot is pretty darn retarded imo. I was thinking "ballsy." I liked the old days, when comics stayed out of the 'Ultimate God' business, unless depicted like Marvel did, when the FF saw Him in His studio, drawing. Everything else tends to strike me as nigh-desperate one-upmanship, and if it's done too frequently, you get the Galactus effect (overexposure = reduced awe).

Originally posted by operator616
they don't exist:

spectre says that all creation myths can't be true, and tells the origins of the pantheons and elder gods

This is pretty much why I've adopted the model i spoke of. Looking at it that ways supports all statements made by all the various creation myths. One creation myth has the god wave, one speaks of Rama, one of the Presence etc etc. Since there are statements by those like PS admitting the presence had a hand in the creation of beings like the LOO and LOC ( without their knowledge) so that they in turn could cause creation the idea that their war caused the god wave which based on Zeus' own words in your scan supports all others ( and still answers the Spectre's question) all become correct it's just with the limited perspective of the one telling the tale.

I'm pretty sure in either Hellblaser of Lucifer Presence stated even he was created and referenced the primal monitor. Plus the recent appearance of Eclipso in JLA taking the power of the starheart ( after gaining Shade's help to possess Jade) and using it to cut the Presence off from his power by severing the link to the souls of Earth indicates pretty strongly that the Presence isn't the be all and end all in power. His power doesn't even extend over all the DC universe.

Originally posted by beatboks
This is pretty much why I've adopted the model i spoke of. Looking at it that ways supports all statements made by all the various creation myths. One creation myth has the god wave, one speaks of Rama, one of the Presence etc etc. Since there are statements by those like PS admitting the presence had a hand in the creation of beings like the LOO and LOC ( without their knowledge) so that they in turn could cause creation the idea that their war caused the god wave which based on Zeus' own words in your scan supports all others ( and still answers the Spectre's question) all become correct it's just with the limited perspective of the one telling the tale.

I'm pretty sure in either Hellblaser of Lucifer Presence stated even he was created and referenced the primal monitor. Plus the recent appearance of Eclipso in JLA taking the power of the starheart ( after gaining Shade's help to possess Jade) and using it to cut the Presence off from his power by severing the link to the souls of Earth indicates pretty strongly that the Presence isn't the be all and end all in power. His power doesn't even extend over all the DC universe.

the thing is , that each pantheon reinterprets the creation story in their own way, when in fact, there is only one true creation story, thus, making their creation stories mythical.

im assuming you are referring to lucifer #75 where presence said that he was shaped by forces external to him correct?

http://i.imgur.com/odEbG17.jpg

if you are, then it's certainly not the over monitor, since over monitor didn't appear until superman beyond when lucifer #75 was only written in 2006.

on a side note, i disliked presence's portrayal in that issue very much, because one of the most retarded things i ever heard is God merging with a being he himself created (lucifer) and transforming into a new being (taken from the same issue

http://i.imgur.com/C0KGrdx.jpg

can you give me a scan or an issue reference? because if it's just statements i don't tend to believe them.

in JLA paradise lost, asmodel tried to usurp the presence, and was so confident that he stated several times he was going to do it, even called him a weakling several times.
But when it comes to actually doing it, he failed miserably:

JLA paradise lost issue #3:


http://i.imgur.com/t0rQjjc.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KnJu0Sl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8M8ChD1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MiS1S84.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/T9eq2Og.jpg

notice that the presence didn't even appear on panel, he simply depowered asmodel and sent him into neron's realm.

another importand notification is Zauriel's statement, he says that
the presence is nowhere and everywhere, the rock beneath your feat and the air in your lungs, he's heaven and earth perhaps even hell itself.

this also proves that the presence has the power over all DCU.

And what is more ridiculous is that asmodel tried to usurp the presence only months after the events of jla paradise lost in day of judgment, of course to no avail.

sorry about the scans, i used links now.

Originally posted by operator616
on a side note, i disliked presence's portrayal in that issue very much, because one of the most retarded things i ever heard is God merging with a being he himself created (lucifer) and transforming into a new being (taken from the same issue

http://i.imgur.com/C0KGrdx.jpg

This is commonly known as the omnipotence paradox. Perhaps the most frequent example is "can God create a rock so big, even he can't move it?"

In this case, God created a being that even he couldn't fully understand. That's one of the factors that makes Lucifer such a unique character. I, for one, loved that part.

Originally posted by Cogito
This is commonly known as the omnipotence paradox. Perhaps the most frequent example is "can God create a rock so big, even he can't move it?"

In this case, God created a being that even he couldn't fully understand. That's one of the factors that makes Lucifer such a unique character. I, for one, loved that part.

it has nothing to do with the omnipotence paradox, God cannot be transformed into another being, it's God.......
although i don't really believe in the omnipotence paradox, God can create a rock that he can't move if he wills it to (meaning he puts a limit on himself)

that's actually not the case here.

taken from the same issue (lucifer #75):

http://i.imgur.com/cr0FbRm.jpg

lucifer himself states that the presence made him that way and he's only testing his own workmanship.

Originally posted by operator616
although i don't really believe in the omnipotence paradox, God can create a rock that he can't move if he wills it to (meaning he puts a limit on himself) I don't think you really understand the Omnipotence paradox.

It's not "Can God limit himself so that he cannot lift a rock?"
It's the "Can the limitless God, use his limitless power, to create something that he cannot lift?"

Originally posted by operator616
it has nothing to do with the omnipotence paradox, God cannot be transformed into another being, it's God.......
although i don't really believe in the omnipotence paradox, God can create a rock that he can't move if he wills it to (meaning he puts a limit on himself)

that's actually not the case here.

taken from the same issue (lucifer #75):

http://i.imgur.com/cr0FbRm.jpg

lucifer himself states that the presence made him that way and he's only testing his own workmanship.

Lucifer does say that, but the Presence's own words in the following panels would seem to suggest that's not the case

Lucifer
"What is my function then?"

God
"You escaped your function. That's exactly why I want to know you better."

I assume this is in relation to the Eclipso thng?? JLA issues 54 to 59

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2422903
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2422899
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2422899
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2422918

Originally posted by operator616
it's not logical to ask that if he can use limitless power to create something he cannot lift, since if he does manage to create something he cannot lift, then he would be using limited power since he cannot lift it. That's why it's called a paradox.

If he has omnipotence, he should be able do to anything, including creating something that he cannot lift, but if he does so, then he is not omnipotent.

Originally posted by Cogito
Lucifer does say that, but the Presence's own words in the following panels would seem to suggest that's not the case

Lucifer
"What is my function then?"

God
"You escaped your function. That's exactly why I want to know you better."

no, the presence came to lucifer so that he can fulfill his last function (transform into 2 new beings) and when lucifer says no, he says that the presence is only testing his own workmanship since he's the one that made him like that. Though another questions comes here, as to why does the presence even bother to ask lucifer? why not just do it?

beatboks: yes, thanks for the scans.

Originally posted by operator616
no, the presence came to lucifer so that he can fulfill his last function (transform into 2 new beings) and when lucifer says no, he says that the presence is only testing his own workmanship since he's the one that made him like that. Though another questions comes here, as to why does the presence even bother to ask lucifer? why not just do it?

beatboks: yes, thanks for the scans.

Combining was not Lucifer's last function. God said it himself, as I already quoted. Lucifer escaped his function. Ergo, no last function.

As for why the he asked Lucifer's permission... I don't know, because he's not a dick?

Originally posted by Cogito
Combining was not Lucifer's last function. God said it himself, as I already quoted. Lucifer escaped his function. Ergo, no last function.

As for why the he asked Lucifer's permission... I don't know, because he's not a dick?

it was lucifer's last function and when he refused, he escaped his function.

im guessing it's because of free will........or like you said, maybe since he's not a dick.

Originally posted by operator616
it was lucifer's last function and when he refused, he escaped his function.

im guessing it's because of free will........or like you said, maybe since he's not a dick.

Lucifer escaped his function much earlier, before creating his own multiverse in the Void.

Lucifer possessed infinite will-- the literal will of God himself. Even an omniscient/all-knowing being cannot fully comprehend something truly infinite-- if he/she could, then it was never truly 'infinite' to begin with. Call it a paradox if it makes you feel better.

That said, Yahweh felt that the only way he could ever grasp the infinite power of will he'd vested in Lucifer was to merge with him. Simple.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lucifer possessed infinite will-- the literal will of God himself. That said, even an omniscient/all-knowing being cannot fully comprehend something truly infinite-- if he/she could, then it was never truly 'infinite' to begin with. Call it a paradox if it makes you feel better.

That said, Yahweh felt that the only way he could ever grasp the infinite power of will he'd vested in Lucifer was to merge with him. Simple.

Indeed, Lucifer is or was an aspect of God from the beginning.

Originally posted by Cogito
Lucifer escaped his function much earlier, before creating his own multiverse in the Void.

when he spoke to death of the endless (#26) he said that it wasn't of his own choosing. and he escaped his function even before he created the multiverse, when he rebelled against God, but that wasn't my point, regardless of when he escaped his function, he stated that this is how yahweh made him, he made him to say no, he made him to escape his function which is why yahweh said that he already escaped his function.

Originally posted by operator616
when he spoke to death of the endless (#26) he said that it wasn't of his own choosing. and he escaped his function even before he created the multiverse, when he rebelled against God, but that wasn't my point, regardless of when he escaped his function, he stated that this is how yahweh made him, he made him to say no, he made him to escape his function which is why yahweh said that he already escaped his function.

You're not making any sense. God made him to escape his function? No, not specifically, otherwise escaping his function would in fact be in line with his function. If God made him to escape his function, then not escaping his function would be escaping his function. You follow?

Yeah. Paradoxes.

Originally posted by Galan007


That said, Yahweh felt that the only way he could ever grasp the infinite power of will he'd vested in Lucifer was to merge with him. Simple.

there wasn't any mention of that, presence came to exchange memories and experiences and become two separate beings (not merge) each possessing both (of lucifer's and presence's) memories/experiences

http://i.imgur.com/uyKDpks.jpg

Originally posted by operator616
there wasn't any mention of that, presence came to exchange memories and experiences and become two separate beings (not merge) each possessing both (of lucifer's and presence's) memories/experiences

http://i.imgur.com/uyKDpks.jpg

He did indeed say it.

What is Lucifer? Lucifer is the embodiment of God's infinite will, just as Michael is the embodiment of God's infinite power.

And so when God said he wanted to understand Lucifer, he was saying he wanted to understand his own infinite will.

Originally posted by Cogito
You're not making any sense. God made him to escape his function? No, not specifically, otherwise escaping his function would in fact be in line with his function. If God made him to escape his function, then not escaping his function would be escaping his function. You follow?

Yeah. Paradoxes.

what im saying is that lucifer says that the presence made him the way he is, to say no, and by saying no isn't he escaping his function?

but yeah, i get your point, if yahweh made him to escape his function then that's still part of the function that the presence planned since he made it that way.

yes it is a contradiction.

Originally posted by operator616
what im saying is that lucifer says that the presence made him the way he is, to say no, and by saying no isn't he escaping his function?


No?

Lucifer already escaped his function much earlier. I don't see why you want him to continue to escape at the end, when he already did.

Originally posted by Cogito
He did indeed say it.

What is Lucifer? Lucifer is the embodiment of God's infinite will, just as Michael is the embodiment of God's infinite power.

And so when God said he wanted to understand Lucifer, he was saying he wanted to understand his own infinite will. It cannot be said any better(or simpler.)

Originally posted by Cogito
No?

Lucifer already escaped his function much earlier. I don't see why you want him to continue to escape at the end, when he already did.

that was a rhetorical question.....

you're not quite getting my point, im not even disagreeing with you.

i already agreed that there's a paradox there, since lucifer said that he always was the one who said no , and yet presence was the one who made him escape the function.
So basically like you said in your previous post, escaping his function would be in line with his function.

Originally posted by operator616
the thing is , that each pantheon reinterprets the creation story in their own way, when in fact, there is only one true creation story, thus, making their creation stories mythical.

im assuming you are referring to lucifer #75 where presence said that he was shaped by forces external to him correct?

http://i.imgur.com/odEbG17.jpg



but that's the nature of all scentient beings to see things and interperate them from their perspective. my father has a saying that I've always liked " there are three sides to every story, his, hers, and the truth. the truth is always somewhere in the middle because he will always see it his way and she will always see it her way". that's why at a crime scene police can get a dozen diferent discriptions of an assailant. often the perspective of the individual " seeing" the event can color or alter the their perception if it. For example when we have been through something that scared us greatly we will often remember the incident a s darker, larger or more imposing.

yeah that was the scan/ issue I was thinking of. Don't know why I thought it refered to Primal monitor. must be taking someone elses perspective presented in a debate as using that as evidence that Primal monitor created/ "shaped" Presence.

Originally posted by operator616
So basically like you said in your previous post, escaping his function would be in line with his function.

Except I said that wasn't his function...

Whatever.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lucifer possessed infinite will-- the literal will of God himself. Even an omniscient/all-knowing being cannot fully comprehend something truly infinite-- if he/she could, then it was never truly 'infinite' to begin with. Call it a paradox if it makes you feel better.

That said, Yahweh felt that the only way he could ever grasp the infinite power of will he'd vested in Lucifer was to merge with him. Simple.
Nope. A truly omniscient being would be the only type of being capable of comprehending any form of infinity. Irrespective of whether said infinity is quantitative or qualitative in nature. To say otherwise borders on illogic and baloney.

That said, I always felt that Yahweh was quite an incompetent Supreme Being, the way Carey portrayed him in the Lucifer series.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Nope. Yeah. It's the same paradox that would arise if you were to ask: "Can God create a math problem so complex that he cannot solve it?"

Yahweh vested a will in Lucifer equal to his own-- infinite will. A will so great, in fact, that Yahweh actually succeeded in creating the aforementioned paradox-- he created a being that not even he could comprehend.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah. It's the same paradox that would arise if you were to ask: "Can God create a math problem so complex that he cannot solve it?"

Yahweh vested a will in Lucifer equal to his own-- infinite will. A will so great, in fact, that Yahweh actually succeeded in creating the aforementioned paradox-- he created a being that not even he could comprehend.
That is why philosophers created the concept of the "Essential Omnipotent" and the "Accidental Omnipotent". The Omnipotence Paradox is a logic based constraint put on God's ability, a constraint that the "Accidental Omnipotent" would be fallible to. I believe a similar standard is applicable to omniscience and omnipresence as well.

If Yahweh lacked the ability to create someone like Lucifer with a will equal to his own, then that would still imply that there is a limit to his power and intellectual capabilities. The "Accidental" God paradigm is being applied here. An "Essential" God would not have such constraints.

For the purposes of this discussion we are talking about an "Essential Omnipotent"-- we are talking about the God. This isn't some random 'flavor of the week' character who gained momentary godhood in Marvel or DC. In the comic world, the God is as high on the 'omnipotence scale' as a character can possibly be.

That said, the God succeeded in creating a paradox-- he created a being that not even he could fully comprehend(ie. Lucifer.) How did God do this? Because he vested in Lucifer his own infinite will, and an entirely separate sentience.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah. It's the same paradox that would arise if you were to ask: "Can God create a math problem so complex that he cannot solve it?"

if he's omnipotent, he can both make a problem too difficult for him to solve and then solve it.

Originally posted by 753
if he's omnipotent, he can both make a problem too difficult for him to solve and then solve it.

He had a way to solve it. It was merging with Lucifer, but he asked politely for permission beforehand and was denied.

im not quite understanding why yahweh couldn't grasp the concept of infinite if he himself is infinite and eternal

http://i.imgur.com/R5nBS5T.jpg

furthermore, the concept of accidental omnipotence doesn't apply on the presence since the presence has always been omnipotent, this concept would apply on someone like Thanos when he recieved the power of the heart of the infinite.

Beatboks: Point taken.

Originally posted by operator616
im not quite understanding why yahweh couldn't grasp the concept of infinite if he himself is infinite and eternal

http://i.imgur.com/R5nBS5T.jpg

furthermore, the concept of accidental omnipotence doesn't apply on the presence since the presence has always been omnipotent, this concept would apply on someone like Thanos when he recieved the power of the heart of the infinite.

Beatboks: Point taken.

Originally posted by Cogito
He had a way to solve it. It was merging with Lucifer, but he asked politely for permission beforehand and was denied.

Originally posted by Cogito
He had a way to solve it. It was merging with Lucifer, but he asked politely for permission beforehand and was denied. sure, but he could take lucifer by force, could he not?

Only because i find this discussion interesting - so going back to op, what would the ranking be according to all of u?

^agreed

1. Presence/GEB
2. Over monitor
3. the Source
4. Mxy
4. Synnar the demiurge
5. Lucifer/Michael
6. Pandora
7. Miracle Machine
8. COIE anti monitor
9. 5th dimensional imps/the cathexis
10. the endless/CA superman/mandrakk


that's not exactly accurate since it's off the top of my head, im interested in hearing other's opinions.

Wally the God Boy.

BTW, you forgot the Quantum Mechanics. They're race trapped the 5-D Imps planet.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y82/dailyburn/jlahl02.jpg

^good one. If you know anyone more feel free to contribute.

another extremely powerful race in DC are the trans:

JLA/spectre soul war #1:

spectre understands that they're dealing with something that doesn't exist on a physical level, it exists on a higher frequency, beyond time and space:

http://i.imgur.com/xBcUSqq.jpg


JLA/Spectre soul war #2:

then the JLA and spectre travel to the universe of consciousness (imaginal realm), just when they arrive their mere presence in this universe overwhelms them, even the spectre:

http://i.imgur.com/g0csIMe.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/uhUcJkO.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/b12qW17.jpg

then they realize that the trans are actually the entire cosmos itself:

http://i.imgur.com/8GTC4eB.jpg

batman says that the trans fill his lungs with every breath, with every thought they choke his mind:

http://i.imgur.com/oJHioZE.jpg

then the totality of trans appears:

http://i.imgur.com/rMK2rAD.jpg

in the next scan we see the spectre imprisoned without any effort from the trans:

http://i.imgur.com/EBqmgMp.jpg

in the end batman, who was used as a plot device in this story arc, saving the league and the spectre more than once, managed to free the spectre, and along with MM they managed to repel the trans, notice that the trans say that they exist in all time and beyond time simultaneously, and that they already conquered the world in a distand future:

http://imgur.com/uZyJ2aX

Originally posted by 753
sure, but he could take lucifer by force, could he not? I like the way you think.

Just wanted to point out that, DC has many versions of the Supreme Being which differ by author. Overmonitor and the Presence are the same. They are view as God by their respective authors.

Kyle is the one true God.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Just wanted to point out that, DC has many versions of the Supreme Being which differ by author. Overmonitor and the Presence are the same. They are view as God by their respective authors.

true, and as i posted in page 1 the source is also mentioned to be the one above all and was used interchangeably with God.

Originally posted by operator616
^good one. If you know anyone more feel free to contribute.

another extremely powerful race in DC are the trans:

JLA/spectre soul war #1:

spectre understands that they're dealing with something that doesn't exist on a physical level, it exists on a higher frequency, beyond time and space:

http://i.imgur.com/xBcUSqq.jpg


JLA/Spectre soul war #2:

then the JLA and spectre travel to the universe of consciousness (imaginal realm), just when they arrive their mere presence in this universe overwhelms them, even the spectre:

http://i.imgur.com/g0csIMe.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/uhUcJkO.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/b12qW17.jpg

then they realize that the trans are actually the entire cosmos itself:

http://i.imgur.com/8GTC4eB.jpg

batman says that the trans fill his lungs with every breath, with every thought they choke his mind:

http://i.imgur.com/oJHioZE.jpg

then the totality of trans appears:

http://i.imgur.com/rMK2rAD.jpg

in the next scan we see the spectre imprisoned without any effort from the trans:

http://i.imgur.com/EBqmgMp.jpg

in the end batman, who was used as a plot device in this story arc, saving the league and the spectre more than once, managed to free the spectre, and along with MM they managed to repel the trans, notice that the trans say that they exist in all time and beyond time simultaneously, and that they already conquered the world in a distand future:

http://imgur.com/uZyJ2aX

I didn't know the Trans existed. What about the Overseers? A race of near omnipotent beings. One Overseer created the Adjuicator, who can destroy a universe with just a shrug of his shoulders. Apparently he became the judge of the Multiverse for a short time.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/Adj_zps721d259d.jpg

Rama Kushna deserves a mention.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/RK_zps61ec31ce.jpg

overseers seem uber, i'll check it out.

in the meantime, ill post uber feats for dream of the endless.

Sanman volume 2 issue 5:

it's stated the ruby (materioptikon) can turn dreams into matter:

http://i.imgur.com/9Vkaxga.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1x5dcTJ.png
http://i.imgur.com/nAOXWq3.jpg

Sandman volume 2 issue 7:

Dream explains that he was the one who created the ruby (materioptikon) from the fabric of his being and that it is powered by his spirit:

http://i.imgur.com/ixBN1tH.png
http://i.imgur.com/EpZIh6e.png

doctor destiny took control of the ruby (it was with him since issue 4), and now, by destroying it he thought that he'd kill dream:

http://i.imgur.com/gDfkJNa.png

where in fact he only released the power to make dream stronger, dream explains that he has put a good amount of his power in this ruby:

http://i.imgur.com/lHzk6Mn.png
http://i.imgur.com/JXm4KZ1.png

now, this is only proof that the materioptikon is part of dream's power, in my second post im going to show feats for the materioptikon creating infinite universes.

continuing from my previous post, now comes the uber feats

the following scans are from JLA: classified 4th parallel

to summarize the arc, the red king has taken control of the materioptikon and through it he was able to create infinite versions of himself in infinite realities hoping that one version of himself would rule his reality/world:

JLA classified #33

here, it is explained that red king ran infinite versions of himself through infinite possibilities, and only three are left

http://i.imgur.com/nzYdDnV.jpg

here the red king says that we have 3 realities running at once (confirming that each version of himself is in a separate reality):

http://i.imgur.com/oNHpofX.jpg

JLA classified #36

and if somehow this isn't enough proof, batman says that through the materioptikon red king was able to create a multiple realities in hopes that one of them would succeed to rule his world, and only 2 maybe 3 exist:

http://i.imgur.com/4yFm2qe.jpg

in the first page of the issue, it's stated that red king created infinite versions of himself and the ones that failed were destroyed and only 3 are left (proving that he created infinite universes/realities

http://i.imgur.com/YT97H6d.jpg

more emphasis on the materioptikon

JLA classified #32:

it' stated that all of existence is threatened by it:

http://i.imgur.com/0YZCNZY.jpg

it casually destroys a universe/possibility

http://i.imgur.com/ySIktyX.jpg

so there you have it, the materioptikon which isn't even dream's full power was able to instantly create infinite universes.

All of the endless are pretty much on the same level, so they're an extremely powerful race.

Originally posted by operator616
continuing from my previous post, now comes the uber feats

the following scans are from JLA: classified 4th parallel

to summarize the arc, the red king has taken control of the materioptikon and through it he was able to create infinite versions of himself in infinite realities hoping that one version of himself would rule his reality/world:

JLA classified #33

here, it is explained that red king ran infinite versions of himself through infinite possibilities, and only three are left

http://i.imgur.com/nzYdDnV.jpg

here the red king says that we have 3 realities running at once (confirming that each version of himself is in a separate reality):

http://i.imgur.com/oNHpofX.jpg

JLA classified #36

and if somehow this isn't enough proof, batman says that through the materioptikon red king was able to create a multiple realities in hopes that one of them would succeed to rule his world, and only 2 maybe 3 exist:

http://i.imgur.com/4yFm2qe.jpg

in the first page of the issue, it's stated that red king created infinite versions of himself and the ones that failed were destroyed and only 3 are left (proving that he created infinite universes/realities

http://i.imgur.com/YT97H6d.jpg

more emphasis on the materioptikon

JLA classified #32:

it' stated that all of existence is threatened by it:

http://i.imgur.com/0YZCNZY.jpg

it casually destroys a universe/possibility

http://i.imgur.com/ySIktyX.jpg

so there you have it, the materioptikon which isn't even dream's full power was able to instantly create infinite universes.

All of the endless are pretty much on the same level, so they're an extremely powerful race.

Where do you rank Red King?

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/RK_zpse150f034.jpg

Massive reality Warper, Max Faraday should be mentioned. At his peak.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/MF_zpse0758812.jpg

not anywhere since all he did was through the power of the materioptikon (which is part of dream of the endless's power), so dream of the endless should take the credit to everything that the red king did.

^yes he along with solar should be high up on the list.

Originally posted by 753
sure, but he could take lucifer by force, could he not?
He would have been unsure of what the consequences of such an action would be. Because as it happens, it had become crystal clear by that point that Lucifer had escaped Gods plan.

Originally posted by operator616
not anywhere since all he did was through the power of the materioptikon (which is part of dream of the endless's power), so dream of the endless should take the credit to everything that the red king did.

^yes he along with solar should be high up on the list.

Solar isn't apart of the DCU, but Max is, since Wildstorm is apart of the DCU Multiverse.

Anyway, I am saying Red King WITH the Materioptkon. Where does he rank with that? Top 20?

God Swamp Thing is potentially on the top 10 list.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/GST_zps18e745c3.jpg

Originally posted by Golgo13
Solar isn't apart of the DCU, but Max is, since Wildstorm is apart of the DCU Multiverse.

Anyway, I am saying Red King WITH the Materioptkon. Where does he rank with that? Top 20?

you're right

perhaps, top 15 id say.

the god version of swamp thing hasn't done anything to suggest that he's high end multiversal.

What about the Ecruos? The enemy of the Source?

^they're all from the same race, imps or mites, same thing.

Bat-Mite is part of Mxy's own power.

Has the Presence been mentioned since the reboot

Originally posted by Galan007
Bat-Mite is part of Mxy's own power.

Well, what about the other Mites?

Originally posted by guy222
Has the Presence been mentioned since the reboot

Yes, his name is Bruce Wayne.

Originally posted by guy222
Has the Presence been mentioned since the reboot

he has, in the new 52 phantom stranger series, ill post the scans.

phatom stranger #5:

he speaks through a dog and says that he resides in everything and everyone:

http://i.imgur.com/qGln3ys.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rPwSrae.jpg

interestingly enough, pretty much the same thing was mentioned in JLA paradise lost #3 when asmodel tried to conquer the presence but failed (which i posted earlier in page 2):

http://i.imgur.com/KnJu0Sl.jpg

phantom stranger #7:

http://i.imgur.com/5CdDZWw.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007
Bat-Mite is part of Mxy's own power.

true dat, i assume you're referring to superman/batman #25.

Thanks for the scans I will read it. Morrison prolly mix crack, meth, oxy and mushrooms writing it

Originally posted by operator616
true dat, i assume you're referring to superman/batman #25. Ya. Pre-reboot, obviously.

Hats off to Operator

Originally posted by operator616
phatom stranger #5:

he speaks through a dog and says that he resides in everything and everyone:

http://i.imgur.com/qGln3ys.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rPwSrae.jpg

interestingly enough, pretty much the same thing was mentioned in JLA paradise lost #3 when asmodel tried to conquer the presence but failed (which i posted earlier in page 2):

http://i.imgur.com/KnJu0Sl.jpg

phantom stranger #7:

http://i.imgur.com/5CdDZWw.jpg

good stuff, bro.