Hercules VS Doc Samson

zopzop

Originally posted by leonidas
classic doc gets his sh!t pushed in, easily, by the immortal version of hercules. depowered herc--the one who battled hulk--would be a much closer contest, and herc would def take some of those. have no idea who samson unleashed is, but i'd need to see some damn uber feats to think he could beat herc at his best.
Classic Doc Samson has held his own vs Savage Hulk (he ultimately lost but still). Classic Doc Samson was giving Wonderman, Herc, Namor AND Iron man a hard time and he threw them off him like ragdolls.

So no, he wouldn't get his sh|t pushed in vs Immortal Herc. He'd lose but he'd give Herc hell.

Doc Samson Unleashed would definitely take some wins vs Immortal Herc.

leonidas

lol seriously? samson didn't give anyone a 'hard time' in that arc. they weren't even trying to go at him! he was trying to break them up. no one cared about samson. that showing was less than meaningless. hulk has crushed samson on multiple occasions, so again, a decent showing here or there is meaningless. samson has several pi$$ poor showings to go along with the odd decent showing he has. he is a low cl100 who had his head handed to him by ben grimm. he would make herc work for a couple of fights. the rest, a pi$$ed off herc would literally destroy him, as would any true uber cl100 character. samson wouldn't take even 1/10.

still haven't seen any feats from this uber samson you're talking about.

pym-ftw

Herc stomps, he is stronger, faster, and more skilled...

zopzop

Originally posted by leonidas
lol seriously? samson didn't give anyone a 'hard time' in that arc. they weren't even trying to go at him! he was trying to break them up. no one cared about samson. that showing was less than meaningless. hulk has crushed samson on multiple occasions, so again, a decent showing here or there is meaningless. samson has several pi$$ poor showings to go along with the odd decent showing he has. he is a low cl100 who had his head handed to him by ben grimm. he would make herc work for a couple of fights. the rest, a pi$$ed off herc would literally destroy him, as would any true uber cl100 character. samson wouldn't take even 1/10.

That same Mindless Hulk that took the ENTIRE roster of West And East Coast Avengers (which included Herc) to take down was stalemated for HOURS by Doc Samson.

When did Grimm beat Samson?

Page 3 of Samson's respect thread :
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t399059.html

leonidas

Originally posted by zopzop

That same Mindless Hulk that took the ENTIRE roster of West And East Coast Avengers (which included Herc) to take down was stalemated for HOURS by Doc Samson.

that hulk got continually stronger until.....he didn't, right near the end. and herc was going 1on1 with him for prolonged lengths of time as well.

in grimm's own short-lived book. samson is low cl100. at best. unless he received some amp i'm unaware of.

confused

i see nothing there except him getting rag dolled by a warrior hulk, then having a flashback to him getting rag dolled by normal, savage hulk. which was sort of the norm. i'm not sure if you're seriously overestimating samson, or lowballing herc. this ends with herc 10/10 with only the beating varying in degree. from rag doll-esque to perhaps an average scrap.

lol damn, even in his own respect thread a battle of him vs RHINO is there. and in that fight he couldn't even ko RHINO! lol he actually feared for his life in that fight. c'mon zop, you gotta be sh!ttin me here....

zopzop

Originally posted by leonidas
that hulk got continually stronger until.....he didn't, right near the end. and herc was going 1on1 with him for prolonged lengths of time as well.
Wrong. That Hulk hit his limit vs Doc Samson and even got weaker! The Avengers Teams were facing off against a weakened and weakening Hulk (Doc even says this to Captain America when they were discussing whether they should kill Hulk or capture him) and even then it took two ENTIRE TEAMS of them to down him.

Doc stalemated Mindless Hulk for HOURS and caused him to hit his limit and WEAKEN by the time the Avengers showed up.

Sorry but I need to see this in context. Scan or at least issue? I need to see a pic of Samson (because his hair length determines his strength. This was stated on panel and confirmed in the handbooks).

Rag Dolled? He killed a "Warrior Hulk" that had been trained in various forms of martial arts. He also stated that he wasn't in his right mind when fighting Hulk in the past and he learned his lesson, then he proceeds to wreck the Warrior Hulk.

leonidas

Originally posted by zopzop

Wrong. That Hulk hit his limit vs Doc Samson and even got weaker! The Avengers Teams were facing off against a weakened and weakening Hulk (Doc even says this to Captain America when they were discussing whether they should kill Hulk or capture him) and even then it took two ENTIRE TEAMS of them to down him.

hulk was weakening by the end. where does it say hulk reached a limit against samson again...? and regardless, it doesn't matter. one high feat doesn't a career make. he's been crushed hulk hulk, many times. hell, even ironman knows he has only a fraction of hulk's strength--he also admits that he only tossed those guys aside because they were winded from their fight. and again, no one even wanted to fight samson. you say 2 entire teams like it means something. there were only a couple guys who mattered in that fight at all, the rest were fodder and tried staying out of the way.

it was also a shared feat as he had the hulkbuster team backing him up. he was basically a punching bag the second part of that fight. decent durability feat, but....so what? you're really trying to take his one good feat to turn him into something he wasn't. at all. he is that rhino/thing level guy. maybe stronger, but less skilled, far less warrior mentality. he stands no chance here, or against any high cl100 foe.

well....good luck with that. i do think samson was controlled though in that fight, i'd have to recheck. not that it would matter. ben would beat him regardless. open a thread and find opinions for yourself.

he did win ultimately, but was getting slaughtered. he went nuts and won. so, what feats did this warrior hulk have to gauge by again? it's in character for him to fight like a thinking guy. that's why he left the hero game to begin with. if he goes all 'mad man' he is still severely out strengthed, outskilled and also, very likely out berserkered. not sure how you even begin to justify taking a single showing to mean anything. especially when you're uber showing is a shared feat to begin with.

zopzop

Originally posted by leonidas
hulk was weakening by the end. where does it say hulk reached a limit against samson again...? and regardless, it doesn't matter. one high feat doesn't a career make. he's been crushed hulk hulk, many times. hell, even ironman knows he has only a fraction of hulk's strength--he also admits that he only tossed those guys aside because they were winded from their fight. and again, no one even wanted to fight samson. you say 2 entire teams like it means something. there were only a couple guys who mattered in that fight at all, the rest were fodder and tried staying out of the way.

Winded eh? Well Samson was nursing a BROKEN HAND. Which is more of a handicap? Not to mention there were FOUR of them vs only him. Hercules clocked him and Samson was still standing, despite the fact that he had Iron Man and Simon and Namor restraining him while he ate that punch from Herc.

And here it is :
http://s11.postimg.org/70h42lybz/weaken.jpg
He hit his peak fighting Samson and got weaker, yet it took two entire TEAMS of Avengers (Herc was included) PLUS She Hulk to down Hulk.

He was stalemating him for 6 hours before the Hulkbusters showed up. The fight I'm referring to took place in IH 317.

So basically this means nothing since we don't have the fight in context. Then why bring it up?

No, he was overthinking the fight. When he put his foot down, Warrior Hulk died.

EDIT to make sure we talking about the same fight.

Mindset

Immortal Herc beats any Samson, shut up, zop.

leonidas

Originally posted by zopzop

Winded eh? Well Samson was nursing a BROKEN HAND. Which is more of a handicap? Not to mention there were FOUR of them vs only him. Hercules clocked him and Samson was still standing, despite the fact that he had Iron Man and Simon and Namor restraining him while he ate that punch from Herc.

lol

and? NO ONE WANTED TO FIGHT SAMSON. ANY of the 4 of them would whip samson's arse. seriously?

cool. he ALSO said that hulk wasn't even able to KILL him somehow. so he was weak even as he fought samson. whatever. the avengers were also trying to restrain hulk, not kill him. until wwh herc had NEVER been beaten by hulk. ever. samson has been crushed by hulk multiple times. hell, even in one of your scans the reporter brings up all his losses and that he hopes the hulkbusters will turn the tide.

thumb up

i looked up the fight and turns out it was NOT samson, it was actually she-hulk ben fought. so, yeah, forget about it. ben WOULD beat samson though....

and? feats for this nameless hulk?

i was gonna post herc feats and scrounge up some of samson's crappy a$$ showings, but.....i really can't be bothered getting worked up about this. frankly i'm stunned that you think a high meta guy can take herc out somehow, based on a showing against a no-name, one-off character, and a good endurance showing against hulk, but, whatever.

herc is FAR stronger, and he's never lost to hulk where samson has multiple times. herc>samson in every way.

herc 10/10

leonidas

Originally posted by Mindset
Immortal Herc beats any Samson, shut up, zop.

or this.

zopzop

Originally posted by leonidas
lol

and? NO ONE WANTED TO FIGHT SAMSON. ANY of the 4 of them would whip samson's arse. seriously?
Wrong. Hercules specifically broke off fighting the Hulk and jumped in when Namor/IM/Simon were fighting Samson. The three of them where restraining his arms and legs when Hercules got a clean punch to Samson's face. Not only was Samson NOT KOed he shrugged them off like rag dolls.

Yeah, he hit his limit and weakened fighting Samson. Also, Samson explained why he lost to the Hulk all those times when he was monologueing with himself fighting Warrior Hulk.

So you were wrong about Ben easily beating Samson and got no proof aside from your opinion. That's fine.

Yeah and I can post low showings of Hulk getting choked out by a snake and losing to Machine Man. Thor being knocked out by a bullet. Etc...But that doesn't prove anything does it?

ODG

Immortal Hercules stomps Doc Samson.

leonidas

Originally posted by zopzop

Yeah and I can post low showings of Hulk getting choked out by a snake and losing to Machine Man. Thor being knocked out by a bullet. Etc...But that doesn't prove anything does it?

lol

yeah, it does actually. IF most of their careers were spent getting ko'd by snakes and bullets.

you have ONE feat to point to and you want to use that feat to elevate DOC SAMSON to what, mid herald?? LOW herald?? yeah, bring that up the next time the tier threads are discussed and see how that goes. classic colossus? ben grim? rhino? (i'd give both peter and ben a solid majority over samson as well though, and we saw the trouble he had with....rhino....) those guys are in his league strength-wise. hercules is the guy who one shot ktfo's abomination. you backed yourself into a corner by taking this silly stance as if his one time, career high battle erases all his previous showings, and now, instead of cutting your losses you keep on. this is ridiculous even by your own, at times, less than stellar standards. this could almost be closed for spite.

L.O.L.

zopzop

Originally posted by leonidas
lol

yeah, it does actually. IF most of their careers were spent getting ko'd by snakes and bullets.

you have ONE feat to point to and you want to use that feat to elevate DOC SAMSON to what, mid herald?? LOW herald?? yeah, bring that up the next time the tier threads are discussed and see how that goes. classic colossus? ben grim? rhino? (i'd give both peter and ben a solid majority over samson as well though, and we saw the trouble he had with....rhino....) those guys are in his league strength-wise. hercules is the guy who one shot ktfo's abomination. you backed yourself into a corner by taking this silly stance as if his one time, career high battle erases all his previous showings, and now, instead of cutting your losses you keep on. this is ridiculous even by your own, at times, less than stellar standards. this could almost be closed for spite.

L.O.L.
So I've given you examples of Samson holding his own before being overwhelmed vs Savage Hulk (and much later explaining why he lost those fights) on multiple occasions, I give you examples of him tussling with powerful opponents and more than holding his own, I give you examples of why I believe Herc doesn't stomp Samson and all you got is "LOL"?

Fine, whatever. roll eyes (sarcastic)

psycho gundam

Originally posted by Mindset
shut up, zop. Originally posted by leonidas
this.

tkitna

I like Samson, but he's out of his league here.

Herc 10/10

Sin I AM

Hercules, Samson is outta his league

abhilegend

Herc stomps.

JakeTheBank

lol

Hercules 10/10

leonidas

Originally posted by zopzop
So I've given you examples of Samson holding his own before being overwhelmed vs Savage Hulk (and much later explaining why he lost those fights) on multiple occasions, I give you examples of him tussling with powerful opponents and more than holding his own, I give you examples of why I believe Herc doesn't stomp Samson and all you got is "LOL"?

Fine, whatever. roll eyes (sarcastic)

you blatantly highball then roll your eyes at me? lol

no, you've given ONE example of his best ever showing and one feat against an opponent who HAS no feats (other than to be beaten by samson.....odg probably has some cool latin name for that type of reasoning.)

thing has held his own better than samson against hulk. colossus has flat out done better. MORTAL herc has done as well! holding your own, putting up a fight, doesn't mean anything, especially regarding hulk who's strength is all over the place and against a person who, deep down, bruce actually cared a little bit about.

anyway, your blatant highballing aside, /thread

zopzop

Originally posted by leonidas
you blatantly highball then roll your eyes at me? lol

no, you've given ONE example of his best ever showing and one feat against an opponent who HAS no feats (other than to be beaten by samson.....odg probably has some cool latin name for that type of reasoning.)
Fail. I gave you multiple examples of Classic Samson holding his own vs Mindless Hulk for an extended period of time. The Unleashed Samson fight wasn't only meant to highlight his increased strength but also his mindset (which he explained why he lost to Savage Hulk all those times). Rulk even commented on how he was stronger.

Thing has usually had a TEAM with him when he took on the Hulk. Colossus didn't do jack and he had help from Kitty and Lockheed when he sucker attacked Hulk. At least Classic Samson's sucker punch laid Hulk the phuck out. When has mortal Herc done well vs Hulk? Excuse me if I don't trust your memory seeing how you were wrong about Thing/Samson fighting and Thing "owning" Samson.

Yes Hulk is all over the place. That's why the Classic Samson vs Hulk showings were important. Samson fought vs an enrage Savage and MINDLESS Hulk (you know the guy it took TWO TEAMS of Avengers PLUS She-Hulk to put down).

ODG

Sampson has lost to every single Hulk incarnation there is. Including getting his a$$ beat by Gray Hulk.

Immortal Hercules has stalemated Savage Hulk twice. Lasted longer against WWH than Doc did.

Not that hard.

Nibedicus

Herc via kick to the nuts.

zopzop

Originally posted by ODG
Sampson has lost to every single Hulk incarnation there is.
Those losses were explained by Samson, scans in the Respect Thread.

The same Gray Hulk that was taking on an entire Team of Avengers?

When was this?

Good for him, a high showing for Herc.

TheGodKiller

Originally posted by zopzop
Fail.
Is there anything which isn't "fail" in your mind?

ODG

Originally posted by zopzop
Those losses were explained by Samson, scans in the Respect Thread.

The same Gray Hulk that was taking on an entire Team of Avengers?

When was this?

Good for him, a high showing for Herc. Yes, Sampson got his a$$ beat by every Hulk incarnation and there are, indeed, scans showing thus.

Who hasn't?

In the two fights that they've had.

A higher showing than Doc Sampson. thumb up

zopzop

Originally posted by ODG
Yes, Sampson got his a$$ beat by every Hulk incarnation and there are, indeed, scans showing thus.
Yes and there was an explanation for that.

Herc?

Yes but which? I'm genuinely curious. The only times I can recall Herc facing off vs the Hulk is when he had a team backing him up. First time was during the Mindless Hulk arc and he had the Avengers with him, second time was during the Prof. Hulk era and again he had the Avengers with him (which included Sersi, Crystal, and Vision) and Hulk was being mind controlled by Mentallo.

I didn't dispute this. Just said it's a high showing for him.

abhilegend

Herc has fought hulk in TTA 79 and Hulk/Hercules: Unleashed.

ODG

Originally posted by zopzop
Yes and there was an explanation for that.

Herc?

Yes but which? I'm genuinely curious. The only times I can recall Herc facing off vs the Hulk is when he had a team backing him up. First time was during the Mindless Hulk arc and he had the Avengers with him, second time was during the Prof. Hulk era and again he had the Avengers with him (which included Sersi, Crystal, and Vision) and Hulk was being mind controlled by Mentallo.

I didn't dispute this. Just said it's a high showing for him. Because Sampson was outmatched every time, yes. And his near-death at the hands of some fodder Rulked-out soldier (that A-Bomb and Skaar were dealing with en masse) isn't improving his position.

You'd be wrong on that. I suppose your question mark proves you were only accidentally ignorant.

The first time they ever met in the 60s, and the other time when Savage Hulk accidentally invaded Olympus.

A higher showing than Doc Sampson managed, yes.

zopzop

Originally posted by ODG
Because Sampson was outmatched every time, yes. And his near-death at the hands of some fodder Rulked-out soldier (that A-Bomb and Skaar were dealing with en masse) isn't improving his position.
And the writer, through Samson's monologue with himself, explained those losses.

When did Herc fight the Avengers?

And here we go again. roll eyes (sarcastic)

ODG

Originally posted by zopzop
And the writer, through Samson's monologue with himself, explained those losses.

When did Herc fight the Avengers?

And here we go again. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Sampson's character statements don't change him getting his a$$ beat by every Hulk there ever was. Nor excuse his near-death at the hands of some fodder Rulked-out soldier.

If you're trying to convince me you know next to nothing about Hercules, you've succeeded. Hercules has fought two Avengers teams at different times.

And somehow it's not your fault. We get it.

zopzop

Originally posted by ODG
Sampson's character statements don't change him getting his a$$ beat by every Hulk there ever was. Nor excuse his near-death at the hands of some fodder Rulked-out soldier.
Actually, yes it does. That was the whole point of it.

Yes, I'm asking when and what was the lineup?

ODG

Originally posted by zopzop
Actually, yes it does. That was the whole point of it.

Yes, I'm asking when and what was the lineup? Character statements don't change that Doc Sampson has gotten his a$$ beat by every single Hulk there ever was. Not when those character statements are made while Doc Sampson was nearly beaten to death by a fodder Rulked-out soldier who himself was wracked with pain. I don't think you've thought this through at all.

And clearly you haven't read enough Hercules. It should have been obvious from the start how uninformed you are about him. My fault for assuming otherwise and extending a pointless conversation. And now that I think of it, he's actually fought the Avengers three times.

BUSTER1

Originally posted by zopzop

Those losses were explained by Samson, scans in the Respect Thread.

Just because Leonard tells himself, in an inner monologue, that he should've beaten the Hulk, it doesn't make it a fact. I could come up with a theory that I could beat Floyd Mayweather in a boxing fight, if I used a certain strategy. It won't alter the fact that, however I tried to fight him, I would be knocked out inside of 10 seconds.

SevenShackles

Not sure if this matters but I intended this to be long haired 'bad' doc Samson as in during all that Intelligencia mess. Long hair = more power so figured it was one of his stronger incarnations.

BUSTER1

Originally posted by SevenShackles
Not sure if this matters but I intended this to be long haired 'bad' doc Samson as in during all that Intelligencia mess. Long hair = more power so figured it was one of his stronger incarnations.

You are too right my friend, we need to get back on topic. In his evil "Samson" form Leonard is more powerful than his classic Doc Samson form. If Herc is in his Immortal from I reckon he still takes a majority though.

Sin I AM

Originally posted by SevenShackles
Not sure if this matters but I intended this to be long haired 'bad' doc Samson as in during all that Intelligencia mess. Long hair = more power so figured it was one of his stronger incarnations.

Wouldn't really matter, Samson has never really had any good showings his strength is his mind not his fists. I'd give him the nod over someone like Luke cage after a tough battle, but he'd lose the majority against she-hulk/thing. That's just his lot in life, lemme take that back I'd give cage the majority over him if its bendis cage...maybe he could beat warpath