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I know that Crispus got his ass handed to Mandrakk but in terms of feats, Crispus is by far the weakest incarnation in my opinion. Why? Because he struggled to put down the Butcher entity which has no solid feats at all, struggled against a normal Parallax Hal who did not have the various power amps that his Zero Hour version had, whom Corrigan indirectly beat with ease. Also failed to pass judgement on Nekron due to him lacking a soul, whereas Asmodel and Jordan easily curb stomped Neron, who had no soul as well.


Spectre (Corrigan) vs Mandrakk

Spectre (Jordan) vs Mandrakk

PIS is off.

nekron is not the same as neron

also which version of mandrakk are you using?

Mandrakk wins. I wouldn't say spite though

Originally posted by operator616
nekron is not the same as neron

also which version of mandrakk are you using?

I know that they are not the same. I just gave an example of Spectre's power working on someone who does not have a soul. Well I am using Rox Ogama Mandrakk. But you can add Dax Novu if you want.

Originally posted by SithLantern93
I know that they are not the same. I just gave an example of Spectre's power working on someone who does not have a soul. Well I am using Rox Ogama Mandrakk. But you can add Dax Novu if you want. Having a soul has no bearing on whether on nor Spectre can fight one.

Originally posted by SithLantern93
I know that they are not the same. I just gave an example of Spectre's power working on someone who does not have a soul. Well I am using Rox Ogama Mandrakk. But you can add Dax Novu if you want.

i see

can you specify when did hal and asmodel stomp neron?

the only time they "fought" (unless im missing something) was in day of judgment #5, when the spectre-force was choosing between asmodel, neron and hal, in which case it chose hal:

http://i.imgur.com/aB9IAqB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0UV8aD5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vSnImcF.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lXe9MQa.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lx3nYqF.jpg

also, the 2nd mandrakk doesn't have a lot feats to go by, he supposedly defeated spectre and radiant off panel, and we shouldn't ignore the events that happened to spectre in final crisis revelations which weakened him. and then this mandrakk got beaten by a couple of GLs.

Originally posted by operator616
i see

can you specify when did hal and asmodel stomp neron?

the only time they "fought" (unless im missing something) was in day of judgment #5, when the spectre-force was choosing between asmodel, neron and hal, in which case it chose hal:

http://i.imgur.com/aB9IAqB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0UV8aD5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vSnImcF.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lXe9MQa.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lx3nYqF.jpg

also, the 2nd mandrakk doesn't have a lot feats to go by, he supposedly defeated spectre and radiant off panel, and we shouldn't ignore the events that happened to spectre in final crisis revelations which weakened him. and then this mandrakk got beaten by a couple of GLs. Revelation didn't weaken him. If anything, it set hims power to the highest. He kinda reset the universe from the ANE. At the end of revelation, he was back to full power if not, a bit more

He did using the purified Spear of Destiny, not his own power. Besides it was also only the Earth that Crispus restored IIRC.

Originally posted by SithLantern93
He did using the purified Spear of Destiny, not his own power. Besides it was also only the Earth that Crispus restored IIRC. No. HE purified the universe. DS and Cain used Spectre as the medium to trasnfer the ALE throughout the universe. They used Wonderwoman/internet to do it globally.

it wasn't the universe, at least it didn't seem like it was.

the exact statements was, unmake creation, rebuild the world in darkseid's name:

that's what we get from the end of issue 4:

http://i.imgur.com/NF8MUmE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1pnFiom.jpg

however in the beginning of issue 5 we clearly see that only one world (earth) is affected and not the entire universe:

http://i.imgur.com/Npn11x4.jpg

as for spectre getting his power back, that's not what happened. in the end, the crispus was surprised that God allowed his son to be returned, which was an incentive for him to undo all the damage he has done, and he did it through the spear of destiny, nothing suggesting that he returned to full power, much less a bit more:

http://i.imgur.com/rplO8Qt.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/S47f5WM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/BBCw20Q.jpg

Originally posted by operator616
it wasn't the universe, at least it didn't seem like it was.

the exact statements was, unmake creation, rebuild the world in darkseid's name:

that's what we get from the end of issue 4:

http://i.imgur.com/NF8MUmE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1pnFiom.jpg

however in the beginning of issue 5 we clearly see that only one world (earth) is affected and not the entire universe:

http://i.imgur.com/Npn11x4.jpg

as for spectre getting his power back, that's not what happened. in the end, the crispus was surprised that God allowed his son to be returned, which was an incentive for him to undo all the damage he has done, and he did it through the spear of destiny, nothing suggesting that he returned to full power, much less a bit more:

http://i.imgur.com/rplO8Qt.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/S47f5WM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/BBCw20Q.jpg

Yes, I did say it was only one universe, never multiverse.
No, you are right, apparently, he only affected the earth.
You are wrong thought on the last part. Nothing indicates that he was not at full power. Crispus son was returned because the faceless wished for it. The minute Crispus was handed the Spear of Destiny, he was back to his normal power levels. Him not being able to affect cain, or the few others who were affected by the ALE is a matter that was never within Spectre ability to do so. What suggested that he wasn't back at full power I don't understand, can you point it out?

renee (the question) did it through the spear not because she wished for it, and crispus was surprised that God allowed his son to come back, which motivated him to undo all the damage he has done (when he unamde the earth) through the spear of destiny (not under his own power).

Originally posted by operator616
renee (the question) did it through the spear not because she wished for it, and crispus was surprised that God allowed his son to come back, which motivated him to undo all the damage he has done (when he unamde the earth) through the spear of destiny (not under his own power). She wished for it using the spear, obviously

He used the spear because the people were affected by the ALE. I was stated in #4, his powers can't affect those affected by it. This is why he used the spear. This however, doesn't mean he wasn't back to his full power.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
She wished for it using the spear, obviously

He used the spear because the people were affected by the ALE. I was stated in #4, his powers can't affect those affected by it. This is why he used the spear. This however, doesn't mean he wasn't back to his full power.

yeah sorry, i misunderstood you

i get your point, but there wasn't any mention that he was at full power either, on the contrary, one second he was on the floor in the next he is holding the spear restoring all the damage without a statement saying that he is back at full power.

Originally posted by operator616
yeah sorry, i misunderstood you

i get your point, but there wasn't any mention that he was at full power either, on the contrary, one second he was on the floor in the next he is holding the spear restoring all the damage without a statement saying that he is back at full power.
The way i see it, the spectre was never depowered. The Presence just didn't want to let him interfere with the war for freedom of choice. The Anti-Life Equation took away free will, so people were not free to choose to be good or bad, so how can you judge them? The Spectre couldn't harm anyone like it was stated in #4. Cain used the Spear of Destiny to enslave the Spectre and making him a conductor towards the entire earth. After the Spear was taken from Cain he was able to undo the damage that he did using the spear. He still had all of his powers because he was still able to pass judgement on those that followed Cain willingly

IMO, Morrison's intent was for Mandrakk to be the ultimate enemy. I know this because that's exactly what Morrison called him.

In all seriousness though, Mandrakk would win over any Spectre. Mandrakk had literal plot device power -- the ability to consume stories. Per Morrison, the only thing capable of defeating Mandrakk was a being whose story was so great it couldn't be consumed -- Superman's.

Barring Superman and omnipotents and the like, nobody's taking down Mandrakk. That's how Morrison wrote it, that's what he intended, and until shit gets retconned that's the way it is.

Originally posted by Cogito
IMO, Morrison's intent was for Mandrakk to be the ultimate enemy. I know this because that's exactly what Morrison called him.

In all seriousness though, Mandrakk would win over any Spectre. Mandrakk had literal plot device power -- the ability to consume stories. Per Morrison, the only thing capable of defeating Mandrakk was a being whose story was so great it couldn't be consumed -- Superman's.

Barring Superman and omnipotents and the like, nobody's taking down Mandrakk. That's how Morrison wrote it, that's what he intended, and until shit gets retconned that's the way it is.

Originally posted by Cogito
IMO, Morrison's intent was for Mandrakk to be the ultimate enemy. I know this because that's exactly what Morrison called him.

In all seriousness though, Mandrakk would win over any Spectre. Mandrakk had literal plot device power -- the ability to consume stories. Per Morrison, the only thing capable of defeating Mandrakk was a being whose story was so great it couldn't be consumed -- Superman's.

Barring Superman and omnipotents and the like, nobody's taking down Mandrakk. That's how Morrison wrote it, that's what he intended, and until shit gets retconned that's the way it is.

That is why I added ''no PIS''. I know that Morrison is a Supes fanboy and Mandrakk is a walking plot device.

Originally posted by SithLantern93
That is why I added ''no PIS''. I know that Morrison is a Supes fanboy and Mandrakk is a walking plot device.

That's not plot induced stupidity, it's just plot. Not liking a character's powerset isn't PIS.

Originally posted by Cogito
That's not plot induced stupidity, it's just plot. Not liking a character's powerset isn't PIS.


I don't dislike Mandrakk. I am just trying to imply that he is not as powerful as most people wank him. In my humble opinion, the idea of ''eating stories'' and Superman's story being the greatest story is just ridiculous. I am not denying the fact that Mandrakk is multiversal powerhouse who can easily destroy realities. But if you can defeat both Spectre and Radiant at the same time and get defeated by 52 Supermen and nearly powerless 5 Green Lanterns, there is just something wrong there. Mandrakk could have been treated much much much better. I would have loved to see him wrestle with Michael and Lucifer and give them their toughest fight. It is just my humble opinion.

Originally posted by SithLantern93
I don't dislike Mandrakk. I am just trying to imply that he is not as powerful as most people wank him. In my humble opinion, the idea of ''eating stories'' and Superman's story being the greatest story is just ridiculous. I am not denying the fact that Mandrakk is multiversal powerhouse who can easily destroy realities. But if you can defeat both Spectre and Radiant at the same time and get defeated by 52 Supermen and nearly powerless 5 Green Lanterns, there is just something wrong there. Mandrakk could have been treated much much much better. I would have loved to see him wrestle with Michael and Lucifer and give them their toughest fight. It is just my humble opinion.
Dude, you clearly didn't understand what Cogito said. Remember Superman's Story is what is what defeats Mandrakk. In FC7, the narration is future tense telling you of the story about a boy send from a dying world...etc. That story, that specific concept is what Mandrakk was never able to consume. I interrupt it as it is, MAndrakk is the concept that feeds and kills story. He is the last thing that will be alive when DCU ends. Yet, even then, it is that one story that will never died, the origin on Superman. Mandrakk died at the end of FC7 because Superman prevailed, his Story>Mandrakk

Originally posted by SithLantern93
I don't dislike Mandrakk. I am just trying to imply that he is not as powerful as most people wank him. In my humble opinion, the idea of ''eating stories'' and Superman's story being the greatest story is just ridiculous. I am not denying the fact that Mandrakk is multiversal powerhouse who can easily destroy realities. But if you can defeat both Spectre and Radiant at the same time and get defeated by 52 Supermen and nearly powerless 5 Green Lanterns, there is just something wrong there. Mandrakk could have been treated much much much better. I would have loved to see him wrestle with Michael and Lucifer and give them their toughest fight. It is just my humble opinion.

The Mandrakk that consumed stories and was defeated by Cosmic Armor Superman is an entirely different character from the one who was defeated by the Supermen of the multiverse, GL Corps, and angelic hosts.

Two entirely separate characters.

Originally posted by Cogito
The Mandrakk that consumed stories and was defeated by Cosmic Armor Superman is an entirely different character from the one who was defeated by the Supermen of the multiverse, GL Corps, and angelic hosts.

Two entirely separate characters.


Sorry for confusing Dax Novu and Rox Ogama. But did not both Mandrakks were capable of consuming stories IIRC?

Originally posted by operator616
i see

can you specify when did hal and asmodel stomp neron?

the only time they "fought" (unless im missing something) was in day of judgment #5, when the spectre-force was choosing between asmodel, neron and hal, in which case it chose hal:

http://i.imgur.com/aB9IAqB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0UV8aD5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vSnImcF.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lXe9MQa.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lx3nYqF.jpg

also, the 2nd mandrakk doesn't have a lot feats to go by, he supposedly defeated spectre and radiant off panel, and we shouldn't ignore the events that happened to spectre in final crisis revelations which weakened him. and then this mandrakk got beaten by a couple of GLs. Neron was keeping Spectre as a sex slave before after he owned him with a contract

Mandrakk.

He operates on a metatextual level, and he can only defeated by the story itself, or 'a story' overcoming his story-entropy. Which is what happened to both Mandrakk I and Mandrakk II .

dont really know why people are using the story argument to make mandrakk more impressive than he actually is, i am against the idea when comic characters go beyond comic boundaries, we can take queen of fables for example, she apparently had the power over fiction:

http://i.imgur.com/BJHQOOo.jpg

shouldn't she be more powerful than mandrakk based on this statement?

She had control over the fiction within the Comic Book Universe.

Mandrakk is the entropy/anti-fiction/anti-story for the whole concept of Comic Book Universe.

which makes her statement of having power over fiction inside DCU more impressive than mandrakk who is only as you said, the entropy of DCU.
going by the statement that she has control over fiction inside DCU, we can assume that she can summon an entropy concept from any other fictional realm who is equivalent to mandrakk.
that's why im saying that "eating the story" isn't a legitimate argument for a character inside a fictional story, because obviously no matter how powerful the character may be, he can't actually eat the story literally as many people make it out to be.

Mandrakk.

Morrison being Morrison doesn't detract from Mandrakk's power or how it worked.

Originally posted by operator616
which makes her statement of having power over fiction inside DCU more impressive than mandrakk who is only as you said, the entropy of DCU.
going by the statement that she has control over fiction inside DCU, we can assume that she can summon an entropy concept from any other fictional realm who is equivalent to mandrakk. Her having power over fiction that is inside the overall fictional Universe that is the comic book one doesn't make her more impressive - because the area in which she operates is within the concept of fiction itself, something which Mandrakk is the antithesis of. Whether she summons an embodiement of Universal entropy or not - she still summons a fictional representation of it. Mandrakk's whole purpose is that he opposes that - everything that is fictional is within his grasp to eat .

Think of it like this:

Queen of Fables is on a piece of paper. On that paper, entropy can be drawn. She can summon whatever she wants.

But Mandrakk is the paper crusher machine. He doesn't care what's written on the paper - it's still fiction, which he is the entropy of.

The loopholes like the story of Superman are, let's say, a metallic edge of the paper, that stops the paper crusher from consuming it.

to clarify my point further, later in the issue we see flash (dont be surprised by his look since the whole league has been transformed) comments that they should stop her before she reads datne's inferno (and thus make it real) implying that she actually has power over fiction, now im not that knowledgable on date's inferno but i know there's a God (with a capital G) and devil in this verse, so what's not to argue that she can summon God (or anyone for that matter), an omnipotent entity and represent the concept of entrpy just like mandrakk does?

http://i.imgur.com/zQE4HcW.jpg

note that my point isn't that queen of fables is more powerful than mandrakk (imo she definitely isn't) im just saying that these kind of statements are hyperbolic and shouldn't be taken seriously.

^ It's still in the realm of fiction

Though I don't like Philo's explanation

^this post wasn't for your last comment since i didn't see it.

to answer your last point.

i see your point but you're ignoring 2 critical points:

1. mandrakk only operates on DC scale not on the entire fiction.

2. if mandrakk is like you make him out to be, he wouldn't have lost to a fictional character (thought robot) nor mandrakk 2 would have been killed by a couple of GLs.

Originally posted by operator616
^this post wasn't for your last comment since i didn't see it.

to answer your last point.

i see your point but you're ignoring 2 critical points:

1. mandrakk only operates on DC scale not on the entire fiction.

2. if mandrakk is like you make him out to be, he wouldn't have lost to a fictional character (thought robot) nor mandrakk 2 would have been killed by a couple of GLs. He lost to one thing. A story, the only story which can not be eaten, destroyed, or lost. Even after Superman dies, the story of the boy who was send to earth in a ship will remain. That story is what beat Mandrakk because he can never consume it, never make people forget it

Originally posted by operator616
^this post wasn't for your last comment since i didn't see it.

to answer your last point.

i see your point but you're ignoring 2 critical points:

1. mandrakk only operates on DC scale not on the entire fiction.

2. if mandrakk is like you make him out to be, he wouldn't have lost to a fictional character (thought robot) nor mandrakk 2 would have been killed by a couple of GLs. He lost to something that he created before he was corrupted - the ultimate defender of existence, who adapted to any threat powered by the unstoppable and indestructible story of Superman, as they fought on a realm of pure ideas.

You have to stop treating this as "energy discharge" mentality. The story was metatextual for a reason - and his 'defeats' came within the same context. Superman, in his pure thought form, is a stronger idea, that will forever defend the comic book world. Nix Uotan, a younger, more optimistic Monitor came to show Mandrakk II that there is still story potential, that ideas are still there, and forever will be - that the Multiverse, the 'story' will not die.

Imagination is the failsafe of the Multiverse against Mandrakk.

Once you start thinking about how the Monitors represented the writers, and their different type of mentalities , it will be clearer.

Originally posted by Galan007
I agree.

Spectre cannot hope to defeat a confirmed metasexual, like Mandrakk.

Imagine how big his dick is, not scaled inside the Multiverse.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Hyperbole. No limits fallacy. http://www.trolino.com/image?id=14078

He's like Lucifer.

He can will his dick visible whenever he needs it.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
http://www.trolino.com/image?id=14078 Has limits. Can't say no limitations without proving so. We clearly see limitations as well.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Hyperbole. No limits fallacy.

In a way I agree with you.

Originally posted by operator616
they didn't fight in the realm of ideas they fought on nil and then mandrakk fell into the over monitor which proves that mandrakk is not more special than any other comic character with hyperbolic statements (he's certainly one of the most powerful but he's not on a meta-textual level)
and which heavily contradicts that only superman's story can defeat mandrakk's yet superman defeated him on a physical level.

and what makes mandrakk even less impressive is his defeat by the thought robot.
he apparently unleashed an attack containing the heat of ten billion suns, but don't let the words fool you, when you come to think of it, it isn't even a universal attack, and yet, thought robot was greatly hurt by it, even spilling blood, and then proceeded to defeat mandrakk, the battle was clearly on a physical level.

though im not going to dismiss your point, which does hold truth to it, but only a part of the truth since you're looking at mandrakk only from one point of view, which is that he can only be defeated by superman's story, you're not considering the fact that mandrakk was defeated by a physical encounter.

let's take lucifer for example, he tanked a multiversal explosion at ground zero, and if we're going to compare him to mandrakk you'll still say mandrakk wins since he operates on a meta-textual level despite being defeated in a physical encounter by a being clearly less powerful than lucifer?

Ten billion suns? Apparently, you don't know metaphors You also forgot to mention where he says he has eternal power? Not to mention, the bleed, the life force of DCU. As stated, controlling just a drop is to have unlimited power. That's the exact thing that Mandrakk feeds on throughout while locked away.

The cosmic armor is made to fight the greatest enemy. Powered by story. The only story that can beat Mandrakk is Superman's story. The armor also adapts to all threats. I don't understand what you deny? This was stated plain and simple. Again, in SB#2(pg1), pretty much tells you what Philo explained about Mandrakk.

Thought robot? Yes, read Adam's explanation

Nil? That's what the Monitors called it when they started getting affected by stories. Yet, Superman pretty much tells you in SB#2 what it is.

Also, you are looking for feats that don't need to be given. It's pretty much someone saying things like oh, how can (insert omnipotent being) be supreme, where are the feats?, Morrison was clear when he said what Mandrakk is, not just in SB#1-2, but in various interviews. Until that changes, you have to take the intended explanation of the character.

As far as Mandrakk being beaten by physical thing? Read it again, Nix says it, she founds a STORY that is indestructible and unbeatable. Yet, mandrakk was never beaten. He is an idea, opposite of life, which is why he returns.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Ten billion suns? Apparently, you don't know metaphors You also forgot to mention where he says he has eternal power? Not to mention, the bleed, the life force of DCU. As stated, controlling just a drop is to have unlimited power. That's the exact thing that Mandrakk feeds on throughout while locked away.

The cosmic armor is made to fight the greatest enemy. Powered by story. The only story that can beat Mandrakk is Superman's story. The armor also adapts to all threats. I don't understand what you deny? This was stated plain and simple. Again, in SB#2(pg1), pretty much tells you what Philo explained about Mandrakk.

Thought robot? Yes, read Adam's explanation

Nil? That's what the Monitors called it when they started getting affected by stories. Yet, Superman pretty much tells you in SB#2 what it is.

Also, you are looking for feats that don't need to be given. It's pretty much someone saying things like oh, how can (insert omnipotent being) be supreme, where are the feats?, Morrison was clear when he said what Mandrakk is, not just in SB#1-2, but in various interviews. Until that changes, you have to take the intended explanation of the character.

As far as Mandrakk being beaten by physical thing? Read it again, Nix says it, she founds a STORY that is indestructible and unbeatable. Yet, mandrakk was never beaten. He is an idea, opposite of life, which is why he returns.

metaphor? don't think so, it was a statement to show the scale of power on which they're fighting otherwise you might as well say every narration of a cosmic battle is a metaphor.

mandrakk is not the supreme being, morrison stated that over monitor is God (supreme) and not mandrakk, mandrakk is simply the ultimate evil not supreme.

as i stated before i am not denying that it was stated that mandrakk can only be beaten by superman's story, i am saying that we shouldn't ignore the fact that mandrakk was beaten in a physical encounter as well.

mandrakk returns? unless you're talking about mandrakk 2 who got owned by GLs, mandrakk 1 was knocked into the void until the thought of him faded away, so he's definitely not returning.

Originally posted by operator616
metaphor? don't think so, it was a statement to show the scale of power on which they're fighting otherwise you might as well say every narration of a cosmic battle is a metaphor.

mandrakk is not the supreme being, morrison stated that over monitor is God (supreme) and not mandrakk, mandrakk is simply the ultimate evil not supreme.

as i stated before i am not denying that it was stated that mandrakk can only be beaten by superman's story, i am saying that we shouldn't ignore the fact that mandrakk was beaten in a physical encounter as well.

mandrakk returns? unless you're talking about mandrakk 2 who got owned by GLs, mandrakk 1 was knocked into the void until the thought of him faded away, so he's definitely not returning.
Yes, I know there are "two" mandrakk, yet it is one being. Concept wise..

He was defeated physically, but only because it was powered by Superman's story. I don't know how to explain it easier.

No, Mandrakk is definitely not a Supreme being, but I was pointing out, that you don't need all kinds of feats to prove that he is tough. You keep bringing up the "the heat of ten billions sons", yet you taking it out of context. He also says that says, the blood of 5 universes. He also says he has the Bleed, you know the blood life of all DCU.

Originally posted by xJLxKing


He was defeated physically, but only because it was powered by Superman's story. I don't know how to explain it easier.

No, Mandrakk is definitely not a Supreme being, but I was pointing out, that you don't need all kinds of feats to prove that he is tough. You keep bringing up the "the heat of ten billions sons", yet you taking it out of context. He also says that says, the blood of 5 universes. He also says he has the Bleed, you know the blood life of all DCU.

that's the thing though, being defeated physically powered by superman's story (which isn't physical) don't fit together, it's a contradiction.

take it out of context? not sure what you mean.

he actually said the blood of 52 universes.

the statement "heat of ten billion suns" was to express the power level of the attack.

the statement "blood of 52 universes" was to show that mandrakk was feeding off the blood of the 52 universes (the whole multiverse)

at least it's how i see it, if you don't what do you make of the statement feel the blood of 52 universes?

Originally posted by SithLantern93
In a way I agree with you. Agreeing with me is most wise.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Agreeing with me is most wise.


Yeah sure...