Does God have any moral responsibility to his children?

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Greatest I am

juggerman
We cannot think on God's level so to try to hole Him to our faulty standards is foolish.

I believe God not telling Adam and Eve every little thing about their punishment is not at all a lie. Say i said to you "hey if you kill a man you will go to prison" and you do it anyway and in prison you experience other things such as beatings, torture, rape, sickness, ect could you really say i lied cuz i did not mention other hazards you may not have been aware of?

We have free will to decide to give into temptation or not. Some do have it harder than others but in the end it's all about choice. We are all given a choice and some choose to ignore God. Even ones that try to follow God's word face temptation.

Greatest I am
Originally posted by juggerman
We cannot think on God's level so to try to hole Him to our faulty standards is foolish.

I believe God not telling Adam and Eve every little thing about their punishment is not at all a lie. Say i said to you "hey if you kill a man you will go to prison" and you do it anyway and in prison you experience other things such as beatings, torture, rape, sickness, ect could you really say i lied cuz i did not mention other hazards you may not have been aware of?

We have free will to decide to give into temptation or not. Some do have it harder than others but in the end it's all about choice. We are all given a choice and some choose to ignore God. Even ones that try to follow God's word face temptation.

You seem to think that you cannot think as God does yet he himself says that you can. A & E became as Gods according to God in the moral sense and that means that we definitely can and do think as he does. Why, if not so, would he ask us to ---- "Test all things"
1 Thessalonians. 5:21

Step up and take responsibility instead of the usual Christian way of using their God as a scapegoat.

Your salvation is yours to earn. Not from a free pass from some God that you say you cannot understand.

If you, like God did, added a bunch of consequences to the penalty that you have warned your children about then you would be as poor of a parent as God seems to have been in Eden.

Regards
DL

juggerman
Originally posted by Greatest I am
You seem to think that you cannot think as God does yet he himself says that you can. A & E became as Gods according to God in the moral sense and that means that we definitely can and do think as he does. Why, if not so, would he ask us to ---- "Test all things"
1 Thessalonians. 5:21

Step up and take responsibility instead of the usual Christian way of using their God as a scapegoat.

Your salvation is yours to earn. Not from a free pass from some God that you say you cannot understand.

If you, like God did, added a bunch of consequences to the penalty that you have warned your children about then you would be as poor of a parent as God seems to have been in Eden.

Regards
DL

Yet we see there is a vast difference in knowledge between them. A child can think as adults do ie brain function, reasoning ect yet lacks the knowledge that the adult may have to fully grasp actions and results.

I don't believe i'm using a scapegoat at all

And we do have to earn it. By following God and staying away from temptation

He did not add anything as i would not have added the extra horrors that can happen in jail. They sinned so they were cast into the world. Basically you seem to believe God should have disclosed every last detail of what could/would happen and then are trying to make it seem like he lied by not doing so. Would you warn your children of every single dangerous thing that could happen everytime they leave the safety of their house or do you believe telling them to be careful because the world is full of bad people would suffice?

Shakyamunison
I don't believe that God has children.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I don't believe that God has children.


I have two. uhuh

Mindset
You are not the father.

Lord Lucien
But you are a spooky ghost.

Shakyamunison
I think it is just symbolic. Just like personification. This helps us humans understand something way beyond our ability to comprehend.

Greatest I am
Originally posted by juggerman
Yet we see there is a vast difference in knowledge between them. A child can think as adults do ie brain function, reasoning ect yet lacks the knowledge that the adult may have to fully grasp actions and results.

I don't believe i'm using a scapegoat at all

And we do have to earn it. By following God and staying away from temptation

He did not add anything as i would not have added the extra horrors that can happen in jail. They sinned so they were cast into the world. Basically you seem to believe God should have disclosed every last detail of what could/would happen and then are trying to make it seem like he lied by not doing so. Would you warn your children of every single dangerous thing that could happen everytime they leave the safety of their house or do you believe telling them to be careful because the world is full of bad people would suffice?

Not a good analogy but I will play.

It would not suffice if they were not careful and I murdered them because of it.

Like God did with A & E by keeping them from what would save their lives. The tree of life.

Is there anything in terms of disobedience that your children could do to have you kill them through neglect the way God murdered A & E?

Regards
DL

juggerman
Originally posted by Greatest I am
Not a good analogy but I will play.

It would not suffice if they were not careful and I murdered them because of it.

Like God did with A & E by keeping them from what would save their lives. The tree of life.

Is there anything in terms of disobedience that your children could do to have you kill them through neglect the way God murdered A & E?

Regards
DL

It is but agree to disagree i guess.

He did not "murder" them as the word "murder" is an act between humans. God is so far above us that our laws and standards don't apply to Him. Imagine for a moment an ant tried to impose it's will/laws upon you. Silly right? Same concept except on a grander scale

He simply allowed their actions and results of said actions happen. Again if you tell your child "Don't get into cars with strangers" and one day they decided to and something bad happened how is that the parent's fault? Was God suppsed to place armed guards around the tree to ensure they didn't disobey? That wouldn't really be free will then

Of course not tho it is not neglect at all. Mortal death is not the end according to God. If i killed or caused the death of my child that would be it. Game over. But God allows his children a way back. Now if i could do something like turn them from immortal to mortal so they appreaciated life or something along those line then you'd have a point. According to God only their body would die but they could live forever with him in eternal happinss afterwards. Best neglect i've ever heard of

Greatest I am
Originally posted by juggerman
It is but agree to disagree i guess.

He did not "murder" them as the word "murder" is an act between humans. God is so far above us that our laws and standards don't apply to Him. Imagine for a moment an ant tried to impose it's will/laws upon you. Silly right? Same concept except on a grander scale

He simply allowed their actions and results of said actions happen. Again if you tell your child "Don't get into cars with strangers" and one day they decided to and something bad happened how is that the parent's fault? Was God suppsed to place armed guards around the tree to ensure they didn't disobey? That wouldn't really be free will then

Of course not tho it is not neglect at all. Mortal death is not the end according to God. If i killed or caused the death of my child that would be it. Game over. But God allows his children a way back. Now if i could do something like turn them from immortal to mortal so they appreaciated life or something along those line then you'd have a point. According to God only their body would die but they could live forever with him in eternal happinss afterwards. Best neglect i've ever heard of

Wow. Might makes right and to hell with good moral action from your God. Ok.

So you see it as a natural consequence for God to keep his children away from the tree that would keep them alive and when they die, that is not murder.

Thanks for showing how you do not have good moral discernment.

You have nothing to teach me so we are done.

Regards
DL

juggerman
Originally posted by Greatest I am
Wow. Might makes right and to hell with good moral action from your God. Ok.

So you see it as a natural consequence for God to keep his children away from the tree that would keep them alive and when they die, that is not murder.

Thanks for showing how you do not have good moral discernment.

You have nothing to teach me so we are done.

Regards
DL

Way to twist my words. It's clear you have no real intrest in having an actual debate and are simply looking to troll those who don't agree with you. Strawmanning is never the way son

If you want to grow up and actually discuss this like an adult i'll be around. In the mean time look up the word "murder" for i do not think it means what you think it means

Regards
Inigo Montoya

Greatest I am
Originally posted by juggerman
Way to twist my words. It's clear you have no real intrest in having an actual debate and are simply looking to troll those who don't agree with you. Strawmanning is never the way son

If you want to grow up and actually discuss this like an adult i'll be around. In the mean time look up the word "murder" for i do not think it means what you think it means

Regards
Inigo Montoya

I suggest that it is you who should recognize that if you deny someone what will keep them alive, it is murder.

If you need proof, go deny someone their air and see how soon you are jailed for murder.

And do not call me son, child. You have way too much to learn before taking that liberty.

Start here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

Regards
DL

anaconda
god is a creation of man so no to god and yes to parents

-Pr-
Assuming god is real, then no, he has no moral obligation to us. Using our own standards, adults aren't children, and can't blame god for things they need to take responsibility for, because adults are supposed to know better, whereas actual children don't.

Also, applying our own moral standards to a supreme being is highly flawed, tbh, and can't be in any way practical.

At least imo.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by juggerman
We cannot think on God's level so to try to hole Him to our faulty standards is foolish.

Then you believe in absolute moral relativism?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Also, applying our own moral standards to a supreme being is highly flawed, tbh, and can't be in any way practical.

I don't think I'm okay with the idea of saying that people get to decide what is right and wrong simply because they're more powerful.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Then you believe in absolute moral relativism?



I don't think I'm okay with the idea of saying that people get to decide what is right and wrong simply because they're more powerful.

I'm not that okay with it either, tbh. I just don't think that I would have the same understanding of the universe or existence as a being like that, and I would be forced to at least respect his views, even if I didn't agree with them.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by -Pr-
I'm not that okay with it either, tbh. I just don't think that I would have the same understanding of the universe or existence as a being like that, and I would be forced to at least respect his views, even if I didn't agree with them.

I feel like people who say this don't really think it through. For something trivial, sure, we'd all respect that but then that isn't dependent on them being omniscient only on the action being trivial. If a person went around committing rape and murder I doubt you'd actually respect their actions simply because they claim to be smarter than you.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I feel like people who say this don't really think it through. For something trivial, sure, we'd all respect that but then that isn't dependent on them being omniscient only on the action being trivial. If a person went around committing rape and murder I doubt you'd actually respect their actions simply because they claim to be smarter than you.

lol, I said respect their views, not their actions.

I'm not arrogant enough to believe that a supreme being should place the same value on a human life that I do. Though at the same time, I reserve the right to retain the belief in the value of that life that I place on it.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by -Pr-
lol, I said respect their views, not their actions.

If a person put me in prison I'd say the jailer wasn't respecting my belief that I should be free. How do you react to a being that holds the view that it should not respect your views? If you don't care then you'd have to take my side that respecting the simple existence of a belief is trivial.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I'm not arrogant enough to believe that a supreme being should place the same value on a human life that I do. Though at the same time, I reserve the right to retain the belief in the value of that life that I place on it.

Then you've adopted an odd sort of relativism. Within your own morality serial killers are bad and should be stopped from killing. At the same time you want to respect their desire to kill.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If a person put me in prison I'd say the jailer wasn't respecting my belief that I should be free. How do you react to a being that holds the view that it should not respect your views? If you don't care then you'd have to take my side that respecting the simple existence of a belief is trivial.



Then you've adopted an odd sort of relativism. Within your own morality serial killers are bad and should be stopped from killing. At the same time you want to respect their desire to kill.

By standing up for my own views. Sure, a supreme being might blink me out of existence, but I won't compromise who I am for the sake of a supreme being's superior knowledge when I don't agree with their morality. I wouldn't consider a supreme being the same as a jailer, though, so I'm not sure we're going to reach an accord on this.

Desires are one thing, actions are another. Sure, I believe that steps need to be taken to minimise danger, but I think it's important to make distinctions where they apply.

I think I'm getting my words twisted here, so I'll try to clarify, as I'm only going to sound like I'm contradicting myself.

I don't respect the desire to kill; I recognise and respect that it exists, even if I find it morally dubious.

I respect it's existence, in the sense that I believe and accept that it is a real thing. Just like a paedophile has the urge to molest children. I respect that the urge exists and that it is an actual construct, but I in no way believe that such beliefs should be entertained or celebrated. I acknowledge the existence of the desire and the belief, but I'd still work to suppress any dangerous action if it was threatening.

Does that make any sense? I haven't slept yet, so I'm not sure I'm coming across properly.

Dolos
First off, my religion is Quantum Perspective:

"Quantum Perspective is a theistic view about the nature of the cosmos, delving into quantum physics and parallel universe/M theory. It states Quantum Reality only exists within perspective, therefore perspective influences causality to result in a multi-verse of potentialities."

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Does God have any moral responsibility to his children?

Human parents have a moral responsibility to protect and try to raise their children to be what we think of as good citizens. Our laws, to some extent, make parents morally and legally responsible for the actions of their children.

God, our heavenly parent, is said to create our natures. Natures can only be followed. They cannot be changed,

They can be changed, we can, in our ignorance, deviate from our conscience and make decisions which are contrary to it. When we do, causality is no longer in the hands of our conscious existence, a precursor to the prime consciousness, the unreachable end-point of all evolution.

When that happens, we create microcasms in quantum reality, that are not of intelligent design, and are very flawed and imperfect. Cause and effect take over in a chaos, and we become victims of it. This is not good for evolution, God promotes omnibenevolence by virtue of being the outcome of evolution, not this devolution brought about by the paradox of choice.



In one potential parallel universe, one is born and becomes sour. However, there are infinite potentialities, therefore that very same individual could have followed his or her conscience, and gained better clarity to make the better choices that brings about a good potentiality as opposed to a bad one.

Whatever can happen does happen, it's up to the one with the causal eye, the one who holds perspective of his or her existence - to choose which of the infinite goods or bads to observe throughout their natural existence, and therefore benefit or suffer from said perspectives in life.



By very definition you're conscious mind is a precursor and yet one of infinite conceptions to and by God simultaneously. It is omnipresent, everything at once.

You and God are one in the same, so you have the power to determine how far you are able to bring about the most evolution in your lifetime that you can, by virtue of choice. Choice being the positive or negative reflection of your various causes and effects in life, which actually dictate its quality and is in itself a reflection of one's positive or negative outlook on life, perspective. There is no limit to what any sentient mind can achieve as their actions in life echo a positive or negative affect on the overall evolution of intelligence, there are certainly long shots for some, but not limits per se.

Whatever decision you make in life is irrelevant still, because in every single potentiality God has emerged as the ultimate plateau in the evolution of consciousness, it merely achieved existence differently in each potentiality.

Symmetric Chaos
"There is a need for a new science. A new science based on the primacy of consciousness."

Can we call it Kantian metaphysics like we did last time?

Dolos
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
"There is a need for a new science. A new science based on the primacy of consciousness."

Can we call it Kantian metaphysics like we did last time?

Yes.



There is always room for more knowledge in science.

juggerman
Originally posted by Greatest I am
I suggest that it is you who should recognize that if you deny someone what will keep them alive, it is murder.

If you need proof, go deny someone their air and see how soon you are jailed for murder.

And do not call me son, child. You have way too much to learn before taking that liberty.

Start here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

Regards
DL

I suggest you learn what the word murder means. Start here: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/murder


God could no more "murder" a human than you could "murder" an ant. Go stomp on an ant in front of a cop and see how quickly you don't get in any trouble at all

I shall call you what i wish, son. When you're clearly trolling you don't get respect. Son

Oh and one last thing- laughing out loud

juggerman
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Then you believe in absolute moral relativism?

Well i wouldn't hold a child to the same standards of it's parents. Or a bear to the standards to a human. Our laws/morals don't apply to a god so just because we see something as wrong or unfair doesn't mean He would. Also we are fallable and God is not so saying this/that is wrong/right can be completely wrong yet we falsefully believe otherwise

Bardock42
Originally posted by Greatest I am

And do not call me son, child.


Do not call me child, kid!

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Bardock42
Do not call me child, kid!

I was going to post again but their egos are taking up too much room.

juggerman
Originally posted by Bardock42
Do not call me child, kid!

laughing out loud

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I was going to post again but their egos are taking up too much room.

Sorry embarrasment

Greatest I am
Originally posted by anaconda
god is a creation of man so no to god and yes to parents

+ 1

Regards
DL

Greatest I am
Originally posted by -Pr-
Assuming god is real, then no, he has no moral obligation to us. Using our own standards, adults aren't children, and can't blame god for things they need to take responsibility for, because adults are supposed to know better, whereas actual children don't.

Also, applying our own moral standards to a supreme being is highly flawed, tbh, and can't be in any way practical.

At least imo.

But scriptures say that they are to be the same.
As above so below.

Remember your Genesis where God says, "they have become as Gods, knowing good and evil. God does think like us and we like him. From an esoteric POV of course. It is all myth.

If we are not to put human standards to morality then whose morality should we use if the absentee God do not come around to instruct in their non-human morality?

Regards
DL

Greatest I am
Originally posted by Dolos
First off, my religion is Quantum Perspective:

"Quantum Perspective is a theistic view about the nature of the cosmos, delving into quantum physics and parallel universe/M theory. It states Quantum Reality only exists within perspective, therefore perspective influences causality to result in a multi-verse of potentialities."



They can be changed, we can, in our ignorance, deviate from our conscience and make decisions which are contrary to it. When we do, causality is no longer in the hands of our conscious existence, a precursor to the prime consciousness, the unreachable end-point of all evolution.

When that happens, we create microcasms in quantum reality, that are not of intelligent design, and are very flawed and imperfect. Cause and effect take over in a chaos, and we become victims of it. This is not good for evolution, God promotes omnibenevolence by virtue of being the outcome of evolution, not this devolution brought about by the paradox of choice.



In one potential parallel universe, one is born and becomes sour. However, there are infinite potentialities, therefore that very same individual could have followed his or her conscience, and gained better clarity to make the better choices that brings about a good potentiality as opposed to a bad one.

Whatever can happen does happen, it's up to the one with the causal eye, the one who holds perspective of his or her existence - to choose which of the infinite goods or bads to observe throughout their natural existence, and therefore benefit or suffer from said perspectives in life.



By very definition you're conscious mind is a precursor and yet one of infinite conceptions to and by God simultaneously. It is omnipresent, everything at once.

You and God are one in the same, so you have the power to determine how far you are able to bring about the most evolution in your lifetime that you can, by virtue of choice. Choice being the positive or negative reflection of your various causes and effects in life, which actually dictate its quality and is in itself a reflection of one's positive or negative outlook on life, perspective. There is no limit to what any sentient mind can achieve as their actions in life echo a positive or negative affect on the overall evolution of intelligence, there are certainly long shots for some, but not limits per se.

Whatever decision you make in life is irrelevant still, because in every single potentiality God has emerged as the ultimate plateau in the evolution of consciousness, it merely achieved existence differently in each potentiality.

Hard to separate the good from the not so good here. That is the problem with partially formed new age religions.

"You and God are one in the same,"

I agree with this and have in fact started a new O P on this issue.
Please have a look and opine on it.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=580857


Speaking of our natures, you said----------

'"hey can be changed, we can, in our ignorance, deviate from our conscience and make decisions which are contrary to it."

Our natures are fixed into a certain form. So to speak.
The only changes we can make are determined by that form and we cannot change it. We can change some aspects of how we act, that is just free will, but we cannot, let's say, become gay if we are straight or straight if we are gay.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am

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