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This is a pretty flawed rationalization of something that has numerous other interpretations. At best it's a decent point with a shallow treatment.

It's only egotistical if it was expected by us. Most Christians glorify Jesus because he sacrificed himself for such flawed creatures. They understand their unworthiness compared to their deity, and use the sacrifice to show God's unconditional love for humanity.

So it's not "we deserve this" but "God is great." It's an act of self-deprecation to admit this fully. Hell, their are litanies written into most masses that express this same idea. How many Christians have uttered "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the Word and I shall be healed."

In short, it's only egotistical if you're egotistical about it. It's not inherently anything. And few, if any, go around thinking "well, we deserved eternal salvation despite our sins."

So your argument falls flat, at least in how you try to frame it.

I would contend that there's some egotism to saying "we're God's chosen people" as a sect, race, creed, etc. This happens on occasion. At that point, the message becomes not love but sectarian division and elitism. But that isn't what you're arguing.

I think there's also personal egotism in those who claim to "know" the truth, instead of just saying "this is what I believe." But a lot of that can be attributed to gaps in logic or education, not necessarily deliberate egoism.

Originally posted by Digi
This is a pretty flawed rationalization of something that has numerous other interpretations. At best it's a decent point with a shallow treatment.

It's only egotistical if it was expected by us. Most Christians glorify Jesus because he sacrificed himself for such flawed creatures. They understand their unworthiness compared to their deity, and use the sacrifice to show God's unconditional love for humanity.

So it's not "we deserve this" but "God is great." It's an act of self-deprecation to admit this fully. Hell, their are litanies written into most masses that express this same idea. How many Christians have uttered "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the Word and I shall be healed."

In short, it's only egotistical if you're egotistical about it. It's not inherently anything. And few, if any, go around thinking "well, we deserved eternal salvation despite our sins."

So your argument falls flat, at least in how you try to frame it.

And if you approach it a different way, God and Jesus are not the same person so God didn't sacrifice Himself to save us from Himself.

To put it the Mormon way: Jesus suffered our sins and hardships so we wouldn't have to suffer eternal guilt and shame over them (because we, as perfect conscious beings (our spirits think a lot differently than our corporeal selves) would be perfectly conscious of our sins).

Originally posted by Digi
I would contend that there's some egotism to saying "we're God's chosen people" as a sect, race, creed, etc. This happens on occasion. At that point, the message becomes not love but sectarian division and elitism. But that isn't what you're arguing.

As Mormon with Jewish ancestry, I am clearly better than you.

http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/images/GifGuide/DealWithIt/dillwithit.gif

Originally posted by Digi
I think there's also personal egotism in those who claim to "know" the truth, instead of just saying "this is what I believe." But a lot of that can be attributed to gaps in logic or education, not necessarily deliberate egoism.

As I understand the current philosophical debate, the discussion of "knowledge" in philosophy is at the point to where there is no answer to the "you can know if God is real and therefore it is impossible to claim that one cannot know if God exists."

It would be egotistical if you were thinking you could ORDER a god to die for you.

But if the god does the deciding, then you're pretty much home-free.

This sounds like naive realism. You're trying to fit Christianity into atheist modes of thought and discovering that it requires egotism. But Christianity was never meant to fit into an atheistic belief system and it makes no sense to judge its internal logic from that point of view. The bible saying that god died for humanity makes it not egotistical for a Christian to believe that god died for humanity. Remember that they take the biblical account as sufficient evidence about the life and actions of god.

Would you did die for an ant?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
This sounds like naive realism. You're trying to fit Christianity into atheist modes of thought and discovering that it requires egotism. But Christianity was never meant to fit into an atheistic belief system and it makes no sense to judge its internal logic from that point of view. The bible saying that god died for humanity makes it not egotistical for a Christian to believe that god died for humanity. Remember that they take the biblical account as sufficient evidence about the life and actions of god.

blam!

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
Would you did die for an ant?


If I was an Jainist extremist, maybe.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
This sounds like naive realism. You're trying to fit Christianity into atheist modes of thought and discovering that it requires egotism. But Christianity was never meant to fit into an atheistic belief system and it makes no sense to judge its internal logic from that point of view. The bible saying that god died for humanity makes it not egotistical for a Christian to believe that god died for humanity. Remember that they take the biblical account as sufficient evidence about the life and actions of god.

http://i930.photobucket.com/albums/ad145/howimetyourmothergifs/mindblown.gif

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Is thinking that to believe that God would die for you the epitome of an inflated ego?

If not, what could possibly inflate an ego more than that?Thinking you are God?

Originally posted by Mindship
Thinking you are God? Knowing you are God?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Knowing you are God?

Knowing you're above God?

Originally posted by Dolos
Knowing you're above God?

Knowing you're above God + infinity?

/middleschool

Really?

if someone yells "lower your weapons" what do you say? i say "you first".

that is exactly what god did. he came down here and played by his own rules and submitted himself peacefully to our judgement. Only now can he ask me to do the same without being a hypocrite tyrant.

Originally posted by dotseth
if someone yells "lower your weapons" what do you say? i say "you first". I say "What weapons?".

Originally posted by Digi
This is a pretty flawed rationalization of something that has numerous other interpretations. At best it's a decent point with a shallow treatment.

It's only egotistical if it was expected by us. Most Christians glorify Jesus because he sacrificed himself for such flawed creatures. They understand their unworthiness compared to their deity, and use the sacrifice to show God's unconditional love for humanity.

So it's not "we deserve this" but "God is great." It's an act of self-deprecation to admit this fully. Hell, their are litanies written into most masses that express this same idea. How many Christians have uttered "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the Word and I shall be healed."

In short, it's only egotistical if you're egotistical about it. It's not inherently anything. And few, if any, go around thinking "well, we deserved eternal salvation despite our sins."

So your argument falls flat, at least in how you try to frame it.

I would contend that there's some egotism to saying "we're God's chosen people" as a sect, race, creed, etc. This happens on occasion. At that point, the message becomes not love but sectarian division and elitism. But that isn't what you're arguing.

I think there's also personal egotism in those who claim to "know" the truth, instead of just saying "this is what I believe." But a lot of that can be attributed to gaps in logic or education, not necessarily deliberate egoism.

So Christians are only inadvertently egotistical. Ok.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by siriuswriter
It would be egotistical if you were thinking you could ORDER a god to die for you.

But if the god does the deciding, then you're pretty much home-free.

Free to embrace human sacrifice and the notion that we should profit from punishing the innocent, yes.

Not as good place to be to me but if Christians like that satanic position then good for them. Satan will be pleased.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
This sounds like naive realism. You're trying to fit Christianity into atheist modes of thought and discovering that it requires egotism. But Christianity was never meant to fit into an atheistic belief system and it makes no sense to judge its internal logic from that point of view. The bible saying that god died for humanity makes it not egotistical for a Christian to believe that god died for humanity. Remember that they take the biblical account as sufficient evidence about the life and actions of god.

I am not an atheist.
I just follow a moral God compared to bible God.

They do take the biblical account as sufficient evidence about the life and actions of God and end up calling evil good.

Scriptures say that they will go to hell for that.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
Would you did die for an ant?

Exactly my point.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Mindship
Thinking you are God?

If we are talking the miracle working absentee super God of the bible, I agree.

If you mean the God that Gnostic Jesus talked about, then I would not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am
I am not an atheist.

Okay, atheist perspective was just easier to say than etic perspective but the point remains. You are applying external standards to Christianity and then forgetting that those standards are external. Of course, it seems hypocritical if you change things half way through.

I'll show you.

Christians believe that YWHW created the universe with a word.
Hindus believe that Brahma created the universe by splitting his body.
Witness the Christian hypocrisy, believing these contradictory things!

Except that Christians aren't Hindus. It is absurd to judge Christians beliefs based on how well they line up with Hinduism. In exactly the same way your belief system is different from Christianity (or rather what you think Christians believe is different from what they do believe). The fact that they do not line up is only evidence of a difference not a lack of internal consistency on either part.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Scriptures say that they will go to hell for that.

Not their scriptures.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Okay, atheist perspective was just easier to say than etic perspective but the point remains. You are applying external standards to Christianity and then forgetting that those standards are external. Of course, it seems hypocritical if you change things half way through.

I'll show you.

Christians believe that YWHW created the universe with a word.
Hindus believe that Brahma created the universe by splitting his body.
Witness the Christian hypocrisy, believing these contradictory things!

Except that Christians aren't Hindus. It is absurd to judge Christians beliefs based on how well they line up with Hinduism. In exactly the same way your belief system is different from Christianity (or rather what you think Christians believe is different from what they do believe). The fact that they do not line up is only evidence of a difference not a lack of internal consistency on either part.

Not their scriptures.

When the bible tells us to test all things, it does not say from any particular perspective. If it would, then it would hardly be a fair test as the testing material is fixed.

But that immoral and useless process may well be the Christian way.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am
If we are talking the miracle working absentee super God of the bible, I agree.

If you mean the God that Gnostic Jesus talked about, then I would not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

Regards
DL Do you meditate?

Originally posted by Mindship
Do you meditate?

Not much these days but did on occasion in the past. Not in any dedicated way though.

I do promote it more since learning a bit more of it.

It was meditation that helped me push my apotheosis.

Regards
DL