Beyonder Vs. Lucifer Morningstar & Michael Demiurgos

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God Butcher
Rules:
-Win by death or incapitation
-No prep
-Bloodlust on
-Pre-Retcon Beyonder is being used
Fight takes place in the Amalgam Universe.

JakeTheBank
Angels ftw.

Mr Master
God ftw. stoned

janus77
How can anyone beat Pre-Retcon Beyonder?
Surely it's spite to place any character against him.

Well any character below the supreme being of either Marvel or DC.

operator616
beyonder.

God Butcher
Lucifer can convince Beyonder to kill himself.

yaadaveyaa
beyonder is the most powerful being besides TOAA or LT isnt he? at least in marvel?

operator616
not really, omniversal beings are above him imo.

HoM wanda destroyed the whole omniverse:

http://i.imgur.com/4JyspiD.jpg

that was in x-men die by the sword #1 which was written in 2008 now the weird thing is that the 2005 marvel handbook released the definition of the omniverse as being marvel, and other companies as well as the real world:

http://i.imgur.com/DjiO6yA.jpg?1

now we don't have to take that literally of course but it's still more impressive than anything beyonder has done.

we also musn't forget that the power of the beyonder (post retcon trans-multiversal being) is nothing compared to the life force (source of wanda's powers):

http://i.imgur.com/ZYdZVUw.jpg

yaadaveyaa
for some reason i thought we disreguarded hom wanda on this forum? i was always informed of classic beyonder being right there with LT

operator616
why disregard hom wanda?
beyonder was millions of times more powerufl than MU (including LT) back then, though LT has grown more powerful since SW.

yaadaveyaa
i dont know for some reason like we disregard voidtry feats with owen i just thought she was banned for some reason thats y i was asking i know beyonder was like way beyond anything but LT that i could think of so he'd shit stomp these 2

Mr Master
Originally posted by operator616

why disregard hom wanda?
beyonder was millions of times more powerufl than MU (including LT)
back then,

though LT has grown more powerful since SW.
Who told you the LT "grew in power?"

The LT is the LT the same LT of always.

Classic Beyonder curbstomps HOM Wanda!

yaadaveyaa
Originally posted by Mr Master
Who told you the LT "grew in power?"

The LT is the LT the same LT of always.

Classic Beyonder curbstomps HOM Wanda!

at least to my understanding classic beyonder beats everything but toaa and LT am i wrong?

Galan007
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Angels ftw. thumb up

operator616
Originally posted by Mr Master
Who told you the LT "grew in power?"

The LT is the LT the same LT of always.

Classic Beyonder curbstomps HOM Wanda!

he wasn't megaversal back then.

im pretty sure you're familiar with the scan where it is stated that LT exists in all multiverses simultaneously this was from fantastic four annual #23 which was written in 1990, before that LT operated on a multiversal scale.

how exactly? beyonder doesn't have any omniversal feat.

Glorificus
Bloodlust on?

Beyonder makes the two angels suffer.

Glorificus
Originally posted by yaadaveyaa
at least to my understanding classic beyonder beats everything but toaa and LT am i wrong?

Classic Beyonder should be well above LT. He's a true supreme being. TOAA is probably his only peer.

Mr Master
TOAA = the representative avatars of any given writer/artist,
so, they choose to get owned or own.

Classic Beyonder is the next best thing in Marvel, in terms of all time.
Originally posted by operator616

he wasn't megaversal back then.

im pretty sure you're familiar with the scan where it is stated that LT
exists in all multiverses simultaneously this was from fantastic four
annual #23 which was written in 1990, before that LT operated on a
multiversal scale.
no expression ... The LT operated on a multiversal scale?

You do realize that was All of canon Marvel at the time?

So, the LT operated across all of Marvel, always has.
Originally posted by operator616

how exactly? beyonder doesn't have any omniversal feat.
Yea ok. Beyonder was the embodiment of his own infinity.

An infinity that when compared to the trans-infinite prime Multiverse,
was like comparing an Ocean to a drop of water.

Beyonder's power is = to MillionS of prime MultverseS"

That's where 99% of the power in Marvel is concentrated,
who gives a hoot about the rest.

operator616
Originally posted by Mr Master
TOAA = the representative avatars of any given writer/artist,
so, they choose to get owned or own.

Classic Beyonder is the next best thing in Marvel, in terms of all time.

no expression ... The LT operated on a multiversal scale?

You do realize that was All of canon Marvel at the time?

So, the LT operated across all of Marvel, always has.

Yea ok. Beyonder was the embodiment of his own infinity.

An infinity that when compared to the trans-infinite prime Multiverse,
was like comparing an Ocean to a drop of water.

Beyonder's power is = to MillionS of prime MultverseS"

That's where 99% of the power in Marvel is concentrated,
who gives a hoot about the rest.


it's pretty clear in his first appearance with strange, that he operated on a multiversal scale, not megaversal. then after the secret wars, this FF annual issue retcons LT to operating on a megaversal scale rather than multiversal.

otherwise if LT operated on a megaversal scale in SW, he would also see the multiverse as a droplet of water (since the multiverse is infinitesimal when compared to a megaverse as 1 universe is infinitesimal when compared to the multiverse)

by definition the omniverse is every possible/imaginable reality, meaning it includes every universe/multiverse/etc...that ever was, is or will be ever created including beyonder's universe (which dwarfs the multiverse) since beyonder's universe is a possible universe right? thus it's still a part of the omniverse.

in simpler words, all marvel multiverses, universes, megaverses, including beyonder's realm, etc....are still part of the whole omniverse.

Mr Master
Originally posted by operator616

it's pretty clear in his first appearance with strange, that he
operated on a multiversal scale, not megaversal. then after the
secret wars, this FF annual issue retcons LT to operating on a
megaversal scale rather than multiversal.

otherwise if LT operated on a megaversal scale in SW, he would
also see the multiverse as a droplet of water (since the multiverse
is infinitesimal when compared to a megaverse as 1 universe is
infinitesimal when compared to the multiverse)

by definition the omniverse is every possible/imaginable reality,
meaning it includes every universe/multiverse/etc...that ever was,
is or will be ever created including beyonder's universe (which
dwarfs the multiverse) since beyonder's universe is a possible
universe right? thus it's still a part of the omniverse.

in simpler words, all marvel multiverses, universes, megaverses,
including beyonder's realm, etc....are still part of the whole omniverse.
facepalm ... At Beyonder's Realm being part of anything but his.

I would've replied, but you're all over the place friend.
And I'm in the mood to give lessons right now, maybe later.

The LT is the LT the same LT of always.

Let me know when you got that scan of an on panel account or bio update
which even slightly suggests the LT's power was boosted or downgraded or whatever.

dynamix
Originally posted by Mr Master
TOAA = the representative avatars of any given writer/artist,
so, they choose to get owned or own.



word, thats the best definition of TOAA.

operator616
^did you see the definition of the omniverse?

http://i.imgur.com/DjiO6yA.jpg?1

correct me if im wrong but doesn't it state that it includes every universe,realm, etc... mentioned by marvel? so why are you posting a facepalm when the evidence is on my side?

in his first appearance (strange tales #158) he wasn't even mentioned to be operating on a mulitversal scale.
notice that strange says judge of the infinite cosmos (even no mention of the multiverse) i dont think the multiverse was even mentioned in that issue, granted i flipped through the pages pretty quickly

http://i.imgur.com/U8jcwf3.jpg

him being multiversal was only mentioned in his 3rd apperance (i believe though i could be wrong) in Rom #41, and LT is mentioned as being multiversal:

http://i.imgur.com/SnhYOvF.jpg

nowhere before SW was it mentioned that he operated on a megaversal scale (unless you could prove it of course)

Mr Master
^^

The LT ... "Omniversal" ... in ... 1982:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/15959312_LT_omni.jpg

"By the Omniversal Constant ... blah, blah ..."

operator616
i have that issue, it's from what if the avenger had become pawns of korvac (#32) here's the full scan:

http://i.imgur.com/iZtU4Ye.jpg

1. and what if comics are non canon

2. LT saying "by the omniversal constant" doesn't prove that he operates on an omniversal scale, c'mon you know that.

Mr Master
^^, "non-canon?" ... That's funny, when the issue is referenced in the LT's bio.
(it's canon to the LT)

You want the "Omniverse" mentioned in a 1983 Handbook too? Cause I can do that. smile

Anyway, still waiting on the on panel or bio statement which
suggests the LT's power was boosted/upgraded or whatever other fantasy.

Originally posted by operator616

^did you see the definition of the omniverse?

http://i.imgur.com/DjiO6yA.jpg?1

correct me if im wrong
I did, and I will. I don't know where you got that from
but if it's from the outdated 2005 Alternate Handbook, then it's useless.

Now, back to Marvel Comics:



1. Omniverse

2. TOAA

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/15959313_Omniverse_Bio.jpg

1. "Group of alternate universeS which encompasses ALL Reality"

2. The entity believed to be the Supreme being/Creator of the Omniverse"

..........................................................................


Btw. On Panel evidence agrees 100% with this bio:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/15959315_Omniverse_explained.jpg

"Reality ... Brian came to realize the size and breadth of Reality,
he learned of the Omniverse and its unending alternatives,
Alternative Realities ...
the Omniverse is the collection of All those possibilities"

..........................................................................


Is this just on panel and updated handbook talk?

Nah, the Marvel Omniverse has been illustrated many times,
I could swarm the page but I'm sure this will suffice:


http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/15959314_Omniverse_drawn.jpg

"Behold Crosstime ... perhaps more properly known as the Omniverse.

An Infinite number of conceptual Alternatives for All the Worlds of Creation,
we're LOOKING at the variations of SOL III, (Earth-616) better known as the planet Earth,
from this perspective, THIS World looks very much like our own"

-----------------------------------------------

operator616
not to sound rude, and i really do appreciate you gathering evidence, but can you point out how giving me the definitions of the omniverse is relevant to the topic at hand (pre-SW LT being megaversal)?

Mr Master
Originally posted by operator616

not to sound rude, and i really do appreciate you gathering
evidence, but can you point out how giving me the definitions of the
omniverse is relevant to the topic at hand (pre-SW LT being
megaversal)?
You're the one that requested to be corrected when you brought up
that outdated understanding about the Marvel Omniverse.

I cleared that for ya friend.

The LT is the same LT of always.
The most powerful entity there is, until Beyonder and upgraded Owen Reece arrived.
Then Beyonder/Owen were downgraded, so the LT shot back up to #1.
Then we learned there is one greater than the LT ... TOAA.
Then we learned that 1000 Years from now, there is another anomaly
that surpasses the LT .. Protege, and another that surpasses them both ... Scathan.
Then we learned that TOAA's power has manifested withIN reality,
so the LT gets stomped.

That's it, that's the whole story.

And this: (Beyonder making the LT & friends "Tremble" in fear)

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15959291_Beyonder_scares_LT.jpg

This was he or not "megarversal" twister you're carrying isn't going anywhere.
The trans-infinite Prime Multiverse is all that really matters.
That's where 99% of all Marvel power is.

Did you know, that All those other UniverseS OUTSIDE the Prime
Multiverse have No consciousness? Meaning, Eternity/Infinity's
consciousness does not expand into them. There's life within them,
but not on a cosmic scale.

753
Originally posted by Mr Master
The trans-infinite Prime Multiverse is all that really matters.
Thats' where 99% of all Marvel power is.

Did you know, that All those other UniverseS OUTSIDE the Prime
Multiverse have No consciousness? Meaning, Eternity/Infinity's
consciousness does not expand into them. There's life within them,
but not on a cosmic scale. how is this known?

anyway, LT's standing in the hierarchy hasn't changed, but the cosmic topography he governs (the megaverse thing) has been expanded by newer comics. this can be seen as a power-up from our point of view as readers, but not from within the universe, so you are both right in a sense.


@op: stalemate; boring thread.

operator616
my intention of bringing the "outdated" definition of the omniverse in 2005 handbook was to point out wanda's feat (since she did it in 2005 hence why i brought the 2005 handbook and then it was referenced in 2008) not to show the most recent definition of the omniverse (which you apparently thought).

anyways, i guess bringing up the trans-infinite multiversal concept (still not megaversal level though) is a fair point from your part.

may i ask for proof on the last part?

operator616
you think lucy and mike stalemate the beyonder?

i dont think they do, since LT was confirmed to be trans-multiversal in SW (which is on the level of lucifer and michael) , and beyonder was millions of times more powerful than LT and all others. i think it's pretty clear that the beyonder is more powerful

Mr Master
Originally posted by operator616

may i ask for proof on the last part?
Originally posted by 753

how is this known?
The LT's own bio.

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15959324_No_ET_outside_ET.jpg
Originally posted by 753

anyway, LT's
cosmic topography he governs (the megaverse thing) has been
expanded by newer comics. this can be seen as a power-up from our
point of view as readers, but not from within the universe, so you are
both right in a sense.
I disagree.

The majority of Marvel's significance is constricted to the prime Multiverse.

DTM
No one, two, or three beings could beat PR Beyonder (well, maybe 3 PR Molecule Men) smile Beyonder at that time was so INSANELY powerful it ws ridiculous.

quanchi112
Beyonder wins.

grungerocker420
If anyone here has ever picked up a comic they would have realized that Michaels power compared to the once infinity universes that made the Dcverse, was described to have been able to manipulate, destroy, or create ten times over. Beyonders power compared to the same sized multiverse was said to be millions of times more powerful.

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