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Wonder Woman

VS

Immortal Hercules

Hand to Hand

Been done on panel already. She kicked his ass and it's canon to both companies.

No it isn't.

Originally posted by carver9
No it isn't.
It happened during JLA/Avengers right? It's canon to both companies.

It's canon to DC because the Cosmic Egg from the story shows up in a canon DC story.

It's canon to Marvel because the Crossover is mentioned in Terminus' handbook entry including how he appeared, was defeated by the JLA, and was kicked out of DC by the Spectre.

The event is canon to both companies.

Canon or not, it's not usable on the forums. No JLA/Avengers talk, please.

Wonder Woman

It was never again mentioned outside of JLA/Avengers, so no, it isn't.

The closest we get is DCU making some vague references in Trinity, without naming the Marvel characters involved. The same thing happened after Marvel vs DC, which obviously isn't canon either..

Originally posted by cdtm
It was never again mentioned outside of JLA/Avengers, so no, it isn't.

The closest we get is DCU making some vague references in Trinity, without naming the Marvel characters involved. The same thing happened after Marvel vs DC, which obviously isn't canon either..
The Mod said no more talk of JLA/Avengers so if you want me to PM you the scan from Terminus' handbook entry proving the event is canon to Marvel I will.
Originally posted by Zack Fair
Wonder Woman
Yup.

Diana wins.

Also, in JLA/Avengers, the WW vs. Herc fight was clearly favoring WW, as she thought he was her worlds Herc and went into their clash pissed as Hell, and he went into the fight hitting on her (clearly he not knowing who she was or what she could do). Id probably give the slight nod to WW in the end of their fight, but it would be a Long Hard Battle, one Diana would not win lightly.

WW

Jesus Christ, either some of you can't read or you're just dying to get your two cents in while saying **** the rules.

Pretty much. People are still talking about the JLA fight. Brave, just outright bravery.

WW is stronger (but I can accept even for this fight), more skilled, and vastly faster.
She wins convincingly.

Originally posted by carver9
Pretty much. People are still talking about the JLA fight. Brave, just outright bravery.

Bravery =/= stupidity.

Is Current Herc still depowered?

His new gear would give him the edge if he has his strength back

What new gear?

Originally posted by h1a8
more skilled

Based on what?

Originally posted by zopzop
Been done on panel already. She kicked his ass and it's canon to both companies.

What do you mean she kicked his ass? She rushes him, they trade blows and we see one panel of her having him in a hold as Hercules tells the other Agardians to back off IIRC. Then we have another panel of him having her in a hold as Wasp blasts her in the face.

And if we want to nitpick about canon, that was a mortal Hercules going toe to toe with Diana:
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/196/njko.jpg
Originally posted by zopzop
It's canon to Marvel because the Crossover is mentioned in Terminus' handbook entry including how he appeared, was defeated by the JLA, and was kicked out of DC by the Spectre.

Scan?

Not that a handbook is conclusive of anything. I've seen the Marvel vs. Capcom game referenced in handbooks. Probably worse if I dig.

Originally posted by Golgo13
What new gear?
Helm of Hades(invisibility)
Sword of (Percius?)(sword can cut threw anything
Shield of the Gorgon (stone stare on shield)

Sounds nasty, but if Dina can use her lasso, she wins. Plus this is just hth, anyway.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Scan?

Not that a handbook is conclusive of anything. I've seen the Marvel vs. Capcom game referenced in handbooks. Probably worse if I dig.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Canon or not, it's not usable on the forums. No JLA/Avengers talk, please.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Based on what? based on common comic book knowledge. She is clearly viewed as more skilled.
She is a class A fighter while Herc is maybe a C fighter.

Originally posted by h1a8
She is a class A fighter while Herc is maybe a C fighter.
Kneeing people in the nuts, pulling hair, etc.. He fights like b|tch.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What do you mean she kicked his ass? She rushes him, they trade blows and we see one panel of her having him in a hold as Hercules tells the other Agardians to back off IIRC. Then we have another panel of him having her in a hold as Wasp blasts her in the face.

And if we want to nitpick about canon, that was a mortal Hercules going toe to toe with Diana:
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/196/njko.jpg


Scan?

Not that a handbook is conclusive of anything. I've seen the Marvel vs. Capcom game referenced in handbooks. Probably worse if I dig.

Come on man, don't do that now.

Originally posted by h1a8
based on common comic book knowledge. She is clearly viewed as more skilled.
She is a class A fighter while Herc is maybe a C fighter.

Diana being more skilled then Hercules is hardly common comic book knowledge.

Maybe you view her as clearly more skilled.

What feats does Diana have that you feel puts her two classes above Hercules? People bring up Diana sparring with Lady Shiva as evidence of her prowess while she has her powers. Hercules went toe to toe with Elektra while powerless not too long ago as I recall.

Again, what evidence are you basing this on?

Also, Diana is no class A fighter. People like Batman and Captain America are class A fighters. Bruce has held his own and has even gotten the better of her on a few occasions despite her crazy power advantage.

H1 isn't going to name a single ft.

strength is roughly equal, like her strength is roughly equal to cap marvel's. skill is also about equal or not so different that it would give diana the win. her biggest advantage on paper--by FAR--is her very obvious speed advantage. he could certainly take some wins, but her speed gives her the majority. and this thread has been done...a lot.

Guys, no more mentioning JLA/AVENGERS.

Carver, stop baiting.

N/A

Warned.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Diana being more skilled then Hercules is hardly common comic book knowledge.

Maybe you view her as clearly more skilled.

What feats does Diana have that you feel puts her two classes above Hercules? People bring up Diana sparring with Lady Shiva as evidence of her prowess while she has her powers. Hercules went toe to toe with Elektra while powerless not too long ago as I recall.

Again, what evidence are you basing this on?

Also, Diana is no class A fighter. People like Batman and Captain America are class A fighters. Bruce has held his own and has even gotten the better of her on a few occasions despite her crazy power advantage.

Skill is proven through
1. How a character performs in battle
2. How a character fare against a known other

1. Holds more weight than 2. since characters job/sometimes fight inefficiently, ABC logic is faulty, etc.

Skill isn't quantifiable as say strength and speed. You have to be experienced in fighting knowledge to have a credible subjective opinion on skill. Diana has shown highly skilled techniques (with their application) of countering, blocking, dodging, pressure points, agility, striking of all forms, etc.

She is the greatest Amazon warrior. This makes her a class A fighter outright. There is plenty evidence that, in equal bodies, she can fight Batman, Lady Shiva, etc. and hold her own. In comics, when they have WW fight or spar with skilled fighters they ignore her powers. Just like Superman's speed/reflexes, super hearing, etc. is sometimes ignored in comics.

There's also the matter that Black Canary and Batman regularly complement her on her hand to hand skill.

And when she fought with sticks with Canary, Canary thoughtbubbled, "I could use my cry, but then she'd use her powers..." indicating she wasn't fighting Dinah with powers.


Also, there is a massive difference between when WW and Batman spar (in which they will fight fairly evenly, and Batman will use holds that could be powered out of, indicating lack of super strengths), and when it's more serious (Hikatera, wherein she pwns him and there's no indication of not using powers), indicating she's not using her powers in the former.

lmao at this blatant Wonder Woman lowballing.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Diana being more skilled then Hercules is hardly common comic book knowledge.

Maybe you view her as clearly more skilled.

What feats does Diana have that you feel puts her two classes above Hercules? People bring up Diana sparring with Lady Shiva as evidence of her prowess while she has her powers. Hercules went toe to toe with Elektra while powerless not too long ago as I recall.

Again, what evidence are you basing this on?

Also, Diana is no class A fighter. People like Batman and Captain America are class A fighters. Bruce has held his own and has even gotten the better of her on a few occasions despite her crazy power advantage.

LMAO @ Diana skill > Herc. Completely baseless fantasy concerning a more popular character in their respective universes.

Herc and Wonder Woman are both b class fighters thats not even debatable

Originally posted by iceman24567
Herc and Wonder Woman are both b class fighters thats not even debatable
WW is class A not B. You can't be the greatest Amazon warrior and be a B class fighter. The amazonian arts are superior to the vast majority of the earthly arts. She is on par with Batman, etc.
Hercules at best is B but is C the vast majority of the time.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
LMAO @ Diana skill > Herc. Completely baseless fantasy concerning a more popular character in their respective universes. Then you don't read comics or understand fighting. WW clearly is more skillful. Look at her blocks, parrys, counters, dodging, kicking ability, pressure points, smoothness, agility, etc. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or an expert martial artists to see this. Not only she knows far more techniques than Hercules, but she does them with the smoothness of a master.

Originally posted by h1a8
Then you don't read comics or understand fighting. Sweet sassy molassy

Originally posted by h1a8
WW is class A not B. You can't be the greatest Amazon warrior and be a B class fighter. The amazonian arts are superior to the vast majority of the earthly arts. She is on par with Batman, etc.
Hercules at best is B but is C the vast majority of the time.

Then you don't read comics or understand fighting. WW clearly is more skillful. Look at her blocks, parrys, counters, dodging, kicking ability, pressure points, smoothness, agility, etc. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or an expert martial artists to see this. Not only she knows far more techniques than Hercules, but she does them with the smoothness of a master.

Glad you mentioned her dodges and parrys. Herc doesn't need to do have the dodges and parry's because he's much stronger than her to begin with. Secondly, Herc is the foremost skilled WRESTLER in comics and that is not debatable. So what, wrestling skill doesn't matter, is that what you are saying? Herc would break that brawd's neck with a well placed suplex that she wouldn't be able to counter.

Are you familar with Herc at all? I ask that because you actually called him a C class fighter. Can you name some other C class fighters? Are you comparing him to someone like the Rhino, or one of the wrecking crew members?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What do you mean she kicked his ass? She rushes him, they trade blows and we see one panel of her having him in a hold as Hercules tells the other Agardians to back off IIRC. Then we have another panel of him having her in a hold as Wasp blasts her in the face.

And if we want to nitpick about canon, that was a mortal Hercules going toe to toe with Diana:
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/196/njko.jpg


Scan?

Not that a handbook is conclusive of anything. I've seen the Marvel vs. Capcom game referenced in handbooks. Probably worse if I dig. Ryu for high herald?

YES PLEASE.

Anyways as for the thread

Strength: Hercules
Speed: Diana by a lot. Not even fair at all.
Skill: Diana.
Stamina: Not sure


Diana also has flight which is a great help in this type of situation.

Diana would own him marvelites.

Originally posted by Q99
There's also the matter that Black Canary and Batman regularly complement her on her hand to hand skill.

And when she fought with sticks with Canary, Canary thoughtbubbled, "I could use my cry, but then she'd use her powers..." indicating she wasn't fighting Dinah with powers.


Also, there is a massive difference between when WW and Batman spar (in which they will fight fairly evenly, and Batman will use holds that could be powered out of, indicating lack of super strengths), and when it's more serious (Hikatera, wherein she pwns him and there's no indication of not using powers), indicating she's not using her powers in the former.



This is great. Anytime Batman gets the better of Wonder Woman (Even when she's serious or possessed or trying to take him out etc.) she's not using her powers.

What a convenient and hilarious stance to take. How about you support it with some evidence? Since when can Wonder Woman shut off her powers like taking off a Green Lantern Ring? It's one thing to say she's holding back her speed/strength but she's still a high end class 100 at base and doesn't have anything close to Superman's mental regulation of physical abilities.

Talk about having your cake and eating it too.

Wouldn't you argue that it is quite stupid for Batman to take out Diana on skill alone while she has her super strength, speed and all that other shit?

Then again this is Batman we are talking about. He has more BS under his resume than Superman.

Originally posted by h1a8
Skill is proven through
1. How a character performs in battle
2. How a character fare against a known other

1. Holds more weight than 2. since characters job/sometimes fight inefficiently, ABC logic is faulty, etc.

Skill isn't quantifiable as say strength and speed. You have to be experienced in fighting knowledge to have a credible subjective opinion on skill. Diana has shown highly skilled techniques (with their application) of countering, blocking, dodging, pressure points, agility, striking of all forms, etc.

You said Diana is a Class A fighter and is better then Hercules by two levels. Post evidence or SHUT UP. Very simple.

We've seen Hercules illustrate plenty of different forms of hand to hand skills etc.

Originally posted by h1a8
She is the greatest Amazon warrior. This makes her a class A fighter outright. There is plenty evidence that, in equal bodies, she can fight Batman, Lady Shiva, etc. and hold her own. In comics, when they have WW fight or spar with skilled fighters they ignore her powers. Just like Superman's speed/reflexes, super hearing, etc. is sometimes ignored in comics.

She can be the greatest Amazon fighter to ever live, that doesn't even make her Class C much less Class A in terms of fighting. What kind of nonsense is that?

And just because Thor is the greatest warrior of Asgard or Hercules of Olympus, does that make them the Class A fighters automatically as well? Or let me guess, does this logic only apply to DC characters you favour?

Hahahaha. Wonder Woman sparring with Batman, Deathstroke, Black Canary etc. in her vastly superhuman body and holding her own more or less is evidence that she can do so just as well while in a normal body? What kind of crack are you smoking?

Prove that Wonder Woman's powers are ignored. This isn't flight or energy based powers, you're arguing that her very superhuman stats themselves are being ignored.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Wouldn't you argue that it is quite stupid for Batman to take out Diana on skill alone while she has her super strength, speed and all that other shit?

Then again this is Batman we are talking about. He has more BS under his resume than Superman. No.

No he doesn't. He's Batman. Isn't that enough to prove his prowess?

Wonder Woman vs. Black Canary:
http://img83.exs.cx/img83/133/BoP_68_09.jpg
http://img83.exs.cx/img83/1342/BoP_68_10.jpg
http://img83.exs.cx/img83/3789/BoP_68_11.jpg
http://img41.exs.cx/img41/9804/BoP_68_13.jpg
http://img41.exs.cx/img41/8387/BoP_68_14.jpg

Black Canary gets the better of her in a staff fight. Maybe Diana can do just as well while powerless but using a fight where she does have powers as evidence is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard of.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You said Diana is a Class A fighter and is better then Hercules by two levels. Post evidence or SHUT UP. Very simple.

We've seen Hercules illustrate plenty of different forms of hand to hand skills etc.



She can be the greatest Amazon fighter to ever live, that doesn't even make her Class C much less Class A in terms of fighting. What kind of nonsense is that?

And just because Thor is the greatest warrior of Asgard or Hercules of Olympus, does that make them the Class A fighters automatically as well? Or let me guess, does this logic only apply to DC characters you favour?

Hahahaha. Wonder Woman sparring with Batman, Deathstroke, Black Canary etc. in her vastly superhuman body and holding her own more or less is evidence that she can do so just as well while in a normal body? What kind of crack are you smoking?

Prove that Wonder Woman's powers are ignored. This isn't flight or energy based powers, you're arguing that her very superhuman stats themselves are being ignored.

This is comics Rage. That's the way they work. This is a convenient way for the writer to display WW's level of fighting skill (by her fighting the best and ignoring her powers). Technically, or in real life that is stupid, but again this is comics and we are using the suspension of disbelief to get what the writer is trying to show us. We shouldn't treat this comic stuff as characters who actually exist and have powers.

You still believe I'm bias towards D.C.? Shame on you sir. I'm a martial artist and favor speed and martial arts more than anything. If speed was equalized I vote for Thor to stomp Superman for a high majority (even if Thor just melees). I could care less about what company. Search the Spider-man vs. WW thread. I supported Spidey beating WW. I argued against almost everyone LOL. Of course I don't believe that today (I got better sense) but at least you see where my heart was and still is.

Although I've seen Hercules display techniques and fighting ability, I have to say the I'm very convinced that WW shows higher level of skill with more smoothness of application and also more agililty. Even her kicking ability is vastly superior to his.

I admit that Hercules is a beast when it comes to wrestling and probably have greater skill than her in this aspect. But as far as striking, parrying, dodging, countering, she is definitely more skillful.

LOL it's hard to debate with you because you have the attitude of "we can't know the intentions of the writer" even though at times they are very clear. You can only prove something to a point. After that you must use common sense.

Herc is a better fighter.

Originally posted by h1a8
This is comics Rage. That's the way they work. This is a convenient way for the writer to display WW's level of fighting skill (by her fighting the best and ignoring her powers). Technically, or in real life that is stupid, but again this is comics and we are using the suspension of disbelief to get what the writer is trying to show us. We shouldn't treat this comic stuff as characters who actually exist and have powers.

You still believe I'm bias towards D.C.? Shame on you sir. I'm a martial artist and favor speed and martial arts more than anything. If speed was equalized I vote for Thor to stomp Superman for a high majority (even if Thor just melees). I could care less about what company. Search the Spider-man vs. WW thread. I supported Spidey beating WW. I argued against almost everyone LOL. Of course I don't believe that today (I got better sense) but at least you see where my heart was and still is.

Although I've seen Hercules display techniques and fighting ability, I have to say the I'm very convinced that WW shows higher level of skill with more smoothness of application and also more agililty. Even her kicking ability is vastly superior to his.

I admit that Hercules is a beast when it comes to wrestling and probably have greater skill than her in this aspect. But as far as striking, parrying, dodging, countering, she is definitely more skillful.

So Wonder Woman's suddenly powerless whenever she goes hand to hand with a street level character because you say so or it's convenient? Even when demonstrating her powers? Sorry, that's not how it works and your telepathy doesn't hold weight here.

You made a claim about Wonder Woman and have yet to produce a single piece of evidence to support it. All your posts so far amount to you thinking Wonder Woman is more skilled because your gut tells you so.

Now it'd be one thing if that's what you said, but you presented your position as something based on evidence. As if you were clearly in the right or something. So post evidence or GTFO.

Also, Thor isn't going to stomp Superman in combat just because of equalized speed.

There's no matter of powerless or what you think your opinion is.

Any peak-human trying to block the punch of someone who can lift a million tons, should lose whatever it is they're trying to block with. That's just how it is. There's no low or high feat. If Thor ****ing punches Daredevil, it doesn't matter if Matt rolls with the blow, Thor's punching hard enough to send a car into orbit.

If the peak human lives, then the super-strong character is either holding back or it's just plain bullshit.

R4jPfvS0xgs

Argument invalid.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
So Wonder Woman's suddenly powerless whenever she goes hand to hand with a street level character because you say so or it's convenient? Even when demonstrating her powers? Sorry, that's not how it works and your telepathy doesn't hold weight here.

You made a claim about Wonder Woman and have yet to produce a single piece of evidence to support it. All your posts so far amount to you thinking Wonder Woman is more skilled because your gut tells you so.

Now it'd be one thing if that's what you said, but you presented your position as something based on evidence. As if you were clearly in the right or something. So post evidence or GTFO.

Also, Thor isn't going to stomp Superman in combat just because of equalized speed.

When WW is going up against a top level fighter and her powers aren't being displayed then yes her powers are off. The same reasoning of why Superman's super speed and senses sometimes get shut off in comics.
I know it's stupid but this is comics we are talking about. Unless you want to argue that highly skilled humans can normally fight WW (a being who can lift more than millions of tons and move limbs faster than light on a regular) and hold their own or reason why Superman's powers get ignore sometimes.

Ok I can try to post some scans of WW showing MA ability when I get home. But this is subjective and not quantifiable. So it would seem a waste of time to convince you. It takes common sense and some experience in fighting to actually see differences in fighting ability. I know about parrying, blocking, kicking, countering, and pressure points. WW has display those skills very well. Her agility is up there too.

Well I think Thor can as I favor the fighter and speed more. Maybe it's closer to 60-40 in Thor's favor IDK. At least you understand I'm not D.C. bias though. Just look at the characters who I favor (are they faster or are they more skilled?).

Originally posted by Golgo13
Sounds nasty, but if Dina can use her lasso, she wins. Plus this is just hth, anyway.

Does Herc get his mace to bash her skull in?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
No.

No he doesn't. He's Batman. Isn't that enough to prove his prowess?

WTF?? Are you serious? So we are making 4th wall sort of arguments now?

Originally posted by curryman
There's no matter of powerless or what you think your opinion is.

Any peak-human trying to block the punch of someone who can lift a million tons, should lose whatever it is they're trying to block with. That's just how it is. There's no low or high feat. If Thor ****ing punches Daredevil, it doesn't matter if Matt rolls with the blow, Thor's punching hard enough to send a car into orbit.

If the peak human lives, then the super-strong character is either holding back or it's just plain bullshit.

I think the point is the concept of holding back to that level is complete BS. It can't be done and still have any sort of value in terms of a display of skill. If I successfully spar with a baby, does that mean I am highly skilled? No, it means I sparred with a baby.

Originally posted by h1a8
When WW is going up against a top level fighter and her powers aren't being displayed then yes her powers are off. The same reasoning of why Superman's super speed and senses sometimes get shut off in comics. I know it's stupid but this is comics we are talking about.

It's stupid, but it's not so much comics as it is D.C. comics. The contradiction comes into play because of the Superman template that D.C. uses so often and what the did to Diana is a perfect example. Too often D.C. comics require the reader to abandon all reason and accept the BS patties it force feeds you.

At least you understand I'm not D.C. bias though. Just look at the characters who I favor (are they faster or are they more skilled?).

Um, looked at your sig pick lately?

Originally posted by Zack Fair
R4jPfvS0xgs

Argument invalid. Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Um, looked at your sig pick lately? Stop trolling. I'm tired of seeing your posts reported.

Originally posted by Badabing
Stop trolling. I'm tired of seeing your posts reported.

See that emoticon? That's hardly trolling my man. Sorry about any alerts, just making character based arguments.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
WTF?? Are you serious? So we are making 4th wall sort of arguments now? Batman being Batman is absolute proof for anything you need help on.

Also, his feats dwarf Diana's.

Who cares about his sig, yo.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
See that emoticon? That's hardly trolling my man. Sorry about any alerts, just making character based arguments. See this smilie...dur

Get used to it. sneer

Batman did say that Diana was the best melee fighter in the world.

mmm

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Strength: Hercules
Speed: Diana by a lot. Not even fair at all.
Skill: Diana.
Stamina: Not sure


Diana also has flight which is a great help in this type of situation.

Diana would own him marvelites.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Batman did say that Diana was the best melee fighter in the world.

mmm He isn't including himself.

Originally posted by Mindset
He isn't including himself. I can always count on you to put right the wrongs of others.

Originally posted by h1a8
When WW is going up against a top level fighter and her powers aren't being displayed then yes her powers are off. The same reasoning of why Superman's super speed and senses sometimes get shut off in comics.
I know it's stupid but this is comics we are talking about. Unless you want to argue that highly skilled humans can normally fight WW (a being who can lift more than millions of tons and move limbs faster than light on a regular) and hold their own or reason why Superman's powers get ignore sometimes.

Ok I can try to post some scans of WW showing MA ability when I get home. But this is subjective and not quantifiable. So it would seem a waste of time to convince you. It takes common sense and some experience in fighting to actually see differences in fighting ability. I know about parrying, blocking, kicking, countering, and pressure points. WW has display those skills very well. Her agility is up there too.

Well I think Thor can as I favor the fighter and speed more. Maybe it's closer to 60-40 in Thor's favor IDK. At least you understand I'm not D.C. bias though. Just look at the characters who I favor (are they faster or are they more skilled?).



So based on absolutely nothing, Wonder Woman is suddenly human level when she faces street level characters in combat? Even when she displays superhuman powers? How do you even expect me to respond to bullshit like this other than with the report button? Glad that I can argue away any low Thor showing by saying he was just inexplicably depowered when discussing shit with you.

Still sticking to Wonder Woman being an A-list fighter (While Hercules/Thor are C-list or whatever) on absolutely nothing? I mean besides being the greatest Amazon warrior because somehow that's conclusive evidence. I like how you side stepped my question on whether that applies to Hercules/Thor though.

Unless someone can prove that Diana can consciously "shut off" her powers, the idea should be dropped, tbh.

And no, it's not nearly the same thing as Superman's speed.

So what top martial artist/warrior has Hercules sparred/fought ?

WW faster and better fighter. Herc is stronger but fck strength.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Unless someone can prove that Diana can consciously "shut off" her powers, the idea should be dropped, tbh.

And no, it's not nearly the same thing as Superman's speed.

She may not be able to "shut them off" but she clearly is able to hold back to an incredible degree or she would not even be able to spar with characters like Black Canary. To imply that she is using her super strength or speed in these sparring sessions is equally as baseless as implying that she can just shut them off. It is entirely counter-intuitive.

I know that some will not be satisfied until we see a depowered WW doing some of the same things, but I don't think the BC fight can be so easily discarded. Dinah's thoughts in that scene clearly show that WW is not using her powers. Now, you can of course argue what constitutes her "powers" or to what degree she is holding back. Given the characters portrayals during those sessions and the consistent praise WW has received from characters like Batman and BC, it is quite logical to conclude that her skill level is very high. How high? Again, that is debatable, but I would not give anyone but a dedicated martial artist an advantage over her in skill.

As for this fight, even if you rate them equal in strength and skill, or rate Hercules slightly stronger, she still has an overwhelming speed advantage. That's not even factoring in flight. She wins a solid majority.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


So based on absolutely nothing, Wonder Woman is suddenly human level when she faces street level characters in combat? Even when she displays superhuman powers? How do you even expect me to respond to bullshit like this other than with the report button? Glad that I can argue away any low Thor showing by saying he was just inexplicably depowered when discussing shit with you.

Still sticking to Wonder Woman being an A-list fighter (While Hercules/Thor are C-list or whatever) on absolutely nothing? I mean besides being the greatest Amazon warrior because somehow that's conclusive evidence. I like how you side stepped my question on whether that applies to Hercules/Thor though.



How would you explain a human being able to block a strike from a being who can lift more than a million tons? With her ftl reflexes does she see batman moving in super statue motion and purposely gets hit by him?

How would you explain all that? Where are her powers? Does she pretend or do the writer ignore them?
Originally posted by -Pr-
Unless someone can prove that Diana can consciously "shut off" her powers, the idea should be dropped, tbh.

And no, it's not nearly the same thing as Superman's speed.
Now no one argued or suggested that she cuts her own powers off (she doesn't). The writer does.

It would be very hard to explain how the strikes of a being who can lift in access of millions of tons are blocked by human opponents?

Also when fighting she doesn't see batman or lady shiva moving in super statue slow motion where she purposely gets hit by them.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
She may not be able to "shut them off" but she clearly is able to hold back to an incredible degree or she would not even be able to spar with characters like Black Canary. To imply that she is using her super strength or speed in these sparring sessions is equally as baseless as implying that she can just shut them off. It is entirely counter-intuitive.

I know that some will not be satisfied until we see a depowered WW doing some of the same things, but I don't think the BC fight can be so easily discarded. Dinah's thoughts in that scene clearly show that WW is not using her powers. Now, you can of course argue what constitutes her "powers" or to what degree she is holding back. Given the characters portrayals during those sessions and the consistent praise WW has received from characters like Batman and BC, it is quite logical to conclude that her skill level is very high. How high? Again, that is debatable, but I would not give anyone but a dedicated martial artist an advantage over her in skill.

As for this fight, even if you rate them equal in strength and skill, or rate Hercules slightly stronger, she still has an overwhelming speed advantage. That's not even factoring in flight. She wins a solid majority.

Herc wins.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Herc wins. why?

Originally posted by h1a8
why? Stronger and more durable.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Stronger and more durable.
How is he stronger? Diana was shown to match CM, hurt Superman, Konvict, etc. Have her strength be greater than D. C. Hercules (who achieved the same trials).
How is he more durable? She survive a blow from an amped Superman that knocked her from the Sun to Earth in a moment.

Let's entertain your notions though. Let's assume he is stronger and more durable (lmao). Then it is by a little bit where it doesn't really make a difference. It's not like he is significantly stronger or more durable right. So her speed is vastly more than his and she is more skilled in fighting. Those advantages (especially the first) outweigh the slight strength and durability advantage he has over her. It isn't like she failed to seriously hurt or rock a much stronger and more durable being in Superman or other comparable beings. .

Originally posted by h1a8
How is he stronger? Diana was shown to match CM, hurt Superman, Konvict, etc. Have her strength be greater than D. C. Hercules (who achieved the same trials).
How is he more durable? She survive a blow from an amped Superman that knocked her from the Sun to Earth in a moment.

Let's entertain your notions though. Let's assume he is stronger and more durable (lmao). Then it is by a little bit where it doesn't really make a difference. It's not like he is significantly stronger or more durable right. So her speed is vastly more than his and she is more skilled in fighting. Those advantages (especially the first) outweigh the slight strength and durability advantage he has over her. It isn't like she failed to seriously hurt or rock a much stronger and more durable being in Superman or other comparable beings. . She was easily ko'd and her wrist was easily broken there. Hulk a stronger being has never sonned Herc that easily.


Herc and Thor are stronger than WW. There's a reason she can't hang with the big dogs.

Diana

LOL

Originally posted by quanchi112
She was easily ko'd and her wrist was easily broken there. Hulk a stronger being has never sonned Herc that easily.


Herc and Thor are stronger than WW. There's a reason she can't hang with the big dogs. by an amped Superman. SUPERMAN is a good deal stronger too. A much stronger Superman failed to break her face when he punched her across space with all his might.

You just can't cherry pick low showings and establish them as her power level for a forum fight. You do that all the time. That's trolling in a way. We use full capacity here.

So again what are you saying? Herc is significantly stronger than her? If so then by how much or how many times do you believe?

Originally posted by h1a8
by an amped Superman. SUPERMAN is a good deal stronger too. A much stronger Superman failed to break her face when he punched her across space with all his might.

You just can't cherry pick low showings and establish them as her power level for a forum fight. You do that all the time. That's trolling in a way. We use full capacity here.

So again what are you saying? Herc is significantly stronger than her? If so then by how much or how many times do you believe? He was not amped when he took her to the sun with his strength.

That fight makes it obvious she can't compete with him unless she uses her skill. Same thing with Herc cept he is skilled as well.


He is stronger and more durable so she loses.

Hercules is horribly screwed against Diana.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Hercules is horribly screwed against Diana.

And not in the good way, either.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He was not amped when he took her to the sun with his strength.

That fight makes it obvious she can't compete with him unless she uses her skill. Same thing with Herc cept he is skilled as well.


He is stronger and more durable so she loses. please stop trolling and address all my statements. I'll repeat


Originally posted by h1a8
by an amped Superman. SUPERMAN is a good deal stronger too. A much stronger Superman failed to break her face when he punched her across space with all his might.

You just can't cherry pick low showings and establish them as her power level for a forum fight. You do that all the time. That's trolling in a way. We use full capacity here.

So again what are you saying? Herc is significantly stronger than her? If so then by how much or how many times do you believe?

Hercules more often than not

Originally posted by -Pr-
Unless someone can prove that Diana can consciously "shut off" her powers, the idea should be dropped, tbh.

And no, it's not nearly the same thing as Superman's speed.

The fact that Dinah, when fighting her, notes she isn't using her powers, and that when she and Batman spar, he uses moves that only would work against non-superhuman foes and they work (and then they talk out what'd happen next), and the performance is totally different from when they fight with powers (wherein Diana pwns him), is a fair bit of evidence for it if you ask me.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Hercules is horribly screwed against Diana.

Originally posted by h1a8
please stop trolling and address all my statements. I'll repeat Superman was not amped when he flew her against her will nearly into the sun.

Superman was also amped against Doomsday from HP and it Didnt help at all.

I have addressed your points. WW weathered the storm due to trickery and hiding not like she can fight him straight up.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Superman was not amped when he flew her against her will nearly into the sun.

Superman was also amped against Doomsday from HP and it Didnt help at all.

I have addressed your points. WW weathered the storm due to trickery and hiding not like she can fight him straight up.

Some argued he was amped when he hit her back to Earth since he was right next to the Sun.

HP DD is more powerful than WW and a sunamp is arguably more powerful than a motherbox box.

You haven't' address the points of you cherry picking low showings and implying that is the exact power level a character will be at in a forum fight. You are ignoring full capacity.

The last thing, you didn't answer the question of how much stronger do you think Herc is over WW or how many times stronger in your opinion.

Originally posted by The Sorrow
Hercules more often than not

Strength-WW or equals
Skill-WW
Agility-WW
Reflexes-WW
Speed-WW by a lot

How does Herc win in your opinion?

Originally posted by h1a8
Some argued he was amped when he hit her back to Earth since he was right next to the Sun.

HP DD is more powerful than WW and a sunamp is arguably more powerful than a motherbox box.

You haven't' address the points of you cherry picking low showings and implying that is the exact power level a character will be at in a forum fight. You are ignoring full capacity.

The last thing, you didn't answer the question of how much stronger do you think Herc is over WW or how many times stronger in your opinion. So ?

Arguable but both are amps. DD can take Superman on directly whereas WW cannot hence the point.

No, I am embracing it. WW needs her skill as she cannot directly have a chance against someone like Superman without it.

He is stronger.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So ?

Arguable but both are amps. DD can take Superman on directly whereas WW cannot hence the point.

No, I am embracing it. WW needs her skill as she cannot directly have a chance against someone like Superman without it.

He is stronger.

Both Superman and DD are a lot more powerful than Hercules. So your point is moot anyway.

How much stronger is he over her?

Also you should know that strength isn't the deciding factor since you voted for CA against Aquaman (lmao). The strength difference there is VAST.

Originally posted by h1a8
Both Superman and DD are a lot more powerful than Hercules. So your point is moot anyway.

How much stronger is he over her?

Also you should know that strength isn't the deciding factor since you voted for CA against Aquaman (lmao). The strength difference there is VAST. I disagree.

Stronger.


Cap's skill advantage is that much greater than Aquaman's to negate the strength advantage which isn't the case here.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I disagree.

Stronger.


Cap's skill advantage is that much greater than Aquaman's to negate the strength advantage which isn't the case here.

No you don't. You just don't want it to be true that's all. Feats don't lie.

20% stronger, twice as strong? Give me an estimate of what you feel.


Aquaman is quite skilled in h2h combat (not as much as Cap though) but his strength is vastly greater and would do much better than say classic kingpin or sabretooth. The strength difference in WW's and Herc's case is very small (I believe she is stronger though) but the speed difference is even greater than the skill difference in the Cap vs. Aquaman case and the skill difference is significant too. So you are proven to be marvel bias and your opinion can not be trusted here.

Originally posted by h1a8
No you don't. You just don't want it to be true that's all. Feats don't lie.

20% stronger, twice as strong? Give me an estimate of what you feel.


Aquaman is quite skilled in h2h combat (not as much as Cap though) but his strength is vastly greater and would do much better than say classic kingpin or sabretooth. The strength difference in WW's and Herc's case is very small (I believe she is stronger though) but the speed difference is even greater than the skill difference in the Cap vs. Aquaman case and the skill difference is significant too. So you are proven to be marvel bias and your opinion can not be trusted here. Feats are usually exclusive so no basis for comparison.

Dunno, stronger.

Cap is a Lot more skilled.


Herc is stronger and more durable hence why he wins. You don't read comics hence your ignorance.

Originally posted by h1a8
Strength-WW or equals
Skill-WW
Agility-WW
Reflexes-WW
Speed-WW by a lot

How does Herc win in your opinion?
Well I disagree with your list for a start plus those aren't the only relevant criteria in a fight. Herc is stronger, more durable, just as skilled imo, and will play dirty if he has to. His preferred style of g-r wrestling is also a perfect counter against Diana's close range hand speed advantage. Some of Marvels most powerful bricks i.e. Thor, Sentry, Hulk etc have fought Hercules and he has always been able to hold his own. He arguably got the better of Sentry, has never been ko'd by Hulk at full strength and has defeated Thor who has 1000's years of battle experience in h2h combat. I would put all of those guys above Diana if they ever were to fight 1v1.

H2H Wondy vs Herc?

This ends in sex.

They're not related since their from 2 different universes..
shifty

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
H2H Wondy vs Herc?

This ends in sex.

They're not related since their from 2 different universes..
shifty
Not like it matters. Immortals are incestuous anyway.

Oh and Diana still wins.

Originally posted by The Sorrow
Well I disagree with your list for a start plus those aren't the only relevant criteria in a fight. Herc is stronger, more durable, just as skilled imo, and will play dirty if he has to. His preferred style of g-r wrestling is also a perfect counter against Diana's close range hand speed advantage. Some of Marvels most powerful bricks i.e. Thor, Sentry, Hulk etc have fought Hercules and he has always been able to hold his own. He arguably got the better of Sentry, has never been ko'd by Hulk at full strength and has defeated Thor who has 1000's years of battle experience in h2h combat. I would put all of those guys above Diana if they ever were to fight 1v1.

Herc is not stronger or more durable than Diana. Not at all. I'm only entertaining the silly notion because it is moot anyway. Wrestling skills are irrelevant when someone is vastly faster and more agile than you. They would simply outmaneuver you (a slug). We use full capacity on a forum fight. Diana will have her speed and reflexes here. There is no writer here to turn them off.

Experience is almost meaningless in a comic. Thor has thousands of years experience and CA is still far more skilled than him. Post Crisis WW has actually lived for more than a thousand years and in another arc has fought along Superman in a dimension for over a thousand years. WW is far more skilled than Hercules. There is no way you can read comics and think they have comparable skill. He fights like a C class fighter where WW is easily an A class martial artist. She is more skilled at kicking, parrying, countering, blocking, use of pressure points, etc. That's also a moot point since if someone is vastly faster with vastly better reflexes then skill is irrelevant (flash or quicksilver for example). LOL, there is no such thing as fighting dirty, everything fair in a fight.


WW has matched Superman (who is far more powerful than Hercules), DD, CM, Konvict, etc. and did well. She has taken hits from the best of them (more powerful than Hercules) without being koed. She has managed to seriously hurt or damage beings greater than Hercules too. She is mentioned and shown to be stronger than D.C. Hercules (who achieved the same trials of Marvel Hercules) and is considered the best chance to stop Superman if he ever went rogue. Batman has said that she is the best melee fighter in the world.

Originally posted by zopzop
Not like it matters. Immortals are incestuous anyway.

Oh and Diana still wins.
http://comicaddicts.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Heracles-rapist.jpg

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
She may not be able to "shut them off" but she clearly is able to hold back to an incredible degree or she would not even be able to spar with characters like Black Canary. To imply that she is using her super strength or speed in these sparring sessions is equally as baseless as implying that she can just shut them off. It is entirely counter-intuitive.

I know that some will not be satisfied until we see a depowered WW doing some of the same things, but I don't think the BC fight can be so easily discarded. Dinah's thoughts in that scene clearly show that WW is not using her powers. Now, you can of course argue what constitutes her "powers" or to what degree she is holding back. Given the characters portrayals during those sessions and the consistent praise WW has received from characters like Batman and BC, it is quite logical to conclude that her skill level is very high. How high? Again, that is debatable, but I would not give anyone but a dedicated martial artist an advantage over her in skill.

As for this fight, even if you rate them equal in strength and skill, or rate Hercules slightly stronger, she still has an overwhelming speed advantage. That's not even factoring in flight. She wins a solid majority.

I never said she wasn't holding back. She'd have to hold back for it even to be a fight. I wasn't implying that she was using her speed or strength in those matches; my bad if it came across that way.

And at no point was I saying anything about downplaying Diana's martial skill.

Originally posted by h1a8
How would you explain a human being able to block a strike from a being who can lift more than a million tons? With her ftl reflexes does she see batman moving in super statue motion and purposely gets hit by him?

How would you explain all that? Where are her powers? Does she pretend or do the writer ignore them?

Now no one argued or suggested that she cuts her own powers off (she doesn't). The writer does.

It would be very hard to explain how the strikes of a being who can lift in access of millions of tons are blocked by human opponents?

Also when fighting she doesn't see batman or lady shiva moving in super statue slow motion where she purposely gets hit by them.

...What?

Originally posted by Q99
The fact that Dinah, when fighting her, notes she isn't using her powers, and that when she and Batman spar, he uses moves that only would work against non-superhuman foes and they work (and then they talk out what'd happen next), and the performance is totally different from when they fight with powers (wherein Diana pwns him), is a fair bit of evidence for it if you ask me.

So Diana can turn off her durability? Like I said, if you have a scan that proves she can consciously shut off her powers, show me, please.

And again, I seem to have to say it, at no point was I attempting to downplay her skill.

========

lol @ Cap beating Aquaman, though.

Originally posted by h1a8
Herc is not stronger or more durable than Diana. Not at all. I'm only entertaining the silly notion because it is moot anyway. Wrestling skills are irrelevant when someone is vastly faster and more agile than you. They would simply outmaneuver you (a slug). We use full capacity on a forum fight. Diana will have her speed and reflexes here. There is no writer here to turn them off.

Experience is almost meaningless in a comic. Thor has thousands of years experience and CA is still far more skilled than him. Post Crisis WW has actually lived for more than a thousand years and in another arc has fought along Superman in a dimension for over a thousand years. WW is far more skilled than Hercules. There is no way you can read comics and think they have comparable skill. He fights like a C class fighter where WW is easily an A class martial artist. She is more skilled at kicking, parrying, countering, blocking, use of pressure points, etc. That's also a moot point since if someone is vastly faster with vastly better reflexes then skill is irrelevant (flash or quicksilver for example). LOL, there is no such thing as fighting dirty, everything fair in a fight.


WW has matched Superman (who is far more powerful than Hercules), DD, CM, Konvict, etc. and did well. She has taken hits from the best of them (more powerful than Hercules) without being koed. She has managed to seriously hurt or damage beings greater than Hercules too. She is mentioned and shown to be stronger than D.C. Hercules (who achieved the same trials of Marvel Hercules) and is considered the best chance to stop Superman if he ever went rogue. Batman has said that she is the best melee fighter in the world.
Being able to match beings like the Hulk and Thor on a regular basis is absolutely proof he is at least as strong as she is. He definitely handles a punch better than she does, even while mortal and at half-strength was able to take an extended beating from an angry Hulk. Wonder Woman has been damn near one-shotted by Superman, no high herald has ever done that to Herc afaik. You certainly won't see him being matched by metas at full strength, WW durability is up and down at the best of times.

Again you're only focusing on certain skills while ignoring the multitude of other factors in h2h. Her being a better martial artist is all well and good in theory but tbh she doesn't use it anywhere near as frequently as you seem to be implying. You seem to believe she is Batman, with Superman's physicality, I can assure you neither are true. Thor has held his own with Captain America in mortal form, yet has admitted on panel that Herc is better skilled in h2h than he. Just because they prefer to use brawn doesn't mean they aren't skilled melee fighters.

When has Wonder Woman matched Superman?
Hmmm ok so she does something EVERY hero including Herc does and occasionally punches above her weight class? Amazing. Diana has the natural speed/agility advantage plus the bracers so she would probably land more hits initially, but his wrestling and knowledge of submission holds would offset that, plus he has the damage soak/durability and likely strength edge.

Originally posted by The Sorrow
Being able to match beings like the Hulk and Thor on a regular basis is absolutely proof he is at least as strong as she is. He definitely handles a punch better than she does, even while mortal and at half-strength was able to take an extended beating from an angry Hulk. Wonder Woman has been damn near one-shotted by Superman, no high herald has ever done that to Herc afaik. You certainly won't see him being matched by metas at full strength, WW durability is up and down at the best of times.

Again you're only focusing on certain skills while ignoring the multitude of other factors in h2h. Her being a better martial artist is all well and good in theory but tbh she doesn't use it anywhere near as frequently as you seem to be implying. You seem to believe she is Batman, with Superman's physicality, I can assure you neither are true. Thor has held his own with Captain America in mortal form, yet has admitted on panel that Herc is better skilled in h2h than he. Just because they prefer to use brawn doesn't mean they aren't skilled melee fighters.

When has Wonder Woman matched Superman?
Hmmm ok so she does something EVERY hero including Herc does and occasionally punches above her weight class? Amazing. Diana has the natural speed/agility advantage plus the bracers so she would probably land more hits initially, but his wrestling and knowledge of submission holds would offset that, plus he has the damage soak/durability and likely strength edge.


If none of that convinces you then this will:


Her speed is vastly greater and she has moved and reacted with light speed.
Hercules isn't even as fast as a bullet. The speed of light is more than 500,000 times that of a bullet. That means she can move 5ft before he moves 1/1000 of an inch. She can react to 99.99% of his attacks and movements.
The fight is a serious stomp in her favor. The only way Hercules has a chance is if we neuter her speed and agility to nearly his levels.


The rest of the post is just in response to yours.

"I disagree. We use full capacity here.
She matched beings physically greater than Thor or Hulk though. She is stronger than D.C. Hercules for crying out loud (who achieved the same labors). She is the strongest female character in D.C.
Superman>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>any of these characters in physical strength. And she survived a sun amp punch from Superman that sent her from the sun to earth in hardly no time.

Hercules HAVE NOT SHOWN the level of skill as WW has. Look at the way he punches, kicks, etc. and look at the way she kicks, parry's, counters, use agility, etc. In a h2h fight in equal bodies she would treat him like a child. Hercules doesn't really have better damage soak than her. WWH 2 pieced him easily and gave him a pumpkin head. She has taken punishment from top tiers on many occasions and was fine. She is a warrior.
Also damage soak is meaningless when two characters are close in it and when pressure points come in to play.

WW is not as strong as Superman but she is within the vicinity. WW is just as skilled as Batman if not more. Batman even said she is the best melee fighter in the world.

Diana is very competent at grappling. But that is moot since being vastly faster and more agile than your opponent makes wrestling skills irrelevant. With her speed and agillity She can simply outmaneuver Hercules in a wrestling match if she wanted to.

She can also prevent the fight from being a wrestling fight. Have you ever seen in MMA a superior wrestler get stomped by a superior striker (who is faster and has better agility)?"

Originally posted by The Sorrow
Being able to match beings like the Hulk and Thor on a regular basis is absolutely proof he is at least as strong as she is. He definitely handles a punch better than she does, even while mortal and at half-strength was able to take an extended beating from an angry Hulk. Wonder Woman has been damn near one-shotted by Superman, no high herald has ever done that to Herc afaik. You certainly won't see him being matched by metas at full strength, WW durability is up and down at the best of times.

Again you're only focusing on certain skills while ignoring the multitude of other factors in h2h. Her being a better martial artist is all well and good in theory but tbh she doesn't use it anywhere near as frequently as you seem to be implying. You seem to believe she is Batman, with Superman's physicality, I can assure you neither are true. Thor has held his own with Captain America in mortal form, yet has admitted on panel that Herc is better skilled in h2h than he. Just because they prefer to use brawn doesn't mean they aren't skilled melee fighters.

When has Wonder Woman matched Superman?
Hmmm ok so she does something EVERY hero including Herc does and occasionally punches above her weight class? Amazing. Diana has the natural speed/agility advantage plus the bracers so she would probably land more hits initially, but his wrestling and knowledge of submission holds would offset that, plus he has the damage soak/durability and likely strength edge.

He made some fair points, but I still lean heavily towards Diana.

Originally posted by h1a8
If none of that convinces you then this will:


Her speed is vastly greater and she has moved and reacted with light speed.
Hercules isn't even as fast as a bullet. The speed of light is more than 500,000 times that of a bullet. That means she can move 5ft before he moves 1/1000 of an inch. She can react to 99.99% of his attacks and movements.
The fight is a serious stomp in her favor. The only way Hercules has a chance is if we neuter her speed and agility to nearly his levels.


The rest of the post is just in response to yours.

"I disagree. We use full capacity here.
She matched beings physically greater than Thor or Hulk though. She is stronger than D.C. Hercules for crying out loud (who achieved the same labors). She is the strongest female character in D.C.
Superman>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>any of these characters in physical strength. And she survived a sun amp punch from Superman that sent her from the sun to earth in hardly no time.

Hercules HAVE NOT SHOWN the level of skill as WW has. Look at the way he punches, kicks, etc. and look at the way she kicks, parry's, counters, use agility, etc. In a h2h fight in equal bodies she would treat him like a child. Hercules doesn't really have better damage soak than her. WWH 2 pieced him easily and gave him a pumpkin head. She has taken punishment from top tiers on many occasions and was fine. She is a warrior.
Also damage soak is meaningless when two characters are close in it and when pressure points come in to play.

WW is not as strong as Superman but she is within the vicinity. WW is just as skilled as Batman if not more. Batman even said she is the best melee fighter in the world.

Diana is very competent at grappling. But that is moot since being vastly faster and more agile than your opponent makes wrestling skills irrelevant. With her speed and agillity She can simply outmaneuver Hercules in a wrestling match if she wanted to.

She can also prevent the fight from being a wrestling fight. Have you ever seen in MMA a superior wrestler get stomped by a superior striker (who is faster and has better agility)?"
Only thing you have convinced me of is that you don't read many comics, at least not many Marvel ones. Where has Wonder Woman fought at lightspeed? I would like to see that.

We use full capacity yes but we don't ignore lower end showings either or act as though she fights like Batman and Flash in every fight because she doesn't. At all. Your calculations are great but mean nothing in a comicbook fight, and aren't necessary. You are pretty much dealing with gods here who are blessed with superspeed as standard, Hercules has reacted to blitzes from the Sentry while having his back turned and fighting someone else so he is far from slow. His top speed is undefined so I'm not sure where this imaginary ceiling you created that limits him to being slower than bullets has come from.

Again who has she MATCHED (not fought actually matched) that is stronger than Hulk? WWH was the only time Hulk has really outclassed Hercules, but the same can be said of Clark and Diana. When he really cuts loose she is nowhere near his strength level and the instance you brought up she passed out from one punch. Not a great example, hell he even broke her damn wrists. Hercules got up and took his licks like a man without fighting back, I'm not even a massive Herc fan but his damage soak has always been very impressive. While hers is impressive sometimes, others it is very suspect.

Talented wrestlers in MMA usually do beat guys who can outstrike them. Even Anderson Silva has problems with wrestlers and he is one of the most elusive fighters I've ever seen in the sport. Hercules is tough enough to withstand her punches and bring the fight into his realm if need be:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/119153/2767166-16e6ccafbc_ga.jpeg
(Above scan shows he clearly isn't slow either)

Skill is a wash really a lot of what Diana has done Herc likely has a similar kind of feat anyway. His more impressive damage soak, arguably greater strength and ability to neutralize her slight striking and speed edge with his style makes this a very close fight indeed. I used to sleep on Herc a lot but he is a beast and easily on Thor's level, he just doesn't have weather manip, a trans/skyfather level weapon at his beck and call or anywhere near as many appearances.

Herc strength fts are greater than Wonder Womans.

Originally posted by zopzop
Kneeing people in the nuts, pulling hair, etc.. He fights like b|tch. He fights like someone trained to kill in war-time.

IRL combat disciplines use any means necessary to subdue your opponent.

Originally posted by NemeBro
He fights like someone trained to kill in war-time.

IRL combat disciplines use any means necessary to subdue your opponent.
No he doesn't. Thor does, yet I've never seen him (even when he was absolutely bloodlusted by Warrior's Madness) stoop to Hercules' lows (pulling hair, kneeing in the crotch, etc..) to win a fight.

He doesn't do that because he isn't as good a fighter as Hercules obviously.

Originally posted by zopzop
No he doesn't. Thor does, yet I've never seen him (even when he was absolutely bloodlusted by Warrior's Madness) stoop to Hercules' lows (pulling hair, kneeing in the crotch, etc..) to win a fight. You obviously never seen the Herc/Thor fight then when both were in opposite costumes

Herc fights to win. Which is why he can kick the shit out of someone like Sentry in a comic while laughing at his speed.

That's a variable not many people on his level have.

Originally posted by carver9
Herc strength fts are greater than Wonder Womans.

That's debatable. But Herc strength feats are greater than Thanos. Is he stronger than Thanos?

It's an irrelevant issue anyway since both can hurt each other and it won't come to strength here (speed, skill, agility, reflexes, experience, etc.)

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
You obviously never seen the Herc/Thor fight then when both were in opposite costumes

Herc fights to win. Which is why he can kick the shit out of someone like Sentry in a comic while laughing at his speed.

That's a variable not many people on his level have.


And win "Hercules" did in their opposite costume fight.

Originally posted by zopzop
No he doesn't. Thor does, yet I've never seen him (even when he was absolutely bloodlusted by Warrior's Madness) stoop to Hercules' lows (pulling hair, kneeing in the crotch, etc..) to win a fight. That is why Thor will always be a small, unknown god.

Hercules for the win.

Originally posted by NemeBro
He doesn't do that because he isn't as good a fighter as Hercules obviously.


Originally posted by Branlor Swift
You obviously never seen the Herc/Thor fight then when both were in opposite costumes

Herc fights to win. Which is why he can kick the shit out of someone like Sentry in a comic while laughing at his speed.

That's a variable not many people on his level have.
That fight was a joke. And Herc "fights to win" by resorting to b|tch tactics.

Thor is warrior that's never stooped that low and he still holds his own and wins vs A-list bricks.
Originally posted by Zack Fair
That is why Thor will always be a small, unknown god.

Hercules for the win.
That's why Herc's series was canceled and Thor still has his own plus makes cameos in multiple other series?

Originally posted by zopzop
That fight was a joke. And Herc "fights to win" by resorting to b|tch tactics.

Thor is warrior that's never stooped that low and he still holds his own and wins vs A-list bricks.

http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsHercules44.jpg.html
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsHercules45.jpg

Never stooped so low.

Whatever you want to call it, it's still within his capabilities in any thread. Boo hoo he fights cheap. That's not going to change a thing.
Herc kicks WW straight in the box and then grabs her hair and smashes her face into his knee.

Easy win.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsHercules44.jpg.html
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsHercules45.jpg

Never stooped so low.

I'm aware of that fight and it's a joke. Literally.




She's too fast for him and since this fight isn't taking place in his ridiculous comic, he's phucked. Diana 10/10!

It is painfully obvious that zopzop is severely biased against Hercules.

Hercules fights dirty because he is a warrior. Real life pankration fighters in ancient Greece would rip your ****ing dick off if they could, they would bite, eye gouge, pull hair, etc.

Pankration was a blood sport. Just because some little men are too little to stomach such brutal combat maneuvers does not make the skill of those who use them lesser.

Originally posted by zopzop

I'm aware of that fight and it's a joke. Literally.




She's too fast for him and since this fight isn't taking place in his ridiculous comic, he's phucked. Diana 10/10! Originally posted by zopzop
Thor is warrior that's never stooped that low

Herc was reacting to Sentry easily. Who as we all know, is way faster than WW

Originally posted by NemeBro
It is painfully obvious that zopzop is severely biased against Hercules.

Hercules fights dirty because he is a warrior. Real life pankration fighters in ancient Greece would rip your ****ing dick off if they could, they would bite, eye gouge, pull hair, etc.

Pankration was a blood sport. Just because some little men are too little to stomach such brutal combat maneuvers does not make the skill of those who use them lesser.
Fight took place in his joke of a comic. Sentry would annihilate Hercules if he was anywhere near serious.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Herc was reacting to Sentry easily. Who as we all know, is way faster than WW
Yes? Diana is an Amazon Warrior. I'm sure she knows all about various Greek fighting styles, so that won't save him. Diana wins 10/10.

Originally posted by zopzop
Fight took place in his joke of a comic. Sentry would annihilate Hercules if he was anywhere near serious. So we should just ignore everything that happened in his comics?

And Hercules was nowhere near serious as well. What does that leave us with? Fact is Sentry tried to use his speed and failed. He's way faster than WW.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
So we should just ignore everything that happened in his comics?
That involves Herc in any sort of fight? Yeah. It's like Deadpool and She-Hulk all over again.


The fight was a joke which isn't surprising considering what issue it took place in. Sentry was fighting like a moron. We've seen what Sentry is capable of even without the Void's influence.

Originally posted by zopzop

That involves Herc in any sort of fight? Yeah. It's like Deadpool and She-Hulk all over again.


The fight was a joke which isn't surprising considering what issue it took place in. Sentry was fighting like a moron. We've seen what Sentry is capable of even without the Void's influence. We should ignore what 3 years of comics just because you feel it was a joke? Stop trolling

And Hercules was literally playing around.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
We should ignore what 3 years of comics just because you feel it was a joke? Stop trolling

And Hercules was literally playing around.
No one is trolling Herc/Deadpool/She-Hulk get away with crap in their own comics that they would NEVER do in any other series.

Deadpool is self explanatory. She-Hulk and her 4th wall attacks, She-hulk foo bullsh|t, etc... And Herc with his usual crap.

Don't believe me? Make a "Serious" Sentry (no Void) vs "playing around" Hercules thread and see how that goes.

LOL@WW winning 10/10

Originally posted by zopzop
No one is trolling Herc/Deadpool/She-Hulk get away with crap in their own comics that they would NEVER do in any other series.

Deadpool is self explanatory. She-Hulk and her 4th wall attacks, She-hulk foo bullsh|t, etc... And Herc with his usual crap.

Don't believe me? Make a "Serious" Sentry (no Void) vs "playing around" Hercules thread and see how that goes. You're saying we should ignore 3 years of comics just because you think it's a joke. That's bullshit and you know it.
Same with ignoring Deadpool and Shulk's comics for that matter.

I never said Sentry was fighting serious. I just said both were screwing around, and Herc won.
That also has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the book either.

Plus, I'm not sure that thread would turn into your 'favor' anyway.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
You're saying we should ignore 3 years of comics just because you think it's a joke. That's bullshit and you know it.
Same with ignoring Deadpool and Shulk's comics for that matter.

I never said Sentry was fighting serious. I just said both were screwing around, and Herc won.
That also has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the book either.

Plus, I'm not sure that thread would turn into your 'favor' anyway.
It's absolutely not bullsh|t. She Hulk using "She Hulk Foo" to stomp Abomination in her series yet she didn't think of resorting to that awesome fighting style when Frenzy was kicking her sh|t in in AvX?

Sentry wasn't joking around in that idiotic Hercules issue where Herc was clowning around and making a fool of him. Yet we've seen a "non Void" Sentry no sell Thing's punches and grasp and shatter Terrax's weapon.

Go ahead and make that Sentry vs Hercules thread with those stips :
"Serious" Sentry (no Void) vs "Kidding Around" Immortal Hercules (no Mace) and let's see how long that stays open.

OK, that's enough of your usual shit. Ignoring huge amounts of comics because they are jokes to you is now a serious argument on the forums. Ugh

But, I don't think you read that issue if you think Sentry was actually 'serious'. He even asked if Herc wanted to feel his thousand suns.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
OK, that's enough of your usual shit. Ignoring huge amounts of comics because they are jokes to you is now a serious argument on the forums. Ugh

But, I don't think you read that issue if you think Sentry was actually 'serious'. He even asked if Herc wanted to feel his thousand suns.
Why are you e-raging? Make the thread and we'll see how long it stays open. Better yet, I will, to save you the trouble because you seem to be getting angry over nothing.

Originally posted by zopzop
bawling BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW bawling

That isn't a valid argument.

Originally posted by zopzop
Why are you e-raging? Make the thread and we'll see how long it stays open. Better yet, I will, to save you the trouble because you seem to be getting angry over nothing. I'm not raging, I'm saying everything you're saying is bullshit and you're misinterpreting the comic itself to suit your purpose.

Besides the fact that I'm not creating a duplicate thread.

Originally posted by h1a8
How would you explain a human being able to block a strike from a being who can lift more than a million tons? With her ftl reflexes does she see batman moving in super statue motion and purposely gets hit by him?

How would you explain all that? Where are her powers? Does she pretend or do the writer ignore them?

Now no one argued or suggested that she cuts her own powers off (she doesn't). The writer does.

It would be very hard to explain how the strikes of a being who can lift in access of millions of tons are blocked by human opponents?

Also when fighting she doesn't see batman or lady shiva moving in super statue slow motion where she purposely gets hit by them.

You haven't said anything even remotely new or countered any point. So in the spirit of just repeating ourselves over and over again:
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


So based on absolutely nothing, Wonder Woman is suddenly human level when she faces street level characters in combat? Even when she displays superhuman powers? How do you even expect me to respond to bullshit like this other than with the report button? Glad that I can argue away any low Thor showing by saying he was just inexplicably depowered when discussing shit with you.

Still sticking to Wonder Woman being an A-list fighter (While Hercules/Thor are C-list or whatever) on absolutely nothing? I mean besides being the greatest Amazon warrior because somehow that's conclusive evidence. I like how you side stepped my question on whether that applies to Hercules/Thor though.

Also, comics don't adhere to your ridiculous paper based CBR like standards.

Slim majority to wonder woman. She's definitely faster.

Diana wins. At least as strong and as skilled and way faster.

Originally posted by namorsubby
Slim majority to wonder woman. She's definitely faster. Yah. Not 10/10 though.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Diana wins. At least as strong and as skilled and way faster. Herc is more skilled, more stronger, and more manlier.

He wins more.

Originally posted by The Sorrow
Only thing you have convinced me of is that you don't read many comics, at least not many Marvel ones. Where has Wonder Woman fought at lightspeed? I would like to see that.

We use full capacity yes but we don't ignore lower end showings either or act as though she fights like Batman and Flash in every fight because she doesn't. At all. Your calculations are great but mean nothing in a comicbook fight, and aren't necessary. You are pretty much dealing with gods here who are blessed with superspeed as standard, Hercules has reacted to blitzes from the Sentry while having his back turned and fighting someone else so he is far from slow. His top speed is undefined so I'm not sure where this imaginary ceiling you created that limits him to being slower than bullets has come from.

Again who has she MATCHED (not fought actually matched) that is stronger than Hulk? WWH was the only time Hulk has really outclassed Hercules, but the same can be said of Clark and Diana. When he really cuts loose she is nowhere near his strength level and the instance you brought up she passed out from one punch. Not a great example, hell he even broke her damn wrists. Hercules got up and took his licks like a man without fighting back, I'm not even a massive Herc fan but his damage soak has always been very impressive. While hers is impressive sometimes, others it is very suspect.

Talented wrestlers in MMA usually do beat guys who can outstrike them. Even Anderson Silva has problems with wrestlers and he is one of the most elusive fighters I've ever seen in the sport. Hercules is tough enough to withstand her punches and bring the fight into his realm if need be:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/119153/2767166-16e6ccafbc_ga.jpeg
(Above scan shows he clearly isn't slow either)

Skill is a wash really a lot of what Diana has done Herc likely has a similar kind of feat anyway. His more impressive damage soak, arguably greater strength and ability to neutralize her slight striking and speed edge with his style makes this a very close fight indeed. I used to sleep on Herc a lot but he is a beast and easily on Thor's level, he just doesn't have weather manip, a trans/skyfather level weapon at his beck and call or anywhere near as many appearances.

I didn't claim WW will fight here at lightspeed. If she did then she would be more than 1 million times the speed of Hercules. But she will indeed have her super speed and reflexes though and it would be significant more than his. So instead of a million we can say 100,000, 10,000, 1000, or even a very low 100 times faster than Hercules. Doesn't matter since any of those numbers have the same results.

What does full capacity mean? It means characters are at there standard levels or more (not under). It is accepted that Diana is faster than a bullet as a standard.

Hercules reacting to someone who has super speed doesn't mean he reacted to a super fast object. Characters often don't use their speed in comics. So reacting to them in those situations isn't proof of anything. Hercules has no super speed. Batman is faster than him.

The Superman example is a great one since he was amp and far far far above Hercules and she only got flash koed (not a forum win). Her face was not visible damaged at all. Going by that showing it would be hard to see Hercule damage her face or ko her after a few hits (assuming she let's him hit her).

The problem with MMA wrestling is that both fighters have nearly the same speed wrestling. Diana is so much faster than Hercules that he won't even get a chance to do any moves. She would simply beat him to the punch and out maneuver him. Also, its very hard to explain how he would even grab her when she is vastly faster.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You haven't said anything even remotely new or countered any point. So in the spirit of just repeating ourselves over and over again:


Also, comics don't adhere to your ridiculous paper based CBR like standards. I did counter you since you failed to answer the question.
We don't treat these fights as how they would go down in a comicbook.
This is a forum fight and not a comic one.
We use full capacity here.
We don't use the level of CBR but characters do fight at the best of their ability. There is no writer here to ignore a character's abilities or powers for the sake of the plot.

Originally posted by The Sorrow
Only thing you have convinced me of is that you don't read many comics, at least not many Marvel ones. Where has Wonder Woman fought at lightspeed? I would like to see that.

We use full capacity yes but we don't ignore lower end showings either or act as though she fights like Batman and Flash in every fight because she doesn't. At all. Your calculations are great but mean nothing in a comicbook fight, and aren't necessary. You are pretty much dealing with gods here who are blessed with superspeed as standard, Hercules has reacted to blitzes from the Sentry while having his back turned and fighting someone else so he is far from slow. His top speed is undefined so I'm not sure where this imaginary ceiling you created that limits him to being slower than bullets has come from.

Again who has she MATCHED (not fought actually matched) that is stronger than Hulk? WWH was the only time Hulk has really outclassed Hercules, but the same can be said of Clark and Diana. When he really cuts loose she is nowhere near his strength level and the instance you brought up she passed out from one punch. Not a great example, hell he even broke her damn wrists. Hercules got up and took his licks like a man without fighting back, I'm not even a massive Herc fan but his damage soak has always been very impressive. While hers is impressive sometimes, others it is very suspect.

Talented wrestlers in MMA usually do beat guys who can outstrike them. Even Anderson Silva has problems with wrestlers and he is one of the most elusive fighters I've ever seen in the sport. Hercules is tough enough to withstand her punches and bring the fight into his realm if need be:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/119153/2767166-16e6ccafbc_ga.jpeg
(Above scan shows he clearly isn't slow either)

Skill is a wash really a lot of what Diana has done Herc likely has a similar kind of feat anyway. His more impressive damage soak, arguably greater strength and ability to neutralize her slight striking and speed edge with his style makes this a very close fight indeed. I used to sleep on Herc a lot but he is a beast and easily on Thor's level, he just doesn't have weather manip, a trans/skyfather level weapon at his beck and call or anywhere near as many appearances.

JLA/Avengers more or less got this one right. Wonder Woman started curbstomping him after the two being initially matched, though that was a result of berserker rage more than anything else.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
JLA/Avengers more or less got this one right. Wonder Woman started curbstomping him after the two being initially matched, though that was a result of berserker rage more than anything else. +


It wasn't a curbstomp, JLA/Avengers doesn't count

Originally posted by Omega Vision
JLA/Avengers more or less got this one right. Wonder Woman started curbstomping him after the two being initially matched, though that was a result of berserker rage more than anything else. That was Mortal Herc, and iirc he got the last hit on her

Wonder Woman did fight FTL in WW 219. That whole fight happened in 1 minute 53 seconds.

Originally posted by h1a8
I did counter you since you failed to answer the question.
We don't treat these fights as how they would go down in a comicbook.
This is a forum fight and not a comic one.
We use full capacity here.
We don't use the level of CBR but characters do fight at the best of their ability. There is no writer here to ignore a character's abilities or powers for the sake of the plot.

I'll put it really simply for you. You don't get to decide Wonder Woman was depowered in fights. That's not how things work. If you think it's PIS, call it that but making such decisions is ridiculous. And using it as evidence of her abilities in a human body is even more ridiculous.

You still haven't provided a single piece of evidence that proves Wonder Woman is a class A fighter. Besides claiming being the greatest warrior in your land is enough. Then again you think Hercules is a class C fighter despite being the greatest warrior in Olympus so that's clearly not a sign of ridiculous bias.

Batman has outfought a full powered WW on a couple occasions. One where she was actually bad too.

And she usually has to resort to some form of super strength to overcome him.

She is not in Batman's class of fighter or anywhere near it. Can you imagine Batman with WW's strength? He would not get outfought by a human Batman to say the least.

shut up.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I'll put it really simply for you. You don't get to decide Wonder Woman was depowered in fights. That's not how things work. If you think it's PIS, call it that but making such decisions is ridiculous. And using it as evidence of her abilities in a human body is even more ridiculous.

You still haven't provided a single piece of evidence that proves Wonder Woman is a class A fighter. Besides claiming being the greatest warrior in your land is enough. Then again you think Hercules is a class C fighter despite being the greatest warrior in Olympus so that's clearly not a sign of ridiculous bias. She is class A because of how she fights (her technique and smoothness of application). Fighting ability is subjective and not quantifiable; those with experience are the better judges of it.

So either WW threw a 1 million ton punch or more and a human blocked it
or she threw a human strength level punch and a human blocked it. There is no in-between.

If you say the former then it is silly since no human can exert millions of tons of force (not even in comics).

If you say the latter then it is also silly (but more acceptable) since writer's have written character's power levels down many times.

Does Hercules have any showings of him sparring H2H against the likes of Captain America, Daredevil, BP, you name it?

Holding back =/= actually switching off one's powers.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Holding back =/= actually switching off one's powers.

If you're holding back to entirely human level, what's the difference? She shows none of her reaction speed, physical speed, muscle, etc. when sparing, and her foes fight her with techniques that only work on human-level foes and they can work.


Sure, she can reactivate in an instant, but they're still not in the fight in any sense.



And she usually has to resort to some form of super strength to overcome him.

She is not in Batman's class of fighter or anywhere near it. Can you imagine Batman with WW's strength?

Except when they actually spar, when they're near dead equal...

In Hikateria and League of One, when she does want him down and uses powers, she stomps him. Multiple times in the former.

Originally posted by Q99
If you're holding back to entirely human level, what's the difference? She shows none of her reaction speed, physical speed, muscle, etc. when sparing, and her foes fight her with techniques that only work on human-level foes and they can work.


Sure, she can reactivate in an instant, but they're still not in the fight in any sense.



And she usually has to resort to some form of super strength to overcome him.

She is not in Batman's class of fighter or anywhere near it. Can you imagine Batman with WW's strength?

Except when they actually spar, when they're near dead equal...

In Hikateria and League of One, when she does want him down and uses powers, she stomps him. Multiple times in the former.

So you're saying she can consciously shut off her entire powerset?