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This part I've never really understood. What, exactly, was Darth Sidious's plan with Skywalker?

He knew, and stated so to Yoda, that Vader would eventually surpass him in power by a helluva lot, and as soon as that happens, Palpatine is a dead man.

So, was he just going to kill Anakin when he becomes too powerful? If he was going to do that, why would he work so hard to get an apprentice with that level of potential? Because once Anakin hits his full potential, Sidious is doomed, even if he manages to discover his whole clone-body-hopping essence transfer technique.

This actually applies to every sith of Bane's order in general. Does Darth Bane actually want Zannah to eventually surpass and kill him? Doesn't that sort of give him a belief in a cause beyond himself...sort of contradicts the whole sith self-centered mindset, doesn't it?

Sith always seek to test their power in battle. They find apprentices who have the power to surpass them for the ultimate challenge. Sith have no fear, even in death.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Sith always seek to test their power in battle. They find apprentices who have the power to surpass them for the ultimate challenge. Sith have no fear, even in death.

Yeah, but it's a bit of a futile "test" when your apprentice has the potential to become twice as powerful as you. And Palpatine seemed scared pretty shitless by Windu and Yoda.

Originally posted by Master Han
This part I've never really understood. What, exactly, was Darth Sidious's plan with Skywalker?

He knew, and stated so to Yoda, that Vader would eventually surpass him in power by a helluva lot, and as soon as that happens, Palpatine is a dead man.

So, was he just going to kill Anakin when he becomes too powerful? If he was going to do that, why would he work so hard to get an apprentice with that level of potential? Because once Anakin hits his full potential, Sidious is doomed, even if he manages to discover his whole clone-body-hopping essence transfer technique.

This actually applies to every sith of Bane's order in general. Does Darth Bane actually want Zannah to eventually surpass and kill him? Doesn't that sort of give him a belief in a cause beyond himself...sort of contradicts the whole sith self-centered mindset, doesn't it? Sidious would have killed Anakin if he believed Anakin a threat. If he succeeded it would have proved that Anakin wasn't worthy of being a Dark Lord. If he failed than it would have proved Sidious wasn't fit to lead. Exact same if Anakin tried to off him. Though Palpatine wanted to do with away with the Rule of Two eventually. Sith goal of Jedi eradication and galactic conquest complete, their journey was over. Palpatine wanted to replace all the governors and administration with Dark Side adepts, and essentially reboot a Sith Empire proper, full of Dark Siders who obeyed their master.


But the Rule of Two thing is logically absurd, it's plot-mandated success notwithstanding. One hiccup or accident in the transition process between one master and a new apprentice and that's the Sith extinct for good. Over 1000 years of lineage, something would f*cking happen.

Palpatine was well aware that Skywalker had the potential to become vastly more powerful than him. If he was going to kill him the moment he began to surpass him/threaten him, then it would make the ridiculous lengths he goes to gain Anakin as an apprentice self defeating and pointless. He's excited about the prospect of his apprentice's becoming more powerful than himself. If he didn't want such to be the case, he'd have kept Dooku, who's actually far more powerful politically and economically.

Which then leads to the odd conclusion that Palpatine ultimately puts the ascendancy of the sith, or some pseudo-moral social darwinist code, over his own self preservation...and that just doesn't match up with his whole psychopath, evil-incarnate persona.

The great thing about the EU is that it added some nuance to his character. It wasn't just bad guy does evil things cuz he's evil. He had a higher allegiance to the very concept of power. The idea that someone as powerful as he could be rivaled and surpassed would be thrilling. Power for power's sake, above all else. It's an interesting paradigm to have. Makes the character less simplistic and one-dimensional.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The great thing about the EU is that it added some nuance to his character. It wasn't just bad guy does evil things cuz he's evil. He had a higher allegiance to the very concept of power. The idea that someone as powerful as he could be rivaled and surpassed would be thrilling. Power for power's sake, above all else. It's an interesting paradigm to have. Makes the character less simplistic and one-dimensional.

Actually, it was the EU's interpretation that Sidious's ultimate ambition was the assimilation of the galaxy into his own consciousness, in a galactic-scale of the stunt he pulled on Byss.

It was George and the films that assert Palpatine was willing to sacrifice himself for the "greater good" of the Sith and that, in his own twisted mind, was actually saving the galaxy from corruption and destruction.

I personally loathe the latter given that it is inconsistent with his characteristic cruelty, not to mention his own actions as the source of that corruption and destruction.

I don't mind the dichotomy. An internalized contradiction of behavior vs. intention/ideology. Makes him more interesting.

I do mind it, personally. That sort of weak justification seems antithetical to Sidious, who for all his villainy, never struck me as a deluded Well-Intentioned Extremist like Vader, Dooku, Revan, Caedus, and pretty much every other Sith Lord.

Perhaps at the point of his conversion, but Palpatine of the films should be a complete psychopath only out for his own aggrandizement.

Never been one for the idea that "good intentions" always make for better villains.

I agree. Sidious isn't an idiot who wouldn't notice the inherent contradiction in that thinking.



Also.... lmao, so in canon Sidious' big goal...... is just to copy Vitiates big goal? Thats...... hilariously ironic.

Nah, f*ck good intentions. Selfish intentions that redesign and regulate all life to reach an ultimate that goal is believed to be the pinnacle of existence. It's deranged and megalomaniacal, but shoots just above being the bad guy who likes to do bad things cuz he's the bad guy. That's the film version, and it works for those. EU gives us a chance to explore and add depth to otherwise single-minded, one-dimensional villains.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I agree. Sidious isn't an idiot who wouldn't notice the inherent contradiction in that thinking.



Also.... lmao, so in canon Sidious' big goal...... is just to copy Vitiates big goal? Thats...... hilariously ironic. I was about to say. They just created Palpatine 2.0. Another way that TOR sucks for story.

I just adore the irony that Vitiate is a rather boldfaced copy of Sidious, but because he comes earlier in the timeline, in-universe its actually Sidious whose boldfacedly copying him!

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Nah, f*ck good intentions. Selfish intentions that redesign and regulate all life to reach an ultimate that goal is believed to be the pinnacle of existence. It's deranged and megalomaniacal, but shoots just above being the bad guy who likes to do bad things cuz he's the bad guy. That's the film version, and it works for those. EU gives us a chance to explore and add depth to otherwise single-minded, one-dimensional villains.

wut?

Again, it was the films (not the EU) that alleged Palpatine was an unbelievably warped Well-Intentioned Extremist who believed his Empire would be an improvement over the corrupt Republic. One who's willing to take risks in pursuit of greater allegiance to the Sith order, even at the expense of his own life.

It is the EU that alleges, no, he's a Complete Monster/Neutral Evil psychopath who doesn't give two shits about "greater good." He's taken the natural pursuit of survival to eleven and ruthlessly pursues that which furthers his own aggrandizement.

That kind of fvcked up psyche can be found in the real world as much as a Well-Intentioned Extremist. And I personally think Palpatine works better as a Complete Monster.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I was about to say. They just created Palpatine 2.0. Another way that TOR sucks for story.



I've said it before, I'll say it again. TOR's writers created Vitiate after reading The Dark Empire Sourcebook and hoped to God no one would notice.

We did.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It is the EU that alleges, no, he's a Complete Monster/Neutral Evil psychopath who doesn't give two shits about "greater good." He's taken the natural pursuit of survival to eleven and ruthlessly pursues that which furthers his own aggrandizement.

That kind of fvcked up psyche can be found in the real world as much as a Well-Intentioned Extremist. And I personally think Palpatine works better as a Complete Monster.

'specially in the RotS novel, where he just comes off as a total force of pure evil. He's downright Lovecraftian even.

Did you read in the Battle Bar where I was readinglistening to the audio version of ROTS?

It's rekindled my appreciation for the book, though I'd still give ol' Yoda the nod.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
wut?

Again, it was the films (not the EU) that alleged Palpatine was an unbelievably warped Well-Intentioned Extremist who believed his Empire would be an improvement over the corrupt Republic. One who's willing to take risks in pursuit of greater allegiance to the Sith order, even at the expense of his own life.

It is the EU that alleges, no, he's a Complete Monster/Neutral Evil psychopath who doesn't give two shits about "greater good." He's taken the natural pursuit of survival to eleven and ruthlessly pursues that which furthers his own aggrandizement.

That kind of fvcked up psyche can be found in the real world as much as a Well-Intentioned Extremist. And I personally think Palpatine works better as a Complete Monster. Really? I saw it the other way around. Palpatine's reasons for wanting galactic control are never stated in the films, beyond some off-the-cuff remark about "revenge", and some utterly insincere soundbytes to Retardakin about "peace". Always felt like the bad guy wanting power cuz he wants power cuz he's the bad guy. He does evil and manipulative things just cuz.

And it was the EU who introduced the whole "doing it for the greater good", stop the Yuuzhan Vong, absorb all consciousness in to one entity thus ensuring eternal peace in the most grotesque of fashions.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Really? I saw it the other way around. Palpatine's reasons for wanting galactic control are never stated in the films, beyond some off-the-cuff remark about "revenge", and some utterly insincere soundbytes to Retardakin about "peace". Always felt like the bad guy wanting power cuz he wants power cuz he's the bad guy. He does evil and manipulative things just cuz.

According to Lucas's ROTS commentary and The Revenge of the Sith Visual Dictionary, Palpatine's "peace" and shit were apparently genuine.

I choose to interpret it as you did: a line of bullshit fed to Anakin in order to complete his transformation.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And it was the EU who introduced the whole "doing it for the greater good", stop the Yuuzhan Vong, absorb all consciousness in to one entity thus ensuring eternal peace in the most grotesque of fashions.

The former always struck me as the ego-driven actions of a bully who didn't want another to intrude upon his playground.

The latter registered as, again, the narcissistic sociopath who desperately seeks apotheosis.

Yeah, f*ck that commentary. If that was Lucas' intentions than he should have made it clear in the film.


I prefer the latter. Add some warped, f*cked up messiah complex to that. Makes for a way more fun character to explore.

I always took the Vong thing as "**** y'all, this is my galaxy!"

"Conquer ma galaxy?! Shiiiit, ain't nobody got time fo' that."

Originally posted by The_Tempest
According to Lucas's ROTS commentary and The Revenge of the Sith Visual Dictionary, Palpatine's "peace" and shit were apparently genuine.

I choose to interpret it as you did: a line of bullshit fed to Anakin in order to complete his transformation.


I don't remember what the ROTS Dictionary said, but I kinda remember the commentary, and I believe Lucas said something along the lines of "Palpatine claims he wanted peace, which might be true, but the cost of it was too much." So I always took that as Lucas trying to get the audience to look at it from what may have been Anakin's perspective, hence the word "might." Also, IIRC, in the featurette, Becoming Sidious, Lucas says Palpatine represents the devil, being pure evil and is only in it for power.

Either Lucas was interpreting his commentary statement from may have been Anakin's POV, or there seems to be a contradiction, which wouldn't be surprising.

Edit: found it.

GjdycGgeaIY


It's towards the beginning at about 0:38.

Palpatine's wanting peace is kind of silly given that the galaxy has effectively been at peace for 1000 years.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Actually, it was the EU's interpretation that Sidious's ultimate ambition was the assimilation of the galaxy into his own consciousness, in a galactic-scale of the stunt he pulled on Byss.

It was George and the films that assert Palpatine was willing to sacrifice himself for the "greater good" of the Sith and that, in his own twisted mind, was actually saving the galaxy from corruption and destruction.

I personally loathe the latter given that it is inconsistent with his characteristic cruelty, not to mention his own actions as the source of that corruption and destruction.

Why would you loathe the latter, when it is the precise reason why Palpatine prevailed where his predecessors failed?

Palpatine for all his arrogance and numerous character flaws, was cultured, refined you could even say holy (in a self righteous sought of way).

Ultimately he chose a Jedi to be his apprentice because only a Jedi could possess those refined qualities. He wanted Anakin to be even more significant than him, to surpass him, if possible. He would have wanted to see the ultimate evolution of the Sith occur through him, and if not him, an even worthier apprentice (if it was Vader's destiny to bring about the ultimate fulfillment of the Sith faith).

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I don't remember what the ROTS Dictionary said, but I kinda remember the commentary, and I believe Lucas said something along the lines of "Palpatine claims he wanted peace, which might be true, but the cost of it was too much." So I always took that as Lucas trying to get the audience to look at it from what may have been Anakin's perspective, hence the word "might." Also, IIRC, in the featurette, Becoming Sidious, Lucas says Palpatine represents the devil, being pure evil and is only in it for power.

Either Lucas was interpreting his commentary statement from may have been Anakin's POV, or there seems to be a contradiction, which wouldn't be surprising.

Edit: found it.

GjdycGgeaIY


It's towards the beginning at about 0:38.

If Palaptine is like the devil then that supports the idea that he was also holy, and would welcome his demise if the apprentice proved to be a greater master of darkness than he.

Wait, were does it say Sidious wanted to turn the Galaxy into a dark side nexus like Byss and absorbing everyone's consciousness? Was it in the DE sourcebook?

to my understanding no...but to simply control the blade,..at his back...
no manipulate the blade at his back...I've always found Vader lacking..

Palpatine had no intention of passing the touch,Vader would have forever
been his misguided apprentice. even if he didn't have that Obi wan
accident. if he hadn't made that mistake against Obi Wan,he would

surely had a much worse accident against Palpatine.
young skywalker would have died or remade into half man half machine.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
to my understanding no...but to simply control the blade,..at his back...
no manipulate the blade at his back...I've always found Vader lacking..

Palpatine had no intention of passing the touch,Vader would have forever
been his misguided apprentice. even if he didn't have that Obi wan
accident. if he hadn't made that mistake against Obi Wan,he would

surely had a much worse accident against Palpatine.
young skywalker would have died or remade into half man half machine.

Anakin wasn't so foolish. If he'd defeated Obi Wan he would have been an even greater Sith. Beating Obi Wan channeling the living force is no mean fit.

Anakin was channeling the Dark Side not the Living Force.

I think he's referring to Obi Wan.

oh my bad,and I meant torch,typing too fast..lol...
thanks Master Han.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Wait, were does it say Sidious wanted to turn the Galaxy into a dark side nexus like Byss and absorbing everyone's consciousness? Was it in the DE sourcebook?

I've heard that source, but IDK where.

Well, in RotS, he seems to want Vader to eventually overthrow and succeed him. Ditto for Galen Marek in TFU. Ditto for Luke in RotJ, even after he had mastered essence transfer. Then, in DE, he apparently wants to absorb the galaxy into his own consciousness or something...but he still takes Luke as his apprentice. Why would he take as an apprentice someone with greater potential than himself, if he wants to live forever?

Originally posted by The Merchant
Wait, were does it say Sidious wanted to turn the Galaxy into a dark side nexus like Byss and absorbing everyone's consciousness? Was it in the DE sourcebook?

I'd recommend reading "The Apotheosis of Palpatine" by the long-vanished Publius aka Julius Sykes. Great article.

http://www.cse.usf.edu/~pnguyen7/rts.pdf

^ Page 10.

I wish our patriarch was sexy like a model..But george gotta look and sound like a nerd.

I felt that while he cared about sith ascendancy, he didn't view it as 'saving' the galaxy. I don't think any version of him felt that- Krayt and Vader did, but they're different.

I think he more took it as the ultimately "We're superior." A Sith works to make more powerful Sith. This is why the Sith won in the end. This was at the core of his training, and etc.. There may be some piece as a side-effect, but purely under Sith terms, and not as a goal (and while technically not a war, I doubt we'd find it the least bit preferable to war). His goal is Sith and his means are Sith, and he will settle for nothing less.


The whole 'devour everything' thing was all Clone Palps who, interestingly, seemed to have different motives.

No. He didn't.

Well, we've got two motives, one of which we've only seen Clone Palpatine pursue and was only mentioned in the Dark Empire sourcebook, and the other we've only seen pre-death Palpatine pursue. Looks like different motives to me.

Palpatine saw the whole Skylwaker family is no more than an asset, a means to an end. He wasn't that cunning to control an entire family of super Force sensitives. He was a fool to think he could.

Palpatine DOES want vader to overthrow him, or at least take over. He thinks his plan is far more important than himself. That is the point that makes him so powerful and so important... Same thing happened when he taunted luke....

He wanted luke to kill him with HATE so he would go over the top and become the evil that palpatine wanted....

He wants the sith to have peace. The only way for sith to have peace is for the jedi or any opposing faction to be dead. Peace doesn't mean motionless, just means no opposition, no fear of loosing.... pure power.

I disagree...if he wanted Anakin to rule,then Why pursue Eternal Life?
then if he wanted peace then there would be a fear of loosing power ,
sooner or later the apprentice wants to become Master...

Besides Sith and Peace don't sound right anyway...
Peace is a lie,
There is only passion,
through passion I gain strength ,
through strength I gain power,
through power I gain victory
through victory ,my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me .

There is no peace for a Sith as long as they allow themselves to be weakened by infighting....
Palpatine didn't want peace...he wanted to destroy the Jedi and have unlimited power!!!

you kno rule the galaxy forever as Emperor...where was Vader in this......
second in command and apprentice to the emperor .

For Vader it was just an illusion...to over throw Sids.
Sids won't give up his power, to pre suit or peak suit . because in that state .....
Anakin /Vader is just not powerful enough to take the mantle from Sids .

It was never meant or promised to Anakin,just enough to bait him to the dark side .....

Palps dabbled with the idea of eternal life, but deep down he knew it was beyond him while he still needed finite vessels.

His faith in the dark side was his ultimate weakness.

He initially wanted or intended Vader to succeed him - a young powerful Jedi, conceived by the living force - he was any force masters dream of an apprentice. But plans can change, Vader could never release himself from - justifiable - crushing guilt.

Originally posted by Master Han
This part I've never really understood. What, exactly, was Darth Sidious's plan with Skywalker?

He knew, and stated so to Yoda, that Vader would eventually surpass him in power by a helluva lot, and as soon as that happens, Palpatine is a dead man.

So, was he just going to kill Anakin when he becomes too powerful? If he was going to do that, why would he work so hard to get an apprentice with that level of potential? Because once Anakin hits his full potential, Sidious is doomed, even if he manages to discover his whole clone-body-hopping essence transfer technique.

This actually applies to every sith of Bane's order in general. Does Darth Bane actually want Zannah to eventually surpass and kill him? Doesn't that sort of give him a belief in a cause beyond himself...sort of contradicts the whole sith self-centered mindset, doesn't it? The answer is very simple. EU writers and George Lucas have vastly different interpretations of the character. Moreover, Lucas gave the character's motivation much thought, hence him waiting peace despite there already being peace (as a direct result of his order's absence).