Completing the Skyfather tier...

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TheLordofMurder
Skyfather Low:
Skyfather Mid:
Skyfather High:


Its common knowledge who some of the High End Skyfathers are: Odin, Zeus, Surtur...

However, there is no clear consensus on who rounds out the Low and Mid portion of the Skyfather tier...

So lets have it...who belongs in the Low and Mid portion of the Skyfather tier?

zopzop
At their absolute best, Grandmaster and Thanos can be listed under Low Skyfather. The "Wild One" is anywhere from low to mid skyfather, at least, seeing as how he absolutely humiliated Classic Strange/Prof Hulk/Namor/Silver Surfer/Shanzaar (sorcerer supreme of the Strange Matter universe).

eaebiakuya
What about DP Tyrant ?

zopzop
Originally posted by eaebiakuya
What about DP Tyrant ?
There is no DP Tyrant despite what the forum thinks. And Tyrant is high skyfather, at the minimum.

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by zopzop
At their absolute best, Grandmaster and Thanos can be listed under Low Skyfather. The "Wild One" is anywhere from low to mid skyfather, at least, seeing as how he absolutely humiliated Classic Strange/Prof Hulk/Namor/Silver Surfer/Shanzaar (sorcerer supreme of the Strange Matter universe).

You know, I agree with this as pertains to the Grandmaster and Thanos... thumb up

On average they both are High Trans, but as their best, they both creep into the Skyfather tier...

I think Seth would range from Low to Mid Skyfather; the Serpent should be in that range as well...

eaebiakuya
Gorr and Future Thor from the same arc ?

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Gorr and Future Thor from the same arc ?

Where exactly would you put them? Low or Mid?

zopzop
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
You know, I agree with this as pertains to the Grandmaster and Thanos... thumb up

On average they both are High Trans, but as their best, they both creep into the Skyfather tier...

I think Seth would range from Low to Mid Skyfather; the Serpent should be in that range as well...
Seth is all over the place though. I mean he was barely able to handle Loki while Loki was in Seth's dimension (and Seth was at his most powerful). IMHO he's high herald at best. The Seth from the Odin/Seth throwdown was a freak showing.

And yeah I forgot about the Serpent. He's probably Mid Skyfather.

Oh and don't forget Ymir. He's more or less Surtur's equal. So he'd be high skyfather as well.

TheLordofMurder
@zopzop

Good point about Seth; he is all over the place...

What about Pluto in the heart of Hades? He was able to beat the Stranger there (well, the Stranger has been all over the place as well though)...

Digi
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Skyfather Low:
Skyfather Mid:
Skyfather High:


Its common knowledge who some of the High End Skyfathers are: Odin, Zeus, Surtur...

However, there is no clear consensus on who rounds out the Low and Mid portion of the Skyfather tier...

So lets have it...who belongs in the Low and Mid portion of the Skyfather tier?

You're using a flawed premise here. The current Trans. tier's upper limit is literally defined by Odin. It's the only tier that is defined on either end by actual characters (anything above Surfer and below Odin). Anyone in low or mid Skyfather should technically be in Trans. based on the forum definition of the term.

The apparent flaw in this definition - that other Skyfathers would technically be in Trans. by virtue of being less powerful than Odin - has been brought up before. But never changed.

Sorry, but there is no such thing as low or mid Skyfather, unless we redraw the lines entirely. All this is going to do is muddy terms.

TheLordofMurder
@Digi

What do you think about making Thanos or Grandmaster the top of Trans, then anyone above them is a Skyfather...

From there you can divide it into Low, Mid, High...

I honestly dont think this is hard to do and I fail to see how it complicates things; if anything it would make the boundaries clearer...

pym-ftw
That's what I already do

Digi
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@Digi

What do you know think about making Thanos or Grandmaster the top of Trans, then anyone above them is a Skyfather...

From there you can divide it into low, Mid, High...

I honestly dont think this is hard to do and I fail to see how it complicates things; if anything it would make the boundaries clearer...

Sorry, but I don't see how it makes things clearer at all.

First, making as controversial a figure as Thanos the yardstick for anything would introduce absurd amounts of chaos to the proceedings. Second, you'd have to come to an agreed-upon forum definition for what constitutes low, mid, and high Skyfather. Ok, so Odin and his equals are high, fine. The other two are entirely amorphic. And have you ever seen this forum try to come to a consensus? All of these terms are arbitrary ones that exist only to provide rough estimates of power to aid forum discussion. They aren't exact. For example, mid herald doesn't actually exist outside of KMC, and the endpoints on either end make almost no sense. I couldn't tell you at all what constitutes mid herald, and I curated the tiers thread for years. And if I tried to describe it ("not quite planet-busting," "cosmic"wink there would be exceptions (Terrax, for one) or it would incredibly vague to the point of meaninglessness.

There are also problems with making a character define a tier. There's a reason we only did it with Odin and Surfer, and then only because it was the only tier that we couldn't find acceptable end points for otherwise. What happens each time Thanos or Grandmaster or whoever has a new story arc? A low showing? Or experiences a gradual depowering over a period of years, like the Guardians of Oa. Suddenly the comics can move your tiers around arbitrarily. Better to create levels of power. it's why Iron man left meta recently (formerly the "Iron Man Tier"wink. If we defined it by Tony, each new armor would make the tiers increasingly incorrect.

Trans. is admittedly, and purposefully, a somewhat "catch-all" tier. It's the only one not broken into low/mid/high, and is a dumping ground for all manner of team-wreckers. But when you're starting to deal with high level matter manipulation, time manip., team busting, dimension hopping, reality creating, galaxy shaking world of Trans., it gets increasingly harder to define coherent lines.

So hopefully you see some of the challenges. Be happy the tiers exist. They aid forum communications, and should in theory provide a rough gauge of power levels for those new to comics or KMC. But I wouldn't try to alter them at this point. At best, you'd just create new arbitrary lines in the sand, which is all they are anyway. At worst, you'd complicate them further.

srug

TheLordofMurder
@Digi

I respect your opinion and I guess we agree to disagree as I see nothing wrong with making (for example):

Low Herald: Lowest is Nova (Frankie Raye), Greatest is Jack of Hearts (remember this is all an example)...

Mid Herald: Lowest is Adam Warlock, Greatest is Waverider...

High Herald: Lowest is Quasar, Greatest is either Surfer or Thor...

Low Trans: Lowest is The Collector, Greatest is Mangog...

Mid Trans: Lowest is Blackheart, Greatest is The Runner...

High Trans: Lowest is H/P Doomsday, Greatest is The Grandmaster...

Low Skyfather: Lowest is Thanos, Greatest is Seth (bare with me zopzop!)...

Mid Skyfather: Lowest is Nightmare, Greatest is The Serpent...

High Skyfather: Lowest is Vishnu (from Thor 300), Greatest is Odin...


From there you just fill in the blanks inbetween; yes, it wont be perfect...nothing ever is...but I simply fail to see how the above would complicate things.

It would definitely (hopefully) lead to some good debate! smile

h1a8
Originally posted by zopzop
There is no DP Tyrant despite what the forum thinks. And Tyrant is high skyfather, at the minimum.

Only if he amps off Galactus. Otherwise he is a trans at maximum.

Digi
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@Digi

I respect your opinion and I guess we agree to disagree as I see nothing wrong with making (for example):

Low Herald: Lowest is Nova (Frankie Raye), Greatest is Jack of Hearts (remember this is all an example)...

Mid Herald: Lowest is Adam Warlock, Greatest is Waverider...

High Herald: Lowest is Quasar, Greatest is either Surfer or Thor...

Low Trans: Lowest is The Collector, Greatest is Mangog...

Mid Trans: Lowest is Blackheart, Greatest is The Runner...

High Trans: Lowest is H/P Doomsday, Greatest is The Grandmaster...

Skyfather Low: Lowest is Thanos, Greatest is Seth (bare with me zopzop!)...

Skyfather Mid: Lowest is Nightmare, Greatest is The Serpent...

Skyfather High: Lowest is Vishnu (from Thor 300), Greatest is Odin...


From there you just fill in the blanks inbetween; yes, it wont be perfect...nothing ever is...but I simply fail to see how the above would complicate things.

It would definitely (hopefully) lead to some good debate! smile

Maybe complicate isn't the right word. It would be no better than what we have now, imo, and worse in at least one way.

But the complicated part is twofold. When those on the forums who have been using one set of criteria for years suddenly shift to another, there's your complication. Setting actual characters as the upper and lower limits instead of power levels...there's your complication, for reasons stated above. That's also why it would be worse...because defining things by characters is proven to be problematic long-term, and we rightly identified the problem with Tony before it was too bad.

And getting anyone to agree on anything, there's perhaps the biggest complication. Because if this were considered, it would be piggybacked with half a dozen other ideas for wholesale retcons of the tiers, and about 100 different opinions on where to draw the lines. Because I know those characters you picked are just examples. But I see at least half a dozen that would be voted down, either because some think them more/less powerful, or because they jump around in power levels too much (like Warlock, for one, who once upon a time was high herald, not a candidate to be the low end of mid, which kind of makes my point). But I couldn't name you better options, because they would be just as problematic.

I always used to tell people, if they didn't like the tiers, make their own and use that. No one's stopping you, and everyone knows the tiers aren't perfect.

And to be clear, this system would be fine. You've clearly put thought into it. We could refine it, and turn it into a working tier system. But it would be every bit as random as our current one. Your attempts to disambiguate would do very little, if anything, to fix that. The edges of tiers will always be fuzzy. It's a shared vocabulary. Very little else.

That's my take. As you said, agree to disagree. But I was in charge of the tiers thread for years, and it was MUCH more active and changing during that period, so I'd like to think I'm aware of some of the problems you'd encounter.

ares834
Originally posted by Digi
You're using a flawed premise here. The current Trans. tier's upper limit is literally defined by Odin. It's the only tier that is defined on either end by actual characters (anything above Surfer and below Odin). Anyone in low or mid Skyfather should technically be in Trans. based on the forum definition of the term.

Ah, so technically Superman and Thor are trans.



evil face

Tony Stark
And Dirty Bob is a High Skyfather

Endless Mike
Gorr is at least Elder God level

TheLordofMurder
Bump since the info is relavent as pertains a current topic...

Terryc250
imo, Thanos is the staple of High Trans, just as Odin is of High Skyfather, and Surfer is High Herald. I don't think Thanos is "low skyfather".

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by Terryc250
imo, Thanos is the staple of High Trans, just as Odin is of High Skyfather, and Surfer is High Herald. I don't think Thanos is "low skyfather".

Honestly I think you could interchange Thanos and Grandmaster as you could argue that either qualifies to be either the top of Trans or the bottom of Skyfather...

Thanos High Trans/Grandmaster Low Skyfather or vice-verse...

A strong argument could be made for either...

JuggernautMania
Skyfather is only a title. there are characters which dont have exotic powers however their overall power level is more than enough to defeat someone like zeus and even perhaps odin. guys like GA SBP or Superman 1Million fall under that category.

abhilegend
Originally posted by zopzop
At their absolute best, Grandmaster and Thanos can be listed under Low Skyfather. The "Wild One" is anywhere from low to mid skyfather, at least, seeing as how he absolutely humiliated Classic Strange/Prof Hulk/Namor/Silver Surfer/Shanzaar (sorcerer supreme of the Strange Matter universe).
Do you have scans of this "Wild one" beating Defenders? Sounds familiar.

zopzop
Originally posted by abhilegend
Do you have scans of this "Wild one" beating Defenders? Sounds familiar.
I HAD them. But trust me, he treated Prof Hulk/Surfer/Namor/Classic Strange like feebs.

They "beat" him by tricking him into a dimension that had INSANE gravity and that only worked because
a) they combined their power with the Sorcerer Supreme of that dimension to hold him
and
b) he was taken by surprise and not expecting it

He wasn't killed just trapped.

He (and Strange) claimed he was an Elder God.
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/wildonedemon.htm

Bonus, how powerful was the Sorcerer Supreme of the Strange Matter universe (that they banished the Wild One to?) :
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/shanzars.htm

IMHO, Wild One is at least Low Skyfather.

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