Solar Vs. Doctor Manhattan

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Dolos
Who is the most powerful transherald?

Branlor Swift
Solar... easily

Astner
I thought Solar was an Abstract-level character.

LeonBuco666
Sayyyy wuuutttt

Endless Mike
Which Solar

Dolos
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Which Solar The most current.

Doctor Manhattan will inevitably win. Unlike Solar, Doctor Manhattan has access to infinite potential outcomes of this battle, in an infinite assortment of outcomes, somewhere in there Doctor Manhattan wins so he can work backward from there.

Doctor Manhattan and Solar basically have identical abilities - with the exception that Before Watchmen gives Doctor Manhattan the ability of Probability Manipulation. Solar has never demonstrated that he is a Quantum Observer.

Doctor Manhattan is the greatest transherald, basically an Abstract, almost at the nigh-omnipotence level of Kubik or The Beyonder.

Mindset
lol

Branlor Swift
What good is the ability to destroy a multiverse against someone who can alter probability?

Solar vs Longshot would be a better fight

Dolos
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
What good is the ability to destroy a multiverse against someone who can alter probability?

Solar vs Longshot would be a better fight

DM has the probability where Solar doesn't get his superpowers.

That's actually not the most Au Current depiction of Solar, anyway.

I mean, pre-crisis Superman could survive in the >hypernova-thermal climate of the big bang, but I abstained from using him in the Superman Vs Sentry thread.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Dolos
The most current.

Doctor Manhattan will inevitably win. Unlike Solar, Doctor Manhattan has access to infinite potential outcomes of this battle, in an infinite assortment of outcomes, somewhere in there Doctor Manhattan wins so he can work backward from there.

Doctor Manhattan and Solar basically have identical abilities - with the exception that Before Watchmen gives Doctor Manhattan the ability of Probability Manipulation. Solar has never demonstrated that he is a Quantum Observer.

Doctor Manhattan is the greatest transherald, basically an Abstract, almost at the nigh-omnipotence level of Kubik or The Beyonder. thumb up

Branlor Swift
Originally posted by Dolos
DM has the probability where Solar doesn't get his superpowers.

That's actually not the most Au Current depiction of Solar, anyway.

I mean, pre-crisis Superman could survive in the >hypernova-thermal climate of the big bang, but I abstained from using him in the Superman Vs Sentry thread. Nope, that's not probable.

There is always a Solar, and he always gets power.

Solar alters Dr Manhattan's living probability

Mindset
Dolos Doctor Manhattan has the probability where he is omnipotent.

DDM 10/10.

I mean, that's not how his powers work, but still.

Dolos
Originally posted by Mindset
...that's not how his powers work... Not directly.

Id est, in one potential reality the Primal Monitor intercedes in this battle, favoring Doctor Manhattan.

Branlor Swift
Originally posted by Dolos
Not directly.

Id est, in one potential reality the Presence intercedes in this battle, favoring Doctor Manhattan. Holy shit

Dolos
Key differences here.

One problem with Doctor Manhattan, and this is perhaps Solar's saving grace, is paradox. For instance, he couldn't stop nuclear war without leaving the planet.

Mindset
Originally posted by Dolos
Not directly.

Id est, in one potential reality the Primal Monitor intercedes in this battle, favoring Doctor Manhattan. In an infinite set of realities DDM wins, stalemates, and loses an infinite amount of times.

So basically, Doom 10/10.

Dolos
Quit being facetious and passive aggressive, Mindset.

If I've misinterpreted the implications of probability manipulation, please explain why.

Present the evidence.

Probability Manipulation: "The user manipulates the probability of an event to happen, making unlikely things occur more often or instantly and preventing liable events from happening. They can cause and prevent both good and bad luck, sudden deaths, natural disasters, and even apocalyptic events."

Doctor Manhattan's method of Quantum Precognition doesn't always constitute total control as seen in Before Watchman, and so he's not listed as having this ability. However, his level of Quantum Manipulation should justify a stalemate here, for reasons Mindset intentionally but asserted. His assertion may be intentional but it is decidedly erroneous in his mind, as he believes it's only from a misinterpreted viewpoint of Doctor Manhattan's abilities.

Mindset
I don't know what you mean. I agree completely, man.

DDM wins every time, except when he doesn't.

Dolos
You see that extra D? As in Dolos'?

That's called being a passive aggressive baby.

Grow-up, Mindset.

Addendum: Passive aggressive behavior can be interpreted as flame.

Branlor Swift
Dolos, can I see your case presented with scans please?

Mindset
You probably think that because it's probable that people usually make fun of you, but you need to consider the possibility that I'm being genuine.

Or I may not be.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Dolos
Not directly.

Id est, in one potential reality the Primal Monitor intercedes in this battle, favoring Doctor Manhattan. no expression

qjBRNqwDPrU&autoplay=1

Dolos
Excessive jesting can be interpreted as spam, Mindset.

Dolos
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Dolos, can I see your case presented with scans please? That would be an unnecessary waste of time as I have already referenced you to the Before Watchman series, and the rules do not require standard citation for the invalidation of theses.

Mindset
Calling my sincere posts jests could be interpreted as flaming.

Backseat modding could be interpreted as trolling.

You're lucky I'm a nice guy, so I won't report you.

Branlor Swift
Originally posted by Dolos
That would be an unnecessary waste of time as I have already referenced you to the Before Watchman series, and the rules do not require standard citation for the invalidation of theses. I've read it.

I want to see the specific scans that you're citing exactly where Dr Manhattan is portrayed as a no limits fallacy probability alter-er. I want to see what exactly led you to your conclusion, and why he can accomplish this in a fight against Solar.

Because changing names on a paper does not make an abstract level character

Dolos
Perhaps I mistook your sincere posts as jests because I found them humorous, however true.

I am not backseat modding because no one presumed moderative action before me.

Apropos; it is you who's in err, so if you feel the need to report an issue, I won't sweat it.

Mindset
Apology accepted, tread lightly.

Dolos
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I've read it.

I want to see the specific scans that you're citing exactly where Dr Manhattan is portrayed as a no limits fallacy probability alter-er. I want to see what exactly led you to your conclusion, and why he can accomplish this in a fight against Solar.

Because changing names on a paper does not make an abstract level character

I reiterate, Doctor Manhattan's level of probability manipulation doesn't justify only victories. However, it does justify a no limits fallacy.

"I am legion."

-Doctor Manhattan.

Apropos; he can alter any event that involves him. Any event that he's present in that involves Solar, he can alter.

In one probability, Doctor Manhattan creates a time machine, and gains the ability to time travel. In that probability; he's present at the moment of Solar's creation and, therefore, he can nullify Solar's creation.

However, he could also go back and make it so the human race never started the Cold War and live out his life as a Jon Osterman. However, the reality in which the Cold War lead to global annihilation would still be there. This creates a multiplicity of realities. So this is what I mean when I conceded to Mindset's point that DM has infinite wins, losses, and stalemates.

NemeBro
The entire point of Doctor Manhattan is that while he has a non-linear perspective of time, he can do nothing to alter his future, and doesn't so much "act" as watch himself do things.

Dolos
Originally posted by NemeBro
The entire point of Doctor Manhattan is that while he has a non-linear perspective of time, he can do nothing to alter his future, and doesn't so much "act" as watch himself do things. No, his freewill is dubious with his lack of freewill. In this duplicity, there is equality, it neither lean toward non-freewill, nor toward freewill.

Dolos
edit

Branlor Swift
Originally posted by Dolos
I reiterate, Doctor Manhattan's level of probability manipulation doesn't justify only victories. However, it does justify a no limits fallacy.

"I am legion."

-Doctor Manhattan.

Apropos; he can alter any event that involves him. Any event that he's present in that involves Solar, he can alter.

In one probability, Doctor Manhattan creates a time machine, and gains the ability to time travel. In that probability; he's present at the moment of Solar's creation and, therefore, he can nullify Solar's creation.

However, he could also go back and make it so the human race never started the Cold War and live out his life as a Jon Osterman. However, the reality in which the Cold War lead to global annihilation would still be there. This creates a multiplicity of realities. So this is what I mean when I conceded to Mindset's point that DM has infinite wins, losses, and stalemates. no it doesn't. The guy couldn't even stop a nuclear war had it happened. Hence him trying so hard that it never started in the first place.
It only applies to him. He can't jump into other people's timelines.

And his altering made him pick a different name on a piece of paper... Which then led to the fracturing of multiple realities that pretty much all ended with the world blowing up. So yeah, his probability altering worked out really swell.

How in God's purple cock is that in any way a probability in a comic, let alone a vs thread?

I don't get why you're making so much shit up? If I were you I'd just twist that he could create pocket realities... at least that'd have some sort of merit, well it doesn't, but moreso than God intervening that's for sure

Dolos
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
no it doesn't. The guy couldn't even stop a nuclear war had it happened. Hence him trying so hard that it never started in the first place.
It only applies to him. He can't jump into other people's timelines.

And his altering made him pick a different name on a piece of paper... Which then led to the fracturing of multiple realities that pretty much all ended with the world blowing up. So yeah, his probability altering worked out really swell.

How in God's purple cock is that in any way a probability in a comic, let alone a vs thread?

I don't get why you're making so much shit up? If I were you I'd just twist that he could create pocket realities... at least that'd have some sort of merit

He did stop the nuclear war by not being Jon Osterman. His dilemma was that he couldn't be Jon Osterman. So actually he could get both potentialities simultaneously, hence making more realities. The problem was that his existence had a starting point, so in that reality it will always have a starting point. So he just assumed let it be, because all he'd be doing in living a human life and living a life as Doctor Manhattan after the advent of a time machine, is effectively adding complexity - without ever liberating himself from being doomed to the reality in which he's Doctor Manhattan.

I'm making things up, but I'm still using the nature of Doctor Manhattan's canon portrayal to come to my conclusions. Which is what any debtor engaged in this kind of versus debate always ends up doing.

NemeBro
Can I buy some crack from you?

Branlor Swift
Originally posted by Dolos
He did stop the nuclear war by not being Jon Osterman. His dilemma was that he couldn't be Jon Osterman. So actually he could get both potentialities simultaneously, hence making more realities. The problem was that his existence had a starting point, so in that reality it will always have a starting point. So he just assumed let it be, because all he'd be doing in living a human life and living a life as Doctor Manhattan after the advent of a time machine, is effectively adding complexity - without ever liberating himself from being doomed to the reality in which he's Doctor Manhattan. so he couldn't actually stop it is what you're saying.

Also, you're talking about alternate realities anyway. If for some reason Dr Manhattan ever whipped out a time machine in a fight with Solar and for some reason Dr Manhattan had access to that, that'd be happening to an alternate version of Solar.

Like how what happened in one reality didn't effect an already existing reality, it just sparked a new one in the comic you're making shit up from.

There's a reason I asked for scans for your arguments...

Branlor Swift
Originally posted by Dolos
I'm making things up, but I'm still using the nature of Doctor Manhattan's canon portrayal to come to my conclusions. Which is what any debtor engaged in this kind of versus debate always ends up doing. haha

All of that

Dolos
Originally posted by NemeBro
Can I buy some crack from you? Not crack, nicotine.

Yes, but I will be adding the shipping cost to the price of my electronic cigs.

Dolos
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
so he couldn't actually stop it is what you're saying.

Also, you're talking about alternate realities anyway. If for some reason Dr Manhattan ever whipped out a time machine in a fight with Solar and for some reason Dr Manhattan had access to that, that'd be happening to an alternate version of Solar.

So what makes one reality more real than the other?

curryman
In before Watchmen Doctor Manhattan traveled around basically erasing choice, to ensure that there was no tangent universe where he did not turn into Doctor Manhattan, or some shit like that.

Solar wins smile

Branlor Swift
Originally posted by Dolos
So what makes one reality more real than the another? the part where he's fighting a specific version of Solar for one. You might as well be arguing that anyone with the ability to time travel can just punch baby Superman in the face and beat him... But oddly enough that'd have more merit though that's not saying much

Maybe if he could actually turn people into baby's would he be actually fighting Solar as a baby. (I hope I didn't give you an idea)

Dolos
Originally posted by curryman
In before Watchmen Doctor Manhattan traveled around basically erasing choice, to ensure that there was no tangent universe where he did not turn into Doctor Manhattan, or some shit like that.

Solar wins smile

Yet he still made the choice not to let humanity destroy itself.

Yet he still made the choice to leave earth and create life elsewhere.

The only thing is that his quantum precognition made it so he already knew he was going to make all those choices.

Your assertion is irrelevant and doesn't debunk my thesis.

Branlor Swift
And that's my cue for bed

curryman
Originally posted by Dolos
Yet he still made the choice not to let humanity destroy itself.

Yet he still made the choice to leave earth and create life elsewhere.

The only thing is that his quantum precognition made it so he already knew he was going to make all those choices.

Your assertion is irrelevant and doesn't debunk my thesis.

Choice before he turned into Doctor Manhattan.

It wasn't an argument for or against your theory.

Dolos
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
the part where he's fighting a specific version of Solar for one. Things like "specific" and "version" are not definite concepts when there are multiple realities. There's nothing to invalidate one reality or another.

Originally posted by curryman
Choice before he turned into Doctor Manhattan.

It wasn't an argument for or against your theory. Neither before, nor after. Both before and after. Whichever viewpoint suites your fancy.

NemeBro
Dolos is one of my favorite posters.

curryman
Originally posted by Dolos
Neither before, nor after. Both before and after. Whichever viewpoint suites your fancy.
So more nonsense.

Great smile

Solar unmakes the Watchmen multiverse.

Dolos
Originally posted by curryman
So more nonsense.
I am truly sorry that you are unable to make sense of the many-worlds concept.

Yes, he unmakes the reality that Doctor Manhattan inhabits, thus he unmakes Doctor Manhattan. But Doctor Manhattan also unmakes Solar and makes an identical reality in the process. Both of these things happen.

curryman
Originally posted by Dolos
I am truly sorry that you are unable to make sense of the many-worlds concept.

Yes, he unmakes the reality that Doctor Manhattan inhabits, thus he unmakes Doctor Manhattan. But Doctor Manhattan also unmakes Solar and makes an identical reality in the process. Both of these things happen.

You're sorry I didn't automatically have JMS' high-school science overwrite the settings on KMC?

I'll pass.

Dolos
Originally posted by curryman
You're sorry I didn't automatically have JMS' high-school science overwrite the settings on KMC?

I'll pass. You have misinterpreted the settings.

This isn't battlefield removal. When Thor traps you in a realm, that's battlefield removal. This is literally the reality, the battlefield. Again, because there's no definitive way to qualify one reality from another. Plain and simple. It's not magic, in magic a realm is definitely not the original location, there's temporal and spatial reference to confirm.

I can't help it that some people are scientifically illiterate.

"Id"
Solar crushes cosmic smurp

maxivitopowe
What kinda weed are you smoking and where can i get some

Branlor Swift
Originally posted by Dolos
Things like "specific" and "version" are not definite concepts when there are multiple realities. There's nothing to invalidate one reality or another. Except when it's a completely different character. You might as well be saying that Dr M wins because he beats Wolverine in a different universe.

You're literally saying that Dr Manhattan wins here because you made up a scenario where an alternate Dr Manhattan whips out a time machine in an alternate reality and uses it against an alternate reality version of Solar, and then goes into another alternate reality and kills Solar as a baby. An alternate version of Solar is not the Solar in this thread. Dr M could kill thirty baby versions of Solar, and it'd have zero effect on him. Down the line in say a Cyclops vs Dr M thread, you could say Dr M kills Living Tribunal as a baby and that'd have about as much to do with Solar as what you're saying now does.

Let me make this in a way you understand:

Is Kingdom Come Superman, the main Superman we all know and don't love today? No, of course he isn't. If you kill Kingdom Come Superman as a baby it will have zero effect on the main Superman. Hence alternate realities. If not, the many Supermen killed along the multiverse would have ended Superman's life already

Nevermind the fact that we should just pretend this fight for whatever reason is happening along multiple timelines and Dr Manhattan has a time machine for whatever reason... you're shouting random stuff that has no bearing on anything at all.
I might as well be claiming that Tubthumper starts playing and Johnny Depp comes out of nowhere and dropkicks Jon Osterman as a child which then severs his spine and that's why he loses to Solar

Dolos
When he went back and observed Jon and Janey at the Carnival; and altered their realities. Were they all transported to that reality? Or did reality seem to just bend to his will.

Think pre-retconned Beyonder. You can't just wave all his feats off as BFR.

You don't like the nature of his reality warping because it's not poof, magic!

It's based on a scientific experiment in which physicists shot a laser beam through two slits expecting to see two slit-shaped lights behind it. Instead they saw hundreds of lights. The particles that made up the laser were in several places simultaneously. They tried observing the particles individually and then fired one beam through two open lines in the wall, and this time,after passing through, there were only two lines of light. Somehow, by virtue of watching each and every subatomic particle, they controlled the particles to have one definite location in temporal space.

It's called the measurement problem.

Doctor Manhattan applies this to everything that exists. He manipulates reality because there are infinite realities (Many Worlds Theorem), he just needs to pick one and its in front of him all the sudden. It's not BFR.

curryman
Originally posted by Dolos
You have misinterpreted the settings.

This isn't battlefield removal. When Thor traps you in a realm, that's battlefield removal. This is literally the reality, the battlefield. Again, because there's no definitive way to qualify one reality from another. Plain and simple. It's not magic, in magic a realm is definitely not the original location, there's temporal and spatial reference to confirm.

I can't help it that some people are scientifically illiterate.
You're confused.

Look up how different realities/versions are dealt with on the forum.

Doc loses.

Dolos
Originally posted by curryman
You're confused.

Look up how different realities/versions are dealt with on the forum.

Doc loses. Forget BFR. Let's say it is BFR. I can change it I'm the OP.

With what we see in Before Watchmen, it's not the same thing. Reality just changes. Doctor Manhattan can just erase Solar like the Beyonder would.

Doctor Manhattan is aware of all realities, all of the possible things he can do, Solar is limited. Doctor Manhattan doesn't need to 'recharge' either.

Branlor Swift
Originally posted by Dolos
When he went back and observed Jon and Janey at the Carnival; and altered their realities. Were they all transported to that reality? Or did reality seem to just bend to his will.

Think pre-retconned Beyonder. You can't just wave all his feats off as BFR.

You don't like the nature of his reality warping because it's not poof, magic!

It's based on a scientific experiment in which physicists shot a laser beam through two slits expecting to see two slit-shaped lights behind it. Instead they saw hundreds of lights. The particles that made up the laser were in several places simultaneously. They tried observing the particles individually and then fired one beam through two open lines in the wall, and this time,after passing through, there were only two lines of light. Somehow, by virtue of watching each and every subatomic particle, they controlled the particles to have one definite location in temporal space.

It's called the measurement problem.

Doctor Manhattan applies this to everything that exists. He manipulates reality because there are infinite realities (Many Worlds Theorem), he just needs to pick one and its in front of him all the sudden. It's not BFR. He guided one reality to make the same decisions as the original because every other one ended really really badly.

And as seen before if Dr Manhattan changes history it will splinter off into other realities, and have no effect on other realities. He had to erase choice and let free will reign for him to have one true reality.
You are literally arguing against how his powers worked in the comic.

Dr Manhattan creating choices was the sole reason other universes existed. If he killed Solar as a baby, it would just splinter off other universes, and again, have no effect on the main.
If what you're saying is to even be considered a possibility.

lol PR Beyonder. OK. It's random time again.

Anyway, that alternate reality where he uses a God damned time machine on Solar can't exist anyway, because it's never happened. The forum isn't continuing canon. What happens in one thread does not make a lore.

Dolos
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
He guided one reality to make the same decisions as the original because every other one ended really really badly.

And as seen before if Dr Manhattan changes history it will splinter off into other realities, and have no effect on other realities. He had to erase choice and let free will reign for him to have one true reality.
You are literally arguing against the how his powers worked in the comic.

Dr Manhattan creating choices was the sole reason other universes existed. If he killed Solar as a baby, it would just splinter off other universes, and again, have no effect on the main.
If what you're saying is to even be considered a possibility.

lol PR Beyonder. OK. It's random time again.

Anyway, that alternate reality where he uses a God damned time machine on Solar can't exist anyway, because it's never happened. The forum isn't continuing canon. What happens in one thread does not make a lore. Do you understand the concept of infinity? Somewhere in infinity there's a time machine. If infinite squids were typing on a keyboard for infinity, one of them would, by chance, type The Lord of The Rings.

Lol, yes, lots of splintered realities, beyond his control.

*Waiting for the diatribe on how you don't like that outcome and prefer a straight answer when Doctor Manhattan's powers are literally too complex for one. He's dealing with an existential threat to the cosmos, you really think he cares if he splinters existence and screws with chronological events on a cosmic scale?

Branlor Swift
Originally posted by Dolos
Do you understand the concept of infinity? Somewhere in infinity there's a time machine. If infinite squids were typing on a keyboard for infinity, one of them would, by chance, type The Lord of The Rings.

Lol, yes, lots of splintered realities, beyond his control.

*Waiting for the diatribe on how you don't like that outcome and prefer a straight answer when Doctor Manhattan's powers are literally too complex for one. He's dealing with an existential threat to the cosmos, you really think he cares if he splinters existence and screws with chronological events on a cosmic scale? ugh
That's not even how Dr Manhattan's powers work.

Dr Manhattan can't effect an already existing universe by changing an event. Like, it's right on panel, and the entire basis of the story in the first place
That's the whole reason so many universes existed in the first place, because he was mucking with it. He had to erase choice for there to be any order.

And there is no chronological series of events on a VS thread. This is not a story. Solar and Dr Manhattan have no existing history together, and certainly not one of your scenarios. Do me a favor and point me to a different universe that ended in something other than the world getting blown up before you start making up stuff about anything can happen in another reality. Show me something out of the ordinary that happened in an alternate Dr M reality.

No limits fallacy based on nothing on panel.

TheGodKiller
^Keep this up for a few more pages, and you'll chase him off this forum for the next 6 months.

I guess we don't need the comic book forums sporadically polluted with the rubbish that Dolos spews on the GD forum.

Branlor Swift
I feel like banging my face through a knife drawer everytime I read a post... it's almost too much.

I can imagine

TheGodKiller
^Most of the stuff he spouts sounds like something he picked up from fanfics, rather than actual on-panel feats.

NemeBro
On another note, Before Watchmen sounds terrible.

Galan007
As a whole, it was.

There were a few decent issues here and there, though.

curryman
The Owlman one was decent.

Rorschach's was weird...

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
^Keep this up for a few more pages, and you'll chase him off this forum for the next 6 months.

I guess we don't need the comic book forums sporadically polluted with the rubbish that Dolos spews on the GD forum.

What is the GD forum? It sounds terrible.

HueyFreeman
Originally posted by curryman
The Owlman one was decent.

Rorschach's was weird...



What is the GD forum? It sounds terrible. I really only enjoymed ozymandias .

Galan007
Same.

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