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...how would various lightsaber combatants score in terms of overall dueling capability (not just technical skill)?

Some of my list is well thought out. Some of it is totally arbitrary.

Luke Skywalker - 170
Yoda - 160
Sidious (RotS) - 155
Caedus - 145
Mace Windu - 125
Dooku - 120
Revan - 120
Darth Bane - 110
Exar Kun - 100
Darth Malgus - 100
Tulak Hord - 100
Anakin - 100
Obi Wan - 80
Kas'im - 80
Darth Maul (TPM) - 70
Kit Fisto - 70
Cin Drallig - 60
Agen Kolar - 60
Qui Gon (TPM) - 60
Darth Vader - 60
General Grievous - 55
Darth Nyriss - 50
Obi Wan (AotC) - 40
Average Jedi Master: 20
Vitiate: 5

I don't get it. How's Dooku above Skywalker in dueling as of ROTS?

Also in pure Fencing I personally wouldn't put such a large gap Between ROTS Anakin and ROTS Sidious/Yoda.

But it's funny where you've put Vitiate

how exactly is revan a 120? just curious, cuz he doesnt have alot of canonically impressive feats (the most impressive one i can think of is him killing an imp guard on a nexus)

Those imp guards are beastly bro. estahuh

Though yeah, Revans not that great, lol.

Revan put down that Imperial Guard in very impressive manner (in like a few steps). Another one of his impressive showings is that he slew two large Terentateks singlehandedly in the Tomb of Naga Sadow. Also, he have lot of kills under his belt and much of that is due to his skills with a lightsaber.

still don't see how that puts him on equal footing with dooku

Originally posted by Master Han
Luke Skywalker - 165
Yoda - 160
Sidious (RotS) - 155
Caedus - 145
Mace Windu - 125
Dooku - 120
Darth Bane - 120
Exar Kun - 100
Darth Malgus - 100
Tulak Hord - 100
Anakin - 100
Revan - 100
Kas'im - 95
Obi Wan - 90
Raskta Lsu - 85
Darth Maul (TPM) - 80
Agen Kolar - 75
Kit Fisto - 75
Qui Gon (TPM) - 75
Cin Drallig - 70
Darth Vader - 70
Luke Skywalker (RotJ) - 70
General Grievous - 70
Obi Wan (AotC) - 60
Darth Nyriss - 40
Luke Skywalker (ESB) - 40
Obi Wan (TPM) - 30
Lord Scourge: 30
Average Jedi Master (PT): 20
Johun Othone: 10
Vitiate: 1

^updated

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't get it. How's Dooku above Skywalker in dueling as of ROTS?


Before Anakin goes "in teh zone", Dooku is still above him, hence why he can kick him away while simultaneously dispatching Kenobi.



Matthew Stover describes the Windu vs. Palpatine fight as their moving too fast for Anakin to follow, and although that description may not be entirely canon, due to exaggerated speed descriptions and the film's interpretation of Anakin's time of arrival, it's clear that there's still a significantly gap between Anakin and the Big Two at this point. Hence why Yoda sent Obi Wan to kill Vader but did not feel he could take on Palpatine.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
how exactly is revan a 120? just curious, cuz he doesnt have alot of canonically impressive feats (the most impressive one i can think of is him killing an imp guard on a nexus)

Yeah, I just put him there...he's described as an impressive lightsaber duelist, and I just assumed that his skills would be proportional to his Force abilities, which apparently surpass those of Nihilus. But I moved him down to RotS Anakin's level.

I don't get any of it...the whole thing is wrong...

anakin > bane in dueling i believe

Originally posted by Master Han
Before Anakin goes "in teh zone", Dooku is still above him, hence why he can kick him away while simultaneously dispatching Kenobi.

That argument would work 5 years ago. But not now since Skywalker has fought Dooku 3 times in TCW and has consistently stalemated him.

Yes Dooku is still fully capable of getting his Lethal licks in, but so is Skywalker.

So going by average showings it can really go either way even without Skywalker being all Zoned Out.


Originally posted by Master Han
Matthew Stover describes the Windu vs. Palpatine fight as their moving too fast for Anakin to follow, and although that description may not be entirely canon, due to exaggerated speed descriptions and the film's interpretation of Anakin's time of arrival, it's clear that there's still a significantly gap between Anakin and the Big Two at this point.

Yeah I have a few issues with things like that. Like what Force users "see" shouldn't be that relevant. I doubt they literally see the Blaster bolts they deflect as they are coming at them("Your eyes can deceive you. Don't trust them). And of course Blaster bolts move faster than Sidious. Also Dooku sees Kenobi vanish when he leaps because he's so fast in the ROTS Novel as well.

Still I'm sure Yoda/Sidious are faster(and better) than "Normal" ROTS Skywalker. But if he does Zone out, then I doubt there would be much of a gap at all (in Sabers at least).



Originally posted by Master Han
Hence why Yoda sent Obi Wan to kill Vader but did not feel he could take on Palpatine.



Well that's not really a fair argument, considering if that was Dooku instead of Palpatine, then Yoda would have said the same thing.

Besides Palpatine could most likely just TK Kenobi and Skywalker together (just like he did to Maul and Opress). But since this discussion here is Sabers only that's all irrelevant.

In Sabers by ROTS(even a year or so before ROTS), there's really no case left for Dooku to be superior to Skywalker Imho.

actually, in one or two of those episodes, he woulda beaten dooku in a saber contest, had dooku not started using lightning and what not.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
actually, in one or two of those episodes, he woulda beaten dooku in a saber contest, had dooku not started using lightning and what not.

Yep, he's actually been consistently stalemating Dooku in the All Out, not just Sabers.

Dooku's superior Force Powers give him the edge at most.

Recently revealed encounters between Anakin and Dooku sort of contradict Anakin's whole "our powers have doubled since the last time we met" speech, and Dooku's obvious confidence. Perhaps he was holding back in TCW?

More likely Anakin's a shithead who overestimates himself.

Except Anakin was right...

The show f*cked a lot up, whadayawant?

Originally posted by Master Han
Recently revealed encounters between Anakin and Dooku sort of contradict Anakin's whole "our powers have doubled since the last time we met" speech,

Well apart from Skywalker being arrogant, you've answered this part yourself here:


Originally posted by Master Han
Except Anakin was right...





Originally posted by Master Han
and Dooku's obvious confidence. Perhaps he was holding back in TCW?

As for this, it doesn't seem like he was holding back. Dooku clearly goes for a killing blow in TCW movie when Skywalker is floored and disarmed. And even that early on in TCW he was already close to being on par with Dooku in Sabers.


My guess is by ROTS Dooku was still confident he could deal with Skywalker with his Force Powers. Since their last encounter ended with Dooku Force Blasting Skywalker away (although he wasn't necessarily defeated).

That's why I say even if Skywalker is not "In The Zone" by late CW/ROTS he's pretty much on par with Dooku in an all out, although Dooku's Force Powers might still give him the edge.

But in Pure Sabers there's honestly no case anymore for Dooku to be above Skywalker(Zoned or not).

Originally posted by Master Han
Except Anakin was right...

Er, **** no he isn't. His powers did not 'double', which is the part thats obviously exaggeration. He meets up with Dooku only a short time before RotS, in Labyrinth of Evil, making it retarded that he'd make that claim but whatever.

Its just a case of the EU and CW writers not being able to resist putting Anakin and Dooku against each other like the hacks that they are, making that line retroactively retarded and nonsensical.

yeah, skywalker is definitely one of the top five duelists of the PT era, quite on par with dooku, mace, but of course, not yoda or sidious

Windu is not a better saber duelists then Anakin.

And Vader is a way better duelist then Qui Gon Jinn.

oh krap just noticed that. how can you POSSIBLY put qui gonn ahead of vader? and yes, windu is equal to anakin on normal terms

Updated.

Luke Skywalker - 155
Zoneakin - 150
Yoda - 145
Sidious (RotS) - 145
Caedus - 135
Darth Bane - 120
Mace Windu - 115
Dooku - 115
Anakin - 100
Bane (PoD) - 95
Kyle Katarn - 95
Exar Kun - 90
Tulak Hord - 90
Kas'im - 85
Revan - 85
Obi Wan - 85
Raskta Lsu - 85
Darth Maul (TPM) - 75
Darth Vader - 75
Luke Skywalker (RotJ) - 75
Agen Kolar - 70
Kit Fisto - 70
Qui Gon (TPM) - 70
Cin Drallig - 70
General Grievous - 65
Luke Skywalker (ESB) - 65
Obi Wan (AotC) - 50
Darth Nyriss - 40
Obi Wan (TPM) - 30
Lord Scourge: 30
Average Jedi Master (PT): 20
Johun Othone: 10
Vitiate: 1

Anakin's djem so is "super effective" against Dooku's makashi; the latter still does better against analogous opponents, such as Ventress.

Originally posted by Master Han
Updated.

Luke Skywalker - 155
Zoneakin - 150
Yoda - 145
Sidious (RotS) - 145
Caedus - 135
Darth Bane - 120
Mace Windu - 115
Dooku - 115
Anakin - 100
Bane (PoD) - 95
Kyle Katarn - 95
Exar Kun - 90
Tulak Hord - 90
Kas'im - 85
Revan - 85
Obi Wan - 85
Raskta Lsu - 85
Darth Maul (TPM) - 75
Darth Vader - 75
Luke Skywalker (RotJ) - 75
Agen Kolar - 70
Kit Fisto - 70
Qui Gon (TPM) - 70
Cin Drallig - 70
General Grievous - 65
Luke Skywalker (ESB) - 65
Obi Wan (AotC) - 50
Darth Nyriss - 40
Obi Wan (TPM) - 30
Lord Scourge: 30
Average Jedi Master (PT): 20
Johun Othone: 10
Vitiate: 1


Anakin's djem so is "super effective" against Dooku's makashi; the latter still does better against analogous opponents, such as Ventress.

Darth Bane: 120
What has Bane done that puts him above Windu, Dooku, and even ROTS Kenobi? Kenobi defeated a stronger, faster and overall better Djem So duelist in the form of pre suit Darth Vader. Windu arguably defeated Sidious, and moved just as fast as he was. Dooku moves so fast he creates after images, and has defeated Windu before. Bane's major saber feat is killing Kasim, who would be beaten by Maul and upward.

Kasim and Raskta Lsu: 85
I also think Kasim is too high on this list. I think 75 is a fine place for him. So is Raksta Lsu. Yes, she's really good, but I'd say she wouldn't touch pre-suit Vader. Meaning she isn't as good as say, ROTS Kenobi.

Where is TCW Maul?

Caedus: 135
What has Caedus done that puts him above ROTS Anakin., Windu, Dooku, etc? Caedus feats are mainly Force related stuff such as flow walking. Oh he fought Grand Master Luke? Sidious, Yoda, Kenobi, ROTS Anakin, Windu and arguably Maul would do fine against Caedus. And for those who think Maul is out of Caedus' league? Maul was able to match Sidious in speed on their duel in Mandalore. Sidious is quite possibly the second fastest duelist after Luke himself. Sidious blitzed 3 excellent duelists in the Order in under a second. The fact that Maul didn't get blitzed is amazing. The fact that Maul lasted longer than 4 seconds is even better. Maul has also been noted to move 5 times faster than a regular human. Maul isn't a match for Caedus in FORCE abilities, in sabers, Maul will do fine.

Oh, he had torn tendons, a missing arm and some other injury and was still equal to Jaina, who was being boosted? I never thought of Jaina as someone powerful. yes, she's the granddaughter of Anakin, but in their first fight she lost bad. In the second, she fought like an animal. And the sad thing is, she nearly lost to a CRIPPLE.

Caedus is good, but ROTS Anakin is better. I'd say 85-90 is a decent spot for him.

Revan: 85
What has Revan done that nets him the same skill as Kenobi? Beating Malak, who is not that powerful anyway? Malak had to be amped up by 20 Jedi Masters, and still lost? Malak never struck me as WTFstrong. He struck me as average. Revan is also featless in saber combat as well. His feats are basically in tutaminis.

Originally posted by XRKun
Darth Bane: 120
What has Bane done that puts him above Windu, Dooku, and even ROTS Kenobi? Kenobi defeated a stronger, faster and overall better Djem So duelist in the form of pre suit Darth Vader. Windu arguably defeated Sidious, and moved just as fast as he was. Dooku moves so fast he creates after images, and has defeated Windu before.

Remember that he defeated Kas'im with, what...a year of training under his belt? The same Kas'im who had mastered every technique of every form, and whom Bane suggested to be the greatest swordsman ever. And RoT takes place a decade afterwards? He was called the sith'ari for a reason. That's a title suggesting truly outstanding levels of power.



I wouldn't put it at that, given that Bane speculated that Kas'im, who had mastered every movement and every form, was "maybe the greatest swordsman ever". Ever. Ever. He also demonstrates amazing reflexes, leaping up from sleep and opening the door in the time it took Bane to knock.



Raksta Lsu was described as the greatest duelist of the Order, and had dedicated her life almost exclusively to the lightsaber. Unless if we presume that Bane's era was really weak in the grand scheme of things, the top dog is bound to be relatively high. She was able to take on Bane, albeit while amped by BM.



Haven't really watched the series.



Certainly not Maul. Kenobi might hold out due to Soresu, but he wouldn't put Luke in a bacta tank for a week like Caedus did.

1. He took on Luke and gave him hell.
2. He's described as the second greatest duelist in his era.
3. He has a ridiculous pain tolerance and good hand to hand combat skills.
4. His strength in the Force, tied to his dueling prowess, surpasses Vader's.



Sidious was toying with the duo.



5 times faster than a regular human isn't very impressive, and Caedus did significantly better against Luke, without any zone boost, than Maul did against Sidious.



"cripple" Caedus is hardly handicapped at all - he was willing to take on any duelist in the galaxy, sans his uncle Luke, with only one good arm.

Compare this to AotC Obi Wan, for example, who was incapacitated by slashes to his arm and leg, or Dooku, ESB Luke, and Windu, who are all pretty much immobilized by hand chops.



No, he's above RotS Anakin. He's more powerful in the Force, has better damage soak, and has better demonstrations of his ability.



I'm extrapolating (vaguely) from:

1. His considerable Force ability (which, again, ties into his saber prowess)
2. His apparent mastering of multiple high level forms
3. There being no implication (to my knowledge) that he primarily relied on his Force abilities, so we can guesstimate a proportional relationship.

Originally posted by Master Han
Raksta Lsu was described as the greatest duelist of the Order, and had dedicated her life almost exclusively to the lightsaber. Unless if we presume that Bane's era was really weak in the grand scheme of things, the top dog is bound to be relatively high. She was able to take on Bane, albeit while amped by BM.

Raskta was phenomonally skilled imo.


"Now tasked with training apprentices in the forms of lightsaber combat, Raskta had been part of the campaign on Ruusan. Wielding a blue-bladed lightsaber in each hand, and shunning any form of armor, she was a terrifying figure to behold on the battlefield. Johun vividly remembered her carving great swaths of destruction through the heart of the enemy ranks, leaving a litter of bodies in her wake. It was said that, by the end of the war, as many Sith Lords had fallen under her twin blades as had been killed by the thought bomb."

"Raska's blue blades flickered too quickly for the eye to see, neutralizing her enemy's initial, wild attack then landing half a dozen lethal blows to his chest and abdomen. But instead of toppling, the big man kept coming, never even breaking stride. He would have plowed straight into Raskta, trampling her under his heavy boots, had she not cartwheeled to the side at the last possible instant."

"She seemed to be everywhere at once-in front of Bane, beside him, behind him, circling low, leaping to come in high, deflecting his blade with one of her own then stabbing three quick times in succession at his eyes. The big man's head ducked and bobbed, twisting and turning to avoid her blows as he tried to mount a counteroffensive.

Raskta's mastery of her blades was unparalleled, but even with her talents augmented by Worror's battle meditation she wasn't able to land a telling blow on such a small target through Bane's defenses. Still, the ferocity of her new strategy had turned the momentum in her favor ... or so Farfalla thought."

"The young Jedi marveled at the speed and savagery of Raskta's blades. And while Johun's own clumsy efforts had actually seemed to impede Sarro when they fought side by side, Raskta appeared to thrive off his presence. When he went high, she went low. If he came from the left, she came from the right. It was partly a function of her choice of weapon: individually each of her lightsabers was more precise and accurate than Sarro's giant double blades. But it was more than that. Her reactions were so fast, her combat instincts so pure, that she was able to sense and anticipate what he was going to do even as it happened, then use his attacks to her own advantage."

Originally posted by Master Han
I'm extrapolating (vaguely) from:

1. His considerable Force ability (which, again, ties into his saber prowess)
2. His apparent mastering of multiple high level forms
3. There being no implication (to my knowledge) that he primarily relied on his Force abilities, so we can guesstimate a proportional relationship.

In SWTORE Revans identified as a Jedi Knight instead of a Consular.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In SWTORE Revans identified as a Jedi Knight instead of a Consular.

Was that in reference to his "class" though? It could simply be referring to him as his rank in the Jedi Order.

Its on the page describing the Jedi Knight class and he's listed alongside Ven Zallow and Kao Cen Darach as a notable Jedi Knight. :shrug:

Notable Consulars are Odan Urr, Jolee Bindo and Celeste Morne.

Hmm, yeah seems he is a "Jedi Knight" then.

Originally posted by Master Han
Remember that he defeated Kas'im with, what...a year of training under his belt? The same Kas'im who had mastered every technique of every form, and whom Bane suggested to be the greatest swordsman ever. And RoT takes place a decade afterwards? He was called the sith'ari for a reason. That's a title suggesting truly outstanding levels of power.

Bane isn't exactly what I would call a smart man. And several jedi have mastered every form. Even Piell, Yoda, Windu, Sora Bulq, even Dooku was said to have a general understanding of forms 1-6. And Kasim is far from the greatest swordsman ever. Yoda would beat him. Dooku would beat him. Anakin would beat him. And Bane isn't as good as Anakin. They are close yes. But Anakin is faster and stronger (the Chosen One).

I wouldn't put it at that, given that Bane speculated that Kas'im, who had mastered every movement and every form, was "maybe the greatest swordsman ever". Ever. Ever. He also demonstrates amazing reflexes, leaping up from sleep and opening the door in the time it took Bane to knock.




Raksta Lsu was described as the greatest duelist of the Order, and had dedicated her life almost exclusively to the lightsaber. Unless if we presume that Bane's era was really weak in the grand scheme of things, the top dog is bound to be relatively high. She was able to take on Bane, albeit while amped by BM.

Raskta was amped by BM. You said it yourself. She is definetly good, but not amazing.

Haven't really watched the series.



Certainly not Maul. Kenobi might hold out due to Soresu, but he wouldn't put Luke in a bacta tank for a week like Caedus did.

1. He took on Luke and gave him hell.
2. He's described as the second greatest duelist in his era.
3. He has a ridiculous pain tolerance and good hand to hand combat skills.
4. His strength in the Force, tied to his dueling prowess, surpasses Vader's.

Kenobi took on pre-suit Vader and gave him WORSE hell.

Kenobi has excellent hand to hand combat as well. Maul outright MASTERED Teras Kasi. Maul and Kenobi (more so Maul) also have great pain tolerance. Maul is described as an unstoppable dervish of destruction and noted by Plagieus to have phenomenal skill in Jar'Kai. Mace Windu noted Kenobi as the greatest master of Soresu.

In SABER COMBAT, raw force potential shouldn't matter. The only force abilities that really should matter is Shatterpoint, Force Speed, and Force Strength.

Sidious was toying with the duo.

No he wasn't. He was toying with Opress. Point out to me where Sidious was toying with Maul after Opress died.


5 times faster than a regular human isn't very impressive, and Caedus did significantly better against Luke, without any zone boost, than Maul did against Sidious.

I'm pretty sure Caedus wants to kill Luke. He's going to use rage (zone), whether you like it or not.



"cripple" Caedus is hardly handicapped at all - he was willing to take on any duelist in the galaxy, sans his uncle Luke, with only one good arm.

Compare this to AotC Obi Wan, for example, who was incapacitated by slashes to his arm and leg, or Dooku, ESB Luke, and Windu, who are all pretty much immobilized by hand chops.

IDK bout Dooku. HE HAS NO FREAKING HANDS. He can't do anything really. No lightning, etc, nothing.

Windu lost his hand and he is litterally in front of the THE MOST POWERFUL SITH LORD IN HISTORY. I think he was more scared than in pain.


No, he's above RotS Anakin. He's more powerful in the Force, has better damage soak, and has better demonstrations of his ability.

More powerful in the Force? LOL. A grandson isn't more powerful in the Force than the Chosen One, unless you mean Anakin as Suit-Vader.

Caedus's greatest feats are flow walking and nearly defeating a boosted Jaina.

Anakin has forced Son and Daughter to bow down to him, something only Abeloth and Father can do. That is even out of Luke's capability.

I'm extrapolating (vaguely) from:

1. His considerable Force ability (which, again, ties into his saber prowess)
IDK, Force Speed and Force Strength weren't Revan's great Force feats, tutaminis was.

2. His apparent mastering of multiple high level forms
At the time, Ataru, Djem So, Shien, and Niman weren't even created yet. And where does it state this?

3. There being no implication (to my knowledge) that he primarily relied on his Force abilities, so we can guesstimate a proportional relationship.

Uh, posting error...

Originally posted by Master Han
Uh, posting error...

Huh? What happened?

You ****ed up your post bro.

...what?



Only a small handful of Jedi have mastered every form, and only Kas'im has been stated to know every sequence and movement.



That's just PoD Bane, though.

Although, now that I think of it, we should remember that Bane praised Kas'im in the context of why he was winning against Bane; obviously, he didn't mean "greatest ever" in linear prowess, because Bane was obviously his superior in that regards. So it may have referred to technical skill and versatility.

Nonetheless, it's an impressive feat in light of Bane's minimal training.



It may be somewhat futile to rank her, as we know almost nothing about her. But her enormous dedication and talent with the blade, and her massive killcount, would put her at least around Kit Fisto's level. I decided to elevate her based on her status as the top duelist of the Order. It's difficult to pinpoint exact locations.



Aside from Emokin's fatal mistake...no, he didn't. He gave ground and managed to survive. He even got a few good hits in. But he was clearly losing throughout the engagement.

BTW, Luke > Vader (by a lot).



Of these, only Maul rivals Caedus in pain tolerance. Kenobi and Mace have both been incapacitated by (from Caedus's PoV) minor wounds.



Impressive accolades, but hardly on Caedus's level, who:

1. Took on Luke Skywalker
2. Is the second best duelist of the Order. In his mind, he's the second best even with one working arm.



Force mastery correlates to all those amps, though. Hence why Bane was beating Kas'im.

Caedus is stronger in the Force than Anakin. He has greater pain tolerance. He's the smarter fighter. He has better feats. He would win.




Fair enough point, but Maul was fighting with a circumstantial rage boost beyond what he could consistently pull in a confrontation.



LOL, wut? By that logic, Maul should have fought like he did at the end from the start, since he certainly wasn't holding back against his master. It doesn't work that way.



He has legs, elbows, TK, etc. Caedus is clearly a more well rounded, versatile combatant than even Anakin/Dooku.



Scared? Lucky for you this isn't true, because it really doesn't help your case. Caedus believed he was fighting Luke on the Anakin Solo, and still continued to do battle with one good arm.



Not potential. In actual mastery of the Force, Vader >>> Anakin. And Caedus canonically > Vader.



Those are just some of his many feats, which demonstrate that he's only modestly below Luke as a saber combatant, and therefore beyond Anakin.



This is Zoneakin.

Updated slightly.

Luke Skywalker - 155
Zoneakin - 150
Yoda - 145
Sidious (RotS) - 145
Caedus - 135
Darth Bane - 120
Mace Windu - 115
Dooku - 115
Anakin - 100
Bane (PoD) - 95
Kyle Katarn - 95
Exar Kun - 90
Tulak Hord - 90
Kas'im - 85
Revan - 85
Obi Wan - 85
Raskta Lsu - 75
Darth Maul (TPM) - 75
Darth Vader - 75
Luke Skywalker (RotJ) - 75
Agen Kolar - 70
Kit Fisto - 70
Qui Gon (TPM) - 70
Cin Drallig - 70
General Grievous - 65
Luke Skywalker (ESB) - 65
Obi Wan (AotC) - 50
Darth Nyriss - 40
Obi Wan (TPM) - 30
Lord Scourge: 30
Average Jedi Master (PT): 20
Johun Othone: 10
Vitiate: 1

The Nyriss and Scourge placements seem like pointed jabs at me. >:C

Nyriss has done nothing to put her above AotC Obi Wan, and Scourge is even weaker still.

Remember that she was on a DS nexus, which would benefit her and Scourge, but nerf the Exile.

I changed the grounds of this with Luke being 110

Luke: 110
Yoda: 100
Sids: 95
Mace: 90
Dooku: 90
Caedus: 90
Anakin: 90
Suit Vader: 85
Malgus: 85
HoT: 85
Kenobi: 85
Bane: 85
Revan: 80
Maul: 80
Satele: 80
Savage: 75
Grievous: 70
Kit Fisto: 70
Kolar: 65

^nice list. But the gap between Palpatine and Fisto/Kolar is a little low. And Fisto seemed to hand Grievous his ass.

Grievous was trained by Dooku throughout TCW. So ROTS Grievous should be a considerably better combatant by that time than when he faced Fisto early CW.

So should Fisto.

Not to the same extent. Fisto just improved by the presumed standard amount of all the CW Jedi fighting in a war. Nothing concrete about that though in Fisto's case.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I changed the grounds of this with Luke being 110

Luke: 110
Yoda: 100
Sids: 95
Mace: 90
Dooku: 90
Caedus: 90
Anakin: 90
Suit Vader: 85
Malgus: 85
HoT: 85
Kenobi: 85
Bane: 85
Revan: 80
Maul: 80
Satele: 80
Savage: 75
Grievous: 70
Kit Fisto: 70
Kolar: 65
cool list

Well, this is my list from my opinions.

Luke Skywalker=175(not sure)
Yoda=162
Sidious=160
Tulak Hord=150
Darth Cadeus=145
Exar Kun=140
Darth Bane=110
Anakin=100
Windu=100
Dooku=100
Darth Krayt=90
Darth Wyyrlok III=84
Luke Skywalker(ROTJ)=80
Darth Vader(Suited, ROTJ)=80
Obi Wan Kenobi=80
Darth Maul=80
Grievous(LoE/Old Clone Wars)=78
Malgus=78
Freedon Nadd=77
Revan=76
Vodo Siosk-Baas=74
Saesee Tiin=73
Agen Kolar=72
Kit Fisto=71
Savage Opress=70
Sora Bulq=69
Asajj Ventress=67
Qui Gon Jinn=63
Kas'im=63
Plo Koon=60
Jedi Exile=59
Lord Scourage=58
Grievous(TCW)=52
Naga Sadow=52
Eeth Koth=52
Ludo Kressh=52
Ki Adi Mundi=51
Shaak Ti=50
Adi Gallia=48
Darth Talon=45
Yarel Poof=32
Obi Wan Kenobi(TPM)=29
Obi Wan Kenobi(AOTC)=23
Mangaguard=20
Darth Sion=17
Average Jedi Master(PT)=14
Darth Bandon=9
Sith Emperor=3

Luke Skywalker - 200
Yoda - 180
Sidious (RotS) - 183
Caedus - 179
Mace Windu - 100
Dooku - 95
Revan - 93
Darth Bane - 110
Exar Kun - 90
Darth Malgus - 91
Tulak Hord - 100
Anakin - 100
Obi Wan - 80
Kas'im - 80
Darth Maul (TPM) - 70
Kit Fisto - 70
Cin Drallig - 60
Agen Kolar - 60
Qui Gon (TPM) - 60
Darth Vader - 60
General Grievous - 55
Darth Nyriss - 50
Obi Wan (AotC) - 40
Average Jedi Master: 20
Vitiate: ∞

Originally posted by The Merchant
Luke Skywalker - 200
Yoda - 180
Sidious (RotS) - 183
Caedus - 179
Mace Windu - 100


That's a...pretty big jump from Windu to Yoda.



Is Kit Fisto above Agen Kolar?

Originally posted by The Merchant
Luke Skywalker - 200
Yoda - 180
Sidious (RotS) - 183
Caedus - 179
Mace Windu - 100
Dooku - 95
Revan - 93
Darth Bane - 110
Exar Kun - 90
Darth Malgus - 91
Tulak Hord - 100
Anakin - 100
Obi Wan - 80
Kas'im - 80
Darth Maul (TPM) - 70
Kit Fisto - 70
Cin Drallig - 60
Agen Kolar - 60
Qui Gon (TPM) - 60
Darth Vader - 60
General Grievous - 55
Darth Nyriss - 50
Obi Wan (AotC) - 40
Average Jedi Master: 20
Vitiate: ∞

Nice list, but Vader should be way higher. 80 is perfect for him.

Vader should be higher than Obi-Wan since he would have won whether Obi-Wan let him strike or not.

Not true. Neither could beat the other actually.

My list

Luke:150
Zonakin: 149
Yoda: 135
Sidious: 135
Mace Windu: 120
Count Dooku: 120
Anakin Skywalker: 115
Exar Kun: 115
Kyle Katarn: 115
Darth Bane: 115
Darth Caedus: 115
TCW Darth Maul: 105
Tulak Hord: 105
ROTS Obi Wan Kenobi: 100
Sora Bulq: 100
Darth Malgus: 100
Darth Krayt: 95
Ulic Qel-Droma: 95
Kas'im: 90
Raskta Lsu: 90
Darth Vader: 85
TPM Darth Maul: 85
Sedriss QL: 85
Jaina Solo: 80
Kit Fisto: 80
TPM "I'm mad because you killed my master" Kenobi: 80
Plo Koon: 80
Shaak Ti: 75
Quinlan Vos: 75
Agen Kolar: 75
Saesee Tinn: 75
Qui Gon Jinn: 75
Kao Cen Darach: 75
Asajj Ventress: 70
Satele Shan: 70
Greivous: 65
Galen Marek: 65
Starkiller (clone): 65
AOTC Kenobi: 60
TPM Kenobi: 55
Average Jedi Master: 50
Average Knight: 45
Average Padawan: 35
Vitiate: 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001

Notes: I don't have Hero of Tython or Barsen'thor because I don't know much about either, but from the forums, I've been hearing that they are pretty powerful. Didn't HoT kill Vitiate?

Revan is too much of an unknown so I didn't put him down, but if I did, i would put him around 90-100. Revan is definetly powerful.

Why is Caedus so low?
Caedus couldn't beat Katarn, he threw a shuttle at him. Correct me if i'm wrong. I know that Caedus did some TK to beat Katarn though.

He killed Mara Jade not through saber ability, but by trickery.

And i believe its stated in the book that Luke was fighting recklessly.

Who is Sedriss QL? And why is he rather high?
Sedriss QL was trained by Palpatine. He was likely a Form V user because Vader had influenced nearly nearlty every Imperial Force adept's saber training. His saber ability was enough to make Luke Skywalker resort to TK to beat him.

Why is TCW Maul so high?
Matched Sidious in speed, and after Opress's death, I honestly think Sidious was legitimately trying to whoop Maul's behind.

Why is Ulic Qel-Droma so high?
Duel Exar Kun to what appeared to be a stalemate.

Why is Exar Kun so high?
Mastered Niman like no one else did. And no one ever did it like him again. He changed the power settings and length of his saber during combat, throwing people off guard. And the main weakness of a saber staff, the large target, wasn't present in Kun's weapon. And he could spin that thing QUICK.

Why is Bane equal to Skywalker? Isn't he better?
Honestly, I say Bane at best is equal to Skywalker. Both mastered Djem So. Both are very fast. Both are very strong.

Jaina Solo is at 80? But she beat Caedus!
In a rage fueled fury, and she was being amped by Luke Skywalker. And the sad thing is, Caedus had the upper hand, and could have killed her, but decided not to.

I think I answered the main questions on my list.

Originally posted by XRKun
Notes: I don't have Hero of Tython or Barsen'thor because I don't know much about either, but from the forums, I've been hearing that they are pretty powerful. Didn't HoT kill Vitiate?

Yes. There was arguments about whether it was truly Vitiate or simply his Voice (a being he stored his power and consciousness into) but one of the TOR writers said that it was indeed him in an interview.

XR, ur using the same thing jensaarai does about sedriss thing. It's the flimsiest argument one could make.

Originally posted by XRKun
My list


Your list has missed the point since Anakin is not a 100 on it.

lol

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your list has missed the point since Anakin is not a 100 on it.
OHHHHH SO I CANT EDIT THE POST?

Luke:135
Zonakin: 134
Yoda: 120
Sidious: 120
Mace Windu: 105
Count Dooku: 105
Anakin Skywalker: 100
Exar Kun: 100
Kyle Katarn: 100
Darth Bane: 100
Darth Caedus: 100
TCW Darth Maul: 90
Tulak Hord: 90
ROTS Obi Wan Kenobi: 85
Sora Bulq: 85
Darth Malgus: 85
Darth Krayt: 80
Ulic Qel-Droma: 80
Kas'im: 75
Raskta Lsu: 75
Darth Vader: 70
TPM Darth Maul: 70
Sedriss QL: 70
Jaina Solo: 65
Kit Fisto: 65
TPM "I'm mad because you killed my master" Kenobi: 65
Plo Koon: 65
Shaak Ti: 60
Quinlan Vos: 60
Agen Kolar: 60
Saesee Tinn: 60
Qui Gon Jinn: 60
Kao Cen Darach: 60
Asajj Ventress: 55
Satele Shan: 55
Greivous: 50
Galen Marek: 50
Starkiller (clone): 50
AOTC Kenobi: 45
TPM Kenobi: 40
Average Jedi Master: 35
Average Knight: 30
Average Padawan: 20
Vitiate: 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001

There. Happy now?

Why isn't Vitate higher than TPM Kenobi? They say 300 years had passed since the Revan novel.

Originally posted by XRKun


There. Happy now?

Why are Galen Marek and Ventress so low? Seems a bit strange considering even the Galen clone was matching Vader equally in Sabers. And given the trouble Ventress has given Kenobi in the past.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Why are Galen Marek and Ventress so low? Seems a bit strange considering even the Galen clone was matching Vader equally in Sabers. And given the trouble Ventress has given Kenobi in the past.

Ventress is probably a little higher, but Galen Marek/Starkiller Clone had the TRASHIEST saber skills. The original Marek was said to be able to block Vader's blows with precision in their final duel, but was still being overwhelmed and had to resort to TK and Lightning. And the Starkiller clone was disarmed and had to rely on using tutaminis on a physical lightning bolt to overwhelm Vader.

Lol.

Galen's lightsaber skills were stated to be 'near perfect.'

And in both the game and the book he beats Vader in lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol.

Galen's lightsaber skills were stated to be 'near perfect.'

And in both the game and the book he beats Vader in lightsaber combat.

Everywhere I've heard it said that Galen wasn't exactly great in sabers. Plus he only became proficient in Juyo, he never mastered it.

Originally posted by XRKun
Everywhere I've heard it said that Galen wasn't exactly great in sabers. Plus he only became proficient in Juyo, he never mastered it.

They're wrong.

Maybe thats why he's only nearly perfect.

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
Why isn't Vitate higher than TPM Kenobi? They say 300 years had passed since the Revan novel.

He doesn't get much practice, and I'd think he'd have to adjust to each new body.

Darth Caba: 154

Darth Karnage: 123

I thought Karnage was winning in the other thread o_O

It's still up for debate. Some of the feats others have mentioned of Caba have impressed me.

Using the Vader = 80% of the Emperor in the Force but absolutely outclassed by him precedent, and considering Anakin in his first half of the duel w/Dooku.

Luke Skywalker - 160
Wankatine - 145
Caedus - 145
Amp! Windu - 145
Yoda - 140
Sidious (RotS) - 140
Mace Windu - 100
Dooku - 100
Darth Krayt - 90
Kyle Katarn - 90
Exar Kun - 85
Tulak Hord - 85
Darth Malgus - 80
Obi Wan - 80
Darth Bane - 80
Darth Vader - 80
Darth Maul (TPM) - 70
Kas'im - 65
Kit Fisto - 65
Cin Drallig - 65
Qui Gon (TPM) - 65
Revan - 65
Agen Kolar - 60
Anakin (AotC) - 60
General Grievous - 55
Obi Wan (AotC) - 55
Darth Nyriss - 50
Average Jedi Master: 20
Vitiate: 5

I miss 13 year old me.

You mean when Tempest ruled and LeGenD was the face of TOR? No thanks.

Also, how tf is Caedus > Yoda as a swordsman?

Idk, his performance against Luke I guess.

Didn't Caedus use poison on Luke, and strangle him? You know before being shat on?

IIRC, their saber duel wasn't exactly much of a saber duel, lel.

Yeah I think Caedus survived so long because Luke wasn't thinking clearly. Caedus survived at several points off of tactics and if Luke was more level headed I doubt he would've gotten away with it.

"Luke had beaten him. Luke had just kept coming despite his injuries. He had inflicted more damage on Caedus than he had suffered himself, and he even escaped the garrote before Ben struck. In fact, it was probably that attack that saved Caedus' life. Nothing else could have shocked Luke out of his battle rage-only the sight of Ben slipping so far to the Dark Side."
-Inferno pg. 266

What the-

These guys should all be in the 100-120 range, lol.

^ see Palpatine vs pre vaapad Windu

^ basically, the Stover novelization suggests a really large gap between Sidious and unamped Windu, which leads me to believe that there's a large space between the Yoda/Windu and the Dooku/base Windu/Anakin tier. I'm not even sure if anyone exists in between that gap; Caedus seems to be pretty close to Yoda/Sidious.

It seems like Luke/Yoda/Sidious/Caedus are massive outliers in galactic history with respect to dueling ability, with nobody else really coming close without particularly amps like vaapad. Windu/Dooku/Anakin occupy the leading edge of the rest of the bell curve.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Using the Vader = 80% of the Emperor in the Force but absolutely outclassed by him precedent, and considering Anakin in his first half of the duel w/Dooku.

Luke Skywalker - 160
Wankatine - 145
Caedus - 145
Amp! Windu - 145
Yoda - 140
Sidious (RotS) - 140
Mace Windu - 100
Dooku - 100
Darth Krayt - 90
Kyle Katarn - 90
Exar Kun - 85
Tulak Hord - 85
Darth Malgus - 80
Obi Wan - 80
Darth Bane - 80
Darth Vader - 80
Darth Maul (TPM) - 70
Kas'im - 65
Kit Fisto - 65
Cin Drallig - 65
Qui Gon (TPM) - 65
Revan - 65
Agen Kolar - 60
Anakin (AotC) - 60
General Grievous - 55
Obi Wan (AotC) - 55
Darth Nyriss - 50
Average Jedi Master: 20
Vitiate: 5

Kyle katarn 90?

Hahahaha, just noticed that. That's kind of retarded. Just like Caedus being above Sidious. And Dooku being 100 compared to Sidious also being 100, even if it's compared to Anakin.

Luke Skywalker - 160
Wankatine - 145
Anakin ("Zone" - 140
Amp! Windu - 140
Yoda - 135
Sidious (RotS) - 135
Caedus - 130
Anakin (after Obi Wan falls, probably base) - 120
Darth Krayt - 120
Anakin (before Obi Wan falls) - 100
Mace Windu - 100
Dooku - 100
Exar Kun - 100
Darth Vader (RotJ) - 100
Jaina Solo - 95
Tulak Hord - 85
Obi Wan - 85
Galen Marek - 80
Kyle Katarn - 80
Revan - 80
Arcann - 75
Darth Maul (TPM) - 75
Kit Fisto - 75
Cin Drallig - 70
Grievous - 70
Darth Malgus - 70
Qui Gon (TPM) - 65
Anakin (AotC) - 65
Darth Bane - 60
Obi Wan (AotC) - 60
Darth Nyriss - 60
Kas'im - 45
Average Jedi Master: 20

I guess this uses 120 as base Anakin, oh well.

^
Amped Windu is stated to be equal to Palpatine, who should be - as dueslit - slightly inferior to Yoda. More like that:
Yoda - 140
Sidious - 135
Amped!Windu - 135

Also, Dooku, Windu and regular Anakin would do better against Yoda, then Kit Fisto, for example, against them. They should be more like 110-115.
After Obi-Wan fall, Anakin was't stronger in his duel against Dooku. And Zonakin should be between 120-160 at that point.