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Despero- Vice and Virtue

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/31666/746652-despero_1.jpg

VS

The X-Men

Archangel
Juggernaut
Cable
Namor
Emma Frost
Havok
Colossus
Cyclops
Ice-Man
Storm

Despero wins

Cain stops him dead.

X-men imho

Originally posted by iceman24567
Despero wins

Depends entirely on which version of Cable. Emma can likely shield Juggernaut from telepathic intrusion (once Despero rips the helmet off), so Juggs could do some damage too.

If Emma does that, won't she be super squishy? Or can she be diamond and telepathic now?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
If Emma does that, won't she be super squishy? Or can she be diamond and telepathic now?

I assume she wouldn't enter the fray. Her tp can work from a distance, yes?

Probably Despero wins anyway, but that's the X-Men's path to victory. God Cable + Juggs could do some damage.

Originally posted by Digi
I assume she wouldn't enter the fray. Her tp can work from a distance, yes?

Probably Despero wins anyway, but that's the X-Men's path to victory. God Cable + Juggs could do some damage.


What stops Cain from holding Despero while Archangel cuts his ugly head off?

Oh yeah, its Archangel...I was trying to see how Angel would be of use...

Originally posted by Stoic
What stops Cain from holding Despero while Archangel cuts his ugly head off?

The fact that Despero was concussing Superman and Cpt. Marvel simultaneously, and that it took a team of top tiers to handle him.

srug

I don't think any solution this simple would work.

Originally posted by Digi
The fact that Despero was concussing Superman and Cpt. Marvel simultaneously, and that it took a team of top tiers to handle him.

srug

I don't think any solution this simple would work.


Cain isn't Superman, and has the ability to root himself while moving forward. Cain was able to hold Thor with ease while he was on his A game so I can't see Despero easily breaking free from someone like him in the time that it would take for Archangel to behead him.

None of the guys that Despero put down fought him with a brain, they just flew in and got handled. Superman alone has taken better than that in the past so the feat was dubious at best.

x-men could win but they would have to have there shit together with no mistakes juggernaut is the key cable and emma and his helmet namor helping a little on the beat down the x-men have a good shot.

Originally posted by Stoic
Cain isn't Superman, and has the ability to root himself while moving forward. Cain was able to hold Thor with ease while he was on his A game so I can't see Despero easily breaking free from someone like him in the time that it would take for Archangel to behead him.

None of the guys that Despero put down fought him with a brain, they just flew in and got handled. Superman alone has taken better than that in the past so the feat was dubious at best.


Warren is still vulnerable to psi attack, correct?

If so Despero lashes out with a blast that shut J'onn down.

Emma can shield her team, not just one at a time.

Despero.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Emma can shield her team, not just one at a time.

V&V Despero is much more powerful than Emma

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Warren is still vulnerable to psi attack, correct?

If so Despero lashes out with a blast that shut J'onn down.

Doesn't that make Warren even more dangerous? I mean his wings are sentient, and have been known to continue the assault while his mind has been compromised.

Originally posted by Cogito
V&V Despero is much more powerful than Emma
Based on what?

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Based on what?

Based on repeatedly being shown as a more powerful telepath than J'onn, who is, at the very worst, Emma's level.

Originally posted by Cogito
Based on repeatedly being shown as a more powerful telepath than J'onn, who is, at the very worst, Emma's level.

They aren't the same at all. J'onn may in fact be more powerful offensively than Emma (may be is key here), but this is not to say that his defenses are as great as hers are. Emma may be able to hold Despero off long enough for this to remain solely physical. At any rate they have as good of a chance of winning this as he does.

Originally posted by Stoic
They aren't the same at all. J'onn may in fact be more powerful offensively than Emma (may be is key here), but this is not to say that his defenses are as great as hers are. Emma may be able to hold Despero off long enough for this to remain solely physical. At any rate they have as good of a chance of winning this as he does.

Ok, now prove that not only are Emma's TP defenses greater than J'onn's, but also that her ability to shield others is greater than J'onn's ability to shield himself.

X-Men win handily

Originally posted by Cogito
Ok, now prove that not only are Emma's TP defenses greater than J'onn's, but also that her ability to shield others is greater than J'onn's ability to shield himself.

Well actually what i said was pretty much that no one can prove anything in terms of either being greater than the other. However let's not make this about Emma vs Despero alone, because that is simply not the case. Cain is capable of tanking planet shattering blows with a smile on his face, so I highly doubt that Despero is going to be putting a whole lot of damage on him. Warren has wings that could also cut his head clean off, and as we know, Warren isn't exactly the slow type. The X-Men certainly have the tools to win this on paper, and win it quickly.

Originally posted by Stoic
Well actually what i said was pretty much that no one can prove anything in terms of either being greater than the other. However let's not make this about Emma vs Despero alone, because that is simply not the case. Cain is capable of tanking planet shattering blows with a smile on his face, so I highly doubt that Despero is going to be putting a whole lot of damage on him. Warren has wings that could also cut his head clean off, and as we know, Warren isn't exactly the slow type. The X-Men certainly have the tools to win this on paper, and win it quickly.

Despero has legit super speed, so Warren's hardly an issue. He can possess anyone on the X-Men team. He's wiped the floor with J'onn and Aquaman in TP. He's beaten the JLA singlehandedly, he's defeated 4 Superman level beings singlehandedly (Supes, CM, PG, WW). This team is an f'ing joke.

Originally posted by Cogito
Despero has legit super speed, so Warren's hardly an issue. He can possess anyone on the X-Men team. He's wiped the floor with J'onn and Aquaman in TP. He's beaten the JLA singlehandedly, he's defeated 4 Superman level beings singlehandedly (Supes, CM, PG, WW). This team is an f'ing joke.

You continue to make this into a one on one with Despero when he (Warren) would have all of the help that he needs. You even discounted the time that Superman alone was able to handle him. This team is no joke. You're also using a team of guys that fought him like they would if they just discovered that they had powers and didn't know how to use them. Black Adam as i recall did the same thing to even more hero's than Despero did, but i wouldn't hand him the victory over Thor because he fought a team that was equally holding back to suit the plot.

Originally posted by Stoic
You continue to make this into a one on one with Despero when he (Warren) would have all of the help that he needs. You even discounted the time that Superman alone was able to handle him. This team is no joke. You're also using a team of guys that fought him like they would if they just discovered that they had powers and didn't know how to use them. Black Adam as i recall did the same thing to even more hero's than Despero did, but i wouldn't hand him the victory over Thor because he fought a team that was equally holding back to suit the plot.

1. I just listed times Despero manhandled teams, so I don't know how that's making it 1v1
2. This is V&V Despero, where he manhandled teams

Originally posted by Cogito
1. I just listed times Despero manhandled teams, so I don't know how that's making it 1v1
2. This is V&V Despero, where he manhandled teams

A team that clearly did not use their powers to the best of their abilities. They just flew in and got handled. Superman as i said has withstood more than being skull planted into Captain Marvel in the past. They fought like they didn't know how to use their powers, and were clearly defeated for plot purposes. Despero has been taken down by less.

Originally posted by Cogito
Ok, now prove that not only are Emma's TP defenses greater than J'onn's, but also that her ability to shield others is greater than J'onn's ability to shield himself.

Yeah, i dont see it either.

Despero has been taken down by less, true...

But this is a specific, herald team busting incarnation.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Despero has been taken down by less, true...

But this is a specific, herald team busting incarnation.

Did you see that team operating anywhere near Herald level? More like a bunch of Meta level characters posing as the originals. All the same, Despero could win this, but I see nothing outrageous in thinking that this particular X-Men team could win either.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Despero has been taken down by less, true...

But this is a specific, herald team busting incarnation.

Despero was so uber, he made the heralds fight like idiots.

Originally posted by Cogito
Despero has legit super speed wat

Originally posted by ODG
wat


I know. I was trying to think of a time that he showed this super speed as well.

Originally posted by ODG
wat

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/103530/2390406-2.png

You think he accomplished this with normal speed?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/126281/3124962-not+sure+if+serious+zod.gif

Originally posted by ODG
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/126281/3124962-not+sure+if+serious+zod.gif

Did you read VIRTUE AND VICE?

Originally posted by ODG
wat

He fights with speedsters in the JLA, and wins.

Here he is chasing J'onn, who's moving pretty quick
Originally posted by Estacado
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/9949/769497894mb.th.jpg


Anyways, he's easily faster than anyone on the X-Men team, and nobody in their right mind would argue that.

Originally posted by Cogito
He fights with speedsters in the JLA, and wins.

Here he is chasing J'onn, who's moving pretty quick


Anyways, he's easily faster than anyone on the X-Men team, and nobody in their right mind would argue that.

I can't believe Despero's super-speed is being questioned here.

Originally posted by Cogito
He fights with speedsters in the JLA, and wins.

Here he is chasing J'onn, who's moving pretty quick

Anyways, he's easily faster than anyone on the X-Men team, and nobody in their right mind would argue that. People without superspeed have beaten superspeedsters.

I don't recall ever denying Despero had flight speed.

Because he has no combat speed feats? Good to know.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
I can't believe Despero's super-speed is being questioned here.

Me either. He's no Flash, but he's fast enough.

Prior to Despero performing Stooge-Jitsu to Captain Marvel and Superman, you had a whole squad flying at him full speed the page before.

^ I don't recall ever doubting that his opponents could fly at superspeeds to rush him.

Originally posted by ODG
^ I don't recall ever doubting that his opponents could fly at superspeeds to rush him.

His opponents, all being experienced heroes, would fly at Despero at superspeed and then give up the tactical advantage by then attacking at normal speed?

^ Speak English, please. Arguing that characters other than Despero have superspeed isn't proving that Despero himself has superspeed.

So, somebody who can hang with MM in flight speed and beat speedsters in combat lacks the combat feats to beat a bunch of mostly peak human mutants? Again, this argument started with the contention that Warren is fast enough to decapitate Despero (which obviously means Warren would be too fast for Despero to be able to react to...e.g block, dodge, TP, or a thousand other options)

Nope.

Originally posted by ODG
^ Speak English, please. Arguing that characters other than Despero have superspeed isn't proving that Despero himself has superspeed.

How. Did. Despero. Hit. Several. Speedsters.Who.Attacked. As. A. Group. In. Rapid. Succession.Without. Having. Super-speed?

^ If you don't know, read the comic.

Originally posted by ODG
^ If you don't know, read the comic.

Pathetic.

I accept your concession.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Pathetic.

I accept your concession. I'm not here to make your argument for you.

Just because his opponents have superspeed doesn't make Despero superfast. Otherwise Hulk is a lightspeedster combatant.

This is just common sense.

But if this is the best argument for Despero having superspeed: Superman has superspeed.

Well then, case closed.

Originally posted by Cogito
So, somebody who can hang with MM in flight speed and beat speedsters in combat lacks the combat feats to beat a bunch of mostly peak human mutants? Again, this argument started with the contention that Warren is fast enough to decapitate Despero (which obviously means Warren would be too fast for Despero to be able to react to...e.g block, dodge, TP, or a thousand other options)

Nope.

Either way, Despero wins.

Originally posted by Cogito
So, somebody who can hang with MM in flight speed and beat speedsters in combat lacks the combat feats to beat a bunch of mostly peak human mutants? Again, this argument started with the contention that Warren is fast enough to decapitate Despero (which obviously means Warren would be too fast for Despero to be able to react to...e.g block, dodge, TP, or a thousand other options)

Nope. Flight speed is rather irrelevant. I mean... Thor flies at many times the speed of light, that doesn't make give him FTL combat superspeed. Thor and Hulk have also beaten speedsters. A bunch of them. That doesn't give them FTL combat superspeed.

Again, if you're trying to prove that everybody else but Despero has superspeed. Great. Mission accomplished. I don't recall ever disputing that other characters other than Despero have superspeed.

Originally posted by ODG
I'm not here to make your argument for you.

Just because his opponents have superspeed doesn't make Despero superfast. Otherwise Hulk is a lightspeedster combatant.

This is just common sense.

But if this is the best argument for Despero having superspeed: Superman has superspeed.

Well then, case closed.

Common sense would dictate that Despero must have super-speed to deal with simultaneous attacks from opponents attacking with super-speed.

Please show a comprable feat performed by the Hulk in a context exactly like the one in VIRTUE and VICE.

ODG, remember the group of speedsters must be flying at super-speed toward the Hulk before they attack.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Common sense would dictate that Despero must have super-speed to deal with simultaneous attacks from opponents attacking with super-speed.

Please show a comprable feat performed by the Hulk in a context exactly like the one in VIRTUE and VICE. Common sense dictates that focusing on every character other than Despero having superspeed, doesn't prove Despero himself has superspeed.

Please let me know when you are actually going to make an argument for Despero's superspeed. A feat would help.

Originally posted by ODG
Common sense dictates that focusing on every character other than Despero having superspeed, doesn't prove Despero himself has superspeed.

Please let me know when you are actually going to make an argument for Despero's superspeed. A feat would help .

Page 2 of this thread.

This really is pathetic.

Daredevil beats Martian Manhunter by giving him some drug laced Oreos.

Someone argues that Daredevil can beat Emma Frost. An Emma supporter cites her psi powers and in response the Daredevil fan says " Daredevil beat Martian Manhunter so he can beat Emma".

While the statement is factually correct it doesn't address Daredevil's resistance to psionic attack.

All you CAN post are beings who POSSESS super-speed attacking The Hulk at normal speed and then pull a Daredevil.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Page 2 of this thread. I saw a flight speed feat and nothing else. And I've never disputed Despero can fly at great speeds. Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
This really is pathetic.

Daredevil beats Martian Manhunter by giving him some drug laced Oreos.

Someone argues that Daredevil can beat Emma Frost. An Emma supporter cites her psi powers and in response the Daredevil fan says " Daredevil beat Martian Manhunter so he can beat Emma".

While the statement is factually correct it doesn't address Daredevil's resistance to psionic attack.

All you CAN post are beings who POSSESS super-speed attacking The Hulk at normal speed and then pull a Daredevil. On this forum, we typically speak English. Not gibberish.

If you were trying to convince me that Despero has no combat superspeed feats though. I'm pretty well convinced.

Originally posted by ODG
I saw a flight speed feat and nothing else. And I've never disputed Despero can fly at great speeds. On this forum, we typically speak English. Not gibberish.

If you were trying to convince me that Despero has no combat superspeed feats though. I'm pretty well convinced.

You're ill equiped to pull of this pedantic act, sir.

You've failed.

Miserably.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Your ill equiped to pull of this pedantic act, sir.

You've failed.

Miserably. I'm ill equipped to judge Despero's superspeed. Because I've been given absolutely nothing to work with.

That failure is nobody's.

Because, well, Despero is a fictional character and isn't responsible for not having a single combat superspeed feat to his name.

The feat in question involves Despero crushing Marvel and Superman as the last of a group who attacked him at super-speed.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
The feat in question involves Despero crushing Marvel and Superman as the last of a group who attacked him at super-speed. Oh this you mean?

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/ViceVirtue02.jpg

Actually, Hawkman was the last of the group and got the best shot in at Despero the very next panel -- http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/ViceVirtue04.jpg :

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/ViceVirtue03.jpg

Guess since we're working with this ridiculous false absolute that everyone, including Despero, had to have been fighting at superspeeds, Hawkman's the fastest of them all.

dur

Did you even state who wins, ODG? lol. If you pick the mutant scum, I'll e-Kill ya!

^ Clearly, Hawkman wins. He outclasses everyone in superspeed here.

KM did say he flies at light speed. So, yes, he is one of the fastest here. Everyone always sleeps on Hawkman.

Originally posted by ODG
Oh this you mean?

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/ViceVirtue02.jpg

Actually, Hawkman was the last of the group and got the best shot in at Despero the very next panel -- http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/ViceVirtue04.jpg :

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/ViceVirtue03.jpg

Guess since we're working with this ridiculous false absolute that everyone, including Despero, had to have been fighting at superspeeds, Hawkman's the fastest of them all.

dur

You're flailing badly.

The "GROUP" in question is the one we've been referencing for several pages now. The Herald group.

This is the scan you would've shown if you weren't running for cover.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/2/27470/998912-jlajsavv_82.jpg

Hawkman out of this one.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
You're flailing badly.

The "GROUP" in question is the one we've been referencing for several pages now. The Herald group.

This is the scan you would've shown if you weren't running for cover.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/2/27470/998912-jlajsavv_82.jpg

Hawkman out of this one. First of all, Hourman isn't exactly on Superman's, Captain Marvel's or Wonder Woman's speed level from what I've read. Feel free to post a scan proving otherwise. Prefereably not a scan that shows every other character but Hourman using superspeed, like you're doing with Despero right now.

I mean, if that didn't give you pause, I'm still not sure why you're completely ignoring Hawkman.

Supposedly, Despero is fighting at superspeeds. How did Hawkman tag him so cleanly? Because he does it immediately after he clunks Kal's and Bill's heads at supposed superspeeds. This being the incontrovertible superspeed feat of Despero's you kept directing me to. Originally posted by Golgo13
KM did say he flies at light speed. So, yes, he is one of the fastest here. Everyone always sleeps on Hawkman. wat

Originally posted by ODG
First of all, Hourman isn't exactly on Superman's, Captain Marvel's or Wonder Woman's speed level from what I've read. Feel free to post a scan proving otherwise. Prefereably not a scan that shows every other character but Hourman using superspeed, like you're doing with Despero right now.

I mean, if that didn't give you pause, I'm still not sure why you're completely ignoring Hawkman.

Supposedly, Despero is fighting at superspeeds. How did Hawkman tag him so cleanly? Because he does it immediately after he clunks Kal's and Bill's heads at supposed superspeeds. This being the incontrovertible superspeed feat of Despero's you kept directing me to. wat

KM posted a scan of HM flying at FTL speeds or close. It was a one time feat, I think.

Originally posted by Golgo13
KM posted a scan of HM flying at FTL speeds or close. It was a one time feat, I think. By all means, post the scan or a link of Hawkman being FTL.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
How. Did. Despero. Hit. Several. Speedsters.Who.Attacked. As. A. Group. In. Rapid. Succession.Without. Having. Super-speed? facepalm

^ Apparently, just being in the same page or panel-space as Superman makes Despero, Hourman and Hawkman all FTL superspeedsters.

The Super-Doppler Effect.

Yeah, Even the tattered American flag being tugged by Superman with intent to (tighten it up for those cool September nights) was made more powerful.

Good catch

He calls in backup.

You're even more desperate than I thought.

^ Back up for what? It's not like I've even had a single Despero superspeed feat to contend with yet.

Let us know when you get those scans showing Hourman is a FTL speedster.

Yeah, despero has no superspeed. Look how he totally doesn't tag a speeding flash.

http://i42.tinypic.com/2hia3ah.gif

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, despero has no superspeed. Look how he totally doesn't tag a speeding flash.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BPewrHgdpE

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, despero has no superspeed. Look how he totally doesn't tag a speeding flash.

Well, if he's fast enough to tag Flash, he should solo in about a second.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, despero has no superspeed. Look how he totally doesn't tag a speeding flash.

Hope you're not pulling a Hulkfan, and taking high showings from his other appearances and stacking them onto the showings from his strongest incarnation....

Originally posted by Tony Stark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BPewrHgdpE

Fail.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Well, if he's fast enough to tag Flash, he should solo in about a second. So is Deathstroke.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hope you're not pulling a Hulkfan, and taking high showings from his other appearances and stacking them onto the showings from his strongest incarnation....



Fail.
That's written by the guy who wrote Virtue and Vice too, i.e. Geoff Johns.

Despero vs flash in a 100m dash

^Hulk loses.

Originally posted by ODG
So is Deathstroke.

So what's it take to satisfy you? You ask for speed feats. You got combat speed feats, you got massive travel speed feats (Nice supplemental evidence which Hawkman/Deathstroke don't have going btw).

What the phuck would it take to satisfy you? Does the writer's narration have to say he was moving between nanoseconds?

Anyways, doesn't DEspero have the one shot paralysing third eye?

Also Johns didn't write Flash being tagged by Deathstroke. Johns' Flash was a beast speed wise and he didn't write non-speedsters fighting speedsters THAT evenly. Remember Zoom vs Rogues and just how easily he dismantled them?

Originally posted by Cogito
So what's it take to satisfy you? You ask for speed feats. You got combat speed feats, you got massive travel speed feats (Nice supplemental evidence which Hawkman/Deathstroke don't have going btw).

What the phuck would it take to satisfy you? Does the writer's narration have to say he was moving between nanoseconds? What are you talking about? I haven't seen a single combat speed feat at all. Flying speed is completely irrelevant no matter how much you want to backhandedly sggest otherwise.

Maybe a single combat speed feat? That wouldn't satisfy me, but it would damn well at least be a start.

I think we should all just agree to disagree.

^ Rather than have it proven definitively that Despero hasn't a combat superspeed feat to his name? Sure, why not. Not exactly my goal to prove a negative here.

Let's just leave it up in the air also whether Hawkman and Hourman are also FTL speedsters. Because these conversations haven't been tortured or lacking any evidentiary value at all.

Yeah, lets get to the fight at hand.

Originally posted by ODG
By all means, post the scan or a link of Hawkman being FTL.

Not sure why I was brought up, but here is the scan in question. Hawkman and Hawkgirl flew lightspeed ONCE in Pre-Crisis. They have never ever came close to replicating this feat again. Wonders of Pre-Crisis stories.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/Hawkman_24-14.jpg

I thought it was a post crisis feat. Ah well.