Wonder Woman w/Mjlonir vs OWAW Superman

Stoic

Originally posted by JBL
WW does not have to be stronger than superman to beat him. Shes faster in combat speed and has thors hammer, he will get hit with it. WW wins 8/10.

OWAW Superman was tutored on the usage of his abilities by Mongul though. his combat speed performance was nothing to sneer at. The hammer may stack with Diana's power set though, which could make her into a Super Thor type of character, however this is not always the case as seen when Bill got the hammer. I mean if he was able to stand toe to toe with Thor without the hammer, he should have become far more powerful with it. He didn't. shrug.

iceman24567

LOL at Wonder Woman having better combat speed than Superman. She may have some serious reflexes but Superman pimpslaps her face off

Zack Fair

Here we go again.

abhilegend

Originally posted by JBL
WW does not have to be stronger than superman to beat him. Shes faster in combat speed and has thors hammer, he will get hit with it. WW wins 8/10.
Who said she's faster than him? He has left her in the dust in speed and just because a butthurt writer who was getting owned on a message board tried to insert his views in comics doesn't means anything.

Q99

Originally posted by abhilegend
Who said she's faster than him?

She does and Batman does, and when they pressed Superman was willing to give on the issue.

Note, the writer's comments actually stacks up with observed performance- she does extremely well against high-end speedsters like Zoom, Flash, etc., and in Sacrifice, when they got into HtH she landed more hits than vice-versa. Plus one of her 'things' is deflecting large volleys of projectiles, even lasers/heat vision, with rapid arm movements.

Her having faster arm/reflex speeds fit with what's shown, not just by one writer, but by many.

Zack Fair

Does Superman perform worse than Diana against speedsters?

Diesldude

This is spite. Regular superman wins this. OWAW superman thrashes her.
Carver what's next WW vs Thor without his hammer?

abhilegend

Originally posted by Q99
She does and Batman does, and when they pressed Superman was willing to give on the issue. Batman has also said he would rely on superman's reflexes when they were sharing powers instead of wonder woman's in Trinity. Stop acting like McDuffie who admitted that he was nerfing superman on purpose means its a universal truth.

She "does" well against speedsters? Zoom was handling her like a child in both of his fights untill Rucka intervened with Zoom distracting himself in the first fight. Superman actually races speedsters on foot and does respectfully well against them to the point that barry allen was frustrated that superman stalemates him while holding back.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/16702626_barrylulz.jpg

In Rebirth Superman matched Barry in speed when he left everybody including wonder woman in dust.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11897291_13.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11897292_14.jpg

Professor Zoom tells that superman's reflexes nearly match his own

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_TimeMasters-VanishingPoint5022.jpg

He catches Wally who was running out of control by racing him

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Speed/flight/JLAClassified16a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Speed/flight/JLAClassified16b.jpg

He has blitzed Bizarro who wonder woman had difficulty even seeing when he hit her etc.

In sacrifice he actually blitzed her and took her to the sun. The fact that he was missing hitting her due to the size difference between doomsday and her doesn't means shit. Batman has deflected lasers and HV too with ain-dodging, superman has raced lasers outright and came out on top.

Name one writer outside of mcduffie. Superman would stomp her in speed feats, he is outright stated to be in Flash's league in speed. Wonder Woman wishes she could be near superman in speed.

iceman24567

Yeah no way she can beat him in speed feats

Zack Fair

Knew it.

Q99

And, y'know, their direct fights against each other.

It's always funny how many people have trouble accepting that they match up like they actually have matched up.

Golgo13

LOL@ WW being faster. Superman wins.

Batman-Prime

OWAW Superman operated on trans levels at least, though WW would be close with mjolnir she still would get her ass handed to her.

h1a8

The hammer would slow her down. She would be quicker in her strikes without it. OWAW Superman was pretty fast. Speed and skill is the key to winning here. I say Superman wins.

JBL

Originally posted by iceman24567
LOL at Wonder Woman having better combat speed than Superman. She may have some serious reflexes but Superman pimpslaps her face off LOL at you not knowing what you are talking about. It has been proven that WW is faster combat wise on-panel. Also lol at people using feats of superman keeping up with flash when has made superman look like a fool when he WANTED TO. Flash already told superman that he only keeps up with him when he lets him, and the zoom scan gets a double LOL because when flash fought Zoom, superman was a freaking statue. Guess why superman could not help? Well, he was not fast enough, all on panel and not fan thought up.This is getting old yet its still funny how supes fans try and even the so-called speed thing. wink

JBL

Originally posted by abhilegend
Batman has also said he would rely on superman's reflexes when they were sharing powers instead of wonder woman's in Trinity. Stop acting like McDuffie who admitted that he was nerfing superman on purpose means its a universal truth.

She "does" well against speedsters? Zoom was handling her like a child in both of his fights untill Rucka intervened with Zoom distracting himself in the first fight. Superman actually races speedsters on foot and does respectfully well against them to the point that barry allen was frustrated that superman stalemates him while holding back.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/16702626_barrylulz.jpg

In Rebirth Superman matched Barry in speed when he left everybody including wonder woman in dust.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11897291_13.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/11897292_14.jpg

Professor Zoom tells that superman's reflexes nearly match his own

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_TimeMasters-VanishingPoint5022.jpg

He catches Wally who was running out of control by racing him

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Speed/flight/JLAClassified16a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Speed/flight/JLAClassified16b.jpg

He has blitzed Bizarro who wonder woman had difficulty even seeing when he hit her etc.

In sacrifice he actually blitzed her and took her to the sun. The fact that he was missing hitting her due to the size difference between doomsday and her doesn't means shit. Batman has deflected lasers and HV too with ain-dodging, superman has raced lasers outright and came out on top.

Name one writer outside of mcduffie. Superman would stomp her in speed feats, he is outright stated to be in Flash's league in speed. Wonder Woman wishes she could be near superman in speed. Thats a flat out lie. Superman is not in flash league and it was proven ON-PANEL plenty of times.

Batman-Prime

Originally posted by JBL
Thats a flat out lie. Superman is not in flash league and it was proven ON-PANEL plenty of times.

Different writers different opinions. On panel you have statements from flash that differ. So all in all he is close enough.

JBL

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Different writers different opinions. On panel you have statements from flash that differ. So all in all he is close enough. Statements means nothing when flash leaves him in the dust on-panel and we watch on-panel where supes is as useless as batman when flash fought zoom. Superman could NEVER repeat what flash has done on-panel with speed.

Golgo13

What's WW's best speed feat? Scans.

-Pr-

JBL, stop it. We get it. You hate Superman.

Abhi, cut it out. You're going OTT yet again.

Also, shame on anyone bringing McDuffie's petty message board influenced writing in to this.

abhilegend

Originally posted by Q99
And, y'know, their direct fights against each other.

It's always funny how many people have trouble accepting that they match up like they actually have matched up.
Which fights would those be?

abhilegend

Originally posted by JBL
Thats a flat out lie. Superman is not in flash league and it was proven ON-PANEL plenty of times.
Of course he is, flash is faster but he can still keep up untill flash uses his top speed.

Branlor Swift

WW has two wins against Superman in fights where he was really trying to hurt her.

But she really shouldn't win. Even with Mjolnir, I have a hard time seeing her beat him in threads. srug

quanchi112

WW wins.

dial J for Josh

Originally posted by -Pr-
JBL, stop it. We get it. You hate Superman.

Abhi, cut it out. You're going OTT yet again.

Also, shame on anyone bringing McDuffie's petty message board influenced writing in to this.

That's right -Pr- the sith master laying down the law!

Golgo13

YEEEEAHHH!

dial J for Josh

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
WW has two wins against Superman in fights where he was really trying to hurt her.

But she really shouldn't win. Even with Mjolnir, I have a hard time seeing her beat him in threads. srug

I was not aware of this how many wins does Superman have over ww? Are they even or does one have the one up over the other?

abhilegend

Branlor Swift

Originally posted by dial J for Josh
I was not aware of this how many wins does Superman have over ww? Are they even or does one have the one up over the other? I don't recall any Superman wins over WW that's canon, though it should be noted that every fight he appears superior, or most anyway.

The old slap away fight was one such fight. As well as the "kicking" fight. In Sacrifice he kicked the shit out of her, but lost. As well as in the "Doomsday" fight where Circe turns him into a Doomsday, where he laid a beating on her but was taken down by the lasso, though that could be attributed to the Doomsday thing, but meh. That was right after OWAW too.
And a bunch of scuffles, like the one where he backhand punches her that ends in her getting stabbed by someone else after he plays possum, and Sacrifice when she ropes his neck when he tries to kill Batman, but he escapes and ****s with everyone else.

Those are the fights that spring to mind anyway.

abhilegend

There is this

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/Superman_51jpg_FinalCrisis_6_p34.jpg

Q99

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
.In Sacrifice he kicked the shit out of her, but lost.

I will note that even before she won with the tiara throw, she laid some heavy damage to him too- I mean, how often do you see Superman limping and holding his ribs during a battle?

They kicked the shit out of each other.

Yea, the Ten Circle, with the vampire 'Crucifier'. Who even comments on the two being evenly matched.

Though I forgive you if your mind blocked any of that out.

WW has two wins against Superman in fights where he was really trying to hurt her.

But she really shouldn't win.

Think about it, why not? I mean, aside from their direct fights, she has foes who do just fine against Superman too. She fights gods who are stronger than him. Cheetah's taken out Superman. Circe I think has too. Hercules has gone up against Superman and done will enough. She beat old-school Sinestro.

She has a lot of fights against very powerful people, she's got the HtH skill edge (which helps reduce his strength edge), and she's got the magic edge, which traditionally helps CM a lot, only hers is better because it's not just magically charged punches, it's hax artifacts she's good with. The purpose of hax artifacts is to provide hax wins, after all.

To me it makes perfect sense that they're a good fight where he's got the stat edge but she's got some threats that can toss results back in the air.

Branlor Swift

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, the Ten Circle, with the vampire 'Crucifier'. Who even comments on the two being evenly matched.

Though I forgive you if your mind blocked any of that out. I realize. I said Superman played possum after he backhand punched her. Which indicated a battle. Usually people just post the backhand punch and think that's that.

Though it would have been funny if he wouldn't have hit her and instead just looked like he got KO'ed...

But anyway, I understand she and her based characters have done well against him (though there's always Bizarro). But he's literally snapped her limbs easily. And if he isn't being an angry sponge, he should be able to avoid the "plot devices", though not saying he won't get hit, just that he should be able to avoid the things that led to his downfall before, like he's avoided the lasso before. And if she can't land those, she shouldn't beat him at all, though it'd be a fight until she goes to comaville.
There really shouldn't be a time he gets caught in the lasso unless he is just uncontrollably pissed.

Mjolnir complicates things, but I'm talking purely about her vs him here.

abhilegend

Originally posted by Q99

I will note that even before she won with the tiara throw, she laid some heavy damage to him too- I mean, how often do you see Superman limping and holding his ribs during a battle? This is obviously false. She attacked his weak points, neck and knees to bring him down while he was breaking her arms with just squeezing hard. Nowhere was he limping or anything like that.

Phil Jiminez explained it was due to his magic weakness. Never happened. You mean a clone sinestro who nearly killed her and was only beaten by hercules' sucker attack?

laughing out loud

Her durability is shitty to last any amount of time against him.

Or that you're just using random showings to elevate her standing.

abhilegend

How it would go down.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/15753305_BSWWTrinity-002-33.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/15753306_BSWWTrinity-002-34.jpg

laughing out loud

abhilegend

Also what happens when Wonder Woman gets mindcontrolled? Superman just scoops her like a petulant child and flies her away.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/16705331_jla-v2-annual-06-40hacsa.jpg

Rage.Of.Olympus

Superman after OWAW was more effective and powerful but with the power of Thor, Wonder Woman is not longer at a power disadvantage and her offensive and defense capabilities improve immensely. Throw in her other gear and superior skill and she gets my vote.

Igniz

Everytime hammers are involved, someone is grumpy at the moment big grin

h1a8

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Superman after OWAW was more effective and powerful but with the power of Thor, Wonder Woman is not longer at a power disadvantage and her offensive and defense capabilities improve immensely. Throw in her other gear and superior skill and she gets my vote. Owaw Superman used his speed effectively and also multitasked. The only way she has a chance is through speed. Imo, the hammer would slow her down. It's attacks are slower than her normal attacks by a significant degree. Her character is to melee and not stay ranged. Superman can instant freeze her while blitzing.

Rage.Of.Olympus

Originally posted by h1a8
Owaw Superman used his speed effectively and also multitasked. The only way she has a chance is through speed. Imo, the hammer would slow her down. It's attacks are slower than her normal attacks by a significant degree. Her character is to melee and not stay ranged. Superman can instant freeze her while blitzing.

And it really wasn't worth much outside of cool visuals. At the end of OWAW when he was at his most effective fighting besides Doomsday, he resorted to the usual brute force method. Hell, even earlier against the probes, when he got truly pissed and started beating them, it was after speed blitzing didn't do shit.

Throw in the fact that Wonder Woman can competitively match Superman's speed in hand to hand fighting, and it's not doing him any good.

Lol, why would the hammer slow her down by a significant degree? What the f*ck are you even basing that shit on when Captain America can swing around Mjolnir without any effort?

And she can drop lightning bolts in his face as she blocks his freeze breath. We can all think of fun, little, hypothetical scenarios.

h1a8

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
And it really wasn't worth much outside of cool visuals. At the end of OWAW when he was at his most effective fighting besides Doomsday, he resorted to the usual brute force method. Hell, even earlier against the probes, when he got truly pissed and started beating them, it was after speed blitzing didn't do shit.

Throw in the fact that Wonder Woman can competitively match Superman's speed in hand to hand fighting, and it's not doing him any good.

Lol, why would the hammer slow her down by a significant degree? What the f*ck are you even basing that shit on when Captain America can swing around Mjolnir without any effort?

And she can drop lightning bolts in his face as she blocks his freeze breath. We can all think of fun, little, hypothetical scenarios.

A jab or kick is a lot quicker than a hammer swing and definitely a slam.
But mostly, Mjolnir abilities (like lightning) doesn't operate in nanoseconds like a quick melee hand attack could.
I'm not saying she wouldn't be fast with Mjolnir. I'm saying she would be FASTER without it.

How would she block freeze breath? It's not an energy attack. Superman would freeze both her and the hammer for a small moment. Lastly, I never known Mjolnir to emit lightning bolts (or any energy) while blocking.

quanchi112

Yeah, with the hammer she wins 10/10.

carver9

H1 doeant know what he is talking about...like usual.

h1a8

Originally posted by carver9
H1 doeant know what he is talking about...like usual.

Then rebut my statements and stop trolling with these comments.
The hammer would make her slower than usual. Superman would ace her easier with his speed and multitasking ability.

Rage.Of.Olympus

Originally posted by h1a8
A jab or kick is a lot quicker than a hammer swing and definitely a slam.
But mostly, Mjolnir abilities (like lightning) doesn't operate in nanoseconds like a quick melee hand attack could.
I'm not saying she wouldn't be fast with Mjolnir. I'm saying she would be FASTER without it.

How would she block freeze breath? It's not an energy attack. Superman would freeze both her and the hammer for a small moment. Lastly, I never known Mjolnir to emit lightning bolts (or any energy) while blocking.

Having Mjolnir does not prevent her from kicking. And a hammer swing might be slower then a jab but it will be far more effective. Wonder Woman having competitive combat speed makes it irrelevant however.

What? If Wonder Woman wants to zap Superman with lightning, he can attempt to dodge but she also has a chance to land a hit. I'm not sure what this nonsense about Mjolnir abilities is. The hammer's powers have always been just as fast as the scene or comic needs.

With Mjolnir's defensive abilities? The hammer has a number of options available. Fyi, Mjolnir does not only block energy. I said drop lightning bolts, i.e. summon them. Not blast him with the hammer.

h1a8

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Having Mjolnir does not prevent her from kicking. And a hammer swing might be slower then a jab but it will be far more effective. Wonder Woman having competitive combat speed makes it irrelevant however.

What? If Wonder Woman wants to zap Superman with lightning, he can attempt to dodge but she also has a chance to land a hit. I'm not sure what this nonsense about Mjolnir abilities is. The hammer's powers have always been just as fast as the scene or comic needs.

With Mjolnir's defensive abilities? The hammer has a number of options available. Fyi, Mjolnir does not only block energy. I said drop lightning bolts, i.e. summon them. Not blast him with the hammer.

True, she can kick. Didn't think of that.

Slower swings = disaster.

I never seen Thor use a Mjolnir ability (like lightning) faster than a second. On average he summons the ability within a second or two.

Mjolnir can't block cold, it can block bullets, projectiles and energy though.
I can't see WW dropping bolts while Superman is attacking her. She will be on the defensive. That freeze breath is a crazy cheesy tactic. Without it she has a chance to win.

celeyhyga17

Rage.Of.Olympus

Originally posted by h1a8
True, she can kick. Didn't think of that.

Slower swings = disaster.

I never seen Thor use a Mjolnir ability (like lightning) faster than a second. On average he summons the ability within a second or two.

Mjolnir can't block cold, it can block bullets, projectiles and energy though.
I can't see WW dropping bolts while Superman is attacking her. She will be on the defensive. That freeze breath is a crazy cheesy tactic. Without it she has a chance to win.

Not really. Especially since at Wonder Woman's strength level, Mjolnir weighs nothing.

I don't know if there's ever been an exact time given but Thor has fought practically every being in Marvel and I cannot recall a single instance where Mjolnir's powers have proven to be too slow to be effective. Even in moments when an opponent blasts Thor from point blank range etc.

If Mjolnir can block fire, why can it not block freeze breath? At this point, it is clear that Mjolnir can manipulate absolutely anything. The hammer has even created legitimate force fields outside of the barriers, whirlwinds, absorption and other defensive techniques.

What is this obsession with freeze breath? We've seen Diana break out of it in moments without Mjolnir. In this fight, she will be far more powerful.

TheGodKiller

Wonder Woman wins.

-Pr-

There are three or four people in this thread that I'm not even going to bother warning anymore. Bannings will come and that's that.

Q99

Originally posted by abhilegend
This is obviously false. She attacked his weak points, neck and knees to bring him down while he was breaking her arms with just squeezing hard. Nowhere was he limping or anything like that.

He broke her wrist... and wrists are more fragile than knees or ribs, if we're talking weak points.

And he came out of a crater clearly heavily favoring one side, holding his chest, and taking long strides.

You're also acting like hitting weak points isn't a legitimate strategy. If she can hit weak points more than he can, and she can, and that's specifically part of her skill set, that counts.

The bending over backwards you do here to not count what happens is pretty funny, you really do a lot of work to twist 'both sides hurt each other visibly' to only count for one side somehow.

Sure, which is why Superman said Cheetah's punches were like 'Captain Marvel's.'

Funny, Diana's also magic.

The clone Sinestro where she pretty casually broke a couple constructs of and still was just trying to negotiate with before he caught her in the last one and then Herc did his thing?

Somehow, I don't think the last construct would've been the finishing blow after she'd just broken through multiple anyway.

Except, y'know, the multiple times she has. Like, I can think of at least four times....

Take a look at For Tomorrow, for example. A scenario where neither is bloodlusted or mind controlled, they slam each other through a mountain side and such... and neither is hurt by it. Tenth Circle, the controlled Superman and WW stalemate. Sacrifice, well covered, both are going at full and both injure each other pretty heavily and then both go on to do other stuff, she takes on a trio of Alpha OMACs (the same level that gave J'onn and other strong heroes trouble) not more than an hour later and beats 'em.

Checkmate ranks her durability at A-1, the same general category as they rate Superman's. She's more vulnerable to cutting obviously, but she can take hits quite well.

'Random showings' seems to include every single time they fight as well as in-characters opinions, from the authors Greg Rucka, John Bryne (writer of Man of Steel), Phil Jimenez, Christopher Moeller, Dwayne McDuffie, and Brian Azzarello, including in headline books under direct editorial oversight, and in Superman books, WW ones, JLA ones, and event ones.

'Non random showings' seems to be from... um... well, there isn't really an example of the two performing like you say he would, despite the commonness of their clashes.

carver9

Originally posted by h1a8
Then rebut my statements and stop trolling with these comments.
The hammer would make her slower than usual. Superman would ace her easier with his speed and multitasking ability.

WW can lift billions of tons and you think a hammer is going to slow down her momentum? Grab a piece of tissue and see if you can throw quick blows while its in your hand. WW swinging Mjlonir will not mess up her movement speed.

Q99

Originally posted by carver9
WW can lift billions of tons and you think a hammer is going to slow down her momentum? Grab a piece of tissue and see if you can throw quick blows while its in your hand. WW swinging Mjlonir will not mess up her movement speed.

Yes. If someone's worthy, it's pretty darn light, a normal human can carry it.

Silent Master

Not according to h1a8, he seems to think that Mjolnir weighs 13,000,000,000,000 trillion tons.

Branlor Swift

Not that it needs to be proven or anything because of who's saying it, but this should disprove that:
http://i41.tinypic.com/a17gap.png

There's also the old Marvel trading cards that said it was 42.3 pounds.

http://i41.tinypic.com/351e7wm.jpg

And last but not least, there's also the part where it's an absolutely stupid ****ing point to begin with

-Pr-

Closing this soon. You guys are unbelievable.

Diana is not going to have any trouble lifting the hammer, and really, it should be enough to let her get the advantage over him.

Also, you guys are dangerously close to me just saying **** it, and banning Sacrifice. Common sense already dictates that it has to be taken with a grain of salt due to Superman being compromised, but no, It's like I'm talking to the ****ing wall over her.

iceman24567

Hasnt Wonder Woman worn full armor before? I doubt a 40 lbs hammer would slow her down erm

abhilegend

Originally posted by Q99
He broke her wrist... and wrists are more fragile than knees or ribs, if we're talking weak points. He broke her wrist by squeezing above her bracers. That's not using weak points, that's just using raw strength to break someone's wrist through indestructible bracers.

Haha, this is just ridiculous. He was just emerging through the crater and there was no mention of ribs breaking or limping like wonder woman mentioned of her wrist breaking twice. You are just speculating by one panel.

Its not much use for her in strength, at one point she punched him and he barely acknowledged it.

Untill the tiara toss, she only made him "slow down" for a moment. He was breaking her wrist and knocking her out like a child.

Jiminez also had a werewolf incapacitate superman. He later explained that superman was weakened by cheetha's magic.

She was brought to life by gods. Cap's body is made by magic and he can even shape-shift by controlling the magic. Wonder Woman can't.

Breaking some random construct means what now? She was entirely helpless and some random policemen came to her rescue.

Of course it was. She wasn't able to free herself while he was choking her out.

Name them.

Where he wasn't even seriously taking the fight while she was determined to stop her? BTW he took the brunt of the attack, she didn't. Weakened superman due to days of deprived sunlight. The only heavy injury superman got was from tiara, not from her attacks. The same writer had superman beat Replikon with the explicit powers of wonder woman, flash, J'onn and rest of JLA fairly casually when he was thinking rationally.

Checkmate also rated Mr. Terrific the smartest being on earth ahead of people like Luthor and such. Suffice to say that I don't take it seriously. Superman has shrugged off attacks that have oneshotted wonder woman. Wonder Woman's durability is nothing compared to superman's. Even Rucka had her nearly killed by a nuclear reactor.

Haha, what? Byrne had her say that she can't win against superman, Jiminez had her say that he would kill her with two "blocked" attacks, Mcduffie flat out said that superman would beat wonder woman, Azzarello had superman bitchslapping her around etc. None of these writers have said that wonder woman can win against superman. You can't even cite writers correctly.

' Like this?

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/LeagueOfOnea.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/LeagueOfOneb.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/LeagueOfOnec.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/LeagueOfOned.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/LeagueOfOnee.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/LeagueOfOnef.jpg

"I can't win against you in combat."

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_Superman_51jpg_FinalCrisis_6_p34.jpg

h1a8

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Not really. Especially since at Wonder Woman's strength level, Mjolnir weighs nothing.

I don't know if there's ever been an exact time given but Thor has fought practically every being in Marvel and I cannot recall a single instance where Mjolnir's powers have proven to be too slow to be effective. Even in moments when an opponent blasts Thor from point blank range etc.

If Mjolnir can block fire, why can it not block freeze breath? At this point, it is clear that Mjolnir can manipulate absolutely anything. The hammer has even created legitimate force fields outside of the barriers, whirlwinds, absorption and other defensive techniques.

What is this obsession with freeze breath? We've seen Diana break out of it in moments without Mjolnir. In this fight, she will be far more powerful.

Ok good point. Mjolnir weighs next to nothing.
But I still don't think it would block being froze. Otherwise Thor would have shown it or at least not got froze a few times. She can get out, but a second or two to Superman is eternity. He would have already gotten free hits.

Mjolnir adds power to Diana's strikes.
But anything exotic isn't instant (in the sense of Superman's time).
Mjolnir can block hv, but so can her bracers.
IMO, I would say it improves her just a little bit. But the multitasking ability combined with that cheap ass freeze breath I think she still goes down.

Epicurus

*bump*
Originally posted by h1a8
I never known Mjolnir to emit lightning bolts (or any energy) .
Profiled.

Pillow Biter

It depends what the OP meant by "OWAW Superman".

At his peak power levels in OWAW, when fully cutting loose, Superman would beat Diana badly, even with the hammer. Hell, he'd kill her even if she had Thor's physical stats stacked on to hers, and the hammer's other powers.

But you see, one of the main points of OWAW was that Superman couldn't access that kind of peak power except in extremis. Even after fighting the Probes with Doomsday, Superman's power levels went down when he fought DS later, IIRC. DS is as evil as you get, but he's still living and Superman has trouble cutting fully loose when it might involve killing. He was willing to kill in OWAW, but that still doesn't mean he can 'get it up' to 110% when a killing might be involved.

Long story short, Superman can win in theory, but you need to concoct a pretty extreme scenario for him to be able to make himself bring that kind of power to bear against Wonder Woman.

p.s. I'm just talking about Superman from the perspective of OWAW. I realize not all writers approached him the same way.

DarkSaint85

WW wins this.

Anyone who says otherwise is wrong, and stupid headed.

NemeBro

Originally posted by h1a8

I never seen Thor use a Mjolnir ability (like lightning) faster than a second. On average he summons the ability within a second or two. Do the comics you read come with time frames over each panel or something?

Q99

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
It depends what the OP meant by "OWAW Superman".

At his peak power levels in OWAW, when fully cutting loose, Superman would beat Diana badly, even with the hammer. Hell, he'd kill her even if she had Thor's physical stats stacked on to hers, and the hammer's other powers.

But you see, one of the main points of OWAW was that Superman couldn't access that kind of peak power except in extremis. Even after fighting the Probes with Doomsday, Superman's power levels went down when he fought DS later, IIRC. DS is as evil as you get, but he's still living and Superman has trouble cutting fully loose when it might involve killing. He was willing to kill in OWAW, but that still doesn't mean he can 'get it up' to 110% when a killing might be involved.

Meh, he pulled a lot of tricks he did during OWAW in Sacrifice, and was even more angry during the latter.

Toss in Mjolnir and she can definitely defend.

OWAW is high-end Superman, but aside from when he's sundipped, not in a 'nother league or something. And Mjolnir is a nice upgrade.

I go WW.

abhilegend

Originally posted by Q99
Meh, he pulled a lot of tricks he did during OWAW in Sacrifice, and was even more angry during the latter.

Toss in Mjolnir and she can definitely defend.

OWAW is high-end Superman, but aside from when he's sundipped, not in a 'nother league or something. And Mjolnir is a nice upgrade.

I go WW.
No, he didn't, also he was irrationally angry. Just some months ago it was stated that Doomsday makes Superman weaker than usual.

http://i.imgur.com/Gt3FIa0.jpg

Combine that to the explanation that to fully unleash, superman needs his mind free and I don't see how anybody can say that Sacrifice Superman=OWAW Superman.

http://i.imgur.com/Dw9DHdY.jpg

Superman was oneshotting beings that shitstomped whole JLA and nearly killed wonder woman. He was another level than wonder woman alright.

I don't care who wins actually, its the rampant lowballing of what happened in OWAW that's laughable.

Pillow Biter

Sacrifice represents how strong Rucka thought an unleashed Superman would get. You can't use it as an example of how powerful OWAW Superman was.

Superman WAS on a whole new level when he cut loose in OWAW.

Q99

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Sacrifice represents how strong Rucka thought an unleashed Superman would get. You can't use it as an example of how powerful OWAW Superman was.

Superman WAS on a whole new level when he cut loose in OWAW.

Yea, a whole new, never-before-seen level.... and Sacrifice happened a few years after OWAW, and in Sacrifice he even did a lot of the same things he did in OWAW, like using heat vision while charging at Superspeed and using that to get into melee and etc..

At the very least, the levels were pretty similar.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, he didn't, also he was irrationally angry. Just some months ago it was stated that Doomsday makes Superman weaker than usual.

Combine that to the explanation that to fully unleash, superman needs his mind free and I don't see how anybody can say that Sacrifice Superman=OWAW Superman.

One, different Superman. Two, Doomsday pretty much defines several of the times he's held back the least. Three, Doomday was present at OWAW, so, y'know, doesn't exactly help as an example.

So yea, you can't see it because you always like you ignore what makes WW strong, no matter how silly it is. Standard transparent Abh bias, so let's move on.

-Pr-

Okay, now I'm making it a ruling, because people obviously can't leave well enough alone.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Great, so I have to clarify this again. I'm going to bookmark this post in future so that I don't have to repeat myself.

Using the punch is fine, as long as you're using it in the proper context.

It (Sacrifice) can be used as an example of how strong he can be with less restraint. It can be used to show that Wonder Woman went up against a high herald that was operating at above average power, and not just survived, but actually held her own at times.

It CAN'T, be used as an example of him operating at his best, or close to it, though. And it's not just because of the mental capacity thing, but that's the easiest way of using it.

DarkSaint85

Ban them alllllll, Pr. Especially that troublemaker, carver. He's the worst offender.

Second on the list is Q99.

Abhi is fine though. He's like my Brahmin from another.....muffin?

abhilegend

carver9

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ban them alllllll, Pr. Especially that troublemaker, carver. He's the worst offender.

Second on the list is Q99.

Abhi is fine though. He's like my Brahmin from another.....muffin?

mad

Pillow Biter

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, a whole new, never-before-seen level.... and Sacrifice happened a few years after OWAW, and in Sacrifice he even did a lot of the same things he did in OWAW, like using heat vision while charging at Superspeed and using that to get into melee and etc..

At the very least, the levels were pretty similar.

Comics don't make logical sense like that. You can't always reconcile the portrayals of different writers with some kind of coherent narrative timeline.

Superman was much more powerful when all-out in OWAW than he was in sacrifice because in OWAW he was one-shotting beings (probes) that before he himself couldn't beat straight-up, and that were taking on whole teams of heroes--including WW.

While Sacrifice doesn't necessarily show how a fight with an all-out Superman and WW would go down (on account of Superman not knowing his opponent), it does give us a good idea of the raw power level of an all-out Superman under Rucka. That Superman is clearly very powerful--more powerful than WW--but doesn't show the kind of overhwhelming raw power that all-out Superman has shown under some other writers. Remember, different writers will have different takes in this.

h1a8

Originally posted by Epicurus
*bump*

Profiled.

Originally posted by h1a8
Lastly, I never known Mjolnir to emit lightning bolts (or any energy) while blocking.
You want to omit the most important part of my post to make me look like a dumbass. Or are you a dumbass for not reading the final part of the post?

h1a8

Superman could win with the freeze breath tactic.
He could freeze her for a second or so and get free hits (knock the hammer away as well).

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by h1a8
Lastly, I never known Mjolnir to emit lightning bolts (or any energy) while blocking.

Wouldn't it be considered as blocking with the lightning? As in, its a common trope - you see it a lot in DBZ, for example.

Character A fires a blast.
Character B also fires a blast.

They meet in the middle, and jostle for superiority. For artistic purposes, how would they depict simultaneously blocking and firing energy blasts?

h1a8

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wouldn't it be considered as blocking with the lightning? As in, its a common trope - you see it a lot in DBZ, for example.

Character A fires a blast.
Character B also fires a blast.

They meet in the middle, and jostle for superiority. For artistic purposes, how would they depict simultaneously blocking and firing energy blasts?

You mean the lightning is used to block? If that's the case then yeah. But Rage's point was that it could block and send beams out to hit the opponent at the same time.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by h1a8
You mean the lightning is used to block? If that's the case then yeah. But Rage's point was that it could block and send beams out to hit the opponent at the same time.

But the way energy is shown in comics, is that it is tangible and has a physical component (Superman's HV being a prime example - it's not just heat).

I just think its pretty impossible to artistically depict something blocking and firing at the same time, especially with the earlier, less realistic comic art style.

Supra

Superman still wins, this does not give her enough power to beat him.

h1a8

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But the way energy is shown in comics, is that it is tangible and has a physical component (Superman's HV being a prime example - it's not just heat).

I just think its pretty impossible to artistically depict something blocking and firing at the same time, especially with the earlier, less realistic comic art style. But this has never happened. Thor and his opponent fired off at the same time having their beams cancel out. Thor blocks or absorbs a beam and sends it back afterwards. But Thor doesn't send beams out while blocking a beam with with the head of Mjolnir.