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1) Straight fight between them. who wins?

2) They can come with their minions. who wins now?

3) They go to each other universes and wreck shit until something stops them. Whoever gets stopped first loses.

Sex

Thanos.

Mistress Death

Nekron shows Mistress Death what a true Avatar of Death is surpose to be like.

By dying

Originally posted by pym-ftw
By dying

I hope you're joking. Mistress Death as yet to do anything that puts her in Nekron's league.

It too a plot device to beat Nekron.

Didn't Death eradicated the cancerverse with a wave of her hand?

I thought the Cancerverse only existed because they managed to kill their Death...

actually they got Immortals because they managed to kill their death

Originally posted by Warlord
Didn't Death eradicated the cancerverse with a wave of her hand?
Nope. Even MAO's didn't die. Nekron however empowered Krona to the point he was crushing the whole universe into a singularity.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
By dying
Nekron can't die. Death can die though.

I always thought Mistress Death was boring lol. Hmm...based on the scope of what they've done, i think i will give this to Nekron. He was literally on the verge of taking over the DC universe.

Originally posted by SquallX
Nekron shows Mistress Death what a true Avatar of Death is surpose to be like.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Nekron can't die. Death can die though.
You know you're right.

I was actually gonna say this would have been more or less a draw but this isn't true.

Not only did it take a plot device, the White Light, to beat Nekron. It wasn't beating him UNTIL it severed his link to the physical universe, Black Hand. Prior to that, Nekron was actually owning the sh|t out of his own "kryptonite"! LOL

The crazy thing about Nekron is that Cancerverse trick shouldn't work against him since he's more than just a Death abstract he's also a Void/Oblivion/Darkness abstract.

Going with Nekron.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Nekron can't die. Death can die though.
When has Miss Death died, (or been killed) canonically speaking?

Originally posted by Mr Master
When has Miss Death died, (or been killed) canonically speaking?

Is there only one Death in Marvel, or are the alternate universes differing Deaths?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Is there only one Death in Marvel, or are the alternate universes differing Deaths?
There's the prime representative Concept of Death (616)
and then there's an infinite # of alternative universal aspects of such.

It's safe to realize if the Prime Concept of Space-Time is infinitely Multiversal,
then the Prime Concept of Death should be the same.

I guess what I'm trying to ask, is if Death dies in one of the alternate universes, does that mean it was only one aspect which died?

^^ Yes. The only time we've seen All Death/s be affected,
was when Beyonder erased the prime Concept. (multiversal representation)

Originally posted by Mr Master
When has Miss Death died, (or been killed) canonically speaking? Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ Yes. The only time we've seen All Death/s be affected,
was when Beyonder erased the prime Concept. (multiversal representation)

You said it yourself.

Originally posted by abhilegend
You said it yourself.
Yes but in Death's defense, nothing in the multiverse was powerful enough to stop the Beyonder from accomplishing that.

So if Beyonder wanted Nekron dead, he'd be dead too.

^^ Right on Zop, he happens to be a special case,
which is why I didn't factor him into Death's history.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yes but in Death's defense, nothing in the multiverse was powerful enough to stop the Beyonder from accomplishing that.

So if Beyonder wanted Nekron dead, he'd be dead too.
He did after the retcon of being a cosmic cube too.
Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ Right on Zop, he happens to be a special case,
which is why I didn't factor him into Death's history.
You asked for a canonically death of Death and provided it for yourself. The fact that it was beyonder doesn't changes the fact that Death died.

Mistress Death, easily. Nekron was living off amps and was easily defeated when the amps ran dry.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Mistress Death, easily. Nekron was living off amps and was easily defeated when the amps ran dry.
Oh you.......

Originally posted by quanchi112
Mistress Death, easily. Nekron was living off amps and was easily defeated when the amps ran dry.

What amps now?

Originally posted by Cogito
What amps now? Am and his crew.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Am and his crew.

Provided the means for Nekron to cross into the living universe, that's all. If the Anti-Monitor were an amp, Nekron would have casually dismissed him.

Originally posted by abhilegend

He did after the retcon of being a cosmic cube too.

You asked for a canonically death of Death and provided it for
yourself. The fact that it was beyonder doesn't changes the fact that
Death died.
I wasn't counting the Beyonder since the cosmic hierarchy including the LT,
couldn't stop him.

The shit twist of retcons may confuse things further,
but that's not my problem, and it's also the reason I didn't wanna go there.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I wasn't counting the Beyonder since the cosmic hierarchy including the LT,
couldn't stop him.

The shit twist of retcons may confuse things further,
but that's not my problem, and it's also the reason I didn't wanna go there.
The fact that beyonder was so powerful doesn't mean anything to the fact that Death actually died. Also there is no complexities about this feat, Death died by the hand of a cube being who was later beaten by Molecule man. There is no such thing as Pre-retcon beyonder as far as marvel canon is concerned, that's a pure battle board term.

Death's 2006 OHOTMU bio specifically references the Beyonder erasing her:
http://i.imgur.com/vHiRL5t.jpg
So as far as Marvel canon is concerned, a cube-level being evidently has the power to erase Death.

However, her bio also neuters/retcons the feat from multiversal to universal, so there's that.

^ not necessarily, considering that in pre retcon's beyonder's bio, it says that he killed death from "the universe" as well:

http://i.imgur.com/sjfp08B.jpg?1

when we know that on panel, it was stated that he killed death from the multiverse.

It may simply mean that he killed death from the "many layered" universe, which is the multiverse

Could be. Either way, my only point is that Marvel still canonically recognizes Death being erased by the Beyonder. This means they also acknowledge the fact that half of a cube being has sufficient power to end her.

Originally posted by Galan007
Could be. Either way, my only point is that Marvel still canonically recognizes Death being erased by the Beyonder. This means they also acknowledge the fact that half of a cube being has sufficient power to end her.
Worse than that, it means that the ENTIRE Cosmic Hierarchy which included the LT, was powerless to stop him.

Just for giggles, did you know this event was referenced ON PANEL after the Beyonder retcon in an issue of Quasar? So it's confirmed beyond all doubt.

Originally posted by zopzop
Worse than that, it means that the ENTIRE Cosmic Hierarchy which included the LT, was powerless to stop him.

Just for giggles, did you know this event was referenced ON PANEL after the Beyonder retcon in an issue of Quasar? So it's confirmed beyond all doubt. To be fair, it was revealed/retconned afterward that the Celestials had projected an illusion into Beyonder's mind which made him *think* he was more powerful than them. For sanity's sake, I'll go ahead and assume the other higher-end cosmics did something similar. ermm

Death being erased, however, is still 100% canon.

Which doesn't make sense friend. (not your fault)

Even if Death was universal, a half-cube being shouldn't be able to do that.

Imo, it's either the Bio overlooks Beyonder's limitations,
because in a couple of bios including Eternity's bio
Beyonder's the poster child as a reference to what can threaten Eternity itself.

Or, Beyonder is a special case, and is being considered an all powerful being in bios,
which doesn't fall to far away from 2010 depictions of his power remaking All Creation,
3 times in the hands of 3 individuals, in one nano second no less.

Originally posted by Galan007
To be fair, it was revealed/retconned afterward that the Celestials had projected an illusion into Beyonder's mind which made him *think* he was more powerful than them. For sanity's sake, I'll go ahead and assume the other higher-end cosmics did something similar.

Beyonder's Master edition 1993 bio, acknowledges that the celestials put beyonder under an illusion but at the same time, confirms that he killed death, so that doesn't work either

http://i.imgur.com/WfdxqAf.jpg?1

So what this bio is saying: Celestials > Beyonder > MU combined including LT.

Originally posted by operator616
Beyonder's Master edition 1993 bio, acknowledges that the celestials put beyonder under an illusion but at the same time, confirms that he killed death, so that doesn't work either

http://i.imgur.com/WfdxqAf.jpg?1

So what this bio is saying: Celestials > Beyonder > MU combined including LT.

And a Celestial was killed by an Asgardian-enchanted axe, so:

Asgardians > Celestials > Beyonder > MU combined including LT.

Originally posted by operator616
Beyonder's Master edition 1993 bio, acknowledges that the celestials put beyonder under an illusion but at the same time, confirms that he killed death, so that doesn't work either

http://i.imgur.com/WfdxqAf.jpg?1

So what this bio is saying: Celestials > Beyonder > MU combined including LT. No, that excerpt says: Celestials>Beyonder>Death. It gives no info regarding where the other members of the cosmic hierarchy fit into the equation. However, we can assume that anyone more powerful than a Celestial(ie. LT) would be more powerful than Beyonder and Death by proxy.

However, this notion opens the shit-storm even more. Per this line of thinking, Franklin Richards(who possessed power =/> Celestials) would be capable of erasing Death under the right circumstances.

^^ The bios are nutty on this one.
Originally posted by operator616

Beyonder's Master edition 1993 bio, acknowledges that the
celestials put beyonder under an illusion but at the same time,
confirms that he killed death, so that doesn't work either

http://i.imgur.com/WfdxqAf.jpg?1

So what this bio is saying: Celestials > Beyonder > MU combined including LT.
... nutty.

Originally posted by Galan007
No, that excerpt says: Celestials>Beyonder>Death. It gives no info regarding where the other members of the cosmic hierarchy fit into the equation. However, we can assume that anyone more powerful than a Celestial(ie. LT) would be more powerful than Beyonder and Death by proxy.

However, this notion opens the shit-storm even more. Per this line of thinking, Franklin Richards(who possessed power =/> Celestials) would be capable of erasing Death under the right circumstances.

It was actually shown on panel in Quasar #38, (1992), that's what zop was referring to:

http://i.imgur.com/1mboPff.jpg

so......

Originally posted by operator616
It was actually shown on panel in Quasar #38, (1992), that's what zop was referring to:

http://i.imgur.com/1mboPff.jpg

so...... I knew what scene zop was referring to. It doesn't help us here, however, thanks to its decisive lack of dialogue.

In post-retcon continuity, we know: LT>Celestials>full cube beings>half cube beings=Beyonder>Death. Based on that, anyone =/> a cube being should technically be capable of erasing Death, and anyone < a cube being should technically *not* be capable of erasing Death.

Where the other SW abstracts fit into the equation is entirely dependent on where you believe their power ranks, relative to the others.

Originally posted by Galan007
I knew what scene zop was referring to. It doesn't help us here, however, thanks to its decisive lack of dialogue.
LOL, dude the Watcher is pleading with the Beyonder to hear them.

It's almost word for word accurate to the original SW II scene.

Originally posted by zopzop
LOL, dude the Watcher is pleading with the Beyonder to hear them.

It's almost word for word accurate to the original SW II scene. All the Watcher says is: "Beyonder, we ask of you an audience. Please hear us."

If you believe those simplistic lines imply that post-retcon Beyonder was still intended to be>LT, then you're reading into the scene WAAAY more than you should be.



Aside from that, GotG confirmed that LT is very much superior to post-retcon Beyonder, so yeah...

Didn't Death high tailed it out of he universe once Chaos King was on his taking over spree?

@Galan007:

If you want confirmation that the abstracts were intending to destroy the beyonder, here it is (master order/lord chaos, 2007 handbook) which directly references the Quasar issue:

http://i.imgur.com/yeZXEiY.jpg?1

And the history of MU has an indirect reference that the cosmic beings (abstracts) CHALLENGED the beyonder:

http://i.imgur.com/YaRa4q9.jpg?1

Still, i think you're misunderstanding me a bit, my intention isn't to say that post retcon beyonder > LT and the others, in fact, i already stated my opinion regarding this matter on the other thread Im pretty sure thor annual #14, which posts the entire MU cosmic hierarchy, establishes that post retcon Beyonder is below the asbtracts, we also have the MM statement as well as its bio confirmations, among other things, Im just pointing the screw ups.

Originally posted by CortSether
And a Celestial was killed by an Asgardian-enchanted axe, so:

Asgardians > Celestials > Beyonder > MU combined including LT.

You're conveniently forgetting the Universal Entropy Guns.

Asgardians=Reed Richaards>Celestials>/=Alternate IGs and UNs>Beyonder>Rest of Marvel.

Originally posted by Galan007
Death's 2006 OHOTMU bio specifically references the Beyonder erasing her:
http://i.imgur.com/vHiRL5t.jpg
So as far as Marvel canon is concerned, a cube-level being evidently has the power to erase Death.

However, her bio also neuters/retcons the feat from multiversal to universal, so there's that.
I think that is merely a simplified summary of the events that transpired during that era of comics, without taking into account the numerous retcons that surrounded the Beyonder afterwards.

Either that or Death had suffered from the "Worf Effect" considering the number of times she's been owned by less powerful beings in comics before.

Originally posted by operator616
my intention isn't to say that post retcon beyonder > LT and the others Cool, this is all you needed to say.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Either that or Death had suffered from the "Worf Effect" considering the number of times she's been owned by less powerful beings in comics before. I'll go with this.

Originally posted by Galan007

Aside from that,
GotG confirmed that LT is very much superior to post-retcon Beyonder, so yeah...
I think that was an alternate Beyonder.

Also my friends, if we're going to revolve Death and Beyonder's connection via bios,
then we must also accept Eternity's bio of the same year. (2006)

In which it references Eternity using some of Beyonder's power via "Beyondersbane,"
to try and destroy him, he failed, and Owen "defeated" Beyonder. (but we know how)



This was an on panel depiction, so it outright means Eternity < Beyonder.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I think that was an alternate Beyonder. Was it? I didn't realize there was more than one Beyond Realm.

Oh well. srug

^^ edit* ... I could be wrong, but it was 1994, the bios are from 2006 and on.

Beyonder's reference in the LT's bio: (2006)



"When omnipotent Beyonder decided to kill Death, the LT joined to stop him,
although Beyonder succeeded in killing Death" ...

Ok, ok, this imo, tells me, Beyonder was retconned in these bios back to his old self,
and I can't believe I never noticed. lol.

... and these same handbooks do have a reference to what happened in FF annual not to mention that beyonder later got retconned into being a mutant inhuman in 2007, which was confirmed in a 2011 handbook (i already posted a while ago), as well as the 2009 encyclopedia (funny enough, this wasn't mentioned in his personal entry of the encyclopedia but rather the illuminati's page, pg.148)

http://i.imgur.com/P3geQMm.jpg?1

2009 bio > 2006 bio

still, there will always be contradictions, like the scan which i posted from the history of the MU, which is from 2011, so meh.

Or the bios are just recounting what happened in the series...

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Or the bios are just recounting what happened in the series... Bill Nye over here...

KJEqQWgbNV8

Wow.

He's already mastered science, and it would appear that he's mastered dancing as well. Amazing.

Originally posted by Galan007
Wow.

He's already mastered science, and it would appear that he's mastered dancing as well. Amazing.

I think he's actually a cha cha enthusiast in his spare time...

Originally posted by operator616

... and these same handbooks do have a reference to what
happened in FF annual not to mention that beyonder later got
retconned into being a mutant inhuman in 2007, which was
confirmed in a 2011 handbook (i already posted a while ago), as
well as the 2009 encyclopedia (funny enough, this wasn't
mentioned in his personal entry of the encyclopedia but rather
the illuminati's page, pg.148)

http://i.imgur.com/P3geQMm.jpg?1

2009 bio > 2006 bio

still, there will always be contradictions, like the scan which i
posted from the history of the MU, which is from 2011, so meh.
I guess this was aimed at me.

Thing is, that yur handbooks (two, is it?) Don't substantiate
anything concerning Beyonder being an Inhuman Mutant.
I remember yur scan posted a while ago, it said something to
the effect of Beyonder 'claims either.' But this new excerpt yu
posted says absolutely nothing imo. "X convinced the Beyonder was blah, blah."
I don't get anything concrete from that.
Yur 2011 excerpt is more thorough though, but it happens to lean towards me.

On the other hand, the 2006 handbooks coupled with the 2007-2009' sets,
speak directly and refer to Beyonder's historical events without guessing room.

tbh, it's a convoluted mess, cause it seems they're addressing
the Beyonder as if he were in his classic levels, or at-least an
all powerful being. The Illuminati comedy was a wtf, and left everyone like huh ...
but that interview I linked you to in that other thread strongly
suggests Beyonder was toying with them. Why? Not disclosed.

Sol's Anvil > alt. Beyonders as well.

sol's Anvil > 3 mad celestials

and remember that celestials > beyonder > everyone combined.

so it's understadable

Lol, technically: Sol's Anvil>Voltron>amped Galactus>4 Mad Celestials individually>full cube beings>half cube beings=Beyonder>Death/ALL.

g007-psyduck

Nekron would turn Mistress Death into a cookie baking house wench. She usually needs others to do her bidding while Nekron tends to use a more hands on approach.

--------------------------------------------------

Anyway, lol, at all these conclusions based on handbooks.

--------------------------------------------------


Handbooks will Never alter on panel facts,
and Hickman presented Four different Alternate Beyonders,
and they all followed the Secret Wars scenario,
and they were always from Beyond!

(on panel - 2010)

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/15469303_Alt_B1.jpg

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/15469320_Alt_B2.jpg

---------------------------------------


Oh, and Doom/Infinity Gauntlet "What If" where he took Beyonder's power,
it was a What IF Alternate diverged Reality,
but Beyonder was from Beyond there likewise.

(on panel -2009)

They even use exact illustrations from the original SW1, and the dialogue is verbatim.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/16791757_Beyonder_SAME1.jpg


The story follows the original Secret Wars account without skipping a beat.

Like 616 Doom never actually having been in Secret Wars I, since his original body
was atomized by Terrax back in 1983 (1 Year Before SW1 was published)
Doom's mind/soul was within Norman McArthur's body just like in the original telling.

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16792005_Beyonder_SAME2.jpg


Again ... Same ol' historical Beyonder, only from an alternate reality.

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16792008_Beyonder_SAME3.jpg

++++++++++++++++++


Doom (with ONLY Beyonder's power) had some interesting moments:

He sees into Nine Hundred Ninety Nine Trillion Futures, from the start: (1 future = 1 universe)



He claims to be the most powerful being in This, (alternate) or Any Universe:



He appears to have omnipresence:




That Celestial horde must've been bad ass to stalemate this power for so long.

---------------------------------------


We also have the 2010 Spidey mini which highlights details we never saw in the original SW1,
yet again, the Beyonder is from "Beyond"

---------------------------------------


You'll notice none of these instances even alludes, even indirectly, anything that
correlates Beyonder to Inhuman/Mutants.
Actually, Inhumans did appear in the What If ... getting owned by Doom, that's it.

Originally posted by Galan007
Sol's Anvil > alt. Beyonders as well.
Sol's Anvil just used the power of our sun.

Sol > all

^^ They're just being cute.

Sol's Anvil thingy means little relating to some alternate Beyonder,
since these "Alternates" come in varying levels of power and/or durability.

This "alternate" Beyonder seems to get killed here: (in some retarded reality obviously)



http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16792206_B2.jpghttp://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16792207_B3.jpg

So colt 6 shooter > all

But in all seriousness you see my point friend.

I was being a smarty pants at first, but the Sol's Anvil analogy does hold weight.

I mean, if you believe that Celestials are > 616 Beyonder/cube beings(which was outright stated on panel in F4 Annual #26), then it is only logical to assume Sol's Anvil > 616 Beyonder as well, given that it wrecked the Voltron Celestial, which was much, much more powerful than the group of 4 individual Mad Celestials-- and remember, individual Celestials are preforming multiversal feats these days, which lends further credence to the notion that they are > 616 Beyonder.

Originally posted by Mr Master
... No one ever said Beyonder's Alternates = real Beyonder.

I told ya I saw the first time around, it still says absolutely nothing substantial.

Also, lol at encyclopedias or bios settling anything.

Beyonder lost to Owen, confirmed by On Panel events.
I don't need any outside source to confirm that.
It was also confirmed on panel,
that Owen's power catapulted above Beyonder's (or any Cube being) due to his Humanity.
Evidently, the fraction of Beyonder's energy was suffice to give Owen this destiny.

On Panel ... Beyonder's reality looked just like 616 and was infinite.

On Panel > Bios.

List more? I'm still waiting on a single concrete supportive reference for this silly
idea of Beyonder being an Inhuman/Mutant.
Also, bring up anything your wish,
although again, no one said alternate Beyonders are = to the original.

Beyonder doesn't have to be at classic levels to be All Powerful:


"In that moment I gained the powers ...

I was Everywhere ... and Everything ... and Everyone ...

In that moment, which is this moment. I remade all of creation."

----------------------------------------


"The power I now possess reaches into the Past, the Future, All Time and Space"

On Panel > Bios




yet you're using an alternate version of him (the what if? issue) to show how powerful he is.

Still, way to miss the point: you're saying that marvel has a pre retcon beyonder running around..........which is ridiculous to say the least.

Lol indeed, when the retcon happened on panel, no? The bios and handbooks confirm the retcon.


oh i know that Beyonder losing to Owen happened on panel but apparently, you dismissed post retcon Beyonder being < LT since that happened in 1994, while the handbooks are 2006 and on. So....what im doing here is showing you that not only the secret wars events were never retconned and are referenced in the bios but his post retcon low showings were referenced in the SAME handbooks as well.


Fine, if you want on panel then so be it: On panel....Kubik held beyonder's universe with 1 hand:

http://i.imgur.com/vKbK04H.jpg

--

Master edition handbook: beyonder's energies exploded into his pocket universe:

http://i.imgur.com/IXTcUPn.jpg?1


2007 handbook: Pocket universes are LIMITED in spatial size:

http://i.imgur.com/X19ZJ5x.jpg?1

infinite, huh? sure, sure.


the beyonder retcon happened on panel, if you don't acknowledge the bios then acknowledge the on panel evidence. And im still waiting for that interview, y'know. Something tells me it doesn't exist.


The spiderman and secret wars mini was written by Jim Shooter, it's not a surprise really, he had him described as being literally God in an interview, after all.

Now let us put Shooter aside, and see how Beyonder was portrayed. Let's take Thor annual #14, for instance:

http://i.imgur.com/i7yuWCj.jpg?1

it says that he isn't even a galaxy buster (which is why it tells us that this is an illusion, though the galaxy busting feat was directly referenced in the marvel legacies handbook, in battleworld's own page, no less), goes on and compare him to odin, and clearly says that his power is not the greatest in the cosmos.

Originally posted by Mr Master
--------------------------------------------------

Anyway, lol, at all these conclusions based on handbooks.

--------------------------------------------------


Handbooks will Never alter on panel facts,
and Hickman presented Four different Alternate Beyonders,
and they all followed the Secret Wars scenario,
and they were always from Beyond!

(on panel - 2010)


---------------------------------------


Oh, and Doom/Infinity Gauntlet "What If" where he took Beyonder's power,
it was a What IF Alternate diverged Reality,
but Beyonder was from Beyond there likewise.

(on panel -2009)

They even use exact illustrations from the original SW1, and the dialogue is verbatim.


The story follows the original Secret Wars account without skipping a beat.

Like 616 Doom never actually having been in Secret Wars I, since his original body
was atomized by Terrax back in 1983 (1 Year Before SW1 was published)
Doom's mind/soul was within Norman McArthur's body just like in the original telling.



Again ... Same ol' historical Beyonder, only from an alternate reality.



++++++++++++++++++


Doom (with ONLY Beyonder's power) had some interesting moments:

He sees into Nine Hundred Ninety Nine Trillion Futures, from the start: (1 future = 1 universe)

He claims to be the most powerful being in This, (alternate) or Any Universe:



He appears to have omnipresence:


That Celestial horde must've been bad ass to stalemate this power for so long.

---------------------------------------


We also have the 2010 Spidey mini which highlights details we never saw in the original SW1,
yet again, the Beyonder is from "Beyond"

---------------------------------------


You'll notice none of these instances even alludes, even indirectly, anything that
correlates Beyonder to Inhuman/Mutants.
Actually, Inhumans did appear in the What If ... getting owned by Doom, that's it.

....didn't you just say that beyonder was returned into his old-self because of the handbooks? yet you laugh at them when they don't suit you?

Funny you should post those scans, when it took doom many years to battle the celestials, when in Beyonder's case it took a couple of panels.

Originally posted by Galan007
I was being a smarty pants at first, but the Sol's Anvil analogy does hold weight.

I mean, if you believe that Celestials are > 616 Beyonder/cube
beings(which was outright stated on panel in F4 Annual #26), then it is
only logical to assume Sol's Anvil > 616 Beyonder as well, given that
it wrecked the Voltron Celestial, which was much, much more
powerful than the group of 4 individual Mad Celestials-- and
remember, individual Celestials are preforming multiversal feats these
days, which lends further credence to the notion that they are > 616
Beyonder.
Imo, Kaminski's point of view in that book 20 ago doesn't hold weight anymore,
and never really did, except withIN the confines of that solitary issue.

Interesting thing is Galan,
the very next year (1994) the same Writer had Owen and beyonder participating in a trans-multiversal feat as you well know.
He also has Beyonder state: that in all the myriad MultiverseS only his power exceeds Owen's:



Then Kaminski tells us via Owen, that his power has increased dramatically
after he released his limitations:



---------------------------------------------

That's the same Writer making characters claim something different
one year later.

There's no reason for me to ever think Cube beings are/were below Celestials
before or after FFA#26.

Kubik and Cosmos were shaking in their aesthetically pleasing boots when a Celestial was about to render his judgment upon them.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Interesting thing is Galan,
the very next year (1994) the same Writer had Owen and beyonder participating in a trans-multiversal feat as you well know.
He also has Beyonder state: that in all the myriad MultiverseS only his power exceeds Owen's:

You meant to post this scan, I think:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16792356/0.jpg.html


However, it was later revealed in the same comic(by Owen), that Beyonder is basically an idiot that still has yet to grasp the concept of varying levels of infinite power that exist in Marvel...

Owen: "There are infinities beyond your narrow, limited perception--that your own delusions of grandeur will ever prevent you from fully comprehending!":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16792357/1.jpg.html

This is the same lesson Kubik tried teaching Beyonder(under the guise of Kosmos) a year prior... To no avail, it would seem:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16792358/2.jpg.html

Originally posted by Mr Master
Then Kaminski tells us via Owen, that his power has increased dramatically
after he released his limitations:

This has nothing to do with Beyonder's power, though.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's the same Writer making characters claim something different
one year later.

There's no reason for me to ever think Cube beings are/were below Celestials
before or after FFA#26. As I've shown you above, the same writer, in the same issue, had Owen tell us that Beyonder cannot wrap his head around the concept of transinfinite levels of power. Therefore, Beyonder's claims regarding his self-proclaimed 'omnipotence' are not reliable.


Aside from that, Kubik and Kosmos/Beyonder were terrified of a Celestial's judgement:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16792374/3.jpg.html

Additionally, Kubik outright stated that a Celestial possessed a transinfinite level of power many orders of magnitude beyond his/their own:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16792408/4.jpg.html

Kubik stated that the Celestials could have easily destroyed Kosmos/Beyonder when he confronted them on their Homeworld during SW, but opted not to:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16792409/5.jpg.html

So yeah, I'd say more evidence than not suggests Celestials>cube beings/Beyonder, but w/e.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That Celestial horde must've been bad ass to stalemate this power for so long.
Considering it took him 407 years to defeat like 5 Celestials with the IG and Beyonder's power that he had the entire fight, I'd say they were pretty badarse.

^^ ... He took on them with just Beyonder's power half way through the book though.

Originally posted by operator616

yet you're using an alternate version of him (the what if?
issue) to show how powerful he is.
Actually you brought up "alternate Beyonders" being = to Pre-Retcon levels.
I was simply noting how powerful even a silly Alternate was.

Nice deflection though.
Originally posted by operator616

Still, way to miss the point: you're saying that marvel has a
pre retcon beyonder running around..........which is ridiculous to
say the least.
Lol indeed, when the retcon happened on panel, no? The bios and
handbooks confirm the retcon.
Still, way to miss the point likewise.
I never said there was a pre-retcon Beyonder running around.
In fact,
I clearly just said Beyonder doesn't have to be at classic levels to be all powerful.

LOL indeed, indeed!
Originally posted by operator616

oh i know that Beyonder losing to Owen happened on panel but
apparently, you dismissed post retcon Beyonder being < LT since
that happened in 1994, while the handbooks are 2006 and on.
So....what im doing here is showing you that not only the secret
wars events were never retconned and are referenced in the bios
but his post retcon low showings were referenced in the SAME
handbooks as well.
I never dismissed anything concerning LT > Beyonder.

In fact, I replied to Galan and said " I THINK that's an Alternate"

Pay attention son.

And yur not showing me anything that tells me Beyonder is an Inhuman/Mutant.
Originally posted by operator616

Fine, if you want on panel then so be it: On panel....Kubik held
beyonder's universe with 1 hand:
http://i.imgur.com/vKbK04H.jpg

infinite, huh? sure, sure.
... sure, sure? More like ... What the heck is this supposed to prove?

On Panel,
Doom/FF, travelled through the "Cross Roads of Infinity"
to reach Beyonder's Universe:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/16792451_Beyonder_Universe1.jpg

You do know what the "Cross Roads" are?
It's a major infinite Nexus that leads to the infinite Universes, Not pockets.

Let me know if you need scans.

Anyway, Doom and Co. pass by many Universes to reach
Beyonder's which is at the edge. Here are a few UniverseS depicted:




"Before us lies our final Universe" (Not pocket)

---------------------------------

It's no different in appearance to 616,
heck they thought they entered 616:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/16792454_Beyonders_Universe4.jpg

"Our own Universe" (Not pocket)




"Anybody else feel the Universe blink?" (Not pocket)




"You feel the Universe shift, because the Universe is all me" (Not pocket)

---------------------------------


LOL, even Owen Reece lets it be known that he himself is Infinite!

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/16792457_Beyonders_Universe7.jpg


Also, when Beyonder himself claims he is Infinite, no one says otherwise:


Originally posted by operator616

And im still waiting for that interview, y'know. Something tells
me it doesn't exist.
Don't play yurself, I gave you the link before.

That aside, still looking for any on panel existence of any kind that
substantiates Beyonder being an Inhuman/Mutant.
Originally posted by operator616

The spiderman and secret wars mini was written by Jim
Shooter, it's not a surprise really, he had him described as being
literally God in an interview, after all.

Now let us put Shooter aside,
and see how Beyonder was portrayed. Let's take Thor annual #14, for instance:
http://i.imgur.com/i7yuWCj.jpg?1
it says that he isn't even a galaxy buster (which is why it tells us
that this is an illusion, though the galaxy busting feat was directly
referenced in the marvel legacies handbook, in battleworld's own
page, no less), goes on and compare him to odin, and clearly says
that his power is not the greatest in the cosmos.
Actually Paul Tobin wrote the Spiderman-Secret Wars mini. Nice try.

Jim Shootter had absolutely nothing to do with this re-telling.

So, Shooter's been put aside, and this so-called "portrayal" is laughable.
That's No portrayal, that's Thor (Roy Thomas) talking shit
about what HE thinks concerning these beings.

"Portrayal?" ... Beyonder didn't even appear in that issue or had anything to do with it.

Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ ... He took on them with just Beyonder's power half way through the book though. That would mean he would have left the battle to go acquire the Infinity Gems.

He got the Infinity Gems like 3 months before the fight. Everything in the book happened before the battle, except when he healed the Earth.
The only indication that the Gems were gone was after the battle was over. Which means he burnt the Infinity Gems up, and almost all of Beyonder's power in that fight.

Which means the Celestials were written like absolute forces in that book.

^^ My bad, you're correct ... badarse Celestials.

@Galan, I have a response, but I'm tired troop, we'll continue later.

Shame they can't always be written like that. I blame Gillen tbh. He's behind most of the bad.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I blame Gillen tbh. He's behind most of the bad.
Wait just one minute. Wasn't he the one that wrote the JiM arc that had all the Hell Lords in fear of the wackass Serpent and made Surtur into a potential universe buster?

Originally posted by zopzop
Wait just one minute. Wasn't he the one that wrote the JiM arc that had all the Hell Lords in fear of the wackass Serpent and made Surtur into a potential universe buster? Yes.

But I'm not talking about that, just his Celestial work. The Godkiller arc, Mr Sinister taking Tiamut's head and all the fun that came with that (though he did kind of make up for it with the P5 arc)...

It would have been interesting to see his thoughts on Celestials and the Serpent though considering that.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Yes.

But I'm not talking about that, just his Celestial work. The Godkiller arc, Mr Sinister taking Tiamut's head and all the fun that came with that (though he did kind of make up for it with the P5 arc)...

It would have been interesting to see his thoughts on Celestials and the Serpent though considering that.
OMG, we have a writer that outdoes Hickman in stupidity. Phuck Marvel

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
That would mean he would have left the battle to go acquire the Infinity Gems.

He got the Infinity Gems like 3 months before the fight. Everything in the book happened before the battle, except when he healed the Earth.
The only indication that the Gems were gone was after the battle was over. Which means he burnt the Infinity Gems up, and almost all of Beyonder's power in that fight.

Which means the Celestials were written like absolute forces in that book. That's exactly how Celestials should always be written, imo.

...Probably the best What If ever, btw.

Originally posted by Galan007
That's exactly how Celestials should always be written, imo.

...Probably the best What If ever, btw. Yeah, turns out the guy has never written Doom again. Shame considering he put a tremendous effort into the history of him for that What-If.

A lot of Sonic, and Emma Frost though...

Originally posted by Brockalizer
Nekron would turn Mistress Death into a cookie baking house wench. She usually needs others to do her bidding while Nekron tends to use a more hands on approach.

Until Hal was ordering Nekron around

Originally posted by Igniz
Until Hal was ordering Nekron around

Hal's will is a confirmed plot device

Originally posted by Mr Master


Actually you brought up "alternate Beyonders" being = to Pre-Retcon levels.
I was simply noting how powerful even a silly Alternate was.

Nice deflection though.

Still, way to miss the point likewise.
I never said there was a pre-retcon Beyonder running around.
In fact,
I clearly just said Beyonder doesn't have to be at classic levels to be all powerful.

LOL indeed, indeed!

I never dismissed anything concerning LT > Beyonder.

In fact, I replied to Galan and said " I THINK that's an Alternate"

Pay attention son.

And yur not showing me anything that tells me Beyonder is an Inhuman/Mutant.

... sure, sure? More like ... What the heck is this supposed to prove?

On Panel,
Doom/FF, travelled through the "Cross Roads of Infinity"
to reach Beyonder's Universe:


You do know what the "Cross Roads" are?
It's a major infinite Nexus that leads to the infinite Universes, Not pockets.

Let me know if you need scans.

Anyway, Doom and Co. pass by many Universes to reach
Beyonder's which is at the edge. Here are a few UniverseS depicted:

"Before us lies our final Universe" (Not pocket)

---------------------------------

It's no different in appearance to 616,
heck they thought they entered 616:


"Our own Universe" (Not pocket)



"Anybody else feel the Universe blink?" (Not pocket)



"You feel the Universe shift, because the Universe is all me" (Not pocket)

---------------------------------


LOL, even Owen Reece lets it be known that he himself is Infinite!



Also, when Beyonder himself claims he is Infinite, no one says otherwise:


Don't play yurself, I gave you the link before.

That aside, still looking for any on panel existence of any kind that
substantiates Beyonder being an Inhuman/Mutant.

Actually Paul Tobin wrote the Spiderman-Secret Wars mini. Nice try.

Jim Shootter had absolutely nothing to do with this re-telling.

So, Shooter's been put aside, and this so-called "portrayal" is laughable.
That's No portrayal, that's Thor (Roy Thomas) talking shit
about what HE thinks concerning these beings.

"Portrayal?" ... Beyonder didn't even appear in that issue or had anything to do with it.

what did i deflect, exactly?


you clearly said that Beyonder was retconned to his old-self in the 2006 handbooks, and you never noticed........so yeah. And that's what i responded to.

you're really jumping around with your stances. You say that Beyonder was returned to his classic levels through the handbooks (which means you're saying that beyonder is still > LT), yet now you're apparently not denying that LT > Beyonder. So you'll have to take your pick.


so much.....irrelevant scans. First off, a pocket universe is referred to as simply "universe".

Heroes reborn the return #1/ fantastic four #600. two of franklin's pocket universes are simply referred to as "universe" (not pockets):

http://i.imgur.com/45zFgbJ.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/5IfuRD1.jpg?1

i have many other examples.

concerning your FF 319 irrelevant scans. Beyonder was delusional the whole issue, Owen tells him that the beyonder THINKS he's above LT and eternity when in reality, he's not:

http://i.imgur.com/sZNUrWO.jpg?1

And that's how he acts, as if he's above everyone,
And that's pretty much clear throughout the issue, simplest example was when he claimed that no one can stop him, after which Kubik defeated him rather easily.

The kubik scan was meant to show that his universe is not infinite, like his beyond realm was originally shown to be -- infinitely bigger than the entire mainstream multiverse.

In regards to the crossroads, yes i know what it is, still don't see why it couldn't lead to pocket/smaller universes.


you gave me four different interviews and told me it's in one of them, im not going to search through them; that's your job, i already showed you my evidence, you still haven't. And do you seriously want me to post the new avengers Illuminati vol 2 issue 3 scans? I would gladly post those scans if you acknowledge on panel evidence (which you should) but apparently, your argument is that there isn't a bio or handbooks or anything that references the inhuman mutant on panel retcon, and that was the point of posting the encyclopedia and the handbook. Maybe the encyclopedia and the handbook are a bit ambiguous, but the fact that it does reference the on panel retcon (which was quite clear), should settle it.


It was a mistake, which i fully acknowledge, i wasn't trying anything, it wasn't meant to deceive.
Ok, if you won't take the thor annual example (even though you do choose to believe certain character claims when it suits you, like in Beyonder's case) then how about when Maker was over-powered by Thanos?

http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chronocomic/entries/scans9/NAIll3_BeyonderOrigin.jpg

http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chronocomic/entries/scans9/NAIll3_BeyonderOrigin.jpg

This one?

Originally posted by Cogito
Hal's will is a confirmed plot device Well yeah. He's basically got the will of God:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/16797313_1983738.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chronocomic/entries/scans9/NAIll3_BeyonderOrigin.jpg

http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chronocomic/entries/scans9/NAIll3_BeyonderOrigin.jpg

This one?

yeah, that's Beyonder's latest retcon.

I'll say Nekron for the time being

Originally posted by Galan007
Well yeah. He's basically got the will of God:
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/16797313_1983738.jpg
Man, that's some greg pak level shit right there.

Originally posted by operator616

you clearly said that Beyonder was retconned to his old-self in the 2006
handbooks, and you never noticed........so yeah. And that's what i responded to.
Exactly. Yea? So? ... I never said Beyonder Now, was pre-retcon Beyonder on panel.

That's what a "pre-retcon beyonder running around" would be. (like you said)

Next.
Originally posted by operator616

you're really jumping around with your stances. You say that Beyonder was
returned to his classic levels through the handbooks (which means you're saying
that beyonder is still > LT), yet now you're apparently not denying that LT >
Beyonder. So you'll have to take your pick.
My stance is absolute, and everyone knows what it is concerning Beyonder.

If you can't comprehend the context of my post, just ... ask, but
please refrain from yur sad attempt at trying to make me look
confused, I mean, it's unbecoming.
Originally posted by operator616

so much.....irrelevant scans.

First off, a pocket universe is referred to as simply "universe".

Heroes reborn the return #1/ fantastic four #600.
two of franklin's pocket universes are simply referred to as "universe" (not pockets):

http://i.imgur.com/45zFgbJ.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/5IfuRD1.jpg?1

i have many other examples.
First off, My "irrelevant" scans all pertain (are literally from) the Beyonder book/story.

And I have several disconnected/unrelated example too.

But none of us have a single example of Beyonder's universe
being labeled a "pocket" on panel.

Next.

Well,
I'll go first and post TWO instances where Franklin's "Heroes Reborn" Reality is labeled a Pocket Universe! (on panel)

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/12035342_FR1.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/12035343_FR2.jpg

..ouch, that's gotta hurt after you came at me with this air of scumbag entitlement
calling my posts "irrelevant" yet it is you who ends up posting "irrelevant" scans.

Don't come at me again son until you do your home work properly.

See, my scans there clear up the missing detail in your scans. (supported in the handbooks too btw)

Now try and clear up my "irrelevancy" with on panel proof.
Originally posted by operator616

concerning your FF 319 irrelevant scans. Beyonder was delusional the whole
issue, Owen tells him that the beyonder THINKS he's above LT and eternity when
in reality, he's not:
http://i.imgur.com/sZNUrWO.jpg?1
And that's how he acts, as if he's above everyone,
And that's pretty much clear throughout the issue, simplest example was when he
claimed that no one can stop him, after which Kubik defeated him rather easily.
I don't care how delusional you say he was.
He embodied that entire Universe, and his comment concerning his "infinity" was
After Kubik stomped him.
And again, even Owen Reece lets it be known that he himself is Infinite!

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/16792457_Beyonders_Universe7.jpg

Must've missed that one son.

Also, Beyonder's Universe was reached via the "Cross-Roads of Infinity,"
which is an infinite Nexus that leads to the infinite UniverseS.
A Dimensional portal/Vortex/or Space-Rift is all that's needed to venture into Pockets.
Originally posted by operator616

The kubik scan was meant to show that his universe is not infinite, like his
beyond realm was originally shown to be -- infinitely bigger than the entire
mainstream multiverse.
Meaningless then. Since we all know Beyonder's Infinite Universe was Not at it's
original scale during the retcon issue. We know it was just an infinite universe,
no different than any other infinite universe of the Multiverse.

Kubik's "infinity" was simply greater than Beyonder's at that point, cause B wasn't "whole."

So, Kubik warped an Infinite Universe. Nice.
Originally posted by operator616

In regards to the crossroads, yes i know what it is, still don't see why it couldn't
lead to pocket/smaller universes.
Addressed.

Originally posted by operator616

you gave me four different interviews and told me it's in one of them, im not going
to search through them; that's your job, i already showed you my evidence, you still
haven't. And do you seriously want me to post the new avengers Illuminati vol 2
issue 3 scans? I would gladly post those scans if you acknowledge on panel
evidence (which you should) but apparently, your argument is that there isn't a bio
or handbooks or anything that references the inhuman mutant on panel retcon, and
that was the point of posting the encyclopedia and the handbook. Maybe the
encyclopedia and the handbook are a bit ambiguous, but the fact that it does
reference the on panel retcon (which was quite clear), should settle it.
So nothing of any kind On Panel After Illuminati,
that even suggest (even indirectly) Beyonder is an Inhuman Mutant.

Cool, just wanted to know.

So, the "What If" ... "Hickman's run," and the "Spidey Mini," All published YearS After Illuminati,
all portrayed the Beyonder, (and/or alternates) as the same ol' Beyonder
that came from Beyond, blah, blah, blah. (nothing to do with inhumans/mutants)

Cool, just so they know.
Originally posted by operator616

Ok, if you won't take the thor annual example (even though you do choose to
believe certain character claims when it suits you, like in Beyonder's case)
This is gibberish.

That Thor Annual, is a special writer's splash-page, insignificant to the book it's contained in.
I mean, you do realize that wasn't part of the story yes? Beyonder was NOT active in that book,
neither were any of the others presented. It's Not a showing, it's not even a viable
statement since it wasn't made withIN an actual story.
That wasn't even a back-story (which I would've accepted) like many comics have always had.

On the other hand, of course I'll accept On Panel IN-Story statements over that Thor nonsense.
That aside, Thor's words don't relate to reality, that goes for other comments made there as well.
Originally posted by operator616

then how about when Maker was over-powered by Thanos?
The Maker was insane, it took mortal form, and it's abilities were diminished.

... meh, it was still able to K.O. Thanos one-shot style in their first encounter:






---------------------------------------------------

But, like it's known, the Maker made itself severely vulnerable:



Thanos himself confirmed this:




*** Make no mistake though, Thanos feared the real Beyonder ever coming out of the Maker.
Thanos decided to keep the Maker's body alive to act as a prison,
the only prison able to hold the true Beyonder (his essence/omnipotence) withIN the Maker:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/16799456_Maker7.jpg


Thanos states his recollection of the Beyonder:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/16799457_Maker8.jpg

"Unlimited power ill used. Unlimited Power!"


That's Thanos talking, same guy who became "God" 3 times prior. (CCU/IG/HOTI)

Originally posted by Mr Master
Exactly. Yea? So? ... I never said Beyonder Now, was pre-retcon Beyonder on panel.

That's what a "pre-retcon beyonder running around" would be. (like you said)

Next.

My stance is absolute, and everyone knows what it is concerning Beyonder.

If you can't comprehend the context of my post, just ... ask, but
please refrain from yur sad attempt at trying to make me look
confused, I mean, it's unbecoming.

First off, My "irrelevant" scans all pertain (are literally from) the Beyonder book/story.

And I have several disconnected/unrelated example too.

But none of us have a single example of Beyonder's universe
being labeled a "pocket" on panel.

Next.

Well,
I'll go first and post TWO instances where Franklin's "Heroes Reborn" Reality is labeled a Pocket Universe! (on panel)

..ouch, that's gotta hurt after you came at me with this air of scumbag entitlement
calling my posts "irrelevant" yet it is you who ends up posting "irrelevant" scans.

Don't come at me again son until you do your home work properly.

See, my scans there clear up the missing detail in your scans. (supported in the handbooks too btw)

Now try and clear up my "irrelevancy" with on panel proof.

I don't care how delusional you say he was.
He embodied that entire Universe, and his comment concerning his "infinity" was
After Kubik stomped him.
And again, even Owen Reece lets it be known that he himself is Infinite!

Must've missed that one son.

Also, Beyonder's Universe was reached via the "Cross-Roads of Infinity,"
which is an infinite Nexus that leads to the infinite UniverseS.
A Dimensional portal/Vortex/or Space-Rift is all that's needed to venture into Pockets.

Meaningless then. Since we all know Beyonder's Infinite Universe was Not at it's
original scale during the retcon issue. We know it was just an infinite universe,
no different than any other infinite universe of the Multiverse.

Kubik's "infinity" was simply greater than Beyonder's at that point, cause B wasn't "whole."

So, Kubik warped an Infinite Universe. Nice.

Addressed.

You can stop being hostile now, just because i disagree with you and called your scans for what they truly are, is no reason to get upset and start getting hostile.

Let me ask you then: Do you believe that Beyonder, currently, is at pre reton power-levels?

yeah, everyone knows, yet until a day ago you never noticed that Beyonder was supposedly retconned back into his old-self.

Im not attempting to make you look confused. but anyway, we'll see what happens after you answer my question whether you consider current beyonder at pre retcon power levels or not.

I know from where your scans are (fantastic four #319), but let's face it, they don't prove anything.

That doesn't hurt at all, actually, because either you didn't comprehend my post or you're just.....posting more irrelevant scans.......you do realize that im not denying that what Franklin created was a pocket, right? what i was saying, is that despite being a pocket universe, it was referred to simply as "universe". Which means that even though Beyonder's pocket universe is called "universe" on panel, it doesn't take away from the fact that it is still a pocket universe.

Beyonder declaring that he's infinite was exactly 1 page before Owen explained to him that he's delusional, here are the 2 consecutive scans.

http://i.imgur.com/fr6m2ZS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FsX1GFQ.jpg

........This pretty much tells us that Beyonder's own words should not be taken seriously at all. And that's what The '89 updated handbook in Beyonders' entry tells us: that Beyonder is not the omnipotent being he BELIEVED HIMSELF TO BE:

http://i.imgur.com/LxWL7Lc.jpg?1

So he believed himself to be omnipotent (like Owen said, he thought he was > LT and Eternity), in other words, he was delusional until Owen explained to him his true origins. All your scans take place before that moment.

The Owen statement is a hyperbole, simply. Because:

I already provided evidence that it was a pocket reality, and there's more

2011 History of the marvel universe: Beyonder's powers returned to his POCKET REALM (see the last part, sometimes i have problems editing certain scans):

http://i.imgur.com/2D80HCc.jpg

^^ d'you see how - despite being initially called "pocket realm" - it was later referred to as "universe"?

Maker's bio - 2005: a REALM which he acted as god.

http://i.imgur.com/Jp8EqUr.jpg?1

that, and along with the master edition handbook, which i already posted says that it's a pocket universe

http://i.imgur.com/IXTcUPn.jpg?1

Keep ignoring the evidence, though


Yes, Kubik's power was "infinite", and since he was >>> Beyonder at that point, this proves that Beyonder's universe (which he embodied) was NOT infinite. If Kubik had "trans-infinite" power, then id understand. However, that was not the case.

Originally posted by Mr Master
So nothing of any kind On Panel After Illuminati,
that even suggest (even indirectly) Beyonder is an Inhuman Mutant.

Cool, just wanted to know.

So, the "What If" ... "Hickman's run," and the "Spidey Mini," All published YearS After Illuminati,
all portrayed the Beyonder, (and/or alternates) as the same ol' Beyonder
that came from Beyond, blah, blah, blah. (nothing to do with inhumans/mutants)

Cool, just so they know.


The Maker was insane, it took mortal form, and it's abilities were diminished.

... meh, it was still able to K.O. Thanos one-shot style in their first encounter:

---------------------------------------------------

But, like it's known, the Maker made itself severely vulnerable:


Thanos himself confirmed this:



*** Make no mistake though, Thanos feared the real Beyonder ever coming out of the Maker.
Thanos decided to keep the Maker's body alive to act as a prison,
the only prison able to hold the true Beyonder (his essence/omnipotence) withIN the Maker:



Thanos states his recollection of the Beyonder:


"Unlimited power ill used. Unlimited Power!"


That's Thanos talking, same guy who became "God" 3 times prior. (CCU/IG/HOTI)

You just said it yourself: the ON PANEL retcon.

It's not my problem that you are disregarding on panel evidence.

Bringing up alternate versions is pointless, Hickman's 4 alternate versions do not tell us the specific origins of those beyonders. The what if....is a secret wars what if so it can be expected of them to follow what it was originally portrayed to be. Which is why doom says (exactly like in the very 1st page of Secret Wars 1 #11) that he is the mightiest being in this or any other universe (which should include 616) and thus what doom is saying, is that this Alt. Beyonder's power is greater than the 616 version. Same thing goes to the spiderman mini, everything Secret Wars-related will still be portrayed as it originally was, because it was never retconned. However, what im arguing here, is that current Beyonder's "average" isn't at pre reton power levels.

Your only hope to convince us, is if you link me to that interview, which you still haven't. Something tells me if it did exist, you would have posted the link by now.


And at that instance, Maker took Thanos by surprise, he wasn't prepared to defend himself. The very next issue, When they confront each other face to face, Thanos clearly over-powers her. And without much trouble, too:

http://i.imgur.com/6t41178.jpg

Maker was "vulnerable" in the sense that she was mortal, meaning she was able to be killed unlike Beyoner in the Kosmos form. Its power was diminished but not by much

After Maker died, nothing was "unleashed on the universe", though.

i know about that "unlimited power" statement, it's also confirmed in the next issue's recap. My point is that current Beyonder is not pre-retcon-level unlimited power.....which should be obvious.

Also that scan, may as well be an outright lie, considering that it doesn't fit in the continuity well. And Thanos never even met the Beyonder.

Originally posted by operator616

You can stop being hostile now, just because i disagree with you and called
your scans for what they truly are, is no reason to get upset and start getting hostile.
Cool,

I'll cease from calling it the way I see it, but I will use the 'respectful' terminology you've been using to describe contents of my posts. ("irrelevant"

"Irrelevant" like some ironic sanctimonious drivel.
Originally posted by operator616

Let me ask you then: Do you believe that Beyonder, currently, is at pre reton power-levels?
Circles forming, so, "irrelevant." I have never said that, and even addressed it more than once.
Originally posted by operator616

yeah, everyone knows,
yet until a day ago you never noticed that Beyonder was supposedly retconned
back into his old-self.
More circles forming, therefore "irrelevant" ...

If you'd been paying attention you would notice I always said in the Bios:

Like Here: (page 2)
Originally posted by Mr Master

Imo, it's either the Bio overlooks Beyonder's limitations,
because in a couple of bios including Eternity's bio
Beyonder's the poster child as a reference to what can threaten Eternity itself.

Or, Beyonder is a special case, and is being considered an all powerful being in bios,

I even said bios are nutty on this one. ((page 2)

Also like Here: (page 3)
Originally posted by Mr Master
I think that was an alternate Beyonder.

Also my friends, if we're going to revolve Death and Beyonder's connection via bios,
then we must also accept Eternity's bio of the same year. (2006)
Or like Here: (page 3)
Originally posted by Mr Master

2006 handbooks coupled with the 2007-2009' sets,
speak directly and refer to Beyonder's historical events without guessing room.

tbh, it's a convoluted mess, cause it seems they're addressing
the Beyonder as if he were in his classic levels, or at-least an
all powerful being.
And by (page 4) I had to get technical with you cause you kept bringing this up:
Originally posted by Mr Master

Beyonder doesn't have to be at classic levels to be All Powerful :

*** In fact, the ONLY reason I entertained all this bio feedback is
because others were subjecting Death to be below a half Cube
being based on her destruction via the bios.
Which is why I was trying to point out how Eternity's and the Living Tribunal's bios ALSO
have Beyonder seemingly above them as it recounts major events where Eternity tried
to attack Beyonder by smooching on some of Beyonder's power,
and how the LT could not stop Beyonder from killing Death.

I was actually trying to highlight the mess here, and why the Death account has to be looked at differently.
(I even suggested how it should be perceived imo)

So ...
Originally posted by operator616

I know from where your scans are (fantastic four #319), but let's face it, they don't prove anything.
"Irrelevant," based on its senselessness.

Yea, my scans from the actual book/story involving Beyonder don't prove anything,
but your scans involving Franklin's powers years later with absolutely no connection to Beyonder whatsoever, prove something.

ka-dur
Originally posted by operator616

That doesn't hurt at all, actually, because either you didn't comprehend my post or
you're just.....posting more irrelevant scans.......you do realize that im not denying
that what Franklin created was a pocket, right? what i was saying, is that despite
being a pocket universe, it was referred to simply as "universe". Which means that
even though Beyonder's pocket universe is called "universe" on panel, it doesn't
take away from the fact that it is still a pocket universe.
"Irrelevant" due to mis-leading info.

You tried to pull out Franklin's reality creations to somehow explain Beyonder's. (true irrelevancy)

Who cares what Franklin did or didn't do,
or what was called what Frank did concerning Beyonder?
Exactly, no one, cause one has Nothing to do with the other.

lol! ... at ... "taking away from the fact" ... lol
Originally posted by operator616

Beyonder declaring that he's infinite was exactly 1 page before Owen explained to
him that he's delusional, here are the 2 consecutive scans.
http://i.imgur.com/fr6m2ZS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FsX1GFQ.jpg
........This pretty much tells us that Beyonder's own words should not be taken
seriously at all. And that's what The '89 updated handbook in Beyonders' entry tells
us: that Beyonder is not the omnipotent being he BELIEVED HIMSELF TO BE:
http://i.imgur.com/LxWL7Lc.jpg?1
So he believed himself to be omnipotent (like Owen said, he thought he was > LT
and Eternity), in other words, he was delusional until Owen explained to him his
true origins. All your scans take place before that moment.
This only tells us that Beyonder was not above Eternity and the LT at this point and time.

No where, anywhere in the book, is it stated that Beyonder's universe was a "pocket"
or of "limited" size.

In fact,
it was reached via the "Cross Roads of Infinity" which leads to the infinite universeS.
In fact,
it was stated to look like our universe (616) ...
it was the context of an actual universe the story through out.

... ahh, this is getting ridiculous already. I think I'm gonna light up to and have fun.
Originally posted by operator616

The Owen statement is a hyperbole, simply. Because:
Well, ... "Because" ...

"Handbooks/Encyclopidias" are the way of the future concerning comic book forum debates.

... below, you funny friend.
Originally posted by operator616

I already provided evidence that it was a pocket reality, and there's more
2011 History of the marvel universe: Beyonder's powers returned to his POCKET
REALM (see the last part, sometimes i have problems editing certain scans):
http://i.imgur.com/2D80HCc.jpg
^^ d'you see how - despite being initially called "pocket realm" - it was later referred to as "universe"?
Maker's bio - 2005: a REALM which he acted as god.
http://i.imgur.com/Jp8EqUr.jpg?1
that, and along with the master edition handbook, which i already posted says that it's a pocket universe
http://i.imgur.com/IXTcUPn.jpg?1

Keep ignoring the evidence, though
Yes, we know you provided (handbooks/encyclopidias) to dismiss On Panel Proof.

Oh, and lol at throwing in the Makers's file and twisting the text into Pocket.

But anyway, seriously: On Panel >>> handbooks/encyclopidias/websites.

When you find that ON PANEL scan that defines Beyonder's INFINITE Universe
as anything other, come back.

Oh, and for the record,
you can be assured I will continue to ignore handbooks over on panel.
Originally posted by Mr Master

Yes, Kubik's power was "infinite", and since he was >>> Beyonder at that point, this
proves that Beyonder's universe (which he embodied) was NOT infinite. If Kubik
had "trans-infinite" power, then id understand. However, that was not the case.
There are levels of infinity.

Originally posted by operator616

You just said it yourself: the ON PANEL retcon.
It's not my problem that you are disregarding on panel evidence.
Bringing up alternate versions is pointless, Hickman's 4 alternate versions do not
tell us the specific origins of those beyonders. The what if....is a secret wars what if
so it can be expected of them to follow what it was originally portrayed to be. Which
is why doom says (exactly like in the very 1st page of Secret Wars 1 #11) that he is
the mightiest being in this or any other universe (which should include 616) and
thus what doom is saying, is that this Alt. Beyonder's power is greater than the 616
version. Same thing goes to the spiderman mini, everything Secret Wars-related
will still be portrayed as it originally was, because it was never retconned.
However, what im arguing here, is that current Beyonder's "average" isn't at pre reton power levels.
Your only hope to convince us, is if you link me to that interview, which you still
haven't. Something tells me if it did exist, you would have posted the link by now.
And at that instance, Maker took Thanos by surprise, he wasn't prepared to defend
himself. The very next issue, When they confront each other face to face, Thanos
clearly over-powers her. And without much trouble, too:
http://i.imgur.com/6t41178.jpg
Maker was "vulnerable" in the sense that she was mortal, meaning she was able to
be killed unlike Beyoner in the Kosmos form. Its power was diminished but not by much
After Maker died, nothing was "unleashed on the universe", though.
i know about that "unlimited power" statement, it's also confirmed in the next issue's
recap. My point is that current Beyonder is not pre-retcon-level unlimited
power.....which should be obvious.
Also that scan, may as well be an outright lie, considering that it doesn't fit in the
continuity well. And Thanos never even met the Beyonder.
Retcon to the retcon, to the retcon, no one knows for sure what the exact story is.

Yet, still no on panel proof that substantiates the Beyonder being an Inhuman/Mutant
except for what happened in that one book, Illuminati.
Now,
it's not like Beyonder's origin as an "Inhuman/Mutant" was illustrated/depicted as an occurrence in Illuminati,
No,
it's "literally based on a suspicious mindflash that Professor X receives,
and Blackbolt is unable to confirm it."
It makes No sense, and the scene is vague/ambiguous to say the least.
Now, is it possible that Beyonder being an Inhuman/Mutant will be cemented as fact?
Sure it's possible,
Bendis has a lot of pull in Marvel and is allowed wiggle room even more than most.
It may be him via a statement or whatever, or another writer following up Bendis comedy.
Then it becomes fact.
But is this a fact Now based on the info thus far?

That's a definite No!

---------------------------------------------------------------


We all know Thanos k.o'd the Maker though that was not the point of the post.
(It was pointless for me too to post that)
Although you brought that up anyway, asking, what happened there when Thanos beat the Maker:
I explained what we've all known for Years: Thanos beat a vulnerable/weakened Maker:



End of story. No need to try and figure out for me the Maker's power level friend.
The Maker's power level obviously fell beneath Thanos' cause he stomped her, simple.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Also,
you can continue without me concerning Beyonder being "pre-retcon levels" or not,
cause you didn't get that from me. So, basically that's "irrelevant" to me,

I never made a clear/final claim like that. (especially not involving anything on panel)


But still, Thanos's recollection of Beyonder is right on point:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12100812_Cube_being_-_all_powerful8.jpg

"In that moment I gained the powers ...

I was Everywhere ... and Everything ... and Everyone ...

In that moment, which is this moment. I remade all of creation."

----------------------------------------

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12100447_Cube_being_-_all_powerful5.jpg

"The power I now possess reaches into the Past, the Future, All Time and Space"

On Panel > Bios

btw. Off-panel accounts happen all the time, you can't dismiss Thanos' statements.

---------------------------------------------------------------


This depiction may be another "irrelevant" illustrated On Panel hyperbole and lie to you,
even though it's actually happening coupled with statements,
since, handbooks are the new thing. But until it's written off somehow, it's our latest depiction,
substantiating something new of the old?
(sure they'll let us know at some point on panel wut the actual facts are)

But anyway, guess I'm one of those who likes a kettle more than a maker. (as in coffee)
(meaning I'm old-school and still believe on panel > bios)
And I use bios, but they have to adhere to on panel truth.

Don't get me wrong, if not Bendis, if another book rides Bendis' idea, I'll accept it.
Although the continuity horror this causes makes it impossible to understand how its allowed.
It's not only a retcon of the Beyonder's origin, it's a retcon of the entire Secret Wars event.
The Illuminati story tells us Beyonder's SW experience all took place on that asteroid,
and everyone involved was a fake copy of the original, and other stupidities.

It doesn't make sense on so many levels.

There's also the Beyonder bowing, and calling Black Bolt his king....

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

There's also the Beyonder bowing, and calling Black Bolt his king....
Beyonder could've been playing around, he was acting like an all powerful kid.
the idea could've been implanted in Xavier and the Beyonder played his role.

Which is probably why Black Bolt doesn't remember this former Inhuman at all:



Even though I just discovered 3 panels that seemingly shows Beyonder
at some point entering the mysts while the Inhuman's watched,
and he looked the same it seems.
He's also smiling devilishly so not sure if its a mental conjuring. (fake memory)

Also, Beyonder was "ordered" by his "king" to leave the universe,
and instead,
Beyonder disobeyed,
came back and went right back to upsetting the natural order of the universe:




Also, Inhuman/Mutant or Cube Being, Bendis had Namor saying:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/16805519_Beyonder_Inhuman4.jpg

"Hate dealing with these all-powerful, all-doing, all-seeing things."

And Reed seems to oblige at the thought:

"As do I."


So, Beyonder, regardless, is supposed to be crazy powerful:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16805550_Beyonder_Inhuman5.jpg

======================================


I had already known how bad this retcon destabilizes continuity,
but I found this page which really breaks it down thoroughly.

(there's more perfect reasoning in the page, I summarized some of it)

http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chronocomic/entries/new_avengers_illuminati_3.shtml

"My take on this, in order to make it as harmless as possible, is to assume
that it takes place during Secret Wars II, after a time when the Beyonder has
removed everyone's memories that he existed (so that Mr. Fantastic and Xavier
can react to seeing him for the first time since Secret Wars I even though by
the time depicted in this issue they had both already encountered him). And all
the stuff with the Beyonder as a mutant Inhuman is just the Beyonder's way of
experimenting with the Illuminati. The scene on the asteroid is just the
Beyonder replaying some scenes that were of particular interest or were
difficult for him to grok or whatever. And just to clean things up, we'll assume
that the Beyonder resets the Illuminati's memories back to whatever they were
prior to this issue. This interpretation pretty much makes this issue pointless,
but i don't really know what else to do with it.

For what it's worth, my Quality Historical Significance ratings are even more
random than usual. As i mentioned, i actually like Cheung's art and the
character interactions in this issue, but that can't possibly make up for such a
weird and poorly thought out attempt at a retcon. And based on my
interpretation of events, any Historical Significance for this issue is essentially
negated.

By design, we don't have to take any of the Beyonder's new origin at face
value; it's based entirely upon a suspicious mindflash that Professor X
receives, and Blackbolt is unable to confirm it."

Originally posted by Mr Master
By design, we don't have to take any of the Beyonder's new origin at face
value; it's based entirely upon a suspicious mindflash that Professor X
receives, and Blackbolt is unable to confirm it."


Psh. Bendis/Gillen/Hickman Marvel's Trinity of Morons.

I like this comment from that page Mr. M :
"This series just looks like what's wrong with modern comics. Some modern writer decides that he didnt like some series that most of us had forgotten about. rather than just not refer to it, he goes out and tries to "fix" it by retconning it out of existence. of course, shoddy research results in the story creating more problems than if they had never bothered to begin with."

Now regarding the whole Beyonder retcons. Bendis' story makes no sense because things and events from SW II were referenced by later writers and they had lasting impact on 'real' characters, Kurse was just one example.

Likewise, Beyonder annihilated a multiversal abstract and the greatest powers in Creation were unable to stop him or undo the damage he did. This was shown on panel, confirmed in Handbooks, and "re-shown" on panel by a different writer at a later date. Post Retcon Beyonder and MM's fight was transmultiversal and Kubik straight up stated thatif MM killed the Beyonder it was cause comsological upheaval.

Other things that weren't retconed from SWII, Owen gathering all the free energy in the MULTIVERSE to reinforce his dome and Beyonder EFFORTLESSLY shattering it. Mephisto's plan to kill the Beyonder that involved all the great powers of the multiverse combining their strength through Beyondersbane manned by Eternity.

On panel, the Beyonder's feats sh|t all over even abstracts he's SUPPOSEDLY inferior to.

I declare zopzop as the definitive loser of this debate. Simply because of how much he sucks, and more so because of how much I hate him.

On a sidenote though, post-retcon Beyonder's universe was definitely a pocket realm.

Death