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Exar Kun, upon acquiring Naga Sadow's infamous Sith amulet, punches through Freedon Nadd's spirit and vanquishes him. This same spirit exerted his Force powers across the galaxy and even attacked Jedi immediately prior to all this. This is known.

But today I had an interesting thought considering Sadow and Kressh's fight for dominance, which was broken up by the spirit of Marka Ragnos. If Ragnos is so weak, why could Sadow simply not obliterate Ragnos with the same amulet? Why would he not take this opportunity to vanquish his immediate predecessor and cement his position as DLotS?

There's a lot of speculation here. It could be because he feared retaliation (although he clearly didn't fear retaliation any other time in the comic; he even fought Kressh outright on the spot for the title in front of everyone who did nothing to stop him).

It also could be because he was afraid to try. But why would this be the case? IF this is the case, THEN it seems likely one of two reasons may be the cause:

1. Sadow, even with his own amulet, is not strong enough to overcome Ragnos' spirit. Even in death, the Dark Lord is too strong. This seems to jive with what we see in JA; multiple planets needing to be completely sapped of Force power to revive him.

2. Sadow, even with his own amulet, is weaker than Kun, who has a raw Force potential bordering on Zonakin levels.

The second above assertions imply that Ragnos' spirit is at least equal to Nadd's, when in reality it seems more likely that his spirit is greater.

Thoughts?

I've thought of this before and then punched myself for overthinking star wars because really, can't we just blame the writers? The only thing they've been consistent about is inconsistency.

Right, we can harp on that all we want, but it doesn't really solve much. Since power levels are a huge part of SWVF/EU business, this topic is still relevant. I'm curious to see what anyone else actually thinks since this either says something implicitly about Kun's power, or it says something about Ragnos'. Both are contenders for top tier Sith/Force users of all time.

Could it not just be that they respected Ragnos and his authority?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Could it not just be that they respected Ragnos and his authority?

But not enough to duel at his funeral? Your point's not impossible, but again we see this same thing make Exar Kun, a runaway padawan, into a Force god. Similar situation, vastly different result. Sadow and Kressh both bow in submission.

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/2429/ragnosrule5sd.jpg

And when he died, his presence was felt across the galaxy:

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/7643/forcetremble0pp.jpg

Illustrious even indicated otherwise:



Or was he just that frighteningly strong that Sadow wouldn't attempt it?

http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Jake-Gyllenhaal-Laughing-In-Donnie-Darko-Gif.gif

You could have at least waited a few more posts before revealing that this thread's sole purpose is to wank Ragnos.

Anyway, Neph is spot-on. The Essential Atlas confirms that reverence for the dead was an integral part of ancient Sith culture.

Kun obviously doesn't share that sentiment and ganks Nadd the second he ceases to be of use.

Which is ironic because Nadd had previously ganked Sadow in the same manner iirc. What goes around comes around I suppose. :V

Yet Kun bows before Ragnos too. Nice argument there.

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/9/95/Exarulicsithlords_b.jpg

This is after he just Falcon punched Nadd into oblivion, so your logic doesn't hold up here. There's absolutely no reason for Kun to bow before anyone.

Also:

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/174/ragnos3bo.jpg

Kressh seems convinced Ragnos is going to destroy Sadow even as a spirit.

Nice try though.

http://i53.tinypic.com/20hsks5.jpg

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Yet Kun bows before Ragnos too.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/doubletake.gif

No, he doesn't.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Nice argument there.

Yes, scoff at arguments grounded in canonical sources.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/9/95/Exarulicsithlords_b.jpg

This would be relevant if only Exar Kun were actually bowing to Ragnos somewhere in the picture.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This is after he just Falcon punched Nadd into oblivion, so your logic doesn't hold up here.

You mean because Kun smoked the guy who manipulated, tortured, and taunted him and not the guy who presided over his dark coronation? What a shocker!

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
There's absolutely no reason for Kun to bow before anyone.

...Which is probably why he doesn't bow to anyone, Ragnos included.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kressh seems convinced Ragnos is going to destroy Sadow even as a spirit.

So what? You don't think reverence for the dead would inculcate some measure of superstition in a universe where people can move things with their mind, survive bodily destruction, and shoot energy beams from their hands?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Nice try though.

I wish I could say the same.

So how many times now has Janus wandered into KMC, fellatio'd the ancient sith for awhile and then wandered off after getting beaten up? hmm

I can't install a .rar extractor on a work computer, so you're welcome to peruse the comics yourself for conclusion on Kun's bowing tendencies. I may respond better when I get home.

http://swcomics.ru/index.php/comics/comru/ore.html

Also, Blax, I thought you stopped trolling when your balls dropped?

You're doing this on a work computer?

http://www.carolineglick.com/e/loser.jpg

Butnoseriously, Kun doesn't bow before Ragnos.

I am shackled to my desk. And I'll double check the comic when I get home. So it could be a few hours, because I may get distracted with tv, chores, or pornvideo games.

Also, I miss the old days when we all had a common enemy.

I don't have balls- I'm a beautiful white woman irl. Surprise.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
But not enough to duel at his funeral?

Hey, they're sith




Mind you, it'd be Kressh+SpiritRagnos.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I am shackled to my desk. And I'll double check the comic when I get home. So it could be a few hours, because I may get distracted with tv, chores, or pornvideo games.

http://demotivationalpost.com/demotivators/12110322050/your-fear-pleases-me-human.jpg

Originally posted by Q99


Hey, they're sith




Mind you, it'd be Kressh+SpiritRagnos.

Kressh sounds more like an overmatched child about to hide behind his older brother, but quite possibly he would sneak attack a belabored Sadow. Point remains that Kressh believes Ragnos' disembodied spirit is enough to contain/overpower Sadow, who, as I've discovered rereading TOTJ comics, has not one but two of those amulets. Kun notes that Ulic's is the mate of his own, and Nadd's knowledge comes from Sadow entirely.

As for bowing before Ragnos, I concede that this is not entirely correct. Neither Ulic nor Kun necessarily bowed. They did, however, accept the burning, scorching marks he put on their heads and took his words without so much as a "screw you, old man". Scans below. The following are in counter clockwise orientation, since I could not easily snip the entire page without compromising the text quality:

Top Left
http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/DLotS1_zps976400aa.jpg

Bottom
http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/DLotS2_zpsfd22007f.jpg

Top Right
http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/DLotS3_zps13de72bf.jpg

Ragnos is noted as being the reigning leader of the Sith spirits immediately prior to this. Also, something else I found which kind of surprised me:

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/TSW1_zps7fe71210.jpg

"forced into a common goal by hypnotic visions"

So Ragnos basically mentally dominated both of them with the presence of his spirit? WTF.

Here's Kun breaking the holocron with his hand, btw:

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/TSW2_zpse7bf1656.jpg

Freezing the entire senate chamber:

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/TSW3_zps306cfd01.jpg

Sadow's ship amplifies the Force power of Aleema to chuck the core of a star. I can't explain how ridiculous this is compared to say, TKing anything in existence. Other than moving the Deathstar around Alderaan, I can't think of anything comparative to such Force tech.

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/TSW4_zps0dff1fb1.jpg

Regarding Neph in another thread, apparently Ossus was evacuated so no one really died there but Ood:

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/TSW5_zps63b5d701.jpg

And lastly, the amount of Force knowledge lost on Ossus is much larger than we thought:

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/TSW6_zpsdceb216d.jpg

^ Just how much did the ancient Jedi know more than say, TOR, KotOR, or PT era Jedi? This explains why they had access to more exotic Force powers such as Sever Force, or the Wall of Light enacted by ten thousand Jedi above Yavin IV. And also why the Jedi pretty much committed genocide on the ancient Sith. While the ancient Sith were very strong, the numerous Jedi with their access to such knowledge is perhaps stronger than we've been giving them credit for as seen here.

The Supernova was caused by a spell which only effects stars, just like many Sith spells from Sith Magic is powerful but limited to only one action. It is not necessarily one's own power, not even an amp. The Book of Sith states that the Corsair amps spells and incantations, while amulets state to be able to amp your own force reserves but limited to one power, such as Kun's Dark side energy blasts. Meaning that the spell that causes supernovas can't effect anything else, otherwise Aleema would have simply destroyed Ossus if she truly had her TK amp'd that much. Also Nadd did all that before the retcon Lucas made regarding about Sith and the afterlife. The Sith were able to become force ghosts like Jedi before the Prequel era and could move anywhere in the galaxy and attack people. Now that has been retconn'd as being only available to Jedi, with the Sith having an alternative known as Essence Transfer that has to make them bind to an item. Nadd's ghost has been explained because it was not just Onderon but the planets in the system it occupies thanks to the Nadd's family casting Sith incantations across those planets and allowing a portal through them of sorts. Ragnos has no explanation other than lol he's Ragnos although the amulets might have allowed him a passageway so to speak to meet Kun and Droma.

I am so sorry, pal. But I have to agree with everyone else here that you're kinda being silly with Marka Ragnos.

I hope you can find it in your heart of hearts to forgive me for the derailing that will ensue now.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
I don't have balls- I'm a beautiful white woman irl. Surprise. I thought you were Nemebro's "blaxican pal" IIRC. You can't call yourself white if you're black and Hispanic. IIRC you said you were a dude.

You're a freakin Dolos. Played like a true Scorpio. You would have made a cunning Sithess.

Originally posted by The Merchant
The Supernova was caused by a spell which only effects stars, just like many Sith spells from Sith Magic is powerful but limited to only one action. It is not necessarily one's own power, not even an amp. The Book of Sith states that the Corsair amps spells and incantations, while amulets state to be able to amp your own force reserves but limited to one power, such as Kun's Dark side energy blasts. Meaning that the spell that causes supernovas can't effect anything else, otherwise Aleema would have simply destroyed Ossus if she truly had her TK amp'd that much. Also Nadd did all that before the retcon Lucas made regarding about Sith and the afterlife. The Sith were able to become force ghosts like Jedi before the Prequel era and could move anywhere in the galaxy and attack people. Now that has been retconn'd as being only available to Jedi, with the Sith having an alternative known as Essence Transfer that has to make them bind to an item. Nadd's ghost has been explained because it was not just Onderon but the planets in the system it occupies thanks to the Nadd's family casting Sith incantations across those planets and allowing a portal through them of sorts. Ragnos has no explanation other than lol he's Ragnos although the amulets might have allowed him a passageway so to speak to meet Kun and Droma.

The Ancient Sith Species were a lot like the Nightsisters. Mother Talzin was able to perform an incantation on Count Dooku that made him susceptible to what she did to his Voodoo doll. Doesn't mean Talzin would have a prayer against Dooku in a direct fight.

That's why it's absurd to state that Kun was approaching Zonakin. Zonakin was JA Luke levels. I would put FoTJ Luke at Dark Empire Luke when supplemented by Lea and Ben's collective Force energies, able to quickly disarm Sidious - putting FoTJ Luke far above Zonakin.

The reason I put Zonakin at the same levels as JA Luke is because the arguments brought up by Darth Power in our debates about Mace Windu Vs Zonakin. An amped Dooku did manage to momentarily get the upper hand on Yoda; and hold his own against Yoda at normal states, so Zonakin's ability to make Dooku look like he was wielding toy instead of a lightsaber implies he was right around Sidious and Yoda's levels. Vader would have been invincible if he'd accepted himself as a killing machine.

Anakin's abilities excelled at exponential rates, at one point even his Sith and Nightsister esque esoteric capabilities were put to the test on Mortis wielding far more energy than Vitiate could. As Sidious' successor, he would have certainly learned Plagueis' ability to cheat death and that would have made his power all the more lethal.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f122/blaxican_templar/whaaattheheck.gif

Eidetic memory, mother****er. Also known as total recollection.

I may forgive, but I never forget.

Originally posted by Dolos
I am so sorry, pal. But I have to agree with everyone else here that you're kinda being silly with Marka Ragnos.


http://memecrunch.com/meme/7F22/haters-gonna-hate/image.png

Originally posted by The Merchant
The Supernova was caused by a spell which only effects stars, just like many Sith spells from Sith Magic is powerful but limited to only one action. It is not necessarily one's own power, not even an amp.

Since when does Sith Magic not draw from ones own power? What does it draw from, the power of christmas miracles?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Since when does Sith Magic not draw from ones own power? What does it draw from, the power of christmas miracles?

The tears of Jedi children.

Sith Magic draws on the call of the Dark Side, which is why Bane says that it's like unleashing the maximum power of the darkside. But just like any spell or incantation it's limited to the use of one ability. Example is the Supernovas one, since if you could do that you wouldn't need to cause supernovas to destroy Ossus like Aleema did. But amulets that are blessed with some sort of spell can serve as an amplifier. The drawbacks of doing this is that your body however would suffer damage since it's kind of like cheating to get to a certain level of power, like what happened to King Ommin, instead of getting used to the power and at least slowing down the consequences of using the Darkside too much. Plagueis is the only one who was able to do the opposite with his Midi-Chlorian manipulation.

If I were a Star Wars character I'd be Stealth Moose' version of Marka Ragnos. Sort of a mysterious wraith who pops up now and then to scare the shit out of the current protagonist or antagonist of the series. Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Luke Skywalker. The point of the character is to remind everyone who's the boss. Hell, might as well go spook the Ones on Mortis out.


Originally posted by The Merchant
Plagueis is the only one who was able to do the opposite with his Midi-Chlorian manipulation. Not so, Vitiate was able to do the opposite with his rituals. It's about the haxx.

If I were Plagueis I would have transferred my essence into Anakin and Force drained the galaxy with a ritual. That's what Marka Ragnos did. You see, his "Sith" body was an immaculate conception of the Force, created by his rituals who he possessed, and he wasn't a spirit, he was what Vitiate was trying to become.

Originally posted by Dolos
If I were a Star Wars character I'd be Stealth Moose' version of Marka Ragnos. Sort of a mysterious wraith who pops up now and then to scare the shit out of the current protagonist or antagonist of the series. Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Luke Skywalker. The point of the character is to remind everyone who's the boss. Hell, might as well go spook the Ones on Mortis out.


Not so, Vitiate was able to do the opposite with his rituals. It's about the haxx.

If I were Plagueis I would have transferred my essence into Anakin and Force drained the galaxy with a ritual. That's what Marka Ragnos did. You see, his "Sith" body was an immaculate conception of the Force, created by his rituals who he possessed, and he wasn't a spirit, he was what Vitiate was trying to become.


ANOTHER ONE HAS JOINED OUR CAUSE! ALL HAIL!

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/ragnossolos.jpg

lol. I wish Ragnos and Sdious talked to each other at least once.

Originally posted by The Merchant
lol. I wish Ragnos and Sdious talked to each other at least once.

I seem to recall Sidious receiving the blessing of the ancient Sith on Korriban at some point in his Sith career. So it's likely they had some dialogue, even if just formal.

Yeah, I wish Dark Empire was released after Tales of the Jedi. The ancient Sith we see would probably have been Marka Ragnos and hopefully guys like Naga Sadow.

It'd be nice if the older canon was perhaps revised and redone. There's some really off-the-wall inconsistencies, introduced by PT era George, and anything Bioware has done. Even if it's mostly cosmetic, it would be nice. KotOR looks like a PT era clone lite, yet it's less than half a century after Exar Kun's reign.

I know right? TOTJ you have the Republic all looking like Medieval times but in space, and then 80 years later boom, it's the original trilogy but with an orange-striped Millenium Falcon. And how before Lucas introduced the whole concept of how to become a force spirit everyone can pretty much become one.

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/849219947691188948/536DAD801DF2E62547016A57B285846582154B4A/

There you go. That's style, my friends.

Sexy as F***.

He looks like a red Ethan Hawke. Maybe I'm just high.

I love the Mr T style silver dinner plate.

You redownloaded the game just go get Ragnos' tree trunks? Interesting.

Originally posted by SJones91109
You redownloaded the game just go get Ragnos' tree trunks? Interesting.

Actually, because they sent out an email that if you didn't log in with your characters, they'd lose their names. I don't just choose stupid names for characters, so it's a vanity thing. The Ragnos hat is just a bonus.

What server r u on Moose?

Ebonhawk, but I have one on Harbinger.

And what level is your character on Harbinger?

About halfway through Taris, I don't recall the level exactly because I didn't play the character for long the other night. Just logged in to everyone to keep them active and secure my names.

I am pleased.