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Which of these is Diana at least 5/10 against? Is she truly in this class of heroes?

Wonder Woman vs,

-Gladiator

- Orion

-Thor

-Silver Surfer

-Captain Marvel/Shazam

-Black Adam

-Martian Manhunter

-Beta Ray Bill

-Hyperion (current)

-Blue Marvel

I've always felt that without her gear, Diana is around Namor's level, which I would say would be about low Herald. With them she ranges from low to mid, and on a very good day high Herald. However giving her high Herald status is a huge push because of guys like Thor, Surfer, and Superman when going all out would beat the hell out of her. Yeah she's about low to mid in my book. J'onn is the only one here that i could see her split with, and that's because he's also not in the high Herald class unless someone's jobbing to him, and neither is Captain Marvel, or Black Adam, from what I've seen Ultra Man do to him recently. So those three would split with her most of the time.

(I'll use Classic Wondy, as I'm more familiar with her)

Martian Manhunter, Beta Ray Bill, any Marvel family member (Lasso + "Say your wizard's name" bumps it from a close fight to clear favor), dunno current Hyperion or Blue Marvel but she could beat a lot of the different Hyperions out there and if Blue is strong but relatively inexperienced that could leave him vulnerable to a lasso. And maybe even Orion (Bracers allow her to block the Astro Force and turn it into a pure melee fight, where her weapons and speed may give an edge despite his strength. Eh, maybe.).

There's no-one on that list she couldn't at least give a really hard fight to.

Originally posted by Q99
(I'll use Classic Wondy, as I'm more familiar with her)

Martian Manhunter, Beta Ray Bill, any Marvel family member (Lasso + "Say your wizard's name" bumps it from a close fight to clear favor), dunno current Hyperion or Blue Marvel but she could beat a lot of the different Hyperions out there and if Blue is strong but relatively inexperienced that could leave him vulnerable to a lasso. And maybe even Orion (Bracers allow her to block the Astro Force and turn it into a pure melee fight, where her weapons and speed may give an edge despite his strength. Eh, maybe.).

There's no-one on that list she couldn't at least give a really hard fight to.


How is that? If Superman went all out on her, he would kill her in several minutes. She even said several times that Superman would be a huge threat to everyone if he were to ever go rogue. Hyperion, Blue marvel, and others of this tier would tear her apart imo. And can definitely generate more power per hit than she could. It's pretty clear where DC places her at, and DCnU is just an extension of that opinion. Just look at what one huge hit from Doomsday did to her. She doesn't belong in the big leagues. Then again neither does Firelord so as to not appear to be picking on her.

I didn't put Superman on the list, as I actually feel he is more like the Hulk is these days. Sometimes he is equal to those on the list, but he can often exceed them.
So in my opinion, just because Diana is second to Superman, doesn't mean she can't be equal to these guys.

Originally posted by Stoic
How is that? If Superman went all out on her, he would kill her in several minutes. She even said several times that Superman would be a huge threat to everyone if he were to ever go rogue. Hyperion, Blue marvel, and others of this tier would tear her apart imo. And can definitely generate more power per hit than she could. It's pretty clear where DC places her at, and DCnU is just an extension of that opinion. Just look at what one huge hit from Doomsday did to her. She doesn't belong in the big leagues. Then again neither does Firelord so as to not appear to be picking on her.

"If Superman went all out on her, he would kill her in several minutes. "

This actually happened in Greg Rucka's "Sacrifice" storyline. Superman was being manipulated by Maxwell Lord and he believed she was Doomsday and had just killed Lois. So, Superman was ENRAGED and BLOOD LUSTED and going absolutely all out on her. The fight ended in a draw after she cut his throat and then snapped Maxwell Lord's neck. After the fight, Superman admitted that she had snapped several of his ribs with a kick.

Before the New 52:

She previously steamrolled Powergirl, another Kryptonian.

She was depicted as equal to and stalemated Captain Marvel and she even had the advantage before the fight was broken up. Again, in Flashpoint, she fights to a draw with Captain Thunder (that universe's Captain Marvel), making it the second occasion where they have been depicted as equals.

She defeated Professor Zoom, who is one of the Flash's most powerful enemies and a top tier speedster.

She defeated Genocide, a villain who steamrolled the combined forces of Green Lantern (John Stewart), Firestorm, Red Tornado, Donna Troy, Wondergirl and Black Canary.

She has deflected Zeus' magical attacks, Nekron's magical attacks and blocked the Godwave (which is the combined magical force of every pantheon).

In the New 52, she demolished Supergirl with minimum effort. Supergirl wasn't even able to react to her movement speed and it took Wonder Woman one good hit to take her down.

She also absolutely embarassed Green Lantern (Hal Jordan), who was barely able to even phase her. She tore threw his constructs like they were cardboard.

So it seems pretty clear that DC places her just a step below Superman and on par with Captain Marvel, far above the likes of even the most powerful Green Lanterns and most Kryptonians outside of Superman. I would say that counts as "big leagues".

Originally posted by Stoic
How is that? If Superman went all out on her, he would kill her in several minutes.

That actually happened, and not only did she not die, but she inflicting significant damage to him and while she was almost taken out at one point, at the part the fight stopped, she held the edge, with his hands holding in a cut throat.

(And before someone says, "He wasn't fighting at his best," yes- he was fighting too aggressively. Normally he'd be more cautious and take more time. But he was fighting smart, he was using his powers at full and in combination- his opening move was literally to try and speedblitz throw her into the sun while blasting heat vision and strangling her. Didn't work.)

Why do so many people go "if this, then there's no way that-!" on stuff that has actually happened? And not just in a side book, but a central event book, meaning top editorial signed off on it.


Superman's got the edge, but it's also blatantly just an edge, she's still a risky foe for him.



Of course. And it's also been said by Batman that if she went rogue, no-one but Superman could stop her.

And Superman names her, not Captain Marvel or the like, as Earth's next line of defense if he falls.




And she's better at getting more hits.

You do realize not all boxing/martial arts champions are of the heavy-hitter variety, right? Some win against heavier hitters via skill, reflexes, and so on.




Yes, considering her record of multiple draws against Superman, a win in Sacrifice, and successfully lasso'ing Doomsdayified Superman (despite another villain stealing her lasso at the start of the fight).





In Doomsday War, Doomsday dropped Martian Manhunter in one hit, then hit Wonder Woman 3 times, after which she was still standing and fighting (DD actually won by tangling her in the lasso).

And this was post-Hunter Prey Doomsday, at his higher strength level, as shown by his one-shotting of J'onn.




Zolomon Zoom, not Professor- who's even faster! Every other time Zoom was taken down was a combined effort, only Diana has a solo win.

She's in their class, certainly, with her gear.

I give the majority to diana vs CM/glads

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
She's in their class, certainly, with her gear.

And the gear cannot be emphasized enough.

Let's go over them-

Lasso. The most famous but, arguably, the least effective in a fight win an equal. Provides a potential win condition even against beings much stronger if they're completely wrapped up. It also blocks telepathy when wrapped, and wrapping a magic user also prevents them from casting (another reason she's qualified as a High Herald- against a high level psychic or magic user, she's much more useful than anyone above). A wrap around, say, an arm or foot isn't as disabling, but still makes someone tell the truth, like the name of a wizard. Can extend to any length, be used as a whip, or a cutting tool, has been used to slice a demon-god's hand off.

Tiara. Magical cutting weapon, it can slice even Superman's skin like butter. Useful in melee or ranged, and has a boomerang function so she'll get it back on a missed toss. Has killed the god phobos.

Bracers. To begin with, they're hard, absolutely unbreakable metal, and she has been known to slam them into people, which hurts. Aside from being unbreakable, if crossed they form a force field, which will stop anything tossed at her- even a full strength Astro Force blast or Omega Effect won't even singe her hair. Thus while her passive defense is lower than some on the list, her active defense can and has blocked even Skyfather level attacks, so slow or clumsy attacks will simply be nullified. Additionally, they have a powerful offense ability, the Lightning of Zeus, which is created in a continual burst around them and she's fried a Professor Ivo Android to ash by just continually running lightning through it for 30 seconds strait. It's kill the magic monstrosity under the island of Themyscira, and hurt the Hawaiian god of war with a quick zap. Needless to say, as a lot of even high-end fighters don't like magic, not fun for them.



Using this equipment, she's not only got a good share of wins against heralds, but trans level beings as well. Not a surprise, really, considering her rogue's gallery contains at least four trans level foes.

And that's without her 'lesser seen' gear, Gauntlets of Atlas, Sword of Hephaestus, Sandals of Hermes, Aegis shield (which, along with the Trident of Poseidon, was the only other thing which broke an Impy Probe).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And that's without her 'lesser seen' gear, Gauntlets of Atlas, Sword of Hephaestus, Sandals of Hermes....

Sea shell of Kane Milohai, which allows travel between dimensions and thus stops BFR.

Full gear Diana is Trans easily.



She also uses her combat armor and axe pretty often (the axe with which she killed Ares, and hurt the False Rao god even when the entire JSA was coming up short). Not as much as her regular gear, but more than the major artifacts you mention.

In New 52, her bracelets can also generate weaponry, in particular a spear which was able to one-shot The First Born, who shrugged off a sustained barrage from Orion without flinching.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Is she truly in this class of heroes?

Certainly.

Originally posted by Noodles71
In New 52, her bracelets can also generate weaponry, in particular a spear which was able to one-shot The First Born, who shrugged off a sustained barrage from Orion without flinching.

Though at the cost of the defensive ability- unlike the old, impenetrable ones, her new ones have already been pierced (by Hades' wielding Eros's guns, which is formidable, but still).

Originally posted by Q99
Though at the cost of the defensive ability- unlike the old, impenetrable ones, her new ones have already been pierced (by Hades' wielding Eros's guns, which is formidable, but still).

That's true, I do tend to view Eros' gun in a different vein as its not supposed to actually hurt someone and the gauntlets were completely unmarked afterwards. I mean, she did block Pandora's bullets, which were able to hurt high level cosmic abstracts.

Originally posted by Q99
Though at the cost of the defensive ability- unlike the old, impenetrable ones, her new ones have already been pierced (by Hades' wielding Eros's guns, which is formidable, but still).

Plus, which one of us can be truly be said to be immune to Eros' bullets???

Originally posted by Mshinu
Certainly.

I mean solidly in this class--at least in the middle, and not the least formidable member.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
I mean solidly in this class--at least in the middle, and not the least formidable member.

Well, multiple people are rating her equal or above several on your list.


And as I mentioned, she's got multiple Trans level regular villains. Heck, against psychic or magic high herald/trans level characters, she's much better equipped than Superman or similar.


"Gives a non-holding-back Superman a brutal, damaging-to-both sides brawl, and better against some types of foes," doesn't exactly make her look bad.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
I mean solidly in this class--at least in the middle, and not the least formidable member.

Well, from the evidence provided, she has been able to hold her own and even end the fight with the advantage against a blood lusted Superman who wasn't holding back. She's stalemated Captain Marvel on two separate occasions (once in an alternate universe, albeit a canon alternate universe) meaning that she is a step below Superman but easily on par with Captain Marvel and therefore Black Adam. So assuming Supes is somewhere near the top of this tier, that would put her solidly in the middle of this tier.

It should also be noted that she's a rather terrible match up for characters that rely on energy projection, considering she's got some of the most ridiculous feats when it comes to deflecting energy and magic based attacks.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
I mean solidly in this class--at least in the middle, and not the least formidable member.

Yup, a solid HH. To me, anyways. Her skills and gear more than make up for any gaps in her stats.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
I mean solidly in this class--at least in the middle, and not the least formidable member.

She is solidly in that class. IMO Sacrifice is a pretty good representation of her abilities.. slightly less strong and less durable than the benchmark for top tiers, but skill, gear, will and other abilities makes up for it and more.

I don't think Superman is in fact the 'benchmark' for top tiers. His portrayals are too variable, and his power too often explicitly dynamic, to be a good benchmark. This is similar to the Hulk in some ways, though Superman's dynamism is less explicit or 'dynamic'.

I also like to think of Diana as high herald, and believe that she is one. I'm happy to see so much support for her here, but I also believe too many of the supporters are ignoring why so many people have trouble seeing her as High Herald.

For one, Sacrifice is overblown. The writer in question admitted his opinion was a minority one. On balance, Diana has clearly been made second to Superman not only in power, but in overall formidability. Meanwhile, other characters at DC are often treated as equals to Superman: Marvel, Orion, etc. Diana almost never is. Furthermore, in many stories where they are treated as equals and foils to Superman, Diana is put a step behind them (Distant Fires, Kingdom Come). And a last point is that if one really feels Superman is no more than another High Herald, on par with Thor and Surfer and Gladiator, but not more powerful, then it is difficult to rank Diana as a full equal to those characters when she has almost always been said to be a step below Superman. These other High Heralds are invariably treated as peers, with writers making it clear that whether one is more powerful than another is in doubt. If Superman is just another high herald like the others on this list, then Diana is the only one on this list who is constantly said to be definitely a step behind another member of this club.

Again, I think Diana does belong in this club. But I cannot pretend there aren't some solid reasons why many people feel she is a half-step (at least) behind everyone else here.

Except we have not just one, but a buncha cases of her drawing Superman or similar. For Tomorrow, for example, has Superman unable to get past her until he uses a distraction (and they can hit each other through a mountain with no real damage- it shows if they *aren't* going all out, Superman's normal blows don't do much to her). Sacrifice is very much in line with other portrayals. And she's been shown as an equal to Captain Marvel as mentioned (a character she's much more versatile than), and she has a lot of uber foes, some of which have beaten Superman or stronger...

You seem to be under a mistaken impression on something: Second to Superman is a good thing. It means other major DC heralds are third.



Except Superman, Thor, and Surfer aren't normally considered in the middle of the High Heralds, they are considered the very best, the top edge.

And that is still mostly talking direct power, and doesn't really address her major edge against magic users, psychics, and the like. She has more general utility than many high heralds.




Half a step puts her in the middle of the high heralds, not the bottom (and 'at least' falls into the problem of being pretty directly contradicted by her status as second-to-Superman. It's more 'half a step, if that much'). And people keep rating her equal or above to a good number of the characters in the original list, so there's an obvious flaw in that statement.

Wonder Woman is a badass. I dont think she can beat everyone here for the Majority but she is not getting stomped in any of these fights. I honestly dont think Superman could take a clean 10/10 over her. I thinknshencould at least take one win.

True, there are solid reasons - but equally, there are good reasons why she is portrayed as being below the big boys.

Her skillset and weaponry. If she was given as much free reign as, say Ares had in Marvel, she'd be oneshotting (or one slicing) enemies left right and centre with those weapons. In Sacrifice, if it had been reversed (so WW was seeing Superman as her deadliest enemy who had just killed her love) she'd have busted her sword out and tried to take his head off. She's a warrior, with warrior skills, and lethal weapons. Not quite the hero archetype.

Current Wonder Woman vs,

-Gladiator, WW 5/10

- Current Orion, 5/10

-Thor, WW 4-5/10

-Silver Surfer, WW 4-5/10

-Captain Marvel/Shazam, WW 5/10

-Black Adam, WW 4-5/10

-Martian Manhunter, WW 4-5/10

-Beta Ray Bill, WW 5/10

-Hyperion (current), WW 5/10

-Blue Marvel WW 5-6/10

Gladiator beats her. WAY more powerful and also deadly.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Gladiator beats her. WAY more powerful and also deadly.

She would do well against Superman who is most likely above Glads.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Gladiator beats her. WAY more powerful and also deadly.

If Wolverine can do this to him....

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/3756/unbenannt2mh.jpg

I generally don't like to use low end one off feats like that though, since WW and Superman have instances of being tagged by Batman and other low end speed characters.

I think power wise and raw movement speed, Gladiator definitely has an edge but in terms of attack speed and skill, Diana evens out. I wouldn't give her more than 5/10 though.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
If Wolverine can do this to him....

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/3756/unbenannt2mh.jpg




Looks good, can you post the whole fight

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Looks good, can you post the whole fight

No, the scan is only there to lowball and misrepresent

Besides, I think it was over pretty soon after that.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No, the scan is only there to lowball and misrepresent

Besides, I think it was over pretty soon after that.

What a pity, still thanks for showing how awesome Wolverine is ^^.

Diana's big problem when it comes to respect has always been related to Superman. As I mentioned, none of these other characters, especially the Marvel ones, get explicitly placed below another one of the characters on this list the way that Wonder Woman gets put second to Superman.
If one feels Diana is getting 5/10s versus most of these, then Superman should be getting 6/10s or more. And frankly, I think that Superman's edge over Diana has historically been more than a 1/10. Though in the new 52, it is hard to say.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
If Wolverine can do this to him....

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/3756/unbenannt2mh.jpg




Come on DS, you are better than that!

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
She would do well against Superman who is most likely above Glads.

There is still a wide gap between SM and WW and you have to compare Gladiator to a non-holding back Superman, whether Superman edges him or not. I agree he does, but not in power per say, just overall competence.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Diana's big problem when it comes to respect has always been related to Superman. As I mentioned, none of these other characters, especially the Marvel ones, get explicitly placed below another one of the characters on this list the way that Wonder Woman gets put second to Superman.
If one feels Diana is getting 5/10s versus most of these, then Superman should be getting 6/10s or more. And frankly, I think that Superman's edge over Diana has historically been more than a 1/10. Though in the new 52, it is hard to say.

I disagree her respect level has been based on her performances against Superman. In fact, I think her showings against Superman has greatly enhanced her reputation. Her respect level is impacted negatively the most first because of her inconsistent portrayals and second because she lacks overall power and EP.

Maybe two sides of the same coin. Superman's slow rise in status on battle boards over the last years has helped Diana. When people were sure that Supes was at best 5/10 vs. Gladiator, no stronger than Thor, etc. then there wasn't much room for Diana to go 5/10 vs. Glads.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Which of these is Diana at least 5/10 against? Is she truly in this class of heroes?

Wonder Woman vs,

-Gladiator

- Orion

-Thor

-Silver Surfer

-Captain Marvel/Shazam

-Black Adam

-Martian Manhunter

-Beta Ray Bill

-Hyperion (current)

-Blue Marvel

I think she's the clear underdog to pretty much everyone here power wise except maybe John who can really job at times. That being said, with her gear and lasso, she might be able to do very well against the more limited characters. Unfortunately, it's been shown that characters with Superman like speed can easily avoid her lasso if they know what to expect. And it's hardly infallible as we've seen over the years. Amusingly, John with his intangibility/shape shifting/telepathy on top of his already other formidable stats, should pretty much be Wonder Woman's worst nightmare in a fight but whatever.

Guys like Orion, Blue Marvel, Thor, Silver Surfer and so on beat her imho. Hyperion isn't as fleshed out but he's a beast, if Diana can score a win against him, I think it's going to be like fighting Superman: In a straight up fight, she'd be torn to pieces.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I think she's the clear underdog to pretty much everyone here power wise except maybe John who can really job at times. That being said, with her gear and lasso, she might be able to do very well against the more limited characters. Unfortunately, it's been shown that characters with Superman like speed can easily avoid her lasso if they know what to expect. And it's hardly infallible as we've seen over the years. Amusingly, John with his intangibility/shape shifting/telepathy on top of his already other formidable stats, should pretty much be Wonder Woman's worst nightmare in a fight but whatever.

Guys like Orion, Blue Marvel, Thor, Silver Surfer and so on beat her imho. Hyperion isn't as fleshed out but he's a beast, if Diana can score a win against him, I think it's going to be like fighting Superman: In a straight up fight, she'd be torn to pieces.

The only possible 5/10 I see is Orion who may fight her in an undisciplined fashion.

Her tiara, not so much! Also, she's gotten Amazo with her lasso via speed (just an arm rather than a full wrap, but still), and got Zoom with the lasso by using other attacks to control his location.

The lasso may not go in one shot, but it still gets applied successfully pretty often. It's a weapon, not a one-shot attack after all, and it can be used tactically in combination with other moves (using a lasso throw to make the enemy dodge into a punch, for example).



In a strait up fight, the *actual* Superman received bruised ribs, a limp from a leg kick, and a cut throat, and while she received a broken wrist, burns, and a minor concussion in exchange, was hardly 'torn to pieces'.

I take it you mean this Hyperion stands noticeably above bloodlusted full-power Superman? Hmmmm?

Because that's the only way some of the results of a few people's calls make sense, which I strongly do not think to be the case.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Which of these is Diana at least 5/10 against? Is she truly in this class of heroes?

Wonder Woman vs,
WW wins over

-Gladiator 6/10

- Orion 9/10

-Thor 10/10

-Silver Surfer 5/10

-Captain Marvel/Shazam 10/10

-Black Adam 10/10

-Martian Manhunter 9/10

-Beta Ray Bill 10/10

-Hyperion (current) ?

-Blue Marvel 10/10

My reasoning is far better fighting skill against some and faster against others and one shot lasso win.

Diana takes the majority against all of them except:

Thor
Silver Surfer
Martian Manhunter (they split)

More often than not I give Thor and Surfer a small edge against Diana.

Personally I think Surfer at his best gets into trans, and any high herald without a specifically excellent match power set (lotsa energy absorption and stuff) is going to be at a disadvantage.

H1a8 what are you smoking?

Originally posted by maxivitopowe
H1a8 what are you smoking?

Whatever it was I think he passed it to Bentley. WW is not top tier, wasn't top tier and was never meant to be top tier.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Whatever it was I think he passed it to Bentley. WW is not top tier, wasn't top tier and was never meant to be top tier.

She's clearly meant to be top tier. Or do you think the multiple times she's gotten draws with Superman or beaten herald or trans foes, was just 'accidentally' written and approved by the editors?


I mean, by both quotes and performance, she's consistently done quite well. Heck, even multiple of her regular villains have dropped Supes.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Which of these is Diana at least 5/10 against? Is she truly in this class of heroes?

Wonder Woman vs,

-Gladiator

- Orion

-Thor

-Silver Surfer

-Captain Marvel/Shazam

-Black Adam

-Martian Manhunter

-Beta Ray Bill

-Hyperion (current)

-Blue Marvel


Taking everyone for a majority.

Her numbers against these guys...

-Gladiator 4.5/10

- Orion 3.5/10

-Thor 3/10

-Silver Surfer 3/10

-Captain Marvel/Shazam 4/10

-Black Adam 3.5/10

-Martian Manhunter 4.5/10

-Beta Ray Bill 4/10

-Hyperion (current) 4/10

-Blue Marvel 4/10

I go 1.5/10 for Surfer.

Originally posted by Bentley
Diana takes the majority against all of them except:

Thor
Silver Surfer
Martian Manhunter (they split)

More often than not I give Thor and Surfer a small edge against Diana. Reminds me of the time Billy beat WW and half of the Justice League at the same time

Originally posted by maxivitopowe
H1a8 what are you smoking? WW defense and ability to counter attack is unparallel. She can beat most heralds one on one for a majority. The lasso is an instant win that single handedly gives her the edge in most forum fights.

Originally posted by h1a8
WW defense and ability to counter attack is unparallel. She can beat most heralds one on one for a majority. The lasso is an instant win that single handedly gives her the edge in most forum fights.

Wonder Woman vs,

-Gladiator-WW 4/10

- Orion-WW 3.5/10

-Thor-WW 3.5/10

-Silver Surfer-WW 3/10

-Captain Marvel/Shazam-WW 4/10

-Black Adam-WW 4/10

-Martian Manhunter-WW 4.5/10

-Beta Ray Bill-WW 3.5/10

-Hyperion (current)-WW 4/10

-Blue Marvel-WW 3.5/10

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Taking everyone for a majority.

Her numbers against these guys...

-Gladiator 4.5/10

- Orion 3.5/10

-Thor 3/10

-Silver Surfer 3/10

-Captain Marvel/Shazam 4/10

-Black Adam 3.5/10

-Martian Manhunter 4.5/10

-Beta Ray Bill 4/10

-Hyperion (current) 4/10

-Blue Marvel 4/10

My thoughts exactly

Wow. Was impressed by the Wonder love here, but now the "harters" are coming in who put her at either the very bottom of High-Herald, or the top of Low Herald.

Originally posted by JayDaDon
My thoughts exactly
You complete me.
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Wow. Was impressed by the Wonder love here, but now the "haters" are coming in who put her at either the very bottom of High-Herald, or the top of Low Herald.
She's mid herald.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17

She's mid herald.

Mid heralds don't have fight records or hax win abilities like she does. The odds you give is at odds with her actual performances against High Heralds like Superman and Captain Marvel, and other characters stated in-universe POVs (Batman rates her above J'onn, Superman rates her number 2, etc.).


And there's still the matter that against someone like Max Lord, Manchester Black, Circe, or Loki, she's much better off than Superman or most high heralds. Against those types of foes, and that's not an uncommon type of foe, she's better off. Her overall level is High Herald.

Originally posted by h1a8
WW defense and ability to counter attack is unparallel. She can beat most heralds one on one for a majority. The lasso is an instant win that single handedly gives her the edge in most forum fights.

You really need to read comics before trying to debate them.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Reminds me of the time Billy beat WW and half of the Justice League at the same time

Reminds me of the time Batman doing the same thing. Or Superman, or Diana herself.

Originally posted by Q99
Mid heralds don't have fight records or hax win abilities like she does. The odds you give is at odds with her actual performances against High Heralds like Superman and Captain Marvel, and other characters stated in-universe POVs (Batman rates her above J'onn, Superman rates her number 2, etc.).


And there's still the matter that against someone like Max Lord, Manchester Black, Circe, or Loki, she's much better off than Superman or most high heralds. Against those types of foes, and that's not an uncommon type of foe, she's better off. Her overall level is High Herald.
Never did say everyone listed would beat her for a majority with ease.

Just because I classify her as a mid herald, does not mean she has no chance of beating high heralds and or foes you've mentioned.

In the end when she gets compared to a popular high herald (Superman) in her respective universe, it's almost always portrayed that she is a notch below.

Tghat logic makes sense, unless Superman is a notch above. Though lately in the New 52, he hasn't seemed to be.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17

In the end when she gets compared to a popular high herald (Superman) in her respective universe, it's almost always portrayed that she is a notch below.

But specifically one slot bellow, I.e. "If I die, I trust you to beat up all my villains for me," lower (from Superman). And, "If she's controlled by villains, only Superman could stop her," (from Batman, said with Martian Manhunter in the room).

One notch below the best DC high herald does not equal mid herald. It equals not as top a High Herald.


Especially when, "Oh no, Superman's on an unstoppable rampage! There's only one person to stop him: Wonder Woman," happened, and was successfully completed.

And aside from her win against Superman in Sacrifice, and her draws against him in places like For Tomorrow, she also beat Zoom, a high herald (who's stronger than Wally West, in turn a high herald!), Circe, who's trans, Genocide, who's trans, Queen of Fables, who's trans-to-skyfather... you get the idea.

Against Doomsday War Doomsday, who could one-shot Martian Manhunter, she could stand up to him fight and take repeated hits.


Then there's other matters, like her being portrayed as equal to Captain Marvel when they meet, even when she doesn't use her lasso hax, shown to be a sure win, demonstrating her versatility edge.

Mid heralds who go against her like Power Girl, Supergirl, Achilles, Cheetah (who's beaten Superman by ambush!) and so on have a strong tendency to be solidly beaten, so it's not like she remotely fits as a peer of mid heralds either. She's closer to Superman than she is to the mid heralds.



You're focusing entirely on the one-notch thing and ignoring what she actually does and what characters actually say. Her feats easily support her as a high herald, and the idea that one-notch means mid herald seems to be just something you've latched onto for some reason.

Originally posted by Q99
But specifically one slot bellow, I.e. "If I die, I trust you to beat up all my villains for me," lower (from Superman). And, "If she's controlled by villains, only Superman could stop her," (from Batman, said with Martian Manhunter in the room).

One notch below the best DC high herald does not equal mid herald. It equals not as top a High Herald.


Especially when, "Oh no, Superman's on an unstoppable rampage! There's only one person to stop him: Wonder Woman," happened, and was successfully completed.

And aside from her win against Superman in Sacrifice, and her draws against him in places like For Tomorrow, she also beat Zoom, a high herald (who's stronger than Wally West, in turn a high herald!), Circe, who's trans, Genocide, who's trans, Queen of Fables, who's trans-to-skyfather... you get the idea.

Against Doomsday War Doomsday, who could one-shot Martian Manhunter, she could stand up to him fight and take repeated hits.


Then there's other matters, like her being portrayed as equal to Captain Marvel when they meet, even when she doesn't use her lasso hax, shown to be a sure win, demonstrating her versatility edge.

Mid heralds who go against her like Power Girl, Supergirl, Achilles, Cheetah (who's beaten Superman by ambush!) and so on have a strong tendency to be solidly beaten, so it's not like she remotely fits as a peer of mid heralds either. She's closer to Superman than she is to the mid heralds.



You're focusing entirely on the one-notch thing and ignoring what she actually does and what characters actually say. Her feats easily support her as a high herald, and the idea that one-notch means mid herald seems to be just something you've latched onto for some reason.
There are not many that belong in the high herald tier imo. Hence the term high herald..
Achilles to you is a mid herald? Dunno bout that. PG looks like one. Btw to me she's closer to her than Supes. Supergirl looks like one too. Cheetah a mid herald..? Hmm. That maybe be an iffy too.

-Gladiator - split

- Orion - she takes 4/10

-Thor - she takes 4/10

-Silver Surfer - she takes 4/10

-Captain Marvel/Shazam - split

-Black Adam - she takes 4/10

-Martian Manhunter - non jobing Jonn should win 6/10

-Beta Ray Bill - she takes 4/10

-Hyperion (current) - she takes 4/10

-Blue Marvel - I need to see more from Adam

DC is complicated. To some extent, Captain Marvel, Black Adam, and Orion (and also Doctor Fate) are not always considered when a character in the DCU talks about the universe of heroes as a whole.
So many feel that when Diana is said to be #2 behind Superman, they aren't really including these guys--who happen to be DC's only other real high heralds on Earth. In a similar vein, many people feel that when Superman is called the most powerful being on Earth, they aren't considering DC's other High Heralds.

Look at them one at a time:

Orion: A god, not a hero, and not on Earth anywhere near as much as Thor

Shazam: Fawcett characters have always had one foot in and one foot out of the mainstream DCU. They don't quite fit. Plus, for all his power and toughness, Billy is a boy and might not be eligible to be Earth's back-up champion.

Black Adam: Similar to Shazam, he's a Fawcett guy. And a villain sometimes. So two reasons to doubt he is being considered in all the #1 and #2 stuff.

Doctor Fate: It is typical for mages to not be considered to be playing in the same sandbox as mundane heroes. Plus, Fate's continuity is messed up. There are frequently long periods where Fate is just a guy in training, and not that effective: early Hector, Strausses, Kent Jr., etc.

Martian Manhunter: Pre-reboot, he was considered. But he was also a bit of a jobber. Post-reboot, he has been this secret, behind the scenes guy. So it could well be that all the New 52 comments about Superman or Diana's ranking do not factor MM in.

Majestic: Just recently included in the DCU, and still barely established. So clearly not included.

I think Diana is High Herald. But playing devil's advocate, there seems to be some evidence that whenever Superman and Diana are said to be the most powerful heroes in the world, the narrative is referring to a 'World' that excludes the other true High Heralds at in the DCU. They are being compared to the Mid and low heralds.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
There are not many that belong in the high herald tier imo. Hence the term high herald..

In the top 1/3rd of herald, yes?

And the fact that Superman considers her number 2 doesn't tell you anything? That she has a rogue's gallery full of trans beings, stalemates high-heralds with regularity?

I suppose you must think Captain Marvel's a mid herald too.




He beat down Eradicator, who in turn is a mid herald, so yes, pretty obviously.



Combat results disagree with you. WW tooled Power Girl. For Tomorrow, Superman was unable to even get past Wonder Woman (and that's by a Superman writer in a Superman book). Sacrifice... well, you know how that turned out.




Cheetah, who beat Superman by ambush, and who, in Superman's own thoughts at the time, 'hits like Captain Marvel'? Caught and ripped up Wally West? Ripped up Firestorm? That Cheetah?







Yea, I think the fact that WW has a better record against Superman than CM, and has multiple physical stalemates with CM, and her lasso has depowered him twice, and the gods give them equal roles as divine champions, and she has more powerful villains than CM all says something about how seriously I take that.

I can see excluding Orion, he really does have other matters, but CM not being included? Pff. Wouldn't matter whether he's in or out, she is at least his equal in direct combat and has more versatility against other foes.





I will mention I'm talking pre-reboot too. Nu52, I don't know how it shakes up.

There's also the (unspoken) sexist view, that she's below these guys because she's female.

I am guilty of this as well. With comics being such a visual medium, when you have 6"4 muscle guys like Clark and Kallark, let alone the Hulk, even the more muscular Alex Ross depictions of Wonder Woman sometimes skews my judgement.

Let alone the cartoons, where all the men are triangles...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
There's also the (unspoken) sexist view, that she's below these guys because she's female.

I am guilty of this as well. With comics being such a visual medium, when you have 6"4 muscle guys like Clark and Kallark, let alone the Hulk, even the more muscular Alex Ross depictions of Wonder Woman sometimes skews my judgement.

Let alone the cartoons, where all the men are triangles...

Yes, I think that does play a role.


Even though we should know intellectually, when it comes to powers, it's really just amount of power that matter. Weapons certainly don't hurt either, 'specially when she's shown to have multiple quick game-enders even against herald level foes.

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, I think that does play a role.


Even though we should know intellectually, when it comes to powers, it's really just amount of power that matter. Weapons certainly don't hurt either, 'specially when she's shown to have multiple quick game-enders even against herald level foes.



But she can't be shown decapitating enemies left right and centre a la Wolverine. She's noble, and an ambassador for peace.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


But she can't be shown decapitating enemies left right and centre a la Wolverine. She's noble, and an ambassador for peace.

Interestingly enough, gods are exempt from this

Her god bodycount is at *least* 3, two of which involves weapons to the head (one tiara decapitation, one vertical axe cleave).

She can be an ambassador for peace.....but even the weakest minds know that when it comes to a fight, it either you or them, half of the guys shes fighting wouldnt hesitate to break her neck given half the chance...an amazonian warrior princess with thousands of years battle experience probably knows shes gonna have to chop some bitches up when it comes to it.

Originally posted by Q99
Interestingly enough, gods are exempt from this

Her god bodycount is at *least* 3, two of which involves weapons to the head (one tiara decapitation, one vertical axe cleave).

I'm adding you to my Justice League of Avengers list of forum members - the go to guys for certain characters. You know way too much of a certain character to be healthy

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
With comics being such a visual medium, when you have 6"4 muscle guys like Clark and Kallark, let alone the Hulk, even the more muscular Alex Ross depictions of Wonder Woman sometimes skews my judgement.

Trust your judgement. It's not sexism at work, it's biology.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Trust your judgement. It's not sexism at work, it's biology.

She's a mystical clay statue given life.

He's a Strontian.

How does my knowledge of human biology help???

I have enough trouble with human females as it is.

In the DCNu she a demigod

Zeus's batted to be exact

Actually, she's now the full fledged God of War.

*Bastard

PS for some reason I don't have Bastard in my fone dictionary

@DS cool didn't know that

Originally posted by Warlord
-Gladiator - split

- Orion - she takes 4/10

-Thor - she takes 4/10

-Silver Surfer - she takes 4/10

-Captain Marvel/Shazam - split

-Black Adam - she takes 4/10

-Martian Manhunter - non jobing Jonn should win 6/10

-Beta Ray Bill - she takes 4/10

-Hyperion (current) - she takes 4/10

-Blue Marvel - I need to see more from Adam

I pretty much agree with this. I'd be inclined to give her a slight edge against CM/Shazam because of the lasso and I think she'd do even worse against Surfer.

I throw my hands up when it comes to J'onn. Who knows.

Originally posted by maxivitopowe
*Bastard

PS for some reason I don't have Bastard in my fone dictionary

@DS cool didn't know that

Yah, she had to prevent the First Born from becoming the God of War, so she killed Ares.

http://i.newsarama.com/images/i/000/112/250/i02/wonderwoman23-2.jpg

some of the list above are impaired by their personality.
I see adam doing better than CM (and possibly Thor) due to not restraining. Surfer while having all the tools to smash her, is a space ghandi who wouldn't do his worse. as for Jonn I really hate how always is written as a second stringer. going all out he should be a Fernus level threat

Originally posted by Q99
In the top 1/3rd of herald, yes?

And the fact that Superman considers her number 2 doesn't tell you anything? That she has a rogue's gallery full of trans beings, stalemates high-heralds with regularity?

I suppose you must think Captain Marvel's a mid herald too.

He beat down Eradicator, who in turn is a mid herald, so yes, pretty obviously.

Combat results disagree with you. WW tooled Power Girl. For Tomorrow, Superman was unable to even get past Wonder Woman (and that's by a Superman writer in a Superman book). Sacrifice... well, you know how that turned out.

Cheetah, who beat Superman by ambush, and who, in Superman's own thoughts at the time, 'hits like Captain Marvel'? Caught and ripped up Wally West? Ripped up Firestorm? That Cheetah?

Supes considering her as #2 means as much as J'onn considering himself as strong as Supes. Nova's arch enemy is a reality warper. It doesn't all of a sudden elevate him to high herald status.

CM to me is high herald. Way too many times he's portrayed as Clark's equal or at least really right up there like a 1a and 1b type of explanation. Never have I seen Diana approach those portrayals. Never..

PG was not tooled. Tooled is Ultraman crushing BA's face. There was some mind foolery going on there too.

I just don't see Achilles a solid mid. I need more than him beating Erads. In terms of his strengths, he's just not as strong, as durable, as versatile, and as powerful as real mid heralds..

Cheetah is mid at best but more like low. She has a power set that can fukk with beings above her from time to time, but I don't see her constantly hangin with real mid herald studs. When she can regularly beat guys like Stardust, Firelord, Nova Prime, Power Girl, Guy Gardner, etc, call me...

And lastly, I'm sexist. So there!

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Which of these is Diana at least 5/10 against? Is she truly in this class of heroes?

Wonder Woman vs,

-Gladiator 4-5/10

- Orion-4/10

-Thor - 4/10

-Silver Surfer- 1/10

-Captain Marvel/Shazam-5/10

-Black Adam 4/10

-Martian Manhunter-2/10

-Beta Ray Bill-5/0

-Hyperion (current)-3/10

-Blue Marvel- 5-6/10

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Supes considering her as #2 means as much as J'onn considering himself as strong as Supes.

I thought you were going to say it means as much as him saying that Martian Manhunter is the most powerful being on the planet.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
I thought you were going to say it means as much as him saying that Martian Manhunter is the most powerful being on the planet.
Aight..
Let's. Go with yours...

Pre-Reboot, I see her splitting or maybe beating Hyperion and Blue Marvel.

Everyone else defeat her or just flat out stomp her.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Supes considering her as #2 means as much as J'onn considering himself as strong as Supes.

Yet your argument is based on these examples of her being behind Superman. Even though the statements are pretty clearly 'she's *right* behind Superman,' you leave part of it out.


Plus, it's not like it's just Superman, Batman holds the same opinion, J'onn has no objection to it, etc..





If one with regularly fights and beats a variety of trans strait up, it at least shows one to be quite effective against that type of foes.

And it's not like Nova takes his arch enemy reality warper strait up the way Wonder Woman does Circe.





Yea, funny you say that when Diana has a better track record against Superman. If you're ranking CM as higher due to his record against Superman when Diana has a better record, you've got some wires mixed up.

Going by your statements on how you rank CM, we pretty much gotta rank WW as high herald. There's no other way it makes sense.





Ok, she 'easily dodged attacks and outmaneuvered her when she got serious, and was unbothered by PG punching her to Canada.'



Well lesse, he flat-out outpowered Erads, he's got a special power to prevent him from getting hit, he's got a spear of the gods, and he's got regen of a level where a heart hit is a temporary inconvenience.


This, again, seems to be a case of you're ranking low because you want to rank low/preconceived notions, but it really doesn't match with the performance.






She's faster than Superman/Diana, faster than any non-flash, and has near-WW strength.

In a blitz, the way she normal fights? She could take out most mids. Ranged fliers are admittedly a problem, but get 'em near the ground and she'll be quite overwhelming and could take 'em out pretty fast.


Also, you consider Firestorm a mid, right? She's ripped him over too. Actually come to think of it, the only non-Diana high level characters I can recall her fighting are Firestorm (Cheetah won), Flash (Cheetah won), and Superman (Cheetah won). And with Wonder Woman, Diana often has trouble even tagging her, even though Diana's tagged the Flash and Zoom (Cheetah being not as-fast, but more agile than those two).

So either she's the luckiest low herald ever, or her performance record is on the level of a mid.






Well, duh. That just indicates we shouldn't take your opinions seriously.

Just to be clear, I treat most of your opinions on these characters very much like you probably treat h1a8's comments.




There's a huge disconnect between some opinions here and the shown performance.


Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Pre-Reboot, I see her splitting or maybe beating Hyperion and Blue Marvel.

Everyone else defeat her or just flat out stomp her.

So just to lay it out- you consider all of that everyone else to be noticeably stronger than Superman, who does not stomp her?

Originally posted by Naija boy


Why the big gap in wins between Hyperion and Blue Marvel, especially when Blue Marvel defeated King Hyperion?