Emperor Joker vs HoM Wanda

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Warlord
Discuss

I am Vegeta
Joker end of discussion.

Odekahn
Originally posted by I am Vegeta
Joker end of discussion.

Reflassshh
Joker takes this.

Tony Stark
Wanda wins end of discussion.

I am Vegeta
Originally posted by Tony Stark
Wanda wins end of discussion. copycat make up your own comment anyway you are also wrong.

Odekahn
Originally posted by I am Vegeta
copycat make up your own comment anyway you are also wrong.

You tell him thumb up

laughing out loud

Bouboumaster
No more Joker

Warlord
seriously though, weren't they comparable in power?
wanda's effects were multiversal even

abhilegend
Originally posted by Warlord
seriously though, weren't they comparable in power?
wanda's effects were multiversal even
Wanda didn't have any conscious control over chaos wave though.

Warlord
indeed... the effects weere there though. and the things she wanted to affect she did.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Warlord
indeed... the effects weere there though. and the things she wanted to affect she did.

Not quite.

She said no more mutants. But the cash cows of Marvel were unaffected (Wolverine, the more popular X-men etc)

When Emperor Joker did something, he managed to break DC's biggest cash cow (Batman).

This leads me to pick Joker as the more powerful.

evil face

abhilegend
Her conscious acts were limited to a single universe though.

Warlord
you have a point.
what about the ability to affect different universes?

abhilegend
Joker was about to destroy universeS.

pym-ftw
Stalemate as they can both do anything.

Lol @ Joker side arguing about mental health though...

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by pym-ftw
Stalemate as they can both do anything.

Lol @ Joker side arguing about mental health though...

There're arguments about mental health??

pym-ftw
About "control"

I am Vegeta
Mental health Wanda wins
Power control joker wins

pym-ftw
Lol.

DarkSaint85
Lol.

Well, way I see it, whatever the Joker wanted to happen, happened. But although Wanda said 'No more mutants', the reality was, there were still mutants running around (initially, the 198, then it was retconned to be a 'symbolic number'). So she wasn't as powerful.

zopzop
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol.

Well, way I see it, whatever the Joker wanted to happen, happened. But although Wanda said 'No more mutants', the reality was, there were still mutants running around (initially, the 198, then it was retconned to be a 'symbolic number'). So she wasn't as powerful.
Didn't the Chaos Wave she created with that spell need to hit Otherworld before it's effects were truly multi/omniversal? And even then like you said, there were still mutants around. Assuming the number was symbolic, it doesn't change the fact that NEW mutants were popping up.

PS who was the most powerful person HoM Wanda beat btw?

As to the thread, IMHO, Joker should destroy her.

Blue Area Vet
Originally posted by I am Vegeta
copycat make up your own comment anyway you are also wrong.

Who let this kid in? He doesn't meet the height requirement to ride.

Blue Area Vet
Originally posted by zopzop
Didn't the Chaos Wave she created with that spell need to hit Otherworld before it's effects were truly multi/omniversal? And even then like you said, there were still mutants around. Assuming the number was symbolic, it doesn't change the fact that NEW mutants were popping up.

PS who was the most powerful person HoM Wanda beat btw?

As to the thread, IMHO, Joker should destroy her.

She obviously didn't want all mutants dead subconciously. Please don't act like the fact there was mutants left was a sign of a limit to her powers. She is also not evil like the Joker. She changed the damn universe and created a new history. Completely uber.

SquallX
Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
She obviously didn't want all mutants dead subconciously. Please don't act like the fact there was mutants left was a sign of a limit to her powers. She is also not evil like the Joker. She changed the damn universe and created a new history. Completely uber.

You can't just decide to nitpick something when it doesn't suit your needs.

Fact is, Wanda said no more Mutants, the fact that there still mutants running around proved she was limited somewhat.

Where as Joker had the Universe in the palm of his hands, and only lost through pis.

abhilegend
Originally posted by pym-ftw
Stalemate as they can both do anything.

Lol @ Joker side arguing about mental health though...
Its not about mental control.

I am Vegeta
Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Who let this kid in? He doesn't meet the height requirement to ride. saids the 3 foot troll

Blue Area Vet
Originally posted by SquallX
You can't just decide to nitpick something when it doesn't suit your needs.

Fact is, Wanda said no more Mutants, the fact that there still mutants running around proved she was limited somewhat.

Where as Joker had the Universe in the palm of his hands, and only lost through pis.

I'm not nitpicking it, the people saying Joker was more powerful because Wanda didn't erase all mutants out of existence are nitpicking. This is not about me and what I like but nice try. By the way, Joker could not erase Batman out of existence and this was his stated weakness and the reason he lost.

Blue Area Vet
Originally posted by I am Vegeta
saids the 3 foot troll

You should chnage your name to I am Groot since you have his vocabulary.

I am Vegeta
Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
You should chnage your name to I am Groot since you have his vocabulary. said the 3 foot troll.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
She obviously didn't want all mutants dead subconciously. Please don't act like the fact there was mutants left was a sign of a limit to her powers. She is also not evil like the Joker. She changed the damn universe and created a new history. Completely uber.
Joker did all that stuff as a noob under 6.9 seconds and only two people could break through the reality manipulation, superman and spectre.

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/17087707_EmperorJokerPage17.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/17087714_EmperorJokerPage18.jpg

Wanda's reality manipulation was so filmsy that people like skrull queen were able to break through it.

SquallX
Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
I'm not nitpicking it, the people saying Joker was more powerful because Wanda didn't erase all mutants out of existence are nitpicking. This is not about me and what I like but nice try. By the way, Joker could not erase Batman out of existence and this was his stated weakness and the reason he lost.

You are nitpicking. Wanda didn't want anymore mutants around, yet she wasn't able to erase all of them. That right there is a limit. Now did she put that limit on herself, will never know.

The reason Joker didn't erase Batman completely wasn't because he couldn't, since he actually did kill Bruce multiple times, was because he sees Bruce as his other half. And without Batman he himself feels incomplete.

SquallX
Originally posted by abhilegend
Joker did all that stuff as a noob under 6.9 seconds and only two people could break through the reality manipulation, superman and spectre.

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/17087707_EmperorJokerPage17.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/17087714_EmperorJokerPage18.jpg

Wanda's reality manipulation was so filmsy that people like skrull queen were able to break through it.

Actually is 69, not 6.9.

pym-ftw
Originally posted by SquallX
You are nitpicking. Wanda didn't want anymore mutants around, yet she wasn't able to erase all of them. That right there is a limit. Now did she put that limit on herself, will never know.

The reason Joker didn't erase Batman completely wasn't because he couldn't, since he actually did kill Bruce multiple times, was because he sees Bruce as his other half. And without Batman he himself feels incomplete.
So in your opinion Wolverine > HoM Wanda?

Lol

abhilegend
Originally posted by SquallX
Actually is 69, not 6.9.
Oops.

SquallX
Originally posted by pym-ftw
So in your opinion Wolverine > HoM Wanda?

Lol

Did i say that? No, i didn't.

Maybe the reason was because she tasked herself out and was unable to erase Logan. Not because Logan's more powerful.

Warlord
Logan can't be erased from the MU. Fact

pym-ftw
Originally posted by SquallX
Did i say that? No, i didn't.

Maybe the reason was because she tasked herself out and was unable to erase Logan. Not because Logan's more powerful.
You implied it.

Pro tip: don't start a statement with maybe while pulling at straws.

SquallX
Originally posted by pym-ftw
You implied it.

Pro tip: don't start a statement with maybe while pulling at straws.

Am not pulling at straws. It's on you to prove why Wanda was unable to end all mutants.

Facts is, she wanted to kill all mutants, yet that wasn't the case.

That doesn't mean Logan was more powerful, it just mean, she has limits. Or maybe it tasked her out doing such a feat that Logan though a mutant went under her influence by sheer luck.

Galan007
Joker'd warp her into a smiling parakeet, just like he did to Spectre.

Joker 10/10.

pym-ftw
Or

She didn't want to kill all mutants...

Your saying she couldn't, and then saying she could. You want me to bail you out of the contradiction.

That is textbook pulling at straws.

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by Bouboumaster
No more Joker
thumb up

operator616
Originally posted by abhilegend
Joker did all that stuff as a noob under 6.9 seconds and only two people could break through the reality manipulation, superman and spectre.

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/17087707_EmperorJokerPage17.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/17087714_EmperorJokerPage18.jpg

Wanda's reality manipulation was so filmsy that people like skrull queen were able to break through it.

I could also say that Steel was able to break Joker's reality manipulation, in the arc:

http://i.imgur.com/OStDoAr.jpg?1

And do you actually expect Marvel to wipe out all of its mutants? Also Wanda has probability power, so that sort of helps explain the situation.

Nevertheless she did erase 99% (initially it was 90% then it became 99%) of mutants across the omniverse , as explained in Children's Crusade #6:

http://i.imgur.com/dK7WTlx.jpg?1

I also have further evidence where we see alternate realities suffering from the effects as well.

Fact is, as shown in X Men: Endangered Species, her "no more mutants" spell completely changed all reality:

http://i.imgur.com/nmvbjBr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YIOnJkU.jpg

And at the same time, she restored a reality,(History of MU):

http://i.imgur.com/SJhLx4M.jpg?1

You're gonna say that all this is unimpressive? That's better than anything Emperor Joker did, and that's setting aside the Chaos Wave.

abhilegend
Originally posted by operator616
I could also say that Steel was able to break Joker's reality manipulation, in the arc:

http://i.imgur.com/OStDoAr.jpg?1

And do you actually expect Marvel to wipe out all of its mutants? Also Wanda has probability power, so that sort of helps explain the situation.

Nevertheless she did erase 99% (initially it was 90% then it became 99%) of mutants across the omniverse , as explained in Children's Crusade #6:

http://i.imgur.com/dK7WTlx.jpg?1

I also have further evidence where we see alternate realities suffering from the effects as well.

Fact is, as shown in X Men: Endangered Species, her "no more mutants" spell completely changed all reality:

http://i.imgur.com/nmvbjBr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YIOnJkU.jpg

And at the same time, she restored a reality,(History of MU):

http://i.imgur.com/SJhLx4M.jpg?1

You're gonna say that all this is unimpressive? That's better than anything Emperor Joker did, and that's setting aside the Chaos Wave.
Not really. Steel basically had some kind of scientific formulas in his head, he still believed 2+2=Fish according to Joker's reality manipulations.

Nothing of that is more impressive than Joker about to destroy all of reality at his peak of power.

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/strongestwillincreation.jpg

He also destroyed and instantly recreated DCU.

Galan007
Joker's feat was more than it seemed. Aside from remaking reality, destroying reality, and remaking reality yet again, he also mucked up "all five dimensions"(when he was still a n00b with his powers), as Mxy noted:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17088419/00.jpg.html


Anywho, if Joker can do this to the Spectre entity:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17088420/0.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17088421/1.jpg.html

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17088422/2.jpg.html

And this to the Quintessence:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17088423/3.jpg.html

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17088424/4.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17088425/5.jpg.html


...He can certainly do the same to Wanda(at the very least), imo. She wasn't exactly untouchable, after all:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17088438/6.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17088439/7.jpg.html

abhilegend
Originally posted by Galan007
Joker's feat was more than it seemed. Aside from remaking reality, destroying reality, and remaking reality yet again, he also mucked up "all five dimensions"(when he was still a n00b with his powers), as Mxy noted:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17088419/00.jpg.html


Anywho, if Joker can do this to the Spectre entity:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17088420/0.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17088421/1.jpg.html

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17088422/2.jpg.html

And this to the Quintessence:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17088423/3.jpg.html

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17088424/4.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17088425/5.jpg.html


...He can certainly do the same to Wanda(at the very least), imo. She wasn't exactly untouchable, after all:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17088438/6.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17088439/7.jpg.html
thumb up

operator616
@ Galan: Joker causing all the 5 dimensions going haywire is his best feat, imo, especially considering that it happened in the 3rd issue of the arc iirc, he had very little control over the power.

Spectre wasn't really at his best in that time period. Impressive nonetheless.

I never even said who wins regarding this battle, i was just comparing feats.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Not really. Steel basically had some kind of scientific formulas in his head, he still believed 2+2=Fish according to Joker's reality manipulations.

Nothing of that is more impressive than Joker about to destroy all of reality at his peak of power.

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/strongestwillincreation.jpg

He also destroyed and instantly recreated DCU.

Doesn't change the fact that he did resist the Joker. Also Joker's influence didn't extend to the entire universe instantly, we see the Quintessence just fine in Superman: emperor Joker, 5th issue of the arc, before Joker takes over.

You posted a scan of Joker's potential he didn't really destroy everything, but he certainly had the potential to. He only destroyed 1 universe and recreated it.

Galan007
Originally posted by operator616
@ Galan: Joker causing all the 5 dimensions going haywire is his best feat, imo, especially considering that it happened in the 3rd issue of the arc iirc, he had very little control over the power.

Spectre wasn't really at his best in that time period. Impressive nonetheless.

I never even said who wins regarding this battle, i was just comparing feats. thumb up Especially given the sheer size/scale of the higher dimensions.

Cool beans. Just my opinion, is all.

abhilegend
Originally posted by operator616
@ Galan: Joker causing all the 5 dimensions going haywire is his best feat, imo, especially considering that it happened in the 3rd issue of the arc iirc, he had very little control over the power.

Spectre wasn't really at his best in that time period. Impressive nonetheless.

I never even said who wins regarding this battle, i was just comparing feats.



Doesn't change the fact that he did resist the Joker. Also Joker's influence didn't extend to the entire universe instantly, we see the Quintessence just fine in Superman: emperor Joker, 5th issue of the arc, before Joker takes over.

You posted a scan of Joker's potential he didn't really destroy everything, but he certainly had the potential to. He only destroyed 1 universe and recreated it.
He wasn't resisting it. Joker didn't made science obsolete, he just made it illogical. We saw Lois gathering some renegade scientist.

Joker was going to destroy everything when Superman stopped him. Mxy and Spectre had to repair whole of space-time to repair the damage caused by him. That confirms what Spectre said.

Mr Master
Originally posted by operator616

And do you actually expect Marvel to wipe out all of its mutants?
Also Wanda has probability power, so that sort of helps explain the
situation.

Nevertheless she did erase 99% (initially it was 90% then it became
99%) of mutants across the omniverse , as explained in Children's Crusade #6:

http://i.imgur.com/dK7WTlx.jpg?1

I also have further evidence where we see alternate realities
suffering from the effects as well.

Fact is, as shown in X Men: Endangered Species,

her "no more mutants" spell completely changed all reality:

http://i.imgur.com/nmvbjBr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YIOnJkU.jpg

thumb up

... We were discussing this very subject back in early Oct. remember opr?
I see you saw what I'd seen.

So, to build on opr's truth:

Wanda (with a thought) remade 616 into 58163. When she did this,
she tore a hole in space-time withIN this "616" (58163 now).
Wanda's power (chaos wave) then spilled out of her newly remade universe
through the hole & swept an unknown number of realities into Otherworld.

In Otherworld,
Wanda's power continued to flow until it reached/Crashed down the Starlight Citadel, which is an omniversal Nexus.
This caused all the Universes connected to mesh and basically tear apart.
We later learned in "Die by the Sword" that indeed,
this omniversal implosion tore everything to pieces.

Now, Roma did state after this happened that the "chaos wave"
could expand further, from the "sundered planes to the sublimity" (wtf)
"perhaps even to the Ascension itself" ('God?')

Anyway, on panel it really seemed like only 58163 (formerly 616)
& that area in Otherworld where Roma & co. stood, was what was left.
Imo, writer must've been talking about obscure realms via Roma,
like the Crimson Cosmos, Atleza, Vishanti, WHR ... etc and like-
types
which aren't withIN Eternity, yet still part of "creation." ... Imo at-least.

Otherwise the "new" One Above All (Claremont) just retcon that in DbtS)

-------------------------------------

That aside,
for several years now I've noted that the "Chaos Wave"
is not Wanda's top feat in HOM.

It's actually her grand finally: "No More Mutants" ...
Which reverted the Omniverse back to normality,
simultaneously remade 58163 back into 616,
coupled with also nullifying the mutant gene across countless UniverseS,
where 90+% of all mutants were affected.

That final spell, (no more mutants) was activated with a thought.
(and traversed "All Reality" (omniverse) as presented by Strange to Beast)

This wasn't an isolated incident. (it was expressed in different stories)

Here Balasco noticed ... "All Reality changed"

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17090764_Wanda_All_Reality1.jpg


Ms Marvel (in her own title) ...

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17090771_WM_MsMarvel.jpg


Hey this is cute, Mighty kid, Franklin Richards' entire freakin history was changed:
(when Wanda re-created 616 in her image 58163)

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17090802_Wanda_remade_Franky.jpg

Just another victim of Wanda's power.

operator616
Originally posted by abhilegend
He wasn't resisting it. Joker didn't made science obsolete, he just made it illogical. We saw Lois gathering some renegade scientist.

Joker was going to destroy everything when Superman stopped him. Mxy and Spectre had to repair whole of space-time to repair the damage caused by him. That confirms what Spectre said.

Superman and Steel were both making the same observations, meaning Steel was resisting the Joker as much as superman was. It was shown on panel, no denying it. Though i suppose we'll agree to disagree, as always, unfortunately.

Well, since Joker didn't have total control over reality......at any point in the arc, Spectre's statement never came to be. Even in the same scan you posted Spectre mentions that Superman broke Joker's hold on reality before it became absolute/irresistible. And Joker can't really destroy everything because that would include destroying batman (permanently), and if he destroys batman he becomes sane (which was actually shown, meaning there would be no emperor joker). So it was impossible from the beginning.


Also, i fail to see what Joker actually did (setting aside his potential) that's superior to what Wanda achieved.

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