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In this thread, I have comprehensively analyzed Vitiate's power by uncovering and analyzing as much factual information about his capabilities as possible for me at the moment and also addressed some misconceptions concerning his capabilities and feats.

This is no ordinary analysis. If anybody needs to learn facts about Vitiate, just consult this thread to get answers.

Command of the Force is determined by proficiency in following aspects of Force manipulation:-

1. Control
2. Sense
3. Alter

"As Jedi initiates, you will learn and hone many abilities that draw upon the Force. These abilities follow three themes: Control, Sense and Alter. Control is centered on one's own body and is the focus of training for initiates. If you cannot remain in control of yourself, you will never be able to extend the Force and command your surrounding environment. Sense and Alter abilities will be the focus of your training later, when you are more skilled. (Jedi Seer Sabla-Mandibu)

Control:

"Control is internal. It is the Jedi's ability to recognize the Force in himself and to use it to his benefit." (Jedi Master Bodo Baas)

1. Tutaminis

"Tutaminis, or energy absorption, is the ability to channel or diffuse potentially harmful radiation by using the benevolent energy of the Force. It can be as simple as shielding the skin from excessive sunlight or as advanced as deflecting a blaster bolt with outstretched palm - something that even I have not mastered." (Jedi Seer Sabla-Mandibu)

Every Jedi (& Sith) is taught to protect himself/herself from various external threats. This is the art of Tutaminis.

Vitiate did not received any formal training but was proficient in the matters of defending himself from external threats:



In addition, Vitiate's ability to significantly slow down or prevent the decay of his original body (see below) is further indicative of his impressive grasp of matters of Tutanimis.

2. Ritual for accomplishment of prolonged life, decay prevention and power progression:



This is arguably the most complex ritual ever performed by dark side practitioners in the mythos. In this ritual, Vitiate not just tested the limits of his Alter abilities but also his Control abilities.

Q: Tested the limits of his Control abilities?

Check these revelations:











It is absolutely clear from the aforementioned revelations that Vitiate performed this ritual to create a reservoir of energy for himself which he utilized to extend his life (transformed himself in to an immortal being) and also became more powerful then ever before. This ritual latest 10 days and Vitiate controlled every aspect of it (demonstrating incredible command of Control), using it to modify/improve his personal capabilities and attributes; none of the other participating Sith Lords demonstrated matching level of Control during this ritual and they ended up dead/vaporized at the time of its conclusion.

Q: Decay prevention?



Revan attempted to assassinate Vitiate twice; once in 3960 BBY and once in 3950 BBY respectively. Vitiate was born in 5113 BBY and ascended (became Sith Emperor) in 4999 BBY. Therefore, Vitiate was about 1163 years old by the time of Revan's second assassination attempt on him. This indicates that Vitiate had been using his "original body" throughout this span of existence. Now this would have not been possible unless Vitiate could prevent decay and destruction of his original body (NOTE: dark side practices take toll on physical bodies) and he actually did. This is another remarkable feat of Control exhibited by Vitiate (something that Palpatine never demonstrated).

3. Essence Transfer:



To further increase his safeguard or chances of survival, Vitiate began to transfer his conscious from host to host, demonstrating remarkable power even in this form (matching Abeloth in this aspect). It shall be kept in mind that the act of essence transfer was a very risky task since the invasive conscious could be resisted by a self-aware individual (if strong enough to do so), resulting in failure of the essence transfer attempt and vanquishing of the essence itself. However, Vitiate was very powerful even in this form since he was able to possess many self-aware hosts and even influence external environment such as he damaged the Dark Temple (a gigantic structure which was extraordinarily durable as well) in an attempt to kill HoT and his allies during the phase of one of his essence transfer attempts.

If you succeed in turning this into a fourth Vitiate Versus Sidious thread, I will break you.

4. Force concealment:



It is obvious from the aforementioned revelation that Vitiate had mastered the art of Force concealment himself since he granted this capability to his special minion known as the First Son. Vitiate, himself, did not needed to conceal his presence from his potential enemies because he predominantly resided in his Sith Empire but he wanted to conceal the presence of his minions/agents (Children) whom he planted within the organizations such as the Jedi Order and the Republic, so he granted such power to First Son, a being who would monitor his Children.

It shall be kept in mind that the Children are not dark side practitioners themselves. They are "alternate personas" of the otherwise self-aware individuals which can be triggered/activated within them by the will of Vitiate. During this triggering phase, Children can perform actions that are unknown to them and beyond their capabilities because this hidden power within them was planted in them by Vitiate himself and is representative of his personal abilities actually. Here is an explanation:



5. Force speed

Every trained Force-user can use the Force to augment his physical capabilities such as the ability to react and move. Vitiate have fought many opponents during his span of existence and he was able to react to some of the greatest Jedi warriors/duelists of the mythos without issue.



It is apparent from the aforementioned revelation that Vitiate was an adept in the matters of Force speed as well. Within a span of few seconds, Vitiate managed to perform multiple actions:

- Electrocuted/severely injured Revan;
- Defended himself from flamethrower based attack;
- Disintegrated a droid;
- (& Moved towards Revan's position and picked up his lightsaber.

In-fact, the entire duel between Revan and Vitiate didn't lasted long (it ended in a span of some seconds); both Revan and Vitiate actually had been swift in their actions and reactions during the course of this duel.

Conclusive remarks:

Vitiate was remarkably talented in the Control aspects of the Force. Vitiate could use the Force to augment his physical capabilities, defend himself from various external threats and went to extreme lengths to significantly extend his life, increase his power and personal safeguard.

Vitiate seemingly accomplished what Plagueis wanted to accomplish; extend his life, prevent or minimize decay of his body and make himself stronger with midichlorian manipulation/alteration. However, Vitiate went beyond the mechanics of midichlorian manipulation/alteration after becoming proficient in the matters of immortality.

Aptly put here:

Alter:

"Alter is the third and most difficult area to master, for it involves the student's ability to modify the Force and redistribute its energies." (Jedi Master Bodo Baas)

"As a youngling you learned Control; as a Padawan you studied Sense; and as a Knight your education in the Force will continue in the discipline of Alter. These abilities, which use the Force to physically impact the surrounding environment, are the most difficult to master. But without Alter you are like a mud limpet - perceiving your world but incapable of touching it. With Alter, you will grow arms and legs. Learn these skills, practice them daily and you will deepen your aptitude for Alter throughout your career." (Jedi Seer Sabla-Madibu)

1. Telekinesis

Vitiate demonstrated remarkable command of telekinetic applications without any formal training. He could perform telekinetic feats without even gestures:





Vitiate could even "all but atomize" some opponents with his telekinetic abilities:



NOTE: Vitiate's feat of disintegrating T3-M4 represents an advanced Force technique known as Combustion:



Vitiate could overwhelm other masters of telekinetic abilities with his telekinetic prowess with barely an effort:



Vitiate possessed enormous raw power, enough to collapse gigantic buildings (if he wanted to); some of his followers (Dark Council members) were able to collapse buildings, but Vitiate was more powerful then any of them.

2. Alter environment capabilities & currently known powers

Vitiate was a master of unleashing the Force in the form of potent energies in offensive ways such as crackling bolts with hatred, drain a target of its life force, unleash concentrated blasts of energies to break a target, sever the connection of a target with the Force itself and even go as far as to alter the environments of planets with storms of energies.

Force lightning:

Vitiate could unleash exceptionally lethal crackling bolts of energy with his hatred, enough to utterly destroy powerful Force-users in a span of some seconds:



Revan survived this attack because T3-M4 saved him with quick action by interrupting Vitiate. As noted earlier in the Control section, Revan got severely wounded in an extremely short period of time by the storm of lightning unleashed by Vitiate. If T3-M4 had not interfered, Revan would have died or worse.

Now keep in mind that Revan was an absolute master of Tutaminis (defensive aspects of the Force) and he still stood no chance against the might of Vitiate. Earlier, Revan had comfortably handled another Sith Lord with amazing grasp of Sith lightning but Vitiate is seemingly on a whole new level in these matters in comparison to any Force-user in the mythos.

While Vitiate could be extremely lethal with his crackling bolts, he could also be very much in control of this powers: he unleashed a storm of crackling bolts on a Jedi Strike Team led by Tol Braga with which he disarmed the entire team but did not burn the Jedi to ash or utterly destroy them (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Game). Vitiate instead decided to use these Jedi as his pawns.

Vitiate possessed such a command of crackling bolts that he could summon storms of lighting on planetary scale like he did on Dromund Kaas; he is rumored to have (single-handedly) performed rituals to permanently alter the environmental conditions of Dromund Kaas, transforming it in to place strong in the dark side on the whole.

Force Drain:

Vitiate was a master of Force Drain and associated talents, capable of draining enormous number of individuals simultaneously.

Vitiate created a "gigantic reservoir of energy" for himself from the ritual he orchestrated on Medriaas, leaving this planet a void in the universe. Vitiate consumed this reservoir of energy with his dark sorcery (Force Drain involved), making himself more powerful then he ever had been, prolong his life for centuries, prevent decay of his original body and even share his immense power with other Force-users (minions) on galactic scale to increase his reach accordingly.

Reminder:



After this power progression, Vitiate was capable of pulling off Nathema like dark sorcery "without external aid" because his capacity as a practitioner of the Force had vastly increased in the aftermath:



Revan figured out this fact as well:



NOTE: For additional information, please recheck the Sense section.

Force blasts:

Vitiate could reshape his crackling bolts or offensive telepathic applications in to concentrated blasts of energies which he could unleash on his opponents to overwhelm them. Vitiate unleashed this power on a Jedi Strike Team of some of the most powerful Jedi of the Order to break it, twisting them all to the dark side.

Telepathic abilities:

Vitiate possessed unprecedented command of telepathic abilities, utilizing such powers for offensive purposes as well. In other words, Vitiate's telepathic abilities encompassed all aspects of the Force: Control, Sense and Alter.

Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi Companion confirms that powers such as Control Mind require combination of Contol, Sense and Alter abilities to work.

Vitiate could affect and control minds of his targets to persuade them to do his bidding against their will (reducing them to puppets), inflict pain on them, disorient them by dampening their senses, probe them and even destroy their minds. Vitiate demonstrated the power to break even powerful Force-users, an impossible task for most Force-users.

Vitiate have gone as far as to break multiple powerful Force-users simultaneously. To give you an idea of how difficult is this task: it took combined might of Mace Windu, Obi-Wan and Anakin Skywalker to compel a normal but strong-willed individual (Cad Bane) to reveal the truth to them during an interrogation process. In contrast, Vitiate's telepathic abilities are on a level which is difficult to comprehend; he would single-handedly broken the aforementioned Jedi instead and not just Cad Bane.







Sever Force:

Vitiate possessed the capability to sever the connection of Force-users from the Force itself to make then vulnerable like he did to Lord Dramath:



Vitiate performed the aforementioned feat when he was just 10 years old. Once can only imagine how proficient he would have become with this talent at the height of his power.

Mysterious powers:

Vitiate, being an absolute master of dark arts, was capable of summoning powers of extremely lethal proportions to destroy overwhelming odds.

Here is an example of Vitiate utilizing his dark sorcery in combat situations to overcome overwhelming odds:



Vitiate may have known lot of powers but content featuring him is limited at the moment so full extent of his capabilities are unknown accordingly as well.

Aptly put here:

Conclusive remarks:

Vitiate possessed power of such magnitude that he overshadowed millions of Force-users during his span of existence (including remarkably powerful ones) and was able to spread his influence on galactic scale without use of technological means. In single combat, Vitiate could disarm and eliminate multiple powerful Force-users simultaneously. On one occasion, Vitiate killed 9 Dark Council members after summoning them in to his throne room (Scourge found this out and informed Revan and Meetra about this development; for more information, consult Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan). A lone Dark Council member is considered to be a dark side prodigy (Star Wars: The Old Republic Revan; Star Wars: The Old Republic: Game: Game; Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia). Vitiate possessed such command of dark sorcery that he could influence whole planets, transforming them in to nexuses of dark side. Vitiate had acquired such capabilities which Plagueis wished to have and only Sidious came close to unlock among all of the known Sith Lords. In-fact, Vitiate was making arrangements to transform himself in to an omnipotent being of unbelievable power by consuming the entire galaxy after centuries worth of studying the dark side (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia). This grand plan was fortunately or unfortunately compromised by actions of HoT and his allies (including Scourge) who stopped Vitiate before it was too late.

Addressing misconceptions:

It is often asserted that the trio of Revan, Meetra and Scourge could undermine Vitiate in single combat. This was a possibility but a remote one; the trio could undermine Vitiate but only in circumstantial way like the events unfolded in Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan. However, the same source confirms that even this formidable trio did not match the power of Vitiate and stood a chance against him in a non-circumstantial scenario:



As you can note, Vitiate would have eventually slaughtered the trio of Revan, Meetra and Scourge in single combat. While it is true that their is strength in numbers and shit can happen during combat situations, unprecedentedly powerful individuals are still not easy to defeat.

But HoT undermined Vitiate?

While HoT was an incredibly powerful Force-user himself, it was not possible for him to undermine Vitiate either without assistance from Scourge and other allies.

Check this important revelation:



Scourge learned a great deal about Vitiate while serving him as Emperor's Wrath for about 3 centuries. He eventually found out that Vitiate would orchestrate his next phase of power progression (grand plan hinted above) after starting a war with the Republic and the Jedi Order; while Vitiate's Sith Empire would be preoccupied with the war, Vitiate would use this situation to his advantage by commencing a ritual of such a scope that it would consume entire galaxy at its conclusion and make him unbelievably powerful. It was during this time that Scourge would find the necessary opening to undermine Vitiate because the latter would have invested much of his powers in this ritual to ensure its success and he would be vulnerable in combat situation at this moment. And indeed this happened.

When Vitiate orchestrated his grand plan during the Great Galactic War after witnessing the actions of HoT and his allies against him. Scourge betrayed Vitiate at this moment and joined HoT's cause to undermine him (Vitiate). Scourge lured HoT and his allies to (another) confrontation with Vitiate in which the latter suffered a major setback and his grand plan failed.

Here;

You've learned that the Emperor is on Dromund Kaas, temporarily weakened by your efforts thwarting his plan for galactic annihilation. Striking at him now is your best chance to defeat him once and for all. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Game)

Under fair circumstances, HoT stood no chance against Vitiate as apparent from this confrontation:





Four of the galaxy's most powerful Jedi (as a team) miserably failed against Vitiate when he wasn't vulnerable. Now what could one Jedi do?

Yes, some of the Vitiate's powers are not infallible such as his telepathic abilities but it is not easy to develop a countermeasure against his telepathic powers. The select few who managed to do so (e.g. Revan and HoT) had ended up broken from exposure to Vitiate's oppressive telepathic domination and were NOT ABLE TO break free without external aid (Revan from Jedi High Council's mindwipe and HoT from aid of Orgus Din's spirit). HoT had certainly improved by the time of his second confrontation with Vitiate (developed the capability to cope with and/or counter the effect of powerful dark side influences including vulnerability to Vitiate's telepathic abilities like Revan before him with great power) but this would still not have been enough to undermine Vitiate in a "fair scenario" as apparent from his extraordinary powers on the whole (details above) and lesson learned from Revan's second confrontation with him which also ended in a failure. Vitiate was indeed in the phase of recovering his strength at the time of his second confrontation with HoT (and his allies) but was still far from his original condition like he was at the height of power. Another hint is that Vitiate decided to create illusions to confuse HoT (and his allies) during this second confrontation which is indicative enough of his "temporary vulnerability" during this time, since he had never resorted to using illusions in combat situations before.

So Vitiate's fall is a plot-device related development. He had reached too far with his ambitions and the Force (having its own will) orchestrated his downfall. His fall was necessary otherwise their would have been no galaxy in which much of the Star Wars based events have taken place. Think.

Wise Jedi have often stated this:

"The Force works in mysterious ways, it seems."

Still, respect this:

@Oneness

Seriously? Have some patience before you decide to comment on a freshly started thread which is going to feature some analysis.

And no! This thread isn't about Sidious vs Vitiate. Thank you.

http://i.imgur.com/nVjhG.jpg

This is a tremendous amount of work. But I might recommend prefacing what is or isn't d20 mechanics from those sourcebooks. Descriptions are C-canon but what powers require what else may be on shakier ground.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This is a tremendous amount of work. But I might recommend prefacing what is or isn't d20 mechanics from those sourcebooks. Descriptions are C-canon but what powers require what else may be on shakier ground. Oh, now you care about the minutiae of different canons.

This is called being consistent. You should try it. I demonstrated why the novelizations aren't valid arguing material because of LFL guidelines I had nothing to do with, but that hurt your bias so you ignored it.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I demonstrated why the novelizations aren't valid arguing material

No, as they portray a more complete picture of the story Lucas was trying to tell.

I'm not bias toward any particular character or era.

Really? A few weeks ago you changed your name from Dolos to Oneness and had a War and Peace length homage to Anakin Skywalker in your profile. Your signatures and avatars have been referencing him in some way. I'm expecting next you have Shmi Skywalker tattoo'd on your heart.

Your asserion that the novels are a more complete picture is utter BS. LFL states that in canon conflicts, the most recent versions are deemed superior and more consistent with GL's vision, and furthermore that stuff originating from authors in novelizations is C-canon. Checkmate, bro.

I challenge you to address that with something else besides your skewed opinion.

Originally posted by Oneness

I'm not bias toward any particular character or era.
http://media.catmoji.com/post/ccre/youre-kidding-right.jpg

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD



Actually these quotes are from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This is a tremendous amount of work. But I might recommend prefacing what is or isn't d20 mechanics from those sourcebooks. Descriptions are C-canon but what powers require what else may be on shakier ground.
Thanks for your remarks.

Actually multiple canon sources confirm that several (Force) powers require combination of talents that qualify in spectrum of Control, Sense and Alter.

Here is revelation from Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi Companion:

http://i41.tinypic.com/2ebfg92.png

Every Force-user who is formally trained in the way of the Force, receives training in all aspects of the Force such as Control, Sense and Alter.

- Jedi initiates (younglings) hone their talents in Control.
- Jedi padawans hone their talents in Sense.
- Jedi Knights hone their talents in Alter.

Force-users are taught all of these aspects of the Force because they cannot do much in Alter aspect otherwise.

So D20 rules have nothing to do with these ground realities. They are based on these ground realities actually.

This is the situation:

To learn an advanced power, it is vital to learn some other powers first.

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Vitiate/vitiate123_zps8fd59e10.png

^^^

Even if that unofficial quote is to be taken seriously, Vitiate can create that time during combat situations. It is not rocket science for someone as powerful and talented as Vitiate. He is not a padawan or something.

How much time required? Some seconds? Big deal.

B/W Mr. Drew is out of this business.

Sith Emperor has been defined by several authors. The recent source Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia is a product of several authors but Mr. Drew not involved in it.

The author of the book says he can't, and everytime he has done it succesfully, he has been aided by preparation, but he can just because you say so?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The author of the book says he can't, and everytime he has done it succesfully, he has been aided by preparation, but he can just because you say so?


The author of the book contradicted his own unofficial saying in the book.

Hint: Vitiate gave a slight mental brush to Scourge on moment's notice and Scourge was on the ground.

Scourge was a powerful individual by the way.

Revan resisted second time because he was 100% prepared to do so (had developed a countermeasure for this purpose). Prior to this, Vitiate broke him with "a fraction of his power."

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The author of the book says he can't, and everytime he has done it succesfully, he has been aided by preparation, but he can just because you say so?



Drews statement was unofficial and non-canon.

To claim the opposite of the author himself is not only stupid, it is unsupported.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
To claim the opposite of the author himself is not only stupid, it is unsupported.
Unsupported?

Have you even checked the revelations of Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia?

This source contradicts the novel on several points. It is this source which revealed that Vitiate broke the duo of Revan and Malak with "a fraction of his power."

As I pointed out before, Mr. Drew is not the only author who defines characters. His characters can be further defined by other authors.

---

Also, we should be careful with what Mr. Drew says unofficially.

If you ask him that "who can beat who" or "who is more powerful" through private communication, his typical unofficial response is that that anybody can win or loose in a combat situation.

This means that weak can defeat powerful in combat? Nice escape attempt from Mr. Drew.

In his official works, however, Mr. Drew very much likes to establish power levels of characters and does not feels hesitant to assert that who is unlikely to win against whom.

But according to yourself, Revan can destroy buildings because Drew say so.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Really? A few weeks ago you changed your name from Dolos to Oneness and had a War and Peace length homage to Anakin Skywalker in your profile. Your signatures and avatars have been referencing him in some way. I'm expecting next you have Shmi Skywalker tattoo'd on your heart.

That's called being a fan of that character. Biasm comes when allow your fanhood to hinder your ability to accept the truth.



That's not a real word. Do you mean to say my *asinine assertions?



The 7 novelizations Lucas wrote after making the scripts for his films and were released before the films - the whole reason for the novelizations was to tell a more in depth story.



Yea, except to my knowledge Lucas has never come out to deny anything from novels. He's given examples of differences, listed in the LFL article that you linked.



Only if Lucas denies that this or this happened. Which wouldn't make any sense pertaining to these novelizations he had a very heavy part in shaping. But perhaps the author will have misinterpreted him? What example do you have this contradictory claim made by GL?



I don't think my understanding is not skewed by my fanaticism.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
But according to yourself, Revan can destroy buildings because Drew say so.
This is something which have no contradiction or denial in the official sources.

Revan is officially recognized as an extraordinarily powerful Force-user so their is lot of room for creative liberties with him accordingly in canon.

Revan pulled down some asteroids on the platform of a space station to disorient or possibly crush the Imperial Strike Team which was sent to assassinate him, an indication of his amazing telekinetic prowess. Maybe Revan is capable of doing more, who knows.

In case of Vitiate's powers, we have multiple canon sources to consult and draw conclusion from. Not doing so is foolishness.

I finally got around to reading all of this and (obviously) I can't agree with your final assertion that the Hero only beat him through luck and the will of the Force:

As you said, the Hero grew more powerful after her first confrontation with Vitiate, in part because of the training that Vitiate himself had the Hero go through while under his control (whoops). Just because Vitiate beat her the first time doesn't mean its not possible for her to improve and defeat him later (Anakin vs Dooku).

Yeah, Scourge gave the Hero info on him, but Vitiate fought the Hero while possessing Kira, watched her fight with Scourge and probably got well acquainted with her own strengths and weaknesses while she was under his mental control and training on his Fortress (through reading her mind or just observations in training).

I've made my case for why him being weakened doesn't diminish the feat of defeating him elsewhere. Other than that, I don't see how it was any more plot-related or how the Force directly influenced the battle in the HoT's favor.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is something which have no contradiction or denial in the official sources.
But Drew's statement does?

Vitiate mind-b*tchslapping Scourge in an instant.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I finally got around to reading all of this and (obviously) I can't agree with your final assertion that the Hero only beat him through luck and the will of the Force:

As you said, the Hero grew more powerful after her first confrontation with Vitiate, in part because of the training that Vitiate himself had the Hero go through while under his control (whoops). Just because Vitiate beat her the first time doesn't mean its not possible for her to improve and defeat him later (Anakin vs Dooku).

Yeah, Scourge gave the Hero info on him, but Vitiate fought the Hero while possessing Kira, watched her fight with Scourge and probably got well acquainted with her own strengths and weaknesses while she was under his mental control and training on his Fortress (through reading her mind or just observations in training).

I've made my case for why him being weakened doesn't diminish the feat of defeating him elsewhere. Other than that, I don't see how it was any more plot-related or how the Force directly influenced the battle in the HoT's favor.
Thanks for your remarks. But the point is that if HoT's powers were diminished in the Dark Temple, how was he able to knock out so many Jedi level (or powerful Jedi) level opponents prior to reaching the position of Vitiate?

Revan's powers didn't diminish on Dromund Kaas. Same is true for Meetra.

Also, Vitiate was temporarily vulnerable during his second encounter with HoT. The game itself confirms this (information mentioned in the analysis). This is how the story is.

Scourge guides HoT in this respect. He understands when to attack Vitiate and HoT is the candidate who can do the job.

Otherwise, HoT would never have needed Scourge at all. The whole point of Scourge's betrayal is that he have figured out a way to undermine Vitiate.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
^^^

Thanks for your remarks. But the point is that if HoT's powers were diminished in the Dark Temple, how come he was able to knock out so many Jedi level opponents inside?

Revan's powers didn't diminish on Dromund Kaas. Same is true for Meetra.

Also, Vitiate was temporarily vulnerable (weakened from interruption from his ritual) during his second encounter with HoT. The game itself confirms this (information mentioned in the analysis). This is how the story is.

Scourge guides HoT in this respect. He understands when to attack Vitiate and HoT is the candidate who can do the job.

Otherwise, HoT would never have needed Scourge at all. The whole point of Scourge's betrayal is that he have figured out a way to undermine Vitiate.

The HoT is just that good. She's still well above them even weakened. Meetra killed dozens of Sith Lords on Malachor despite being similarly weakened.

Because Dromund Kaas is either an extremely weak nexus, or not even a nexus at all. It doesn't compare to the Dark Temple, that drove thousands of slaves insane just from working near it and has so much darkside energy in the air that blasters are disabled near it.

Yes I know he was. He was greatly weakened. But as I've pointed out, Scourge says he's recovering fast and he has the energy of the Dark Temple to draw on.

True, but attacking at the right time doesn't diminish the feat. At any other time the Emperor is too well protected to get to without effort that would screw the HoT over in a fight. They can't beat a fresh Vitiate after fighting through his forces.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The HoT is just that good. She's still well above them even weakened. Meetra killed dozens of Sith Lords on Malachor despite being similarly weakened.
These Jedi weren't weakened on these places. They just learned how to cope well with places strong in the dark side.

This is similar to how Malgus & Co. performed inside the Jedi Temple of Coruscant. Malgus and other Sith weren't weakened inside the Jedi Temple, they had learned to cope well with various environments. In-fact, Malgus tore down several columns of the Jedi Temple and killed many Jedi inside with his powers and skills.

Now this doesn't implies that every Jedi would have been fit in places strong in the dark side. Majority would not be (including Luke Skywalker). Revan, HoT and Meetra are special cases in the sense that they acquired the talent to resist the negative influence of strong dark side presence.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because Dromund Kaas is either an extremely weak nexus, or not even a nexus at all. It doesn't compare to the Dark Temple, that drove thousands of slaves insane just from working near it and has so much darkside energy in the air that blasters are disabled near it.

Yes I know he was. He was greatly weakened. But as I've pointed out, Scourge says he's recovering fast and he has the energy of the Dark Temple to draw on.

True, but attacking at the right time doesn't diminish the feat. At any other time the Emperor is too well protected to get to without effort that would screw the HoT over in a fight. They can't beat a fresh Vitiate after fighting through his forces.
Well, the entire Dromund Kaas is strong in the dark side but some parts of it qualify for nexus label such as Dark Temple.

Also, Vitiate had briefly disciplined all of the dark forces inside the Dark Temple, otherwise his Imperial Guard would have fallen victim to such forces.

HoT took this opportunity to slip inside, thanks to guidance of Scourge.

This is the point:

You've learned that the Emperor is on Dromund Kaas, temporarily weakened by your efforts thwarting his plan for galactic annihilation. Striking at him now is your best chance to defeat him once and for all.

Now, tremendous power was still required to stop Vitiate even during this moment of vulnerability. HoT was the only candidate valid for this job.

Scourge was being impatient.

I think Vitiate far less than he had been in his original body during his battle with HoT. I concede HoT was weakened but:

The powers obtained from Force drain are not constant. Nihilus lost some energy just from trying to Force drain Meetra Surik, who was another wound, and lost his power totally when Visas Marr sacrificed herself - it seems like sustaining too much damage or using too much energy can negate the strength gained by Force drain as well, seen by Sith who used it throughout the Inquisitor class.

Also, I think DE Sidious had lost most of it just by switching bodies - though he still had his original gargantuan power level, enough to best a dark side Luke in their first duel - but compassion amped DE Luke off Byss>>dark side DE Luke on Byss.

I'd go as far to say that, while death strengthened Sidious' natural power level; his nexus powers had greatly diminished in the destruction of the Second Death Star.

This makes perfect sense of you consider that he grew stronger as the Jedi order grew weaker, and as the balance shifted toward the dark side, and culminate that with his powers steadily rising throughout the Dark Times series - culminating in his feats in EaW: Forces Corruption, which occurred in between ESB and RoTJ. Perhaps Sidious was stronger than we thought in RoTJ - more than his natural power level, which was 20% greater than Vader's.

In fact, Vjun enhanced Dooku great enough to challenge Yoda for a while before claiming that Yoda would defeat the Emperor if he gave into the dark side (suggesting Yoda's natural power level was beyond Sidious').

I'm trying to bring some order here.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
But Drew's statement does?
His statements in relation to Vitiate's capabilities are subject to critical evaluation in the light of canon revelations.

Revan's capability to collapse buildings with his telekinetic abilities is not subject to similar critical evaluation because this is something that have not been discussed in canon sources. This is just additional information about his telekinetic abilities but still not something confirmed officially. In contrast, multiple sources provide information about Vitiate's telepathic abilities and all of that information should be taken in to consideration.

What we know about Revan at the moment is not necessarily a reflection of the full extent of his capabilities. Same is true for Vitiate.

Some years ago (when Revan was a game character), nobody had an idea that Revan could heal his wounds without need of medical attention, catch Sith lightning with bare hands like Yoda, was more powerful then any Jedi up to his time, stronger then Meetra and the Sith Lords she fought and vice versa. However, a novel came out and it confirmed all of this. In addition, another game came out and it reveals that Revan could chug asteroids or gigantic rocks at his opponents with barely an effort, unleash emerald lightning or similar, defend himself with a protection bubble and even teleport himself.

This is why we need to be cautious about unofficial opinion of authors. One author does not necessarily gets to decide what is true for a character and what is not, if multiple authors have defined the same character. This is how things work in Star Wars.

Originally posted by Oneness
That's called being a fan of that character. Biasm comes when allow your fanhood to hinder your ability to accept the truth.

Except that it becomes a problem when you become unwilling to concede defeat on behalf of your "fandom". You wouldn't be the first person to claim objectivity in this area and doubtful if you'd be the last.



A typo, my most grievious of sins. And probably the weakest part of my argument. Also, typing on a mobile or tablet is like pushing a peanut uphill with your nose.



1. GL isn't the author of the work. This is a lie.

2. Any later changes made by GL are more legitimate than previous incarnations. RotS novelization not only contradicts the movie so much it would bust my post character limit to summarize, but it predates the final edit of the film, which is more accurate per LFL's canon rules.

3. You haven't used a single source since this discussion began, just giving me your own opinion.



He doesn't have to do so. That's why he hires officials to regulate things and they chose to do so in the laziest way possible- by making tiers of canon without trying to keep them consistent. Again, pull a quote that defines RotS novel as equal or more valid than the latest movie versions.

Wait, you can't. That's explicitly not the case. Read the canon page. All of it.



Move them goalposts.

GL doesn't have to say that the novel contradicts his movie version; it actually does so. This means that when comparing two versions of events which depict his world, the one that he personally directed and released at a later date is more accurate and truer to his wishes

If GL wanted the stuff Stover wrote to happen on the big screen, it would have happened. He spent time and money injecting dancing stupid muppet songs into RotJ, making Han shoot second, and making blaster bolts brighter in the THX remastered version.

Your assertion that he acknowledges it as equally valid and chose to let the work contradict his and still share the same legitimacy is absurd.



Pretty sure most people don't. Haven't met any self-proclaimed fanatics lately, have you?

I don't see how making some changes in the graphics affects the novelizations either.

I don't think there's precedence for such an assumption, it sounds like a hack - a work around to ignore one specific novelization.

That's a pathetic strawman. Reread the post and answer it directly instead of attacking something else entirely.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
These Jedi weren't weakened on these places. They just learned how to cope well with places strong in the dark side.

This is similar to how Malgus & Co. performed inside the Jedi Temple of Coruscant. Malgus and other Sith weren't weakened inside the Jedi Temple, they had learned to cope well with various environments. In-fact, Malgus tore down several columns of the Jedi Temple and killed many Jedi inside with his powers and skills.

Now this doesn't implies that every Jedi would have been fit in places strong in the dark side. Majority would not be (including Luke Skywalker). Revan, HoT and Meetra are special cases in the sense that they acquired the talent to resist the negative influence of strong dark side presence.

Yes, they were. Just because it wasn't mentioned doesn't mean they were not weakened. Hell, Meetra says it was agony just walking on Malachor's surface. Its said in canon that a Jedi is weakened on a darkside nexus. Where are you getting that these Jedi learned not to be? You're making this up entirely on your own opinion.

Again, just because it isn't said that they were, doesn't mean they weren't. And who says the Jedi Temple was a lightside nexus at that point in time? Again, where are you getting the idea that Malgus and co could resist being weakened by a nexus? Give me some evidence that this was the case.

Where did they acquire that talent? Where does it say they have this talent? What talent exactly is this? Is it a Force power? It is mentioned in a sourcebook or encyclopedia?

Of course, I know you can't answer those questions. Because you're making it up.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Well, the entire Dromund Kaas is strong in the dark side but some parts of it qualify for nexus label such as Dark Temple.

Also, Vitiate had briefly disciplined all of the dark forces inside the Dark Temple, otherwise his Imperial Guard would have fallen victim to such forces.

As I said, Domund Kaas is not a strong nexus, if it is one at all. Strong nexus' have a tendency to affect people inside them, turn them insane ect. But Dromund Kaas had a thriving Imperial population of a millennia, with no problems arising from the darkside other than the perpetual storm.

Ok? So what?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
HoT took this opportunity to slip inside, thanks to guidance of Scourge.

This is the point:

You've learned that the Emperor is on Dromund Kaas, temporarily weakened by your efforts thwarting his plan for galactic annihilation. Striking at him now is your best chance to defeat him once and for all.

Now, tremendous power was still required to stop Vitiate even during this moment of vulnerability. HoT was the only candidate valid for this job.

Scourge was being impatient.

The HoT did not "slip inside". The Republic lead a full on fleet invasion on Dromund Kaas, a suicide mission, to get the HoT to the surface. From there they led an assualt in Kaas City, not a small feat: "Dromund Kaas is the Imperial capital. Legions of Sith call it home. The remaining population is almost entirely imperial military. We're invading a planet of people who want us dead. We'll have to fight for every centimeter of ground." - Scourge. They steal a shuttle to get to the Dark Temple. Then they still had to fight through Vitiates Sith followers and the Imperial Guard. Legions of the best fighting force in the galaxy..... against six people. The only way Scourge helped was in getting the shuttle, but still it was not as simple as you put it. Trust me, I've actually played the mission, I know the extent of Scourges help in it.

Yes, I knoooooow about that quote. I played the game. What do you think it changes? Yes, he was weakened. Yes, it was the best chance to defeat him. That doesn't make the HoT's victory any less impressive than I've put it. It was the best chance because him being weakened was the only way they could beat him, but not because the HoT can only beat a a weakened Vitiate. But because he's the single most well protected person in the galaxy. If the HoT attacked him in the Dark Temple after going through legions of Imperial Guardsmen, and Vitiate was still at 100% power, she'd get her fvcking ass kicked. Because she'd be tired and drained by the temple and he'd be amped and completely fresh. Stop waving that statement around without considering all the factors around it.

Novels are primary sources as well, everything starts from prose. Without them the PT era wouldn't stand literary criticism, without them SW is less. So yeah, I take the novels over everything tv or movie related outside the OT movies themselves - that trilogy was done right. Inspired, really.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The author of the book contradicted his own unofficial saying in the book.

Hint: Vitiate gave a slight mental brush to Scourge on moment's notice and Scourge was on the ground.

Scourge was a powerful individual by the way.

Revan resisted second time because he was 100% prepared to do so (had developed a countermeasure for this purpose). Prior to this, Vitiate broke him with "a fraction of his power."

Vittiate was a powerhouse not God. He would have been killed earlier by the Revan Exile duo, so... Being an emperor makes you vulnerable, even a clever assassin with no force abilities can take you out.

Except this is baseless...

It's in the novelization of the prequel of the TOR game era. Basically, the Exile Surik could have killed him, but chose not to - preventing herself from falling to the dark side and ensuring that Vittiate was given a chance for repentance.

Originally posted by Allankles
- preventing herself from falling to the dark side and ensuring that Vittiate was given a chance for repentance.

Actually it was to save Revan's life.

Vitiate > HoT. I suspect he was weakened in the second fight and Scourge helped take advantage of this weakness. Hence his betrayal.

teehee