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The EXPERIENCED Ghost Rider, not the amateur one.

Odin is at full power.

Who takes this?

Is this Yaweh infused Ghost Rider? Because if so...I'm betting on the skyfather empowered Ghost Rider.

Seeing as Ghost Rider is the herald of the skyfather Yaweh, I would place him on Thor's level normally. However similar to how Thor surpasses Odin when empowered by the Odin Force, so too does Ghost Rider when he was empowered by all of Yaweh.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Is this Yaweh infused Ghost Rider? Because if so...I'm betting on the skyfather empowered Ghost Rider.

Seeing as Ghost Rider is the herald of the skyfather Yaweh, I would place him on Thor's level normally. However similar to how Thor surpasses Odin when empowered by the Odin Force, so too does Ghost Rider when he was empowered by all of Yaweh. This is the Ghost Rider that defeated Galactus in under 10 seconds.

Odin loses, and or dies from penance stare.

Odin stomps.

There's a ghost rider that defeated Galactus in under 10 seconds?

Originally posted by Jmanghan
The EXPERIENCED Ghost Rider, not the amateur one.

Odin is at full power.

Who takes this?

Both Blaze and Ketch are very experienced GRs.

Originally posted by Cogito
There's a ghost rider that defeated Galactus in under 10 seconds?

Fantastic Four, animated series from the nineties.

Originally posted by Board Walker

Seeing as Ghost Rider is the herald of the skyfather Yaweh,

Outside of the Ghost Rider comics, he's a skyfather; inside of it, he's a supreme being.

Ill provide evidence later if needed.

I already know Ghost Rider is skyfather and beyond (depending on the comic), he is the personification of Yaweh's "will". That and he has pretty much gained the ability to channel all of the power of Yaweh's pantheon, which includes Yaweh and the demonic entities that encompass it.

Originally posted by Board Walker
I already know Ghost Rider is skyfather and beyond (depending on the comic), he is the personification of Yaweh's "will". That and he has pretty much gained the ability to channel all of the power of Yaweh's pantheon, which includes Yaweh and the demonic entities that encompass it.

.............I was referring to Yahweh not Ghost Rider.

Originally posted by Cogito
There's a ghost rider that defeated Galactus in under 10 seconds? Yeah, the fantastic four watched him do it, go on youtube and look up, Ghost Rider vs Galactus

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Both Blaze and Ketch are very experienced GRs.

I meant the one that can use its power to it's fullest. I remember when GR fought WW Hulk, there was a guy saying something about how GR's power is limitless or something, my memory is a bit dated on alot of this.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Fantastic Four, animated series from the nineties.

Oh, yeah, I've seen that.

Thought there was a canon instance as well

Hulk > Galactus.

Much more recent too.

That animated depiction of Galactus was already weakened to a great degree, iirc. And his feats would pale in comparison to what Odin has done.

Classic Zarathos in the original series was once on a similar level with Mephisto.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
This is the Ghost Rider that defeated Galactus in under 10 seconds.
That Galactus was hungry and weakened from attacks of the other heroes. Also, non-canon.

Originally posted by Epicurus
That Galactus was hungry and weakened from attacks of the other heroes. Also, non-canon.

It still happened. Batman defeated Hulk in a DC/Marvel Crossover, its obviously
non-canon, but it still happened.

Originally posted by operator616
Outside of the Ghost Rider comics, he's a skyfather; inside of it, he's a supreme being.

Ill provide evidence later if needed. just curious and would like to see this

Originally posted by Jmanghan
It still happened. Batman defeated Hulk in a DC/Marvel Crossover, its obviously
non-canon, but it still happened.
It being non-canon means that it isn't applicable here, per forum rules. Point to some instances where 616-Galactus was defeated by the Ghost Rider, and then we'll talk.

Originally posted by Epicurus
It being non-canon means that it isn't applicable here, per forum rules. Point to some instances where 616-Galactus was defeated by the Ghost Rider, and then we'll talk. So unless it happened within the main story, it means it didnt happen? :/

Originally posted by Jmanghan
So unless it happened within the main story, it means it didnt happen? :/

Technically, yes. See: Wikipedia entry for "canon"

Main storyline comics are considered canon. Elseworlds, What-Ifs, and other alternate universe comics are not canon, as well as any tv, movie, or other depictions. Basically, the F4 cartoon is as canon to the comic book Ghost Rider/Galactus as a fanfic.

Originally posted by Cogito
Technically, yes. See: Wikipedia entry for "canon"

Main storyline comics are considered canon. Elseworlds, What-Ifs, and other alternate universe comics are not canon, as well as any tv, movie, or other depictions. Basically, the F4 cartoon is as canon to the comic book Ghost Rider/Galactus as a fanfic. By that logic, Superhero cameos in other Animated shows and comic books are apparently never canon. Superman never meets Batman by that logic. Anything Superman does in any of Batman's comic books don't count as feats by that logic.

Pretty sure video game cut scenes are canon, as are the movies as they all take place in a designated marvel universe (dont have number on hand).

Also what if's, and alternate universes are also canon to that version of the character as they are occuring within the marvel omniverse.

So I don't know why you think only main storylines are canon, which is incorrect. The OP stated this is the Ghost Rider that defeated galactus, thus we are using that Ghost Rider's feats and anything in that Ghost Rider's mythos would be canon for this fight.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Pretty sure video game cut scenes are canon, as are the movies as they all take place in a designated marvel universe (dont have number on hand).

Also what if's, and alternate universes are also canon to that version of the character as they are occuring within the marvel omniverse.

So I don't know why you think only main storylines are canon, which is incorrect. The OP stated this is the Ghost Rider that defeated galactus, thus we are using that Ghost Rider's feats and anything in that Ghost Rider's mythos would be canon for this fight.

Yes, all of those examples are canon to that particular version of the character. They are not canon to the mainstream 616 Marvel Universe/DC Earth 1/2/3 characters that we usually go by.

So cartoon Ghost Rider's feat is canon to cartoon Ghost Rider, but not 616 Ghost Rider.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
By that logic, Superhero cameos in other Animated shows and comic books are apparently never canon. Superman never meets Batman by that logic. Anything Superman does in any of Batman's comic books don't count as feats by that logic.
It's not logic, it's a definition.

Appearances in other comic books are canon. If Superman appeared in a Batman comic, as long as it's within the comic DCU, then it's canon. Their appearances together in Justice League books, Superman/Batman books, etc are all canon. Superman and Batman in, say, the Justice League Unlimited cartoon, are not canon to the comic DC characters that we use here.

------------
All that said, cartoon Ghost Rider gets shitstomped by comic Odin (assuming comic, not stated otherwise) based on a long list of vastly superior feats, etc.

cartoon ghost rider's penance stare would defeat Odin imo

Originally posted by bbrem123
just curious and would like to see this

It's mostly shown when Zadkiel usurped Yahweh's power, though ill show you some other things as well, after that.

When Zadkiel conquers heaven, which leads to Asgard, hell, etc.. feeling the shock, from (GR v6 #32)

http://i.imgur.com/NOiCa9F.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/p7vUJ7c.jpg

Zadkiel is close to wielding the ultimate power in all creation (but he never reached to full power) -- a recap at the beginning of an issue:

http://i.imgur.com/EIOcpXc.jpg?1

Zadkiel as "God", the implication is pretty clear that he's a supreme being (Heaven's on Fire #5)


http://i.imgur.com/SNF2lNP.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/L95nmvG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nrXeVgr.jpg

Zadkiel never reached full power, which is why he got defeated in the end.

And well, there are a bunch of statements when God is called "all powerful", example:

http://i.imgur.com/FpVCjUp.jpg?1

.......it was pretty clear that Zadkiel was the supreme being, imo, but he never reached his full potential, unfortunately.


-------------

more over, back in the 70s, in a son of satan comic (which is very important to know, because that tells us it's associated with Yahweh/God), specifically in Marvel Spotlight v1 #17, we see a matrix upon which all the universes are structured, which was created by God:


http://i.imgur.com/w3AROml.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DGIV9gI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RPNJExC.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Vx2O9vT.jpg


.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
The EXPERIENCED Ghost Rider, not the amateur one.

Odin is at full power.

Who takes this?

gunjir wrecks house

Originally posted by operator616

And well, there are a bunch of statements when God is called "all powerful", example:

http://i.imgur.com/FpVCjUp.jpg?1

. how did he uprise over god? going by this scan he cant with the power of the GRs

^ he used the power of the GRs to conquer heaven (let me know if you want bio confirmations as well). When he achieved that, this automatically granted him the power of God. It's like he said in a scan which i already showed: "the longer i hold the throne the more powerful i become."

Odin Force Wrecks

Originally posted by Cogito
Yes, all of those examples are canon to that particular version of the character. They are not canon to the mainstream 616 Marvel Universe/DC Earth 1/2/3 characters that we usually go by.

So cartoon Ghost Rider's feat is canon to cartoon Ghost Rider, but not 616 Ghost Rider.


It's not logic, it's a definition.

Appearances in other comic books are canon. If Superman appeared in a Batman comic, as long as it's within the comic DCU, then it's canon. Their appearances together in Justice League books, Superman/Batman books, etc are all canon. Superman and Batman in, say, the Justice League Unlimited cartoon, are not canon to the comic DC characters that we use here.

------------
All that said, cartoon Ghost Rider gets shitstomped by comic Odin (assuming comic, not stated otherwise) based on a long list of vastly superior feats, etc. Just because it didn't happen in a comic book, doesn't mean it isn't
canon, if Batman can show up in a Superman Comic, or Superman can show up in a Batman Series, then Ghost Rider and Galactus can show up in a F4 Animated Series.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Just because it didn't happen in a comic book, doesn't mean it isn't
canon, if Batman can show up in a Superman Comic, or Superman can show up in a Batman Series, then Ghost Rider and Galactus can show up in a F4 Animated Series.

Ghost Rider and Galactus can show up in the F4 animated series, but those appearances aren't canon to their 616 comic counterparts.

That's just...the definition of canon. I'll argue about feat comparison all you want, but I'm not going to argue dictionary definitions.

wat

Cogito hit it perfectly on the head. Not sure what the confusion is over...?

Originally posted by Cogito
Ghost Rider and Galactus can show up in the F4 animated series, but those appearances aren't canon to their 616 comic counterparts.

That's just...the definition of canon. I'll argue about feat comparison all you want, but I'm not going to argue dictionary definitions.

Alright, I'll accept that, but it doesn't mean Ghost Rider couldn't do what he did to Galactus in his own comic/series.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Alright, I'll accept that, but it doesn't mean Ghost Rider couldn't do what he did to Galactus in his own comic/series.
It absolutely does though, since comic book Galactus doesn't even have a soul to begin with for the Rider to fry with his stare.

Odin in a stomp!

That Ghost Rider world is full of poetic over dramatizations in the hype department.
Yahweh whatever, falls below Skyfather imo ... perhaps a Skyfather, meh.

Anyway, Ms "Death" ... laughs off Ghost Rider's "Hell Fire" ...
... then let's em know:

She's "Beyond the control of Heaven or Hell," ... and,
she "can only destroy, and never be destroyed."

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17297350_Ghostrider1.jpg

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17297349_Ghost_Rider2.jpg

Originally posted by Epicurus
It absolutely does though, since comic book Galactus doesn't even have a soul to begin with for the Rider to fry with his stare.

Even if he did he's not evil, he's a force of necessity in the universe.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Odin in a stomp!

That Ghost Rider world is full of poetic over dramatizations in the hype department.
Yahweh whatever, falls below Skyfather imo ... perhaps a Skyfather, meh.

Anyway, Ms "Death" ... laughs off Ghost Rider's "Hell Fire" ...
... then let's em know:

She's "Beyond the control of Heaven or Hell," ... and,
she "can only destroy, and never be destroyed."

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17297350_Ghostrider1.jpg

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17297349_Ghost_Rider2.jpg

Apart from the fact that your scan is from a 1979 GR comic, while Yahweh became more significant in 2006/2007, you know.....when GR became the wrath of God; your scan doesn't prove anything.

But yes, let's rely on statements. Here's an Avengers issue, from the same time-period where your scans come from saying this (i cropped the panel since they're on separate pages):

http://i.imgur.com/C7JKsbu.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/aVGPyh4.jpg?1

So according to this, the monotheistic supreme deity of the Christian worship (Yahweh), is far above Odin.......no?

In any case, we have seen Yahweh depicted on panel, in howard the duck v2.......in a bar:

http://i.imgur.com/HekQHr8.jpg

Anyway, the next issue confirms that he's not the supreme being:

http://i.imgur.com/s5kFp6E.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/huRBus4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wpxrLZV.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/k5Qi9B3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4M0lfrA.jpg

Or a more accurate depiction of Yahweh: (in terms of power-levels) was in, as you know, the What if? issue, where it establishes him as skyfather-level

That's quite different from what GR comics show, it's not even debatable, imo.

Also, GR shows us that Yahweh is also Allah, along with every other "God" people worship. Meaning they end up worshiping the same God, in the end.

Originally posted by operator616

Apart from the fact that your scan is from a 1979 GR comic, while Yahweh became more significant in 2006/2007, you know.....when GR became the wrath of God; your scan doesn't prove anything.

But yes, let's rely on statements. Here's an Avengers issue, from the same time-period where your scans come from saying this (i cropped the panel since they're on separate pages):

http://i.imgur.com/C7JKsbu.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/aVGPyh4.jpg?1

So according to this, the monotheistic supreme deity of the Christian worship (Yahweh), is far above Odin.......no?
I wouldn't say that. But that aside, I wasn't dismissing your posts, which is why I didn't quote them.
I've always felt this way about the GR world, and I saw an opportunity to let it be known.

Back on topic.

That scan is Thor telling us his "asgardian" pedigree (gods) is dis-associated with christian gods.
Then Thor tells us that while Odin may be labelled "all-powerful" he doesn't claim "divine supremacy,"
while the beliefs in accordance with this church (I'm assuming) he (Thor)
realizes many view his existence as blasphemous. (other "gods like asgardians, like a "God of thunder"
instead of just what they (christian worshipers) believe is the supreme divinity. (Yahweh/christian god)
Originally posted by operator616

In any case, we have seen Yahweh depicted on panel, in howard the duck v2.......in a bar:

http://i.imgur.com/HekQHr8.jpg
... That was funny.
Originally posted by operator616

Anyway, the next issue confirms that he's not the supreme being:

http://i.imgur.com/s5kFp6E.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/huRBus4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wpxrLZV.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/k5Qi9B3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4M0lfrA.jpg

Or a more accurate depiction of Yahweh: (in terms of power-levels) was in, as you know, the What if? issue, where it establishes him as skyfather-level
That was entertaining, interesting and confusing. I agree with you, but imo the Skyfather tag fits more accurately than involvement with the "creation" of existence
which completely disrupts cosmological established continuity which supersedes these GR isolated claims.

It seems opr he equates Heaven/Hell with Asgard and said types, but then claims to have "supplied" the Multiverse.
He also tells us that the "creation" of the Multiverse/Universe is the culmination of a "corporation." (involving several parties)
Also, he doesn't explain what "supplied" means. So we don't know what he did exactly.

Good info, never seen those before. tbh though, I prefer to stick to what has actually occurred on panel.
We've both seen the true "creators" of the Universe/Multiverse in action doing it,
and this GR world has no relation other than these mind twisting statements imo.

Whoever says GR takes the All father is dead wrong..and has never lifted a GR comic in history and you proved it by saying GR beats Odin..

God Blast and Odin Force wrecks GR

Yahweh is God Almighty has the power to manipulate mystical energy on a scale rivaling other skyfathers like Odin and Zeus

"Recently, Yahweh was revealed as the true source of the Ghost Rider. Each Ghost Rider was a manifestation of Yahweh's divine power meant to combat evil on Earth. This power was stolen by the fallen angel Zadkiel who used it to conquer Heaven and usurp Yahweh's place as the ruler of creation. Eventually, the Ghost Riders were able to stop Zadkiel and Yahweh banished him to hell for all eternity."

So it seems Yawh the supplier of Ghost Rider's power, is the maker of the Marvel Megaverse/Omniverse, etc. However the actual creators are indeed the Marvel corporation, or I suppose Disney now.

The Creator which is Marvel contracted Yawh to make the Marvel Megaverse, they gave him the designs and he just followed them.

The other "universes/megaverses" he speaks of I interpret as being other companies such as DC, Image, ETC. Which he then explains that each of those "Universes" have their own "maker (Yawh/source/god etc"", but their true creator is the company that designed them.

Which if we take the date that this comic was printed, would make sense that during that period of time many comics companies were entering the market (both independent and incorporated, such as Keebler, nabisco, etc.). This would explain why he stated it has become rather crowded, due to the market in our world becoming saturated.

I'm standing behind my claim..Odin force would wreck GR..Just because GR has a portion of Yahwehs power..Odin force trumps that lesser power source..

If we need to get into deats of Odin Force..Here are few.

Assisted Thor in denting Captain America's virtually indestructible shield.
Odin, wielding it, created a galaxy and then destroyed it.
With The Odin Force, Thor takes two nuclear warheads out of his chest without injury.
Killed Captain America whilst destroying his shield.
Kills Wolverine while destroying him and his Adamantium bones.
Thor has used the Odin Force to cure a man of his terminal cancer.
Thor has used the Odin Force to stop time itself.
Odin used it to cut out the heart of a star, with which it was used to forge and empower the legendary hammer Mjolnir.
Odin used it to bring back to life both Thor and Brunnhilde.(Valkyrie)
By channeling the Odin Force into his sacred hammer Mjolnir, Thor decapitated the nigh-invincible Destroyer Armor with one strike.
Thor used the Odin Force to not only become the supreme ruler of Earth itself, but also eliminate all of its hero's and villains that opposed him.
Odin used it to transform the cursed Nibelling rings into the gigantic Oversword of Asgard.(now known as the Odinsword)
Thor used it to destroy the Blood Axe of Skurge the Executioner, stating that only the Odin Force was capable of doing so.
Thor used the Odin Force to restore not only the floating city of Asgard on Earth, but also restored the lives of all the Asgardians who were lost after Ragnarok.
Odin used it to create and empower Stormbreaker, the hammer of Beta Ray Bill.
Odin used it to create and empower the Uru mace Thunderstrike, as a gift to Eric Masterson for all his heroic efforts in Asgard's name.
Odin used it to trap Surtur within his own body, becoming a living prison for the fire Elemental.
Odin used it to save the life of Eric Masterson by merging his life force with that of Thor's.

^^ No matter the interpretation of the hyperbole, in the end, it's Hyperbole!

I've seen the creation of the Universe/Multiverse, heck even Omniverse On Panel,
and it had nothing to do with this character from the GR world.

These On Panel depictions have been corroborated/supported by Handbooks.

Yahweh created the universe and the Phoenix Force is the big bang. The horse shit is equal there.

TOAA and Yaweh seem one and the same to me.

Yaweh was speaking of Marvel as a literal corporation outside of the Marvel comics, Odin has never displayed or stated such a level of knowledge and understanding.

Personally I think it is very simple, the Corporation he speaks of is marvel and they are indeed the true creators. However Marvel (the writers and stockholders) designate a steward within marvel, this in turn is Yaweh/TOAA.

I have no problem with Yaweh/TOAA taking on any form, name, appearance that the stockholders of Marvel want them to. The Bar scene alone showed Yaweh can look however he wants, he is just the fictional steward of Marvel that the writers created.

Zadkiel absorbed all the power of Yaweh, that he knew of. Just because Zadkiel believed he had consumed all of Yaweh, doesn't mean he actually did.

Originally posted by Board Walker
TOAA and Yaweh seem one and the same to me.

Yaweh was speaking of Marvel as a literal corporation outside of the Marvel comics, Odin has never displayed or stated such a level of knowledge and understanding.
But ... She-Hulk, Dr Doom, Black Panther, Rick Jones have, (amongst others)
heck She-Hulk has killed TOAA on panel. BP has re-written his own story.

So this means silly 4th Wall garbage knowledge now means something?
(although, that's Not what was established On Panel,
that's just you're interpretation which I disagree with completely)

TOAA has absolutely nothing to do with this chump.
Originally posted by Board Walker

Personally I think it is very simple, the Corporation he speaks of is marvel and they are indeed the true creators. However Marvel (the writers and stockholders) designate a steward within marvel, this in turn is Yaweh/TOAA.

I have no problem with Yaweh/TOAA taking on any form, name, appearance that the stockholders of Marvel want them to. The Bar scene alone showed Yaweh can look however he wants, he is just the fictional steward of Marvel that the writers created.

Zadkiel absorbed all the power of Yaweh, that he knew of. Just because Zadkiel believed he had consumed all of Yaweh, doesn't mean he actually did.
Scans of Yahweh creating something?
Scans of Yahweh being a representative avatar of the Writers/Artists.
Scans of a re-telling showing us how Yahweh created (or "supplied" the universe/multiverse?
Scans of something indirect that tells us this hyperbole is plausibly true?

Actually ...

Scans of ... anything significant ... at ... all. (aside from verbal claims)

If this is cartoon Rider then this is in the wrong forum.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I wouldn't say that. But that aside, I wasn't dismissing your posts, which is why I didn't quote them.
I've always felt this way about the GR world, and I saw an opportunity to let it be known.

Back on topic.

That scan is Thor telling us his "asgardian" pedigree (gods) is dis-associated with christian gods.
Then Thor tells us that while Odin may be labelled "all-powerful" he doesn't claim "divine supremacy,"
while the beliefs in accordance with this church (I'm assuming) he (Thor)
realizes many view his existence as blasphemous. (other "gods like asgardians, like a "God of thunder"
instead of just what they (christian worshipers) believe is the supreme divinity. (Yahweh/christian god)



Yeah, it seem that i totally misread that. My bad.

Still though, i do recall other instances where Allah or Yahweh is stated to be the creator of the universe. Let me know if you want them posted. It'll take time to find, but eventually, i will, i assure you.

But basically my point is that, statements need showings to back them up.

Originally posted by Mr Master


That was entertaining, interesting and confusing. I agree with you, but imo the Skyfather tag fits more accurately than involvement with the "creation" of existence
which completely disrupts cosmological established continuity which supersedes these GR isolated claims.

It seems opr he equates Heaven/Hell with Asgard and said types, but then claims to have "supplied" the Multiverse.
He also tells us that the "creation" of the Multiverse/Universe is the culmination of a "corporation." (involving several parties)
Also, he doesn't explain what "supplied" means. So we don't know what he did exactly.

Good info, never seen those before. tbh though, I prefer to stick to what has actually occurred on panel.
We've both seen the true "creators" of the Universe/Multiverse in action doing it,
and this GR world has no relation other than these mind twisting statements imo.

Cosmological established continuity........? Id generally agree that "TOAA" is the one who created the omniverse, but we have seen a creator unheard of before, in a strange tales issue, for instance (setting aside the ones who're common knowledge), create all the universes (yes, plural) on panel.
So honestly speaking, i wouldn't be surprised if Yahweh was depicted to create the universe/multiverse on panel. "established continuity" isn't something all writers care for.

Also, "God" was referenced way before "The One Above All" concept was introduced or even referenced. So at one point, "God" (whoever that might be) and not TOAA (Writer/Artist) was the supreme being in Marvel, because TOAA concept wasn't introduced at the time.

I agree, though that wasn't the whole seen, i just provided a part of it to prove that Yahweh isn't the supreme being, while the whole issue centers around Yahweh and his explanation of creation. I can post everything if you want.


Originally posted by Board Walker
So it seems Yawh the supplier of Ghost Rider's power, is the maker of the Marvel Megaverse/Omniverse, etc.



That's not really the case, though.

It's actually stated in the Mighty Avengers: Most Wanted Files, that TOAA is the one who created the omniverse:

http://i.imgur.com/Z2oa4Xw.jpg?1

2006 bio:

http://i.imgur.com/ePgDxst.jpg?1

2005 Reed and Ben bios, "the creators" -- as Mr Master said earlier.

http://i.imgur.com/Yis5z3i.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/eTRW6i1.jpg?1

^ that was a reference to Fantastic Four #511 when they met "God"/"The One Above All" (confirmed by the FF ultimate guide and the official wiki as well, btw)

Odin Force wrecks GR back on OP

Originally posted by operator616
^ he used the power of the GRs to conquer heaven (let me know if you want bio confirmations as well). When he achieved that, this automatically granted him the power of God. It's like he said in a scan which i already showed: "the longer i hold the throne the more powerful i become." then who is yawah?

^ Not sure i follow.

Yahweh is "God", Zadkiel usurped the power of God.
Still though, as has been explained, Yahweh isn't regarded as supreme in the MU as a whole.

To clarify this point further:


Yahweh being the supreme deity is akin to how the elder gods are regarded in conan the barbarian comics, their power can literally destroy the entire multiverse and they're responsible for its safety (issue 199):

http://i.imgur.com/ErmiplU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/l0YV7lJ.jpg

(it's their power that did that ^)

Earlier in another story, it's heavily implied that they're the ones who are responsible for creating and shaping the universe itself (though in that story they were referred to as "Primal Gods" the handbook says that it was the elder gods, meaning the elder gods and primal gods are one and the same).


But, setting aside those depictions in Conan, the elder gods aren't that significant at all, they are nowhere near that level. I mean, Atum (who himself is a skyfather-level character) was slaughtering them all (meaning, regardless of who those 4 elder gods are in conan, it doesn't really matter) left and right, something which is confirmed more than once. The difference between those portrayals is as clear as day.

The exact same thing applies to Yahweh, he's supreme in the GR-related comics only, like the elder gods are in conan.

^^

Originally posted by bbrem123
just curious and would like to see this

No proof shall be found as its erroneous.

Originally posted by operator616
^ Not sure i follow.

Yahweh is "God", Zadkiel usurped the power of God.
Still though, as has been explained, Yahweh isn't regarded as supreme in the MU as a whole.

To clarify this point further:


Yahweh being the supreme deity is akin to how the elder gods are regarded in conan the barbarian comics, their power can literally destroy the entire multiverse and they're responsible for its safety (issue 199):

http://i.imgur.com/ErmiplU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/l0YV7lJ.jpg

(it's their power that did that ^)

Earlier in another story, it's heavily implied that they're the ones who are responsible for creating and shaping the universe itself (though in that story they were referred to as "Primal Gods" the handbook says that it was the elder gods, meaning the elder gods and primal gods are one and the same).


But, setting aside those depictions in Conan, the elder gods aren't that significant at all, they are nowhere near that level. I mean, Atum (who himself is a skyfather-level character) was slaughtering them all (meaning, regardless of who those 4 elder gods are in conan, it doesn't really matter) left and right, something which is confirmed more than once. The difference between those portrayals is as clear as day.

The exact same thing applies to Yahweh, he's supreme in the GR-related comics only, like the elder gods are in conan. gotcha I was just confused as to how Yahweh was losing his power to Zadkiel.

^ Yes, 3rd volume. The encounter is confirmed in the official handbook, though (from all-new OHOTMU #5):

http://i.imgur.com/4fuAs3C.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/krkUz0Y.jpg?1

^ Yes, although i read the entire series, and never have i encountered an instance which specifically referenced Yahweh. But we know it is, because we know they were basing off the Judeo-Christian theology.

Here's editorial confirmation:

http://i.imgur.com/hZxxKd4.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/PxZO34S.jpg?1

...................................................

You also gotta understand that they specifically didn't want to actually depict God on panel, physically. That's because different readers have different beliefs of what "God" is, and depicting him on panel may not match with the beliefs of certain readers. Stated in a letters page:

http://i.imgur.com/4SzEoEO.jpg?1

But yes, i do have proof that this "God" is the Judeo-Christian one.


Around that same time period, they did depict God (or Jesus). That's how we know it's associated with Jude-Christian God.

in GR v2 #9, a mysterious higher power appears:

http://i.imgur.com/xo9kl4u.jpg

Notice it refers to him as "a friend" (this is important, keep reading and you'll know why)

Now it wasn't specified that it was "God", but we know that they intended it to be so, because an editor said in a letters page (in the Marvel Spotlight title), that they did depict God in a recent issue (back then), of Ghost Rider's title:

http://i.imgur.com/FCzDmYa.jpg?1

"portraying God....we experimented a bit.......in GR"

Then in issue #19, they retconned it to being a trick of Satan's (this is mostly because Shooter was a scripting assistant for that particular issue)

http://i.imgur.com/nwv9z8j.jpg?1

The scan says that his "friend" (which is how God/Jesus was called) was a mere trick. I could support this further if "friend" is not enough for you, but i can tell you that it's confirmed beyond all doubt.

...................................................

That should prove the Judeo-Christian part of your question.

As for what the scan says: Are you unable to read the scans? because i can, and i could re-post them if needed. But yes, it does say that the primal matrix (which was created by God) is what the universes (plural) are structured upon. Meaning it does hold all the universes together. And later on in the 4th scan it says that the primal matrix is God's creation....."like all else", meaning that "God" is the creator of everything (that includes the earth too).

Although like i said, Yahweh is only considered supreme in the GR-related titles/comics (Marvel Spotlight being one of them). He's established to be skyfather-level. Not only in the Howard the Duck scans (which aren't complete, i can post the whole issue if needed), but there's also that What if? issue. Ill look that up later on.

Also, is there seriously a 5-day GR vs HoM Wanda, debate going on?

Originally posted by operator616
^ Yes, 3rd volume. The encounter is confirmed in the official handbook, though (from all-new OHOTMU #5):

http://i.imgur.com/4fuAs3C.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/krkUz0Y.jpg?1
lmao are you talking about that cadencev guy? or whatever his name is?

^......What? Im not sure what's that supposed to mean, or how is it related to what i said.....??

Originally posted by KidStranglehold
Thanks and I would like if you post the whole Howard the Duck series if you can. Yes I do know how the read the scans, the thing is that the Howard the Duck scans contradict the Marvel spotlight scans, because in the Howard the Duck scans it states that he is not the creator and that there are also other "suppliers".

Its just that some people are not starting to believe the Ghost Rider is above Odin due to the Judo-Christian God being the Ghost Riders power source, when the Howard the Duck scans indicate that he is just a skyfather level being.


Here's the entire Howard the Duck v3 #6, scene from start to finish:

http://i.imgur.com/UYi8n8u.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/kERPnXU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UZcWU1r.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/s5kFp6E.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/huRBus4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wpxrLZV.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/k5Qi9B3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4M0lfrA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/LvZ628N.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5QxE4B1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PUFD7dm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0cXR24W.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mThsoZj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yf0wzG0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1glhDlY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HHJHaLY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vAjYOhI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/BWJuuCT.jpg

I told you why they contradict each other. And i explained it in my very first post of this thread. That would be because Yahweh in his isolated GR-related appearances is actually considered the supreme being/all-powerful. Just look at the Zadkiel scans i posted. Although it should be noted that Zadkiel managed to usurp the power of God, so that alone should contradict his omnipotence. And we know for a fact that it wasn't "part of his plan" because he personally banished Zadkiel to Lucifer's hell at the end of Heaven's on Fire arc:

http://i.imgur.com/uBetMra.jpg

a 2011 handbook clarifies that God personally intervened:

http://i.imgur.com/4KlZwKp.jpg?1

Although that sitll doesn't take away that he's portrayed as being far more than a mere skyfather in GR-related titles. But like i said: put GR aside, and it's established that Yahweh is a skyfather.

-------------------------

here's further proof (which i already mentioned but got over-looked since no scans were posted) that Yahweh is a skyfather:

Originally posted by operator616

Or a more accurate depiction of Yahweh: (in terms of power-levels) was in, as you know, the What if? issue, where it establishes him as skyfather-level

So......Yahweh does appear in What if? v1 #32 (bottom right):

http://i.imgur.com/zoN2yEu.jpg?1

Now, he isn't specifically called Yahweh in the issue, but we know it is because Marvel intended it to be, it was stated in a Marvunapp (Marvel's official website) page:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/earthkorvacconquers.htm

Scroll down to the comments part, it says:

"bottom right image was meant to represent Yahweh (the Judeo-Christian God)......"

......................

btw, this What If reality is canon or at least considered an official alternate reality (unlike some others which aren't even acknowledged as being alternate realities by the writers).

Apart from the handbooks confirming it (like Korvac's/LT's):

http://i.imgur.com/9qjfhmt.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/Qt3lNpD.jpg?1

.....the reality re-appeared in a canon Quasar issue (Quasar #30):

http://i.imgur.com/nWRtfEV.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/m5CAm8E.jpg

Korvac about to use the UN and the watcher telling him not to...just like originally in the what if:

http://i.imgur.com/6huXOQE.jpg

----------------------------------

Marvel officially confirmed that Yahweh is part of the Council of Godheads:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/godhed.htm

See Membership right there at the beginning of the page, it outright lists Yahweh as being part of the council. If you scroll down to the Godheads by Pantheons, you'll notice Yahweh/Judeo-Christian God is listed as being #19.

So Yahweh is an established skyfather.......that's the confirmation right here.

We saw the true "God" creating reality with a pencil in Fantastic Four #511; the 2005 handbooks confirm that what FF met are "The Creators" (plural since there's more than one writer/artist), and Marvel's official website confirms that he is indeed "The One Above All". A later 2007 handbook outright says that TOAA was the one who created the omniverse, LT's bio says something similar. Fantastic Four: Ultimate Guide confirms that this "God" is the actual comic book artist.....doesn't get more clear (if you need all those scans let me know, coz that'll shut up anyone for good, although i already posted most of them in this thread).

Now, there is, in fact, several creators apart from TOAA featured on-panel, but it's generally accepted that TOAA is the true one (others are mostly limited to a specific story)

Originally posted by KidStranglehold

And yes the debate is very intense and I apologize for bothering you.

Nah, don't worry about it. Im just surprised because well, you know, HoM Wanda was omniversal-level. She's not as effective in a battle but more than enough to take on any GR.

And btw, even if Yahweh is supposedly above Odin, that's nowhere near enough to HoM Wanda's power source: the Life Force.

^ No problem.

Btw, i realized that i forgot to address an important point:

Yahweh being the creator of the Earth doesn't actually contradict his sky-father status. Because we know that Odin along with his brothers have been shown to create midgard/earth as well; that one was even depicted on panel (and confirmed several times), further supported by the handbooks and indexes (i have the relevant scans if needed).

So who created earth then? Yaweh or odin? is Yawheh more powerful then Odin, since he seems to know far more about the truth of Marvel (that it is a comic).

^ Ah see, Odin being the creator of the earth is only isolated in Thor-related comics (because it's entirely based on the Norse Mythology), just like Yahweh is considered supreme/Creator in the GR-related titles (he actually is supreme there) based on Judeo-Christian myths. And it's not only Yahweh and Odin, i could bring up many more "creators", that have actually created the universe (in some cases, the multiverse) on-panel.

Same thing with DC, i could bring multiple creation stories, by different characters.

TOAA is the one who's generally regarded as being the one true creator, in Marvel.

Originally posted by KidStranglehold
THANK YOU SO MUCH GOOD SIR!!! You don't know how much you have helped me and even indirectly helped me. I am in a debate in Comicvine right now. The thread is Scarlet Witch(house of M) vs Ghost Rider and this particular person thinks Ghost Rider can beat her when I have stated many times that House of M Wanda is above his level. He thinks just because Ghost Riders power source is "God" that the Ghost Rider is unbeatable. I keep telling him that "God" is actually Yahweh and that he is no more powerful than any other skyfathers like Odin.

You just indirectly ended a life time of Ghost Rider fan wanking on comicvine.

I know you can't wait to get back at em now and end the foolishness.

^ Yeah he could try, but his statement would be entirely based on the depictions Yahweh has in the GR comics.

And if we're going to do that, then let's take Elder Gods' most impressive portrayals (As they appear in Conan)........Conan the Barbarian #129 states that the elder gods help shape the universe on the forge of creation :

http://i.imgur.com/tCbZ7O0.jpg?1

We know that "a power" is a reference to the elder gods because they're the ones who forged the sword and the other cornerstones. While they don't appear in this particular story, it's actually heavily hinted that they're the ones who created the universe itself.

Though just so that everybody doesn't get the wrong idea: Elder gods are nowehere near that level on average, they're only portrayed like that in the Conan stories (much like Yahweh in Ghost Rider)

I'm sure operator already posted this, but Yahweh predates the universe... He predates the concept of Death itself, in fact:
http://imgur.com/I9W4clt

He didn't just start existing when Christians finally embraced him as the creator.

^ Yeah, im trying to figure that one out. But come to think of it....it doesn't actually contradict anything. Because every pantheon's creation story/portrayal is shown according to their respective mythologies. Just like Thor comics have portrayed Ginungagap (void before/beyond creation), just like in the myth.

I know you're aware of this, just posting those for the onlookers so they can understand how things work:

2 examples of Ginungagap being referenced:

Thor #493:

http://i.imgur.com/vNYI4Cx.jpg?1

Thor v2 #84:

http://i.imgur.com/8GyUkmH.jpg?1

Now, one may argue that this creation story is limited to the Asgardian dimension, but the fact that the creation story includes 616 midgard/earth (planet)........that right there, is a massive contradiction.

So, the conclusion is: Yahweh existing before creation is in-line with what is shown in myth, just like other pantheons have their own creation stories/portrayal based on myth without taking into account the established Marvel cosmology.

Originally posted by KidStranglehold
I actually thought elder Gods were that powerful. Guess I was wrong. But yeah he thinks Yahweh is older than Elder Gods, when actually...Elder Gods in Marvel predate Christianity as a whole. And then theres like I said Oshtur being the creator of Angels which refutes Yahweh being the supreme being even more.

Atum/Demogorge (a skyfather-level character) slaughtered innumerable elder gods. Even in their dimensions (each elder god has a dimension where its power increases), they have been beaten by no-more than skyfather level characters.

Ghost Rider is actually revealed to be an angel, and those spirits of vengeance were created by Yahweh. That was the big revelation that happened in that series. Ghost Rider v6 #18:

http://i.imgur.com/6Xfd7UW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xPaGsBK.jpg

"you are an angel"

That's how Zadkiel managed to crumble the gates of heaven later on in the series (by using God's own power......which were those of the spirits, hence why GR is "the wrath of God"

Although, him empowering/creating the angels doesn't actually prove that he's supreme at all.

Regarding Oshtur, it's more complicated than that. Basically, there are different factions of "angels"; Oshtur's are dissociated from the ones who serve Yahweh (these are the ones who are shown in the Conan stories, and confirmed in the handbooks). Ill get into the details when i have more time.....not right now.

Originally posted by operator616
^ Yeah, im trying to figure that one out. But come to think of it....it doesn't actually contradict anything. Because every pantheon's creation story/portrayal is shown according to their respective mythologies. Just like Thor comics have portrayed Ginungagap (void before/beyond creation), just like in the myth.

I know you're aware of this, just posting those for the onlookers so they can understand how things work:

2 examples of Ginungagap being referenced:

Thor #493:

http://i.imgur.com/vNYI4Cx.jpg?1

Thor v2 #84:

http://i.imgur.com/8GyUkmH.jpg?1

Now, one may argue that this creation story is limited to the Asgardian dimension, but the fact that the creation story includes 616 midgard/earth (planet)........that right there, is a massive contradiction.

So, the conclusion is: Yahweh existing before creation is in-line with what is shown in myth, just like other pantheons have their own creation stories/portrayal based on myth without taking into account the established Marvel cosmology.

Any way you look at it, Yahweh existed eons before the human race and Christianity sprang about... Which should be more than sufficient to answer Kid's question.

We know Yahweh existed before the universe itself was created. If the same cannot be said about the Elder Gods, then we know they are not older than Yahweh. If the same can be said, then there is no way of knowing for sure.

Originally posted by operator616

-------------

more over, back in the 70s, in a son of satan comic (which is very important to know, because that tells us it's associated with Yahweh/God), specifically in Marvel Spotlight v1 #17, we see a matrix upon which all the universes are structured, which was created by God:


http://i.imgur.com/w3AROml.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DGIV9gI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RPNJExC.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Vx2O9vT.jpg

.

As a Hellstorm fan (yes they exist), I'm not so sure i'd be that quick to say that a Son of Satan story automatically makes it Yahweh or Judo/Christian related. Yes Daimon became a priest to rebel against his father, but Satan was always portrayed as a hell lord with many aspects. Each version of the embodiment of evil was merely another face he wore.

I can't remember the exact issue ATM but in a Defenders story between 100 and 120 Satan tried to turn his son to his side, he failed but came close. Daimon would not spill innocent blood in Satan's name. When this happened Satan showed his son his MANY faces ( which IIRC included Mephisto).

Now It was later retconned that all hell lords had their own realm and that it shared barrier (something also about the dead god's weakening it) and that all hells were the in essence what ever the one going to hell believed them to be. But this was much later and the Marvel Spotlight appearances of Daimon were before the Defenders issue in question.

^ Correct, it was in issue #105. And yes, Mephisto was included. (now there's no doubt that they are independent entities, as you know). Although, i already proved that it was Judeo-Christian:

We know they were basing off the series of the Judeo-Christian beliefs:

http://i.imgur.com/hZxxKd4.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/PxZO34S.jpg?1

(they're on different pages, hence why i cropped them and posted 2 links), it outright says that

Those texts are from the Marvel Spotlight (pertaining the Son of Satan) letter pages.

Originally posted by Galan007
We know Yahweh existed before the universe itself was created. If the same cannot be said about the Elder Gods, then we know they are not older than Yahweh. If the same can be said, then there is no way of knowing for sure.

We have seen several times the origins of the Elder Gods.

Thor Annual #10: demiurge came first (after the planets came), and then came the elder gods:

http://i.imgur.com/lbtD6eT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TO4JvzA.jpg

Same thing told in Silver Surfer v3 Annual #2:

http://i.imgur.com/ATFPYcW.jpg

(there are more)

Although, those stories credit Demiurge for bringing forth life, in the Conan stories, it's stated that from the cornerstones, from which all life sprang:

http://i.imgur.com/ORdgEhU.jpg?1

The Cornerstones were created by the elder gods, so naturally, they should predate them.

That ^, plus the fact that they "shaped the universe at the forge of creation" (and they were never even hinted to do anything of the sort in any of the other titles) definitely indicates that their origins might be different in those stories (we never knew), but they were certainly depicted far more powerful than usual, their power was enough to destroy entire universeS.