Sauron vs Gothmog

KuRuPT Thanosi

Well at least you dropped the silly idea of Dragons being above balrogs or gothmog... Moving on to this..

The quotes you continue to post don't change what I'm saying at all. I've been very clear that Sauron is powerful but more like a politician/magician... Gothmog is the badass general in command. This is a vs fight.. not a battle of cunning and treachery. All the quotes you cited.. don't talk about his battle prowess or him leading armies or being the fierciest in battle... NOTHING like that. They even use words like cunning... servant...not what I said above. Sauron was most certainly better at practicing black magic.. and following the ways of Melkor and learning under him. I agree totally. But that doesn't make him the best on the battle field. That was left up to Gothmog. Which is the point here...

There wasn't a battle Sauron lead while Gothmog was around. By leading I mean.. leading the troops into battle and being on the front lines. In the Sil... the best are in the front lines... Sauron was never there when bid daddy Gothmog was around. That spot was reserved for the best of battle.. the high captain and General Gothmog. If this isn't true.. cite the battles Sauron physcially lead while gothmog was present. Good luck with that. I don't mean lead by being behind the scenes telllng them to go out and fight. The quote you cited just reinforces the idea that Sauron was second in command of his evil empire because he was the most learned in the ways of Melkor and black magic.. not the best in battle.. which is what we're talking about here.

This is pretty easy when it comes down to the basics.. and there is just no getting aroudn these facts....

1. Gothmog was the general.. he was put in charge of leading the armies into battle and protecting Melkor. You put the best in battle in charge and that was Gothmog NOT sauron when they were both around.

2. Gothmog has the better battle feats.. by a good margin. He's killed better people and it's nto even close. I can't even believe you listed the Numenorean King and Noldor king in the same breath with Feanor... Fingon or Etch.. that is a laughable stance. Please cite the battle feats of Gil-Galad and Elendil that can compare to the people I listed. They aren't even close. Elven King of the later ages weren't nearly as impressive or as powerful as the early ones. Their battle feats aren't even close. Gothmog killed the much better foes.

Also, please don't go on and on about how Gothmog killed them with help... THIS IS A BATTLE FIELD. There is stuff going on all around you. You act like Gothmog is the only person who had an army and help. Gothmog was also having to do battle with heaven and elves and god knows what all as well. So that all even out. That is part of the battle and minding your surroundings. Gothmog killed them and superior people at that.

3. Sauron was killed by much weaker foe than Gothmog was killed by. So Sauron was killed by a man... Gothmog by an high elven king who did so when he was about to die at th ehands of Gothmog.

Sauron is the most learned in the ways of Melkor and the most powerful Maia.. I agree with this. But Gothmog is the most powerful in battle between the two. This is evident in the position of battle and in their battle feats. Gothmog is the Hulk and Sauron Iron Man.... powerful but more wise and smart that the battle beast Hulk is.

Supra

I guess you did not see the latest movie..

And you have it the other way around. Sauron is like the black adam, Gothmog is just Gothmog.

Stealth Moose

Ares, solid post. Refresh me, where's the lightning feat from again?

Also, Sauron before the end of the Second Age could change form at will and is mentioned in the Silmarillion explicitly as the mightiest of the Maiar to follow Melkor in his evil.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Only that his battle feats don't measure up to Gothmog... nor was he leading any armies when Gothmog was around. By feats and battle status Gothmog is superior.. as far as sorcery or learning of the ways of Melkor obviously sauron is superior. However, this is a battle not a test of cunning or manipulation. Gothmog wins

Tzeentch

That Gothmog spent the majority of his time leading Morgoth's armies on the frontlines while Sauron stayed at home is pretty damning evidence in my mind who was the stronger fighter. Sauron is certainly the most cunning and insidious of Morgoth's servants, but he'd still get his ass beat in a 1v1.

Supra

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Only that his battle feats don't measure up to Gothmog... nor was he leading any armies when Gothmog was around. By feats and battle status Gothmog is superior.. as far as sorcery or learning of the ways of Melkor obviously sauron is superior. However, this is a battle not a test of cunning or manipulation. Gothmog wins

Did you even watch the beginning of LOTR? He was smashing people in droves..

Sauron wins..

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by Tzeentch
That Gothmog spent the majority of his time leading Morgoth's armies on the frontlines while Sauron stayed at home is pretty damning evidence in my mind who was the stronger fighter. Sauron is certainly the most cunning and insidious of Morgoth's servants, but he'd still get his ass beat in a 1v1.

Exactly my thoughts. That damn Moose just can't see it because of his hate for me.. Hate stemming from the badasery of Kenobi and Windu!!! smile

Supra

What is the size and weight of Sauron and the Size and weight of Gothmog?

What is the composition and makeup of Sauron and what is the composition and makeup of Gothmog?

Tzeentch

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Exactly my thoughts. That damn Moose just can't see it because of his hate for me.. Hate stemming from the badasery of Kenobi and Windu!!! smile

Janus is built for one purpose: to destroy the world of Men.

Supra

There is no way for Sauron to lose to a orc...Sauron is one of the most powerful creatures in LOTR..

His body and composition cannot be hurt by an orc..and he just wrecked Gandolf in the Desolation.

Sauron wins

ares834

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Ares, solid post. Refresh me, where's the lightning feat from again?

Silmarillion. It's when he is corrupting the people of Numenor.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Only that his battle feats don't measure up to Gothmog... nor was he leading any armies when Gothmog was around. By feats and battle status Gothmog is superior.. as far as sorcery or learning of the ways of Melkor obviously sauron is superior. However, this is a battle not a test of cunning or manipulation. Gothmog wins

Except, Gothmog doesn't have better feats. He had help every time he fought an Elven king. Sauron, however, didn't and yet he still defeated them.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
2. Gothmog has the better battle feats.. by a good margin. He's killed better people and it's nto even close. I can't even believe you listed the Numenorean King and Noldor king in the same breath with Feanor... Fingon or Etch.. that is a laughable stance. Please cite the battle feats of Gil-Galad and Elendil that can compare to the people I listed. They aren't even close. Elven King of the later ages weren't nearly as impressive or as powerful as the early ones. Their battle feats aren't even close. Gothmog killed the much better foes.

Uh, Gil-Galad is a First Age elf and would even have been High King of the Noldor in the First Age... Also, please cite battle feats for both Ecthelion and Fingon that put them well beyond the likes of Gil-Galad. As it is, I see no reason to assume Gil-Galad is vastly inferior to Fingon and no reason at all to assume he is inferior to Ecthelion.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Also, please don't go on and on about how Gothmog killed them with help... THIS IS A BATTLE FIELD. There is stuff going on all around you. You act like Gothmog is the only person who had an army and help. Gothmog was also having to do battle with heaven and elves and god knows what all as well. So that all even out.

Uh, no. When he struck down Feanor, Feanor "stood alone; but long he fought on". As for Fingon, he "stood alone with his guard dead about him". In both cases it was Feanor and Fingon that Gothmog fought and no other.

Sauron, meanwhile, defeated Finrod on his own and killed Elendil and Gil-Galad simultaneously.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
3. Sauron was killed by much weaker foe than Gothmog was killed by. So Sauron was killed by a man... Gothmog by an high elven king who did so when he was about to die at th ehands of Gothmog.

Sauron wasn't killed by a man. He was killed by a Noldor King and a Numenorian King. Both of whom were killed while they killed Sauron. (Isildur merely cut the ring of his corpse.)

Beyond that, the heroes of men are as great of warriors as the elven lords. Beren had the advantage over one of the Sons of Feanor and Tuor is implied to be an even more powerful warrior than Ecthelion (although this was in a very early version of the stories). And guys like Hurin and Turin are even better warriors.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
That Gothmog spent the majority of his time leading Morgoth's armies on the frontlines while Sauron stayed at home is pretty damning evidence in my mind who was the stronger fighter. Sauron is certainly the most cunning and insidious of Morgoth's servants, but he'd still get his ass beat in a 1v1.

Morogth also sat in his tower throughout the war. Yet, he is obviously superior to the likes of Gothmog (at least throughout the vast majority of it). So I'm unsure of how Sauron hardly ever leading battles (he does lead one that I am aware of) is really damning evidence in anyway. Beyond tha Sauron is mentioned several times to be "the greatest" and "the most terrible" of Morogth's servants. Seems pretty clear that Sauron is more powerful than Gothmog.

Stealth Moose

Hurin killed like 70 guys while utterly surrounded before being captured, IIRC. First and Second age Heroes of Men were very mighty.

Sauron was noted to have been developing monster mooks for the legions of Melkor and correct me if I'm wrong but contested with Luthien's magic, only to be overcome by Huan who could not be defeated except as ordained by prophecy.

Supra

Sauron will be unaffected by any spear, axe or even an ugly grin of Gothmog. Gothmog is a mortal that serves the master, one of the masters is Sauron which is part of the prime evil

Sauron wipes out creaters in droves in LOTR

Gandolf> Gothmog

Sauron>Gandolf

Sauron>Gandolf>Gothmog

Lord Lucien

Originally posted by Supra
Sauron will be unaffected by any spear, axe or even an ugly grin of Gothmog. Gothmog is a mortal that serves the master, one of the masters is Sauron which is part of the prime evil None of this makes any sense. And Morgoth got his foot lopped off by an Elven sword, so it's not like weapons can't hurt Ainur.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by ares834
Silmarillion. It's when he is corrupting the people of Numenor.

Except, Gothmog doesn't have better feats. He had help every time he fought an Elven king. Sauron, however, didn't and yet he still defeated them.

Uh, Gil-Galad is a First Age elf and would even have been High King of the Noldor in the First Age... Also, please cite battle feats for both Ecthelion and Fingon that put them well beyond the likes of Gil-Galad. As it is, I see no reason to assume Gil-Galad is vastly inferior to Fingon and no reason at all to assume he is inferior to Ecthelion.

Uh, no. When he struck down Feanor, Feanor "stood alone; but long he fought on". As for Fingon, he "stood alone with his guard dead about him". In both cases it was Feanor and Fingon that Gothmog fought and no other.

Sauron, meanwhile, defeated Finrod on his own and killed Elendil and Gil-Galad simultaneously.

Sauron wasn't killed by a man. He was killed by a Noldor King and a Numenorian King. Both of whom were killed while they killed Sauron. (Isildur merely cut the ring of his corpse.)

Beyond that, the heroes of men are as great of warriors as the elven lords. Beren had the advantage over one of the Sons of Feanor and Tuor is implied to be an even more powerful warrior than Ecthelion (although this was in a very early version of the stories). And guys like Hurin and Turin are even better warriors.

Morogth also sat in his tower throughout the war. Yet, he is obviously superior to the likes of Gothmog (at least throughout the vast majority of it). So I'm unsure of how Sauron hardly ever leading battles (he does lead one that I am aware of) is really damning evidence in anyway. Beyond tha Sauron is mentioned several times to be "the greatest" and "the most terrible" of Morogth's servants. Seems pretty clear that Sauron is more powerful than Gothmog.

Doesn't work that way Ares.. I asked for feats of Sauron kills you keep going on and on about and you turn around and ask me for feats. Sorry bud.. I'm still waiting on the feats of the people you listed.. I understand they don't have hardly any, and certainly none that can compete with the people I listed.. but that doesn't mean you can simply avoid the question

I'm curious... YOu don't think Elves and men were more powerful in the ages prior? It seems rather clear to me that both were more powerful and had more feats in the earlier ages.

So... you agree that Feanor is clearly superior to anybody Sauron has beaten.. So Gothmog has the best kill of either of the two. His other two killings I believe are clearly better than anybody listed but we'll get into that when you post the feats of the 2 I'm asking about. We also know Gothmog was the one leading the charge while Sauron stayed behind lock doors. If he was more powerful and formidable than gothmog he would be leading the charge.. only he wasn't. Gothmog was.

So we have better feats for Gothmog... better standing in battle than Sauron.. and we have one dying by a lesser foe.. Do you honestly believe Isildur is on the same level as Etch is? They aren't even close. Gothmog killed him as well.. Sauron didn't kill Isildur.. another big difference.

Nobody is disputing that Sauron is more learned in the ways of Melkor and maybe even the better practioner of Black Magic and the dark arts. Shit he's even a better politician and more cunning than Gothmog... but he's certainly not more formidable and better in a vs. matchup. Gothmog is a warrior.. Sauron isn't. It's really that simple.

Supra

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
None of this makes any sense. And Morgoth got his foot lopped off by an Elven sword, so it's not like weapons can't hurt Ainur.

Yes an Elven sword..little different then a mace..

Supra

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Doesn't work that way Ares.. I asked for feats of Sauron kills you keep going on and on about and you turn around and ask me for feats. Sorry bud.. I'm still waiting on the feats of the people you listed.. I understand they don't have hardly any, and certainly none that can compete with the people I listed.. but that doesn't mean you can simply avoid the question

I'm curious... YOu don't think Elves and men were more powerful in the ages prior? It seems rather clear to me that both were more powerful and had more feats in the earlier ages.

So... you agree that Feanor is clearly superior to anybody Sauron has beaten.. So Gothmog has the best kill of either of the two. His other two killings I believe are clearly better than anybody listed but we'll get into that when you post the feats of the 2 I'm asking about. We also know Gothmog was the one leading the charge while Sauron stayed behind lock doors. If he was more powerful and formidable than gothmog he would be leading the charge.. only he wasn't. Gothmog was.

So we have better feats for Gothmog... better standing in battle than Sauron.. and we have one dying by a lesser foe.. Do you honestly believe Isildur is on the same level as Etch is? They aren't even close. Gothmog killed him as well.. Sauron didn't kill Isildur.. another big difference.

Nobody is disputing that Sauron is more learned in the ways of Melkor and maybe even the better practioner of Black Magic and the dark arts. Shit he's even a better politician and more cunning than Gothmog... but he's certainly not more formidable and better in a vs. matchup. Gothmog is a warrior.. Sauron isn't. It's really that simple.

So when he's wiping people out by the hand full with the swing of his hand and killing everyone in multitude, what do you call that?

ares834

He also had his whole gang of Balrogs backing him up. Sauron has the most impressive solitary kill.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
If he was more powerful and formidable than gothmog he would be leading the charge.. only he wasn't. Gothmog was.

Not necessarily true. Initially, Morgoth was superior to both yet he does not lead the charge.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So we have better feats for Gothmog... better standing in battle than Sauron.. and we have one dying by a lesser foe.. Do you honestly believe Isildur is on the same level as Etch is? They aren't even close. Gothmog killed him as well.. Sauron didn't kill Isildur.. another big difference.

Are you dense or do you just bother to not read my posts? I said in my post, Isildur did not kill Sauron he "merely cut the ring of his corpse."

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Gothmog is a warrior.. Sauron isn't. It's really that simple.

By the same inane logic, Gothmog is superior to Melkor... Simply because Sauron stays in the back does not make him inferior in battle.

Supra

Originally posted by ares834
That's because there is no answer. Guys like Gil-Galad and Elendil's only real feat is fighting Sauron. But at the same time, Fingon's only real feat is battling Gothmog... My point is, none of these characters really have any feats to speak of.

Uh, where did I say otherwise. Gil-Galad, however, is a First Age elf and of the line of Kings. Logically, he would be a very great warrior.

laughing out loud

Stealth Moose

There needs to be a line drawn here between movie Sauron and book canon Sauron, Supra. Since we're talking about Silmarillion feats and characters here, using movie feats is inadmissable.

Also, Gothmog was not a man but a Maiar of the same order as Sauron. Sauron was simply a much better Maiar which is why the Balrogs became mortal and feral and Sauron retained much of his immortality and higher powers. It's like comparing Zeus to a Cyclops.

Supra

Stealth Moose

It's thought with his ring he could destroy the forces of Middle-Earth as of the trilogy. This includes the combined forces of Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan, Gandalf, Gondor, Rohan, Dale etc. There aren't any First Age elf armies and Numenoreans to keep him in check.

Supra

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It's thought with his ring he could destroy the forces of Middle-Earth as of the trilogy. This includes the combined forces of Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan, Gandalf, Gondor, Rohan, Dale etc. There aren't any First Age elf armies and Numenoreans to keep him in check.

What is Saurons approxoment height, weight and what is his body composition made of?

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
There needs to be a line drawn here between movie Sauron and book canon Sauron, Supra. Since we're talking about Silmarillion feats and characters here, using movie feats is inadmissable.

Also, Gothmog was not a man but a Maiar of the same order as Sauron. Sauron was simply a much better Maiar which is why the Balrogs became mortal and feral and Sauron retained much of his immortality and higher powers. It's like comparing Zeus to a Cyclops.

Which doesn't change the fact that Gothmog has the superior feats and wins under his belt. Doesn't change the fact that Gothmog was more formidable and lead the forces in battle while sauron was behind lock and key. Nobody is denying Sauron is the better sorcerer and more versed in deception.. cunning and the ways of Melkor. What is also crystal clear is that he isn't the warrior that Gothmog is.. if he was.. he'd be in charge of the forces and leading the charge as the greats did back then.. he wasn't and for good reason. When Gothmog was around Sauron took a back seat to him when it comes to the battles, and since this is a fight.. not a war of words or magic.. Gothmog wins.

Also... how did Gothmog and other Balrogs become "mortal" and Sauron didn't... explain to me how this happened and where this is stated?

Supra

@Kurp, you are a smart man, please answer..What is Saurons approxoment height, weight and what is his body composition made of?

KuRuPT Thanosi

He also had his whole gang of Balrogs backing him up. Sauron has the most impressive solitary kill.

Are you dense or do you just bother to not read my posts? I said in my post, Isildur did not kill Sauron he "merely cut the ring of his corpse."

By the same inane logic, Gothmog is superior to Melkor... Simply because Sauron stays in the back does not make him inferior in battle.

Actually this isn't true at all...

Fingon fought Glaurung when he first appeared... which alone is more than the featless wonders you keep talking about

Ecth.. also killed balrogs before he even met Gothmog.. again something greater than than people you mentioned. Shit, just defeating Gothmog alone is vastly superior to anything. So no, by feats Feanor... Ecth and Fingon are VASTLY superior to Sauron best victims.. of this there is no doubt.

I don't know how I could forget but I forgot the massive feat of getting Ungoliant to let loose of Melkor when she was in the process of devouring him. It was balrogs who were called and saved the day... Not Sauron.. That is a massive feat for the powers of balrogs to drive away Ungoliant.. who rivaled Melkor in power after devouring so much of the light. Shit he had Melkor helpless to do anything till the balrog saved the day.

Stealth Moose

Originally posted by Supra
What is Saurons approxoment height, weight and what is his body composition made of?

Nobody knows but that's irrelevant because for much of his life he was a shapechanger or a disembodied spirit. Morgoth was a giant in his final form, but he was not always so. Tolkien didn't make character sheets for his creations.

Supra

Originally posted by Supra
@Kurp, you are a smart man, please answer..What is Saurons approxoment height, weight and what is his body composition made of?

This proves my point and you all are in concession till you answer this..

His makeup proves he cannot be hurt by this unruley orc.

Concession Accepted

Sauron Wins due to unmatched durability and strength and size.

Sauron is a part of the prime evil as a minion of fallen angel is part of diablo..

Melkor created Orcs

Sauron has power similar to Melkor

Sauron has the Ring

Melkor>Sauron>(Orc) Gothmog

Stealth Moose

KT, you clearly have not read the books. Your repeated assertions in the face of direct quotes and refutations is mind-boggling. Balrogs were slain, and the one in Moria is the last of his kind. In the sacking of Gondolin, many balrogs died.

Sauron, however, was not the same until he crafted the One Ring. And even then he survived the flood of Numenor and escaped into the East to reform. Balrogs could not do this.

KuRuPT Thanosi

There are no assertions I repeated.. BTW.. I'm still waiting on how and when Gothmog became mortal?

How is Feanor.. Ecth and Fingo being above the peole Sauron beaten and assertion? This is a fact.. and fact supported by battle feats.

It's also not a assertion that Gothmog was in charge of battle and the one leading the charge for Melkor.. If Sauron was more powerful.. he would be leading the way. He wasn't. Gothmog was.. and the reason why is because he's more formidable and the better warrior. This isn't an assertion it's a fact. I listed some of the battles gothmog has lead.. Suaron never lead any when Gothmog was around. There is a reason for this.

So which assertions are you referring to? I'm honestly starting to wonder if you've ever read any of the books.

NemeBro

Supra thinks Gothmog is an orc. His opinion is irrelevant.

I dunno if this has been pointed out, but I just started reading the Silmarillion, and here is something it says:

"Faced by this rebellion, of appalling folly and blasphemy, and also real peril (since the Numenoreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself) the Valar lay down their delegated power and appeal to God, and receive the power and permission to deal with the situation; the old world is broken and changed."

Depending on how you take this, Sauron's power could be being compared to a Valar.

Oh, and quote is from a letter Tolkien sent to Milton Waldman, who asked for a summary of his setting.

ares834

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Actually this isn't true at all...

Fingon fought Glaurung when he first appeared... which alone is more than the featless wonders you keep talking about

laughing out loud

ares834

Originally posted by NemeBro
Supra thinks Gothmog is an orc. His opinion is irrelevant.

I dunno if this has been pointed out, but I just started reading the Silmarillion, and here is something it says:

"Faced by this rebellion, of appalling folly and blasphemy, and also real peril (since the Numenoreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself) the Valar lay down their delegated power and appeal to God, and receive the power and permission to deal with the situation; the old world is broken and changed."

Depending on how you take this, Sauron's power could be being compared to a Valar.

More likely its simply the might of the Numenoreans. I doubt even Sauron was comparable to even the least of the Valar.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
There are no assertions I repeated.. BTW.. I'm still waiting on how and when Gothmog became mortal?

What? He was killed in Gondolin and was unable to reform... Of course he was mortal. Presumably, his impotent spirit still lingers but Gothmog is dead and gone.

NemeBro

Originally posted by ares834
More likely its simply the might of the Numenoreans. I doubt even Sauron was comparable to even the least of the Valar. Only Sauron's direction is explicitly pinpointed as the deciding factor.

ares834

Originally posted by NemeBro
Only Sauron's direction is explicitly pinpointed as the deciding factor.

Sure, but that's because Sauron's direction was to attack Valinor. Sauron himself had absolutely no intention to go to Valinor. He was simply trying to kill off the Numenorians.

NemeBro

Actually you're right, I forgot that Sauron stayed behind on Numenor like a lazy fat ****.

Supra

Originally posted by Supra
What is Saurons approxoment height, weight and what is his body composition made of?

No one can answer this simple question..

Sauron wins

Lord Lucien

Originally posted by Supra
No one can answer this simple question..

Sauron wins It's baffling how inside-out your ability to reason is.

Supra

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It's baffling how inside-out your ability to reason is.

I am reasoning GD! You guys won't reason with me!

No one wants to admit his make up is vastly superior to Gothmog and infact Gothmog serves Sauron...

Stealth Moose

His make up is Loreal, but that isn't the point here. Gothmog is explicitly on a lower tier, and his only victories are achieved with legions of followers. Sauron has been known to throw down solo and come out looking much better in comparison.

Supra

Lord Lucien

Love to have a thought bubble over that guy's head.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
His make up is Loreal, but that isn't the point here. Gothmog is explicitly on a lower tier, and his only victories are achieved with legions of followers. Sauron has been known to throw down solo and come out looking much better in comparison.

Not close to true as I've been showing. Gothmog has the more impressive victories BY FAR and it's not even that close. Shit besting feanor is alone better than anything Sauron has ever beaten. Clearly you're not applying your logic and reason as you do in the star wars forum. Feats trump all, and in this case, Gothmog has superior feats.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by ares834
laughing out loud

Your deliberate (or perhaps ignorant) attempts at twisting events is laughable.

"Then Fingon prince of Hithlum rode against him with archers on horseback, and hemmed him round with a ring of swift riders; and Glaurung could not endure their darts, being not yet come to his full armoury, and he fled back to Angband, and came not forth again for many years."

Not only did Fingon do this with a bunch of archers but it was against a young Glaurung who was not yet fully developed and vulnerable.

He killed "Balrogs"... At this time they weren't maiar but creatures created by Melko and were far less than those of later versions. Using this story (which is supposedly Tolkien's earliest ME story) is a very weak argument. Hell, to put things in perspective, in these stories dragons are machines and 'Sauron' was a cat possessed by a demon. Nor was Ecthelion even the greatest lord in Gondolin in these early versions.

Only if you have no clue what you are talking about or are twisting 'facts' to suit your argument.

First the Balrogs were not "called" as you say. They heard Morgoth scream and then came in their numbers. And Ungoliant, even at this time, is certainly not the equal of Melkor in his prime or even Manwe, Tulkas, or likely any of the other Valar.

It is a good feat none the less, but it was a whole group of Balrogs not one. Using this as a feat for Gothmog is ridiculous.

Point is.. he FOUGHT Glaurung and drove him back with help or without is not relevant. It's again, another feat that the people you listed DON'T HAVE. You just can't get around this point can you Ares. Fingon was leading the charge and drove him back with the aid of some archers. Still impressive none the less, even more so, when you see how pitiful the feats of your guys are.

Again, you can say the balrogs weren't this and weren't that but AGAIN... it's still a feat that trumps what you've put forward. Not only that, but slaying gothmog is exponentially better than having no feats.. SO....

Now it's time to stop being obtuse and dodging the facts here...

Name me the feats of the people you listed as Sauron besting in battle. I asked you before and you say... I CAN'T NAME THEM BECUAE THEY DON'T HAVE ANY. I wanna make this point again because clearly people like Moose are forgetting how we judge fights here. They are based on FEATS. Now.... the feats of Fingon.. Ecth and feanor... If you can't name comparable feats.. then concede the people I named are superior victims.. it's really that simple.

Ecth also because a very powerful High Elven lord in later writings. That is who he is now known by. Him killing of the balrogs and gothmog is very veyr impressive. Vastly mroe impressive than no feat wonders Sauron has killed.

You can try and say the Ungoliant thing isn't as impressive as I think and it wasn't that powerful but that just isn't so. You say it wasn't as powerful as Melkor... Odd since it caprtured Melkor was in the process of devouring him before the balrogs showed up. In order to capture somebody and be able to eat them and destroy them.. you have to be really powerful, and one might say, just as powerufl if not more so in order to be able to do that. If Melkor was more powerful why couldn't he do anything about it? Let's say he's more powerful by some degree.. it still took somebody uber powerful to be able to do tha tto him. yet, who came to his rescue? Certainly not that feeble politician look behind closed doors. WE know he wasn't the one to call when a battle victory was needed. The balrogs were called upon and they answered the call and freed Melkor. Where was Sauron? Yet again nowhere to be found when the going got tough. Just like in all the major battles where both were present... Gothmog was the one leading the charge and in charge not Sauron. He barely poked his head out when it was time for war.

You or moose said the Balrogs became mortal... WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN... POST THE REFERENCE TO THIS. I remember NOTHIGN about this is the Sil.. nothing at all. Balrogs are Maia.. just like Gandalf and Sauron. Just like them their spirts can and probably did remain. Shit, a balrog killed Gandalf but he was SENT BACK. he wasn't able to come back on his own he was sent back because only his spirit lived. I see no reason to believe the spirts of the balrogs are still aroudn just the same. So if you have any info otherwise.. post where they became mortal as some have claimed.

ares834

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Point is.. he FOUGHT Glaurung and drove him back with help or without is not relevant. It's again, another feat that the people you listed DON'T HAVE. You just can't get around this point can you Ares. Fingon was leading the charge and drove him back with the aid of some archers. Still impressive none the less, even more so, when you see how pitiful the feats of your guys are.

Nope. Anyone with half a brain can see it's a non-feat especially for sword play.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Again, you can say the balrogs weren't this and weren't that but AGAIN... it's still a feat that trumps what you've put forward. Not only that, but slaying gothmog is exponentially better than having no feats.. SO....

Nope. Once again this is the earliest version of the legendarium. Using it to give feats is nonsensical. Even funnier is your attempt to use slaying Gothmog as a great feat for Ecthelion to make Gothmog defeating Ecthlion an impressive feat.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Now it's time to stop being obtuse and dodging the facts here...

What facts? You haven't posted any. I've had to correct you numerous times and posted passages from Tolkien's works.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Name me the feats of the people you listed as Sauron besting in battle. I asked you before and you say... I CAN'T NAME THEM BECUAE THEY DON'T HAVE ANY. I wanna make this point again because clearly people like Moose are forgetting how we judge fights here. They are based on FEATS. Now.... the feats of Fingon.. Ecth and feanor... If you can't name comparable feats.. then concede the people I named are superior victims.. it's really that simple.

You also have no feats for Fingon or Ecthelion other than fighting Gothmog... laughing out loud

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You can try and say the Ungoliant thing isn't as impressive as I think and it wasn't that powerful but that just isn't so. You say it wasn't as powerful as Melkor... Odd since it caprtured Melkor was in the process of devouring him before the balrogs showed up.

Perhaps ypu should read my post, eh? I said "not the equal of Melkor in his prime" and she isn't. She defeated a vastly weaker Melkor who had already dispersed much of his power into Arda.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The balrogs were called upon and they answered the call and freed Melkor. Where was Sauron? Yet again nowhere to be found when the going got tough. Just like in all the major battles where both were present... Gothmog was the one leading the charge and in charge not Sauron. He barely poked his head out when it was time for war.

Once again, so what?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You or moose said the Balrogs became mortal... WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN... POST THE REFERENCE TO THIS. I remember NOTHIGN about this is the Sil.. nothing at all. Balrogs are Maia.. just like Gandalf and Sauron. Just like them their spirts can and probably did remain. Shit, a balrog killed Gandalf but he was SENT BACK. he wasn't able to come back on his own he was sent back because only his spirit lived. I see no reason to believe the spirts of the balrogs are still aroudn just the same. So if you have any info otherwise.. post where they became mortal as some have claimed.

Uh, Gandalf was a very special case. Anyway, the Ainur's bodies were like "raiment" they could change it or remove it and put another one on. However, Morgoth and some of his servants lost this ability. So, like I said earlier, the Balrog's spirits likely remained but they no longer were capable of making bodies. Hence they were for all intents and purposes mortal.

Stealth Moose

Also KT, how can you use all of Gothmog's aided battles as worthwhile and maintain a straight face? The guy has fought almost no one alone and the one person he fought had already been fatally wounded and he still lost.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by ares834
Nope. Anyone with half a brain can see it's a non-feat especially for sword play.

Nope. Once again this is the earliest version of the legendarium. Using it to give feats is nonsensical. Even funnier is your attempt to use slaying Gothmog as a great feat for Ecthelion to make Gothmog defeating Ecthlion an impressive feat.

What facts? You haven't posted any. I've had to correct you numerous times and posted passages from Tolkien's works.

You also have no feats for Fingon or Ecthelion other than fighting Gothmog... laughing out loud

Perhaps ypu should read my post, eh? I said "not the equal of Melkor in his prime" and she isn't. She defeated a vastly weaker Melkor who had already dispersed much of his power into Arda.

Once again, so what?

Uh, Gandalf was a very special case. Anyway, the Ainur's bodies were like "raiment" they could change it or remove it and put another one on. However, Morgoth and some of his servants lost this ability. So, like I said earlier, the Balrog's spirits likely remained but they no longer were capable of making bodies. Hence they were for all intents and purposes mortal.

Do you believe 1 + 1 = 3?

You surely would agree that Gothmog is a formidable foe and a powerful one.. being a Maia and the high captain of Melkor's army.. Clearly he's is powerful. So how is ecth killing him not more impressive? What's more.. how on earth can you laugh at that.. all the while.. knowing the people you listed have NO feats to their name.. let alone killing the leader of Melkor's army? That is exponentially better than any of the featless wonders you have named for Sauron.

you keep talking about the balrogs weren't this or that.. they were still powerful creatures and AGAIN more feats than the people you've named. Shit, he could've killed a couple of simple wolves and that would be more than what you have on your side. Even though wolves are powerful.. we at least have battle feats to count.. in your case you have diddly squat. Further, you do know that Balrogs were rectonned into being maia and powerful creatures. They want from being thousands of them to only being 8 or 9 of them ever. So with the recton ecth killing a few of them is BEASTLY.

NOW I'M ASKING YOU THIS SIMPLE QUESTION...

1. Is driving off Glaurung a feat at all?

if so, then the feat count for Fingon is 1 to 0 for your guys right?

2. Is killing balrogs a feat?

if so, then the feat count is at 1 - 0 for Ecth

3. Is killing the high captain Gothmog a feat?

If so, then that is 2 - 0 in the feat count when comparing it to your guys.

I would even go in feanor who alone is probably one of.. if not the greatest elven lord of all time. He shits all over any of thepeole you named.

You can say this person had help and that person had help for this feat... but what we're still left with is these guys have feats.. the guys you named DON'T. There is just no getting aroudn this fact. I'd rather have feats with help or circumstances than no feats at all. What's worse you're arguing blinding and using fallacy after fallacy to justify your position. You know the guys have no feats yet you go.. so.. we know they are kings of their house.. thus they must be powerful. Odd.. because the same is true for all the guys I listed except they DO have feats and were from a more powerful age.

So? Well so it proves that yet again when the going got tough for Melkor.. the balrogs were called upon.. not Sauron. His pansy ass was locked up and hiding from battle yet again. It's almost absurd to claim somebody is more powerful than the guy actually put in charge of the battles and leading them to victory.. while the person you claim is more powerful is no place to be found and not put in charge.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Also KT, how can you use all of Gothmog's aided battles as worthwhile and maintain a straight face? The guy has fought almost no one alone and the one person he fought had already been fatally wounded and he still lost.

Odd you would say that when the people Ares named have NO FEATS to their name. yet with a straight face he's arguing how awesome it was for Sauron to beat them. yet, you have the nerve to ask me how I keep a straight face? The irony. I'm arguing using feats.. whether with help or without.. they still have feats.. the guys sauron has beaten have NONE. You do understand some is grearter than none right?

Stealth Moose

I'll ask you simply so as to avoid addling your narrow mind:

Name one person Gothmog killed in single combat without the aid of his balrogs and without that individual having been already wounded?

If you can answer that then you might actually have a leg to stand on. Nevermind that Tolkien, the creator of the entire mythos, ranked Sauron higher. No, just ignore that.

ares834

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You surely would agree that Gothmog is a formidable foe and a powerful one.. being a Maia and the high captain of Melkor's army.. Clearly he's is powerful. So how is ecth killing him not more impressive? What's more.. how on earth can you laugh at that.. all the while.. knowing the people you listed have NO feats to their name.. let alone killing the leader of Melkor's army? That is exponentially better than any of the featless wonders you have named for Sauron.

Then Elendil and Gil-Galad defeating Sauron is a feat as well...

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
you keep talking about the balrogs weren't this or that.. they were still powerful creatures and AGAIN more feats than the people you've named. Shit, he could've killed a couple of simple wolves and that would be more than what you have on your side. Even though wolves are powerful.. we at least have battle feats to count.. in your case you have diddly squat. Further, you do know that Balrogs were rectonned into being maia and powerful creatures. They want from being thousands of them to only being 8 or 9 of them ever. So with the recton ecth killing a few of them is BEASTLY.

My point is whatever they do in that story is useless. For all intents and purposes, the stories in TBoLT are non-canon.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
1. Is driving off Glaurung a feat at all?

if so, then the feat count for Fingon is 1 to 0 for your guys right?

It's not a feat as we have no clue what he did. For all we know who could simply have led the other elves and not even used a bow.

So nope, not a feat at all.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
2. Is killing balrogs a feat?

if so, then the feat count is at 1 - 0 for Ecth

Not if it happens in "non-canon" stories like all those in BoLT.

So nope, not a feat at all.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
3. Is killing the high captain Gothmog a feat?

If so, then that is 2 - 0 in the feat count when comparing it to your guys.

Then Gil-Galad and Elendil have the feat of killing Sauron...

So 1-1 in the feat count.

It's also absurd. To prove Gothmog's foes are superior to Sauron's one of the 'feats' you use is defeating Gothmog... Circular logic FTW!

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I would even go in feanor who alone is probably one of.. if not the greatest elven lord of all time. He shits all over any of thepeole you named.

I'd agree. Sadly Gothmog had a whole gang of Balrogs and an army of Orcs helping him. So yeah, I'm not all that impressed.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You can say this person had help and that person had help for this feat... but what we're still left with is these guys have feats.. the guys you named DON'T. There is just no getting aroudn this fact. I'd rather have feats with help or circumstances than no feats at all. What's worse you're arguing blinding and using fallacy after fallacy to justify your position. You know the guys have no feats yet you go.. so.. we know they are kings of their house.. thus they must be powerful. Odd.. because the same is true for all the guys I listed except they DO have feats and were from a more powerful age.

facepalm

Which is why I put Fingon at around the same level of Gil-Galad and Finrod. Because the all are from the line of Kings. Accurately comparing these characters is nigh impossible with their virtually non-existent feats (you haven't posted any feats yet) and requires looking toward their heritage and statements.

Also Finrod and Gil-Galad are both elves of the First Age.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So? Well so it proves that yet again when the going got tough for Melkor.. the balrogs were called upon.. not Sauron. His pansy ass was locked up and hiding from battle yet again.

laughing out loud

I've already said this and even posted the passage, the Balrgos were not called upon! They came when they heard Morgoth scream.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It's almost absurd to claim somebody is more powerful than the guy actually put in charge of the battles and leading them to victory.. while the person you claim is more powerful is no place to be found and not put in charge.

This claim is asinine, yet you cling to it desperately. Morgoth also was not at the forefront leading the armies yet he is Gothmog's superior.

So what do we have:

1. Sauron outranks Gothmog
2. They have killed/defeated comparable foes but Sauron has done so on his own.
3. Sauron is touted as "the greatest" and "the most terrible" of Morgoth's servants

Seems pretty clear to anyone with half a brain that Sauron is more powerful.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by ares834
Then Elendil and Gil-Galad defeating Sauron is a feat as well...

My point is whatever they do in that story is useless. For all intents and purposes, the stories in TBoLT are non-canon.

It's not a feat as we have no clue what he did. For all we know who could simply have led the other elves and not even used a bow.

So nope, not a feat at all.

Not if it happens in "non-canon" stories like all those in BoLT.

So nope, not a feat at all.

Then Gil-Galad and Elendil have the feat of killing Sauron...

So 1-1 in the feat count.

It's also absurd. To prove Gothmog's foes are superior to Sauron's one of the 'feats' you use is defeating Gothmog... Circular logic FTW!

I'd agree. Sadly Gothmog had a whole gang of Balrogs and an army of Orcs helping him. So yeah, I'm not all that impressed.

facepalm

Which is why I put Fingon at around the same level of Gil-Galad and Finrod. Because the all are from the line of Kings. Accurately comparing these characters is nigh impossible with their virtually non-existent feats (you haven't posted any feats yet) and requires looking toward their heritage and statements.

Also Finrod and Gil-Galad are both elves of the First Age.

laughing out loud

I've already said this and even posted the passage, the Balrgos were not called upon! They came when they heard Morgoth scream.

This claim is asinine, yet you cling to it desperately. Morgoth also was not at the forefront leading the armies yet he is Gothmog's superior.

So what do we have:

1. Sauron outranks Gothmog
2. They have killed/defeated comparable foes but Sauron has done so on his own.
3. Sauron is touted as "the greatest" and "the most terrible" of Morgoth's servants

Seems pretty clear to anyone with half a brain that Sauron is more powerful.

I'm curious if you even know the story and have it right... Tell me how Elendil and Gil-Galad killed Sauron? I'm curious if you even have the story right.

Furhter, I won't even get into Huan killing Sauron at another point.. as once again he was easily beaten in battle by a wolf. A powerful wolf but he was still beaten.

Those stories aren't non canon at all. Post the source or Chris saying it's non canon. Until then, they are canon and greater than anything your guys have done.

Difference is... Melkor IS the leader and the one everybody is fighting for and trying to save on his side.. NOT SAURON. So it stands to reason that Melkor doesn't want to be killed so he lets other fight and be in charge of protecting him. Sauron isn't under that same vein. He isn't the leader.. Melkor is.. and thus he doesn't get to fall under thad same excuse. If you have ANY reference to Melkor not wanting Sauron to fight in battles to protect him POST IT. If not, that is just your speculation on the matter. What we DO KNOW is that Gothmog was in charge of the affaris of war and leading the battles NOT Sauron. If you have any reference to him being protected by Melkor and not wanting him to fight post it.

Also, I would like a reference to where Sauron was a higher rank than Gothmog.. I've read from various sources that they have the same rank but Gothmog is in charge of the battles being the high captain. Sauron being the no. 1 wizard and learned of the dark ways doesn't make him outrank gothmog when it comes to battle and formidability.

They haven't defeated comparable foes.. Feanor is beyond.. WELL beyond anythign from your side. So no, they aren't comparable. at all. I don't know why you keep saying they killed Sauron and then say he killed them.. which is why I'm asking for your clarification on the story in question above. Which is it cause I think you have it backwards. So again, no they aren't comparable. Feanor and Ecth are above anybody you named and easily

KuRuPT Thanosi

Also can I see any reference to Sauron being called a Captain or General or any such description. I've only seen him referred to as a Lieutenant.. which is below a Captain in militzry rank.. which as we know is exactly how things played out. Gothmog was leading the charge and killing elven lords.. Sauron was hiding out and waiting for the dust to clear.

ares834

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'm curious if you even know the story and have it right... Tell me how Elendil and Gil-Galad killed Sauron? I'm curious if you even have the story right.

Elendil and Gil-Galad kill Sauron but, in the process, are themselves slain.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Furhter, I won't even get into Huan killing Sauron at another point.. as once again he was easily beaten in battle by a wolf. A powerful wolf but he was still beaten.

Good. Because Saron was not killed by Huan. He was, however, defeated by Huan and Luthien.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Those stories aren't non canon at all. Post the source or Chris saying it's non canon. Until then, they are canon and greater than anything your guys have done.

I'm using common sense here. The other stories were compltely rewritten. Balrogs and Dragons were completely revamped. Hell, ever the elves were drastically changed. Ultimately, the source you are using is horribly outdated.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Difference is... Melkor IS the leader and the one everybody is fighting for and trying to save on his side.. NOT SAURON. So it stands to reason that Melkor doesn't want to be killed so he lets other fight and be in charge of protecting him. Sauron isn't under that same vein. He isn't the leader.. Melkor is.. and thus he doesn't get to fall under thad same excuse. If you have ANY reference to Melkor not wanting Sauron to fight in battles to protect him POST IT. If not, that is just your speculation on the matter. What we DO KNOW is that Gothmog was in charge of the affaris of war and leading the battles NOT Sauron. If you have any reference to him being protected by Melkor and not wanting him to fight post it.

And once again, so what?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Also, I would like a reference to where Sauron was a higher rank than Gothmog.. I've read from various sources that they have the same rank but Gothmog is in charge of the battles being the high captain. Sauron being the no. 1 wizard and learned of the dark ways doesn't make him outrank gothmog when it comes to battle and formidability.

I posted it earlier. When Melkor wasn't around Sauron, not Gothmog, was put in charge of the war.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
They haven't defeated comparable foes.. Feanor is beyond.. WELL beyond anythign from your side. So no, they aren't comparable. at all. I don't know why you keep saying they killed Sauron and then say he killed them.. which is why I'm asking for your clarification on the story in question above. Which is it cause I think you have it backwards. So again, no they aren't comparable. Feanor and Ecth are above anybody you named and easily

Feanor is. But once again he did it with an army of orcs and a gang of Balrogs. Not really impressive.

And Ecthlion's 'feats' are hilariously outdated.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by ares834
Elendil and Gil-Galad kill Sauron but, in the process, are themselves slain.

Good. Because Saron was not killed by Huan. He was, however, defeated by Huan and Luthien.

I'm using common sense here. The other stories were compltely rewritten. Balrogs and Dragons were completely revamped. Hell, ever the elves were drastically changed. Ultimately, the source you are using is horribly outdated.

And once again, so what?

I posted it earlier. When Melkor wasn't around Sauron, not Gothmog, was put in charge of the war.

Feanor is. But once again he did it with an army of orcs and a gang of Balrogs. Not really impressive.

And Ecthlion's 'feats' are hilariously outdated.

I'm still waiting for something impressive by sauron.. I mean really.. getting killed by an elven king and another king isn't really impressive. Big whoop.. he also killed them.. not impressive. I'd hoped you come up with something I didn't know about Sauron and his impressive battle feats.. sadly.. just as I thought.. they don't exist.

That was just one time he was killed... He was killed the time you mentioned... also killed by Huan... also killed by a great flood that wiped out most numoreans... finally sent back by frodo and golum. Just because his spirt is able to come back.. doesn't mean him getting shit on over and over again is impressive. Shit, a maiar in Gandalf couldn't beat a weaker Balrog than gothmog for days and days.. This was a weaker balrog than Gothmog and we know Maiar are above any man or elves who ahve killed Sauron.

Okay good they are canon then still despite you thinking they shouldn't be. You just need to treat them as a recton. They went from being thousands of them early on.. to being very few of them. So when Ecth stood against them... it was damn impressive.

So what? So what that Sauron was never seen when Morgoth needed them? You're right hat is just par for the course for somebody with such battle feats as Sauron. When the going go tough Sauron wasn't called upon in battle or to rescue Morgoth.. Gothmog and the balrogs did that job. You're right though... just another exactly of Sauron not being a great warrior.

Actually he wasn't in charge.. he was in charge as a president is in charge.. he oversaw things in a general sense.. but Gothmog was in charge of the army. I posted and you have yet to refute it.. Gothmog was called the HIGH CAPTAIN of angband.. Sauron only called a lieutenant of Angband. As we know... Captain outranks Lieutenant.

What we know is.. Gothmog's battle feats are superior to Sauron.. Gothmog has died less than Sauron and by a greater foe at that. Shit, gothmog outranks Sauron where morgoth had a fortress which gothmog was in charge of defending it and Morgoth. All this points to Gothmog being the superior warrior and Sauron the superior politician.

ares834

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'm still waiting for something impressive by sauron.. I mean really.. getting killed by an elven king and another king isn't really impressive. Big whoop.. he also killed them.. not impressive. I'd hoped you come up with something I didn't know about Sauron and his impressive battle feats.. sadly.. just as I thought.. they don't exist.

As "non-existent" as Gothmog's...

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That was just one time he was killed... He was killed the time you mentioned... also killed by Huan... also killed by a great flood that wiped out most numoreans... finally sent back by frodo and golum. Just because his spirt is able to come back.. doesn't mean him getting shit on over and over again is impressive.

He wasn't killed by Huan. Had you read the Silmarillion you would know this.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Shit, a maiar in Gandalf couldn't beat a weaker Balrog than gothmog for days and days.. This was a weaker balrog than Gothmog and we know Maiar are above any man or elves who ahve killed Sauron.

By this same logic Durin's Bane is more powerful than Gothmog. Anyway, Gandalf the White straight up says Sauron is more powerful than him and they do contend in a battle of wills in which Sauron is superior.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Okay good they are canon then still despite you thinking they shouldn't be. You just need to treat them as a recton. They went from being thousands of them early on.. to being very few of them. So when Ecth stood against them... it was damn impressive.

lol

How are they canon? They are from an entirely outdated part of the legendarium. As best they are ambiguously canon. (Ironically, Ecthelion isn't even the most powerful elf in the Fall of Gondolin, rather Rog is.)

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So what? So what that Sauron was never seen when Morgoth needed them? You're right hat is just par for the course for somebody with such battle feats as Sauron. When the going go tough Sauron wasn't called upon in battle or to rescue Morgoth.. Gothmog and the balrogs did that job. You're right though... just another exactly of Sauron not being a great warrior.

Or Morgoth has better things to do than Sauron. And as I've said several times in this "debate" the Balrogs weren't called to save Morgoth.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Actually he wasn't in charge.. he was in charge as a president is in charge.. he oversaw things in a general sense.. but Gothmog was in charge of the army. I posted and you have yet to refute it.. Gothmog was called the HIGH CAPTAIN of angband.. Sauron only called a lieutenant of Angband. As we know... Captain outranks Lieutenant.

He was in charge of the war. Hence he outranked Gothmog. Also real world ranks=/=fantasy ranks.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi What we know is.. Gothmog's battle feats are superior to Sauron.. Gothmog has died less than Sauron and by a greater foe at that. Shit, gothmog outranks Sauron where morgoth had a fortress which gothmog was in charge of defending it and Morgoth. All this points to Gothmog being the superior warrior and Sauron the superior politician.

Nope. You haven't provided any canon evidence for any of your claims. He does not have superior "battle feats" nor is it ever stated he defended Angband.

Supra

From death to life and this still wages? Sauron Wins, as Stealth said he's made of Loreal and this is far superior to gothmogs make up.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by ares834
As "non-existent" as Gothmog's...

He wasn't killed by Huan. Had you read the Silmarillion you would know this.

By this same logic Durin's Bane is more powerful than Gothmog. Anyway, Gandalf the White straight up says Sauron is more powerful than him and they do contend in a battle of wills in which Sauron is superior.

lol

How are they canon? They are from an entirely outdated part of the legendarium. As best they are ambiguously canon. (Ironically, Ecthelion isn't even the most powerful elf in the Fall of Gondolin, rather Rog is.)

Or Morgoth has better things to do than Sauron. And as I've said several times in this "debate" the Balrogs weren't called to save Morgoth.

He was in charge of the war. Hence he outranked Gothmog. Also real world ranks=/=fantasy ranks.

Nope. You haven't provided any canon evidence for any of your claims. He does not have superior "battle feats" nor is it ever stated he defended Angband.

Only Gothmog's are more impressive and extensive. As much as you hate this fact.. doesn't mean it didn't happen. Let me know when you have ANYTHING impressive for Sauron compared to Gothmog. One is built for battle the other politics.. this is a vs. thread not an election.

You keep on holding on to the idea that just because Sauron was able to comeback from being killed that this means he wasn't killed. Nobody is talking about perma kill here we're talking about being beaten in battle. Sauron has been beaten and owned by Huan... Elendil and Gil-Galad... the great flood... Shit Golum owned him with ease. That is a piss poor record compared to Gothmog... Who killed probably the most powerful Elven Lord ever in Feanor... killed Ecth.. who again is above anybody Sauron has beaten.. and fingon is about equal to those you listed. Still though.. the clear edge on victories goes to Gothmog.

Good I'm glad you agree it's canon and you have no authority to say it's not. Balrogs of that story were rectonned thus making the Ecth feat even more impressive and shits all over anything Sauron has done.

Remind me when Sauron beat Sauron the WHITE in battle.

Youi can say whatever you want.. the point is The Balrogs stop Morgoth from dying from an uber powerful creature. It wasn' Sauron or morgoth himself was unable to do anything.. but the balrogs could and did. Just another thing exhibiting what Balrogs do.. they kick ass.. not hide in a fortress till the dust clears while they practice their magic.

Huh? Do you have any evidence Tolkien didn't know the ranking system of the military and were just using these titles with no clue what they meant. If you have ANY evidence that he didn't intend for them to follow what they normally mean then post it.. if not you have no leg to stand on and they mean just what they appear to mean. gothmog was a CAPTAIN... Sauron was a Lieutenant of angband. We all know which rank is higher and who was in charge of defending Morgoth and Angband.

Stealth Moose

'Golum owned him'? The **** reality are you living in?

Also, you avoided my earlier question like it burns and stings.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Buddy... If all it took was a weakling like Golum to destroy the ring to vanquish him forever and he could do nothing about it in his own backyard.. yeah that is pretty piss poor.

I avoided nothing kid. Tell me.. which rank is higher Captain or Lieutenant?

Next question.. who's is the most powerful person Sauron killed in battle and didn't end up dying himself? I know you don't know much but I'll ask the question anyways.

Gothmogs feats shit all over Sauron's.. it's not even close to competitive. When you understand the characters in question then you can speak up mooosie

ares834

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Buddy... If all it took was a weakling like Golum to destroy the ring to vanquish him forever and he could do nothing about it in his own backyard.. yeah that is pretty piss poor.

facepalm

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Next question.. who's is the most powerful person Sauron killed in battle and didn't end up dying himself? I know you don't know much but I'll ask the question anyways.

Who's the most powerful person Gotmog killed in battle on his own and didn't end up dying himself?

I'll wait.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Gothmogs feats shit all over Sauron's.. it's not even close to competitive. When you understand the characters in question then you can speak up mooosie

I wouldn't insult Moose. He isn't the one who is repeatedly saying incorrect "facts".

KuRuPT Thanosi

So Ares when did Sauron defeat Gandalf the white in battle?

You mean facts like your claim that books military rankings don't equal real life rankings... I'm STILL waiting on the source for that theory of yours. Unless you have some evidence that either Tolkien didn't understand the rankings in question or they didn't intend for them to be the same.. the rankings stand as common knowledge and how he intended them to be. Thus Gothmog as a Captain of Angband is ranked AHEAD of Lieutenant Sauron. If you have a source disputing the validity of this post it. If not the rankings stand.

You mean facts like how you forgot to mention that Gil-Galad and E also died during their fight with Sauron.

Facts like how you said said Sauron wasn't killed those times I mentioned when he certainly was. Just beause the spirit lives and comes back doesn't mean they weren't killed and defeated. When Sentry reforms after MM kills him.. doesn't mean he wasn't killed and defeated. He was.. he just reformed. Same thign with Huan and Sauron.. he was defeated and relatively easily at that. Shit, Suaron couldn't stop a little weakling from dispersing his spirit forever in his own backyard with his forces all around. Pitiful.

You say I was wrong when I said he called out to them.. when in fact that could very well be what happened. I beleive the passage says... he screams out in pain and the balrogs come... He could've screamed help balrogs he could've screamed out in such a way that the balrogs knew he was calling them specifically. The point is, they came and owned somebody Melkor couldn't and Sauron certainly couldn't. NO surprise there cause we know who they warriors are and who Melkor trusted to get the job done in battle. The Balrogs not the politician Sauron.

You can try and hold onto the fact that Gothmog had help with Feanor.. but the fact remains IT WAS A BATTLE. Feanor aslo had help and people were fighting all around them. It was up to feanor to navigate sucha battlefield and not put himself in such a position to have to take on multiple balrogs. Gothmog managed the battlefield to do so and he won. He struck down Feanor himself and dealt the kiling blow to somebody exponentionally above ANYBODY Sauron has ever beaten. Shit Sauron can't beat anybody worth half a crap without dying himself. Ask yourself this... Is it better to kill the best Elf ever with help in a raging battle going on all around you.. or kill mcuh weaker elven/men kings and you yourself die... I'll take beating feanor any which way to also dying like that.

ares834

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So Ares when did Sauron defeat Gandalf the white in battle?

I never said such a thing. I mentioned a battle of wills.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You mean facts like your claim that books military rankings don't equal real life rankings... I'm STILL waiting on the source for that theory of yours. Unless you have some evidence that either Tolkien didn't understand the rankings in question or they didn't intend for them to be the same.. the rankings stand as common knowledge and how he intended them to be. Thus Gothmog as a Captain of Angband is ranked AHEAD of Lieutenant Sauron. If you have a source disputing the validity of this post it. If not the rankings stand.

How about you prove that LotR ranks are the same as American ranks. You were the one who brought it up initially. Heck, "High Captain" isn't even a real military rank.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You mean facts like how you forgot to mention that Gil-Galad and E also died during their fight with Sauron.

Another lie/incorrect fact.

When I brought it up the first time I said Sauron killed them....

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Facts like how you said said Sauron wasn't killed those times I mentioned when he certainly was. Just beause the spirit lives and comes back doesn't mean they weren't killed and defeated. When Sentry reforms after MM kills him.. doesn't mean he wasn't killed and defeated. He was.. he just reformed. Same thign with Huan and Sauron.. he was defeated and relatively easily at that. Shit, Suaron couldn't stop a little weakling from dispersing his spirit forever in his own backyard with his forces all around. Pitiful.

Another lie.

I never said Sauron wasn't killed those times you mentioned. I said he wasn't killed by Huan. And if you read the Silmarillion you would know he wasnt.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You say I was wrong when I said he called out to them.. when in fact that could very well be what happened. I beleive the passage says... he screams out in pain and the balrogs come... He could've screamed help balrogs he could've screamed out in such a way that the balrogs knew he was calling them specifically. The point is, they came and owned somebody Melkor couldn't and Sauron certainly couldn't. NO surprise there cause we know who they warriors are and who Melkor trusted to get the job done in battle. The Balrogs not the politician Sauron.

lol

A fanon theory nothing more. In the Silmarillion or related writings nothing implies he specifically called the Balrogs.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You can try and hold onto the fact that Gothmog had help with Feanor.. but the fact remains IT WAS A BATTLE. Feanor aslo had help and people were fighting all around them. It was up to feanor to navigate sucha battlefield and not put himself in such a position to have to take on multiple balrogs. Gothmog managed the battlefield to do so and he won. He struck down Feanor himself and dealt the kiling blow to somebody exponentionally above ANYBODY Sauron has ever beaten. Shit Sauron can't beat anybody worth half a crap without dying himself. Ask yourself this... Is it better to kill the best Elf ever with help in a raging battle going on all around you.. or kill mcuh weaker elven/men kings and you yourself die... I'll take beating feanor any which way to also dying like that.

Nope. I already posted the quote from the Annuals here. Feanor "stood alone" and "long he fought on" against the Balrogs. There wasn't a raging battle going on for all that long. Rather Feanor, alone, battled against a group of Balrogs and an army of Orcs.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Who cares about a battle of wiills.. we're talking about a battle here... A weaker balrog tested Gandalf to his limits and they both ended up dying. Galdalf is above Gil-Galad and E. who killed Sauron in battle. Seems par for the course with Sauron compared to Balrogs

I don't need to prove anything.. it's you that needs to prove these ranking don't apply. Further, in which countries is a Lieutenant ranked ahead of a captain? Seriously.. can you grasp at anymore straws here?

Exactly my point but FAILED to mention that they also killed him... That was a bit of important info now wasn't it?

Was Sauron defeated in battle by Huan? Since you claimed to have read the story... how did Huan win and what happened to Sauron?

It says he screamed out in pain and the balrogs came... It doesn't say he did or didn't call them specifically. HOwever, it's certainly possible that the screams were meant for the balrogs to hear specifically so they could come to his aid. Afterall, that IS hwo came and nobody else. Further, Melkor couldn't even stop what was going to happen to him and he was going to be devoured.. yet the balrogs could.. they must be pretty damn powerful if Melkor couldn't even do what they could. Yet, we also know Sauron little weak ass was no where to be found when he was needed in battle... AGAIN.

I'm starting to think you don't even know the scene in question... are you saying feanor had no help at all and he confronted them all by himself with not a single other elf.. beats maiar or anybody else around?

ares834

Which is why I also said Gandalf straight up says Sauron is more powerful than him... "I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still."

Except, the rank "High Captain" does not exist in the real world... Anyway, Sauron was left in charge when Morgoth left not Gothmog. That's a very clear indication that Sauron is number 2.

I mentioned it right after in the quote and it is fairly common knowledge.

WTF? When I corrected you, I admitted that Sauron was defeated by Huan and Luthien.

You said he called for them. Which is an entirely unsupported position.

I posted the very quote in this thread... Perhaps you should read it.

KuRuPT Thanosi

That proves little to nothing... Sauron is a Maiar and Gandalf also says Saurman is the most powerful of his kind. So that would include Sauron as well. Point is, Gandalf said this and later took down Saruman. So him making statements like this means next to nothing. Battle feats are what matters.

Sauron was left in charge of Melkor's affairs in a overall political sense because he was his puppet. His protege' so to speak. That doesn't make him superior in battle. Captain does exist.. and is simply a reference to being the highest captain.. Point is.. Captain always outranks Lieutenant in pretty much any military ranks. So we know Gothmog was a CAPTAIN.. and Sauron a Lieutenant. It's really that simple.

No you mentioned it later when I called you out on it and your recollection of the battle. Nice try though

Of course he was defeated and beaten easily. shit, that was just one of many times he was defeated. Par for the course for Sauron.

All it says is he screamed out in pain... it says nothing about what he screamed out exactly.. thus my position is just as valid as yours. Besides it doesn't matter if he called for them or not.. what does matter is we know when push came to shove who was better in battle and who Melkor relied on in battle.. it was the balrogs not Sauron. Sauron was held up in the fortress to practice dark magic and carry on for Melkor.. that doesn't make him the best in battle. Which of course we'd know since EVERYBODY and their MOTHER has beaten Sauron in battle. You'd think the many defeats he's had would amke this point crystal clear to you. But for some reason it hasn't.

I'm asking again.. so are you claiming that it wasn't a battle at all.. and it was Feanor alone who was battling everybody and he had no aid what so ever around him. I don't care who took on the balrogs alone.. I'm asking you if this was a battle or not

ares834

When did he ever say Saruman was more powerful than him when he was Gandalf the White? And statements are just as valid, specifically since these character hardly have any quantifiable "battle feats".

We know Sauron was left in charge of the war. That's even simpler. Sauron was second in command.

That's a blatant lie. You did no such thing. In fact, you seemed to be implying that Isildur slew Sauron. Heck, why don't you post a quote where you "called" me out.

Beaten easily? Do you have any clue what you are talking about? Huan was cowering in fear from Sauron until Luthein dazed Sauron with the enchantment on her cloak at which time Huan sprang... And he most certainly wan't slain like you said earlier. Before you debate something, it's useful to have knowledge of the material.

No it's not. You have absolutely no basis for your claim.

For a short time Feanor has some elves. But the other elves quickly died and then Feanor, alone, fought against the Balrogs and Orcs for a long time. Just par for the course for Gothmog who can't beat anyone without help. The one time he tries to do something alone he dies. Poor guy.

KuRuPT Thanosi

In the fellowship of the ring he make said statement. Plus in the hobbit... he's clearly subserviant to Saruman and his wishes. Point is, Gandalf made such a statement about Saruman and yet still bested him. Where did he quote you're referring to come from.. are you sure he wasn't referring to the WK.. saying the black rider was still more powerful. I remember him saying that about the WK not Sauron.

you have ONE statement and could you post when that was and where... I thnk that was after Gothmog was already dead and thus it doesn't matter to our convo. What we do know is that when Gothmog and Sauron were both around... Gothmog was the Captain and Sauron the Lieutenant. What we also know is that Gothmog was in charge of the battles and leading them... NOT Sauron. Post any battle which Sauron was in charge of the forces and leading them when Gothmog was around... You won't find it because Gothmog was the one doing the leading. Sauron was in the fortress under lock and key.. if he did enter the mix Melkor surely knew he would die since he's died pretty much everytime he's fought somebody. Of course he'd want to protect his feeble protege

You didn't mention them also killing Sauron which you admitted. My very next post asks if you even know the battle you're talking about and what happened. AT which point.. yes you did clarify that all died. Which was my point.. your original satement left very relavent facts off the table.. no doubt on purpose.

He was beaten easily when Huan attacked which is the point and what I said.. I never said he wasn't afraid or any such thing.. but when Huan attacked Sauron was dealt with easily.

YOu have no basis for yours either.

Which is exactly my point.. IT WAS A BATTLE.. Gothmog used superior tactics to get rid of the other elves and isolate Feanor.. That isn't something to downgrade the feat.. that is EXACTLY what a smart tactician would do. Point is... Gothmog landed the killing and fatal blow that nobody else could. Doesn't matter if he had help... so did Feanor when the battle started.. just cause they mostly died and the balrogs didn't isn't gothmog problem or fault.

Out fighting Feanor and isolating him to deal the deal blow to the greatest elf ever is superior to ANYTHING Sauron has EVER done in his history. IN fact, Sauron hasn't beaten anybody of note without dying himself. Shit, he's lucky to do that.. most times he's drowned or beaten and can't even take out his foe. Sad sad Sauron.

Supra

Sauron would curb stomp him, I cant believe this is even a battle..

Its Spite against Gothmog at this point

Sauron has the ring and wrecks his nasty face apart.

Spite against Gothmog.

ares834

So when he was Gandalf the Gray he claims to be inferior... Yeah, that's true. And no, he was most certainly talking about Sauron not the WK.

Nope. It was well before the Battle of Gondolin and Gothmog's death. Also, I looked into it and I doubt Tolkien is using "Lieutenant" seems to be this variety. IE, Sauron is Morgoth's "second" and when Morogth leaves he takes charge. Which is exactly what happens.

Nope. Another lie. By the time you were asking me if I knew what went down (that's on page 3) I had already posted the passage (which I did on page 1).

Another lie. Post where it is mentioned that he was "easily beaten".

I'm using common sense. You claimed he shouted for his Balrogs but that is never stated or even hinted at. All the text says is he gave a great cry.

You have no clue what you are talking about. Sure, Gothmog may have dealt the final blow (Feanor was already wounded many times previously) but, the fact remains, Gothmog did not deal with Feanor alone he had help. Using you "logic", random Orc 252 who helped in the slaying of Feanor was more powerful than Sauron.

BTW, I already showed that Sauron defeated Finrod who is most certainly of note.

Lord Lucien

I don't know whether to admire or admonish you for arguing against KT. That you have the stomach for it...

Supra

Sauron has the ring and wrecks him as usual

Stealth Moose

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I don't know whether to admire or admonish you for arguing against KT. That you have the stomach for it...

He's impervious to reason, including direct refuting sources. He should work for the North Korean news agency.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by ares834
So when he was Gandalf the Gray he claims to be inferior... Yeah, that's true. And no, he was most certainly talking about Sauron not the WK.

Nope. It was well before the Battle of Gondolin and Gothmog's death. Also, I looked into it and I doubt Tolkien is using "Lieutenant" seems to be this variety. IE, Sauron is Morgoth's "second" and when Morogth leaves he takes charge. Which is exactly what happens.

Nope. Another lie. By the time you were asking me if I knew what went down (that's on page 3) I had already posted the passage (which I did on page 1).

Another lie. Post where it is mentioned that he was "easily beaten".

I'm using common sense. You claimed he shouted for his Balrogs but that is never stated or even hinted at. All the text says is he gave a great cry.

You have no clue what you are talking about. Sure, Gothmog may have dealt the final blow (Feanor was already wounded many times previously) but, the fact remains, Gothmog did not deal with Feanor alone he had help. Using you "logic", random Orc 252 who helped in the slaying of Feanor was more powerful than Sauron.

BTW, I already showed that Sauron defeated Finrod who is most certainly of note.

I'm curious if even know what the difference between Gandalf the white and the grey is.. I'm starting to think you don't. Point is, Gandalf said he was inferior to Saruman and yet defeated him... saying you're inferior to somebody isn't he be all end all. Sauron has been outright killed by vastly inferior people to Gothmog.. well shit.. gothmog died only once... Sauron has been killed so many times he's probably even lost count. Yet you expect me to believe he's superior to gothmog lol. How does getting your ass kicked so many times show superiority is beyond me.

It doesn't matter as you corrected your quote after I called you on it. Whether you did or didn't.. doesn't change the fact that Sauron couldn't even kill those people inferior to the people on GOthmog list without dying himself. Pitiful.

What he we is he let out a cry... ever heard the saying a cry for help? Obviously you have. SO why couldn't it be thet he cried out for the balrogs to come help him?

Wrong... that isn't how he's using it since it says Sauron is the Lieutenant of angband and gothmog the Captain... Captain in any military rank I'm aware of is above Lieu. No way around that fact buddy.

You're the one with no clue... There was a BATTLE GOING ON.. Gothmog manuevered Feanor in a position where he could be killed and that is EXACTLY what happened. There wree many people fighting at the start.. gothmog took out feanor help... and still maintained his... You act like this takes away from Gothmog killing Feanor.. it doesn't. That is the goal of a battle.. to outwit and use superior tactics to gain an advantage.. that is exactly what Gothmog did to feanor. SOrry buddy.. Gothmog killing feanor is greater than antyhing Sauron has done in his entire history.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
He's impervious to reason, including direct refuting sources. He should work for the North Korean news agency.

You mean besides bringing my own facts to the table that aren't refured and canon? This debate was over before it begun because Sauron has shit for battle feats in comparison to gothmog. Shit his military rank is shit next to gothmog. Shit, he's never seen leading any armies when gothmog was around.. even when the going got tough and melkor was dying.. who was called... balrogs not his pansy lieutenant sauron. Sauron is a politician.. gothmog is a warrior. It was a no contest from the jump. However, you not knowing the facts let alone understanding them is no surprise... after all you thought Morgoth came before melkor... doesn't get more assbackwards than that.

ares834

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I don't know whether to admire or admonish you for arguing against KT. That you have the stomach for it...

Yep, looking at his recent reply, I'm done. He lies, twists facts, and generally just has no clue what he is talking about.

Stealth Moose

Originally posted by ares834
Yep, looking at his recent reply, I'm done. He lies, twists facts, and generally just has no clue what he is talking about.

Exactly. Just ignore him. Let him writhe in his own insecurity.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by ares834
Yep, looking at his recent reply, I'm done. He lies, twists facts, and generally just has no clue what he is talking about.

Lies.. and twists... do tell.. what did I twist or lie about again?

You mean like how you tried to say Sauron killed them but foget to mention he was also killed. Then when I called you on it.. you said oohhh yeah he was also killed but it was common knowledge so there was no need to say anything.. only it wasn't common knowledge as the movie doesn't show this and that is what most people have seen.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Exactly. Just ignore him. Let him writhe in his own insecurity.

ohhh the irony coming from you

NemeBro

Gothmog was killed by a helmet spike.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Sauron has died more times than Moosie has changed his diaper by himself... Not as many times as you'd think using that analogy... but he's still died numerous times... by people inferior to who kiled Gothmog and who Gothmog has beaten.

NemeBro

When Sauron dies he comes back.

Gothmog got killed by a helmet and water, lolwut.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Gothmog as Ares admits most likely didn't die.. his spirit still lived.. just as Sauron spirit lived.. difference is.. Sauron was still able to take a physical form again.. while Balrogs couldn't. That doesn't account for Sauron dying like a weak feeb numerous more times than Gothmog died. Just cause Sauron comes back doesn't change the fact that he was beaten many times... What just cause Rich Franklin keeps on coming back to fight peope over and over and losing.. is that impressive to you?

NemeBro

I do find falling to actual impressive forces (Like werewolves protected by Fate itself, Eru Illuvitar, or a powerful Elven king and eight foot tall Man king) and managing to come back almost every time to be more impressive than getting gored by a helmet and pushed into some water, yes.

Stealth Moose

Sauron reformed his being after surviving the fall of Numenor. That's pretty hardcore.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by NemeBro
I do find falling to actual impressive forces (Like werewolves protected by Fate itself, Eru Illuvitar, or a powerful Elven king and eight foot tall Man king) and managing to come back almost every time to be more impressive than getting gored by a helmet and pushed into some water, yes.

Impressive you say.. what was impressive about Huan? Which feats did he have? Eru.. well that was just another time he was washed away like laundry... no really a bad showing per say cause it's Eru but just par for the course for Sauron and getting owned. Do tell me what is impressive about the Elven King and Man king... please cite for me their feats.. Ohh wait they have none.. So again.. what was impressive about him DYING many many times?

Gothmog killed Ecth.. who himself had killed other Balrogs prior... Killing other Balrogs is VASTLY more impressive than anything Gil-galad or The man King has EVER done.. EVER. It's also more impressive than anything Huan has ever done. Gothmog killed Ecth but also died.. hardly a low showing. Difference is Gothmog also killed Feanor, who again, is well above Ecth in feats and of course above anyboyd Sauron beat. There is no way to get around Gothmog killing more impressive people, dying less and being killed by more impressive people. There is zero way around that.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
thumb up

Sauron reformed his being after surviving the fall of Numenor. That's pretty hardcore.

Did you also think it was impressive for Rich Franklin to keep coming back from being KO'd.. only to be KO'd again? Do you like comeback stories? Is that why you love Sauron? Sorry it's not impressive to get owned over and over just cause you come back from it.

NemeBro

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Impressive you say.. what was impressive about Huan? Which feats did he have?

He was literally incapable of being killed there.

Also, Huan and Sauron fighting's howls alone were capable of being felt over two hundred kilometers away, so hey.

God could not fell Sauron for good.

He actually sort of killed both of them, if you recall. And their feats are fighting Sauron, mightiest of all the Maiar.

Ecthellion was already wounded and tired by the time he fought Gothmog.

Gothmog also needed another Balrog's help to slay Fingon, what a pussy.

Gothmog required a "long time" to kill Feanor despite fighting him with several other balrogs helping him. Not impressive.

Sauron also defeated Finrod in a contest of might without much trouble, and when he died, his power leaving Mordor devastated the entire area.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by NemeBro
He was literally incapable of being killed there.

Also, Huan and Sauron fighting's howls alone were capable of being felt over two hundred kilometers away, so hey.

God could not fell Sauron for good.

He actually sort of killed both of them, if you recall. And their feats are fighting Sauron, mightiest of all the Maiar.

Ecthellion was already wounded and tired by the time he fought Gothmog.

Gothmog also needed another Balrog's help to slay Fingon, what a pussy.

Gothmog required a "long time" to kill Feanor despite fighting him with several other balrogs helping him. Not impressive.

Sauron also defeated Finrod in a contest of might without much trouble, and when he died, his power leaving Mordor devastated the entire area.

Still waiting for the impressive feats of Huan.. not how far their footsteps could be heard... Further, why do you believe Huan couldn't be killed there

God most certainly could fell Sauron for good.. just because something didn't happen doesn't mean it couldn't. Just cause Pea lost to De La Hoya doesn't mean he'd lose everytime. If Eru wanted Sauron died forever.. that is EXACTLY what would happen and let's not act otherwise. He wasn't even trying to kill Sauron there anyways.. he was trying to wipe out the num's for disobeying the proclamation.

So dying to featless wonders is impressive to you? Sorry it's not. Those guys are not early age Elven Kings who's feats shit all over the later ones... Those were 3rd age elven and Man kings with no feats to their name. Sauron killing them isn't impressive but them kiling him is par for the course with Sauron.

And? Gothmog killed hiim period. Again Ecth beating a whole bunch of Balrogs is vastly superior to ANYTHING or Anybody Sauron has beaten or been beaten by. There is no way around that. IF you want to post a feat from anybody who has killed Sauron (besides eru) or someone Sauron has killed that Rivals kiling multiple balrogs please post it.. If not, than Ecth has better feats than Sauron.. period.

Feanor is EXPONENTIONALLY above ANYONE Sauron has beaten or been beaten by.. a recurring theme in this debate. You can say he had help..but the fact remains.. it was a BATTLE... Feanor had help as well.. Gothmog MANUEVERED hiimself and others in a position to beat the help Feanor had and to isolate him at the end... That is called battle tactics.. Gothmog was supeior and landed the death blow on the greatest Elven lord of all time.

and? This is impressive to you.. defeating Finrod has nothing on defeating Feanor.. fingon and ecth..

As I also stated before... Gothmog was Captain of Angband... Sauron was called Lieutenant of Angband.. as we know Captain is above Lieu... As we aslo know Gothmog NOT Sauron was put in charge of defending Melkor not Sauron.. in most of the battles Gothmog was leading the charge and protecting Melkor.. Sauron was held up in fortrress not powerful enough or with enough prestige to either lead nor help... and you wanna talk about being a pussy.

As I mentieond before when Melkor was about to be killed by Ugoliant.. who came to his rescue and drove it off.. not Sauron.. of course the puss was no where to be found.. it was the balrogs.. and we're talking about a super amped Spider who had just digested all fo the trees of light... somebody about to kill Melkor himself.. The balrogs saved Melkor when he couldn't even save himself. That is how powerful they were.

ares834

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Those guys are not early age Elven Kings who's feats shit all over the later ones... Those were 3rd age elven and Man kings with no feats to their name.

So Gil-Galad and Elendil are 3rd age characters now...

I think it's time to accept the fact that you have no clue what you are talking about.

NemeBro

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Still waiting for the impressive feats of Huan.. not how far their footsteps could be heard... Further, why do you believe Huan couldn't be killed there

lol

Huan and Sauron causing tremors over two hundred kilometers away is an amazing feat of power.

Huan couldn't be killed there because he was destined to die to Carcharoth.

Nope, Sauron can not die.

Gil-Galad was the song of Fingon, lol. Are you an idiot?

He killed an elf who could kill werewolves with his bare hands, lol.

Holy ****, it's like you never read The Silmarillion or something.

Feanor ran far ahead of his army and was surrounded by balrogs in his idiocy, it wasn't through Gothmog being a good general.

Seriously, shut shut up. thumb up

Stealth Moose

Originally posted by ares834
So Gil-Galad and Elendil are 3rd age characters now...

I think it's time to accept the fact that you have no clue what you are talking about.

http://littlefun.org/uploads/52025eeec856113fa9000014_736.jpg

NemeBro

That feel when a First Age elf and Numenorean lord turned king are called random third age characters.

Stealth Moose

Pretty sure at this point KT is arguing against us in a desperate attempt to keep human contact in his life steady.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by ares834
So Gil-Galad and Elendil are 3rd age characters now...

I think it's time to accept the fact that you have no clue what you are talking about.

No what I said and meant was.. Second and Third age Elves and men can't compare to first age Elves and men. That is a clear fact that can't be disputed. Now I'll ask you... Gil-Galad being the son of Fingon... Since it seems you're acting like he was a first age elf with feats to show for.. do tell me his feats... Ohhh wait... he was a young child for most of his existence in the first age... his feats and reign were almost exclusively in the secnod age

Elendil.. it again seems like you have no clue... please cite for me when he was born and what feats of his were during the first age.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Pretty sure at this point KT is arguing against us in a desperate attempt to keep human contact in his life steady.

Moosie.. you honestly have no clue about what we are talking about. You're doing your little sidelining routine because you were already made to look like a fool in this thread and others. Remember that whole... Morgoth came first before Melkor... anybody saying that.. should never act like they have a clue what they are talking about when it comes to Lord of the Rings or Sim material.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by NemeBro
lol

Huan and Sauron causing tremors over two hundred kilometers away is an amazing feat of power.

Huan couldn't be killed there because he was destined to die to Carcharoth.

Nope, Sauron can not die.

Gil-Galad was the song of Fingon, lol. Are you an idiot?

He killed an elf who could kill werewolves with his bare hands, lol.

Holy ****, it's like you never read The Silmarillion or something.

Feanor ran far ahead of his army and was surrounded by balrogs in his idiocy, it wasn't through Gothmog being a good general.

Seriously, shut shut up. thumb up

All but one of those he defeated with aid. The other killed him and was wounded before the fight. Are you an idiot?

Actually what I do know is that when Morgoth left Angband, command of all of Morgoth's forces was given to Sauron, not Gothmog.

We don't know where Sauron was at the time.

Also, Ungoliant fled because she feared the fire of their whips, fire burned her webs. It was a kryptonite effect.

Sauron is stated to be mightiest of the Maia.

Sauron wins.

Odd.. If he couldn't be killed and up until that point had only spoken once... why would he be cowaring in fear and not wanting to come out and fight Sauron?

You honestly can't be this stupid.. I mean really.. you can't. Even Ares would agree that Eru could perma kill Sauron at any time he felt like it. The God of all God could without question or with a mere thought wipe Sauron out for all existence. To even think otherwise is hilarious. He can't die.. so tell me.. after the one ring was destroyed... he's coming back agian?

I addressed this point to Ares.. You guys are hilarious that you try and talk crap and literally have no clue what you're talking about. Like literally. My point was very clear... Elves of the First age were far superior to later elves and their feats represent this. So, I'll ask you this because it's clear you have no clue. You do realize Gil-Galad was just a boy during the end of the first age right? Shit, he wasn't even born for the majority of the first age. You do realize that the vast majority of his life was spent in the second age right? Ohh wait you don't seem to know this. Elendil, again it seems you have no clue... Do you know when he was born? Do you honestly have a clue what you're talking about? What age was he from LULZ

Ummm feanor was that badass.. The greatest Elven king by a country mile. He was confident in his abilities and for good reason. The point is he had an army with him when the battle took place... Just because he was smart and prudent doesn't change the fact that he had help. Ares, with one of his many times of leaving out info.. even tried to make it seem like there was no battle and feanor was just jumped by Gothmog and Balrogs... this couldn't be further from the truth.. there was a battle.. and feanor was beaten and outmanuevered. Period. WHich again, is a slaying of somebody exponentionally better than anybody Sauron has beaten or been beaten by.

Ecth killing multiple balrogs is AGAIN greater than ANYTHING Sauron has ever done. You just can't get around this point can you. Name me ONE feat of Suaron in battle that is greater than killing multiple balrogs.. I'll be waiting on this.

Kryponite effect... okay... please cite the passage that says this as I don't remember that being said at all. What I do know is that she was amped and Morgoth himself couldn't defeat her or stop her from devouring him.. Balrogs could. As we know... Morgoth is vastly superior to Sauron

Umm No.. Sauron was the political figure head.. his right hand man.. his protege... He was not in charge of the armies and leading them. His military rank shows this very fact. You do know that a Captain is above Lieu right? You do understand that during these times.. the best warriors were out front leading the charge. The lead by example and the best of the best were leading the charge. That is how the battles were fought in the Sim... NO tell me.. If Sauron was so powerful and so strong.. why was he NEVER EVER leading the charge of battle when Gothmog was around? Odd isn't it? Well not really considering Sauron was more a politician than he was a warrior. Which again is confirmed by how many times his shit was pushed in. So explain to me why he was never leading any armies or leading them into battle if he was so powerful?

Saruman was said to be more powerful than Gandalf.. by Gandalf... Him saying that would include Maiar like Sauron as well.. Yet Gandalf was able to defeat Saruman... Hyperbole means jack.. feats mean everything.

Now what I want you to do is this?

1 Name me all the times Gothmog has died and the times Sauron has died.. Who has had their shit pushed in more?

2. Name me all the battle Sauron lead when Gothmog was around... thnk think think

3. Name me ANY feat of Sauron in battle that is better than killing multiple balrogs at one time. I already know you can't but do avoid this question LULZ

4. Name me any slaying of Sauron has that is better than killing Ecth and Feanor?

5. Which is a higher military rank.. Captain or Lieutentant?

I'm also curious why Wiki, tolkiens gateway and other LOTR sites list Gothmog and Sauron has having the same rank. Explain this to me

Lord Lucien

Guys, you have no clue. There's no clue to be had guys. Get a clue, guys.

Stealth Moose

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Moosie.. you honestly have no clue about what we are talking about. You're doing your little sidelining routine because you were already made to look like a fool in this thread and others. Remember that whole... Morgoth came first before Melkor... anybody saying that.. should never act like they have a clue what they are talking about when it comes to Lord of the Rings or Sim material.

Mixing up Melkor and Morgoth, despite nailing everything else right, is a gaff, not a sign of ignorance.

You thinking Sauron is weaker than Gothmog, coupled with not knowing the details of Sauron's battles with Huan, the details surrounding Feanor's battle, and Gothmog's entire resume tbh, makes you truly full of shit.

You haven't quoted one source. Repeatedly saying something only makes it true if you work for the government. Get a grip.

ares834

Also since a certain someone is using BoLT as a "canon" source:

"the royal house laid on and the king came down in splendour among them and hewed with them, that they swept again much of the square, and of the Balrogs slew even two score, which is a very great prowess indeed: but greater still did they do, for they hemmed in one of the Fire-drakes for all his flaming, and forced him into the very waters of the fountain that he perished therein."

So killing a single dragon is considered more impressive than killing 40 Balrogs... Guess that means dragons are far greater than Balrogs.

KuRuPT Thanosi

So I'm still waiting for the feats of Elendil and Gol-Galad in the first age.. you guys laughed at me for saying first age elves were more impressive than Second or Third age elves.. which of course in canonically true.. You guys acted like the two in question have feats in the first age LULZ... POST THEM please... Or could it be that Gil-Galad wasn't even around for most of the first age and when he was.. he was a child for most of it... Most of his entire reign was in the second age... That isn't getting into Elendil of the FIRST AGE LULZ HAHAHA.

So I'm still waiting on their feats or what they accomplished during this time... I'll be waiting on pins and needles

Ohhh and one more things Ares... who was leading the batttle in BOLT?

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Mixing up Melkor and Morgoth, despite nailing everything else right, is a gaff, not a sign of ignorance.

You thinking Sauron is weaker than Gothmog, coupled with not knowing the details of Sauron's battles with Huan, the details surrounding Feanor's battle, and Gothmog's entire resume tbh, makes you truly full of shit.

You haven't quoted one source. Repeatedly saying something only makes it true if you work for the government. Get a grip.

Totally false... I am the first one to say these things that are canon facts...

1. I mentioned specific battles in the thread this thread spawned from.. good check out the thread.. I mentioned SPECIFIC battles Gothmog lead and Sauron was no place to be found.

2. I'm the one who mentioned Huan defeating Sauron.. this again was never brought up until I said it..

3. I mentioned Eru killing Sauron with the flood.. again this was first mentioned by me

4. I mentioned the Balrogs fighting her off to save Melkor, when again Sauron was nowhere to be found when the going got tough.. This was never brought up until I said this fact

5. I mentioned Gothmog killing Feanor.. Ecth.. and Fingon.. again this was never mentioned until I stated these facts

6. I mentioned Sauron being called the Lieutenant of Angband.. while Gothmog was the Captain.. again nobody mentioned that canon fact until I did.

Those are just a handful of the canon facts that I mentioned that were never presented until I joined the thread. That is just some of what I've said.. but to act like I've said no facts and brought nothing new is totally laughable and idiotic. You can say oohhh well there was context to this and context to him kllling this person.. but the fact remains me stating Gothmog killed them is a canon fact and something that was presented before. That is just a handful of things I brought to the table.. what have you brought? All you've done is sideline for Ares and Nib and act like you know what you're talking about. When really....

If somebody can't get the most fundamental of facts right.. Melkor coming before Morgoth.. it doesn't get much worse than that. You can say I left out whatever context I want. But Melkor coming being Morgoth should be some of the most common knowledge there is.. and you had no clue. Come back when you do have a clue and can bring more to the table than sidelining.

ares834

So now we know that a dragon>40 Balrogs.

thumb up

KuRuPT Thanosi

Still waiting on those first age feats for Elendil and Gil-Galad.. are they coming sometime this century? Ohh wait... I was spot on LULZ..

40 you say... why do you say such things Ares lol.. You need to do a revisionist recton bud. Again... which you failed to answer.. WHO WAS LEADING the battle including the Dragon(s)?

Stealth Moose

Originally posted by ares834
So now we know that a dragon>40 Balrogs.

thumb up

KuRuPT Thanosi

Keep cheerleading moosie poo... Morgoth before Melkor eh?

KuRuPT Thanosi

Still waiting on those 1st age feats again... LULZ

NemeBro

Well there was that time Sauron knocked out Luthien with a glance, the same Luthien that could knock out Morgoth with her magic. Which Sauron tanked, I should mention.

Lord Lucien

It's almost like the orders of power and ability aren't so black and white as A>B>C. It's almost like there's... nuance, or some worthless, hard-to-categorize shit like that.

Stealth Moose

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It's almost like the orders of power and ability aren't so black and white as A>B>C. It's almost like there's... nuance, or some worthless, hard-to-categorize shit like that.

Nonsense! Everything is black and white!

NemeBro

Not as black and white as my fist in your eye.

Lord Lucien

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Nonsense! Everything is black and white! Ya got yer reg'lur Numenoreans, and then ya got yer black Numenoreans. One's the awesomely powerful master race, and the other is the black Numenoreans.

Stealth Moose

Originally posted by NemeBro
Not as black and white as my fist in your eye.

You can't handle this bro.

KuRuPT Thanosi

So how about those first age feats for Gil-Galad? Should I choke on water some more with all those first age feats for Elendil LMAO.. Ohhh wait.. first age? lulz

NemeBro

Sauron knocked out someone who knocked out Morgoth.

Where are Gothmog's feats again?

Also, Gil-Galad was already High King of the Noldor and had been for some time by the time the War of Wrath happened.

No one said that Elendil was from the first age. At least I didn't. **** what anyone else said.

You however did say that both are third age characters, which is factually untrue, also you're a stupid pig ****er. thumb up

ares834

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So how about those first age feats for Gil-Galad? Should I choke on water some more with all those first age feats for Elendil LMAO.. Ohhh wait.. first age? lulz

Who the **** said Elendil was a first age character? You, however, did claim he and Gil-Galad were third age characters.

KuRuPT Thanosi

That not what I said.... First age Elves feats shit all over people from the 2nd and 3rd age.. I never said that's where Gil-Galad is from... ALso, you seem to not know about the first age if you think Gil-Galad had any feats in the first age... The MAJORITY of his reign was in the 2nd age... He BARELY came to the throne at the END of the first age. For the majority of the first age he wasn't even around until the end where he was a child and then took the throne as a young man. He has NO first age feats. Which again is why I said... Elves of the first age feats shit all over elves of subsequent ages.. Which again.. knowing Gil-Galad has NO first age feats as he only rose to power at the end of the first age.

You mention Sauron knocking out someone.. yet you fail to mention all the times Sauron was killed or defeated. Shit, he died more times than most people on here have gotten into a real world fight. His record is pretty bad when it comes to defeating people.

Gothmog on the other hand... was the captain of Angband... Sauron was only the Lieutenant. Numerous sites list them as having an equal rank with Morgoth.. yet me know Military wise they weren't equal. Gothmog was in charge of the forces and the General. He was leading troops into battle.. Sauron was held up in the fortress practicing magic.

When Melkor was crying out for help as he was being devoured... Where was Sauron to save him? No where to be found... The Balrogs saved the day. If somebody even more powerful than Sauron couldn't stop himself from being devoured by an amped Ug.. what would Sauron be able to do? Next to nothing... yet the balrogs could.

Further, as stated... gothmog died fighting Ecth.. who as you know killed numerous balrogs before being killed by Gothmog.. Anybody that can kill numerous balrogs is pretty damn powerful.. Yet Gothmog killed him... It was a last ditch effort that killed Gothmog.. he had already landed the killing blow.

Killing Feanor, is again, above anyhing Sauron has EVER done in his entire history. Like LIterally. We can go on and on about him having help yada yada.. the fact is.. there was a battle going on all around them... Feanor decided to rush Gothmog and his help.. he paid the pirce as AGAIN Gothmog landed the killing blow.. nobody else. Further, we're talking about the most powerful elf of all time here... not some run of the mill no feats Gil-Galad.

Wht it comes down to is this and there is no getting around this...

Gothmog has beaten better people and not lost nearly as many times. These are all facts. We can try and discredit gothmogs wins.. but he still won and landed the killing blows. Killing blows, AGAIN, against people far superior to ANYBODY Sauron has beaten or been beaten by.

Sauron was the better politician.. and better at black magic I'm sure. Shit I would even call him Morgoth's apprecntice and who he wanted to leave in charge of his affairs to care on his ways. No issue there. This however, is a BATTLE VS. FIGHT... Gothmog was the warrior... Sauron wasn't and was never called such.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by ares834
Who the **** said Elendil was a first age character? You, however, did claim he and Gil-Galad were third age characters.

Wrong again bud.. what I said was... Ist age elves FEATS shit all over second and third age characters.. That is absolutly how it is. If you interrupted what I said wrong.. or I wasn't clear enough.. that is what I was saying and believe said. Secondly, Elendil wasn't a first age character so even if I did mean what you thought I did.. .It would still apply and I would be spot on. Second, Gil-Galad WASN'T even around for the MAJORITY OF THE FIRST AGE. He came at the end of the first age and was a child even then. He took the thrown or should I say shared the thrown.. at the END of the first age. he reign was mostly all in the second age.. which again is NOT the first age. So again, when I say first age feats shit all over subsequent ones.. I'm dead on.. unless you can name me ANY first age feats of Gil-Galad.. I'M STILL WAITING ON THOSE.

NemeBro

Luthien is far more powerful than anyone Gothmog has ever fought. She put Morgoth and his entire army (You know, that includes Gothmog) sans Sauron to sleep. She couldn't knock out Sauron alone, and would have died were it not for Huan.

Sauron wins.

NemeBro

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Those were 3rd age elven and Man kings with no feats to their name. Shown: Kurupt Thanosi claiming that Elendil and Gil-Galad are third age characters.

What a stupid ****ing moron, lol.

ares834

Originally posted by NemeBro
Shown: Kurupt Thanosi claiming that Elendil and Gil-Galad are third age characters.

What a stupid ****ing moron, lol.

thumb up

Lord Lucien

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Wrong again bud.. what I said was... Ist age elves FEATS shit all over second and third age characters.. That is absolutly how it is. If you interrupted what I said wrong.. or I wasn't clear enough.. that is what I was saying and believe said. Secondly, Elendil wasn't a first age character so even if I did mean what you thought I did.. .It would still apply and I would be spot on. Second, Gil-Galad WASN'T even around for the MAJORITY OF THE FIRST AGE. He came at the end of the first age and was a child even then. He took the thrown or should I say shared the thrown.. at the END of the first age. he reign was mostly all in the second age.. which again is NOT the first age. So again, when I say first age feats shit all over subsequent ones.. I'm dead on.. unless you can name me ANY first age feats of Gil-Galad.. I'M STILL WAITING ON THOSE. Anyone who USES caps as MUCH as THIS is either an angry CHILD or someone who can't CONTROL the VOLUME of their VOICE.

Supra

NemeBro

Gothmog isn't an orc Supra.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by NemeBro
Luthien is far more powerful than anyone Gothmog has ever fought. She put Morgoth and his entire army (You know, that includes Gothmog) sans Sauron to sleep. She couldn't knock out Sauron alone, and would have died were it not for Huan.

Sauron wins.

Post the passage where Gothmog was KO'd by Luthien. I don't recall that being the case at all. Again... Why even bring it up anyways.. Sauron was defeated by Huan, and relatively easily I might add. Nothing new for Sauron though.. He's been defeated more times than he's had a meaningful one v one victory. Thta is just par for the course with him.

Let me ask you this.. would you not agree... that when it comes to Tolkien and first age characters... The most powerful ones i.e. kings.. generals etc etc... We're always up front leading the troops? The best of the best were often times out frong and mixing it up.. True or False? Then why was Sauron never leading any armies when Gothmog was around? It was gothmog leading the armies and the charge.. not Sauron. Which of course makes sense because Gothmog is the better warrior and fighter.. Sauron the better politician.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by NemeBro
Shown: Kurupt Thanosi claiming that Elendil and Gil-Galad are third age characters.

What a stupid ****ing moron, lol.

No what I was saying was... 1st age elves shit all over 2nd and third age elves... Same with men. . What I'm STILL waiting on.. is first age feats for Gil-Galad... Odd none have been posted yet.

Stealth Moose

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Post the passage where Gothmog was KO'd by Luthien. I don't recall that being the case at all. Again... Why even bring it up anyways.. Sauron was defeated by Huan, and relatively easily I might add. Nothing new for Sauron though.. He's been defeated more times than he's had a meaningful one v one victory. Thta is just par for the course with him.

1. This is in The Silmarillion, the same work which depicts anything done by Gothmog. If you don't know this, you don't know the source material, and you are arguing out of your ass.

2. Luthien lost a battle of magic/songs/etc. to Sauron, but she successfully bewitched Morgoth and his court, long enough to pry a Silmaril from his crown.

3. Huan is not just some Clifford clone; he is the Hound of the Valar, and explicitly protected by prophecy which states that he can only lose to the largest werewolf who had ever lived. Sauron shapeshifts into a werewolf, but he is not predicted to be the largest, so he loses. In Middle-Earth, prophecies override circumstance. The same reason why Beren was able to survive the Girdle of Melian when even Ungoliant for all her power, could not.

4. You don't know shit. Give up already.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
1. This is in The Silmarillion, the same work which depicts anything done by Gothmog. If you don't know this, you don't know the source material, and you are arguing out of your ass.

2. Luthien lost a battle of magic/songs/etc. to Sauron, but she successfully bewitched Morgoth and his court, long enough to pry a Silmaril from his crown.

3. Huan is not just some Clifford clone; he is the Hound of the Valar, and explicitly protected by prophecy which states that he can only lose to the largest werewolf who had ever lived. Sauron shapeshifts into a werewolf, but he is not predicted to be the largest, so he loses. In Middle-Earth, prophecies override circumstance. The same reason why Beren was able to survive the Girdle of Melian when even Ungoliant for all her power, could not.

4. You don't know shit. Give up already.

You're a total and complete moron.. It's clear you have no clue what you're talking about. I'm asking for the specific part or story in the Sil where Gothmog was knocked out.. or you didn't know it was a collection of works and stories did you? Have you ever even picked it up. WHICH PART OR CITE THE SECTION OF THE SIL WHERE GOTHMOG WAS KO'D. Is this another one of your Morgoth.. melkor moments Moosiepoo?

Why are you talkign about Huan defeating Sauron when I was the first person to even bring that up. It's not surprising as he's lost more times than he's done anything significant.

Stealth Moose

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/u-mad17cc_1867.jpg

No bro, you don't know wtf you're talking about. "WHERE DID THIS HAPPEN HURR" when it happened in the same few paragraphs which describe the Huan fight which you proclaim to be 'unimpressive'.

Why are you arguing absolutely for a minor character in a book you clearly haven't read?

KuRuPT Thanosi

Because I've read said paasage.. I've brought up said feat... I was the first person to bring up Huan defeating Sauron... I don't recall gothmog ever being SPECFICALLY metioned being knocked out. So again... cite me the passage that says gothmog was KO'd. I don't recall that part at all.

Melkor/Morgoth moment?

Stealth Moose

Nemebro explicitly stated that Luthien was helpless against Sauron but not against Morgoth. The former incident is in the -same- few pages as describing Huan's rigged victory over Sauron, something you said was proof of Sauron's weakness. Nemebro's correct on the point and your ignorance of the greater context tells me that you don't know wtf you're talking about. It's a "collection of works" all under one title and in one book form, derp. Stop quoting various websites and reread the copy of the book you pretend to have. Quote us some Gothmog badassery while you're at it.

You're the only person in this thread who claims Gothmog is superior to Sauron and the one with the weakest arguments and least evidence. No one is inclined to humor you any more. Prove up or shut up.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Do you know which works make up the Sil? I mean honestly.. you didn't even know it was a collection of many stories put together under one book? You didn't even know that much? I mean I thought you were pretty ignornant on the matter when I saw you say Morgoth came before Melkor.. that alone told me you have zero clue what you're talking about.. If you did.. nobody could make such a basic mistake. You trying to read up on the sil now.. doesn't cover up the fact that you have little to no clue what you're talking about. Now.. which works make up the Sil.. so you seem to laugh at the notion that's a combination of stories

Concession accepted... Gothmog was NEVER EVER specifically mentioned as being KO'd... You sure go a round about way of admitting something so basic. Instead you decide I'll use red herrings and ad hominem fallacies to try and cover up yoru incompetence. Or I'll give you another shot.. cite me the passage where Gothmog was KO'd..

Lastly, I've listed NUMEROUS feats of Gothmog that trump anything Sauron has ever done. Now you're claiming I didn't list any feats LOL.. How cute.. any feat mentioned for GOthmog has been by me.. just because some of you don't like the context or him killing better people than Sauron ever has.. doesn't change the fact that he has.

BTW.. are you claiming Sauron is above Morgoth now?

NemeBro

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Post the passage where Gothmog was KO'd by Luthien. I don't recall that being the case at all.

You know very well which passage it occurs in.

Where was Gothmog if not in Thangorodrim? Morgoth wasn't warring at that particular point in time IIRC, so where would he have been?

Huan would beat Gothmog 1v1 and he wouldn't have to die to do it. Huan killed Carcaroth, who was so powerful he could break through the Girdle of Melian.

Also, Sauron was sluggish and drowsy during the fight due to Luthien's enchantment, since though she could not defeat him, she was powerful enough to slow him down.

Morgoth lead from the far rear.

Melian and Thingol rarely left their houses.

Just two examples off the top of my head.

You mean like that time Sauron personally took Minas Tirith at the behest of Morgoth?

Nope.

Gothmog has never actually beaten an elven lord in single combat. He's killed two elves with help from other Balrogs, and the one time he man-fight a powerful elf one on one, he died, with Ecthellion only dying due to apparently being unable to swim, so he drowned.

Sauron has two elven lords, one half-Maian Noldor princess, and an eight foot tall Numenorean king on his resume', and maybe someone else I'm forgetting.

Oh, and it's confirmed that even without the One Ring, he could have conquered Lothlorien and personally killed Galadriel.

Oh, and during the Akallabeth, he actually wards off the power of the ****ing Valar from all of Numenor.

Gothmog has nothing on Morgoth's greatest servant.

Stealth Moose

Apparently KT needs a handwritten letter from Tolkien dated today to convince him that Sauron > Gothmog.

NemeBro

I am waiting.

NemeBro

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
No he wasn't reigning fo rsometime at all. In fact, he was SHARING the reign once his father died. He was only a teenager when he took over and that was AT THE END of the first age. He had NO FIRST AGE FEATS.. You concede this correct? You about it in a long winded way but this point this stands he has NO first age feats.

A. We aren't given a birthdate for Gil-Galad, we don't know how old he was when he became king.

B. He was passed up for being king of the Noldor after Fingon's death in favor of Turgon due to being young, so him becoming king as a teenager is impossible.

C. He became king in FA510. The First Age wouldn't end until FA590.

D. Fingon died in FA472. Gil-Galad was already born by then, he was fully grown by the time he became king.

So will you concede that Gil-Galad was a child when he became king?

Killing two heroes at once (Without help, so we know he's manlier than Gothmog) who are both more powerful than Galadriel is not impressive?

Ecthelion did, but his feats are not as good as Luthien. Why are you avoiding mention of her like the plague?

Name Feanor's feats besides dying, lol.

Oh I am well-aware of the hype surrounding him, and he probably is the strongest character Gothmog killed (While backed by his entire host of Balrogs and due solely to Feanor's own stupidity), but for a feat-hungry whore like you, does that matter?

The First Age.

Sauron took Minas Tirith before Gothmog died.

Lieutenant as in "a deputy or substitute acting for a superior", not the military rank.

Gothmog didn't outrank Sauron and your insistence that he did flies in the face of all canon. Sauron was Morgoth's greatest and most trusted servant, per the text.

Because he did.

Which is why Morgoth always led his troops from the front, as did Thingol.

Oh wait, no they didn't!

He took Minas Tirith in the First Age. no expression

When was the last time you read the Silmarillion?

Ever?

You're so wrong it's kind of scary, mostly because you seem convinced you're so right.

I said "the Valar" not "Eru Illuvitar".

I am referring to when Manwe's "eagles" (This may or may not be a metaphor for clouds, I'm admittedly not sure) came and rained lightning on all of Numenor, only for Sauron to casually deflect their bolts as they shot the high temple he built, and his power was such that the Numenoreans "likened him to a god".

And wanna know the best part? Sauron wasn't even wearing the One Ring at the time. thumb up

Why do you regurgitate the same farcical point over and over again?

Sauron did lead troops into battle while Gothmog was around. He did kill Elven lords, as Finrod could tell you. You know nothing about Lord of the Rings.

KuRuPT Thanosi

I'm still waiting for this concession ... WHAT ARE GIl-GALAD FIRST AGE FEATS?? You concede he doesn't have any correct? So I was spot on when I said he has no first age feats and Elves of the first age have feats that shit all over Gil-Galad or Elendil. Correct?

By the dates I'm well aware of (which is why I posed the question) he was ONLY KILL AT THE VERY END of the first age.. JUST AS I SAID. Like literally just before the second age was to start. Which again is exactly what I said.. His rule was almost entirely in the second age.. not the first.

Also, I think you're wrong about him getting passed over. I could be wrong here.. but I could've sworn when his father died... he took over along with Turgon and they both ruled.. just one ruled land and Turgon rules another. I'm also positive Gil-Galad shared his reign and wasn't the only king of Noldor for sometime. Maybe I'm wrong but that is how I remember it. I'll look it up.

What feats of Luthien are you referring to? I'm not avoding anything.. that is an okay feat... well I should say.. probably his best feat. Even then, it's not like it was a one v one battle nor did he kill Luthien either if I remember correctly. I don't know why you go on and on about it.

So you concede Ecth had far superior feats to Gil-Galad and Elendil correct?

Gothmog was around... He wasn't at that battle at all... do you know when Gothmog died and the battle of M.T. was?

I keep on bringing it up because the fact is.. in most cases the strongest are leading the troops. There are exceptions but we see this much more than not. Do you concede this point? You talk about me avoiding stuff.. you keep avoding simple concessions like the plague. So, with some exceptions the best of the best are usually out front.. Yet, when Gothmog was around... Sauron was NEVER leading any troops.. Why is that? If he was so badass why did he never lead any battles and Gothmog was behind him taking orders. NEVER, NOT ONCE do we see this. You do concede that for most of the major battles when Gothmog was alive.. HE was leading not Sauron correct? Why is that?

That is YOUR version.. post the narrative in the Sil that says that is what Lietenant means. Post that narrative please or concede that is your interpretation of it. Mine is the more universal view.. which is captain is above Lieu.. you agree that is more universal correct?

I'm not referring to that time.. I'm referring to when Numenor was floaded by Eru.. and Sauron DIED because of it. Did you not say that Eru coudn't kill Sauron if he wanted to. Should I find the quote LOL BWHAHAHHAHAHA

Elendil and Gil-Galad above Galadriel.. WTF... What on God's green earth are you basing this on?

Oneness

Sauron w/ring decimates.

Essentially, Sauron was given everything he had by Melkor's machinations of Arda and by the corruption of the Ring. He never used too much of his own energy on corrupting Arda, so he preserved almost all of it till his final destruction.

Sauron was a lesser Maiar than Gothmog perhaps, but with that ring he's more powerful. Even without it he is a greater Maiar than Mithrandir, so perhaps he was stronger than Gothmog - as Gandalf was able to throw down one of the lesser Balrogs (and was technically greater than the Witch King, especially as the Head Wizard).

Marsh Foster

Sauron should win with ease. There isn't too much competition in this one.

Stealth Moose

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
During the Siege though He never appeared before the very end. What is so impressive about holding up in the fortress till you no longer can? There isn't anything impressive about that at all.

Actually there is; against the combined forces of the Elves and Men of Middle-earth, Saurons mere appearance nearly broke the siege. This is far more evident in the books than in the film, and it is only because of the heroic sacrifice of Gil-Galad and Elendil that Sauron bites the dust.

Proof by assertion. Elrond and Gil-Galad are First Age Elves, in that they are born during the First Age. Elrond is actually older, and part Maiar, and Galadrial/Celeborn older still and have the benefit of seeing the lights of the Two Trees of Valinor, yet all of them are subservient to Gil-Galad.

So you claim it is the case; therefore it is? What are you even pretending to accomplish here?

Ultimately, this is a red herring. Gothmog hasn't killed anyone alone; Sauron has. Gothmog hasn't shown any higher levels of magic; Sauron has. Gothmog hasn't nearly broken a siege by just showing up; Sauron has. Gothmog hasn't killed a soul without being backed up by an unknown amount of cronies; Sauron has.

You don't have an argument.

Proof by assertion. Morgoth did not rule from the front, and he is explicitly the strongest agent of evil in the universe.

Yes, it does. Melkor could curbstomp Sauron and Gothmog combined. Evil only respects might as right. The hierharchy goes Morgoth > Sauron > Gothmog = Dragons > Balrogs > Everything else.

Just saying "THIS IS SO" is not an argument; that's baseless refuting. Learn to debate, noob.

No, Tolkien is, and the evidence is as well. You're just being stupid because you think Sauron is a mere politician and Gothmog is some battle hardened warrior, even though Sauron can kill people with his bare hands (he burned Gil-Galad alive) and Gothmog can't kill anything up to and including a maimed and dying elflord without his posse.

Again, you have no argument. QED.

This is all pointless. Sauron was explicitly stronger than Gothmog. Tolkien himself all but says it, and Gothmog has not killed anyone by himself.

Again, for the umpteenth time, you have no argument.

Eru, if he was so inclined, could kill anyone. But his attack against Numenor, while not directed at Sauron himself, caused a shit-ton of collateral damage. Damage which Sauron mostly mitigated and escaped.

Gothmog hasn't shown that kind of mastery in anything, save for being the First Age equivalent of a gang leader.

Gandalf the Grey is explicitly holding back, even while fighting the Balrog. And he died anyways. There's a passage on the wizards not being able to strive against Sauron with their full Maiar might because it would destroy Middle-earth if they did.

And even then, Saruman, Gandalf the Grey's superior in might if not in wisdom, was afraid of Sauron and knew he would lose alone.

You're retarded if you think the weapons of Elendil and Gil-Galad were "conventional weapons".

Except that you don't know the durability difference between Durin's Bane and Gothmog; they could be exactly alike but one has a captain's garb. There's no evidence to suggest any superiority other than rank and having a legit name.

And as I said above, you're outright stupid if you think the weapons of Gil-Galad and Elendil were conventional weapons.

Gothmog has defeated no one.

Gothmog with an unknown number of other balrogs has killed before, such as Feanor who had fought for ten days continuously and was without much backup (absolutely no named elflords were with him in the vanguard and even then, Feanor made Gothmog and co. work hard for it).

Gothmog died to Ecthelion, who was maimed and dying, from a helmet spike and water.

Helmet spike <<<<<< Narsil/Aeglos.

Lol. You don't know what the **** you're talking about.

Since mages are always more powerful than mere brutes, you concede that Gothmog loses any fight and is inferior.

Thanks!

Lol.

Yes, because getting orcs to vote for him was part of his job description.

http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Liv-Tyler-Laughing-During-Lord-Of-The-Rings-Commentary.gif

You haven't demonstrated that any of this is true. And as I've noted above, much of what you're saying is false. You can't even directly provide source material for your claims, which further indicates you are arguing out of your ass.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/3019573/indiana-jones-face-melt-o.gif

StealthRanger

Sauron killed a soul? I'm curious now

Stealth Moose

Yes. All of the souls. He is a Soul Reaver.

Stealth Moose

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
During the Siege though He never appeared before the very end. What is so impressive about holding up in the fortress till you no longer can? There isn't anything impressive about that at all. The facts are, first age elves have the better feats. You can say well there is no reason for this, but that doesn't change the fact that's true. Second and Third age elves don't have the feats to match 1st age elves. Absence of proof isn't proof.. that isn't how it works. There needs to be PROOF that third age elves can and have completed the same knida feats as first age. We don't don't go.. ohhh they should be able to do the same stuff they just never did. nice try though, and we'll just go ahead that first age elves have the better feats.

Actually it does in the LOTR verse. The strongest are put in front way more times than not. There are always exceptions, but for the majority of people and fights the best were out in front and leading the charge. Melkor not leading the charge proves next to nothing. You're basically saying The Vice president (Sauron) is more powerful and a better leader/fighter than the general in the trenches. This couldn't be further from the truth and the analogy we have here. It's one thing to okay thing and give orders but not want to risk too much so you stay indoors. But still give the okay to things or oder things. Sauron was doing NEITHER. He wasn't put out to lead the troops and earn victories nor was he in charge of sending out the order or making the plans.. Melkor was. Which is the point.. he was NETHER.

Well Neme was claiming that Eru couldn't even kill Sauron if he watned to.. I sure hope it was him and not you.. because if it was you.. that was pretty idiotic of you. Anyways, it came up because I was mentioning the one of many times Sauron has been killed.

Think about it... It took Gandalf days to kill a inferior Balrog to Gothmog. This is after a super long fall which obviously would've hurt the balrog. You mix h2h combat with lighting and magic and it still took that long to kill him This is a maiar mind you that took that long to kill one. Sauron was killed by conventional weapons in a vastly shorter period of time by an inferior enemy. Care to explain that? This is an inferior Balrog were't talking about.. Not the Lord of the Balrogs and High Captain of Angband. It took Gandalf THAT long to get the job done with weapons and Magic. It took 2 elves exponentially less time to Kill Sauron with conventional weapons. Huge difference in durability.

What it comes down to is this...

Gothmog has beaten better foes (indisputable)

Gothmog was the captain and leader of Melkor's forces not Sauron. Sauron didn't do jack shit but practice his magic in the fortress while Gothmog handled business

Balrog's were meant to be brutes and fighting Machines. I will concede that Sauron is a more powerful Mage and better in the dark arts. He was even a better politician. He could be all those things but it doesn't change the fact that Gothmog was a more powerful fighter and foe. that is what they did and what they were about. Sauron was no warrior... Gothmog was and it showed in the battlefield.

It's been over a month.

Concession accepted.