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Captain America
Deathstroke
Black Panther
Batman
Spiderman

Please rank them from greatest to least. Pre reboot versions of DC characters.

Captain

cap

Team strat Cap.

One on one Bats.

Originally posted by carver9
Captain America
Deathstroke
Black Panther
Batman
Spiderman

Please rank them from greatest to least. Pre reboot versions of DC characters.

Tough call, bud. During combat, eh?

Hmm.

I would take into account how effective they are overall (not at just barking the right orders, but also at getting folks to follow them, and keeping in mind that "in combat" often means random encounter/No prep)...

I suppose I would rank them as such:

1). Captain America
2). Batman
3). Black Panther
4). Spiderman
5). Deathstroke

Rational:

Cap can lead any team (even villains) at the drop of a hat, and they will tend to follow him. His charisma is so off the charts, that it's virtually a super power in itself. Leadership means nothing if you cannot garner the respect of your peers. Cap can. He's a soldier's commander, born and raised.

Batman is brilliant, but shines more in Prep than in Combat. This not to say he doesn't shine in combat. He does. Just not as bright as Cap. Bats is too dark. His charisma tanks where Cap's shines. Drop him into the middle of a mixed team dynamic, and his ability to truly lead would be tested, while Cap would feel right at home. That said, give Bats some prep and he owns.

Panther is somewhere between Cap and Bats, but lacks the Team Leadership Feats of either man.

Spiderman can lead when he chooses too. And be it as Pete or Octo, he's had a good deal of experience.

Deathstroke, I'm honestly not too sure of. I may be low balling him, and if so that is my bad for simply not knowing enough about his leadership skill set.

Lord Rogers.

Originally posted by jaxthejester
Tough call, bud. During combat, eh?

Hmm.

I would take into account how effective they are overall (not at just barking the right orders, but also at getting folks to follow them, and keeping in mind that "in combat" often means random encounter/No prep)...

I suppose I would rank them as such:

1). Captain America
2). Batman
3). Black Panther
4). Spiderman
5). Deathstroke

Rational:

Cap can lead any team (even villains) at the drop of a hat, and they will tend to follow him. His charisma is so off the charts, that it's virtually a super power in itself. Leadership means nothing if you cannot garner the respect of your peers. Cap can. He's a soldier's commander, born and raised.

Batman is brilliant, but shines more in Prep than in Combat. This not to say he doesn't shine in combat. He does. Just not as bright as Cap. Bats is too dark. His charisma tanks where Cap's shines. Drop him into the middle of a mixed team dynamic, and his ability to truly lead would be tested, while Cap would feel right at home. That said, give Bats some prep and he owns.

Panther is somewhere between Cap and Bats, but lacks the Team Leadership Feats of either man.

Spiderman can lead when he chooses too. And be it as Pete or Octo, he's had a good deal of experience.

Deathstroke, I'm honestly not too sure of. I may be low balling him, and if so that is my bad for simply not knowing enough about his leadership skill set.



Lacks the team leadership??? T'Challa has been responsible for leading armies damn near his entire life.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Lord Rogers.

Batman
Captain America
Panther
Spidey
Deathstroke

Originally posted by Odekahn
Batman
Captain America
Panther
Spidey
Deathstroke

Originally posted by Trackz
Lacks the team leadership??? T'Challa has been responsible for leading armies damn near his entire life.

I didn't say he lacks Leadership.

I said he lacks the Leadership Feats of the other two.
Feats- as in on-panel tactician Feats that occur during comic book encounters.

I'm not knocking Panther's ability to lead a country or a tribe.

I'm only saying that Steve and Bruce have more Feats with leading a Super Team with mixed individual personalities.

Country Leadership is very different than direct team combat leadership.

Originally posted by Odekahn
Batman
Captain America
Panther
Spidey
Deathstroke

Wow. We were only off by a single person, and they were only one slot apart.

Great minds, eh?

Originally posted by jaxthejester
I didn't say he lacks Leadership.

I said he lacks the Leadership Feats of the other two.
Feats- as in on-panel tactician Feats that occur during comic book encounters.

I'm not knocking Panther's ability to lead a country or a tribe.

I'm only saying that Steve and Bruce have more Feats with leading a Super Team with mixed individual personalities.

Country Leadership is very different than direct team combat leadership.

No matter what anyone says about you, your are a forum legend now. You made my limitless rage monster reality

Originally posted by Supra
No matter what anyone says about you, your are a forum legend now. You made my limitless rage monster reality

Ha ha! ...wait, what are people saying about me?



J/K

Originally posted by jaxthejester
Wow. We were only off by a single person, and they were only one slot apart.

Great minds, eh?



Indeed good sir.

Either bat or cap for number 1 but I'm leaning towards Batman.

1.Cap.America

Originally posted by Odekahn
Batman
Captain America
Panther
Spidey
Deathstroke

BP HE LEADS A COUNTRY END OF STORY

Batman
Captain America
Deathstroke
Black Panther
Spider-man

Originally posted by jaxthejester
I didn't say he lacks Leadership.

I said he lacks the Leadership Feats of the other two.
Feats- as in on-panel tactician Feats that occur during comic book encounters.

I'm not knocking Panther's ability to lead a country or a tribe.

I'm only saying that Steve and Bruce have more Feats with leading a Super Team with mixed individual personalities.

Country Leadership is very different than direct team combat leadership.

it is very different, however t'challa has still been in a commanding position of super humans, seeing as wakanda has plenty of meta humans itself. seeing as the thread asks who is the better strategist, i would assume the one who consistently strategizes with more pieces on the board would be superior.

moreover, there's a reason steve was kicked out of the illuminati, it's because his perspective is limited.

If given any amount of time during battle Batman is IMO the best especially when clearly outmatched

Originally posted by python99
If given any amount of time during battle Batman is IMO the best especially when clearly outmatched have you read any of the black panther's books before?

Y is Cyclops not listed

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Y is Cyclops not listed

Cyke would be below Panther and above Spidey imo.

Originally posted by Odekahn
Cyke would be below Panther and above Spidey imo.

Cyke has lead the xmen for years he arguably second to Steve and far better than Bruce. Matter of fact I'd put Grayson ahead of Wayne any day

It's between Panther and Batman

1.)Steve
2.)Bruce
rest..

Captain America
Batman
Panther
Spidey
Deathstroke

Spidey

Stroke
Cap
Bat
Panther

Originally posted by Trackz
have you read any of the black panther's books before?

You have your opinion I have mine

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Cyke has lead the xmen for years he arguably second to Steve and far better than Bruce. Matter of fact I'd put Grayson ahead of Wayne any day

How is he better than Bruce?

Cyke has led the Xmen for years, while also under the direct instruction of Xavier. The Xmen have had TONS of mutinies over the years. I'm not knocking Scott or his experience, but he doesn't compare to Tchalla who leads an entire nation and has learned more indepth battle tactics over a longer period of time.

Also Grayson < Bruce

Originally posted by python99
You have your opinion I have mine

it's just a question, have you read them before??

When it comes to team leading, Nightwing, Steve and Cyclops would have the edge over Batman imo. Steve and Nightwing have already been acknowledged as superior and I put Cyclops right up there. If he was written less emotional at times (Such as during AvX but he was still matching Steve's leadership IIRC) I personally wouldn't mind him being a smidgeon better in terms of team strategy in comparison to Steve (Who has the tactical edge).

Originally posted by Odekahn
How is he better than Bruce?

Cyke has led the Xmen for years, while also under the direct instruction of Xavier. The Xmen have had TONS of mutinies over the years. I'm not knocking Scott or his experience, but he doesn't compare to Tchalla who leads an entire nation and has learned more indepth battle tactics over a longer period of time.

What? It's true for most of his teenage years, Xavier directed the X-men but when in the field or creating strategies, Cyclops was on point very soon into their history.

Doesn't compare to T'Challa? Common. Leading a people and in-depth battle tactics has been a defining part of Scott's repertoire for the last decade. Arguably more so then anyone else.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
When it comes to team leading, Nightwing, Steve and Cyclops would have the edge over Batman imo. Steve and Nightwing have already been acknowledged as superior and I put Cyclops right up there. If he was written less emotional at times (Such as during AvX but he was still matching Steve's leadership IIRC) I personally wouldn't mind him being a smidgeon better in terms of team strategy in comparison to Steve (Who has the tactical edge).



What? It's true for most of his teenage years, Xavier directed the X-men but when in the field or creating strategies, Cyclops was on point very soon into their history.

Doesn't compare to T'Challa? Common. Leading a people and in-depth battle tactics has been a defining part of Scott's repertoire for the last decade. Arguably more so then anyone else. Not moreso than T'Challa who has been doing it since he's been a character. Moreover he led a country that has never been defeated in battle. Can't say the same for Utopia. Cyclops is good but he isn't nearly as smart as T'Challa and he used his fellow mutants as pawns. He's good for an immediate win, but after each battle you could see him losing his people.

Originally posted by Trackz
Not moreso than T'Challa who has been doing it since he's been a character. Moreover he led a country that has never been defeated in battle. Can't say the same for Utopia. Cyclops is good but he isn't nearly as smart as T'Challa and he used his fellow mutants as pawns. He's good for an immediate win, but after each battle you could see him losing his people.

great post

And not just that, but this is "who is he best STRATEGIST during combat" / NOT "who inspires most to follow them" otherwise Superman should be on here too.

Originally posted by Odekahn
How is he better than Bruce?

Cyke has led the Xmen for years, while also under the direct instruction of Xavier. The Xmen have had TONS of mutinies over the years. I'm not knocking Scott or his experience, but he doesn't compare to Tchalla who leads an entire nation and has learned more indepth battle tactics over a longer period of time.

Also Grayson < Bruce Based on comics, Dick > Bruce as far as team leading.

Originally posted by Mindset
Based on comics, Dick > Bruce as far as team leading.

Read the thread title again.

Good points are being made here. Please include Cyclops to the list in the OP.

Originally posted by Odekahn
Read the thread title again. Read your post again...the post about leading teams and nations.

Originally posted by Mindset
Read your post again...the post about leading teams and nations.

The teams and nations part was in reference to Cyke vs BP in response to Sin.

Grayson < Batman is in reference to the overall thread, thus my pointing back to it by telling you to read the thread title again.

Dick being greater at "leading a team" is moot.

Originally posted by Odekahn
The teams and nations part was in reference to Cyke vs BP in response to Sin.

Grayson < Batman is in reference to the overall thread, thus my pointing back to it by telling you to read the thread title again.

Dick being greater at "leading a team" is moot. Except Sin was talking about leading a team and you replied to her in regards to the ability to lead a team.

Also, the thread doesn't say this is solely about 1v1 fights, so it looks like you don't know what you're talking about, bud.

Originally posted by Mindset
Except Sin was talking about leading a team and you replied to her in regards to the ability to lead a team.

Also, the thread doesn't say this is solely about 1v1 fights, so it looks like you don't know what you're talking about, bud.




/facepalm

No.

Sin was talking about who the better strategist is and said Cyke was due to his leading the Xmen (this is the first time "leading" has been mentioned here), so I addressed that point, but first asked what the reasoning behind saying Dick > Bruce. It had absolutely nothing to do with which of them (Bruce or Dick) was better at leading a team.

And the thread doesn't say 1v1 OR team leading. Both of those are smaller parts of a bigger picture you apparently don't see.

Originally posted by Odekahn
/facepalm

No.

Sin was talking about who the better strategist is and said Cyke was due to his leading the Xmen (this is the first time "leading" has been mentioned here), so I addressed that point, but first asked what the reasoning behind saying Dick > Bruce. It had absolutely nothing to do with which of them (Bruce or Dick) was better at leading a team.

And the thread doesn't say 1v1 OR team leading. Both of those are smaller parts of a bigger picture you apparently don't see. Yes, so Sin was talking about leading a team, and you responded in kind.

I told you how Dick was better than Bruce.

In reply you told me to read the thread title...

You seem confused.

out of all?
tough but im going with Panther

Originally posted by Mindset
Yes, so Sin was talking about leading a team, and you responded in kind.

I told you how Dick was better than Bruce.

In reply you told me to read the thread title...

You seem confused.

But the overall point isn't who can lead a team. So, my directing you to the title was also a way of saying/encouraging, "get back on topic". I guess subtlety isn't making its impression known...

Originally posted by Odekahn
But the overall point isn't who can lead a team. So, my directing you to the title was also a way of saying/encouraging, "get back on topic". I guess subtlety isn't making its impression known... How is skill in leading a team in combat situations not applicable to prowess in combat strategy?

Batman is a better 1v1 and 1v10000000 strategist then nightwing is but nightwing is a better team leader then Batman is but that's my opinion.

Originally posted by Mindset
How is skill in leading a team in combat situations not applicable to prowess in combat strategy?

I didn't say it wasn't applicable, I said it's not the overall point. It's only a fraction of the question we are answering here. Possessing the best strategical mind and knowing how to socially communicate to a team are two entirely different things.

Originally posted by Odekahn
I didn't say it wasn't applicable, I said it's not the overall point. It's only a fraction of the question we are answering here. Possessing the best strategical mind and knowing how to socially communicate to a team are two entirely different things. You're only thinking about a small part of leading.

Originally posted by Mindset
You're only thinking about a small part of leading.

You are only thinking about a small part of combat strategy. Leading skill falls underneath that category. I'm looking at the entire picture.

Either way to sum it up Dick is far better than Wayne. Possessing the charisma that Bruce lacks he's arguably the best team leader DC has imo.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Either way to sum it up Dick is far better than Wayne. Possessing the charisma that Bruce lacks he's arguably the best team leader DC has imo.

But Dick isn't a better strategist during combat, which is what the thread is asking. Bruce > Grayson

Also I wish people would stop placing tchalla so high. Namor, Aquaman, Black Bolt, Doom, etc all lead nations that don't mean they excel under tue thread stips

1. Panther
2. Captain America
3. Batman
4. Deathstroke
5. Spider-man

Originally posted by Odekahn
But Dick isn't a better strategist during combat, which is what the thread is asking. Bruce > Grayson

I read the op and your still wrong

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I read the op and your still wrong

How?

Originally posted by Odekahn
How?

Bruce and Clark have both admitted that Dick is far better than the two. He has the best attributes of both without the character flaws of Bruce or god complex of Kent. He's effectively lead more teams and his combat strategy is second to none. And I'm not talking about prep battles, I'm talking strictly combat strategy.

And as far as this thread goes. It should be expanded to All comic book characters not just those mentioned cause Optimus Prime, Leonardo and Rick Grimes would shit on Bruce Wayne not to mention a ass ton of others

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Also I wish people would stop placing tchalla so high. Namor, Aquaman, Black Bolt, Doom, etc all lead nations that don't mean they excel under tue thread stips

Wakanda just beat Atlantis in war. T'Challa consistently beats Namor in combat due to a weapon that Namor knows he has but fails to account for it. The only one on that list comparable to T'Challa is Doom, even then T'Challa is able to out strategize Doom at times, though he always takes significant losses.

Originally posted by deathslash
1. Panther
2. Captain America
3. Batman
4. Deathstroke
5. Spider-man
Panther above Cap? Flat out wrong.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Bruce and Clark have both admitted that Dick is far better than the two. He has the best attributes of both without the character flaws of Bruce or god complex of Kent. He's effectively lead more teams and his combat strategy is second to none. And I'm not talking about prep battles, I'm talking strictly combat strategy.

No you aren't. You are talking about team leading like its synonymous with combat strategy. It's not. This thread isn't asking who has the most charisma, who is socially more able to communicate effectively, or who cares most about the lives of the people they are fighting with.

It's strictly combat strategy. Kings willing to sacrifice the other pieces to ultimately win in the end. Bruce has more than just a tactical mind, he has psychological advantages which plays a big part as well as other mental professions that the others here are simply not as versed in as Batman. He is a mental jack of all trades and that is more effective in relation to the thread than "who is a better leader".

Grayson doesn't even come close. He's not as cold or calculated as Bruce. While it makes him more approachable to people working under him, it's doesn't boost his mental ability to tactically think greater than Batman.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Optimus Prime, Leonardo and Rick Grimes would shit on Bruce Wayne not to mention a ass ton of others

No they wouldn't.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Panther above Cap? Flat out wrong. how does captain america compare to t'challa in strategy?

he's not nearly as smart and they're about even in martial arts. captain america's role is to inspire, not to strategize, even on the avengers. that's what ironman is for. t'challa isn't as universally inspirational as cap, but he has him beat in any strategic measure, from one-on-one combat, to team combat, to nation vs. nation. t'challa is more efficient on every level and it's why steve was kicked out of the illuminati.

When did Wakanda best Atlantis? Tchalla beating Namor in cqb is pis and not what the thread is discussing and as far as Doom, BP lost that battle

Originally posted by Odekahn
No you aren't. You are talking about team leading like its synonymous with combat strategy. It's not. This thread isn't asking who has the most charisma, who is socially more able to communicate effectively, or who cares most about the lives of the people they are fighting with.

It's strictly combat strategy. Kings willing to sacrifice the other pieces to ultimately win in the end. Bruce has more than just a tactical mind, he has psychological advantages which plays a big part as well as other mental professions that the others here are simply not as versed in as Batman. He is a mental jack of all trades and that is more effective in relation to the thread than "who is a better leader".

Grayson doesn't even come close. He's not as cold or calculated as Bruce. While it makes him more approachable to people working under him, it's doesn't boost his mental ability to tactically think greater than Batman.

That's where your wrong. Leader/strategist is the same thing. I don't see y u can't see that. Especially in a combat situation.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Leader/strategist is the same thing. I don't see y u can't see that.


No, it's not lol.

Have you ever led a group at anything before? Have you ever played a strategy game before? Two entirely different things that CAN work together, but are still VERY different. By your line of thinking, Gary Kasparov should lead the free world...

Originally posted by Odekahn
No, it's not lol.

Have you ever led a group at anything before? Have you ever played a strategy game before? Two entirely different things that CAN work together, but are still VERY different. By your line of thinking, Gary Kasparov should lead the free world...

Best strategist during combat dood. And dick is better

Originally posted by Trackz
how does captain america compare to t'challa in strategy?

he's not nearly as smart and they're about even in martial arts. captain america's role is to inspire, not to strategize, even on the avengers. that's what ironman is for. t'challa isn't as universally inspirational as cap, but he has him beat in any strategic measure, from one-on-one combat, to team combat, to nation vs. nation. t'challa is more efficient on every level and it's why steve was kicked out of the illuminati.
You've got to be kidding here bro. Have you read I dunno any Avengers comic from the last decade? Pick up Busiek's Avengers run where both Cap and Panther are teammates and see who's leading who.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Best strategist during combat dood. And dick is better
Bruce is better than dick in strategies. Always have, just because he made him the leader of JLA in Obsidian Age doesn't means anything.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Best strategist during combat dood. And dick is better

Strategy during combat. All forms of it. Not teams and not 1v1, so stop looking at one factor and grasp the bigger picture. And again, being a good leader isn't the same as being a better tactician, so even in a team setting, who is a better "team captain" is minuscule in scope. Doodette.

Rogers' is the tactician and leader on the Avengers. Stark is the co-leader and gear head and may come up with an idea of how to use a specific piece of technology or something, but it's Steve who's handling the overall battle plan. That's how it's been for...well, decades, pretty much.

Originally posted by abhilegend
You've got to be kidding here bro. Have you read I dunno any Avengers comic from the last decade? Pick up Busiek's Avengers run where both Cap and Panther are teammates and see who's leading who. This isn't a question of who's leading who but rather it's a question of who's a better strategist.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
When did Wakanda best Atlantis? Tchalla beating Namor in cqb is pis and not what the thread is discussing and as far as Doom, BP lost that battle

In Infinity, Wakanda defeated Atlantis, leading Namor to send Thanos' army after Wakanda.

So i'm guessing you haven't read any of their fights if you're claiming PIS.

Originally posted by abhilegend
You've got to be kidding here bro. Have you read I dunno any Avengers comic from the last decade? Pick up Busiek's Avengers run where both Cap and Panther are teammates and see who's leading who.
By lead, do you mean allow a spy onto your team? Because that's what he did. T'Challa wanted to gather intel on all of the heroes in order to defend himself and wakanda against them.

Captain America leads the Avengers because he's the most respected and the heroes trust him. He's not as smart or cunning as most of the people on his team but he's given the leadership role because he's more experienced than most heroes and everyone respects him, he's also more than capable in his role however he's not the lead strategist.

Wakanda has never been defeated in combat, largely due to T'Challa's genius and cunning. Read their battle against the skrulls, against doom, or any Black Panther issue. In any level of combat T'Challa is superior to Cap in regards to strategy. Cap is the better leader due to the level of trust and respect heroes award him, but that's it. Like I said, there's a reason he's not a part of the illuminati. Cap doesn't rank with Cyclops, T'Challa, Doom, and the other better strategic minds.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Rogers' is the tactician and leader on the Avengers. Stark is the co-leader and gear head and may come up with an idea of how to use a specific piece of technology or something, but it's Steve who's handling the overall battle plan. That's how it's been for...well, decades, pretty much.

Name an example. In all of the latest events, Cap's role is basically to lead the frontlines and inspire his troops while he waits with the geniuses on the team to come up with the idea to save them. He's a great leader, but he's not the leading strategist. Give an example in combat or in battle where Cap's brilliant strategy saved the day.

Originally posted by Trackz
Name an example. In all of the latest events, Cap's role is basically to lead the frontlines and inspire his troops while he waits with the geniuses on the team to come up with the idea to save them. He's a great leader, but he's not the leading strategist. Give an example in combat or in battle where Cap's brilliant strategy saved the day. Because half of Infinity didn't have Cap leading the Galactic Council to victory over the Builders in multiple engagements... ?

Comic Rick Grimes would own. He has no super powers, but I trust him almost as much as Cap.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
And as far as this thread goes. It should be expanded to All comic book characters not just those mentioned cause Optimus Prime, Leonardo and Rick Grimes would shit on Bruce Wayne not to mention a ass ton of others

Originally posted by ODG
Because half of Infinity didn't have Cap leading the Galactic Council to victory over the Builders in multiple engagements... ? that's not what i asked. cap is in a leading position and he was responsible for giving the people hope when there was none, but i'm talking about strategic planning on his part. cap is one of the best leaders in marvel, as i've said before, due to his ability to inspire and the level of respect he commands.

Cyclops.

lol @ "strategy during combat" though.

Originally posted by Trackz
that's not what i asked. cap is in a leading position and he was responsible for giving the people hope when there was none, but i'm talking about strategic planning on his part. cap is one of the best leaders in marvel, as i've said before, due to his ability to inspire and the level of respect he commands.

It was his idea to use Thor against the Builders. His idea for the fleet battles. Gladiator, Annihilus et al gave him respect when the Spartoi were dismissive.

Lol @ questioning caps strategic skills

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It was his idea to use Thor against the Builders. His idea for the fleet battles. Gladiator, Annihilus et al gave him respect when the Spartoi were dismissive.

So your example of Captain America's strategic prowess is him sending in Thor to hit them?

The fleet battles were cunning, but Thor thought of that plan as well, and it's nothing on the level of Doom, T'Challa, Batman, or Cyclops.

Don't get me wrong, Cap is great, but the other guys are literally geniuses and have greater strategic victories. I'm by no means saying he's not great strategically, but look at how T'Challa handled the skrulls or doom, for more close combat scenarios look at how he handled silver surfer or Kasper Cole. That stuff exceeds steve's ability. Like i said before, there's a reason steve was kicked out of the illuminati.

Originally posted by Trackz
So your example of Captain America's strategic prowess is him sending in Thor to hit them?

The fleet battles were cunning, but Thor thought of that plan as well, and it's nothing on the level of Doom, T'Challa, Batman, or Cyclops.

Don't get me wrong, Cap is great, but the other guys are literally geniuses and have greater strategic victories. I'm by no means saying he's not great strategically, but look at how T'Challa handled the skrulls or doom, for more close combat scenarios look at how he handled silver surfer or Kasper Cole. That stuff exceeds steve's ability. Like i said before, there's a reason steve was kicked out of the illuminati.

How did he handle doom? Iirc he crippled his vibranium just so he'd leave wakanda alone. That's not strategy its desperation

Originally posted by Odekahn
You are only thinking about a small part of combat strategy. Leading skill falls underneath that category. I'm looking at the entire picture. No you aren't.

@ this thread: Strategy =/= tactics

Originally posted by -Pr-
@ this thread: Strategy =/= tactics

Tactics are the overall pieces of any strategy.

tac·tics (tktks)
n.
1.
a. (used with a sing. verb) The military science that deals with securing objectives set by strategy, especially the technique of deploying and directing troops, ships, and aircraft in effective maneuvers against an enemy: Tactics is a required course at all military academies

Originally posted by Odekahn
Tactics are the overall pieces of any strategy.

tac·tics (tktks)
n.
1.
a. (used with a sing. verb) The military science that deals with securing objectives set by strategy, especially the technique of deploying and directing troops, ships, and aircraft in effective maneuvers against an enemy: Tactics is a required course at all military academies

...And?

Originally posted by Trackz
that's not what i asked. cap is in a leading position and he was responsible for giving the people hope when there was none, but i'm talking about strategic planning on his part. cap is one of the best leaders in marvel, as i've said before, due to his ability to inspire and the level of respect he commands. Originally posted by ODG
Because half of Infinity didn't have Cap leading the Galactic Council to victory over the Builders in multiple engagements... ?

Originally posted by Trackz
So your example of Captain America's strategic prowess is him sending in Thor to hit them?

The fleet battles were cunning, but Thor thought of that plan as well, and it's nothing on the level of Doom, T'Challa, Batman, or Cyclops.

Don't get me wrong, Cap is great, but the other guys are literally geniuses and have greater strategic victories. I'm by no means saying he's not great strategically, but look at how T'Challa handled the skrulls or doom, for more close combat scenarios look at how he handled silver surfer or Kasper Cole. That stuff exceeds steve's ability. Like i said before, there's a reason steve was kicked out of the illuminati.

Why not send Hulk? Hyperion? Both with arguably greater durability and striking power. No, he sent a god (which played on the Builders ego) who possessed a boomerang weapon. He didn't just send a tank.

As for BP/ Doom, his entire army plus help from FF etc failed, his last gasp measure was the Panther God.....who agreed with Doom.

Destroying the Vibranium was desperation IMHO.

Steve was kicked out for having morals.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why not send Hulk? Hyperion? Both with arguably greater durability and striking power. No, he sent a god (which played on the Builders ego) who possessed a boomerang weapon. He didn't just send a tank.

As for BP/ Doom, his entire army plus help from FF etc failed, his last gasp measure was the Panther God.....who agreed with Doom.

Destroying the Vibranium was desperation IMHO.

Steve was kicked out for having morals.

Originally posted by Odekahn
Tactics are the overall pieces of any strategy.

tac·tics (tktks)
n.
1.
a. (used with a sing. verb) The military science that deals with securing objectives set by strategy, especially the technique of deploying and directing troops, ships, and aircraft in effective maneuvers against an enemy: Tactics is a required course at all military academies

Lol nice to see someone can copy and paste around here

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why not send Hulk? Hyperion? Both with arguably greater durability and striking power. No, he sent a god (which played on the Builders ego) who possessed a boomerang weapon. He didn't just send a tank.

As for BP/ Doom, his entire army plus help from FF etc failed, his last gasp measure was the Panther God.....who agreed with Doom.

Destroying the Vibranium was desperation IMHO.

Steve was kicked out for having morals.

What I said

And I luv how tracks is using bp armbar of norrin as if the feat holds any merit

Originally posted by Sin I AM

What I said


Me saying it makes it official canon.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Lol nice to see someone can copy and paste around here



What I said

And I luv how tracks is using bp armbar of norrin as if the feat holds any merit

so i'm assuming you don't read black panther if you're assuming i'm talking about the armbar.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why not send Hulk? Hyperion? Both with arguably greater durability and striking power. No, he sent a god (which played on the Builders ego) who possessed a boomerang weapon. He didn't just send a tank.

As for BP/ Doom, his entire army plus help from FF etc failed, his last gasp measure was the Panther God.....who agreed with Doom.

Destroying the Vibranium was desperation IMHO.

Steve was kicked out for having morals.

There's nothing wrong with Captain America as a tactician, but his feats don't stack up to the likes of Cyclops, T'Challa, Doom, Pete Wisdom, and others.

How can you give Captain America the benefit of using super humans for his plans and not give T'Challa that same?

Moreover, Doomwar was an example of two of Marvel's best strategists going at each other. It is a feat for both T'Challa and Doom in their adaptive ability. They managed to take out Dr. Doom entire network as well as render him powerless by destroying the Vibranium. This is, mind you, all adaptive planning in order to defeat Doom who had set his plan in motion months ago, while T'Challa was in a coma. Doom had the head start and was unable to defeat Wakanda. T'Challa didn't destroy all the vibranium either way, as they still recovered a large enough supply to sustain Wakanda's economy and the country was up and running again within months.

Captain America was kicked out because he was unwilling to consider every option his stubborn attitude mostly would have crippled the organization. They all have morals, they just realized that the event in question required necessary evil. They gave Captain America the respect he deserved and tried out his plan first which failed, it was T'Challa and Reed that built the device that ending up saving the earth multiple times.

Originally posted by ODG
This isn't a response. Yes Captain America is the leader of the Avengers, and has led them for years. His main strategy was to have Thor kill the enemy in order to inspire the people to fight. It worked, but that is not a strategic feat worth bringing up in this thread especially when he's being compared to Batman, Doom, Panther, and others.

Originally posted by ODG
Because half of Infinity didn't have Cap leading the Galactic Council to victory over the Builders in multiple engagements... ?

Originally posted by -Pr-
...And?

I'm just saying.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Lol nice to see someone can copy and paste around here


Lol Anyone who can't copy and paste shouldn't be using a computer

Originally posted by ODG
the multiple engagements were a montage of them doing exactly that, inspiring the armies to fight, unless you're thinking of another specific one that you'd like to bring up.

Originally posted by Odekahn
I'm just saying.

I just don't see how what you said necessarily contradicts what i'm saying.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I just don't see how what you said necessarily contradicts what i'm saying.

I wasn't really trying to contradict what you said, as much as embellish on it a bit. Tactics to a strategy is like acts in a school play. They are the pieces that make up the whole, while team leading is an entirely separate issue imo.

Originally posted by Trackz
the multiple engagements were a montage of them doing exactly that, inspiring the armies to fight, unless you're thinking of another specific one that you'd like to bring up.

It wasn't a matter of simply inspiring the troops. It was his strategic planning and leadership that won battles on multiple fronts in face of hopeless odds and when the collective Galactic civilization proved to be utterly outmatched.

No offense, but the fact that you don't know this when it was highlighted (Literally entire issues revolved around the Avengers Army implementing Captain America's tactical strategy) makes me doubt you read the event.

Originally posted by Odekahn
I wasn't really trying to contradict what you said, as much as embellish on it a bit. Tactics to a strategy is like acts in a school play. They are the pieces that make up the whole, while team leading is an entirely separate issue imo.

Oh, I agree.

All I was saying was that they aren't identical, so someone being good at strategy doesn't automatically make them good at tactics. you can be good at both, though.

Originally posted by Trackz
Not moreso than T'Challa who has been doing it since he's been a character. Moreover he led a country that has never been defeated in battle. Can't say the same for Utopia. Cyclops is good but he isn't nearly as smart as T'Challa and he used his fellow mutants as pawns. He's good for an immediate win, but after each battle you could see him losing his people.

And so has Cyclops.

Wakanda has been defeated or devastated in battle before, just like Utopia. And Cyclops showed during the Utopia-era such as during Dark Reign how capable he was in using ingenuity and whatever resources available to repel ridiculous odds.

You go from discussing strategy to scientific intelligence to loyalty. Which one is it? When it comes to strategic planning, Priest's Panther was pretty crazy but so was Utopia era Cyclops. T'Challa is more intelligent then Cyclops but that's irrelevant to this discussion. Cyclops being able to manipulate so many distinct personalities and powers to his advantage is NOT a knock on his strategic thinking. And he isn't the royal King of Mutants, his people are under no obligation to follow him or anything of the sort, hence the Schism. Not that T'Challa is perfect, we recently saw his royal guard, those SWORN to him desert him for doing what was necessary with the Illuminati. Which is very much the problem Scott had. Except Wolverine and co. weren't raised from birth with the sworn duty of serving only Scott.

Captain America >= Batman >= Deathstroke >= Black Panther >= Spiderman

Wow, Cyclops really is getting murdered in this thread.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Oh, I agree.

All I was saying was that they aren't identical, so someone being good at strategy doesn't automatically make them good at tactics. you can be good at both, though.



However being good at tactics does go a long way in helping one be good at strategy imo. It's a much more relevant issue than one's team leading prowess in relation to the question this thread is asking.

If we were simply talking about the ability to lead teams, my list would vary greatly from what I've stated here.

Originally posted by Odekahn


However being good at tactics does go a long way in helping one be good at strategy imo. It's a much more relevant issue than one's team leading prowess in relation to the question this thread is asking.

If we were simply talking about the ability to lead teams, my list would vary greatly from what I've stated here.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Trackz
the multiple engagements were a montage of them doing exactly that, inspiring the armies to fight, unless you're thinking of another specific one that you'd like to bring up. Reread Infinity.

People have no idea what a good leader is capable of. The best laid out strategies in the world are useless without a key leader to implement them.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
The best laid out strategies in the world are useless without a key leader to implement them.

This thread is asking who comes up with the best strategies, not who best implements them. Apples: Oranges.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It wasn't a matter of simply inspiring the troops. It was his strategic planning and leadership that won battles on multiple fronts in face of hopeless odds and when the collective Galactic civilization proved to be utterly outmatched.

No offense, but the fact that you don't know this when it was highlighted (Literally entire issues revolved around the Avengers Army implementing Captain America's tactical strategy) makes me doubt you read the event.

lets make this easy. what do you think captain america's plan in infinity was?

Originally posted by ODG
Reread Infinity. i suggest you do the same, cap's central plan was laid out in either issue 2 or 3 and everything follows from that. i suggest you read black panther, dr. doom, and the other characters captain america is being compared to strategically if you think this feat of his strategic planning puts him above them.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
And so has Cyclops.

Wakanda has been defeated or devastated in battle before, just like Utopia. And Cyclops showed during the Utopia-era such as during Dark Reign how capable he was in using ingenuity and whatever resources available to repel ridiculous odds.

You go from discussing strategy to scientific intelligence to loyalty. Which one is it? When it comes to strategic planning, Priest's Panther was pretty crazy but so was Utopia era Cyclops. T'Challa is more intelligent then Cyclops but that's irrelevant to this discussion. Cyclops being able to manipulate so many distinct personalities and powers to his advantage is NOT a knock on his strategic thinking. And he isn't the royal King of Mutants, his people are under no obligation to follow him or anything of the sort, hence the Schism. Not that T'Challa is perfect, we recently saw his royal guard, those SWORN to him desert him for doing what was necessary with the Illuminati. Which is very much the problem Scott had. Except Wolverine and co. weren't raised from birth with the sworn duty of serving only Scott.

I haven't made any arguments against Cyclops.

When has Wakanda been devastated on panel? The only time Wakanda has arguably been defeated was when Namor had the power of the phoenix, and even then that sent Wakanda into war with Atlantis...which Wakanda won.

Originally posted by Trackz
i suggest you do the same, cap's central plan was laid out in either issue 2 or 3 and everything follows from that. i suggest you read black panther, dr. doom, and the other characters captain america is being compared to strategically if you think this feat of his strategic planning puts him above them. So you didn't reread Infinity.

Captain America
Batman
Deathstroke
Black Panther
Spider-man

To mention some off the list, Starlord is very good.

And for Crossgen, Obregon Kaine. Managed to convincingly be in charge as a normal human even in a party with a herald-level god who doesn't like him, based on the strength of his tactical abilities.

Why is Spiderman on this list?

Originally posted by Tony Stark
Why is Spiderman on this list?

Because he has many times beaten opponents that outclass him by strategical thinking. Sandman, Electro, etc.

Maybe from the "Ends of the World" Arc he did alright launching a guerrilla intuitive