The DC Super Genius Hierarchy: What are Marvel's Analog's?

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Golgo13
What are Marvel's Analog's to DC's super geniuses? Please match them, if you can.

Earth based scientists
Alexander Luthor Jr.
Ultra Humanite
Ray Palmer
Lex Luthor
T.O. Morrow
Dr. Sivanna
Mr. Terrific
I.Q.
The Chief (Niles Caulder)
Professor Ivo
Will Magnus
Gizmo
Steel (John Henry Irons)
Professor Haley
Ted Kord
Batman
Prometheus
The Thinker
Calculator
Professor Stein
Toymaster (Hiro Okamura)
Ryan Choi


space based geniuses
Captain Comet
Adam Strange
The Engineer

Alien Super Geniuses

Metron
Brainiac
Saradath
Lyrl Dox
Vril Dox

Top tier geniuses

Superman
Orion
Martian Manhunter
Mr. Majestic

Time Travel geniuses

Rip Hunter
Epoch
Per Degaton
Chronos (Both Clinton & Walker)

psycho gundam
Doom, for all that stuff

Also: Doom > list

Golgo13
Originally posted by psycho gundam
Doom, for all that stuff

Also: Doom > list

Of who?

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by psycho gundam
Doom, for all that stuff

Also: Doom > list

thumb up

Golgo13
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
thumb up

thumb down

Please add some info.

dynamix
Originally posted by psycho gundam
Doom, for all that stuff

Also: Doom > list

thumb up thumb up

JakeTheBank
A lot of the people on that list are specialists in specific areas, whereas Doom dabbles in pretty much everything (genetics, robotics, computer science, time travel, space exploration, sorcery, engineering, politics, espionage, art/culture, etc.). And he often does so on a ridiculously high caliber.

Golgo13
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
A lot of the people on that list are specialists in specific areas, whereas Doom dabbles in pretty much everything (genetics, robotics, computer science, time travel, space exploration, sorcery, engineering, politics, espionage, art/culture, etc.). And he often does so on a ridiculously high caliber.

That's not what the thread is asking. For example, Ray Palmer and Hank Pym are close to each other or similar. I'd like for you to pick some Marvel geniuses and compare them to DC's. You said yourself that Marvel is smarter. Well, start comparing.

BTW, this is pure science. No magic.

JakeTheBank
I'm saying that Doom doesn't really have a counterpart (and not just because he's smarter). I guess the closest would be Lex, though.

Golgo13
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I'm saying that Doom doesn't really have a counterpart (and not just because he's smarter). I guess the closest would be Lex, though.

Beatbok's made a good post not too long ago that put Ultra Humanite the closest counter part. Even more so than Lex Luthor. If you look at Ultra's resume, it's pretty impressive.



http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t576268.html

As for the others, I think Niles Caulder/Tony Stark.

Mr. Terrific/Black Panther

Relic/High Evolutionary

abhilegend
Lex has way better feats than Ultra like creating Reactron who killed the entirety of new krypton, creating the clone Rao which took on several teams at once and was only defeated by Flamebird and Nightwing, outsmarting Brainiac, rebuking brainiac 5 at his inferior tech in final night, taking the power of omnipotent Zone Child which was above the likes of ****ing Death of Endless and so on. Ultra doesn't even compares.

Q99
The Engineer's from earth and spends much of her time in Earth or near it. She's basically DC's answer to Iron Man.

pym-ftw
Why am I bothering...


Earth based scientists
Alexander Luthor Jr. - Val Richards
Ultra Humanite - Modok
Ray Palmer - Scott Lang
Lex Luthor - Mr Sinister
T.O. Morrow - Scorpio
Dr. Sivanna - EggHead
Mr. Terrific - Tony Stark
I.Q. - Tinkerer
The Chief (Niles Caulder) - Hank Pym
Professor Ivo - Hiro Takachiro
Will Magnus - The Leader
Gizmo - Fixer
Steel (John Henry Irons) - Black Panther
Professor Haley - Electro
Ted Kord - Banner
Batman - Beast
Prometheus - Blizzard
The Thinker - Mad Thinker
Calculator - Cho
Professor Stein - Ted Sallis
Toymaster (Hiro Okamura) - Dr. Octopus
Ryan Choi - Bill Foster


space based geniuses
Captain Comet - Adam Warlock
Adam Strange - Starlord
The Engineer - High Evolutionary

Alien Super Geniuses

Metron - Kree Supreme Intelligence
Brainiac - Ultron
Saradath - Captain Marvell

Top tier geniuses laughing out loud

Superman - to variable
Orion - Doc Connors
Martian Manhunter - Prof X

Supermex
Reed Richards - Dr.Doom

Dc don't have a counter to them 2

abhilegend
Originally posted by pym-ftw
Why am I bothering...


Earth based scientists
Alexander Luthor Jr. - Val Richards
Ultra Humanite - Modok
Ray Palmer - Scott Lang
Lex Luthor - Mr Sinister
T.O. Morrow - Scorpio
Dr. Sivanna - EggHead
Mr. Terrific - Tony Stark
I.Q. - Tinkerer
The Chief (Niles Caulder) - Hank Pym
Professor Ivo - Hiro Takachiro
Will Magnus - The Leader
Gizmo - Fixer
Steel (John Henry Irons) - Black Panther
Professor Haley - Electro
Ted Kord - Banner
Batman - Beast
Prometheus - Blizzard
The Thinker - Mad Thinker
Calculator - Cho
Professor Stein - Ted Sallis
Toymaster (Hiro Okamura) - Dr. Octopus
Ryan Choi - Bill Foster


space based geniuses
Captain Comet - Adam Warlock
Adam Strange - Starlord
The Engineer - High Evolutionary

Alien Super Geniuses

Metron - Kree Supreme Intelligence
Brainiac - Ultron
Saradath - Captain Marvell

Top tier geniuses laughing out loud

Superman - to variable
Orion - Doc Connors
Martian Manhunter - Prof X
facepalm

Cogito
Originally posted by pym-ftw
Why am I bothering...


Earth based scientists
Alexander Luthor Jr. - Val Richards
Ultra Humanite - Modok
Ray Palmer - Scott Lang
Lex Luthor - Mr Sinister
T.O. Morrow - Scorpio
Dr. Sivanna - EggHead
Mr. Terrific - Tony Stark
I.Q. - Tinkerer
The Chief (Niles Caulder) - Hank Pym
Professor Ivo - Hiro Takachiro
Will Magnus - The Leader
Gizmo - Fixer
Steel (John Henry Irons) - Black Panther
Professor Haley - Electro
Ted Kord - Banner
Batman - Beast
Prometheus - Blizzard
The Thinker - Mad Thinker
Calculator - Cho
Professor Stein - Ted Sallis
Toymaster (Hiro Okamura) - Dr. Octopus
Ryan Choi - Bill Foster


space based geniuses
Captain Comet - Adam Warlock
Adam Strange - Starlord
The Engineer - High Evolutionary

Alien Super Geniuses

Metron - Kree Supreme Intelligence
Brainiac - Ultron
Saradath - Captain Marvell

Top tier geniuses laughing out loud

Superman - to variable
Orion - Doc Connors
Martian Manhunter - Prof X

I dunno why Abhi is facepalming, I'm impressed that you even tried. You could nitpick answers all you want, but obviously there aren't exact copies so there's wrong answers.

Supermex
Originally posted by pym-ftw
Why am I bothering...


Earth based scientists
Alexander Luthor Jr. - Val Richards
Ultra Humanite - Modok
Ray Palmer - Scott Lang
Lex Luthor - Mr Sinister
T.O. Morrow - Scorpio
Dr. Sivanna - EggHead
Mr. Terrific - Tony Stark
I.Q. - Tinkerer
The Chief (Niles Caulder) - Hank Pym
Professor Ivo - Hiro Takachiro
Will Magnus - The Leader
Gizmo - Fixer
Steel (John Henry Irons) - Black Panther
Professor Haley - Electro
Ted Kord - Banner
Batman - Beast
Prometheus - Blizzard
The Thinker - Mad Thinker
Calculator - Cho
Professor Stein - Ted Sallis
Toymaster (Hiro Okamura) - Dr. Octopus
Ryan Choi - Bill Foster


space based geniuses
Captain Comet - Adam Warlock
Adam Strange - Starlord
The Engineer - High Evolutionary

Alien Super Geniuses

Metron - Kree Supreme Intelligence
Brainiac - Ultron
Saradath - Captain Marvell

Top tier geniuses laughing out loud

Superman - to variable
Orion - Doc Connors
Martian Manhunter - Prof X






Good try Pym
good list

Golgo13
Originally posted by Supermex
Reed Richards - Dr.Doom

Dc don't have a counter to them 2

Alex Luthor Jr. And Ultra Humanite/Luthor, IMO.

Golgo13
Originally posted by Q99
The Engineer's from earth and spends much of her time in Earth or near it. She's basically DC's answer to Iron Man.

I'm talking about DCnU Engineer.

Golgo13
Originally posted by pym-ftw
Why am I bothering...


Earth based scientists
Alexander Luthor Jr. - Val Richards
Ultra Humanite - Modok
Ray Palmer - Scott Lang
Lex Luthor - Mr Sinister
T.O. Morrow - Scorpio
Dr. Sivanna - EggHead
Mr. Terrific - Tony Stark
I.Q. - Tinkerer
The Chief (Niles Caulder) - Hank Pym
Professor Ivo - Hiro Takachiro
Will Magnus - The Leader
Gizmo - Fixer
Steel (John Henry Irons) - Black Panther
Professor Haley - Electro
Ted Kord - Banner
Batman - Beast
Prometheus - Blizzard
The Thinker - Mad Thinker
Calculator - Cho
Professor Stein - Ted Sallis
Toymaster (Hiro Okamura) - Dr. Octopus
Ryan Choi - Bill Foster


space based geniuses
Captain Comet - Adam Warlock
Adam Strange - Starlord
The Engineer - High Evolutionary

Alien Super Geniuses

Metron - Kree Supreme Intelligence
Brainiac - Ultron
Saradath - Captain Marvell

Top tier geniuses laughing out loud

Superman - to variable
Orion - Doc Connors
Martian Manhunter - Prof X

Sweet list! Thanks, this is what I was looking for. I still think DC's is a deeper, more impressive list overall, though. stick out tongue

Supermex
Originally posted by Golgo13
Sweet list! Thanks, this is what I was looking for. I still think DC's is a deeper, more impressive list overall, though. stick out tongue




Never thought you say that lol

Golgo13

operator616
Originally posted by abhilegend
taking the power of omnipotent Zone Child which was above the likes of ****ing Death of Endless

thumb up Though only the term "universe" was mentioned. We know that Death of the endless functions on a bigger scale, we've seen her job extending to another multiverse even (lucifer's) -- which was shown prior to this showing. And considering that Lex halted Death's role as a whole, an argument could be made that his power was much larger in scope than what was stated.

psycho gundam
Originally posted by Supermex
Never thought you say that lol that's exactly what he'd say, though

Golgo13
Originally posted by operator616
thumb up Though only the term "universe" was mentioned. We know that Death of the endless functions on a bigger scale, we've seen her job extending to another multiverse even (lucifer's) -- which was shown prior to this showing. And considering that Lex halted Death's role as a whole, an argument could be made that his power was much larger in scope than what was stated.

How was the Phantom Zone God above Death? I don't think it was ever stated to be on that level of power.

operator616
^ Well, Lex stopped entropy across the universe (in an instant), which ended Death's role in it, we actually see her on panel (Action Comics #900):

http://i.imgur.com/Pg05Kto.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0Eo4MIY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rvzkSed.jpg

So id say that puts him above Death.

------------------------------

Death has a job to do in Lucifer's creation (which is completely separated from the normal multiverse), 2008 bio:

http://i.imgur.com/kjvSKnf.jpg?1

On panel, Death claims Elaine while she was in Lucifer's creation, in Lucifer #26:

http://i.imgur.com/THSyOEC.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/uL9VjG6.jpg

Mindset
Originally posted by psycho gundam
Doom, for all that stuff

Also: Doom > list http://media.tumblr.com/991257c4b91086696284aa00e7a21e6e/tumblr_inline_mixsb4fKQ01qz4rgp.gif

Golgo13
Originally posted by operator616
^ Well, Lex stopped entropy across the universe (in an instant), which ended Death's role in it, we actually see her on panel (Action Comics #900):

http://i.imgur.com/Pg05Kto.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0Eo4MIY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rvzkSed.jpg

So id say that puts him above Death.

------------------------------

Death has a job to do in Lucifer's creation (which is completely separated from the normal multiverse), 2008 bio:

http://i.imgur.com/kjvSKnf.jpg?1

On panel, Death claims Elaine while she was in Lucifer's creation, in Lucifer #26:

http://i.imgur.com/THSyOEC.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/uL9VjG6.jpg

Hmm, I guess. Where do you put the Phantom Zone God in DC's cosmic hierarchy?

operator616
^ It's kinda hard to tell, because we didn't see enough of him, but based on that one showing for Lex, it should put him above any of the endless.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Cogito
I dunno why Abhi is facepalming, I'm impressed that you even tried. You could nitpick answers all you want, but obviously there aren't exact copies so there's wrong answers.
Because the list is heavily skewed in favor of marvel characters?

abhilegend
Originally posted by operator616
thumb up Though only the term "universe" was mentioned. We know that Death of the endless functions on a bigger scale, we've seen her job extending to another multiverse even (lucifer's) -- which was shown prior to this showing. And considering that Lex halted Death's role as a whole, an argument could be made that his power was much larger in scope than what was stated.
Yeah, that showing was sick.

Golgo13
Originally posted by abhilegend
Because the list is heavily skewed in favor of marvel characters?

Ehh, not really. The only ones that Marvel could be above (with Pym's list) are Tony Stark, Panther, Banner, and High Evolutionary.

Golgo13
Originally posted by operator616
^ It's kinda hard to tell, because we didn't see enough of him, but based on that one showing for Lex, it should put him above any of the endless.

Wasn't Lex limited to what he could do with that type of power?

operator616
^ At first, the zone child was limiting his power, but then eventually he had full control over it (hence why he was able to stop entropy across creation). After that, he fought superman, and the harder he tried to destroy superman, the more power he lost; which left him completely powerless at the end.

Golgo13
Originally posted by operator616
^ At first, the zone child was limiting his power, but then eventually he had full control over it (hence why he was able to stop entropy across creation). After that, he fought superman, and the harder he tried to destroy superman, the more power he lost; which left him completely powerless at the end.

That's what I meant. Why did he lose power when he fought Superman?

abhilegend
Originally posted by Golgo13
Ehh, not really. The only ones that Marvel could be above (with Pym's list) are Tony Stark, Panther, Banner, and High Evolutionary.
Nope.

Golgo13
Originally posted by abhilegend
Nope.

Based on? big grin

abhilegend
Originally posted by Golgo13
Based on? big grin
I've actually read up on this characters. Atom=Scott Lang? GTFO.

Golgo13
Originally posted by abhilegend
I've actually read up on this characters. Atom=Scott Lang? GTFO.

So, Scott Lang>>>Ray Palmer? If so, why do you think that?

Cogito
Originally posted by abhilegend
Because the list is heavily skewed in favor of marvel characters?

There aren't perfect analogues? erm

ODG
Originally posted by Golgo13
What are Marvel's Analog's to DC's super geniuses? Please match them, if you can.

Earth based scientists
Alexander Luthor Jr. - Adult Franklin Richards
Ultra Humanite - Arnim Zola
Ray Palmer - Hank Pym
Lex Luthor - Mandarin
T.O. Morrow - Apocalypse
Dr. Sivanna - Mr. Sinister
Mr. Terrific - Tony Stark
I.Q. - M.O.D.O.K.
The Chief (Niles Caulder) - Hank McCoy
Professor Ivo - Wizard
Will Magnus - Forge
Gizmo - Tinkerer
Steel (John Henry Irons) - Madison Jeffries
Professor Haley - Reed Richards
Ted Kord - Scott Lang
Batman - Superior Spider-Man (since having merged with Parker's mind)
Prometheus - T'Challa
The Thinker - Leader
Calculator - Mad Thinker
Professor Stein - Bruce Banner
Toymaster (Hiro Okamura) - Amadeus Cho
Ryan Choi - Prodigy


space based geniuses
Captain Comet - Adam Warlock
Adam Strange - Noh-Varr
The Engineer - Vision

Alien Super Geniuses

Metron - High Evolutionary
Brainiac - Ultron
Sardath - Mentor
Lyrl Dox - Broo
Vril Dox - Maximus

Top tier geniuses

Superman - Hyperion
Orion - Thena
Martian Manhunter - Silver Surfer
Mr. Majestic - Blue Marvel

Time Travel geniuses

Rip Hunter - Nathaniel Richards
Epoch - Immortus
Per Degaton - Kang
Chronos (Both Clinton & Walker) - Zarkko

Golgo13
^^ Nice list, ODG.

Golgo13
BTW, I'd say Alec Holland/Beast would be better.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Golgo13
So, Scott Lang>>>Ray Palmer? If so, why do you think that?
laughing out loudOriginally posted by Cogito
There aren't perfect analogues? erm
That's why I disagreed.

Golgo13
Originally posted by abhilegend
laughing out loud
That's why I disagreed.

laughing out loud See, I can laugh too.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Golgo13
laughing out loud See, I can laugh too.
Then laugh at your threads.

Golgo13
Originally posted by abhilegend
Then laugh at your threads.

Nope.

operator616
Originally posted by Golgo13
That's what I meant. Why did he lose power when he fought Superman?

The zone child made sure that the power wasn't to be used in a negative way (like destroying superman), and that's exactly what Lex did:

http://i.imgur.com/jrHXiWK.jpg

Prof. T.C McAbe
As for Doom, he is an overall Genius but in special fields there are indeed people who are better then him imo. I wouldn't say he is the most intelligent just one of the most versatile.

Lex would be his counterpart in DC imo, being inferior in some fields and superior in others.

And Superman is also an allround science genius, robotics, physics etc like his father, even beyond Lex and Doom. He just seldom uses it because of his powers.

And Batman > all in DC and Marvel. ^^

Epicurus
Originally posted by ODG

How is Luthor Jr equitable to Adult Frank?

abhilegend
Originally posted by Epicurus
How is Luthor Jr equitable to Adult Frank?
Alex created a machine that brought back the multiverse and manipulated pretty much everyone in DCU. Can't get any better than that.

ODG
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
As for Doom, he is an overall Genius but in special fields there are indeed people who are better then him imo. I wouldn't say he is the most intelligent just one of the most versatile.

Lex would be his counterpart in DC imo, being inferior in some fields and superior in others.

And Superman is also an allround science genius, robotics, physics etc like his father, even beyond Lex and Doom. He just seldom uses it because of his powers.

And Batman > all in DC and Marvel. ^^ Lex has to stand on a high-chair just to kiss Doom's a$$.

And Kryptonian tech, on average, is more sophisticated than Earth tech... if we're talking iPads and microwaves. But based on the highest Earth-based comic book tech, Kryptonian tech isn't sh1t to comic Earth tech.

Superman, Orion, Surfer, Thena, Majestic, J'onn... they don't belong in this conversation. They're all super-geniuses by virtue of their respective cultures. Krypton, New Genesis, Zenn La, Olympia, Khera, Mars. Not because it was earned through personal scholarship or their own ingenuity. That's the difference between Kal El and Jor El. Between Orion and Himon. Etc., etc. The only exception apparently being Blue Marvel, Dr. Adam Brashear. Originally posted by Epicurus
How is Luthor Jr equitable to Adult Frank? Adult Franklin Richard sh1ts on Alexander Luthor Jr. in every way possible if it makes you feel any better about it. They're just similar in being plot devices.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
As for Doom, he is an overall Genius but in special fields there are indeed people who are better then him imo. I wouldn't say he is the most intelligent just one of the most versatile.

Lex would be his counterpart in DC imo, being inferior in some fields and superior in others.

And Superman is also an allround science genius, robotics, physics etc like his father, even beyond Lex and Doom. He just seldom uses it because of his powers.

And Batman > all in DC and Marvel. ^^

Doom's a genius of the highest order, though, both in terms of feats and status. But Doom's breadth of knowledge extends to pretty much everything and to the highest degree. To that end, I can't think of a single person who's Doom's counterpart outside of just picking Lex because he's the smartest Earthbound bad guy scientist. And which fields would Lex be superior to Doom in?

Superman has some good tech and intelligence feats, sure. Him being across the board smarter than Lex is...unlikely (he has the potential to be if we were to completely alter his character and upbringing, though). He most certainly isn't smarter than Doom, though.

Batman's more or less a match for T'Challa.

Originally posted by ODG
Lex has to stand on a high-chair just to kiss Doom's a$$.

thumb up

Golgo13
Not familiar with Adult. How does he $hit on Alex?

psycho gundam
shits on him without even removing his pants

Prof. T.C McAbe
If you guys want to believe this, more Power to you but Lex is a match and would be in any crossover for doom. PC Lex would even laugh at Dooms Intelligence. Superman is beyond humans if you consider raw intellect, with his well Superbrain He can become an expert in any field within minutes and would surpass both.

wink

Epicurus
Originally posted by ODG
Adult Franklin Richard sh1ts on Alexander Luthor Jr. in every way possible if it makes you feel any better about it. They're just similar in being plot devices.
No, I meant about them being super-genius analogs. TBH, I see adult Val belonging more to this list than Addult Frank. /shrug

ODG
Originally posted by Epicurus
No, I meant about them being super-genius analogs. TBH, I see adult Val belonging more to this list than Addult Frank. /shrug Adult Franklin Richards is a super-genius. He understands how to build universes from scratch (and has the power to do it), yet has a more intimate and intuitive understanding of the confluence of events and timelines that shape the Marvel Multiverse more than Nathaniel Richards does, and is basically an Abstract on par with Galactus in both power and importance.

Also Valeria admitted outright she was nothing compared to Franklin:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Franklin02.jpg Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
If you guys want to believe this We do. And Lex would be blessed by Doom farting in his general direction.

Epicurus
Originally posted by ODG
Adult Franklin Richards is a super-genius. He understands how to build universes from scratch (and has the power to do it), yet has a more intimate and intuitive understanding of the confluence of events and timelines that shape the Marvel Multiverse more than Nathaniel Richards does, and is basically an Abstract on par with Galactus in both power and importance.

Also Valeria admitted outright she was nothing compared to Franklin:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Franklin02.jpg
I don't count him as a super-genius in the same vein as someone like Reed or Doom. He has this knowledge thanks in large part to his abilities and the vast billions of years worth experience that he(as a character from the distant future) has attained. Of course he understands the way the Marvel Multiverse works better than Nate does, because Nate is, in the grand scheme of things, just an insignificant insect compared to a cosmically aware Galactus-level entity. Though I am not sure he's on par with Galactus in terms of their respective importance to the universe.

Nah, I doubt his ego-stroking of his younger self counts as him being smarter than Val. IIRC, Future Val is the same person who stepped into both Reed's and Doom's shoes to turn the pocket reality of the Bridge into a base for spreading the good work. "Here I can build". That kind of line truly indicates the girl who is supposed to be the daughter of Reed Ridhards and the goddaughter of Doctor Doom.

Anyways, agree to disagree if you still want to think of him as a super-genius, but I agree that Luthor Jr. is nothing compared to Adult Frank. Probably nothing compared to Val either in terms of pure smarts.

Golgo13
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
If you guys want to believe this, more Power to you but Lex is a match and would be in any crossover for doom. PC Lex would even laugh at Dooms Intelligence. Superman is beyond humans if you consider raw intellect, with his well Superbrain He can become an expert in any field within minutes and would surpass both.

wink

thumb up Pre-Crisis Lex would be a good match for Reed Richards himself. Same with PC Ultra Humanite and maybe Sivanaa.

Anyway, I believe TO Morrow was able to understand how to unlock the hidden space between dimensions while he was only 14. And I wouldn't put him in the league of Alex, who would be a good match for Reed.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/AL_zps028629bd.jpg

ODG
Originally posted by Epicurus
I don't count him as a super-genius in the same vein as someone like Reed or Doom. He has this knowledge thanks in large part to his abilities and the vast billions of years worth experience that he(as a character from the distant future) has attained. Of course he understands the way the Marvel Multiverse works better than Nate does, because Nate is, in the grand scheme of things, just an insignificant insect compared to a cosmically aware Galactus-level entity. Though I am not sure he's on par with Galactus in terms of their respective importance to the universe. If you have any proof that adult Franklin would be a drooling moron if he were depowered of all his abilities, then by all means, share it with us. Also, if you have proof that adult Franklin is billions of years old but adult Valeria is not, also post that. Originally posted by Epicurus
Nah, I doubt his ego-stroking of his younger self counts as him being smarter than Val. IIRC, Future Val is the same person who stepped into both Reed's and Doom's shoes to turn the pocket reality of the Bridge into a base for spreading the good work. "Here I can build". That kind of line truly indicates the girl who is supposed to be the daughter of Reed Ridhards and the goddaughter of Doctor Doom. If you have any proof that Valeria or Franklin were lying to his younger self instead of encouraging him with the actual truth of the matter, then by all means, share it with us. Originally posted by Epicurus
Anyways, agree to disagree if you still want to think of him as a super-genius, but I agree that Luthor Jr. is nothing compared to Adult Frank. Probably nothing compared to Val either in terms of pure smarts. Your belief that Valeria should be the only smart Richards' kid seems to be based on nothing more than a forced duality you projected onto them rather than anything in the comics. They're both Richards' kids. But Franklin is Richards' son in heart and Valeria is Doom's daughter in heart. I don't even get what Valeria (let alone adult Valeria) has done to even compare to adult Franklin tutoring kid Franklin on how to build universes and fix suns, how to save his father from certain death despite universal constants working against his fate, how to tunnel back from terminal space-time, etc.

Epicurus
Originally posted by ODG
If you have any proof that adult Franklin would be a drooling moron if he were depowered of all his abilities, then by all means, share it with us. Also, if you have proof that adult Franklin is billions of years old but adult Valeria is not, also post that.

If you have any proof that Valeria or Franklin were lying to his younger self instead of encouraging him with the actual truth of the matter, then by all means, share it with us.

Your belief that Valeria should be the only smart Richards' kid seems to be based on nothing more than a forced duality you projected onto them rather than anything in the comics. They're both Richards' kids. But Franklin is Richards' son in heart and Valeria is Doom's daughter in heart. I don't even get what Valeria (let alone adult Valeria) has done to even compare to adult Franklin tutoring kid Franklin on how to build universes and fix suns, how to save his father from certain death despite universal constants working against his fate, how to tunnel back from terminal space-time, etc.
Dumb red herring. Because somehow, someway, saying that he isn't a comic book super-genius equates to claiming that he's a drooling retard sans his special rw powers. Adult Frank already implied that kind of an age in his convo with Galactus. Val is a normal human as well. Think.

What? Him doing an ego-stroke of his younger self by creating an astral copy of his sister to proclaim how he's the great god king beyond everything actually counts as proof of his intellectual superiority over her?

My belief that Valeria should be the only smart Richards kid isn't based on some forced duality, it is based on actual comic book facts and the history of these characters. Franklin has traditionally been the plot-device powerhouse of the FF's backup characters. Val has similarly been the plot device scientist/genius-supreme. Yes, because the design of a star or a universe is so complicated that it actually counts as a feat where comic book supergeniuses are involved. Apparently, that is why kid Frank needed special tutoring from Adult Frank when he was going about building all those pocket universes as easily as a kid makes a sand castle. Oh wait, he didn't.

ODG
Originally posted by Epicurus
Dumb red herring. Because somehow, someway, saying that he isn't a comic book super-genius equates to claiming that he's a drooling retard sans his special rw powers. Then don't equate his genius with his powers with an equally dumb red herring. Absent-minded comment invites same. Too bad you're not self-conscious enough to realize it. Originally posted by Epicurus
Adult Frank already implied that kind of an age in his convo with Galactus. Val is a normal human as well. Think. Think what? Just because adult Franklin knows what will happen in a billion years doesn't mean he is a billion years old. Your implication is based on nothing but flimsy projection. Franklin and Valeria have been inseparable ever since the duo showed up in Fantastic Four #581 alongside Nathaniel Richards. Nathaniel isn't billions of years old either, btw. So what's the implication there? If you want to prove otherwise, post evidence. Originally posted by Epicurus
What? Him doing an ego-stroke of his younger self by creating an astral copy of his sister to proclaim how he's the great god king beyond everything actually counts as proof of his intellectual superiority over her? That wasn't an astral copy. That was Valeria. Reread the comics. Just because you can't accept the simple import of plain English doesn't mean you have a constructive argument to make. You've presented me nothing to even counter. Here's another scan you can ineffectually and impotently try to poopoo away with absolutely no evidence:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Franklin03.jpg Originally posted by Epicurus
My belief that Valeria should be the only smart Richards kid isn't based on some forced duality, it is based on actual comic book facts and the history of these characters. Facts? What facts? Non-existent facts of which you can't even manage to cite, much less competently allude to? Thanks for absolutely no evidence, once again. I couldn't have punctuated my point any better. Originally posted by Epicurus
Franklin has traditionally been the plot-device powerhouse of the FF's backup characters. Val has similarly been the plot device scientist/genius-supreme. Yes, because the design of a star or a universe is so complicated that it actually counts as a feat where comic book supergeniuses are involved. Apparently, that is why kid Frank needed special tutoring from Adult Frank when he was going about building all those pocket universes as easily as a kid makes a sand castle. Oh wait, he didn't. If you're trying to conflate kid Franklin and kid Valeria with adult Franklin and adult Valeria, congratulations, you did so in the most transparently obvious way possible. Focus before bumbling around in this thread trying to address me. "Insisting" that the design of a star and a fully-functioning universe is beneath adult Valeria's genius, isn't "arguing" or "proving" it. We both know you haven't shown sh1t to support adult Valeria's supposedly superior genius, anyway. And I'll point out your abject failure in this regard as many times as it'll take for it to sink in. You can thank me for it later.

Epicurus
Originally posted by ODG
Then don't equate his genius with his powers with an equally dumb red herring. Absent-minded comment invites same. Too bad you're not self-conscious enough to realize it.
Three sentences later, your own words betray you:
Originally posted by ODG
adult Franklin knows what will happen in a billion years
Originally posted by ODG
Think what? Just because adult Franklin knows what will happen in a billion years doesn't mean he is a billion years old. Your implication is based on nothing but flimsy projection. Franklin and Valeria have been inseparable ever since the duo showed up in Fantastic Four #581 alongside Nathaniel Richards. Nathaniel isn't billions of years old either, btw. So what's the implication there? If you want to prove otherwise, post evidence.
Them being inseparable siblings is about as relevant as Justin Bieber getting molested by Jenny Mccarthy here. Which is not relevant at all. Adult Frank is an immortal time hopper who's pretty much aware of everything that'll happen up until the end of the universe. Him casually talking to Galactus about what comes next billions of years from now, as if he's already witnessed it or experienced it, speaks for itself.
Originally posted by ODG
That wasn't an astral copy. That was Valeria. Reread the comics. Just because you can't accept the simple import of plain English doesn't mean you have a constructive argument to make. You've presented me nothing to even counter. Here's another scan you can ineffectually and impotently try to poopoo away with absolutely no evidence:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Franklin03.jpg
Did you not read Fantastic Four #611? Honest to god question. Because so far, all's you've been doing is posting random scans from Hickman-written issues I've already read(and discussed in great detail with other posters) in the past, none of which actually contribute to your position in this debate. Because unless you can actually produce hard evidence that Val just decided to randomly pop away from whatever important work she was doing on the Bridge, in order to aid in Frank's ego-stroke of his younger self, this is quite a desperate amount of reaching almost on the level of some of the sh1t that h1 pulls off on a regular basis. On another note, this reminds of the time when you made a clown of yourself in the Ownage thread by oafishly dismissing Hickman's comments regarding FF#604 and proclaiming how adult Frank had died and got resurrected in that issue. The comedy that followed up was too much fun to watch.
Originally posted by ODG
Facts? What facts? Non-existent facts of which you can't even manage to cite, much less competently allude to? Thanks for absolutely no evidence, once again. I couldn't have punctuated my point any better.
Lolwut? So you're telling me you don't even know about the historical portrayal of the Richards siblings being brawn and brain personified? That you're never actually read even a single issue of Fantastic Four? I have a hard time believing that, considering you're the same fellow who made the most comprehensive Doom Respect Thread to be found on the internet, but whatever.
Originally posted by ODG

If you're trying to conflate kid Franklin and kid Valeria with adult Franklin and adult Valeria, congratulations, you did so in the most transparently obvious way possible. Focus before bumbling around in this thread trying to address me. "Insisting" that the design of a star and a fully-functioning universe is beneath adult Valeria's genius, isn't "arguing" or "proving" it. We both know you haven't shown sh1t to support adult Valeria's supposedly superior genius, anyway. And I'll point out your abject failure in this regard as many times as it'll take for it to sink in. You can thank me for it later.
Adult Val is the same character as junior Val from Hickman's series. Just as adult Frank is the same as junior Frank. All their feats are interchangeable. Aren't you also the same guy who once claimed how Franklin was 2 steps from being a retard and yet he easily designs universes? Tutoring his younger self in doing stuff he can already do is a non-feat. I suggest you stop trying to delude yourself into thinking that doing that makes adult Frank a super-genius in the same manner as someone like Doom or Reed.

Mr Master
^^ Valeria Richards is smarter than Franklin, that's a definite.

Powerwise, she's no match for em, but she did do half the work resurrecting Galactus. meh

Sundipped
^Thanks for the brief intermission Mr.M now back to the fireworks.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/gallery/popcorn-gifs/1863082_o.gif

pym-ftw
Originally posted by abhilegend
Because the list is heavily skewed in favor of marvel characters? What the f**k? how do you skew a personality test? It's not based on power but a close analog of the character across companys.

That's like me saying Naruto is heavily based on the Dragonball series, and you saying nope, based soley on power levels...

abhilegend
Originally posted by pym-ftw
What the f**k? how do you skew a personality test? It's not based on power but a close analog of the character across companys.

That's like me saying Naruto is heavily based on the Dragonball series, and you saying nope, based soley on power levels...
Well in that case, apologies. I thought you were ranking them in terms of intelligence.

ODG
Originally posted by Epicurus
Three sentences later, your own words betray you: You act like you pointed out some sort of inconsistency, but you haven't. Franklin being able to see/know the future does not mean he actually lived out that future. How many times are you going to completely fail to produce any actual evidence that Franklin is billions of years old. Originally posted by Epicurus
Them being inseparable siblings is about as relevant as Justin Bieber getting molested by Jenny Mccarthy here. Which is not relevant at all. Adult Frank is an immortal time hopper who's pretty much aware of everything that'll happen up until the end of the universe. Him casually talking to Galactus about what comes next billions of years from now, as if he's already witnessed it or experienced it, speaks for itself. Being aware =/= being billions of years old. And that simple fact speaks for itself. For someone who wants to play up Franklin's supernatural abilities as being primarily responsible for so much of his intellect, you appear constitutionally incapable of assuming that those same supernatural abilities are primarily responsible or so much of his knowledge of the future. Your hypocrisy both astounds and abounds. Originally posted by Epicurus
Did you not read Fantastic Four #611? Honest to god question. Because so far, all's you've been doing is posting random scans from Hickman-written issues I've already read(and discussed in great detail with other posters) in the past, none of which actually contribute to your position in this debate. Trying to characterize them as "random" scans is both misleading and pointless. These scans pretty much prove outright that Valeria has admitted several times, that Franklin is smarter than her. They directly address and prove this issue. Whereas your simple insistence otherwise hasn't remedied the shocking incompetence you've approached me with in this thread. You have no evidence, no feats, nothing but butthurt. Over absolutely nothing. Valeria talks about her being super smart on two different occasions, and outright concedes she's got nothing to Franklin. Here's Valeria trying to show her supergenius again and... nope, wait. Franklin already knew that:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Franklin04.jpg

Seriously, when are you even going to give us a sniff of this overpowering intelligence or feats of genius that Valeria possesses over Franklin? Or are you just too embarrassed by how clear-cut this non-issue is when you actually read the comics and pay attention? Originally posted by Epicurus
Because unless you can actually produce hard evidence that Val just decided to randomly pop away from whatever important work she was doing on the Bridge, in order to aid in Frank's ego-stroke of his younger self, this is quite a desperate amount of reaching almost on the level of some of the sh1t that h1 pulls off on a regular basis. I don't have to prove anything other than the fact that Valeria appears out of a portal in Franklin's playtime universe, confirms what adult Franklin says to him herself, proceeds to have a conversation with them, is handed a sandwich to eat by Franklin, and spends a dino-cowboy-jello adventure with them. Somehow, a fake holographic projection appearing out of a portal, eating, adventuring, carrying an ongoing conversation, and adult Franklin lying through his teeth to his younger self somehow makes more sense to you. What exactly has struck you about adult Franklin throughout the entirety of Hickman's run as being a dishonest, ego-stroking, braggart who doesn't actually tell the truth of the matter? Please post some evidence of this- oh, wait. If past is prologue, you aren't going to show sh1t. Again.

The absurdity of your premise underlies the transparent oafishness that you've approached this complete tragedy of a discussion with. Originally posted by Epicurus
On another note, this reminds of the time when you made a clown of yourself in the Ownage thread by oafishly dismissing Hickman's comments regarding FF#604 and proclaiming how adult Frank had died and got resurrected in that issue. The comedy that followed up was too much fun to watch. And this utter non-sequitur confirms it. By all means, deflect onto writer interviews on a completely separate topic because the current one is too hot to handle for you now. Originally posted by Epicurus
Lolwut? So you're telling me you don't even know about the historical portrayal of the Richards siblings being brawn and brain personified? That you're never actually read even a single issue of Fantastic Four? I have a hard time believing that, considering you're the same fellow who made the most comprehensive Doom Respect Thread to be found on the internet, but whatever. That's the kids. Not the adults. As proven time and time again throughout the entirety of the Hickman run. At every turn you might have thought Nathaniel or Valeria were the minds behind the scheme, Hickman reminded you that it was always Franklin. Franklin and Valeria aren't a brawn/brains team -- where brains and brawn must be mutually dispositive of each other -- they're the inheritors of Reed' and Doom's legacies. And they both grow into their roles in full. If you missed that, you're shockingly dumb. Worse, if you do understand that and you're just trying to argue otherwise because you hate being proven wrong in so complete a manner, you're a colossal goon. Originally posted by Epicurus
Adult Val is the same character as junior Val from Hickman's series. Just as adult Frank is the same as junior Frank. All their feats are interchangeable. No, sh1t, Sherlock. Since when have I insinuated otherwise? Stop pretending to be a complete moron about simple English. You're not stupid enough to be able to sell it. Just butthurt enough to fake it.

And what would such an insinuation even change in the bottom-line? What the phuck has kid Valeria done that compares to adult Franklin tutoring universe-building mechanics, formulating the plan to save his father from certain death despite universal constants working against his fate, etc.? She built a light saber that one time? We know you are constitutionally incapable of actually discussing these amazing intelligence feats that Valeria possesses over Franklin, because they just don't exist. So what exactly am I arguing against anyway beyond your baseless insistence otherwise? Nothing, it seems.

pym-ftw
Originally posted by abhilegend
Well in that case, apologies. I thought you were ranking them in terms of intelligence. its all good, it would be easier to rank by tiers than intelligence.

Golgo13
Originally posted by pym-ftw
its all good, it would be easier to rank by tiers than intelligence.

How would you rank the tiers? My top list for DC: Super genius, Polymaths (Cream of the crop):
Alex Luthor Jr. (Pre-Crisis and Post)
Batman 1M
Superman 1M
Atom 1M
Ray Palmer
The Chief
Lex Luthor (Pre-Crisis and Post)
Ultra Humanite
TO Morrow
Dr. Sivana
Captain Comet (Pre-Crisis)
Brainiacs (All)
Metron
Rip Hunter
Epoch

pym-ftw
Reality warping/ universe busting

Ability to prep to skyfather +

Skyfather

Trans

Herald

Then you have fields.

Engineering
Robotics
Biology
Physics
Time travel
Magic
Medical
Radiation
Psycology
....

Some characters like Mr. Sinister are among the best in their field but are useless in others.

So its harder to place guys in concrete tiers

Galan007
thumb up

OBD's a phucking ruh-tard.

pym-ftw
Bump for an update soon

pym-ftw
Why am I bothering...2.0
Power level version

Earth based scientists
Alexander Luthor Jr. - Val Richards
Ultra Humanite - Graviton
Ray Palmer - Scott Lang
Lex Luthor - Reed
T.O. Morrow - Kang
Dr. Sivanna - EggHead
Mr. Terrific - Doc Ock
I.Q. - Tinkerer
The Chief (Niles Caulder) - Hank Pym
Professor Ivo - Arnim Zola
Will Magnus - Mr. Sinister
Gizmo - Fixer
Steel (John Henry Irons) - Black Panther
Professor Haley - Electro
Ted Kord - Gremlin
Batman - Moon Knight
Prometheus - Beetle
The Thinker - Mad Thinker
Calculator - Cho
Professor Stein - Banner
Toymaster (Hiro Okamura) - Stark
Ryan Choi - Bill Foster


space based geniuses
Captain Comet - Adam Warlock
Adam Strange - Forge
The Engineer - High Evolutionary

Alien Super Geniuses

Metron - Kree Supreme Intelligence
Brainiac - Ultron

Top tier geniuses laughing out loud

Superman - Blue Marvel
Martian Manhunter - Prof X

Golgo13
Originally posted by pym-ftw
Why am I bothering...2.0
Power level version

Earth based scientists
Alexander Luthor Jr. - Val Richards
Ultra Humanite - Graviton
Ray Palmer - Scott Lang
Lex Luthor - Reed
T.O. Morrow - Kang
Dr. Sivanna - EggHead
Mr. Terrific - Doc Ock
I.Q. - Tinkerer
The Chief (Niles Caulder) - Hank Pym
Professor Ivo - Arnim Zola
Will Magnus - Mr. Sinister
Gizmo - Fixer
Steel (John Henry Irons) - Black Panther
Professor Haley - Electro
Ted Kord - Gremlin
Batman - Moon Knight
Prometheus - Beetle
The Thinker - Mad Thinker
Calculator - Cho
Professor Stein - Banner
Toymaster (Hiro Okamura) - Stark
Ryan Choi - Bill Foster


space based geniuses
Captain Comet - Adam Warlock
Adam Strange - Forge
The Engineer - High Evolutionary

Alien Super Geniuses

Metron - Kree Supreme Intelligence
Brainiac - Ultron

Top tier geniuses laughing out loud

Superman - Blue Marvel
Martian Manhunter - Prof X

With the comparisons you made, which side would you give the edge to?

pym-ftw
Depends what Metron is carrying, and where you view the supreme intelligence to be.

panthergod
Moon Knight comparable to Batman?














Really?

JabberWaki
Originally posted by panthergod
Moon Knight comparable to Batman?














Really? I found that pretty laughing laughing as well. I think the closest analogy to Batman in Marvel U is Black Panther, but TBH Batman's intelligence feats are better than T'Challas.

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