DoS Rematch

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Brockalizer
This is a rematch of the epic first battle between Superman and Doomsday. Both combatants are the same versions that appeared in DoS. However, this time PIS and CIS are both off, meaning that the outcome hasn't been pre-ordained by the writers. Is this version of the Man of Steel capable of defeating the monster or is this version of Doomsday too much for this version of Superman?

Stipulations: No BFR, fight is to the death. Sun dipping is off limits, as is any tech that might exist in the fortress or JLA HQ, so no miracle machine, phantom zone projector, ect.

h1a8
TBH I don't know how in the phuck Superman beat DD. Nothing was able to hurt him. I was thinking it was PIS that he beat him. I mean he managed to hurt DD for the first time at the very end of the comic where Superman was near death. So Superman letting loose is more than 5 times as powerful as his normal self. WTF?

Anyway Superman wins by letting loose in the very beginning.

Delta1938
Originally posted by h1a8
TBH I don't know how in the phuck Superman beat DD. Nothing was able to hurt him. I was thinking it was PIS that he beat him. I mean he managed to hurt DD for the first time at the very end of the comic where Superman was near death. So Superman letting loose is more than 5 times as powerful as his normal self. WTF?

Anyway Superman wins by letting loose in the very beginning.

Post-CRISIS Superman's mind limited his powers. Byrne and I think Wolfman too established in early Post-CRISIS stories that Superman's mind has an effect on his powers, like he lost his powers due to amnesia(yet still while powerless and amnesic, out-performed Silver Surfer against Parademons big grin ). There's several examples of this, both clear and ambiguous. Loeb's run leading up to and including OUR WORLDS AT WAR is probably the best example. Mongul II was training Superman specifically to overcome the mental blocks, and you compare the fight of Superman/Mongul II vs an Imperiex Probe all the way through to AOS 595(I think it was) where the narration shows Superman's dropped the mental blocks, and you see him owning Imperiex Probes left and right with ease. And the narration shows he's been doing this for at least hours, perhaps days.

Superman dropped mental blocks when Doomsday threatened Lois. One example of this is comparing he team effort energy attack that was worthless, to after Doomsday threatened Lois, him slamming Doomsday into a building with a burst of heat vision. Going from hurting your hands punching Doomsday to beating Doomsday to death while injured kinda shows the power jump Superman had.

quanchi112
DD wins.

Brockalizer
Originally posted by h1a8
TBH I don't know how in the phuck Superman beat DD. Nothing was able to hurt him. I was thinking it was PIS that he beat him. I mean he managed to hurt DD for the first time at the very end of the comic where Superman was near death. So Superman letting loose is more than 5 times as powerful as his normal self. WTF?

Anyway Superman wins by letting loose in the very beginning. Doomsday seemed to be tanking some serious damage. Would dialing it up to 11 in the very beginning make Superman fatigue faster? I was thinking that his best shot would be to take Guy's Qwardian ring and use it to amp himself.

-Pr-
DC flat out stated years later that DD only lasted as long as he did because Superman held back.

DD didn't.

Superman would win.

psycho gundam
^ retcon. he got legitimately taken to his limit back then by a peer. his durability doesn't fall under the "holding back" umbrella anyway.

abhilegend
Doomsday was above average superman. Superman still killed him first.Originally posted by psycho gundam
^ retcon. he got legitimately taken to his limit back then by a peer. his durability doesn't fall under the "holding back" umbrella anyway.
It does. Every physical aspect of superman increases when he stops holding back.

psycho gundam
well you'd be the guy to have it so lets see the kal-fax

Brockalizer
Originally posted by abhilegend
Doomsday was above average superman. Superman still killed him first.
It does. Every physical aspect of superman increases when he stops holding back. Wrong. If that were true then his durability would increase as well when he stops holding back.

abhilegend
Originally posted by psycho gundam
well you'd be the guy to have it so lets see the kal-fax
Will do.Originally posted by Brockalizer
Wrong. If that were true then his durability would increase as well when he stops holding back.
It does. Superman can become total human if he forgets his powers.

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/02-%20Adventures%20of%20Superman%20426/?action=view&current=AdventuresOfSuperman426p05.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/02-%20Adventures%20of%20Superman%20426/?action=view&current=AdventuresOfSuperman426p06.jpg

And his stats fluctuate with the belief in his powers.

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_03.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_04.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_06.jpg

When darkseid says he's nearly as strong as him, he became just that strong.

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_07.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_08.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_09.jpg

And when he is freed from mental control, he smacks Darkseid around like a two bit whore.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/darkseid/ActionComics586b.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/darkseid/ActionComics586c.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/darkseid/ActionComics586d.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/darkseid/ActionComics586e.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/darkseid/ActionComics586f.jpg


So superman can go from human to near darkseid level to above darkseid level based on his mental state.

Brockalizer
Originally posted by abhilegend
Will do.
It does. Superman can become total human if he forgets his powers.

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/02-%20Adventures%20of%20Superman%20426/?action=view&current=AdventuresOfSuperman426p05.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/02-%20Adventures%20of%20Superman%20426/?action=view&current=AdventuresOfSuperman426p06.jpg

And his stats fluctuate with the belief in his powers.

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_03.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_04.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_06.jpg

When darkseid says he's nearly as strong as him, he became just that strong.

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_07.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_08.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_09.jpg

And when he is freed from mental control, he smacks Darkseid around like a two bit whore.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/darkseid/ActionComics586b.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/darkseid/ActionComics586c.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/darkseid/ActionComics586d.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/darkseid/ActionComics586e.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/darkseid/ActionComics586f.jpg


So superman can go from human to near darkseid level to above darkseid level based on his mental state. Yet when "shit got real" during the DoS arc it remained unchanged.

Delta1938
Originally posted by quanchi112
DD wins.

How exactly is it Doomsday wins when the OP basically makes it so Superman goes all out far, far earlier? It was his humanized mind that caused him to do so poorly in DOS, and CIS being off means he doesn't have that weakness here.

And, CIS being off does not benefit Doomsday in the least considering he'll be just as bright as before.

psycho gundam
Originally posted by abhilegend
Will do.
It does. Superman can become total human if he forgets his powers.

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/02-%20Adventures%20of%20Superman%20426/?action=view&current=AdventuresOfSuperman426p05.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/02-%20Adventures%20of%20Superman%20426/?action=view&current=AdventuresOfSuperman426p06.jpg

And his stats fluctuate with the belief in his powers.

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_03.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_04.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_06.jpg

When darkseid says he's nearly as strong as him, he became just that strong.

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_07.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_08.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_09.jpg

And when he is freed from mental control, he smacks Darkseid around like a two bit whore.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/darkseid/ActionComics586b.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/darkseid/ActionComics586c.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/darkseid/ActionComics586d.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/darkseid/ActionComics586e.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/darkseid/ActionComics586f.jpg


So superman can go from human to near darkseid level to above darkseid level based on his mental state. that was a good superman story, but like this guy said: Originally posted by Brockalizer
Yet when "shit got real" during the DoS arc it remained unchanged. I mean, what was the issue that reduced his durability so drastically that the retcon (which it was) would even justify itself?

abhilegend
Originally posted by Brockalizer
Yet when "shit got real" during the DoS arc it remained unchanged.
Wut? That's exactly what happened, superman's durability and strength both increased.

Delta1938
Originally posted by psycho gundam
that was a good superman story, but like this guy said: I mean, what was the issue that reduced his durability so drastically that the retcon (which it was) would even justify itself?

I don't think you're getting what Abhi(and I) are saying. Superman's durability during most of DOS was his "standard level" before the Kryptonite X(and later Mongul II training and other) power-up(s). When Lois was threatened, mental blocks were dropped and his powers went up.

abhilegend
Also just look how far his holding back and not holding back affects his durability.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComics651a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComics651b.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComics651c.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComics651d.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComics651e.jpg


http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComics651f.jpg

Maxima was tossing superman around casually and even downed him for some moments. But then he was brought to his kryptonian mindset by eradicator and he walked through maxima's psi-bolts and oneshotted her.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComics651g.jpg

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComics651h.jpg

That's the difference between a holding back and not holding back superman's durability

abhilegend
Also from the same writer Dan Jurgens, superman regulates his power and durability at a subconscious level.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i20/panthergod/Superman/Superman-holdingbacked6.jpg

Mshinu
The odds were against supes, that is what made his victory and death an heroic tale. The same fight in forum mode means Doomsy takes a large majority, 8.5/10 maybe.

abhilegend
Also just look how far his holding back and not holding back affects his durability.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComics651a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComics651b.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComics651c.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComics651d.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComics651e.jpg


http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComics651f.jpg

Maxima was tossing superman around casually and even downed him for some moments. But then he was brought to his kryptonian mindset by eradicator and he walked through maxima's psi-bolts and oneshotted her.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComics651g.jpg

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComics651h.jpg

That's the difference between a holding back and not hold

emporerpants
Supes wins. Seriously, how can people ignore the proof in those scans? It's pretty sad the denial some people are in.

DarkSaint85
Superman wins.

-Pr-
Originally posted by psycho gundam
^ retcon. he got legitimately taken to his limit back then by a peer. his durability doesn't fall under the "holding back" umbrella anyway.

Why is a retcon not valid?

His durability does increase under stress though, due to increased solar absorption.

I get that writer intent comes in to it, but if we're not ignoring the retcon, then, as hard as it would be, I still think Superman would win.

ODG
Originally posted by -Pr-
DC flat out stated years later that DD only lasted as long as he did because Superman held back. If by "only lasted as long," you mean "beat the sh1t out of Superman" before they ended up killing each other, ok, sure, Doomsday "only lasted that long." Originally posted by -Pr-
DD didn't.

Superman would win. They'd probably kill each other again.

-Pr-
Originally posted by ODG
If by "only lasted as long," you mean "beat the sh1t out of Superman" before they ended up killing each other, ok, sure, Doomsday "only lasted that long." They'd probably kill each other again.

If you took my statement as me saying that Superman looked superior during the fight, that wasn't my intention.

JBL
Originally posted by Brockalizer
Yet when "shit got real" during the DoS arc it remained unchanged. Even when he went all-out against WW and BA, all his stats remained the same. Superman has face countless foes on his level that he was forced to give it his all, his strength, durability, heat vision and freeze breath does not increase because he stops holding back. Look at it like this... take a corvette on the highway driving with regular cars, the vette rides along with the other cars until the driver stops holding back the vettes power and streaks far ahead of the regular cars even if the other cars try and keep up.... Now further up that highway, the vette runs into vipers, ss camaros and turbocharged mustangs, the driver of the vette can stop holding back all he wants and find out that those supercars can match him and some can leave him in the dust. In other words, the vette APPEARS to be even with the regular cars it hangs around with until the driver hits the gas, BUT that illusion fades when put up against equal cars or faster more powerful cars. In order for that vette to treat the supercars like it treated the regular cars, the owner has to add more power ( sundip ) to his corvette. He can wish all he wants, but until he adds a supercharger or some outside form of boost ( sundip ) his cars power is set in stone. DD wins in a tuff fight.

-Pr-
he has dynamic strength based on solar absorption.

also, bad analogy.

abhilegend
How many times this guy is going to ignore everything based on absolutely nothing? Scans are posted in the previous page.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by JBL
Even when he went all-out against WW and BA, all his stats remained the same. Superman has face countless foes on his level that he was forced to give it his all, his strength, durability, heat vision and freeze breath does not increase because he stops holding back. Look at it like this... take a corvette on the highway driving with regular cars, the vette rides along with the other cars until the driver stops holding back the vettes power and streaks far ahead of the regular cars even if the other cars try and keep up.... Now further up that highway, the vette runs into vipers, ss camaros and turbocharged mustangs, the driver of the vette can stop holding back all he wants and find out that those supercars can match him and some can leave him in the dust. In other words, the vette APPEARS to be even with the regular cars it hangs around with until the driver hits the gas, BUT that illusion fades when put up against equal cars or faster more powerful cars. In order for that vette to treat the supercars like it treated the regular cars, the owner has to add more power ( sundip ) to his corvette. He can wish all he wants, but until he adds a supercharger or some outside form of boost ( sundip ) his cars power is set in stone. DD wins in a tuff fight.

I like this analogy

-Pr-
Originally posted by abhilegend
How many times this guy is going to ignore everything based on absolutely nothing? Scans are posted in the previous page.

Not exactly in a position to throw stones there, Abhi.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I like this analogy

if it was accurate, it would be.

Delta1938
Originally posted by abhilegend
How many times this guy is going to ignore everything based on absolutely nothing? Scans are posted in the previous page.

How many times it takes for somehow people suddenly stop hating having their ignorance of characters proven.

abhilegend
Originally posted by -Pr-
Not exactly in a position to throw stones there, Abhi.



if it was accurate, it would be.
mhm

I throw boulders.

mmm

JBL
Originally posted by -Pr-
he has dynamic strength based on solar absorption.

also, bad analogy. Solar absorption, yes, that's his power source, and outside amp. Superman cannot one day stop holding back and increase his stats without a sun amp. He cannot stop holding back and rise above the likes of DD, CM, BA, or any of his equals without a sun amp. He absorbs more sunlight to replenish his stats under stress because under stress his body use up his reserves faster than he could normally replenish, thus his body has to absorb more to keep up. That in no way relates to dynamic strength. Superman himself states that he holds back around normal people and weaker foes because of his fear of killing one or more of them.... Now when he has faced a foe of equal stats or greater stats, he gives it his all and has been shown to be even or the underdog in battle. Dynamic strength is not in supermans powerset, what writers did was water him down from the days of pre-crisis superman who they had a hard time finding a foe that superman that he would not one-shot. If he had dynamic strength, then it would defeat the purpose of them presenting foes and friends of equal or greater stats. And as it stands, those foes or friends on that level have stats set in stone and are still to this day considered peers or greater than superman, and no writer has ever stated they are until superman stops holding back. Scans can be twisted and shaped to the posters desire, but 50+ years of combat and potrayal cannot. It would be a good fight, but DD wins IMO.

Delta1938
Originally posted by JBL
Solar absorption, yes, that's his power source, and outside amp. Superman cannot one day stop holding back and increase his stats without a sun amp. He cannot stop holding back and rise above the likes of DD, CM, BA, or any of his equals without a sun amp. He absorbs more sunlight to replenish his stats under stress because under stress his body use up his reserves faster than he could normally replenish, thus his body has to absorb more to keep up. That in no way relates to dynamic strength. Superman himself states that he holds back around normal people and weaker foes because of his fear of killing one or more of them.... Now when he has faced a foe of equal stats or greater stats, he gives it his all and has been shown to be even or the underdog in battle. Dynamic strength is not in supermans powerset, what writers did was water him down from the days of pre-crisis superman who they had a hard time finding a foe that superman that he would not one-shot. If he had dynamic strength, then it would defeat the purpose of them presenting foes and friends of equal or greater stats. And as it stands, those foes or friends on that level have stats set in stone and are still to this day considered peers or greater than superman, and no writer has ever stated they are until superman stops holding back. Scans can be twisted and shaped to the posters desire, but 50+ years of combat and potrayal cannot. It would be a good fight, but DD wins IMO.

So you wrote a long winded version of saying you don't know Superman but want to ignore evidence.

Q99
Originally posted by JBL
Even when he went all-out against WW and BA, all his stats remained the same.

Mm, can't be sure about that. In the WW fight, he was definitely going at high speed even for him, certainly, and he managed to punch her from the earth to the sun in like 2 seconds, which is crazy!



And I think 'going all out' helps *most* people. If your adrenaline is pumping, if you're totally focused, you're going to cling to consciousness that much harder, punch that much harder, etc.. It's not necessarily just a superman thing.

I mean, how many times have we seen heralds in a team book get taken down by a foe, then turn it around for a second try and do much better even if it's still a contest of power?

JBL
Originally posted by Delta1938
So you wrote a long winded version of saying you don't know Superman but want to ignore evidence. There is a KMC superman and the superman that appears in the comics. You are right, i dont know KMC superman. but i know the one in the comics from the time he could not fly to present day. Answer this question. When superman is deprived of sunlight, what happens?

-Pr-
Originally posted by JBL
Solar absorption, yes, that's his power source, and outside amp. Superman cannot one day stop holding back and increase his stats without a sun amp. He cannot stop holding back and rise above the likes of DD, CM, BA, or any of his equals without a sun amp. He absorbs more sunlight to replenish his stats under stress because under stress his body use up his reserves faster than he could normally replenish, thus his body has to absorb more to keep up. That in no way relates to dynamic strength. Superman himself states that he holds back around normal people and weaker foes because of his fear of killing one or more of them.... Now when he has faced a foe of equal stats or greater stats, he gives it his all and has been shown to be even or the underdog in battle. Dynamic strength is not in supermans powerset, what writers did was water him down from the days of pre-crisis superman who they had a hard time finding a foe that superman that he would not one-shot. If he had dynamic strength, then it would defeat the purpose of them presenting foes and friends of equal or greater stats. And as it stands, those foes or friends on that level have stats set in stone and are still to this day considered peers or greater than superman, and no writer has ever stated they are until superman stops holding back. Scans can be twisted and shaped to the posters desire, but 50+ years of combat and potrayal cannot. It would be a good fight, but DD wins IMO.

Dynamic strength has been in his powerset for years. The comics blatantly show him having that extra gear even when up against his peers.

His stats haven't been "set in stone" at all in the last few decades, so I really don't know why you keep stating that they are.

The very nature of the character requires fluid power levels.

Delta1938
Originally posted by JBL
There is a KMC superman and the superman that appears in the comics. You are right, i dont know KMC superman. but i know the one in the comics from the time he could not fly to present day. Answer this question. When superman is deprived of sunlight, what happens?

No, you don't know comic Superman. It's been pointed-out that his mind effects his powers. That's why Mongul II was training Superman, to overcome the mental blocks. You can see examples from the first Imperiex Probe fight before OWAW and through-out, including the fight where Superman faces tons of Probes and the narration states he's unleashed. UP, UP, AND AWAY also showed Superman's powers boosting due to his mind. You're making arguments to try and divert from the actual point.

JBL
Originally posted by Q99
Mm, can't be sure about that. In the WW fight, he was definitely going at high speed even for him, certainly, and he managed to punch her from the earth to the sun in like 2 seconds, which is crazy!



And I think 'going all out' helps *most* people. If your adrenaline is pumping, if you're totally focused, you're going to cling to consciousness that much harder, punch that much harder, etc.. It's not necessarily just a superman thing.

I mean, how many times have we seen heralds in a team book get taken down by a foe, then turn it around for a second try and do much better even if it's still a contest of power? You are correct. It applies to many characters, but people seem to get plot mixed up with dynamic strength. Did spiderman get dynamic strength when he beat firelord? firelord has given surfer and thor fits. But spiderman fans can twist that to support said claim of dynamic strength. Being peer to the likes of CM and others for so long tell the story. There is no until except for characters like the hulk.

-Pr-
Originally posted by JBL
There is no until except for characters like the hulk.

At least we now get to the root of the issue.

JBL
Originally posted by Delta1938
No, you don't know comic Superman. It's been pointed-out that his mind effects his powers. That's why Mongul II was training Superman, to overcome the mental blocks. You can see examples from the first Imperiex Probe fight before OWAW and through-out, including the fight where Superman faces tons of Probes and the narration states he's unleashed. UP, UP, AND AWAY also showed Superman's powers boosting due to his mind. You're making arguments to try and divert from the actual point. Superman cannot regulate his powers by his state of mind as shown by the many times hes been mind controlled. He can keep himself from killing or hurting weaker characters, but as shown in comics, he has went all out against many and even failed why doing so. The end of a comic and plot will fool many, you know those probes were not going to win, but to build up the excitement for the reader, the probes HAD to appear unbeatable to the HERO and then in the end, the HERO comes through, fan happy, books sell. KMC does not sell comics, KMC does not script the outcome, people debate here, so spiderman aint beating firelord on KMC. Batman aint dodging bullets here and Captain America aint taking hits from hulk here. Thats why you have the speed kill thing here for flash, superman, gladiator and the like. Oh sure, all three will get hit in the comics, even get beaten when they should not, but it makes good reading and long comics, but im tired, i will post scans soon to support my stand. goodnight.

JBL
Originally posted by -Pr-
At least we now get to the root of the issue. I used Hulk because its a known fact that he has dynamic strength and even though it was in a crossover, the two have faced each other and only one was noted as having dynamic strength.

-Pr-
Originally posted by JBL
I used Hulk because its a known fact that he has dynamic strength and even though it was in a crossover, the two have faced each other and only one was noted as having dynamic strength.

Which has absolutely no bearing on this discussion, so why bring it up?

I get it, it's fine. I'm not going to try to force anyone to like, or root for Superman. That would be silly.

JBL
Originally posted by -Pr-
Which has absolutely no bearing on this discussion, so why bring it up?

I get it, it's fine. I'm not going to try to force anyone to like, or root for Superman. That would be silly. OK, answer this... How many others are their that came from the same place that superman came from and gets their powers from the yellow sun? Do they have dynamic strength or is superman special and different than them?

DarkSaint85
He's special and different to them.

-Pr-
Originally posted by JBL
OK, answer this... How many others are their that came from the same place that superman came from and gets their powers from the yellow sun? Do they have dynamic strength or is superman special and different than them?

You're seriously asking me if Superman is different from other Kryptonians?

The same Superman that has been a genetic freak (heh) and descended from a Kryptonian deity, and you're asking me if he's at all different from other Kryptonians? Really? The same Superman that is regularly shown to pretty-much embarrass other Kryptonians? Really?

http://zippy.gfycat.com/KeenIdealEgg.gif

DarkSaint85
Even if you don't subscribe to /didn't know all that, Supes has been on earth under a yellow sun the longest....

abhilegend
Heh, its been stated clearly that superman is the peak kryptonian, he's the captain america of that species.

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16783245_killskryptonians_4.jpg

But that's not a proof too I guess.

The Sorrow
Not really much different from say Thor hitting something saying he is going all out, but still being able to strike with more force despite previously claiming he is giving it everything. Doesn't mean he has dynamic strength, neither does Superman, the instances of them showing true dynamic strength are few and far between.

Basically they hold back a lot is really what it boils down to.

JBL
Originally posted by The Sorrow
Not really much different from say Thor hitting something saying he is going all out, but still being able to strike with more force despite previously claiming he is giving it everything. Doesn't mean he has dynamic strength, neither does Superman, the instances of them showing true dynamic strength are few and far between.

Basically they hold back a lot is really what it boils down to. BINGO. You hit the nail on the head, just because superman can stop holding back, he does not go from being peers with the likes of CM to being above him. Plenty characters would all of a sudden be credited with having dynamic strength if they stopped holding back. When superman or any other ( SET ) character goes all out, they use their full abilities along with their full ( SET IN STONE ) strength, but they DO NOT change classes, they just use their full strength.

Now on the other hand you have power draining characters that can and have increased their stats such as Creel.

On another, you have RARE increases such as struck by some sort of power increasing attack or Nature itself. Ironman.

Further than that you have an induced trait ( warrior madness ). Thor. Again rare but it has been CLEARLY stated and seen.

Also, you have the unseen yet stated such as the more a character believes in himself, the stronger and more powerful he gets. Gladiator.

Then you have Hulk. Nothing needs to be addressed on him i hope.

ALL of the above have CLEARLY been stated or seen, you read it once and that's it.

OH wait, i forgot one, you also have rise to meet the challenge ( plot based ) feats which EVERY hero has. That is not Dynamic strength, that is the plot of the story, you see this in EVERY comic, by EVERY hero.

The only CLEAR thing about superman is a sundip. Does that make the above better than superman? NO, it does not, but if you can debate something this long, then somethings wrong with claims on superman right? Case in point, Hulk has dynamic strength, that would not make it past 1 post if someone denies that he does.

JBL
Originally posted by -Pr-
You're seriously asking me if Superman is different from other Kryptonians?

The same Superman that has been a genetic freak (heh) and descended from a Kryptonian deity, and you're asking me if he's at all different from other Kryptonians? Really? The same Superman that is regularly shown to pretty-much embarrass other Kryptonians? Really?

http://zippy.gfycat.com/KeenIdealEgg.gif What equal from Krypton has he embarrassed with stats and not experience and plot?

-Pr-
Originally posted by JBL
What equal from Krypton has he embarrassed with stats and not experience and plot?

So you're not going to answer my statement?

So it's only experience and plot when he does it... Right.

Abhi already posted one scan that illustrates why Superman is different.

Originally posted by The Sorrow
Not really much different from say Thor hitting something saying he is going all out, but still being able to strike with more force despite previously claiming he is giving it everything. Doesn't mean he has dynamic strength, neither does Superman, the instances of them showing true dynamic strength are few and far between.

Basically they hold back a lot is really what it boils down to.

It actually is different, though.

Originally posted by JBL
BINGO. You hit the nail on the head, just because superman can stop holding back, he does not go from being peers with the likes of CM to being above him. Plenty characters would all of a sudden be credited with having dynamic strength if they stopped holding back. When superman or any other ( SET ) character goes all out, they use their full abilities along with their full ( SET IN STONE ) strength, but they DO NOT change classes, they just use their full strength.

Now on the other hand you have power draining characters that can and have increased their stats such as Creel.

On another, you have RARE increases such as struck by some sort of power increasing attack or Nature itself. Ironman.

Further than that you have an induced trait ( warrior madness ). Thor. Again rare but it has been CLEARLY stated and seen.

Also, you have the unseen yet stated such as the more a character believes in himself, the stronger and more powerful he gets. Gladiator.

Then you have Hulk. Nothing needs to be addressed on him i hope.

ALL of the above have CLEARLY been stated or seen, you read it once and that's it.

OH wait, i forgot one, you also have rise to meet the challenge ( plot based ) feats which EVERY hero has. That is not Dynamic strength, that is the plot of the story, you see this in EVERY comic, by EVERY hero.

The only CLEAR thing about superman is a sundip. Does that make the above better than superman? NO, it does not, but if you can debate something this long, then somethings wrong with claims on superman right? Case in point, Hulk has dynamic strength, that would not make it past 1 post if someone denies that he does.

Do you honestly believe that, or are you just trolling?

Either way, I can't see this continuing.

Delta1938
Originally posted by JBL
Superman cannot regulate his powers by his state of mind as shown by the many times hes been mind controlled.

That's just dumb. Using that as proof contradicts numerous established examples of Superman's mind straight-up effecting his powers, including under the first two major Post-CRISIS Superman writers, John Byrne(this version's creator, who even stated he sees Superman's limits are whatever he believes they are; not that I'm arguing he's limitless if he thinks, but that proves a dynamic power when Byrne created him) and Marv Wolfman.

As here under both, Superman loses his powers simply due to amnesia, gradually regains them under Granny Goodness training him, but then regains his powers because Darkseid convinced him he draws power from Darkseid. Abhi already posted the same under his account, but I guess they need to be shown again.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Misc/Dynamic%20Nature%20Examples/Loses%20Powers%20Due%20To%20Amnesia


Originally posted by JBL
He can keep himself from killing or hurting weaker characters, but as shown in comics, he has went all out against many and even failed why doing so.

Batman straight-up stated Superman subconsciously regulates his powers.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Misc/Dynamic%20Nature%20Examples/Misc/th_JLACLASSIFIED32-PG06.jpg

A "tad" different than holding back.

Originally posted by JBL
The end of a comic and plot will fool many, you know those probes were not going to win, but to build up the excitement for the reader, the probes HAD to appear unbeatable to the HERO and then in the end, the HERO comes through, fan happy, books sell.

You got it so wrong. Superman's efforts were more heroic in the first two, and as time went on he was handling them more easily. But I'm getting a little ahead of myself. First I'll show you the whole reason Mongul II came to Earth, to train Superman to overcome limitations.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Misc/Dynamic%20Nature%20Examples/Mongul%20Training

Mongul insulting Superman holding back, telling him to give in to his rage, Superman saying he, "felt my powers surging," talking about he wasn't mentally prepared, denying Superman saying he can't do something, that he CHOOSES not to. All the narration from Lois about the path he's on is dangerous and comparing it to starting a fire by playing with matches, that Mongul is going to "make him more super," talking about Clark's concern about his powers, that before it was his limitations, now his concern is the opposite. How does that not all drive home that Superman's mental state is limiting his powers? If he only gets more powerful from extra solar energy, why did Mongul bother to train him? Why didn't he just tell Superman to go in the Sun before they fought Imperiex(at the time they didn't know the true Imperiex)? Why have a freaking issue and a half dedicated to the training if they weren't establishing Superman is limiting his own power?


ANYWAYS, on the Imperiex Probes and your--

Originally posted by JBL
The end of a comic and plot will fool many, you know those probes were not going to win, but to build up the excitement for the reader, the probes HAD to appear unbeatable to the HERO and then in the end, the HERO comes through, fan happy, books sell.

Like I said, Superman's first two Imperiex Probe fights were a lot more about the hero being the underdog and coming through. And they got easier as time went on. Here he only beats the Probe by destroying the Hallower, stopping the Imperiex Probe from actually achieving its goal. He couldn't really hurt it despite help from Mongul II.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Superman%20VS--/Miscellaneous/Imperiex%20Probes/1-Vs%20Imperiex%20Probe%20and%20destroys%20Hollower

Here in his second fight, he actually does straight-up beat one instead of defeating its plan. By himself. But not easily.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Superman%20VS--/Miscellaneous/Imperiex%20Probes/2-Vs%20Imperiex%20Probe

Then he casually broke the Probe's arm off and cauterized it before it could explode, when Aquaman and Wonder Woman(with an Amazonian ax) striking the same area together couldn't scratch it.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Superman%20VS--/Miscellaneous/Imperiex%20Probes/3-Breaks_Probe

And then when he's owning Imperiex Probes so long he's lost track of time to the point it could be hours, or days. And even survives a partial blast from Imperiex Prime(yeah I know Darkseid saved Supes teleporting him away, but we still see Superman get hit with the blast).

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Superman%20VS--/Miscellaneous/Imperiex%20Probes/4-Vs%20Countless%20Probes-Survives%20Imperiex%20Prime

And in fact, pay particular attention to the narration of this page--

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Miscellaneous/Imperiex%20Probes/4-Vs%20Countless%20Probes-Survives%20Imperiex%20Prime/th_AOS594-PG15.jpg

"It has become PRIMAL. It has become second nature."

"As his 'partner' is truly destruction PERSONIFIED, so he HE become. And from that transformation...SUCCESS. Far and away from the humanity he holds in such high measure, where the Probes seemed far more DEADLY, he has CUT LOOSE. Subsequently, the Probes have offered little resistance."

"So he plows AHEAD, confident in his powers. Confident in his mindset."

Yeah, so narration points-out his mindset, about it being "PRIMAL." That Doomsday is "destruction PERSONIFIED" and Superman has become the same. And stating that "transformation"(of his mindset) is what gives him "SUCCESS." And stating that the Imperiex Probes were tougher on Earth, and now with his mindset, the Imperiex Probes are easy to beat now that he's "CUT LOOSE." And it states he "--plows AHEAD, confident in his powers. Confident in his mindset."

So, if he only gets more powerful due to external amps, if he only can hold back to not hurt those weaker than him and doesn't actually reduce his power, why the **** did Mongul emphasize so much about Superman's holding himself back, to not quell his rage, why train him if all they needed to do was give him a Sun-Dip, why does he get easier and easier beating the Imperiex Probes, and when he's owning them left and right, it keeps talking so much his mindset, that the Probes are now easy for him to beat, that he's had to become "destruction PERSONIFIED" like Doomsday, that these are the keys to his success, that he's confident in his powers and MINDSET, if he only gets more powerful from an external am?

Oh, I'll answer that question. You're wrong.

Originally posted by JBL
KMC does not sell comics, KMC does not script the outcome, people debate here, so spiderman aint beating firelord on KMC. Batman aint dodging bullets here and Captain America aint taking hits from hulk here. Thats why you have the speed kill thing here for flash, superman, gladiator and the like. Oh sure, all three will get hit in the comics, even get beaten when they should not, but it makes good reading and long comics, but im tired, i will post scans soon to support my stand. goodnight.

This is all irrelevant babble that has nothing to do with the topic.

By the way, here's where his powers are dynamic in UP, UP AND AWAY.

Here, Superman is powerless, it's determined his Kryptonian physiology hasn't changed, but for whatever reason he's not absorbing solar energy. When chased by a couple villains hired to kill him, he gradually regains his powers, but not to a noticeable degree(enough to run fast enough to really surprise the metahuman hitmen, but not fast enough to noticeably be superhuman in the situation, and takes an energy blast, but thinks he must be mistaken because he's fine), right until he's about to get hit by a train.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Misc/Dynamic%20Nature%20Examples/UP-UP-AND_AWAY/1-ACTION%20COMICS%20838

Then various other examples of his powers increasing as needed.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Misc/Dynamic%20Nature%20Examples/UP-UP-AND_AWAY/2-SUPERMAN%20652

-Pr-
Honestly Delta, I think you're wasting your time.

DC could flat out say Superman gets stronger as he gets angrier/more emotional (and they have before), and people would still make excuses all because they don't like that big red cape.

Delta1938
Originally posted by -Pr-
Honestly Delta, I think you're wasting your time.

DC could flat out say Superman gets stronger as he gets angrier/more emotional (and they have before), and people would still make excuses all because they don't like that big red cape.

It's not a waste if others(who aren't biased Superman haters) can see it and see he's wrong. Plus, it'll be entertaining to see the straws he grasps.

CosmicComet
Originally posted by JBL
What equal from Krypton has he embarrassed with stats and not experience and plot?


If you embarrass someone with stats, they are not your equal.

JBL
Originally posted by Delta1938
It's not a waste if others(who aren't biased Superman haters) can see it and see he's wrong. Plus, it'll be entertaining to see the straws he grasps. Answer this. We all know that superman, Captain Marvel, Black Adam and a lot others are considered equals by the writers. BUT, if superman, CM and Black Adam ALL stop holding back or get angry, does your implied dynamic strength place superman above Marvel, Adam and the others? He becomes stronger than the others who the writers themselves placed in the same strength class? They are equals until superman stops holding back right? So it can be said that superman is as strong as CM and BA in a calm state even if BA and CM are enraged, but if superman gets enraged, he gets much stronger than them no matter what the writers say or think? Well, with this new found knowledge, i change my mind.. Superman stops holding back and stomps DD. Thanks for clearing things up for me. wink

Zack Fair
http://i1.livememe.com/8046lm.jpg

carver9
Superman is strong but he doesn't have dynamic strength. I have straight up seen him fail to move/lift objects.

Delta1938
Originally posted by JBL
Answer this. We all know that superman, Captain Marvel, Black Adam and a lot others are considered equals by the writers. BUT, if superman, CM and Black Adam ALL stop holding back or get angry, does your implied dynamic strength place superman above Marvel, Adam and the others? He becomes stronger than the others who the writers themselves placed in the same strength class? They are equals until superman stops holding back right? So it can be said that superman is as strong as CM and BA in a calm state even if BA and CM are enraged, but if superman gets enraged, he gets much stronger than them no matter what the writers say or think? Well, with this new found knowledge, i change my mind.. Superman stops holding back and stomps DD. Thanks for clearing things up for me. wink

http://desertpeace.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/grasping-at-straws1.jpg

Sarcasm doesn't make your lack of an argument any stronger.

Delta1938
Originally posted by carver9
Superman is strong but he doesn't have dynamic strength. I have straight up seen him fail to move/lift objects.

So sorry Superman is superior to Hulk, even in strength, so you have to ignore on-panel evidence. sad I know it hurts buddy, but don't be dishonest.

carver9
Originally posted by Delta1938
So sorry Superman is superior to Hulk, even in strength, so you have to ignore on-panel evidence. sad I know it hurts buddy, but don't be dishonest.

Long time no debate. As for your comment, what you are implying happens with every character/hero. They hold back, it's what they do but when push comes to shove, they display power that they are unfamiliar at using. Superman unleashing like never before doesn't mean he has dynamic strength. Nice scans though but none of that proved he has dynamic strength.

Delta1938
Originally posted by carver9
Long time no debate. As for your comment, what you are implying happens with every character/hero. They hold back, it's what they do but when push comes to shove, they display power that they are unfamiliar at using. Superman unleashing like never before doesn't mean he has dynamic strength. Nice scans though but none of that proved he has dynamic strength.

You're either in massive denial, or your reading comprehension is extremely lacking. I don't think you're dumb, so you're in denial. :-( So sorry buddy. I bet you can't answer the questions I asked in the post with the scans.

-Pr-
Originally posted by carver9
Superman is strong but he doesn't have dynamic strength. I have straight up seen him fail to move/lift objects.

That has nothing to do with dynamic strength. At all.

carver9
Originally posted by Delta1938
You're either in massive denial, or your reading comprehension is extremely lacking. I don't think you're dumb, so you're in denial. :-( So sorry buddy. I bet you can't answer the questions I asked in the post with the scans.

Didn't see your question but you did use scans from OWAW which takes away from your entire argument since Superman wasn't STRONG enough to move War World under his own power...which resulted in him Sundipping. Stop getting so angry...this is a friendly debate.

mad

carver9
Originally posted by -Pr-
That has nothing to do with dynamic strength. At all.

I think you all are getting amazingly strong mixed up with dynamic strength.

ODG
Originally posted by -Pr-
That has nothing to do with dynamic strength. At all. Very little in this thread does.

-Pr-
Originally posted by carver9
I think you all are getting amazingly strong mixed up with dynamic strength.

No.

Originally posted by ODG
Very little in this thread does.

Which is kind of the problem, so hopefully we can move on soon.

Delta1938
Originally posted by carver9
Didn't see your question but you did use scans from OWAW which takes away from your entire argument since Superman wasn't STRONG enough to move War World under his own power...which resulted in him Sundipping. Stop getting so angry...this is a friendly debate.

mad

Where was I angry?

And you mean where Superman needed a Sun-Dip to move Warworld, with engines that move it FTL, and had the massive energy source of Imperiex Prime(energy from several GALAXIES), and was further empowered by its connection to Apokolips? That's just a "tad" more than planet moving. Fail buddy. stick out tongue

carver9
Originally posted by Delta1938
Where was I angry?

And you mean where Superman needed a Sun-Dip to move Warworld, with engines that move it FTL, and had the massive energy source of Imperiex Prime(energy from several GALAXIES), and was further empowered by its connection to Apokolips? That's just a "tad" more than planet moving. Fail buddy. stick out tongue

Huh? If you have dynamic strength, why not just access it? Why not move the planet without resorting to a plot that he had no idea of the consequences?

-Pr-
Originally posted by carver9
Huh? If you have dynamic strength, why not just access it? Why not move the planet without resorting to a plot that he had no idea of the consequences?

Because nobody said dynamic strength is limitless. Which is what people don't seem to be grasping.

==============

TBH, Bada and I have talked about this, and we both agree he has dynamic strength. So, while I don't want to make it a mod ruling, I would appreciate it if everyone moved on and got back to the debate. As no, this really isn't that relevant to the discussion.

Rao Kal El
Some arguments in here

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/GIFS/gun-hulk_zps275eda22.gif

JBL
Originally posted by carver9
Huh? If you have dynamic strength, why not just access it? Why not move the planet without resorting to a plot that he had no idea of the consequences? True. Why not access your dynamic strength to make yourself stronger? He could have did it to defeat BA, DD, CM and a lot of other when he himself said he did not hold back and was the most pissed. Not one of them seen anything new in superman just because he was pissed and when he and CM fused, it was superman himself in awe, there was no mention of CM knowing about supermans hidden dynamic strength and CM had FULL access to supermans abilities just like superman had to CM. CM felt NOTHING that he did not already know about superman. Superman was the one getting a power boost from Marvel. Their strength IS and have always been comparable to the other period. a none holding back superman will always be equal to a none holding back CM and neither can will or change that without some form of amp, thats DCs view, not mines.

Badabing
Originally posted by JBL
True. Why not access your dynamic strength to make yourself stronger? He could have did it to defeat BA, DD, CM and a lot of other when he himself said he did not hold back and was the most pissed. Not one of them seen anything new in superman just because he was pissed and when he and CM fused, it was superman himself in awe, there was no mention of CM knowing about supermans hidden dynamic strength and CM had FULL access to supermans abilities just like superman had to CM. CM felt NOTHING that he did not already know about superman. Superman was the one getting a power boost from Marvel. Their strength IS and have always been comparable to the other period. a none holding back superman will always be equal to a none holding back CM and neither can will or change that without some form of amp, thats DCs view, not mines. I can see part of your problem. You have trouble comprehending. Pr already posted this:

Originally posted by -Pr-
I would appreciate it if everyone moved on and got back to the debate. As no, this really isn't that relevant to the discussion. Everyone back to the topic.

Sin I AM
I see it as a stalemate

psycho gundam
Originally posted by Delta1938
I don't think you're getting what Abhi(and I) are saying. Superman's durability during most of DOS was his "standard level" before the Kryptonite X(and later Mongul II training and other) power-up(s). When Lois was threatened, mental blocks were dropped and his powers went up. no, YOU don't get it.

Pr said he was "holding back", well that connotation means it's implied he was consciously willing to limit himself in both attack and defense. all i'm doing is trying to ascertain how that's even logical, him having the power to do so is not really the answer i was looking for as it was a "how" answer and not a "why he's doing it" one

h1a8
Now Superman wins easily by bfr or just by not holding back in the beginning.

-Pr-
Originally posted by psycho gundam
no, YOU don't get it.

Pr said he was "holding back", well that connotation means it's implied he was consciously willing to limit himself in both attack and defense. all i'm doing is trying to ascertain how that's even logical, him having the power to do so is not really the answer i was looking for as it was a "how" answer and not a "why he's doing it" one

Holding back isn't always conscious; I should have specified earlier.

Sure, there is some level of hesitation with Superman, where he physically doesn't hit as hard as he can because, as he has for years, Superman worries about how powerful he actually is, and if he'll be seen as a god.

But there's also the fact that, after learning such rigorous self control, it's gotten to the stage where there's a subconscious level of restraint too, that has to be overcome.

While I'm sure Jurgens never intended for Superman to be holding back during the fight, the problem arises with the retcon. If we don't follow the retcon, then Superman and Doomsday most likely kill each other, imo.

ToughMind
Superman stated that the harder he fought, the more Doomsday liked it.

Basically the harder Superman fought, the more intense Doomsday became and harder to fight.

Doomsday adapts to current battle situations.

Even if Superman didn't hold back in the beginning, Doomsday would have just matched his intensity.

DD wins or they both kill each other.

h1a8
Originally posted by ToughMind
Superman stated that the harder he fought, the more Doomsday liked it.

Basically the harder Superman fought, the more intense Doomsday became and harder to fight.

Doomsday adapts to current battle situations.

Even if Superman didn't hold back in the beginning, Doomsday would have just matched his intensity.

DD wins or they both kill each other.

Superman failed to hurt DD until he was near death. All of that fighting and not once hurt DD at all? That means Superman finally hurt DD when he stopped holding back. Otherwise, he would have never been able to hurt DD. The writer already said that Superman was holding back the entire fight until the very end.
DD wasn't shown nor written to adapt on the fly in mid battle. He gained that ability in HP. Before that it was stated that he must die first before he adapted.

abhilegend
Originally posted by The Sorrow
Not really much different from say Thor hitting something saying he is going all out, but still being able to strike with more force despite previously claiming he is giving it everything. Doesn't mean he has dynamic strength, neither does Superman, the instances of them showing true dynamic strength are few and far between.

Basically they hold back a lot is really what it boils down to.
Really? That was due to the trauma he felt over killing his own grandfather. When kryptonians feel that kind of guilt, it doesn't just stops them using their own strength, it literally starts killing them.

http://i.imgur.com/r6fSzMM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/BsuI6RG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RLVhxut.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/An5EqDw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/89yNArC.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/9nbuyjh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ufThsAJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0JT3oLJ.jpg

The stuff with Dark Supergirl who was owning jla in Loeb's run and all that? A dying supergirl was doing that.

Also Superman totally lost his powers when he doubted himself, broke his ribs and all that stuff. When he overcame that doubt, he was Superman again.

http://i.imgur.com/MKQ1Ln8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wTt6VdP.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/321QZGM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/aYOvjh9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qLYmeLi.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nte428S.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/k9g57uX.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/OMjhlBD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qlr27lk.jpg

That's not just holding back, that's dynamic power factor at its best. It fluctuates their powers, from human level to above top tier level. If Thor or whoever you think is comparable to superman in this regard, its time to back it up with proof.

LordofBrooklyn
Originally posted by The Sorrow
Not really much different from say Thor hitting something saying he is going all out, but still being able to strike with more force despite previously claiming he is giving it everything. Doesn't mean he has dynamic strength, neither does Superman, the instances of them showing true dynamic strength are few and far between.

Basically they hold back a lot is really what it boils down to.

This statement has no correlation to Thor's canon whatsoever in terms of dynamic strength.

You could ask any of the Thor Corps here and they should affirm this position.

The only thing I can think of that even remotely addresses this point in relation to the Odinson is Warrior Madness. The only time Thor mentioned his "Holding back" to avoid this was with The Hulk in an annual.

Even then it doesn't work.

quanchi112
Originally posted by The Sorrow
Not really much different from say Thor hitting something saying he is going all out, but still being able to strike with more force despite previously claiming he is giving it everything. Doesn't mean he has dynamic strength, neither does Superman, the instances of them showing true dynamic strength are few and far between.

Basically they hold back a lot is really what it boils down to. thumb up

abhilegend
Also as a descendant of Rao, superman draws strength from the sun god himself.

http://i.imgur.com/u7U9Q7p.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/604BtBE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/D2ogzv8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/kvRHv2d.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6i3n3it.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/WyOTQh0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EEzWVyP.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/oAouehd.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3nZVQco.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FZz61Ut.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lKzQskT.jpg

As Mnemon says superman is unique and can draw strength from the race memories even without his knowledge.

http://i.imgur.com/oAouehd.jpg

Delta1938
OK, both Pr and Bada want us to get back on topic and stop about the dynamic strength thing. So, hopefully what I say doesn't go against their wishes, as I'm merely trying to explain things here.

My argument is that Superman, based on the OP's scenario, will fight Doomsday like he did at the end, much earlier, perhaps the beginning, of the fight. He Doomsday was hinted at getting stronger in DEATH OF SUPERMAN, it was confirmed in Roger Stern's story during DOOMSDAY ANNUAL 1995, and Superman was even hurting his hands hitting Doomsday and Superman's heat vision combined with the energy attacks of Fire, Booster Gold, Guy and J'onn/Bloodwynd had no effect. Yet when Lois was threatened, Superman's heat vision knocked Doomsday back with ease, slamming him into a building, and an exhausted, injured Superman beats Doomsday to death fairly quickly, while previously having no effect whatsoever.

This all looks to me to be a pretty clear example of dynamic strength, and via the OP Superman would fight like this far, far sooner. Yet so many people say no, Superman doesn't have dynamic strength, and I have to provide evidence while people nitpick, ignore, ect to deny it despite Abhi and I showing John Byrne(the creator of Post-CRISIS Superman) and Marv Wolfman(a very important early Post-CRISIS Superman writer who contributed almost as much as Byrne in those days) both showing Superman's powers fluctuating directly based on his mind, even before DOS. And stories after, even directly referencing the DOS events showing Superman holding back. And other examples, as well. Yet, people still dispute and deny without showing any actual evidence to refute examples where the FREAKING STORYLINE is about Superman's mind regulating his power level.

What does you guys being so hard set on refusing to accept what multiple stories clearly show say about your hatred of Superman?

Rao Kal El
The self claimed "Superman hatters" are the ones who cannot deal with the idea and the evidence presented that Superman's power fluctuate with his mind set.

It is the same people over and over again.

This was explained and used during the whole post crisis era.

Those who claim otherwise either have never read any of those stories or if they had their reading comprehension skills is Quan-tifiable to be below average wink

deathslash
Originally posted by abhilegend
Will do.
It does. Superman can become total human if he forgets his powers.

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/02-%20Adventures%20of%20Superman%20426/?action=view&current=AdventuresOfSuperman426p05.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/02-%20Adventures%20of%20Superman%20426/?action=view&current=AdventuresOfSuperman426p06.jpg

And his stats fluctuate with the belief in his powers.

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_03.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_04.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_06.jpg

When darkseid says he's nearly as strong as him, he became just that strong.

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_07.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_08.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1987%20May%20Legends%20Apokolips%20Saga/03%20Action%20Comics%20586/?action=view&current=ac_586_09.jpg

And when he is freed from mental control, he smacks Darkseid around like a two bit whore.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/darkseid/ActionComics586b.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/darkseid/ActionComics586c.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/darkseid/ActionComics586d.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/darkseid/ActionComics586e.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/darkseid/ActionComics586f.jpg


So superman can go from human to near darkseid level to above darkseid level based on his mental state. I'm pretty certain that I remember it being shown that it was actually Dessad posing as Darkseid all along.

Delta1938
Originally posted by Rao Kal El

Those who claim otherwise either have never read any of those stories or if they had their reading comprehension skills is Quan-tifiable to be below average wink

I see whatcha did there.

Originally posted by deathslash
I'm pretty certain that I remember it being shown that it was actually Dessad posing as Darkseid all along.

And what does it matter if the whole reason was because Superman's powers increased because he was CONVINCED his power came from Darkseid? Or are you just making a correction and not arguing against the evidence?

-Pr-
Guys, this is the last time I ask, so please, drop it.

Badabing
The next bit of off topic discussion will earn that person a temp ban. Get back to the topic or don't post in this thread. This is the 3rd time Pr and I have asked nicely.

carver9
A lot of good arguments have been made here and at first I thought it was a stomp in DD favor. With that said, right now, I'm undecided. Guess I will wait to respond again when I am done reading the rest of the arguments here. Good job everyone...I see a lil of Carver9 in all of you (you're progressing).

smile

Zack Fair
Originally posted by carver9
A lot of good arguments have been made here and at first I thought it was a stomp in DD favor. With that said, right now, I'm undecided. Guess I will wait to respond again when I am done reading the rest of the arguments here. Good job everyone...I see a lil of Carver9 in all of you (you're progressing).

smile http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/3553091/seppuku-o.gif

LordofBrooklyn
Originally posted by carver9
A lot of good arguments have been made here and at first I thought it was a stomp in DD favor. With that said, right now, I'm undecided. Guess I will wait to respond again when I am done reading the rest of the arguments here. Good job everyone...I see a lil of Carver9 in all of you (you're progressing).

smile

I would prefer, Carver Prime, thank you very much!

-Pr-
Originally posted by carver9
A lot of good arguments have been made here and at first I thought it was a stomp in DD favor. With that said, right now, I'm undecided. Guess I will wait to respond again when I am done reading the rest of the arguments here. Good job everyone...I see a lil of Carver9 in all of you (you're progressing).

smile

That sounds really, really, really gay.

carver9
Originally posted by -Pr-
That sounds really, really, really gay.

laughing out loud laughing out loud not talking about that kind of 'in', Pr.

carver9
Originally posted by Zack Fair
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/3553091/seppuku-o.gif

laughing

-Pr-
Originally posted by carver9
laughing out loud laughing out loud not talking about that kind of 'in', Pr.

Too late.

Brockalizer
A lot of people seem to be making the same mistake and I don't know if it's due to lack of reading comprehension or some other mitigating factor. In the OP I specifically stated that these are the same versions of the two characters. Anything revealed by Mongul, Batman, or anyone else years after the DoS arc, whether it's mental blocks or divine lineage is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if something was retconned later, at the time it happened it was cannon. The "gloves off" Superman from DoS is not the same as the "gloves off" version trained by Mongul for the OWAW arc. The only feats that matter are those that occurred during the arc or that happened prior to the arc but after the crisis reboot.
Now, that being said who do I believe will win? Honestly it could go either way in my opinion. If Superman fatigues at a greater rate (like when you "floor it" in JBL's vette scenario) while going all out then I'd give the edge to Doomsday. If he tires at his normal rate, but just has a little extra zing in his attack then Superman would probably win. From what I saw in the arc when Supes stopped holding back his strength increased fractionally not exponentially. After all the damage Doomsday soaked from the JLA, and Superman himself I believe that it would still take a little while to soften him up even if Superman isn't holding back.

-Pr-
If we're not including retcons, then they split yet again.

deathslash
Originally posted by Delta1938
I see whatcha did there.



And what does it matter if the whole reason was because Superman's powers increased because he was CONVINCED his power came from Darkseid? Or are you just making a correction and not arguing against the evidence? I'm not really arguing anything I'm just making a correction.

abhilegend
Originally posted by deathslash
I'm pretty certain that I remember it being shown that it was actually Dessad posing as Darkseid all along.
Yeah Byrne retconned it later.Originally posted by -Pr-
That sounds really, really, really gay.
laughing out loud

Rao Kal El

DarkSaint85

Rao Kal El
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
If only Doomsday fought someone mean and nasty who was raised on Apokolips.....hmmmm.

There you have it. Darkseid is <95% of Superman. sick

Dan Jurgens thinks of Darkseid to be more of a threat because of his intelligence more than his physical stats.

Personally I think Darkseid is more powerful with his other powers, physically they should be around the same level, IMO

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