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Both stated that they can remake the universe. Which god wins? The TRUE RAO!

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/SG_zpse3375b74.jpg

vs

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/RAO_zps0742d726.jpg

Rao, unarguably.

In his most recent depiction, Rao was touted as God more or less--the creator of ALL:
http://imgur.com/131aA2J
http://imgur.com/jXh9rRU
http://imgur.com/IXpE6Ur

Conversely, SG was destroyed by merely *attempting* to usurp a smidgen of control over the universe when it was young:
http://imgur.com/BdOhVsL

Haha, what a pussy character

Originally posted by Galan007
Rao, unarguably.

In his most recent depiction, Rao was touted as God more or less--the creator of ALL:
http://imgur.com/131aA2J
http://imgur.com/jXh9rRU
http://imgur.com/IXpE6Ur


Those action comics scans may as well be hyperbole though. It's only Krypton's side of the story.

Rao was on par with Cythonna, as shown in Superman the last god of krypton:

http://i.imgur.com/5V0bW32.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CbspWVB.jpg

...and she definitely isn't universal level.

Originally posted by operator616
Those action comics scans may as well be hyperbole though. It's only Krypton's side of the story.

Rao was on par with Cythonna, as shown in Superman the last god of krypton:

http://i.imgur.com/5V0bW32.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CbspWVB.jpg

...and she definitely isn't universal level. Considering the scene you posted was generated by Superman's Kryptonian computer system, by your logic I could just as easily call it hyperbole as it is only Krypton's side of the story... But that's just silly. As you know, the most recent information regarding a specific character is the most canon/reliable--and the scene I posted of Rao is over a decade MORE recent than what you posted. With that in mind, remember that all it took was a single issue to retcon Beyonder from an omnipotent being millions of times more powerful than the multiverse combined, into half of a cube being. ie. retcons are as much a part of comics as the paper they're printed on. They happen a lot.

Anywho, one of the passages from the scans I posted states that after Rao created ALL, he split up his infinite power in order to seed the universe with life--essentially depowering himself:
http://imgur.com/l3cZJcT
The scene you posted was obviously from some point in time after Rao had divided his infinite power and seeded the universe with life(as evident by the evolved humanoid lifeforms present in those scans.) So there is that.

Anyway, per the most recent evidence Rao=Krypton's version of THE God.

Also, Superman looks really gay in Operator's scans.

Originally posted by Galan007
Considering the scene you posted was generated by Superman's Kryptonian computer system, by your logic I could just as easily call it hyperbole as it is only Krypton's side of the story...


Except that we know in Cythonna's case, it's true, she said it herself in the issue:

http://i.imgur.com/AO4xYhz.jpg?1

"the sun god who cast me into the void, Rao himself"

This isn't a myth, if you ask me.

Rao creating the whole universe on the other hand, is, imo. It's considered as such. Rao isn't established as a creator in DC, just like in say, wonder woman v2 #139 has a greek creation myth:

http://i.imgur.com/whmkYbE.jpg

There are other creation myths based on mythologies (as im sure you know), featured on panel. And it's meant only to be isolated in that one story. Just like Rao's creation story, it doesn't go beyond that one story.

Originally posted by Galan007

Anywho, one of the passages from the scans I posted states that after Rao created ALL, he split up his infinite power in order to seed the universe with life--essentially depowering himself:
http://imgur.com/l3cZJcT
The scene you posted was obviously from some point in time after Rao had divided his infinite power and seeded the universe with life(as evident by the evolved humanoid lifeforms present in those scans.) So there is that.


Fair enough, i missed that.

Originally posted by Galan007

Anyway, per the most recent evidence Rao=Krypton's version of THE God.

Cool. And we both know that in Sandman v2 #5, it was established that any "gods" of some planet like the ones of martians, are in fact, the endless:

http://i.imgur.com/I3J29Eg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6BNqTF0.jpg

Is the the same God Krypotnians worshiped and Kal-El and descended from?

Originally posted by operator616
Except that we know in Cythonna's case, it's true, she said it herself in the issue:

http://i.imgur.com/AO4xYhz.jpg?1

"the sun god who cast me into the void, Rao himself" I was mostly giving you a hard time about that. However, *technically* Rao would have already depowered himself by the time he encountered Cyth. Just saying...

Originally posted by operator616
Rao creating the whole universe on the other hand, is, imo. It's considered as such. Rao isn't established as a creator in DC, just like in say, wonder woman v2 #139 has a greek creation myth:

http://i.imgur.com/whmkYbE.jpg

There are other creation myths based on mythologies (as im sure you know), featured on panel. And it's meant only to be isolated in that one story. Just like Rao's creation story, it doesn't go beyond that one story. Human's see the creator as God, the Kryptonians see him as Rao. Same guy, different name... And yes, most races have a different take on the creator, but it, in all likelihood, is the same fella. I mean, if the Endless appear differently to all races, surely God does as well.

Shame on you for not being accepting of all religions. uhuh

Originally posted by operator616
Cool. And we both know that in Sandman v2 #5, it was established that any "gods" of some planet like the ones of martians, are in fact, the endless:

http://i.imgur.com/I3J29Eg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6BNqTF0.jpg That scene from issue #5(digital/HQ rips of the series are available, btw) was just how the Martians perceived their *dream* god--I know it was the dream god of Mars because of J'onn's line:
"May you guard us in the darkness and on the pathway between waking hours, and protect us in dreams from the flame of your wrath."

So presumably all of the Endless are perceived differently by each civilization(not unlike Galactus) but still embody the same concept within that civilization.

That said, I can't agree that Rao=a member of the Endless, because none of the Endless embody the supreme creator.

Originally posted by Supra
Is the the same God Krypotnians worshiped and Kal-El and descended from? Rao was originally the supreme creator of the universe--Krypton's version of God. After creating the universe, he willingly split up his infinite power(essentially depowering himself into a lesser god) in order to seed the new universe with sentient life.

Yes, Superman is a direct descendant of Rao.

^ Hmm.....perhaps yeah, they are the same being, this reminds me of "the unnameable one" (another name for a supreme being essentially) who is the god behind all gods referenced in Martian Manhunter v1 #4:

http://i.imgur.com/dtNtou6.jpg?1

I mean, we also know that Rao literally translates to "The One God", so you think that Rao is actually the One true God (as in The Presence) just given another name? ...... i dunno, personally id have my doubts (due to some evidence pointing otherwise), but it's possible, i guess.

Regarding the endless; yeah, MM sees Dream of the endless as Lord L'Zoril, so that means that other gods must ultimately be the endless as well.

Originally posted by operator616
I mean, we also know that Rao literally translates to "The One God",

To clarify: This was actually mentioned (im not making this up), one example in the Krypton Glossary, in Krypton Chronicles #2:

http://i.imgur.com/DsHzNGa.jpg?1

I think think all races and civilizations have their own twists on what God is and/or how the universe came into being. Ultimately, however, I do believe it is the same truly omnipotent entity.

Example: the humans' dream god is Morpheus/Sandman. The Martians' dream god is Lord L'Zoril. These different races obviously have an entirely different take on the dream god, but that doesn't change the overall concept he embodies or the role he plays. He is still Dream no matter what face he wears or story he partakes in.

^ Yeah, but i can say for instance, there's a hindu creation myth which is associated with Brahma (portrayed on panel), yet, Brahma himself has humiliating performances pre and post crisis (which are only a few, but existing nonetheless).

I am aware of that scene.

Anyway, I am not saying there isn't some disputatory evidence, but in general, I think most on-panel variations of God(those depicted as the supreme creators of ALL) can be blanketed as the same being--which makes the most sense, imo. After all, the universe didn't have multiple creators--it was ultimately one entity... That entity is simply perceived differently by nearly every race/religion/civilization in existence.

=my take.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Also, Superman looks really gay in Operator's scans.

Originally posted by Galan007
Rao was originally the supreme creator of the universe--Krypton's version of God. After creating the universe, he willingly split up his infinite power(essentially depowering himself into a lesser god) in order to seed the new universe with sentient life.

Yes, Superman is a direct descendant of Rao.

What comic issues have Rao in them, I would like to read them. Is his de powered version of himself Kal-El or are all Kryptonians direct descendant of Rao?

Originally posted by Galan007
I am aware of that scene.

Anyway, I am not saying there isn't some disputatory evidence, but in general, I think most on-panel variations of God(those depicted as the supreme creators of ALL) can be blanketed as the same being--which makes the most sense, imo. After all, the universe didn't have multiple creators--it was ultimately one entity... That entity is simply perceived differently by nearly every race/religion/civilization in existence.

=my take.
Which is not equal to the comics' take.

Your secularist opinions would actually have some value added to them were it even slightly alluded to that Rao is, in any way whatsoever, connected to the Presence or the Source, who have far more claim to being the Supreme Being of DC than localized pantheon gods like Rao.

No offense, but from where I stand, you're just reaching imo.

Originally posted by operator616
Regarding the endless; yeah, MM sees Dream of the endless as Lord L'Zoril, so that means that other gods must ultimately be the endless as well.
That's not possible since Lucifer confirmed that Izanami was a separate entity from Dream, and within Carey's stories, even a clandestine competitor of his when it came to harvesting people's dreams.

Originally posted by operator616
Those action comics scans may as well be hyperbole though. It's only Krypton's side of the story.

Rao was on par with Cythonna, as shown in Superman the last god of krypton:

http://i.imgur.com/5V0bW32.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CbspWVB.jpg

...and she definitely isn't universal level.

Damn I need to go get these comics, they look sick.

Originally posted by operator616
^ Hmm.....perhaps yeah, they are the same being, this reminds me of "the unnameable one" (another name for a supreme being essentially) who is the god behind all gods referenced in Martian Manhunter v1 #4:

http://i.imgur.com/dtNtou6.jpg?1

I mean, we also know that Rao literally translates to "The One God", so you think that Rao is actually the One true God (as in The Presence) just given another name? ...... i dunno, personally id have my doubts (due to some evidence pointing otherwise), but it's possible, i guess.

Regarding the endless; yeah, MM sees Dream of the endless as Lord L'Zoril, so that means that other gods must ultimately be the endless as well.

Do you have scans of the Unnameable One?

^ No, because it was just a reference, never seen again. That's why he/it is not well-known.

Originally posted by Supra
What comic issues have Rao in them, I would like to read them. Is his de powered version of himself Kal-El or are all Kryptonians direct descendant of Rao?

Galan's scans are from Action Comics #886.

Originally posted by Epicurus
That's not possible since Lucifer confirmed that Izanami was a separate entity from Dream, and within Carey's stories, even a clandestine competitor of his when it came to harvesting people's dreams.

Well yeah, even Rao was shown as a separate entity (as he was shown to be independent) in Endless nights. But don't forget that Gaiman in the Sandman series -- despite establishing that various gods in certain religions are actually the endless, at the beginning of his series (issue #5) -- had the endless interacting with various pantheon deities several times, later on (meaning they are independent). So what does that tell us? (i honestly don't know what to make of this).

Originally posted by operator616
Well yeah, even Rao was shown as a separate entity (as he was shown to be independent) in Endless nights. But don't forget that Gaiman in the Sandman series -- despite establishing that various gods in certain religions are actually the endless, at the beginning of his series (issue #5) -- had the endless interacting with various pantheon deities several times, later on (meaning they are independent). So what does that tell us? (i honestly don't know what to make of this).
That subjective secularism shouldn't be taken at face value, especially within the context of a comic book. You and Galan want to rely on a complicated interpretation of such scenes, be my guests.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Which is not equal to the comics' take.

Your secularist opinions would actually have some value added to them were it even slightly alluded to that Rao is, in any way whatsoever, connected to the Presence or the Source, who have far more claim to being the Supreme Being of DC than localized pantheon gods like Rao.

No offense, but from where I stand, you're just reaching imo. Imo, the fact that Kryptonians credit Rao with creating the DCU(a task normally attributed to God/The Presence) lends to the notion that Rao is basically how the Kryptonians perceived God. Much like the Endless, God isn't limited to a singular form and is perceived differently by all--I believe Rao is proof of this. However, I am in no way/shape/form trying to sell my opinion as fact. I am just trying to connect the proverbial dots(the 'dots' being multiple omnipotent creators.)

...But something tells me you'll just keep up with this random faux-intellectual banter no matter what I say(that's usually how 'debates' with you go), so I will indulge you no further beyond this. You can have the last word if you must.