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Who wins?

She-Hulk.

Sure Spider-man humiliated Titania (a woman in She-Hulk's class strength wise) but Titania is a mere brawler; no skill whatsoever. She Hulk actually has some H2H training.

She-Hulk.

Jennifer, easily.

http://imageshack.us/a/img22/6079/31267818.jpg

Spider-Man would find away imo

Shulkie wins.

I'm in SheHulks camp if she manages to grab Spider-man.

Spidey wins if he's pissed
and stalemates if not.

I'm actually leaning towards Spidey here. Too much speed to compensate for. I'm not betting the house on this though. Jen is a tough customer.

Seriously, the more I think about, the more i'm split.

She Hulk wins this.

Yes, Spiderman is faster.....but he can't hurt her. Even when pissed off.

^Well, he did bus-throw-KO the Hulk once upon a time.

Yeah, it happened.

Spider-Man can win if he is willing to get dirty with her

spidey isn't taking this one..... given a city environment he MIGHT be able to wear her down for a couple by dropping stuff, electrocuting her, keeping distance and using range. in a dome? he's f'd.

Spider-man in New York City wins if we're talking about Otto.

Spider-man in New York City has a chance of winning if we're talking Parker, but stalemate is likeliest,
and Pete is not absolutely adverse to running away if no innocents besides himself are being threatened.

She-Hulk wins in a featureless environment.
You're handicapping Spidey if you take him out of his relatively specialized urban niche.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
She Hulk wins this.

Yes, Spiderman is faster.....but he can't hurt her. Even when pissed off. feats says otherwise

Oh you wanna debate feats? Let's dance.

Spider-Man wins. Too smart, too fast for She Hulk. Quite strong too, by the way.

http://www.comicvine.com/the-spectacular-spider-man-168/4000-65562/

Too bad I don't have the actual "fight" where he casually punched her across the room.

But but but... She Hulk is stronger !!!

Yeah, so are most of Spider-Mans enemies. Like he cares.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oh you wanna debate feats? Let's dance. tbh if you and h1 want to debate whether he can hurt someone of Shulkie's level using feats.. I think I can post a feat or two (dozen).

Far stronger. Far more durable. Better hf.

Rhino is more durable than Jen

Hell the Hulk is more durable than Jen huhu

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Far stronger. Far more durable. Better hf.
Lousy fighter, not half as smart as Spider-Man, way less experience, relies too much on her strength, very debatable if she can break free from his webbing, too slow, short ranged fighter and so on...

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Rhino is more durable than Jen

He's also the master of both mystic and martial arts, remember.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
Lousy fighter, not half as smart as Spider-Man, way less experience, relies too much on her strength, very debatable if she can break free from his webbing, too slow, short ranged fighter and so on... also her very large breasts throw her off balance every time she throws a punch.

Spider-man has full advantage of his speed and brains. How this should play out in any kind of open area is Spider-man dodging her shots all day, work up her frustration, and have her play right into his plan outsmarting her.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
Lousy fighter, not half as smart as Spider-Man, way less experience, relies too much on her strength, very debatable if she can break free from his webbing, too slow, short ranged fighter and so on...

Trained by Gamora.

She's pretty smart for a woman, smarter than Parker in some areas.

It'd be hard to find a character with greater experience than SM considering the amount of his appearances and how early he appeared.

Not too much, she uses her brain too.

Why would she have any trouble with the webbing...?

Ground pounds... she should be able to thunderclap, too.

I assume he's referring to the pis juggernaut feat

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW


She's pretty smart for a woman

I bet it killed you to type those words out

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

She's pretty smart for a woman


Because it held/slowed down everyone from Cage to Blob to Ms. Marvel to classic Juggernaut. And SpOck made it even stronger.

Originally posted by JayDaDon
I bet it killed you to type those words out

It did.

Originally posted by SamZED
Because it held/slowed down everyone from Cage to Blob to Ms. Marvel to classic Juggernaut. And SpOck made it even stronger.

http://i57.tinypic.com/2dtc7zq.gif

Going with She-Hulk.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oh you wanna debate feats? Let's dance. why debate feats when it's common comic book knowledge?
Spidey has many feats of hurting beings on she hulks level and above, from Hulk, to Thor, to Namor,... . He has many strength feats above 50 tons and even 100 tons.
He's not as strong as her but
It's asinine to assume he can't hurt she Hulk because of a low showing that happened a long time ago. A showing which contradicts a majority of Spideys feats.

Spideys speed, agility, and SS prevents she hulk from hitting him.
His webbing will slow her down even greater. And please let's not let him get pissed.

The writer of AU said She-Hulk is as powerful as Thor.
Hercules droped about 20 cars on Spider-man and ended the debate about these fights...
however that Spider-man does seem to have the Griffin's number and Rhino's.
I still think She-Hulk owns him.

Originally posted by Wonder Man
The writer of AU said She-Hulk is as powerful as Thor.
Hercules droped about 20 cars on Spider-man and ended the debate about these fights...
however that Spider-man does seem to have the Griffin's number and Rhino's.
I still think She-Hulk owns him.

By the writer of AU saying that renders his credibility null and void.
Thor is more powerful than Savage Hulk and Savage Hulk is more powerful than She-Hulk.

She-Hulk wouldn't be able to tag Spidey (it would be almost impossible). The speed difference is too great, not to mention the pre-cog SS that warns Spidey BEFORE the attack is thrown. Spidey has webbing to slow and blind. Enabling him far more hits on She-Hulk until he wears her out.

This is a serious Spidey of course whose strength level is far above 15tons. If we are using a 15ton Spidey then I would say a stalemate or She Hulk wins (depending on the time limit of the match).

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/96884/2114808-thorvsshehulk21hm.jpg

Typical Janithor.

This should be named the battle of the Fantastic Four rejects.

Originally posted by Wonder Man
The writer of AU said She-Hulk is as powerful as Thor.
Hercules droped about 20 cars on Spider-man and ended the debate about these fights...
.

1. No. She Hulk isn't anywhere near as....just no.

2. One showing does not erase everything else Spider-man has done. I'm convinced Stiltman wrote that book

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/96884/2114808-thorvsshehulk21hm.jpg
What is that supposed to mean ? Thor was brainwashed back then, and even if he wasn't, I still don't see the big deal.

Merely messing with h1.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
Lousy fighter, not half as smart as Spider-Man, way less experience, relies too much on her strength, very debatable if she can break free from his webbing, too slow, short ranged fighter and so on...
Debatable, debatable, not true, partially true, completely untrue, somewhat true(though with how the Hulk's superspeed has been portrayed in recent times, I wouldn't put it past Shulkie to be fast as well), not true and so on...

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
http://www.comicvine.com/the-spectacular-spider-man-168/4000-65562/

Too bad I don't have the actual "fight" where he casually punched her across the room.

But but but... She Hulk is stronger !!!

Yeah, so are most of Spider-Mans enemies. Like he cares.
Using cover pages as "proof" is sure a new debating tactic I've seen in recent times. Tell me, is it a patented KMC trick, or just something you made up along the way?

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
What is that supposed to mean ? Thor was brainwashed back then, and even if he wasn't, I still don't see the big deal.
The deal is you suddenly having issues with actual feats for her being posted even while using cover pages as "proof" of Spider-Man beating her.

Anyways, let's overlook cover page based evidence for a while and focus on actual feats for a change, shall we:
http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q487/TheGodKiller666/spidey_vs_shulkie01_zps83f7d9e9.jpg
http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q487/TheGodKiller666/spidey_vs_shulkie02_zps432a88c6.jpg
http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q487/TheGodKiller666/spidey_vs_shulkie03_zps78e9a7cc.jpg
http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q487/TheGodKiller666/spidey_vs_shulkie04_zpsde160be0.jpg

Originally posted by Epicurus
Debatable, debatable, not true, partially true, completely untrue, somewhat true(though with how the Hulk's superspeed has been portrayed in recent times, I wouldn't put it past Shulkie to be fast as well), not true and so on... I agree that the rest is debatable but... not half as smart as Spider-man part.. when did SH get a genius level intellect?
I'd also like to point out that the webbing did slow her down and SM has a bag of feats of hurting people of her strength class and durability even if it wasn't shown to be the case in that particular fight that is decades old anyway.

Originally posted by SamZED
I agree that the rest is debatable but... not half as smart as Spider-man part.. when did SH get a genius level intellect?
I'd also like to point out that the webbing did slow her down and SM has a bag of feats of hurting people of her strength class and durability even if it wasn't shown to be the case in that particular fight that is decades old anyway.
In the very scans I posted, she ripped through it twice. Shulkie may not have Spidey's level of technical expertise, but let's not think that smarts are limited to only superscience intellect. Or are you forgetting who suggested that Spidey prosecute Jameson for libel in court? Spider-Man has a bag of feats of hurting people in her weight-class? Well, so does She-Hulk, and they're far more numerous since this is her weight class we're talking about. That fight is one of the few instances of these characters going head to head in canon. I don't see how it being "decades old" somehow invalidates the feat.

Originally posted by Epicurus
In the very scans I posted, she ripped through it twice. Shulkie may not have Spidey's level of technical expertise, but let's not think that smarts are limited to only superscience intellect. Or are you forgetting who suggested that Spidey prosecute Jameson for libel in court? Spider-Man has a bag of feats of hurting people in her weight-class? Well, so does She-Hulk, and they're far more numerous since this is her weight class we're talking about. That fight is one of the few instances of these characters going head to head in canon. I don't see how it being "decades old" somehow invalidates the feat. I'd be surprised if she didn't have feats of hurting chars of her weight class but that's not the point, the argument was whether he can hurt her and based on his feats he can. Time matters because Spider-man has gotten stronger and received lots of MA training. And even by that time's standards that can be argued to be a not-a-very-good showing for Spider-man, more of an exception than the rule.
I'm not arguing the webbing can immobilize her completely and permanently but can definitely slow her down. Depends on the amount really and the fight doesn't contradict it. It's gotten stronger as well btw.
I'm not talking about her lawyer degree, but overall smarts. For example Wolverine is brilliant in his own field when it comes to tracking skills etc but that's not enough to say that he's for example 1/5th as smart as Reed Richards. Someone half as smart as Spider-man in RL would still be the smartest person on the planet.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/96884/2114808-thorvsshehulk21hm.jpg "why debate comics, tho"

Originally posted by SamZED
I'd be surprised if she didn't have feats of hurting chars of her weight class but that's not the point, the argument was whether he can hurt her and based on his feats he can. Time matters because Spider-man has gotten stronger and received lots of MA training. And even by that time's standards that can be argued to be a not-a-very-good showing for Spider-man, more of an exception than the rule.
I'm not arguing the webbing can immobilize her completely and permanently but can definitely slow her down. Depends on the amount really and the fight doesn't contradict it. It's gotten stronger as well btw.
I'm not talking about her lawyer degree, but overall smarts. For example Wolverine is brilliant in his own field when it comes to tracking skills etc but that's not enough to say that he's for example 1/5th as smart as Reed Richards. Someone half as smart as Spider-man in RL would still be the smartest person on the planet.
She-Hulk got an official strength boost as well. Along with considerable h2h training(iirc, Cap himself has trained her).
Lol, so him being on the receiving end of a fight against an opponent vastly more durable, stronger and with a better hf than him is a bad showing for him? What delusional, pixie dust land do you live in?
My argument was largely pointed at Kurdy's ridiculous idea that it's debatable whether she could even break out of it, when we've seen a weaker incarnation of Shulkie do it.
Lol, and again I ask how exactly is his superior technical knowledge proof of him being smarter? Have you not watched Breaking Bad? She-Hulk convinced the Living F*cking Tribunal himself to spare the 616-universe when the latter was weighing its worthiness against the Ultimateverse. Using nothing but her argumentative skills. She isn't the sexualized moron from the Byrne era anymore. She's evolved during the last couple decades.

Originally posted by h1a8
why debate feats when it's common comic book knowledge?
Spidey has many feats of hurting beings on she hulks level and above, from Hulk, to Thor, to Namor,... . He has many strength feats above 50 tons and even 100 tons.
He's not as strong as her but
It's asinine to assume he can't hurt she Hulk because of a low showing that happened a long time ago. A showing which contradicts a majority of Spideys feats.

She-Hulk has many feats of breaking the 4th wall.

In canon comics.

It's pretty common comic book knowledge.

Originally posted by Epicurus
In the very scans I posted, she ripped through it twice. Shulkie may not have Spidey's level of technical expertise, but let's not think that smarts are limited to only superscience intellect. Or are you forgetting who suggested that Spidey prosecute Jameson for libel in court? Spider-Man has a bag of feats of hurting people in her weight-class? Well, so does She-Hulk, and they're far more numerous since this is her weight class we're talking about. That fight is one of the few instances of these characters going head to head in canon. I don't see how it being "decades old" somehow invalidates the feat.

It invalidates it because more recent showings show the opposite, that Spidey can indeed harm characters in her league (without hurting himself). Look how he has hit has hit Thor and knocked Namor around. Recent showings >>> old showings if both are have similar number of occurrences.

Even using that scene. Spidey could easily tire She-Hulk out with the webbing. He can get free hits on her while she is stuck in the webbing.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
She-Hulk has many feats of breaking the 4th wall.

In canon comics.

It's pretty common comic book knowledge.

What is the 4th wall?

As a great man once said, "Boards don't hit back."
Of course she can serious hurt Spidey. No one is arguing against that.
I'm saying she would have a nearly impossible time hitting him, especially with the speed difference, webbing, agility difference, and Spidey's pre cog SS. He can possibly wear her out to pull off a win.

Originally posted by h1a8
It invalidates it because more recent showings show the opposite, that Spidey can indeed harm characters in her league (without hurting himself). Look how he has hit has hit Thor and knocked Namor around. Recent showings >>> old showings if both are have similar number of occurrences.

Even using that scene. Spidey could easily tire She-Hulk out with the webbing. He can get free hits on her while she is stuck in the webbing.
facepalm

Has anyone said "thunderclap"? Anyone? Jesus.

In a forum setting, with standard stips, Spidey can't really win. In a comic, many things are possible, and Jen would at least work for it mightily.

Jen for the maj.

There are a lot of guys spidey fights who could win via thunderclap but really, how often do these guys utilize it? It would be very hard to thunderclap when you're covered in webbing.

P.s. The last guy who incapacitated Spidey with a thunder clap was an amped Colossus(a lot stronger than she hulk with a deafening metallic ring to boot) so I'm not so sure its an auto win for her anyway.

Originally posted by h1a8
What is the 4th wall?

As a great man once said, "Boards don't hit back."
Of course she can serious hurt Spidey. No one is arguing against that.
I'm saying she would have a nearly impossible time hitting him, especially with the speed difference, webbing, agility difference, and Spidey's pre cog SS. He can possibly wear her out to pull off a win.

Look it up.

Originally posted by JayDaDon
P.s. The last guy who incapacitated Spidey with a thunder clap was an amped Colossus(a lot stronger than she hulk with a deafening metallic ring to boot) so I'm not so sure its an auto win for her anyway.
Lol. Still, if we are to refer PIS showings from the sh1tfest known as AvX, one of Colossus' peers was getting manhandled by Ben Grimm. Not to mention that She-Hulk has punched out Mistress Death herself.

So yeah, Shulkie uses one of dem Abstract-busting punches to erase Spidey from existence.

Originally posted by Epicurus
She-Hulk got an official strength boost as well. Along with considerable h2h training(iirc, Cap himself has trained her).
Lol, so him being on the receiving end of a fight against an opponent vastly more durable, stronger and with a better hf than him is a bad showing for him? What delusional, pixie dust land do you live in?
My argument was largely pointed at Kurdy's ridiculous idea that it's debatable whether she could even break out of it, when we've seen a weaker incarnation of Shulkie do it.
Lol, and again I ask how exactly is his superior technical knowledge proof of him being smarter? Have you not watched Breaking Bad? She-Hulk convinced the Living F*cking Tribunal himself to spare the 616-universe when the latter was weighing its worthiness against the Ultimateverse. Using nothing but her argumentative skills. She isn't the sexualized moron from the Byrne era anymore. She's evolved during the last couple decades. No need to get all hostile and defensive, that's not what I meant when I talked about bad showing, nothing wrong with him having a hard time with her. Once again I was specifically referring to his ability to hurt her because that's the point that was discussed when I got into the debate. That's all I was saying. And I do believe he can.
I guess we have different understanding of the word "smart". Im not questioning her debating skills either but as far as "general smarts" goes being "half as smart as Spider-man" is a hugeass compliment and I dont belive that she is, does not make her a morron.
I agree she can break out, only saying that a large amount of it can slow her down.

Originally posted by SamZED
No need to get all hostile and defensive, that's not what I meant when I talked about bad showing, nothing wrong with him having a hard time with her. Once again I was specifically referring to his ability to hurt her because that's the point that was discussed when I got into the debate. That's all I was saying. And I do believe he can.

I guess we have different understanding of the word "smart". Im not questioning her debating skills either but as far as "general smarts" goes being "half as smart as Spider-man" is a hugeass compliment and I dont belive that she is, does not make her a morron.

I agree she can break out, only saying that a large amount of it can slow her down.
Then point out exactly what did you mean when claiming that it was a bad showing for him.

Spider-Man having a higher IQ then her does not translate to him being smarter than her. I doubt that one can even properly quantify how smart people are in general.

So you concede that trapping her with webbing is an ineffective tactic? Good.

Shulkie wins 10/10.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Then point out exactly what did you mean when claiming that it was a bad showing for him.

Spider-Man having a higher IQ then her does not translate to him being smarter than her. I doubt that one can even properly quantify how smart people are in general.

So you concede that trapping her with webbing is an ineffective tactic? Good.

Shulkie wins 10/10.
Thought I did in the previous post. Him hurting his hand on her face. Thats not consistent with his showings against characters of her class.

Fair enough. I guess it depends on ones definition of smarts. Imo in this context its about overall knowledge. If you ever watched Big Bang Theory... Someone like Sheldon is clearly smarter than say Penny. At the same time he lacks understanding of basic things, pop culture. In that context she could be consired smarter, but in general can not compete.

Now i never said thar. Slowing down her with webbing just gives Spider-man more opportunities for a speedblitz.

I would give her the majority but 10/10? Heck no.

Problem is, if we allow obvious PIS moments of Spiderman hurting people way above his weight class - which, let's face it, are PIS moments - then She-Hulk gets her numerous PIS moments as well of hurting people way above her weight class. Such as being tactical and clever enough to change the Living Tribunal's mind, punching Mistress Death out etc.

The double standards here are quite funny. On the one hand, Spidey, who holds his own against people he, as a Class 20, has no business fighting.....against She Hulk, who, as a Class 100, holds her own against people she has no business fighting.

But are we really going to compare Spider-man hurting class 90-100 bricks to She-Hulk hurting Lady Death? The gap between the two showings is ridiculously huge. On one hand it's Spider-man who consistently performs class 20+ feats when under stress and is consistently shown to punch hard enough for low class 100 to feel it.. and on the other hand a feat that would normally require a sky-father + level being. That is not the same. In fact Spider-man hurting people above his weight class is consistent enough to not be concidered PIS. Heck even decades old bio of his states that when he's stressed his strength goes from class 10 to an "uncharted area" and he lives up to it. And thats me excluding his obvious PIS showings.

Originally posted by SamZED
But are we really going to compare Spider-man hurting class 90-100 bricks to She-Hulk hurting Lady Death? The gap between the two showings is ridiculously huge. On one hand it's Spider-man who consistently performs class 20+ feats when under stress and is consistently shown to punch hard enough for low class 100 to feel it.. and on the other hand a feat that would normally require a sky-father + level being. That is not the same. In fact Spider-man hurting people above his weight class is consistent enough to not be concidered PIS. Heck even decades old bio of his states that when he's stressed his strength goes from class 10 to an "uncharted area" and he lives up to it. And thats me excluding his obvious PIS showings.

Same with She-Hulk, when she does things like:

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff191/Galan_photos/shehulk1.jpg

She can do Loboesque Loony Toons feats - and has done so pretty consistently in canon comics (so not just an isolated case here and there, like the Joker breaking the 4th wall and talking to the reader, or Emma Frost answering letters pages, for example). She is a humorous character who has done things so often, it's not PIS.

I mean, if I did a Squirrel Girl thread, SG's feats and showings are all applicable, right? Why not She-Hulk?

And don't get me started on the dynamic strength thing lol. This IS a Hulk we are talking about, after all...

Originally posted by Epicurus
Lol. Still, if we are to refer PIS showings from the sh1tfest known as AvX, one of Colossus' peers was getting manhandled by Ben Grimm. Not to mention that She-Hulk has punched out Mistress Death herself.

So yeah, Shulkie uses one of dem Abstract-busting punches to erase Spidey from existence.

How is it PIS if spidey does this stuff all. THE. TIME?

Anyway, all She hulk really has is strength, doesn't mean much if she can't hit him.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Same with She-Hulk, when she does things like:

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff191/Galan_photos/shehulk1.jpg

Madcap's HF is really uber to recover from something like that

Originally posted by JayDaDon
How is it PIS if spidey does this stuff all. THE. TIME?

TBF, so did Shulkie in her comics.

And if we take the sum entirety of Spidey's comics, and his 'hurting Namor' level punches, they would form a small %age of his performance levels.

He doesn't do this every week, and nor does Shulkie every week. Problem is, Spiderman has waaaaay more showings than her.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Madcap's HF is really uber to recover from something like that

Shulkie had the good manners to restore him!!!!

If we aren't talking about 4th wall garbage, then I remember her doing well against quite a few bruisers. But the point is, based on his showings, Spidey can definitely hurt Shulkie with his punches.

She-Hulk should win this fight 9/10.
See Incredible Hercules to see what 25 cars on Spider-man's head will do. It will kill him.

How the hell are they gonna catch him to do that? Right, they won't. Anyone in Hercules/She hulk's range hitting Spider-man with even one car is PIS of the highest order.

Right.

So we are just ignoring her on-panel feats in a canon comic then.....

And then using the argument that 'Spiderman does it so many times, its usable!'?

Originally posted by JayDaDon
How is it PIS if spidey does this stuff all. THE. TIME?
Spider-Man goes about tanking punishment from trans tier characters all the time? What crack are you on?

Originally posted by SamZED
Thought I did in the previous post. Him hurting his hand on her face. Thats not consistent with his showings against characters of her class.

Fair enough. I guess it depends on ones definition of smarts. Imo in this context its about overall knowledge. If you ever watched Big Bang Theory... Someone like Sheldon is clearly smarter than say Penny. At the same time he lacks understanding of basic things, pop culture. In that context she could be consired smarter, but in general can not compete.

Now i never said thar. Slowing down her with webbing just gives Spider-man more opportunities for a speedblitz.

I would give her the majority but 10/10? Heck no.
If you had, then we wouldn't be debating the point at hand. Lol, so indirect comparisons take precedence over how he would fare in a physical matchup against over direct evidence showcasing him being incapable of taking her down? What sort of bullsh1t logic is that?

Gus Fring was smarter than Walter White in Breaking Bad. And Gus wasn't one tenth the technical expert which Walt was.

Yes you did. No it wouldn't. It'll just prolong the beating he'll inevitably receive once Shulkie gets her hands on him.

That's because you're a spider-fanboy.

Seriously, the spider-wankery on full display in this thread is outright appalling. The mental gymnastics, denial of evidence, the blatant hypocrisy of citing PIS feats, usage of cover pages as "proof" etc is every bit as bad as the crap which people like Wolverine fanboys pull off from time to time.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

She's pretty smart for a woman

http://i30.tinypic.com/2e2051h.jpg

Originally posted by Epicurus
one of Colossus' peers was getting manhandled by Ben Grimm.

That sounds about right.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Spider-Man goes about tanking punishment from trans tier characters all the time? What crack are you on?

It doesn't matter the tier. Thanks for dodging the point completely. You know I thats not what I was talking about. Taking on guys out of his weight class is what Spidey has done his whole history. Can't believe I have to spell it out.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Seriously, the spider-wankery on full display in this thread is outright appalling. The mental gymnastics, denial of evidence, the blatant hypocrisy of citing PIS feats, usage of cover pages as "proof" etc is every bit as bad as the crap which people like Wolverine fanboys pull off from time to time.

Funny because I haven't heard one feasible way She-hulk would win outside of fourth wall shenanigans.

Originally posted by JayDaDon
There are a lot of guys spidey fights who could win via thunderclap but really, how often do these guys utilize it? It would be very hard to thunderclap when you're covered in webbing.

P.s. The last guy who incapacitated Spidey with a thunder clap was an amped Colossus(a lot stronger than she hulk with a deafening metallic ring to boot) so I'm not so sure its an auto win for her anyway.

T-claps have a good history against Spidey. And this is a forum setting, where the "how often...?" question becomes irrelevant. Have they? Yes? Then they do so here for a clear win.

Originally posted by leonidas
http://i30.tinypic.com/2e2051h.jpg

Originally posted by Epicurus
Seriously, the spider-wankery on full display in this thread is outright appalling. The mental gymnastics, denial of evidence, the blatant hypocrisy of citing PIS feats, usage of cover pages as "proof" etc is every bit as bad as the crap which people like Wolverine fanboys pull off from time to time.
While I agree that using cover pages as proof is stupid as hell, that scene did happen exactly like that in the comic.

Originally posted by Digi
T-claps have a good history against Spidey. And this is a forum setting, where the "how often...?" question becomes irrelevant. Have they? Yes? Then they do so here for a clear win.





Slippery slope. Does that mean Thor gets to soul suck and Surfer gets to put singularities in people every match? If it's something that's not really in character, then it can be argued it probably won't happen.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Problem is, if we allow obvious PIS moments of Spiderman hurting people way above his weight class - which, let's face it, are PIS moments - then She-Hulk gets her numerous PIS moments as well of hurting people way above her weight class. Such as being tactical and clever enough to change the Living Tribunal's mind, punching Mistress Death out etc.

The double standards here are quite funny. On the one hand, Spidey, who holds his own against people he, as a Class 20, has no business fighting.....against She Hulk, who, as a Class 100, holds her own against people she has no business fighting. I would say that Shulkie is about 5x stronger than Spidey considering their feats. It's realistic to hurt beings above your weight class. A kid can really hurt a man that's 5x stronger. It's also realistic in comics too. Batman, daredevil, Captain America, Thing, Rhino, Aquaman, Black Panther, etc have all hurt beings more than 5x stronger.

Also Spidey has plenty of feats against objects that are above 50 tons that back up the times he hurt beings stronger than him. So I don't accept those moments as PIS moments for him.

Originally posted by JayDaDon
Slippery slope. Does that mean Thor gets to soul suck and Surfer gets to put singularities in people every match? If it's something that's not really in character, then it can be argued it probably won't happen.

It's only a slippery slope if you allow yourself to fall to more absurd positions. Thor soul sucking is NOT the same as Jen t-clapping. Would you disagree?

If its a tactic as commonly used as lets say, spidey's webs or even close, then maybe it's viable. I haven't seen any class 70 to 80 characters hurt spidey with a thunderclap but maybe it's happened, I can't recall.

Originally posted by JayDaDon
If its a tactic as commonly used as lets say, spidey's webs or even close, then maybe it's viable. I haven't seen any class 70 to 80 characters hurt spidey with a thunderclap but maybe it's happened, I can't recall.

Thing has done it, low-level incarnations of the Hulk have done it. I think Juggernaut has as well. Hurting him isn't the issue. Messing with his equilibrium is. It dazes him, which then gives the brick a chance to lay into Pete.

Spidey uses his webs all the damn time. Surely the threshold for using an ability in a forum match is lower, yes?

http://s30.photobucket.com/user/Hulk3389/media/shockwavethunderclap125sj.jpg.html

Originally posted by Digi
Thing has done it, low-level incarnations of the Hulk have done it. I think Juggernaut has as well. Hurting him isn't the issue. Messing with his equilibrium is. It dazes him, which then gives the brick a chance to lay into Pete.

Spidey uses his webs all the damn time. Surely the threshold for using an ability in a forum match is lower, yes? Grey Hulk hit him with a thunder clap, then followed it up with a haymaker in Incredible Hulk 349. Spider-man was back in the fight in literally the very next panel looking no worse for wear. I don't think a t clap is winning it for She Hulk.

Edit: Carver, Hulk was amped in that scene. I believe he had some sort of gamma virus or something.

He wasn't amped.

I'm with Carver here. That was the Hulk feat I was referencing. And it wasn't one of his more powerful incarnations.

Depends on how strong She-Hulk is. Some incarnations, Spider-Man would hurt his own hands punching, others he could probably wear down with an all-out assault.

Normally, I'd take Jen as she's a lot stronger and has ways to counter the speed. But let's not count Peter out, he can be crazy strong under some writers and has a nice agility/speed advantage.

Originally posted by carver9
He wasn't amped.
Both Spider-man and Doc Samson say that he is "even stronger than before." Later in the fight Spider-man says, "He may sound like the old Hulk, but he's even tougher."
Regardless of whether he was amped, he's still going to be hitting harder than Shulkie. The thunder clap she could accomplish would be far closer in magnitude to the one Grey Hulk did that Spider-man took like a pro.

Originally posted by Digi
Thing has done it, low-level incarnations of the Hulk have done it. I think Juggernaut has as well. Hurting him isn't the issue. Messing with his equilibrium is. It dazes him, which then gives the brick a chance to lay into Pete.

Spidey uses his webs all the damn time. Surely the threshold for using an ability in a forum match is lower, yes?

Which is why I said or anywhere near.

Originally posted by JayDaDon
Funny because I haven't heard one feasible way She-hulk would win outside of fourth wall shenanigans.
Apart from actual on-panel feats posted 2 pages prior of one of the few instances in comics where these characters have gone toe-to-toe. Or her feats of beating more powerful opponents in general. But all that's ignored in favor of blatant PIS showings where Spider-Man manages to hurt people he should crush his fist trying to punch.

Hypocrisy is hypocrisy. Fanboyish wankery is fanboyish wankery. To pretend that Spider-Man somehow magically transformed into this Squirrel Girlish character whom more powerful opponents simply can't beat in a forum fight is downright disgusting.

Awful.

Originally posted by JayDaDon
It doesn't matter the tier. Thanks for dodging the point completely. You know I thats not what I was talking about. Taking on guys out of his weight class is what Spidey has done his whole history. Can't believe I have to spell it out.
No it absolutely does, since I am referring that Colossus showing from AvX. The very same Colossus who was amped by a portion of the PF along with 4 other X-Men.

So tell me; is it common for Spider-Man to take all-out assaults from trans tier characters.

Originally posted by VeganDiet
While I agree that using cover pages as proof is stupid as hell, that scene did happen exactly like that in the comic.
Funny why nobody has bothered posting the actual feat in question(not that it changes anything, mind you) instead of the cover page of the comic where said feat takes place.

Originally posted by JayDaDon
Which is why I said or anywhere near.

Not riding against you in this particular topic, but to me wanting to get rid of thunderclaps is missing the point of the Vs forums entirely. We're not attempting to mimick comic conditions here, characters fight to the best of their abilities but in character. People use the "in character" condition way to often as a method of handicaping the stronger character to give the underdog a chance, it's not meant to work like that unless the character is a total idiot.

Wait we're not only nerfing 4th wall breakage, but ALSO thunderclaps now?

Jeez. Buncha Hulk haters up in here.

Has anyone .made a convincing argument for peter winning?

Originally posted by Epicurus
Funny why nobody has bothered posting the actual feat in question(not that it changes anything, mind you) instead of the cover page of the comic where said feat takes place. http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r167/VeggieDiet/ScreenShot2014-02-18at90726AM_zps7a82b8bf.png
And why would this not change anything? This, more recent showing, coupled with Spider-man consistently being capable of hitting and hurting people in She Hulk's weight class would seem to contradict the earlier posted showing of Spider-man hurting his hand on her.

Originally posted by VeganDiet
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r167/VeggieDiet/ScreenShot2014-02-18at90726AM_zps7a82b8bf.png
And why would this not change anything? This, more recent showing, coupled with Spider-man consistently being capable of hitting and hurting people in She Hulk's weight class would seem to contradict the earlier posted showing of Spider-man hurting his hand on her.

Suckershot; plus, it's hardly like he actually hurt her....

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Suckershot; plus, it's hardly like he actually hurt her.... Yeah, I know that I definitely make that face and grunt loudly in pain when things don't hurt me.

Originally posted by VeganDiet
Yeah, I know that I definitely make that face and grunt loudly in pain when things don't hurt me.

Do you then continue talking even though you're impacting a hard surface so hard it breaks the machinery?

Or do you clutch your back/sides/whatever and exclaim how much it hurts?

I mean, when I stub my toe against the table leg, I grunt and start cursing for a minute afterwards. I'm not able to chat normally without hopping on one foot, and punctuating all my sentences with exclamations (Sweet Christmas! Blue Blazes! etc).

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Has anyone .made a convincing argument for peter winning?

Titania, webs, blah blah blah. Probably depends on who you ask.

Originally posted by VeganDiet

http://s144.photobucket.com/user/VeggieDiet/media/ScreenShot2014-02-18at90726AM_zps7a82b8bf.png.html
And why would this not change anything? This, more recent showing, coupled with Spider-man consistently being capable of hitting and hurting people in She Hulk's weight class would seem to contradict the earlier posted showing of Spider-man hurting his hand on her.
Him knocking her a few yards away is proof how exactly of him actually hurting her? As I said before, doesn't change a damn thing.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Him knocking her a few yards away is proof how exactly of him actually hurting her? As I said before, doesn't change a damn thing. Look at the look on her face. Does that look like the face of a lady who's having a grand ole time and is just enjoying the ride to you?
Spider-man is clearly able to cause She-Hulk pain with his punches.

Completely forgot about it being SpOck. Seeing as it's him, he gets taken out because he's significantly worse at dodging.

Originally posted by VeganDiet
Completely forgot about it being SpOck. Seeing as it's him, he gets taken out because he's significantly worse at dodging.

His SpiderSense sucks, plus he does love to monologue.....

Originally posted by Digi
Titania, webs, blah blah blah. Probably depends on who you ask.

Ah I see. I thought I missed something. Well as far as the thread goes Spider-Man really doesn't bring much to the table in terms of putting down bricks. Sure he can hit them and sure he can make em "feel" his punches but a straight up fight he should get demolished. People act as if he's never been tagged before

Originally posted by VeganDiet
Look at the look on her face. Does that look like the face of a lady who's having a grand ole time and is just enjoying the ride to you?
Spider-man is clearly able to cause She-Hulk pain with his punches.
Not a single exclamation of actual pain from her mouth. Lol, a Sal Buscema punch doesn't count as him hurting her.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Not a single exclamation of actual pain from her mouth. Lol, a Sal Buscema punch doesn't count as him hurting her. The page depicts her clearly in pain from the blow. You can quibble about who drew it if you want, but that is just blatantly ignoring what is clear as day.

This thread should really die.

Jennifer stomps.

Originally posted by VeganDiet
The page depicts her clearly in pain from the blow. You can quibble about who drew it if you want, but that is just blatantly ignoring what is clear as day.
No it's not. Not a single exclamation of pain, along with the fact that she was back and running in the very next panel also undermines your theory.

Shulkie wins. Close the thread.

I'll admit She hulk wins via 4th wall shenanigans. There's no defense against that.

Originally posted by Epicurus
No it's not. Not a single exclamation of pain, along with the fact that she was back and running in the very next panel also undermines your theory. You can deny the clear look of pain on her face till the sun goes dark, but anyone looking at that page can tell you that Spider-man's punch clearly hurt her.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Has anyone .made a convincing argument for peter winning?

If she hulk is not messing with the 4th wall, I said peter could just quip as she hulk keeps swinging trying to hit him and gets frustrated while he pours on the webbing. He could wear her out, featureless environment would be trickier, but in somewhere like NYC, he could drop a truck on her when she is worn out/webbed up(worked on the Hulk)

Just a few characters Spider-Man beat up with his bare hands:

- Hyde
- Rhino
- Scorpion
- Iron Man 2020
- Titania
- Absorbing Man
- Firelord ("the forbidden fight..."

Other than that, he had good showings against Morlun, Juggernaut, Hulk (beat him even), Namor, Silver Surfer, Masterson Thor and lots and lots of others.

But for some reason, the slow, short ranged She Hulk will beat him. It's very debatable if she even can touch him when he's wearing a blindfold.

Originally posted by Bentley
Not riding against you in this particular topic, but to me wanting to get rid of thunderclaps is missing the point of the Vs forums entirely. We're not attempting to mimick comic conditions here, characters fight to the best of their abilities but in character. People use the "in character" condition way to often as a method of handicaping the stronger character to give the underdog a chance, it's not meant to work like that unless the character is a total idiot.

Wait, has She-hulk even done thunderclaps? I'm not sure I've even seen her do it. Can we really give her thunderclaps if she hasn't even done it on panel? (Correct me if she actually has done it)

Originally posted by JayDaDon
Wait, has She-hulk even done thunderclaps? I'm not sure I've even seen her do it. Can we really give her thunderclaps if she hasn't even done it on panel? (Correct me if she actually has done it)

It's a good question. In a forum setting, I'd be comfortable allowing her such a routine tactic since she's obviously at the level to be able to pull it off. But if you want to invoke CIS at that point to claim a more balanced match, I wouldn't argue. A couple iterations of her doing it would be sufficient, though, imo.

At the same time, we don't give people abilities that they've never shown on panel. What I am basically saying is, forum member statements doesn't overrule on panel predictions. You can say all day a character can do ect, etc, but you need proof to back it up, and not one showing either.

Originally posted by carver9
At the same time, we don't give people abilities that they've never shown on panel. What I am basically saying is, forum member statements doesn't overrule on panel predictions. You can say all day a character can do ect, etc, but you need proof to back it up, and not one showing either.

Who's we? Speak for yourself. There are always exceptions. I'd be ok agreeing to this post if it weren't unnecessarily absolute in its judgment.

Originally posted by Digi
Who's we? Speak for yourself. There are always exceptions. I'd be ok agreeing to this post if it weren't unnecessarily absolute in its judgment.

Lol...that post wasn't meant entirely for you. I just see it like this. If someone say a character can do etc, I don't see anything wrong with someone asking for proof (not a one time showing either). If the other party can not provide any evidence supporting their claims, then that basically throws whoever argument out of the window, which means, move on to another tactic. That's just my opinion on the matter, but I could be wrong: and my post wasn't directed at you.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
- Hyde

You mean when Hyde literally no-sold every strike from Petey? Or maybe when Daredevil did most of the job for him?

Originally posted by JayDaDon
If she hulk is not messing with the 4th wall, I said peter could just quip as she hulk keeps swinging trying to hit him and gets frustrated while he pours on the webbing. He could wear her out, featureless environment would be trickier, but in somewhere like NYC, he could drop a truck on her when she is worn out/webbed up(worked on the Hulk)


Why do people keep bringing up the Hulk fight? It's not as if he could ever replicate that feat without pis. I mean seriously this is the Hulk we are talking about. Also her stamina is dynamic. Noway is wearing her down for a "truck" k.o. There also needs to be better clarification for the battlefield. The OP didnt state "NYC", and iiirc form rules dont dictate a a predetermined environment. Even though I feel it wont change the outcome of the battle. I do believe it will create a lower percentage for Jen to win (80% chance of victory as opposed to 90). Someone stated previously that this is Otto Spiderman, and that he is signigficantly weaker than Peter Spiderman, that will be another key to She-Hulks' victory. Add on the fact that his SS is noticeably watered-down in comparison it opens up more of a defense for her win.



Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
Just a few characters Spider-Man beat up with his bare hands:

- Hyde
- Rhino
- Scorpion
- Iron Man 2020
- Titania
- Absorbing Man
- Firelord ("the forbidden fight..."

Other than that, he had good showings against Morlun, Juggernaut, Hulk (beat him even), Namor, Silver Surfer, Masterson Thor and lots and lots of others.

But for some reason, the slow, short ranged She Hulk will beat him. It's very debatable if she even can touch him when he's wearing a blindfold.

Hyde i can see
RHINO IS A JOBBER
SCORPION IS A JOBBER
Iron Man 2020...ok in regards to this fight, iirc Arno wasnt a very competent weilder if the armor. He didnt even make it, the kid bought it.
AM/Titania....Titania got speed-blitzed and bfred (sorta) during secret wars by Peter and as a result developed an acute fear of spiders...this hampered her in her future fights with him until she eventually got over it when her boyfriend Creel got involved and she learned to conquer her fear.
*I wont respond to Firelord, its childish

Another famous and more pertinent example, as nobody cares about Kang, is the Flash and his IMP.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
You mean when Hyde literally no-sold every strike from Petey? Or maybe when Daredevil did most of the job for him?
Or maybe he's talking about that time Petey took out Hyde with one shot, while he was drugged and after he'd already fought several other villains.
http://http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r167/VeggieDiet/ScreenShot2014-02-18at25538PM_zpsbd14fb3e.png
http://http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r167/VeggieDiet/ScreenShot2014-02-18at25545PM_zps46c16019.png
And yes the words are backwards in the original story, not just my scans. Presumably because of the drugs.

Edit: Also, Spider-man was having no problem hurting Hyde with his attacks in Amazing Spider-man #433.

Spidey wins this if he's serious. If he's not then it's going to be tough for him.
Pre-cog forewarning senses of attacks before they are thrown, Super flash like speed and reflexes, super agility, webbing that can slow or halt strong beings, intellgence to use the environment to his advantage, ridiculous super strength that can can hurt or sting the shit out of very strong beings, etc.

No

Originally posted by VeganDiet


... the words are backwards in the original story, not just my scans.

Presumably because of the drugs ...






Are you referring to the drugs the artist took or Spider-Man?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider



Are you referring to the drugs the artist took or Spider-Man?
Either? Both? Pick what makes you happiest, man.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Another famous and more pertinent example, as nobody cares about Kang, is the Flash and his IMP.

Originally posted by carver9
I agree to an extent. If I was to go in a thread and say, "Surfer beats Superman 10/10". Lets say if someone ask me "how". What if I was to say "by reading Supermans mind (which is well within his abilities), figuring out the ingredients to make kryptonite, and then turning his body into kryptonite snow for the 10/10 (which is well within his abilities)". Would you all accept it? If you are implying rules like this in one battle, it should be spread across the board.

We know Surfer will not do anything like this 'in character' but we also know it's within his abilities. Debating any other way would make people like Thor and Surfer unbeatable on the forum against any Herald minus themselves. ESPECIALLY Surfer. That's why CIS is beautiful rule.

I think you're misconstructing the argument. Surfer doesn't do complex ploys as the one you describe at all. It's rare that he uses transmutation and mindreading in any offensive capacity, but if he was prone to plot and combine his powers, I'd have no problem in giving him wins by such methods. CIS doesn't mean Surfer will just limit himself to beams, slug it out and "not use speed", it just means he won't be operating in levels of planning that are not within his limits.

Its different to state that Surfer will mindread Doom, use his brain to build a Cosmic Energy Absorber out of nothing and sap his energy back from him if Doom ever steals it, than to say, he'll outspeed Doom and bust the Cosmic Absorb machine. One includes lowballing a character physical status.

Originally posted by h1a8
Spidey wins this if he's serious. If he's not then it's going to be tough for him.
Pre-cog forewarning senses of attacks before they are thrown, Super flash like speed and reflexes, super agility, webbing that can slow or halt strong beings, intellgence to use the environment to his advantage, ridiculous super strength that can can hurt or sting the shit out of very strong beings, etc.

As usual, you didn't pay attention, skipped a few pages and thought that parroting your stance = debating.....

Originally posted by VeganDiet
You can deny the clear look of pain on her face till the sun goes dark, but anyone looking at that page can tell you that Spider-man's punch clearly hurt her.
It didn't. You don't get back up instantly from punches that hurt you.

I will argue those aren't looks of pain, but rather contorted in rage. She's a Hulk after all.

But yeah, page ripping ftw.

Originally posted by Epicurus
It didn't. You don't get back up instantly from punches that hurt you. So, if I were to show you Spider-man taking a blow from the Hulk straight on, and recovering the very next panel, you'd say it didn't hurt him?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I will argue those aren't looks of pain, but rather contorted in rage. She's a Hulk after all.

But yeah, page ripping ftw.
Buscema draws She-Hulk a lot in that arc, and she gets angry quite a few times. Her face never looks like that again, I can tell you that.

My god, I've never seen people be so stubbornly wrong by what's clear on the page.

Originally posted by VeganDiet
So, if I were to show you Spider-man taking a blow from the Hulk straight on, and recovering the very next panel, you'd say it didn't hurt him?
Show me the scene in question, and I'll give you a proper assessment.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Show me the scene in question, and I'll give you a proper assessment. http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r167/VeggieDiet/ScreenShot2014-02-19at85547AM_zps96e8c6f4.png
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r167/VeggieDiet/ScreenShot2014-02-19at85549AM_zps54e59208.png
You'll see here, no exclamation of pain, and is back to cracking jokes and is on the offensive by next panel.

He DOES mention how his head's going to be ringing into next week - which kinda defeats your own point of how he wasn't affected.

And I was kidding about the facial expressions, btw.